Dressage worthy??

[lexhex]

I'd like a little critique on this horse for lower level dressage potential.

His history is this:
Coming 7 yr old Friesian gelding with limited formal under saddle training. Was in Rose Parade '05 and '06 under saddle (so assuming a little bomb proof). Has been a driving horse since then for past year. Not under saddle since. The video shows only very brief moments of a canter (so little tricky to assess all 3 gaits!).... (price is v reasonable)

Me: I am green to Dressage (have been riding in some form or another: H/J Eng Pleasure/trails/polo for almost 30yrs)... have been looking for a mount that is level headed more than can go to FEI. My goals... have the potential to get to 2nd...3rd... I dunno, mostly just for fun.

Am currently looking into a few trainers and haven't settled on one I can send out to look at this guy... I suppose it depends on this feedback.

Any feedback would certainly be MUCH appreciated!!!
Thanks in advance!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWZyJR1UYl8

:)

[lexhex]

PS the video "out and about" is the same horse; Toby is a different horse.

Thanks again!

[slc2]

You will get your share of 'he's beautiful, get him!!' from friesian lovers. However my response is pretty coldly practical. My advice is to first find an instructor/trainer, and THEN find a horse WITH that instructor/trainer. To buy a horse and then find an instructor/trainer can cause a LOT of trouble. First of all, you can get 'taken' with the purchase, buying a horse that has been medicated or just isn't safe or trainable..or just can't do what you want him to do. Next, you can wind up with a horse that the instructor feels is unsuitable (sure, go to another trainer, but if they ALL say the horse is unsuitable, there you are with a problem).

My advice? Get a trained dressage horse (or one with good basic saddle training that will translate easily to dressage), it doesn't have to be trained to a high level, in fact that isn't advised as a good way to start out. A horse trained to training or first level with local show experience is a great way to start out and they can be had for very reasonable prices right now.

For this situation, I would say no to any horse with such limited time under saddle, and I would not recommend you buy a horse that you can not see being ridden, because if you do not see him being ridden there is no guarantee he can be ridden. Even if he can be ridden by a skilled trainer, a horse with such limited training under saddle doesn't seem appropriate.

I would also recommend (and a lot of others would too, though some of course will disagree with this), to never buy an adult riding horse that you cannot ride when you evaluate him. One needs to see if the gaits of the horse are gaits the rider can sit too. The horse may be too reactive for you, or not reactive enough. He may be skittish outdoors, or he may pull too hard at the reins for you. Riding a horse gives a much better feel of what he's like and how he reacts to you and how you react to him.

I'm a skeptic when it comes to most of the information about a horse's past and believe in believing what I see, not what I'm told. For example, you did not see the horse being ridden, but you also did not see him driven. Therefore, there is no proof the horse is broke to drive. For all I know, the horse is broke to run around at the end of a longe line, and that's it, or he cannot be ridden at all(problems in the back, bucking, whatever, it's not rare).

Yes, I'm a skeptic. But that's because it is not rare for a horse to be sold with oh...let's say a somewhat inaccurate description of what he is or what he's done. I believe what I see.

In this case, a horse that is not being ridden, being evaluated for a dressage horse for someone with no experience training, training dressage horses or retraining harness horses to be dressage horses, which is not always easy. I feel that for a person in your situation, it's right out of court right there, long before looking at how its gaits or conformation are. Sorry. I'm sure you will hear many people here argue very angrily with me that I'm wrong, and the horse is gorgeous, and you should get him.

[friesian4me]

I think you need to decide if you can afford to put him in full training for a year or so. Then I think you should consider him. I like his attentiveness and he appears willing and forward. Video is too fuzzy to get a great idea of his gaits but they seem fine. You should pick a trainer and have him evaluated.

[c5rose]

slc2 gives great advice. This horse probably will not be the ideal mount for what you're looking for.

And I've been completely cured from wanting a friesian, and this is why: Over the last year, I was looking to replace a horse that I lost to colic. I wanted a friesian. I rode MANY over the summer, even some of the "forward-moving" ones. To me, they felt like TANKS. I rode green ones, and I rode schooled ones. You have no clue the level of disappointment I felt, since I thought a friesian would be my dreamhorse. I ended up with a fresh off the track OTTB.

Plus, do you REALLY want to take care of those feathers? They're high maintenance horses.

The horse in the video looks absolutely gorgeous, but being new to dressage, your best bet would be to get a nice 1st or 2nd level schooled horse to teach you a few things.

From someone who's been in your shoes, this is my opinion.

[mademoiselle]

I have trained a couple of Friesians and I would say that they are not the easiest horses to learn dressage on.
Canter can be hard with some of them and if this one has a driving background, it's probably going to take a while to school him to the point where you will be able to enjoy, 2nd and 3rd level stuff.

I'm not saying that Friesans can't do dressage, I'm not bashing the breed, just probably not the kind of horse I would start with.

If you like the baroque style, I would go for PRE or a Lusitano. Some can be tensed and tight on the hot side, but many of them are amateur friendly.

If not, go for a horse that is already going and can teach you the ropes :yes:

[egontoast]

You will get your share of 'he's beautiful, get him!!'

I'm sure you will hear many people here argue very angrily with me that I'm wrong, and the horse is gorgeous, and you should get him.

Good grief. As usual, you underestimate the knowledge and perceptions of other people.

Although not the case with all Freisians, it looks like canter will be a big issue with this horse. He has a big carriage type trot (although less out behind than some) and the very upright neck (although there are signs he might learn to go in a more connected way.) BUT the canter might be the biggest challenge. Looks like she had to take him off the lunge to try to get a canter and she had to work very very hard to get a tiny bit of canter which was disunited initially.

if the horse can't easily offer walk, trot and canter on or off the lunge, you've got a problem.


PS he looks like a sweet guy, though, for some other discipline.

[Petstorejunkie]

He can be a nice horse all day long, but not a nice horse for your situation. I think that is what you are looking at here. If you are new to dressage you'll want a horse that at least knows a little bit more than you going into this.
My experience with horses who's carrier has been driving before being trained under saddle (and i am not speaking in the context of long lining, but rather you are hooked to a cart and worked, that's your job) is that they can be very stiff thru the ribcage and take alot of work to get them to loosen their backs and become supple.
You money in my opinion would be better spent on a horse that has competed thru first level. If you like friesians, then get a friesian that has competed thru first level.

[Kimberlee]

I would hope with 30 years riding experience you would know if you could "handle" him or not. I think you are smart enough to know what you are getting yourself into. I think some of these reactions are a little overboard, but then that is what happens when people assume they know more about the OP than the OP posted. Enough on that soap box...

This guy does look a little rump high, which he shouldn't be at 6.5 years-old. So, he may or may not even out, but that would make if very hard on him and on you. He appears to be more of a carriage type fressian conformation wise. Like an earlier poster said, with his big trot and very upright neck carriage. I would probably pass on him as I have seen some really nice riding type fressians, and there does seem to be a difference in the natural conformation between the two types.

Having worked with horses, after they had been established in driving, it can be very hard for them to understand cantering under saddle. And it takes a while for them to get confortable enough for you to start working on the quality of the canter. That can be very frustrating and/or time-consuming. Though it sounds like you have the horse experience to get through that.

Go take some dressage lessons on a school horse. That will help you get the feel a lot faster than on a green bean, and it will help you understand what it feels like. It will also help you decide which trainer you want to go with. I know from making the switch to dressage, that I wish I had taken more school horse lessons, rather than just struggling with my mare. Neither of us understood what we were trying to do. Once, I took a couple lessons on another horse, it was soooo much easier with her because I had clue of what I was doing.

[WBLover]

I would have to agree with everyone, even though I own a half-Freisian. He looks very carriage-y, lots of knee and hock action but goes up-down and not forward. That trot will be VERY hard to sit also.

If you like Friesians and have a limited budget, try looking at Friesian crosses or draft crosses, you can get them for much less than a WB or WB cross and many do very well in dressage and the lower levels should not be a problem for one. But look for a good canter and a trot that you can sit, it will make life much easier on you! And get a coach that can help you evaluate said horse's suitability for you.

[kip]

Fresians are a wonderful and fun breed to work with but you would most likely be facing some big challenges. I just spent the summer showing a Fresian that I took from being a carriage horse in Europe to a dressage horse, it was tough but gratifying experience. The first challenge was teaching him to use his body differently, carriage horses are used to pulling not pushing off the hind end. The second challenge was getting some ability to collect. Even in a first level test you are required to show that your horse has some ability to collect ie. going from a lengthened trot to a working trot or a lengthened canter to a working canter. My guy had the tendency to want to shorten his neck instead of taking the weight onto his hind end. The third biggest challenge was keeping him energized. They get tired faster than other horses and they don't handle the heat as well either. My guy was about as fit as he could be but it didn't matter, if we were at a show and it was warm out I knew I would be in for a more difficult ride.

I think in your case if you have a good trainer to help you for a long time, no timeline for getting into the show arena, and just always wanted the chance to own and love a Fresian than go for it! They are an awsome breed.

However, if you want a more straightfoward, less challenging path to the upper levels then go for a horse that has some more time in the dressage arena.

[Anselcat]

What others said. Why start out your dressage adventure with a horse who has some things that will make it more difficult (lack of saddle time, possible canter issues, naturally high 'carriage type' head set). -- Same disclaimer as above, not bashing Friesians, my comments are specific to this situation --.

He is beautiful and I'm guessing the price is tempting, but IMHO, there are others out there.

[SillyHorse]

You will get your share of 'he's beautiful, get him!!'
I'm sure you will hear many people here argue very angrily with me that I'm wrong, and the horse is gorgeous, and you should get him.
He's beautiful, get him!! I am arguing very angrily :mad: with slc2 that she is wrong, and the horse is gorgeous, and you should get him.

:lol::lol::lol::rolleyes::lol::lol::lol:

[lexhex]

You are all fabulous! Thank you ever so much for all your input!

I am looking at several different horses of varying levels of training and this one caught my eye (price, beauty, and from what I am told about his personality). So tempting when the price is low. (But I know, pay now or pay later!);)
I also saw the post on driving dressage horses so I thought it was interesting... can we go the other way?

So I'm trying to decide if its worth the airfare to go have a look or not, ya know?
So keep the thoughts coming:yes:

[Peggy]

Horse has limited under saddle experience, let alone dressage experience. A woman at my barn who had two Friesians said that the one that was driven in his past pulled a lot harder (may be result of driving, maybe not). Lack of good canter, esp lack of moment of suspension will make flying changes hard, if not impossible. You will need changes at third level. They don't look like they are easy to ride--above woman looked like she really had to work when she rode and she is an excellent rider. Based on ads in my area, they aren't inexpensive horses, compared to others with with similar training and other features.

[InsideLeg2OutsideRein]

agree with others about his carriage look, which he's really not to blame for :winkgrin: I've ridden some Friesians with a dream trot, and one with a bone-jarring trot. I think it's hard to tell from the video how this horse's trot will be. I liked the fact that he did relax his neck and stretch down, although he got punished for it by the handler every time by pulling him.

Agree that the canter was really unbalanced but if this horse hasn't done much work under saddle, that's not unusual. It takes strength to build that balance and it comes with work.

Honestly, what bugged me the most about this is the person lunging him, or rather chasing him around!

In any case, good luck with your decision and your next horse :D