Haddad's Forum in COTH

[Ginger]

Any thoughts on Haddad's forum in the most recent COTH? Are her concerns enough to change how the selection trials are handled?

For those who haven't seen it/don't get COTH (you should!), the trials will be in late June in California, horses will have to travel to Aachen in July to train/quarantine, and then they will have to travel to Hong Kong in August. Similar to Canada. Haddad is saying that she wants to represent the US, but that she believes all the travel through the time zones is too much to ask of her horse. She wants the trials at least moved up so there is more time. She has a few other suggestions. Is one rider's concern enough to change this? How about if all of them balked? I don't know, but I agree with her that it will be really tough on the horses.

[friesian4me]

I agree with the fact that she cares about her horses and that things should change. The horse's welfare should come first, always!. I'm surprised that more riders aren't coming forward.

[J-Lu]

Any thoughts on Haddad's forum in the most recent COTH? Are her concerns enough to change how the selection trials are handled?

For those who haven't seen it/don't get COTH (you should!), the trials will be in late June in California, horses will have to travel to Aachen in July to train/quarantine, and then they will have to travel to Hong Kong in August. Similar to Canada. Haddad is saying that she wants to represent the US, but that she believes all the travel through the time zones is too much to ask of her horse. She wants the trials at least moved up so there is more time. She has a few other suggestions. Is one rider's concern enough to change this? How about if all of them balked? I don't know, but I agree with her that it will be really tough on the horses.

I haven't read the article yet (I do get COTH!) but I've heard her talk about it. If I got this right, unlike in previous years where people (such as Lisa Wilcox) could qualify in Europe by earning 2%age points higher (etc.), she'd have to fly to CA for trials, then back to Europe, then to Hong Kong. So would Heather Blitz, who I think is bidding for a spot as well. That's alot of travel and alot of down-time in quarantine! And that's ALOT of money!!!! Not to mention the fact that it is alot of time away from her business and other horses in training.

I know there are reasons for having late selection trials (for example, because they want to chose amongst the fittest and best horses *at the time*, and that the Chefs/judges want to see all of the horses in one place competing against each other), but I do think this causes undue burden on horses and people financing the bid. At LEAST, given the fact that two contenders are in Europe and a couple are on the E. Coast, the selection trials should be held on the east coast. Lastly, there's alot of subjectivity that goes into the team selection...i think it should be more objective.

My two cents.
J.

[Hazelnut]

I read the article. Haddad made very good points from an athletes perspective, for both horse and rider.

[Sabine]

I haven't read the article yet (I do get COTH!) but I've heard her talk about it. If I got this right, unlike in previous years where people (such as Lisa Wilcox) could qualify in Europe by earning 2%age points higher (etc.), she'd have to fly to CA for trials, then back to Europe, then to Hong Kong. So would Heather Blitz, who I think is bidding for a spot as well. That's alot of travel and alot of down-time in quarantine! And that's ALOT of money!!!! Not to mention the fact that it is alot of time away from her business and other horses in training.

I know there are reasons for having late selection trials (for example, because they want to chose amongst the fittest and best horses *at the time*, and that the Chefs/judges want to see all of the horses in one place competing against each other), but I do think this causes undue burden on horses and people financing the bid. At LEAST, given the fact that two contenders are in Europe and a couple are on the E. Coast, the selection trials should be held on the east coast. Lastly, there's alot of subjectivity that goes into the team selection...i think it should be more objective.


My two cents.
J.

Agree with all of the above- add to that- that I am stunned at how unclear it is to this point who has a chance - who will be going etc. You can NOT get a competitive GP horse ready for this amount of travel and stress without massive conditioning work...

Who is responsible for all this in the US?

[carovet]

even for the east coast horses -- travelling from east coast to west coast for the finals, then back across the us and the pond to europe, then to hong kong....

if everyone has to travel to europe before going to hong kong, then why not have the finals at gladstone and wait until next year to start having them on the west coast

or if they must be on the west coast, stay there and travel straight to hong kong across the pacific rather than zigzagging across the globe (yeah, i know, invaluable showing experience in europe, i agree with that part)

diff question, do most fei competitors fly east coast-west coast and vice versa? (as opposed to doing the very long haul?) do they share one plane when they do? do the owners have to pay for it, or when it is a qualifier for olympics does the uset help with the flights?

i agree in principal that all horses should have to show at the same show

(if a us based rider had an abscess and missed the finals they would be sol, but if a europe based rider had an abscess (or even a bad show?) then they could just go to a another cdi, eh? thats actually gives an advantage to the europe based rider which isn't right for representing the us)

perhaps we should have finals on both coasts judged by the same judges on the same weekend....cheaper (and safer) to fly the judges back and forth (and to europe) than it is to transport the horses

[imajicadutch]

http://www.usef.org/documents/highPerformance/dressage/OGSelectionProceduresDressageFINAL.pdf


Scroll down to section D, fifth paragraph. The selection trials dates and locations "may be subject to change....."

[Reynard Ridge]

i agree in principal that all horses should have to show at the same show

I do, too. And yet practically, the logistics are daunting. The time, the expense, the wear and tear on horse and rider under the current structure for qualification/selection seem unreasonable.

I did read the article and I thought it very brave and smart of Catherine Haddad to bring the topic up in a very public forum now. Heaven knows someone like myself has no answers, but it does seem the selection committee would have both the best interests of "US dressage performance on the International Stage" as well as the health and well-being of the athletes, could step up to the plate and devise a system that would (a) chose the best team and (b) allow that team ample time to train and prepare for Hong Kong.

[Hazelnut]

The goal should be to field the strongest team. If the USEF wants the team selected from one final show, then hold it earlier in the season in a more central location.

Florida comes to mind. Everyone travels there to show anyway. Can it take place in March??

[Ginger]

Why does quarantine have to be in Aachen? (please excuse if this has been discussed elsewhere). We have international quarantine facilities here. It would make more sense to quarantine in California. But that would involve Klaus (??) being away from his business for months. Yikes, what's the trade-off... This will inconvenience someone, no matter what they decide.

[ridgeback]

Does anyone have the article they could email me? Thanks

[Mozart]

Given the qualifying criteria of a few of the countries...it is starting to look like these Olympics are going to be more of endurance contest than dressage competition.

[MEP]

i agree that it was brave of her to write about it publicly. I'm glad to know that the "subject to change" was written in there, and hope appropriate adjustments are made.

[ridgeback]

Article can be seen here http://dressagedaily.com/2008/dd_200...29-haddad.html. I do not get the chronicle so I'm grateful dressagdaily has posted the article. Thanks

[Ilex]

Why is the selection trials being held in California again? I flew out to 'spectate' at the selections four years ago......why not have it on the east coast this time. I want to go.....but not interested in California this year.

[canyonoak]

In order to pick 12 horses to look at in a selection trial, there needs to be a show season for the greener horses to actually get out and show.

This year, the U.S. has a lot of green prospects to consider for the team. As Catherine Haddad pointed out, all the Team horses from last Olympics appear to be retired.

Where and how can these newer prospects get some show experience? Why, in the CDIs and CDI-Ws.

And--welfare of the horse--these shows cannot be over too short a time span.

Which leaves us with the spring for shows. March April, May.

The dates for those shows were written in stone over a year ago at least.

I have no idea why the ruling about horses in Europe seems to have been altered, but plan to ask The Powers That Be.


And at some point, the horses sort of need to go head-to-head, and be compared, same day, same judge location.

This of course directly ties in to one of the main problems for the U.S. in dressage trying to follow European models.

Also unclkear is why the horses, aft6er the selection trials, cannot quarantine in California and then fly wets to Hong Kong..This seems to make more sense considering USOC and their insistence on what part of the travel expenses they are willing to pick up.
Surely it is better to have them pay to fly the horses from the US/back to the US rather than Aachen.

[PiaffeDreams]

"Everyone has a fair shot at making the team, but combinations that travel long distances to California have no chance to be fit for the Games in August."

So, its more equitable to have riders from both east and west go to Europe to select and then go to Hong Kong? Or is it that the California riders should make the trip east and then to Europe and then Hong Kong?.... or.....

[frappelou]

I agree in principle that the selection process and the travel plans after the selection trials do not seem to make much sense in terms of horse welfare. However the selection process was approved by the USOC in October of 2007 and IMHO it is too late to change the criteria for the actual team selection. I think it would be extremely unfair to the US based riders, especially those on the West Coast, who have most assuredly made plans and decisions based on the approved criteria to change them now. Maybe like Canada, they will rethink the decision to go to Europe after the selection trials and before Hong Kong.

You can see the approved selection criteria, the 2008 Olympic Games Selection Trials/USEF National Grand Prix Championship Ranking that Catherine references in her article as well as other documents related to the Olympics on the USEF website at this link.

http://www.usef.org/Contentpage2.aspx?id=dressage

About the Ranking - Even though the list shows a ranking, the list does not truly represent where all the riders actually stand in terms of the selection process. Many of the riders have not completed the requirements for qualifying yet. For example, Catherine, Heather and Lisa all only have scores from one show on the list. If you read the qualifing requirements, horse and rider combinations must complete a minimum of two qualifying competitions in the U.S. and/or Europe. They must complete the Grand Prix Test and the Grand Prix Special in combination at one or more competitions and the Grand Prix and Grand Prix Freestyle in combination at one or more competitions.

That being said, I am sure those that have not met the criteria yet will work on meeting the qualifications before the selection trials. My point being that the scores/rankings on this list do not accurately reflect who the top riders are now or will be in June. And to change the qualifying system, location, or date based on the fact that four of the top 6 ranked horse and rider teams are European or East Coast as Catherine claims in her article, would be a poor decision. Three of the four top ranked riders that have actually completed the requirements are West Coast based. If we were to select our Olympic team strictly from this list, at this point in time, the three members would be Courtney King, Steffen Peters and Kristina Harrison-Naness with Debbie McDonald as the fourth (traveling reserve) rider on the team.

Catherine, Lisa and Heather all have scores from other competitions that they could use to qualify, however those scores are not included on this list by their choice. According to the rules, in order to exclude scores earned prior to January 1, 2008 the rider specifically had to notify USEF in writing to not have those scores included in the ranking. After Jan. 1, 2008, riders must submit a request in writing to USEF 10 days prior to the start of competition to have the scores count. I can only surmise from reading this, that Heather, Catherine and Lisa wrote to USEF to not include their scores from their other 2007 shows.

Here are some of their other Grand Prix scores that they have received during the qualifying period:

Catherine’s other scores from her website:

2007-12-26 - CDI-W - Mechelen BEL
Grand Prix Maximus JSS Catherine Haddad / USA 67.542%

2007-08-04 - CDI*** - Verden, GER
Grand Prix Maximus JSS Catherine Haddad / USA 67.542%

2007-07-07 - CDI**** - Aachen, GER
Grand Prix Maximus JSS Catherine Haddad / USA 68.95%

Lisa’s GP score from the 2007 CDI Oldenburg, Germany November 8-11, 2007
Lisa M. Wilcox - Naomi - 63.875% (USA)

Heather’s Grand Prix score from 2007 CDI Falsterbo, Sweden July 18 - 22, 2007
Heather Blitz - Otto - 66.875 (USA)

For those who believe that the European based riders should be able to receive a bye, the short list would still be the same even if they did. If the U.S. changed the selection criteria to allow the European based riders to qualify using the same criteria that was used in 2004, neither Catherine Haddad nor Heather Bender would make the team based on the current rankings. In 2004 the selection procedures allowed for a rider competing in Europe, and not participating in the Trials, to be selected for the Short List provided they had an average at least two percentage points higher than the fourth ranked rider/horse combination coming out of the two selection trials. You can see by looking at the list that neither Catherine with a score of 69% or Heather with a score of 68.167% has met that requirement. Catherine’s score is not two percentage points higher than any of the top 11 competitors on the list. So no, as one person claimed in another thread on this BB, the current selection criteria is not a conspiracy to keep Catherine off the team.

[J-Lu]

Hmmmmm.

Thank you for your lengthy response to the emails on this thread. I appreciate your taking the time to do this.

J.

[canyonoak]

<< Catherine Haddad nor Heather Bender >>

Heather Blitz.

Other than this teeny-weeny point, I think frappelou's post is cogent and well thought-out.

thanks!

[ridgeback]

Thanks for posting this it was full of great info especially for a first time poster.. I thought I read everything on this can you point out where someone said it was a conspiracy to keep Catherine off the team? Although after what happened with WEG selection you can understand why some may think it's a conspiracy. When NOT one of the members of the selection committee went to europe to watch the competitions for the last two spots nor did they ask to see a video of the rides and if I'm not mistaken they had never seen Catherine ride. Need I mention Catherine beat those U.S. riders competing for that last spot.. We all know how that turned out as well as the placings of all the U.S. riders at WEG. So conspiracy is a legit argument and I'd love to know who made it:)

I don't think you can compare the scores that U.S riders receive in Europe competing against the best in the world to U.S. riders showing in the U.S. Just look at Lisa's and Courtney's scores from recently showing in Europe compared to their scores here in the U.S. I don't follow the rules in regards to what kind of scores are needed for a U.S. rider based in Europe but I do think it would be interesting for the U.S. riders to compete in Europe against the best in the world and see which U.S. riders place on top. Now that would be fun to watch... Good Luck to everyone competing for a spot on the team..I'm cheering for everyone including Catherine. GO U.S.A

I agree in principle that the selection process and the travel plans after the selection trials do not seem to make much sense in terms of horse welfare. However the selection process was approved by the USOC in October of 2007 and IMHO it is too late to change the criteria for the actual team selection. I think it would be extremely unfair to the US based riders, especially those on the West Coast, who have most assuredly made plans and decisions based on the approved criteria to change them now. Maybe like Canada, they will rethink the decision to go to Europe after the selection trials and before Hong Kong.

You can see the approved selection criteria, the 2008 Olympic Games Selection Trials/USEF National Grand Prix Championship Ranking that Catherine references in her article as well as other documents related to the Olympics on the USEF website at this link.

http://www.usef.org/Contentpage2.aspx?id=dressage

About the Ranking - Even though the list shows a ranking, the list does not truly represent where all the riders actually stand in terms of the selection process. Many of the riders have not completed the requirements for qualifying yet. For example, Catherine, Heather and Lisa all only have scores from one show on the list. If you read the qualifing requirements, horse and rider combinations must complete a minimum of two qualifying competitions in the U.S. and/or Europe. They must complete the Grand Prix Test and the Grand Prix Special in combination at one or more competitions and the Grand Prix and Grand Prix Freestyle in combination at one or more competitions.

That being said, I am sure those that have not met the criteria yet will work on meeting the qualifications before the selection trials. My point being that the scores/rankings on this list do not accurately reflect who the top riders are now or will be in June. And to change the qualifying system, location, or date based on the fact that four of the top 6 ranked horse and rider teams are European or East Coast as Catherine claims in her article, would be a poor decision. Three of the four top ranked riders that have actually completed the requirements are West Coast based. If we were to select our Olympic team strictly from this list, at this point in time, the three members would be Courtney King, Steffen Peters and Kristina Harrison-Naness with Debbie McDonald as the fourth (traveling reserve) rider on the team.

Catherine, Lisa and Heather all have scores from other competitions that they could use to qualify, however those scores are not included on this list by their choice. According to the rules, in order to exclude scores earned prior to January 1, 2008 the rider specifically had to notify USEF in writing to not have those scores included in the ranking. After Jan. 1, 2008, riders must submit a request in writing to USEF 10 days prior to the start of competition to have the scores count. I can only surmise from reading this, that Heather, Catherine and Lisa wrote to USEF to not include their scores from their other 2007 shows.

Here are some of their other Grand Prix scores that they have received during the qualifying period:

Catherine’s other scores from her website:

2007-12-26 - CDI-W - Mechelen BEL
Grand Prix Maximus JSS Catherine Haddad / USA 67.542%

2007-08-04 - CDI*** - Verden, GER
Grand Prix Maximus JSS Catherine Haddad / USA 67.542%

2007-07-07 - CDI**** - Aachen, GER
Grand Prix Maximus JSS Catherine Haddad / USA 68.95%

Lisa’s GP score from the 2007 CDI Oldenburg, Germany November 8-11, 2007
Lisa M. Wilcox - Naomi - 63.875% (USA)

Heather’s Grand Prix score from 2007 CDI Falsterbo, Sweden July 18 - 22, 2007
Heather Blitz - Otto - 66.875 (USA)

For those who believe that the European based riders should be able to receive a bye, the short list would still be the same even if they did. If the U.S. changed the selection criteria to allow the European based riders to qualify using the same criteria that was used in 2004, neither Catherine Haddad nor Heather Bender would make the team based on the current rankings. In 2004 the selection procedures allowed for a rider competing in Europe, and not participating in the Trials, to be selected for the Short List provided they had an average at least two percentage points higher than the fourth ranked rider/horse combination coming out of the two selection trials. You can see by looking at the list that neither Catherine with a score of 69% or Heather with a score of 68.167% has met that requirement. Catherine’s score is not two percentage points higher than any of the top 11 competitors on the list. So no, as one person claimed in another thread on this BB, the current selection criteria is not a conspiracy to keep Catherine off the team.

[J-Lu]

Thanks for posting this it was full of great info especially for a first time poster.. I thought I read everything on this can you point out where someone said it was a conspiracy to keep Catherine off the team? Although after what happened with WEG selection you can understand why some may think it's a conspiracy. When NOT one of the members of the selection committee went to europe to watch the competitions for the last two spots nor did they ask to see a video of the rides and if I'm not mistaken they had never seen Catherine ride. Need I mention Catherine beat those U.S. riders competing for that last spot.. We all know how that turned out as well as the placings of all the U.S. riders at WEG. So conspiracy is a legit argument and I'd love to know who made it:)


I did hear this story first hand. Quite the extremely unfortunate roller coaster ride. I couldn't imagine going down centerline with that story hanging over me.

[frappelou]

Sorry, I did mean Heather Blitz. I don’t know why I said Heather Bender.

The post I am referring to is on the “american selection criteria under fire” thread. The poster is freestyle2music (Theo, I believe?) I know he likes to stir things up a bit. First time poster, long time lurker. :) He didn’t use the word conspiracy, that was my word. He wrote “But could it be that some hotshot don't want CH on the team ?”

The point about the scores generally being higher at the U.S. shows is well taken however both of Debbie and Kristina’s scores were earned in Europe as well. Debbie’s Bremen score (69.083) is higher than Heather’s (68.167) and Kristina’s is about 2/10 of a percent lower (67.958). Lisa’s lower score (63.875%), not used in the rankings, was from the Oldenburg CDI. Kristina and Debbie also competed at the same show and their scores were 68.083 and 66.667 respectively.

[hsheffield]

canyon oak:

any word on your bet that CH will be showing up in California to compete this June?

[ridgeback]

canyon oak:

any word on your bet that CH will be showing up in California to compete this June?

Yea I'm interested in that as well Canyon Oak.. I'd be surprised after what she wrote but maybe Canyon Oak has an in??:D

[canyonoak]

well...now that CH has pulled out of Hagen and most recently Wiesbaden CDIs...I'm rethinking my statement.
SFAIK, she needs one more CDI score for the rankings, and trials are in 6 weeks.

oh well.

[Kathy Johnson]

I'm not sure why it is important that all the horses have to show at the same show. Why not just have them show under the same judges? It would be a lot easier on the horses if they just flew the judges around for a series of selection trials.

[Sabine]

I'm not sure why it is important that all the horses have to show at the same show. Why not just have them show under the same judges? It would be a lot easier on the horses if they just flew the judges around for a series of selection trials.

it's too late for creative thinking...Catherine protested that very notion- the rigid requirements for everyone- even those based in Europe- a traditionally tough judging ground.
I don't believe she'll come and I don't believe she's playing the current game of courting that seems to be needed to make the team...she'll just wait for the next turn and see if they'll court her...;)!