what do you think of these barefoot trims w/ pics

[Comegaitby]

Hi,
Could you all give me some input on how well you think these horses have been barefoot trimmed? I have a new horse who has been barefoot his whole life, has excellent feet and is going to stay barefoot for now. I was planning on having my regular farrier do the trimming. I also was recommended a barefoot trimmer in the area by a fellow boarder. I'm unsure who to use, and I found some pictures of the barefoot trimmer's work on the trimmer's website. Any judgments on the quality of the trim?
Please don't make this a farrier/barefoot trimmer debate- I am just trying to choose the best person for my horse's happy barefoot feet.
Thanks!!
http://jenniferlrizzo.googlepages.com/Hustle.JPG/Hustle-full.jpg
http://jenniferlrizzo.googlepages.com/Cedar.JPG/Cedar-full.jpg
http://jenniferlrizzo.googlepages.com/Lit2.JPG/Lit2-full.jpg
http://jenniferlrizzo.googlepages.com/Shawnee.JPG/Shawnee-full.jpg

[BEARCAT]

They look really short to me...

[zafirah]

That first horse's feet look really.. er.. bad to me. They look super short, but it may just be the horse. They look jagged and unshaped. As for the others, they all look about the same, but they don't look quite.. right[?] to me. I'm a barefoot farrier also and I've never had a hoof to look that way when the trim was finished. Though it may just be how they trim, I personally would get another opinion and look at a few more barefoot farriers to get a comparison on the hooves. I believe http://ironfreehoof.com has pictures of all their trims and the finished product. Hope that helps :)

[eruss]

They look good!

Draft feet often look short.

[EqTrainer]

I don't think they look really short, I think it looks like the horse is part draft. The only half draft on my farm has feet just like that!

The other horses... it's hard to say, because none of us know where they started. I trim a 20+ ASB gelding who had two inch heels and over four inch toes when I pulled his shoes. IMO and his owners opinion and his vets opinion and my farriers opinion, his feet look fantastic now and he is very sound. But they are NEVER going to look like a textbook foot, because for 19 years (he was shod as a late yearling!) he was shod "like a Saddlebred".

So it's very hard to say. I don't think her work looks *bad*. I think it is very hard to make any sort of judgement call, with only this much information.

Instead, I would ask her for references from other trimmers, farriers and vets as well as clients. My farrier and vet refer people to me, which is the greatest compliment to my work I could be given. There are no other trimmers around here.. other than the girl who carves out big holes in the horses soles :eek: so no help there for me :lol:

[JB]

http://jenniferlrizzo.googlepages.com/Hustle.JPG/Hustle-full.jpg
I like it a lot! Most people used to seeing most shod feet are shocked at how "short" a well-trimmed, healthy bare foot is. It's fairly clear this foot has been well-trimmed for a good while. Could it be better? Sure - the left half, as judged by the centerline of the frog of the solar view is narrower than the right half, but that's a bit of a nit since no other views of the foot are present, nor views of the limb, nor movement. I like the foot :)

http://jenniferlrizzo.googlepages.com/Cedar.JPG/Cedar-full.jpg (http://jenniferlrizzo.googlepages.com/Cedar.JPG/Cedar-full.jpg)
Not as pretty as the first one, but shows promise. The same M/L imbalance shows, and the frog is much less healthy (not nearly as full, a deep cleft). But, not knowing where the foot has been in the last 6-12 months, it's not terribly fair to judge the current trim stand alone.

http://jenniferlrizzo.googlepages.com/Lit2.JPG/Lit2-full.jpg
The worst of the 3 so far, BUT, as caveated above, we don't know where the foot is coming from. There's too much foot in front, the toe is too long therefore is being squared off, the heels are contracted, and the frog isn't terribly healthy. I AM concerned by what looks like someone having really dug at the bars though :confused:

http://jenniferlrizzo.googlepages.com/Shawnee.JPG/Shawnee-full.jpg (http://jenniferlrizzo.googlepages.com/Shawnee.JPG/Shawnee-full.jpg)Pretty :) They could be better, to be perfect, but more nits, particularly, again, not knowing where they are coming from.

Even more importantly - how long have these trimmers been trimming these feet, and are these horses sound for work similar to what you do?

And maybe even MORE importantly - do you have pictures of your regular farrier's work? If he trims well, he should be able to trim your new horse's feet.

[Comegaitby]

thanks this is very helpful.
A little more info about how long these horses have been trimmed by this barefoot trimmer according to her website:
http://jenniferlrizzo.googlepages.com/Hustle.JPG/Hustle-full.jpg since Oct 07
http://jenniferlrizzo.googlepages.com/Cedar.JPG/Cedar-full.jpg since March 07
http://jenniferlrizzo.googlepages.com/Lit2.JPG/Lit2-full.jpg since Oct 05
http://jenniferlrizzo.googlepages.com/Shawnee.JPG/Shawnee-full.jpg since Sept 07

I do like my regular farrier as does my vet, when one of my horses had a lameness problem we took an x-ray of his foot with shoe on and my vet was impressed with the shoeing based on the angles in the x-ray.
My farrier did one of my horses who only wore front shoes and I never had any complaints about how he trimmed the hinds.
I've just never had a horse that is comfy barefoot all around and I wasn't sure if it was better to go with a barefoot trimmer. My new horse has fabulous feet so he doesn't need any corrections or drastic work.

Any opinions on whether it is better to just have a farrier do a regular trim or to shop around for a barefoot trimmer?
Also, some of you have commented about a healthy barefoot trim looking short. I will admit to thinking a few of the trims in the pictures looked short and I am use to seeing mostly shod feet. Can anyone educate me as why a healthy barefoot trim might be shorter?
Thanks

[LovePonies]

Hi All,

I'm the trimmer of the feet in question and would be happy to address some of your concerns.

Firstly, the photos of Hustle (the Haflinger) were taken after his first trim by me :)
He had been diagnosed with pedal osteitis about 1 year ago, and his owner tried bar shoes as well as bar shoes w/ wedge pads (per recommendation of vet & farrier) for a few cycles before realizing his lameness was worsening. The owner then had the horse trimmed by another barefoot trimmer for a few cycles with slow improvement. When I began trimming him, I found him to have very challenging feet to work with (terrible medial/lateral balance), and he blew a major abscess out his frog on that first trim. He's not been lame and has been trail riding periodically. In the ensuing trims the appearance of his feet has gradually improved. I gently "encourage" his feet in the right direction, and with exercise and 3 trims he's starting to have better balance and healthier digital cushions.
Natural barefoot feet may appear shorter to someone who is not used to seeing them. When there's a tight white line connection, the bony column is suspended higher up in the hoof capsule; and long walls should not be bearing, but rather sharing, the weight of the horse.
I trim to the parameters set by the feet using the live sole plane as my major guide. Plus, Hustle is also a hairy drafty pony with the photo taken in late Autumn, and I'm sure if we trimmed up his leg hair, you'd see the feet are not all that compact, though we're getting there;).

Lit (Arab) is an older gentleman who came out of shoes a couple of years ago after having terrible lameness problems, particularly a high bowed tendon on a front leg. His feet began as what I refer to as "duck feet" (very long toes, underslung heels, very contracted) and have improved very gradually; I believe this is mainly due to inadequate turnout (~1 hour per day) at his former barn. He's now moving to a barn with full-day turnout, and I suspect his feet will improve ten-fold in a much shorter amount of time. Most importantly, though, he's not been lame due to his feet for a single day since going barefoot. :)

Cedar (Morgan) has recently come out of 4 shoes. He was severely contracted and loooong in all 4 feet, and to be very honest, I am *thrilled* with the photo I posted! His feet have shown *significant* improvement in the short time I've worked with him. I am happy with both the medial/lateral and anteroposterior balance. The digital cushions are developing (though they are clearly significantly underdeveloped). His very large quarter crack on a hind foot is nearly gone. His owner and I are very happy with the progress :)

Shawnee (Perch X) is also coming along nicely. To start she had "pancake feet" (very flared, splayed feet with significant separation) with bilateral toe cracks. In just 3 trims everything is coming neater and tighter.
I think it can be very difficult to judge the med/lat balance and other more subtle findings on a single solar-plane photograph....I can take more to show you if you'd like. I think there is very little to find fault with, particularly in her feet. :)

All of the photos I posted were *not* of perfect hooves for thorough analysis (though I'm happy to provide them to anyone who inquires). I posted them to show the various types of hooves and horses I work with and the many stages & permutations of transitioning feet, and that each horse appears happy and able to work :)

Happy trails,
Jen <\__~

[jack mac]

Hi All,

I'm the trimmer of the feet in question and would be happy to address some of your concerns.

Firstly, the photos of Hustle (the Haflinger) were taken after his first trim by me :)
He had been diagnosed with pedal osteitis about 1 year ago, and his owner tried bar shoes as well as bar shoes w/ wedge pads (per recommendation of vet & farrier) for a few cycles before realizing his lameness was worsening. The owner then had the horse trimmed by another barefoot trimmer for a few cycles with slow improvement. When I began trimming him, I found him to have very challenging feet to work with (terrible medial/lateral balance), and he blew a major abscess out his frog on that first trim. He's not been lame and has been trail riding periodically. In the ensuing trims the appearance of his feet has gradually improved. I gently "encourage" his feet in the right direction, and with exercise and 3 trims he's starting to have better balance and healthier digital cushions.
Natural barefoot feet may appear shorter to someone who is not used to seeing them. When there's a tight white line connection, the bony column is suspended higher up in the hoof capsule; and long walls should not be bearing, but rather sharing, the weight of the horse.
I trim to the parameters set by the feet using the live sole plane as my major guide. Plus, Hustle is also a hairy drafty pony with the photo taken in late Autumn, and I'm sure if we trimmed up his leg hair, you'd see the feet are not all that compact, though we're getting there;).

Lit (Arab) is an older gentleman who came out of shoes a couple of years ago after having terrible lameness problems, particularly a high bowed tendon on a front leg. His feet began as what I refer to as "duck feet" (very long toes, underslung heels, very contracted) and have improved very gradually; I believe this is mainly due to inadequate turnout (~1 hour per day) at his former barn. He's now moving to a barn with full-day turnout, and I suspect his feet will improve ten-fold in a much shorter amount of time. Most importantly, though, he's not been lame due to his feet for a single day since going barefoot. :)

Cedar (Morgan) has recently come out of 4 shoes. He was severely contracted and loooong in all 4 feet, and to be very honest, I am *thrilled* with the photo I posted! His feet have shown *significant* improvement in the short time I've worked with him. I am happy with both the medial/lateral and anteroposterior balance. The digital cushions are developing (though they are clearly significantly underdeveloped). His very large quarter crack on a hind foot is nearly gone. His owner and I are very happy with the progress :)

Shawnee (Perch X) is also coming along nicely. To start she had "pancake feet" (very flared, splayed feet with significant separation) with bilateral toe cracks. In just 3 trims everything is coming neater and tighter.
I think it can be very difficult to judge the med/lat balance and other more subtle findings on a single solar-plane photograph....I can take more to show you if you'd like. I think there is very little to find fault with, particularly in her feet. :)

All of the photos I posted were *not* of perfect hooves for thorough analysis (though I'm happy to provide them to anyone who inquires). I posted them to show the various types of hooves and horses I work with and the many stages & permutations of transitioning feet, and that each horse appears happy and able to work :)

Happy trails,
Jen <\__~I hate to rain on your parade but all those hooves in those pics need shoeing, if you are going to ride them in any fashion other than soft pasture & even that can be a maybe, i don't know how you cant see the sole on those feet deteriorating with ware & tare, you may think your doing them a service by leaving them shoe less while your ridding them & the soles are fine because the horses are managing & tolerating it at the moment, but with ware & tare also comes nerve damage, what i call the fools gold of bare foot trimming, give it time working them on hard abrasive surfaces with out shoe & you will find them start to stumbling then shuffling, & your nice quiet horse will start to not want to come when you call or be caught & or ridden, then start to buck so you get off & you will do what most of the bare foot trimmers do through ignorance not Acknowledge the problem is with his feet, but assume he's got a problem with his back & pay some chiropractor big bucks to rub & massage the none existent sore spots, & enjoy hearing & him or her telling you his back neck or poll was out, if your going to ride a horse on hard abrasive sand and gravel surfaces it need shoeing full stop & if you don't your doing internal damage to the hooves of that horse & he will have to pay for it 2 to 3 year down the track.:) because you believe theses gurus that couldn't shoe a horse properly in the first place & are know making big bucks out of your gullibility :)

[irishcas]

I think the feet look fine.

The questions I would ask the barefoot trimmer: (Welcome Jen :D)

How long have you been trimming?
Who were your teachers?
Do you trim sole a lot?
How important is diet and exercise to the bare hoof?
What is your booting protocol?


My only concern was the second or third foot that had extreme trimming of the bars. Why were they taken past live sole?

OP: Your farrier may do a good job, can you share current pix of your horses feet?
Most of the farriers I see in my area, trim too much bar and sole and don't address breakover, flaring or high heels. Doesn't mean all of them just relating my experiences.

Regards,

[LMH]

My only concern was the second or third foot that had extreme trimming of the bars. Why were they taken past live sole?



This is what jumped out at me as well.

[JB]

Oh jack, LMAO!!!!!

LovePonies, for the sake of all that is Holy, put jack mac on your ignore list, fast. Ignore him, period. Do not get upset by what he says, just pretend he's not here.

[Daydream Believer]

Welcome Jen also. Good to have more trimmers here. I did not comment as I feel like Aventura Two...impossible to really get a true impression of someone's work by a couple of photos taken out of context and not knowing the history. Overall I thought they looked pretty good too. The short feet don't bother me a bit..that is normal for certain horses trimmed properly.

Also don't let Jack mac bother you..he is a bit set in his opinions to put it mildly.

[CookiePony]

I hate to rain on your parade but all those hooves in those pics need shoeing, if you are going to ride them in any fashion other than soft pasture & even that can be a maybe, i don't know how you cant see the sole on those feet deteriorating with ware & tare, you may think your doing them a service by leaving them shoe less while your ridding them & the soles are fine because the horses are managing & tolerating it at the moment, [ rant, rant, rant...]

Jack, you crack me up! I want some of what you're smoking. :D

[Rick Burten]

Of the four horses, the only one I would consider shoes for is the haflinger and that is only because of his history with pedal osteitis. And, at that, depending on an evaluation with hoof testers,it would only be front shoes and they would include a rim pad and probably Equipak.

What I so see in all the photographs is the heels are not balanced to each other. In two of the photos, it appears to the the heel on the left side and on the other two, the right side.

The photo of the Arab's foot gives me the distinct impression that that foot is upright/clubby(I'm goinna go out on a limb here and guess that its his right front) and IMNTBCHO, needs the heels lowered a bit more and the toe pulled back a bit more. If that is done, it should take care of some of the concerns others have expressed about the bars perhaps being a bit overpared.

None of my comments should be interpreted to mean the overall all job is bad. It just means I think things could be 'tweaked' a bit more. Overall, the feet appear to be fairly healthy and if the sand arena is the surface they are spending most of their time on, then the malebility of the surface will help compensate for what I consider minor shortcomings with the trim.

Might want to consider using Durasole on the Haflinger's front feet.

[FortheFunofitFarm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comegaitby http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=2963562#post2963562)
http://jenniferlrizzo.googlepages.co...ustle-full.jpg (http://jenniferlrizzo.googlepages.com/Hustle.JPG/Hustle-full.jpg)

I like it a lot! Most people used to seeing most shod feet are shocked at how "short" a well-trimmed, healthy bare foot is. It's fairly clear this foot has been well-trimmed for a good while. Could it be better? Sure - the left half, as judged by the centerline of the frog of the solar view is narrower than the right half, but that's a bit of a nit since no other views of the foot are present, nor views of the limb, nor movement. I like the foot :)


The asymmetry of his sole - the left being narrower than the right, might just be a reflection of the shape of his coffin bone. To attempt to "balance" it, either with shoes or barefoot, without x-rays, is in my opinion, not a good idea ;).

Welcome, Love ponies. Do you happen to have x-rays of Hustle? - who is absolutely adorable, btw!

[rmh]

Maybe the terminology is wrong in my head. How do you determine a medial/lateral imbalace from these solar photos?

[JB]

Maybe the terminology is wrong in my head. How do you determine a medial/lateral imbalace from these solar photos?

If you draw a line from toe to heel down the middle of the frog, the 2 sides of the foot should be mirrors in the ideal world.

[rmh]

Thanks JB:). I guess I was thinking about heel heights and using the method of sighting the plane by holding up the leg and letting the foot naturally hang. I understand the mirror image concept. I was thinking planes. To me the mirror image concept has to do with symmetry.

[BumbleBee]

I hate to rain on your parade but all those hooves in those pics need shoeing, if you are going to ride them in any fashion other than soft pasture & even that can be a maybe, i don't know how you cant see the sole on those feet deteriorating with ware & tare, you may think your doing them a service by leaving them shoe less while your ridding them & the soles are fine because the horses are managing & tolerating it at the moment, but with ware & tare also comes nerve damage, what i call the fools gold of bare foot trimming, give it time working them on hard abrasive surfaces with out shoe & you will find them start to stumbling then shuffling, & your nice quiet horse will start to not want to come when you call or be caught & or ridden, then start to buck so you get off & you will do what most of the bare foot trimmers do through ignorance not Acknowledge the problem is with his feet, but assume he's got a problem with his back & pay some chiropractor big bucks to rub & massage the none existent sore spots, & enjoy hearing & him or her telling you his back neck or poll was out, if your going to ride a horse on hard abrasive sand and gravel surfaces it need shoeing full stop & if you don't your doing internal damage to the hooves of that horse & he will have to pay for it 2 to 3 year down the track.:) because you believe theses gurus that couldn't shoe a horse properly in the first place & are know making big bucks out of your gullibility :)


lol do you wear a hat with a bell? maybe a big ruffled collar?

[BumbleBee]

This is what jumped out at me as well.

Okay I'll admit that made me look a bit too.

[BumbleBee]

Oh jack, LMAO!!!!!

LovePonies, for the sake of all that is Holy, put jack mac on your ignore list, fast. Ignore him, period. Do not get upset by what he says, just pretend he's not here.

no way he provides great entertainment value. :lol:

[Auventera Two]

If you draw a line from toe to heel down the middle of the frog, the 2 sides of the foot should be mirrors in the ideal world.

I've actually learned this to be not true. Just like our own feet are not perfectly straight and identical on both sides when divided down the middle, neither are horse's feet. The lateral side tends to be more round and full and the medial side more flat and square due to the center of gravity of the horse and how the hoof is weighted.

[jack mac]

I've actually learned this to be not true. Just like our own feet are not perfectly straight and identical on both sides when divided down the middle, neither are horse's feet. The lateral side tends to be more round and full and the medial side more flat and square due to the center of gravity of the horse and how the hoof is weighted.100 % correct you get a Gold Star from JACK :)

[jack mac]

lol do you wear a hat with a bell? maybe a big ruffled collar?Only when my stretchy pants & cape are in the wash ;)

[JHUshoer20]

100 % correct you get a Gold Star from JACK :)
There you go! See thats why they wanted to fix her up with you Jack:winkgrin:
George

[jack mac]

There you go! See thats why they wanted to fix her up with you Jack:winkgrin:
GeorgeGeorge you are 100% correct you get a Gold Star from jack :lol:
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/m_44fb4cee10e823fde37d8544b6c2f59e.jpg

[JHUshoer20]

George you are 100% correct you get a Gold Star from jack :lol:
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/m_44fb4cee10e823fde37d8544b6c2f59e.jpg
LMYAO:lol: Youre ok Jack!

[JB]

I've actually learned this to be not true. Just like our own feet are not perfectly straight and identical on both sides when divided down the middle,
But human feet AREN'T symmetrical ;)

neither are horse's feet. The lateral side tends to be more round and full and the medial side more flat and square due to the center of gravity of the horse and how the hoof is weighted.

So the feet that I have seen that ARE very symmetrical are somehow wrong? :confused:

I'm not saying that all feet should be symmetrical (hence my "ideal world"), and I do realize that feet with some degree of "pathology" either due to injury or leg conformation, are not going to be symmetrical because of uneven load bearing, and I do realize that hind feet are more likely to generically be a bit asymmetrical than fronts, but I thought that front feet, barring something that deters it, are/should be pretty darn close :confused:

[Auventera Two]

I don't believe that in an "ideal world" all hooves are perfectly symmetrical. I don't think there's anything at all wrong with hooves that are asymmetrical. There's a difference in a wry foot, or rotated hoof capsule, and one that's just simply fuller and rounder on the lateral side and straighter on the medial. I'm not saying that a crooked or wry foot is correct. Some horses might have perfectly symmetrical feet depending on their center of gravity and way of moving, and that might be perfectly healthy and normal for them. And some may have asymmetrical feet that are perfectly healthy and normal for them. I would like to know of a good reason to force asymmetrical feet into a symmetrical form.

Here's a page from my website: http://www.hphoofcare.com/Medial%20lateral%20sides.doc. The hoof is obviously foundered, but the concept is the same.

[Auventera Two]

There you go! See thats why they wanted to fix her up with you Jack:winkgrin:
George

:lol: I'm fixed up with one dude already and I can barely keep HIM in line! :winkgrin:

[LMH]

I've actually learned this to be not true. Just like our own feet are not perfectly straight and identical on both sides when divided down the middle, neither are horse's feet. The lateral side tends to be more round and full and the medial side more flat and square due to the center of gravity of the horse and how the hoof is weighted.

TO add to this, this is why you always check for the widest part of the foot by checking to the lateral side (as opposed to the medial side).

In a correct foot, the lateral side will have more 'width'-though on the fronts the difference is quite small.

[in_the_zone]

Dear OP, I'm glad you are open-minded about what is best for your horse and his well-being. It doesn't sound like you've made up your mind either way, but educating yourself is the best thing you can do for him!

In my experience, some vets haven't had enough education focusing on hoof mechanics to be farriers, and some farriers have gotten poor educations and think they are doing the right thing. Now, it's all relative because we all believe we are doing the "right" thing, but keep in mind it's in our own personal education that we base our decisions and convictions on.

Jen, I'm glad you came here and explained some of these horses issues and time being trimmed by you. Overall, these are decent, but not perfect, trims. I agree with the statement that most people are alarmed by their first impressions of a barefoot trim. It seems short, but only because of the push by (some) farriers to grow more heel and taller feet. Most of Jen's style seem to be leaning towards the 4 point Natural Balance style trim.

I do see some imbalances that hoofrx saw in the heels. Some minor tweaking my be needed, but like Jen said, there may be other issues we don't know about and we are only one picture. I personally would like to see the heels come back and down on most of the hooves.

On the Halflinger, I would not have carved out the quarters on the back (which is far too forward into the toe). I also don't like to roll hinds. If hind toes are long and stretched, I usually just rasp the stuff that's way too long vertically and let nature fix the rest. The outside (right) heel of the that front either is improperly rounded toward the heel, making it looks shorter than the other one, or it is shorter. Either way, it doesn't give the horse a 100% laterally stable hoof to stand on. I would back up the opposite heel and make sure the heel triangles on both sides hit the ground perfectly flat.

On the Arab, I agree that this appears to be the low foot on a high/low horse. This is where the 4 point trim need to be modified and a little more of the flaring at the toe addressed. Ya, the trimmer got a little over zealous on the bars, but did stay away from the toe. I'd really like to see the other foot! That's the one that's going to be problematic.

On Shawnee, I'd like to see a heel first landing. You have the foot nice and tight, but the heels need to go back. You can see the frog is not full and plump because it's not in contact with the ground. Pretty much the same thing for Cedar. Back the heels and let his frog decontract.

All that said, most of this is just minor tweaking. I'd like to invite you and Jen to come visit some of us over on equinexion. We are a talkative and friendly group!

[Lookout]

If you draw a line from toe to heel down the middle of the frog, the 2 sides of the foot should be mirrors in the ideal world.
Do you mean looking at the solar view? If so this is one case where the feet are not symmetrical. On the hinds the outside has a rounder shape and the inside more oval. If you have a healthy coffin bone specimen of a hind foot you should be able to tell whether it's a right or left.

[jack mac]

& that should be no different from a front hoof:yes:100% what the hell jacks giving him self a Gold Star & mod your dam right i am more than a hand full :winkgrin:your100% correct you get anther gold star:yes::lol:

[JB]

Do you mean looking at the solar view? If so this is one case where the feet are not symmetrical. On the hinds the outside has a rounder shape and the inside more oval. If you have a healthy coffin bone specimen of a hind foot you should be able to tell whether it's a right or left.
Yep, the solar view, and yep, that was something I pointed out about 2 of the feet above :)

[Auventera Two]

Do you mean looking at the solar view? If so this is one case where the feet are not symmetrical. On the hinds the outside has a rounder shape and the inside more oval. If you have a healthy coffin bone specimen of a hind foot you should be able to tell whether it's a right or left.

Yep. In classes this was one of the things we had to do - say whether we thought it was a left or right foot. You couldn't always tell, but most of the time you could. And even if you couldn't see it in the solar view of the foot, you could sometimes see it just in the way the pastern moved when you weighted it.

[Melelio]

I had an epiphany yesterday while re-reading and researching a 'problem' I thought my guys had.

The main thing I would do differently on these trims is NOT trim the bars. Bowker says the bars are the main area of growth of sole material (or something close to that). And the bars are MEANT to take a big support role, so to trim them down defeats the purpose. They provide traction, and there apparently isn't any issue with 'bar impaction'.

Before yesterday, I was trimming bars, too. But I won't now unless for some reason they grow unreasonably out of control, causing the heel angle to suffer appreciably. But I don't foresee that possibility.

[JHUshoer20]

Before yesterday, I was trimming bars, too. But I won't now unless for some reason they grow unreasonably out of control, causing the heel angle to suffer appreciably. But I don't foresee that possibility.

I routinely cut out bars on every horse for 17 years. Then I heard the same and similar research. Stopped doing it entirely for a few years. In hindsight, I never harmed one in all those years of routinely doing it so now I do and don't do it on a horse by horse individual basis which is as it should be.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking there are hard and fast rules for these things. Like all things equid- it depends.
George

[caballus]

As I understand it, bars not only grow sole material and provide traction but they are also supportive in the manner that they also prevent the heel from expanding *too* much ... bars are an IMPORTANT part of the equine hoof and should never be "trimmed out". Trimmed "down" maybe as the individual hoof requires but never as a routine procedure.

[grayarabs]

For me - what to do with bars - is the hardest thing for me to understand.
I have fear of the hoof knife - so don't use one - and when one says - just leave the bars alone - that is music to my ears. Unfortunately my horse does not get the mileage nor live in terrain that allows him to self-maintain his bars. I can nip and rasp - but have a friend that does his bars. We tried an experiment - to back off on the bars - I think it backfired -I think I have bar growing all over the place. Now it must be removed - slowly - due to tender sole underneath. Were he turned out in rough terrain - walking all day - I would leave them as they are. Now I think I have a mess of overgrown bar on my hands.
I am not convinced of the bar makes sole material theory. I will be open-minded about it - just don't see it. With my horse - his living conditions - if I did nothing with his bars - I think they would completely cover his sole. I wish that were not a problem - since bar material so hard - would make for a pretty tough bottom of foot. But bar where it is not supposed to be ultimately causes problems. I have read Pete's/Bowker's theory on bar/sole - and I guess one has to figure out - when bar goes wild - is it just growing due to lack of self-exfoliation - ie is just plain overgrown - or is the horse putting it there for a reason - so leave it alone - it will do its job - then disappear. I have not seen the latter happen - so I think in my case I just have overgrown bar. I do wish I could turn Rab out on appropriate terrain - with a herd - as his hooves are now - with overgrown bar - monitor - and see what would happen. Cannot do it - so have to play guessing game.

[feetfirst]

George, I have the opposite experience. In the beginning of my career I left the bars full. then I started doing some therapeutic work with a vet and was requested to cut the bars out. So, like you, I can take em or leave em, just depends on what I'm seeing at the time.

[JHUshoer20]

For me - what to do with bars - is the hardest thing for me to understand.
I have fear of the hoof knife - so don't use one - and when one says - just leave the bars alone - that is music to my ears. Unfortunately my horse does not get the mileage nor live in terrain that allows him to self-maintain his bars. I can nip and rasp - but have a friend that does his bars. We tried an experiment - to back off on the bars - I think it backfired -I think I have bar growing all over the place. Now it must be removed - slowly - due to tender sole underneath. Were he turned out in rough terrain - walking all day - I would leave them as they are. Now I think I have a mess of overgrown bar on my hands.
I am not convinced of the bar makes sole material theory. I will be open-minded about it - just don't see it. With my horse - his living conditions - if I did nothing with his bars - I think they would completely cover his sole. I wish that were not a problem - since bar material so hard - would make for a pretty tough bottom of foot. But bar where it is not supposed to be ultimately causes problems. I have read Pete's/Bowker's theory on bar/sole - and I guess one has to figure out - when bar goes wild - is it just growing due to lack of self-exfoliation - ie is just plain overgrown - or is the horse putting it there for a reason - so leave it alone - it will do its job - then disappear. I have not seen the latter happen - so I think in my case I just have overgrown bar. I do wish I could turn Rab out on appropriate terrain - with a herd - as his hooves are now - with overgrown bar - monitor - and see what would happen. Cannot do it - so have to play guessing game.
Its as I said yes they are there for a reason. Yes they are part of the weight bearing structure. Will you harm the hoof by cutting them? No. In fact you often need to for reasons as youve seen to prevent retained sole issues and cracked bars. as well as keeping foreign objects from being lodged into the seat of corn area.

Some horses have little or no bar. Why is this not an issue with them?

This topic is controversial. Horseshoers argue this constantly. I don't see it mattering one way or the other. If you do choose to not pare them don't let them get out of control. Keep an eye on them.
George

[JB]

I used to routinely take the bars of my WB gelding down to just above sole level. They grew like mad, and always seemed to lay over.

Then I decided to take the "leave 'em alone" approach, and only trimmed off the ledge, if one developed, as an effect of rasping the heels (meaning the bars were at heel-height to begin with). At first, more bar grew and laid over a bit more, but I decided to wait a few more trims and see what happened.

One day, the laid over bar material just fell off, literally, and hasn't done that again. That falling off was, oh, maybe 3 months ago.

Will it come back again like that? I don't know.

[marta]

so i don't touch the bars and they are left alone unless they stick out far enough for the rasp to grab them. the only time anyone touches the bars is when our trimmer works on her (2-3 times per year) and she rarely touches them. just when i was getting concerned about their size, in december, the ground froze and now a week or 2 later the bars are barely noticeable. same thing happens in the summer when the ground gets hard and dry.

[Lookout]

I am not convinced of the bar makes sole material theory. I will be open-minded about it - just don't see it. With my horse - his living conditions - if I did nothing with his bars - I think they would completely cover his sole.
There actually is no theory that bar produces sole material. This is something that people have incorrectly interpreted Bowker to have said and it has been repeated so often on the internet that it has achieved urban legend status.

Marta - being afraid to do something is not a reason not to do something. Better to learn how to do it and do so, if and when it's needed.

Some horses never need bars trimmed and same are crippled if they're not. It depends on the horse.

[EqTrainer]

I deal with bars on a per horse basis.

I mostly see the overgrown, spreading, flaring bars on horses who need a tighter hoof capsule in general. A plattering foot, as it were. I think the stretching wall/white line is pulling it, or that it grows that way to try to protect the sole. I don't touch those bars. When I do, the horses are more sore. I only trim them if they are protruding past sole level.

Eventually, when the hoof capsule tightens up and the horse has toe and heel height, the bars remodel and stop spreading.

I routinely only remove bar that is protruding past sole level. If I have trimmed a horse and the trim looks good but the horse is still not 100% putting his foot down, I *may* take the bars down a little more. Sometimes the horse is immediately more comfortable. It's always worth a try :)

I love my hoofknife, I hate the scars I get from it :lol:

[eruss]

I've seen no difference in trimming bars or leaving them.

If you're scared to use a knife, you probably need to learn how to sharpen one.

Good rule of thumb, getting drastic with anything will eventually bite you in the ass.

[Melelio]

Well, I've contacted Dr. Bowker directly to get the real answer. I hope to hear something and report back.

I for one will not be trimming bar until I hear otherwise. And definitely not again to sole level ever.

Lookout:

Here's the info I found from 2003 from this site:

http://www.grayson-jockeyclub.org/aboutDisplay.asp?section=12&story=31

"Hoof growth and development: New revelations $32,100 first year; $32,541 second year
Dr. Robert Bowker - Michigan State University
This diligent scientist (previously funded by GJCRF) has preliminary evidence that the hoof wall grows primarily from the underlying tissue (the epidermal laminae) and only secondarily from the coronary band. Also that the sole originates from the bars of the foot, and moves forward to surround the point of the frog. This study seeks to confirm these findings. The importance of this information is that much of the success in treating foot ailments, such as laminitis, is not because of our understanding of the biological functions of the hoof wall and sole, but due to "Mother Nature" and her abilities to heal. Better understanding of these processes will greatly improve the outcome of horses afflicted with these conditions."



I'm guessing it's not 'urban legend', and I will hope to get the study results for us all to read.

[JHUshoer20]

Well, I've contacted Dr. Bowker directly to get the real answer. I hope to hear something and report back.

I for one will not be trimming bar until I hear otherwise. And definitely not again to sole level ever.

Youve been given plenty of good advice from people who trim horses for a living. What in the world you calling Dr Sole Callous for?
George

[eruss]

Youve been given plenty of good advice from people who trim horses for a living. What in the world you calling Dr Sole Callous for?
George

I'd say between the two of us we have more empirical data than bowker. But hell, between either of us we have more emperical data than him.

[Melelio]

I think I'll wait to hear from someone who has some research behind him, not just a couple of shoers that have hacked a bunch of horse's feet, and called it ok since none of their feet fell off.

There are thousands of H/J horses out there with horribly shod feet who just truck along everyday, not complaining because that's how horses are. Doesn't mean they're completely happy.

But thanks for the idea anyhow.

[JHUshoer20]

I think I'll wait to hear from someone who has some research behind him, not just a couple of shoers that have hacked a bunch of horse's feet, and called it ok since none of their feet fell off.

There are thousands of H/J horses out there with horribly shod feet who just truck along everyday, not complaining because that's how horses are. Doesn't mean they're completely happy.

But thanks for the idea anyhow.
Well......Tell you what, why don't you just say what you REALLY think.:(

As a horseowner if youre dissatisfied with the shoeing going on out there you really have nobody to blame but yourself. if you'd like to get a thread going about how you all ought to be choosing horseshoers that would make my day!:)
George

[caballus]

Great photos, Auventera!! May I use them for the anat/physio part of my NHC course?

[marta]

If you're scared to use a knife, you probably need to learn how to sharpen one.



that's exactly why i have a problem. when i used my trimmer's knife, it was awesome. she showed me how to sharpen the knife, now i just need to do it:)

[caballus]

Sure, if you don't mind noting me as the owner/photographer of the pics. The reason I say that is that so often I see pics on the net and want to talk to the photographer about the pic more but have no clue who actually took the pic and therefore actually SAW the subject material in real life. :winkgrin: Absolutely! Not a problem. Please send me the credit info to caballus@charter.net!! Thanks so much. :)

[TBrescue]

[QUOTE=JB;2969805]

One day, the laid over bar material just fell off, literally, and hasn't done that again. That falling off was, oh, maybe 3 months ago.

QUOTE]


My horse had the same issue, started his barefoot career with extremely laid over bars and suddenly not any more, the "extra" just flaked off leaving normal bars.

[jack mac]

Well, I've contacted Dr. Bowker directly to get the real answer. I hope to hear something and report back.

I for one will not be trimming bar until I hear otherwise. And definitely not again to sole level ever.

Lookout:

Here's the info I found from 2003 from this site:

http://www.grayson-jockeyclub.org/aboutDisplay.asp?section=12&story=31

"Hoof growth and development: New revelations $32,100 first year; $32,541 second year
Dr. Robert Bowker - Michigan State University
This diligent scientist (previously funded by GJCRF) has preliminary evidence that the hoof wall grows primarily from the underlying tissue (the epidermal laminae) and only secondarily from the coronary band. Also that the sole originates from the bars of the foot, and moves forward to surround the point of the frog. This study seeks to confirm these findings. The importance of this information is that much of the success in treating foot ailments, such as laminitis, is not because of our understanding of the biological functions of the hoof wall and sole, but due to "Mother Nature" and her abilities to heal. Better understanding of these processes will greatly improve the outcome of horses afflicted with these conditions."



I'm guessing it's not 'urban legend', and I will hope to get the study results for us all to read.i just cant wait for this sciencfiction novel to get published, id like to order now, ill have a baloney on rye:lol:

[jack mac]

Sure, if you don't mind noting me as the owner/photographer of the pics. The reason I say that is that so often I see pics on the net and want to talk to the photographer about the pic more but have no clue who actually took the pic and therefore actually SAW the subject material in real life. :winkgrin:hey girlfriend i see you don't mind getting your hands dirty every now & then, my kind of girl ;) what the Hell, you have made Jack feel 100 % frisky today:yes: I'm giving you a Gold Star for that :winkgrin:

[JHUshoer20]

i just cant wait for this sciencfiction novel to get published, id like to order now, ill have a baloney on rye:lol:
:lol::lol::lol:
I'll have a bit of the same:cool:

[jack mac]

George your 100% spot on, Jack awards you a Gold star ;)

[JHUshoer20]

George your 100% spot on, Jack awards you a Gold star ;)
Allright, cool:cool:
I was wondering what I had to do to get one of them:D
George

[Auventera Two]

hey girlfriend i see you don't mind getting your hands dirty every now & then, my kind of girl ;) what the Hell, you have made Jack feel 100 % frisky today:yes: I'm giving you a Gold Star for that :winkgrin:

:lol: I don't mind being eyeball deep in the cadaver juice.

:o They usually elected me to scrub off maggots and wrap raw ends.

Seriously.:p