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Hauwse
Jan. 25, 2008, 04:38 PM
I have a few mares and a stud that I am interested in breeding. I have been breeding for hunter/jumpers which is obviously miles away from the racing focus.

The stud has the confirmation, athleticism, etc. I am looking for in a hunter/jumper, but being unfamiliar I do not know if any of the pairings would be suitable for racing.

Can anyone tell me an excellent way to do this analysis, or perhaps some of you are experts in the field and can give me a high level answer, or just any thoughts.

The stud is LEE'S SO TRICKY, 1997, by OLYMPIO, out of SIKSIKA by QUACK

The mares are:

ARUSHI, 1992, by AFLEET, out of EXQUISITELY, by STAGE DOOR JOHNNY
ONE CRAZY LADY, 2001, by AWAD, out of DANTES DANCER, by NORTHERN JOVE
ISABELLLA VICTORIA, 1996, by THIRTY TWO SLEW, out of NIC'S PIC, by NORTHERN LAND

This last mare we are waiting on the DNA testing to confirm her bloodlines, but we are pretty certain we know the sire/dam

MORNING MIST, 1998, by DEVILS BAG, out of BONNIES POKER, by POKER.

Thanks a bunch.

SleepyFox
Jan. 25, 2008, 05:17 PM
MORNING MIST, 1998, by DEVILS BAG, out of BONNIES POKER, by POKER.

The '98 Devils Bag - Bonnie's Poker filly is St. Diva. If your mare is St. Diva, she's had some disappointing foals, but she still deserves to be bred to a good stallion. She's a 1/2 to Silver Charm ($4mill in earnings).

Your stallion, for racebreeding.... I wouldn't do it in the hopes of selling the babies. If can support the foals on the track yourself - or at least get them to the point they are breezing well enough to prove they have talent (and have a plan for them if they don't have talent) and you really believe in him, etc., that's another story. My analysis for this is simply his race record and his pedigree. He doesn't have a bad pedigree, but his sire isn't a "sire of sires" and his dam didn't produce any spectacular runners. If your goal is to breed your own racehorses, you know what this entails and can support it, go ahead with my best wishes. But, if you're hoping to have saleable foals - you can get to an outside stallion with better credentials for whom the marketing is already done and who has other foals headed to the track for not much money.

On the mares, Arushi has a nice pedigree. When was her last JC registered foal? Her foals have been disappointing thus far, but she's not a bad mare. Not terribly commercial - especially at a big sale, but she might be useful. I'm basing this on her pedigree, her race record, what she has produced and what her dam and second dam have produced.

One Crazy Lady - has she had any JC registered foals? She's a nice young mare with a nice pedigree. She was a mulitple winner and in the money a lot. She's 1/2 to a couple of very good runners and stakes placed horse. She's worth a shot, especially as a breed to race mare.

Isabella Victoria - my least favorite of the mares. She was the best runner of the group, but her pedigree is very light (not many good runners in it). Her crossed with your stallion would be a very tough sell as a racehorse - it might be the next John Henry, but it would be hard to get someone to buy it unless it really burned up the track. The reason for this is just pedigree (lack of a lot of good runners in the pedigree).

Other analyses you can do if you so choose - especially if you want to look at these mares crossed with your stallion. Cost varies. You can do a nick by either Werk or True Nicks - these look at how sirelines match up. True Nicks is supposed to have more information in their database than Werk. There is a program that looks at inbreeding - Ultimate 2000. There is one that looks at stakes winners from a particular cross - G1Goldmine. Do an online search for any of them. And, there are others, of course and lots of people that you can hire to give you a detailed analysis.

I apologize if I come off as disparaging toward your stallion - I don't mean to be, just trying to be realistic from a racebreeding perspective. Your mares are not bad mares at all and some of them - especially if you have St. Diva! - are really nice. Best of luck to you in whatever you do and if you stand your boy for racebreeding, please let us know so we can watch for his babies and cheer them on!

Hauwse
Jan. 25, 2008, 05:49 PM
The '98 Devils Bag - Bonnie's Poker filly is St. Diva. If your mare is St. Diva, she's had some disappointing foals, but she still deserves to be bred to a good stallion. She's a 1/2 to Silver Charm ($4mill in earnings).

Your stallion, for racebreeding.... I wouldn't do it in the hopes of selling the babies. If can support the foals on the track yourself - or at least get them to the point they are breezing well enough to prove they have talent (and have a plan for them if they don't have talent) and you really believe in him, etc., that's another story. My analysis for this is simply his race record and his pedigree. He doesn't have a bad pedigree, but his sire isn't a "sire of sires" and his dam didn't produce any spectacular runners. If your goal is to breed your own racehorses, you know what this entails and can support it, go ahead with my best wishes. But, if you're hoping to have saleable foals - you can get to an outside stallion with better credentials for whom the marketing is already done and who has other foals headed to the track for not much money.

On the mares, Arushi has a nice pedigree. When was her last JC registered foal? Her foals have been disappointing thus far, but she's not a bad mare. Not terribly commercial - especially at a big sale, but she might be useful. I'm basing this on her pedigree, her race record, what she has produced and what her dam and second dam have produced.

One Crazy Lady - has she had any JC registered foals? She's a nice young mare with a nice pedigree. She was a mulitple winner and in the money a lot. She's 1/2 to a couple of very good runners and stakes placed horse. She's worth a shot, especially as a breed to race mare.

Isabella Victoria - my least favorite of the mares. She was the best runner of the group, but her pedigree is very light (not many good runners in it). Her crossed with your stallion would be a very tough sell as a racehorse - it might be the next John Henry, but it would be hard to get someone to buy it unless it really burned up the track. The reason for this is just pedigree (lack of a lot of good runners in the pedigree).

Other analyses you can do if you so choose - especially if you want to look at these mares crossed with your stallion. Cost varies. You can do a nick by either Werk or True Nicks - these look at how sirelines match up. True Nicks is supposed to have more information in their database than Werk. There is a program that looks at inbreeding - Ultimate 2000. There is one that looks at stakes winners from a particular cross - G1Goldmine. Do an online search for any of them. And, there are others, of course and lots of people that you can hire to give you a detailed analysis.

I apologize if I come off as disparaging toward your stallion - I don't mean to be, just trying to be realistic from a racebreeding perspective. Your mares are not bad mares at all and some of them - especially if you have St. Diva! - are really nice. Best of luck to you in whatever you do and if you stand your boy for racebreeding, please let us know so we can watch for his babies and cheer them on!

Thanks a zillion. I really appreciate your taking the time, giving my question so much consideration, and truly appreciate your observations.

The sire was purchased for hunter/jumper babies, and if he can pass on his confirmation, attitude, and size I will be more than happy.

Crazy was in foal when I bought her, unknown to me until she blew up like a balloon that spring. Apparently some horses got loose one night..., anyhow they think the sire was a horse called American Boy. The colt did the splits one day and suffered radial nerve paralysis. We have managed to get him to the point where he can get around, but that is it for him, and I don't think his bloodlines warrant breeding him. I guess we will have to wait and see how he turns out, but I am thinking gelded pasture buddy.

Arushi, has a colt that was running this spring, what he has done I don't know, I am guessing not much notable based on where he was running etc.

I will keep my fingers crossed on the Devils Bag mare!

Thanks again.

halo
Jan. 25, 2008, 07:35 PM
I'll be surprised if you have St. Diva, since an export certificate for her was filed where she was exported to Chile, along with her 2005 colt by Glitterman.

Hauwse
Jan. 25, 2008, 09:50 PM
I'll be surprised if you have St. Diva, since an export certificate for her was filed where she was exported to Chile, along with her 2005 colt by Glitterman.

It would surprise no one more than me!!

Norcrest
Jan. 26, 2008, 02:02 PM
I'm just curious..how tall is One Crazy Lady? We have a 14'3 Awad and I have been told that is pretty average size for his foals??? I have been trying to sell her as a childs horse but people are afraid of her around here since she is a TB LOL!

Hauwse
Jan. 28, 2008, 02:33 PM
I'm just curious..how tall is One Crazy Lady? We have a 14'3 Awad and I have been told that is pretty average size for his foals??? I have been trying to sell her as a childs horse but people are afraid of her around here since she is a TB LOL!

I have not put a stick to her, but she is a tall mare, she has to be a solid 16.3HH. She was a very fine to medium build mare when she came off the track, but she is pretty much a truck now, very deep bodied, with a big engine behind.

Hauwse
Jan. 28, 2008, 02:41 PM
I'll be surprised if you have St. Diva, since an export certificate for her was filed where she was exported to Chile, along with her 2005 colt by Glitterman.

Right you are, apparently a lot of anecdotal nonsense. The crappy part is that since we do not know her sire/dam, or have a clue now, and no registration, the JC is un-willing to do a carte blanche DNA test on her, to determine her bloodlines, unless she is bred.

I don't need them for the hunter/jumper world, but it would sure help with the hunter/jumper breeding program.

Is this not something that comes up every once and blue moon?

halo
Jan. 28, 2008, 04:22 PM
Isn't she tatooed?

Hauwse
Jan. 29, 2008, 04:00 AM
I am afraid not. According to her prior vet, she was with the previous owner since she was an early 2YO. She was injured, running through barbed wire, and as the story goes, that is how the previous owner was able to purchase her.

To me she is still of great value as she is a very talented mare, so either way I have come up roses, but it would be very nice, regardless of her pedigree, to know who she is out of, and it is something I am willing to pay well for to find out.

Texarkana
Jan. 29, 2008, 07:37 AM
I'm just curious..how tall is One Crazy Lady? We have a 14'3 Awad and I have been told that is pretty average size for his foals??? I have been trying to sell her as a childs horse but people are afraid of her around here since she is a TB LOL!

Hmmm, I've had a handful of Awad's and they've all been normal-sized or taller. But if I recall, Awad is pretty short himself.

To the OP- I don't think the JC is necessarily trying to be difficult by refusing to run the DNA. I might be wrong on this, but I don't think it's that easy to just run the DNA point blank to find the sire and dam. You have to have something to compare it to. Say, you can make sure the DNA markers for a particular horse match the reported dam and sire. But to run it with no reference point is extremely time consuming, if not virtually impossible.

Hauwse
Jan. 29, 2008, 04:16 PM
Hmmm, I've had a handful of Awad's and they've all been normal-sized or taller. But if I recall, Awad is pretty short himself.

To the OP- I don't think the JC is necessarily trying to be difficult by refusing to run the DNA. I might be wrong on this, but I don't think it's that easy to just run the DNA point blank to find the sire and dam. You have to have something to compare it to. Say, you can make sure the DNA markers for a particular horse match the reported dam and sire. But to run it with no reference point is extremely time consuming, if not virtually impossible.

Sorry, I did not mean to sound annoyed with them, I am just frustratd, learning lots though, thats for sure.

Yes after digging further in the process I do see that , as you stated, it is not as simple as matching DNA, and they could test, but it lessens the needle in the haystack concept when they can break down the possiblities to the get from a specific sire/dam.

I guess I will have to see if I can find some concrete info. on the mare first, although that may be a needle in the haystack process as well.

Have you had any Awad mares, and if so did you breed any, and what we're their foals like?

Texarkana
Jan. 29, 2008, 04:42 PM
Sorry, I did not mean to sound annoyed with them, I am just frustratd, learning lots though, thats for sure.

Yes after digging further in the process I do see that , as you stated, it is not as simple as matching DNA, and they could test, but it lessens the needle in the haystack concept when they can break down the possiblities to the get from a specific sire/dam.

I guess I will have to see if I can find some concrete info. on the mare first, although that may be a needle in the haystack process as well.

Have you had any Awad mares, and if so did you breed any, and what we're their foals like?

Oh, I didn't think you sounded annoyed. And I didn't mean to sound condescending if it came across that way. It's just so many people don't understand DNA testing. Most people don't realize it's not as simple as looking up a registration number. :winkgrin:

Yes, I've cared for a bunch of Awad mares. But most of them were just coming to breeding age when I knew them. So I'm not much help. I will tell you that on the whole, Awad didn't reproduce his talent, that's for dang sure. It's a shame, I always liked him.