Who rides with a Bereiter?

[ClaraLuisa]

Just wondering, based on the discussion of qualification systems for riders.
How many of us are training with people who have formal qualifications?
Where were they qualified, and at what level?
How did you find them?
What is your experience with them compared to other professionals you've been with?
And (can't help it) what do THEY think of the various rider qualification systems being mooted here?

[Equibrit]

They don't generally fit.

[atr]

I did briefly. It wasn't a happy or productive experience, and I don't care to elaborate about it further.

I'm sure they aren't all like that, but it taught me a very lasting lesson about not just looking at credentials, but looking at the whole package.

[Surreal]

Because I have moved frequently I have trained with many types of qualified trainers-teachers. In general those with formal qualifications were better. This includes British Horse Society and German bereiters and other European equine program graduates.
Some bereiters were better with horses than with people.

[Rhiannonjk]

I've ridden with a German Bereiter and a USDF 2nd level certified instructor. I learned TONS from both of them.

The Bereiter (I cliniced with frequently): Not one for blowing sunshine up your butt. I liked that. When she said "Very Nice," I knew I had really accomplished something. People don't tend to like those types, because she also flat out called people "Sh*tty riders." I took her bluntness and used it as a tool to improve, and would ride with her again any day - and if it was unpleasant, I know she would give ways for me to improve, and I would take those explanations to heart. My horse was young, and she was preparing us to go to the FEI levels in our lower level work. It was a LOT different from the people training me to get, maybe possibly if we're lucky, to third eventually.

The USDF instructor: What I LOVE LOVE LOVE about her, is that she is always studying the sport, always going to clinics to improve, and a lot of that knowledge is in teaching Adult Amateurs. I've ridden with a LOT of trainers, and she has really impressed me with her overall knowledge of the horse, rider, and how to put the two together :) While we aren't preparing my horse for FEI anymore (in her older age, we know that isn't an option) she is doing a great job of preparing us for 4th level, if we ever got that far (again, my horse's physical limitations won't allow that, but then again, she's been great about having honest conversations in that regard, as well)

Overall - the difference in riding with somebody that is "Certified" in some regard, to me, is that they have at least at some point shown extreme interest in learning about the sport. They have gone to national training sessions, they have studied the theory, and they have at some point convinced very highly educated trainers that they really knew what they were doing. I didn't pick either because they had any certification, and it really doesn't mean anything to me, but when riding with them, in my experience, it has been different.

[rileyt]

I have ridden with several (including my current instructor who passed her bereiter exam ages ago and is now so far beyond that its not even an issue).

In general, I have liked all the bereiters I have ridden with, although some are more gifted than others. I think the one thing you can really count on is a good understanding of the training scale... In this country, where so many instructors don't even get understand that much... that's huge.

In general, I have found them to be no-nonsense (although I attribute that more to their German-ness than their bereiter certification).

[mjhco]

One of the three trainers I ride with regularly is a Bereiter Fn.

She is fabulous. Calls a spade a spade. Is wonderful with my horse. Communicates VERY well.

I am fortunate to have these people to work with.

[mbm]

I ride with a Belgian Trainer who is certified with his countries National Body - Basically similar to the German certification system. He is trained in the German system and working with him has been the godsend to my riding.

The few other times I have worked with FN certified folks (clinics etc) I was always impressed with what they could convey in a lesson and how simple it seemed to take the lesson to the basics and create lots of change with "simple" things.

I personally think that the difference between a certified (European) trainer and what we have here in the US is HUGE.

My trainer has trained Multiple horses to GP, worked with Theodoruescu, blah blah.... he is qualified to teach what he is teaching.

He is hidden away and is the best kept secret around here. I found him by a referral form one of his clients.

I would follow him anywhere pretty much and have already moved to work with him :)

[RonaldGroen]

Can you explain the word Bereiter to me ?

[ClaraLuisa]

It basically means "trainer."
In the German certification system it requires formal education, testing and apprenticeship before you can use the word (the better-informed can probably tell you exactly how it works; I know there have been some changes in categories and requirements in recent years.) In any case, it's quite rigorous.
As has been noted, other European countries have similar systems. I don't know (wish I did) exactly how these systems compare to USDF certification requirements. All I can say as an ignorant amateur is that the German-trained folks I've run into train and teach in a very consistent way.
This seemed to me to have some tangential relevance to the mishegas about rider qualification:-)

[ClaraLuisa]

Ronald, seeing your location, were you pulling my leg? I'm famously humour-deficient, so I have to ask!

[CatOnLap]

I audited the Berieter final exam course in Warendorf about 10 years ago. A year later I did my CEF level 1 coaching exam.
I found the programs to be very similar in content and requirements at the time. In fact, at the time, canada and Germany had a treaty which basically allowed the two levels to be considered equivalent.
The German program had the distinct advantage of providing FEI level trained stallions to every exam candidate, and very high level instruction, whereas in the Canadian system, one had to supply one's own horses and seek instruction willy nilly where one could find it.
But the exam candidates were held to similar high standards, which makes me think the canadian program at the time was harder than the german one. The canadian program also put more emphasis on the teaching aspect whereas the german program put more emphasis on one's ability to ride. Still, both exams required a 3'6" course and a basic level dressage test.

But people get all gaga when they see "Bereiter FN" after someone's name. Its a very basic qualification. Some are good, some are not so good. Just like CEF- pardon me- EC qualified coaches.

[Dave Thind]

[QUOTE=CatOnLap;2969367]I audited the Berieter final exam course in Warendorf about 10 years ago. A year later I did my CEF level 1 coaching exam.
I found the programs to be very similar in content and requirements at the time. In fact, at the time, canada and Germany had a treaty which basically allowed the two levels to be considered equivalent.

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For more information on equivalencies or what a Bereiter (or other formally educated rider) is qualified to do, you can visit the website for the International Group For Equestrian Qualifications: http://www.igeq.org/.

So as you can see, a Canadian level I (Or “level I” in most other countries) is equivalent to the German Trainer C, German Reitwart or German Fachsbungsleiter and not Bereiter.

If you choose to take your education in Germany for example, there are/were many options that give the same level, or internationally recognized outcome. In fact, the term Bereiter that everyone knows so well was replaced by Prerdewirt in the 1970s but since that word is world recognized, successful graduates receive two separate certificates, but the program and exam is now officially known as Pferdewirt by the FN. Another equal option is the German Trainer B licence. This does not require the internship, but places an additional emphasis on teaching.

I think that all the German programs are wonderful. Graduates fully understand that system that that German certified trainers and riders have become famous for (YES, there is formal training and exams required to move up the levels!) fully. Even more important the phscial and psychological well being of horses is preserved with classical and complete training, which includes dressage AND jumping for ever horse – even up to the master level one must do dressage, show jumping and eventing and this in my opinion, is required to be called a trainer. For this reason, the Bereiter is only formally qualified up to second level, however many have done a much higher level based on preceding training. So the personal option to specialize is there, but in Germany, one can not call themselves a Trainer or even "Berufsreiter-Pro. Rider" without having practical experience in both jumping and dressage.

I myself completed the Trainer A training and exams. While programs in other countries may be good, there is no comparison to what the Germans have - they are very, very fortunate to have all this available to them.

If I could stay in Germany long enough, I would like to complete the Pferdewirschafsmesiter training and exams. Although the Trainer A is a considerably high level (the highest of the three international levels), it is only the Pferdewirschafsmesiter that is qualified (in paper) to teach/ride dressage and jumping at the ‘S’ level (just before and including FEI) – one of the reasons why graduates are awarded the title of International Expert.

Hope this answers some questions.

Dave Thind

[Walnut Farm]

Rode with several over the years, and my current one is Danish beriter. Our lessons are very basic in gerneral, and he is a super rider himself !

All good experinces for me!

Linda

[egontoast]

For more information on equivalencies or what a Bereiter (or other formally educated rider) is qualified to do, you can visit the website for the International Group For Equestrian Qualifications: http://www.igeq.org/.

So as you can see, a Canadian level I (Or “level I” in most other countries) is equivalent to the German Trainer C, German Reitwart or German Fachsbungsleiter and not Bereiter.



Thanks DT, but can you or anyone else direct us to a summary of the qualification system. I didn't see a link there but didn't open every link either.
.
Level one coach in Canada is very basic entry level coaching.

[Dirigo]

The Canadian program definately is not harder then the German one !!!


It takes three long years... you get picked by talent, and most kids never make it into "Bereiter", and instead have to become "Pferdewirt", or "Zuchtwirt" ect... fancy words for professional groom and breed specialist.
Bereiters go to school twice a week for half a day, and work all the other time in the barn learning the skill.
The actual testing is grueling both theoretical and practical.
If you're lucky, and you make your bereiter in the dressage circuit, someone lends you a REALLY special jumper, so that you pass the four+ feet course you have to jump, to pass.
If you're a jumper, then you're lucky if someone lends you the horse, to be able to do a PSG test with.
It's hard, hard work and it's easily failed.
If you want make your "Meister", the master title, you add five years to all of that

[Jim Knopf]

Cat--a bereiter has much more than "a very basic qualification" (as has been pointed out).

Egon--try the German FN website, there is a lot of information there.

[Touchstone Farm]

I've worked for five years with a German trainer who has the Pferdewirtschaftsmeister degree. I've also worked with another German trainer who is fantastic as well (for 10+ years). And I clinic occasionally with American clinicians.

Overall, I've gotten good help from most clinicians and have learned something from everyone, but what I like about the two Germans I work with is that they have been brought up through the system to be trainers so they not only are well versed in teaching, but can get on a horse and train them -- awesome and inspiring what they can do in the saddle. In other words, their priority is not for themselves to be in the show ring or to do all the training, but to teach you how to train your horse and if the show ring is a goal, to get you to the show ring, not themselves (so no conflict of interest there in terms of looking for their next horse prospect or sponsor). In addition, they don't care if they are "popular," they just want their students to learn and, boy, do they PUSH you! Over the years, I've seen several riders bow out of riding with them at future clinics because they couldn't take it, physically or ego-wise, or future lessons were "discontinued" because the riders were argumentative, too rough with the horses, wouldn't listen -- always had a reason for why their horse did this or that (so why do they come for lessons, I always wonder?!), never did their "homework," etc. and the trainer just basically said it wasn't a good match, time for the rider to move on to someone else. They, like most everyone else I'm ridden with (I'm careful who I pick), have been willing to work with any level rider on any type/breed horse; however, they are honest with what they feel the limitations are of the horse, and if your goals are beyond that of the horse, when the time comes, will tell you it's time to move on to your next teacher.

Overall, I've been very "lucky" with who I've gotten to work with, German or American. Too bad work interferes with my riding -- no doubt I'd be further along in my abilities if all I had to do was focus on riding!

RE: I haven't had a chance to ask one of the Germans about the qualification system, but the other thinks it's not a good idea yet, that dressage is such a young sport here, we don't have the German infrastructure to be similar, and we should be more encouraging in this sport. And believe me, in my lessons, he doesn't sugar-coat my riding abilities!! : - ) So...encouraging, yes; sugar coating, nope!