Feeding smarter in light of hay issues... [Archive]

pintopiaffe

Jan. 24, 2008, 09:57 PM

While we are not out of hay yet, it is going fast. My hay guy is selling as far south as NJ. (I'm in Downeast MAINE!) He has been warning me since November that he does not think he will make it through June for me. (should be noted, I usually buy ahead, but needed to fix the truck to get the hay HOME... :sigh: )

I usually feed free choice (local, grass) hay, MVP ration balancer (24% Protein, 3% fat, 11% Fiber, and NSC around 16%) , and oats; Beet pulp & oil, BOSS & Flax.

So I am thinking of rationing somewhat. They usually stuff their faces in a roundbale whenever they wish. That is changing to hay being fed out 3x/ day, plus 2x/day meals. I am trying to keep just enough in front of them that there are scraps left at the next feeding...

Top it off, Oats are unavailable at the moment. Which started me thinking... which of course, is dangerous.

I can feed Vintage Victory, which is a lovely low NSC 10/10/11 mix. I can up the protein for the young'uns and broodies with Alfalfa pellets, **which ups the fiber content quite nicely as well.**

Ahhh... but then I've got a fortified grain, not being fed at recommended amounts, and now I've got to top dress vitamins/minerals. Which is the whole wonderful thing about Ration Balancers and plain grains. :uhoh:

:sigh:

There is part of me sitting here in sub zero temperatures, thinking that the low starch/high fat Vintage Victory is a Good Thing.

None of it saves me any money... Slight savings on the VV & Falf vs. MVP & Oats--but I'll spend that in a top dress vitamin/mineral. Rice Bran already in the VV, I might-could cut out the flax and save...

It just seems to me that adding another pound or two of fiber is a good thing, in light of the hay. And it would be redundant to do the alfalfa *and* the MVP, though I could, of course. But then we'd start to be thinking about too much protein...

Guess I'm just thinking out loud and would love some objective opinions.
I have a fabulous nutritionist that can add the numbers up for me so I'm no OD-ing or starving on any vits/mins, and can do the protein math... But in the meantime, the cold could've seriously frozen my brain and the logic could be severely flawed... Whaddya think? ;)

thumbsontop

Jan. 25, 2008, 07:09 AM

I'm interested in hearing what you find come up with. I'm looking at my shrinking hay supply every morning in the barn KNOWING I'm going to run out this year - and I've already bought an extra 75 bales this year. The drought in our area affected me so much more than I expected it to. We usually have adequate pasture until the end of January. This year we began running out in mid-December AND I have 4 less horses this year - plus one was pregnant last year!

The one plus is that because I can offer little grass to nibble on I really don't need to worry about the pasture condition and can most of leave them out 24x7. The savings on bedding should leave some extra hay money. Plus I have 2 obese horses that bury their heads in the hay pile and don't come up for air all day. They are eating WAY more than they need to and are about to find themselves in a stall with a small hole haynet when the others are out.

tabula rashah

Jan. 25, 2008, 07:39 AM

Here is my solution so far. I also have pretty much fed free choice hay for years. But with hay prices, I just can't feed 7 horses free choice hay. I found a supplier that has very nice double compressed mixed hay (alf/ tim). I feed 6 lbs of compressed hay @ 6am with 2.5 lbs of TC Growth, Complete or Senior (all very high in fiber). Then @ 3pm they get 2.5 lbs of aforementioned feed and 3 punds compressed hay. Then @ 9pm they get 10 lbs reg grass hay. This seems to be working well. The only thing I top dress with is extra biotin (all mine are barefoot). I also only have one that can't have enough feed to meet nutrient requirements (he would turn into a balloon!) so he gets a handful of the TC Complete with a vitamin/ min supplement and 2 lbs hay stretcher or beet pulp depending on what is avail at the feed store.

I would say one of the biggest hay savers is multiple meals and weigh out your hay!

MistyBlue

Jan. 25, 2008, 08:02 AM

Agreed...I weighed out my hay...and feed multiple times per day. I make sure they clean up between feedings except for the barest minimum left on the ground. I use less hay this way and the horses are getting all they need. Nothing tends to get pooped on, dragged around, slept on or peed on.
I hay 4x per day...7am when they go out, noon, 4 pm and 8 pm. At the 4 and 8 pms they get their hay in their stalls. 4 pm is only a flake per horse (about 5 lbs) so that I'm not picking out leftover hay mixed in the bedding at the 8 pm night feeding. At night feeding they get a lot more to last overnight...and I sprinkle the hay with a watering can to dampen it a little bit...then I sprinkle on a handful of salt and sugar mixed. (mostly salt) That gets them drinking more overnight and they don't want to waste any hay since it has a sweet flavor too.
The mare gets 55 lbs of hay per day and the gelding gets 25-30 lbs daily. (mare is bigger and a harder keeper than gelding) They honestly don't need any more and if I free choice feed them they don't move off the hay all day (I prefer them to move around to keep their guts moving...and moving from pile to pile of hay isn't enough movement) and they waste a ton of it.
I also feed VV...they're staying in great weight (I keep them a tad heavier in winter).

Oldenburg Mom

Jan. 25, 2008, 08:07 AM

I'm interested in hearing what you find come up with. I'm looking at my shrinking hay supply every morning in the barn KNOWING I'm going to run out this year ...

Hey, (or maybe I should say hay!!! :lol:) thumbsontop, I started a thread over on the Hay forum. I'd like to get some people to "band" together for the hay auction in Hinton. It's a hike, but the price is around 4:50 - 5.00 a small square. If you're interested, please come join us on the Hay forum. Or any other NoVa person.

Bogie

Jan. 25, 2008, 10:56 AM

I have always fed free choice hay . . . for now I've replaced #10/horse with a combo of alfalfa/timothy cubes and/or hay stretcher. I also feed hay in an outdoor rack. Horses clean it up!

sublimequine

Jan. 25, 2008, 11:19 AM

While I think 24/7 free range hay is ideal for many horses, I don't think it is as OMG ABSOLUTELY VITAL FOR LIFE as some people claim. A horse isn't going to die if it doesn't have feed in front of it at all times. I mean if folks want to rationalize it with 'that's how wild horses live'... wild horses aren't eating 24/7, either. They have to search for food in the winter. So it's hardly 'free range' for them.

For me, feeding hay 3x a day suffices just fine. 4x a day of course is even better, but at boarding situations or at large-scale operations, that gets difficult. My mare doesn't get free-range hay. She gets hay 3x or 4x a day. She has plenty of forage in her diet, is happy, healthy, and a bit FAT right now! :D

So the 'moral of the story'? :lol: Free range hay is great, but not always practical. :)

hundredacres

Jan. 25, 2008, 11:44 AM

I am feeding alfalfa cubes and beet pulp to all 6 of my horses right now. They have been on it for 2 months and the only one that has "changed" is the pony because I am monitoring his weight closely and want him a tad-bit slimmer (he's Thelwell). I do 1-2% body weight total, depending on the horse. They get that in a ration of 70/30 cubes and beet pulp (plus minerals, supps and one is on a rice bran product).

All are in excellent weight and their temperments and energy levels are good.

hundredacres

Jan. 25, 2008, 11:48 AM

The mare gets 55 lbs of hay per....They honestly don't need any more .

God I hope she doesn't need anymore! Thats an amazing amount of hay per day. I had a Percheron here that stayed in good weight on 30 pounds/day.

pintopiaffe

Jan. 25, 2008, 11:53 AM

hundredacres--exclusively? As in--NO hay? Or are you feeding some hay too?

How often are you feeding the beep/falf?

I guess I"m more interested in how to keep forage in their belly and keep them busy from an ulcer and boredom standpoint... I *know* I can keep up adequate nutrition.

Anyone care to comment on the fortified plus alfalfa vs. the MVP part of it? That's what has me stumped, really.

Of course, I can always switch and switch back... but I like to CHEW on these things. :lol:

shakeytails

Jan. 25, 2008, 12:10 PM

I've been rationing hay since summer. They get enough, but not free choice like usual. I'd guess they're getting 1/2 to 2/3, depending on the horse, of what I'd feed in a normal hay year. I've slightly increased grain and added soyhull pellets (about 2#) for the adult horses as a hay stretcher. A couple of the horses in the outside gang are not quite as fat as I'd like, but they're not poor, either. The inside bunch have maintained weight very well, but they're getting the higher quality square bales.

I recently bought a bag a beet pulp to try for the outside horses. I'm not feeding a lot of it, about 2 cups dry per horse. I do add water, but I don't measure it wet. What I've noticed is that they are not as greedy about hay, and don't seem to just stand at the round bale and eat constantly. I believe feeding the BP is cost effective. And I kinda like feeding them warm meals on cold days. :)

Another thing we've done this year is feed round bales one at a time rather than put 2 or 3 out at once. Yeah, we have to fire up the tractor more often, but there is a whole lot less wasted hay than usual.

hundredacres

Jan. 25, 2008, 12:13 PM

pintopiaffe, I am out of hay. No hay. Well, I have an absolute emergency stash for frigid days (like today) but that is it. We have large pastures though...and the horses can go out and graze through the snow if they chose - it's 30 acres of dead forage under there, but it keeps their gut moving between meals. I feed 3x a day - alfalfa in a.m, and p.m. and the beet pulp in the afternoon. On days like today I feed them that plus free choice grass hay. This is about the 5th day this winter that I've given them hay in addition to the 3 meals.

BTW, it is important to not confuse cubes with pellets (for anyone who thinks they are inetrchangable). The pellets lack stem langth necassary for gut function....cubes maintain just the right stem length for gut mobility. Also pellets have additives necassary for the processing, and cubes are 100% hay.

Lookout

Jan. 25, 2008, 12:20 PM

'that's how wild horses live'... wild horses aren't eating 24/7, either. They have to search for food in the winter. So it's hardly 'free range' for them.

It is 'free range' for them. That's what free range is. They eat on the move.

Bogie

Jan. 25, 2008, 12:41 PM

BTW, it is important to not confuse cubes with pellets (for anyone who thinks they are inetrchangable). The pellets lack stem langth necassary for gut function....cubes maintain just the right stem length for gut mobility. Also pellets have additives necassary for the processing, and cubes are 100% hay.

This is a very good point. Hay cubes can be substituted directly for hay; you are supposed to limit hay pellets to 50% of their "forage".

If hay continues to be scarce, I plan to feed a higher percentage of hay cubes and hope to give them some hay along with them. I soak the cubes in the morning so they get some extra water but I feed them dry at other times . . . the cubes I get are small and crumbly, and since my horses take their time eating I've never had a problem with choke.

murphyluv

Jan. 25, 2008, 02:06 PM

I've worked at a barn where OMG they had to have hay in front of them 24/7 or they might pass out (despite the fact that there was usually still a pile in front of them-- they just wanted MORE and were spoiled...) (wonder what THAT BO is doing now..hehehe)
and I've also worked and boarded a barn where the horses got 2 flakes 8 am and 4 pm or so and that was IT.
Where I'm currently working we've tweaked quite a bit, and we're actually using LESS hay with less waste- you just have to constantly monitor. If it gets colder, they usually eat another bale per day. We also are anal about raking up ALL the loose hay, going through iffy bales and finding the good stuff. As long as they have enough hay, and enough in the pasture to nibble on, if there is a moldy spot we missed, they won't eat it. They're pretty smart. I usually go through the next morning and pick up anything like that (they're on 24/7 turnout).
You also have to remember that it's about 6-8 hours where if they don't have any food, that's when they start to develop ulcers- from what I've heard. I'm sure it varies per horse, but it's not a crisis situation if they're not eating something for an hour or two, or just picking up the scraps from the previous meal.

hundredacres

Jan. 25, 2008, 02:19 PM

If they are supposed to develop ulcers at 6-8 hours from not eating........wow...that means I'd have to feed when I went to bed, get 5-7 hours of sleep and feed immediatly again (like at 8 pm and then again at 2-4 am). That would be hard. I feed at 8pm and at 6a.m (and again at 3 pm). Somehow they have managed. Thank goodness.

Tory Relic

Jan. 25, 2008, 02:34 PM

I am feeding additional beet pulp. If it gets to the point I can't get hay, my options are to feed more of the complete feed, more beet pulp, and/or add hay cubes. If it comes down to brass tacks, I can let her graze in a field that has dried grass that was about a foot tall in the summer.

flyingchange

Jan. 25, 2008, 02:48 PM

J Swan

Jan. 25, 2008, 03:12 PM

This is the first time I've ever had to use soaked hay cubes. (Triple Crown)

Big thumbs up. Easy to handle and store, and no waste.

I'm still feeding hay; the cubes are merely to supplement the hay that I have.

Their body conditions are just right.

touchstone-

Jan. 25, 2008, 03:16 PM

One more idea to throw out there: hay stretcher.

Works well for one of mine who doesn't like beet pulp. Not good as a complete substitute, but it might be a good thing to add to the mix since it's not too expensive.

Auventera Two

Jan. 25, 2008, 03:33 PM

At night feeding they get a lot more to last overnight...and I sprinkle the hay with a watering can to dampen it a little bit...then I sprinkle on a handful of salt and sugar mixed. (mostly salt) That gets them drinking more overnight and they don't want to waste any hay since it has a sweet flavor too.

If you have to water your hay with a watering can and then top dress it in salt and sugar just to make them eat it............they ain't hungry! :eek:

Wow, I could not imagine. :lol:

Hundredacres - My little Arab eats around 40 lbs of hay per day and she is far from fat. :lol: She's a bit of a hard keeper plus with work, she can REALLY eat. Also she's up to eating a whole 5 gallon bucket full of soaked beet pulp at night in addition to about 3 flakes alfalfa and 2 flakes of grass. During the day they get just hay outside. I don't feed beet pulp or grain or anything in the morning. Of course when there's pasture, she's a much easier keeper. It's the winter that's a little tougher for her.

Mine dig through the snow too. I don't really have a hay problem here, but I am rationing just for cost reasons. I'm using more beet pulp than I did last year, and a couple pounds of alfalfa cubes soaked along with it too every day. I've never been a grain person, but they're all getting a couple cups in with the beet pulp. Also some black sunflower seeds.

Lookout

Jan. 25, 2008, 03:47 PM

Mine no longer get to park themselves at a rounbale and gorge. I ration timothy off of a rounbale and give it to them at 9 AM and 5PM. They also each get about 10 lbs of third cutting alfalfa/orchard hay per day.

They are all restricted to bluestone lots and 2 small sacrifice paddocks - no access to grass/paddocks for now.

I've also stopped buying Ultium. The price has gotten out of hand. Am using Co-Op feeds now.

The horses all act like they are starving between feedings ... but they are all FAT!

How long does the hay last between feeding, IOW how long do they go without eating?

This is not directed at you, but fat horses who act like they're starving may really be hungry. When they go more than 2-3 hrs without food the body does go into 'starvation' mode, slows down metabolism and the horses can get fat without overeating. (This is the same phenomenon seen in humans who diet and diet but get fatter and fatter).

Not saying this applies to your horses but generally horses shouldn't go 8-12 hrs without food.

flyingchange

Jan. 25, 2008, 08:01 PM

When I say "fat," I am kidding. They are all in good weight. You can see pix of them here:

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?username=flyingchange

Willy's pix need to be updated as those were taken about 2 years ago when I first got him in.

They get lots of hay. Believe me. They each get about 3 lbs of alfalfa/orch btw 7-7:30AM, along with feed. Then each get a pile of timothy at aroun 9AM. Then they get another serving of alfalfa/orch (around 3 lbs) at around 12PM. Then PM feed at 3PM with 3 lbs of alf. Then around 5PM they all get another pile of timothy.

I usually go back out around 9PM and throw a bit more timothy or alfalfa, depending on how lazy I'm feeling (alfalfa is easer because it's in squares).

But if i don't go back out at 9PM ... they survive ... somewhow....

pintopiaffe

Jan. 25, 2008, 09:13 PM

keep in mind, that's 6-8 hrs of EMPTY stomach, not neccesarily "no food."

If I feed just before I leave for work at 1400... they will eat their grain... and then wander over to the hay, but not really tuck into it for another hour or two... by the time they finish the hay, it's probably 2100 (as evidenced on nights off) and then they're still digesting that for another couple of hours... I'm home again to feed at 02:30.

Would I prefer to keep forage in front of them constantly? You betcha. But hay is more precious than even oil at the moment. :(

NC Trail Girl

Jan. 28, 2008, 02:19 PM

I guess I'm not one of the 'OMG they need hay' crowd...

My horses haven't had any hay (to speak of) in almost 2 yrs! My allergic pony taught us that horses don't need hay to survive.

This is my feeding regimine for all my horses:

5am - 2 sc complete feed
7:30am - 2 sc BP + 1 sc Alf Cubes + 1/2 sc of Hay stretcher (soaked)
3:30pm - 2 sc complete feed
8:00pm - 2 sc BP + 1 sc Alf Cubes + 1/2 sc Hay strecher. (soaked)

My horses age range from 9mos to 30+ yrs. All are doing just fine.
I do keep about 10 bales in the barn for freezing nights, but that's it. I have 'maybe' used 20 bales this whole year for 7 horses.

I also have NO pasture, I'm talking my pasture is rocks.. Period..

I just wanted to post this so ppl know that you CAN survive without any hay.

Here is a pix of the 30+ pony:
http://www.horseyville.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10005/normal_DSCF3558.JPG (http://www.horseyville.com/cpg/displayimage.php?pos=-3411)

And this is our pasture, you can see my 22 yo QH on the left:
http://www.horseyville.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10005/normal_DSCF3220.JPG (http://www.horseyville.com/cpg/displayimage.php?pos=-3271)

Apparently I like booty pix of my boy, but you can see he's shiny and fat and he has no health issues:
http://www.horseyville.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10005/normal_DSCF2121.JPG (http://www.horseyville.com/cpg/displayimage.php?pos=-2871)

This is my main riding mare.. she rides every weekend and camp a few times a month.. she holds her weight just fine and is even a bit pudgy:
http://www.horseyville.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10005/normal_DSCF3647%7E0.JPG (http://www.horseyville.com/cpg/displayimage.php?pos=-3505)

BTW, this is soooo much easier on our camping/pack trips, to just be able to bring grain stuff and not have to haul hay.. Oh you can't imagine the convenience :)

Amwrider

Jan. 28, 2008, 02:37 PM

Right now I have switched over to beet pulp in the AM with electrolytes and minerals top dressed and a cup of BOSS. They get a heavy flake of hay at lunch, evening they get Horseman's Edge 10% pellets, then at lights-out they get hay, usually 2 or 3 flakes.

On M-W-F they get alfalfa cubes instead of the flake of hay.

The horses are staying in good weight, have shiney coats, I think I have done a pretty good job of meeting basic nutritional needs, AND on a barn of 19 horses I think I have saved $400-$500 per month on the feed and hay bill.

Before, I was feeding hay and the pellets with only the electrolytes and minerals. Going to the beet pulp, BOSS and cubes has made a big difference and I don't have to go up on my board. :)

Edited to add that in FL, I am paying $8.00 per bale of Tifton 44 hay, a Bermuda grass. :sad:

J Swan

Jan. 28, 2008, 02:54 PM

Cute horses.

But you are feeding them "hay". Cubes, BP and hay stretcher are forms of fiber.

If you weren't providing enough fiber for your horses - they'd be dead.

If your method works for your horses, their nutritionally needs are met - then that's great! (and you're right - much easier to pack for)

But they are still getting fiber in the form of BP, cubes and the stretcher pellets.

This is the first year I've used cubes - I am very pleased with them. Much easier to store, less expensive, and no waste - not one bit. I'm using them a bit differently than you are, though. Still - I agree those cubes are a great option.

I guess I'm not one of the 'OMG they need hay' crowd...

My horses haven't had any hay (to speak of) in almost 2 yrs! My allergic pony taught us that horses don't need hay to survive.

This is my feeding regimine for all my horses:

5am - 2 sc complete feed
7:30am - 2 sc BP + 1 sc Alf Cubes + 1/2 sc of Hay stretcher (soaked)
3:30pm - 2 sc complete feed
8:00pm - 2 sc BP + 1 sc Alf Cubes + 1/2 sc Hay strecher. (soaked)

My horses age range from 9mos to 30+ yrs. All are doing just fine.
I do keep about 10 bales in the barn for freezing nights, but that's it. I have 'maybe' used 20 bales this whole year for 7 horses.

I also have NO pasture, I'm talking my pasture is rocks.. Period..

I just wanted to post this so ppl know that you CAN survive without any hay.

Here is a pix of the 30+ pony:
http://www.horseyville.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10005/normal_DSCF3558.JPG (http://www.horseyville.com/cpg/displayimage.php?pos=-3411)

And this is our pasture, you can see my 22 yo QH on the left:
http://www.horseyville.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10005/normal_DSCF3220.JPG (http://www.horseyville.com/cpg/displayimage.php?pos=-3271)

Apparently I like booty pix of my boy, but you can see he's shiny and fat and he has no health issues:
http://www.horseyville.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10005/normal_DSCF2121.JPG (http://www.horseyville.com/cpg/displayimage.php?pos=-2871)

This is my main riding mare.. she rides every weekend and camp a few times a month.. she holds her weight just fine and is even a bit pudgy:
http://www.horseyville.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10005/normal_DSCF3647%7E0.JPG (http://www.horseyville.com/cpg/displayimage.php?pos=-3505)

BTW, this is soooo much easier on our camping/pack trips, to just be able to bring grain stuff and not have to haul hay.. Oh you can't imagine the convenience :)

NC Trail Girl

Jan. 28, 2008, 03:30 PM

hundredacres

Jan. 28, 2008, 04:10 PM

NC Girl - I've had the same reaction too. I am feeding no "hay"...just beet pulp and alfalfa cubes. My horses look great - 2 are fat (I'm working on that). I really need to look into the "hay stretcher" you guys are mentioning though.

NC Trail Girl

Jan. 28, 2008, 04:58 PM

The hay stretcher is a finger sized pellet. I like to add more fiber to the diet, vs. grain, so I add the pellets. I like the cubes/BP for the actual 'bulk'.

I think I need to cut back on mine too, but I just hate to do it during Winter... I'ld rather them carry a little extra weight and we'll work it off this Spring ;)

MistyBlue

Jan. 28, 2008, 09:41 PM

Hundredacres....I know...55 kbs of hay is a lot of hay. That mare eats a bale and a flake per day. She's not an easy keeper though...she's a good sized girl and old style bred and build/very big boned. She also tends to be one of those nervey types...she can worry weight right off of herself. I could up her grain a lot and reduce her hay by a bit and keep her at the same weight (and it would cost less too) but I prefer more hay and less grain.
AV2...I don't *have* to wet and top dress my hay to get my hay-hogs to actually eat it. ;) I just happen to do that because the water makes the salt stick to the hay...and the little bit of extra salt on their hay makes them drink more overnight. After having a horse with colitis last year...I've become a real water-nazi. So the wetting/salting hay thing is to keep them drinking more than usual...otherwise they'd still clean up their hay without salting it. :yes:

J Swan

Jan. 29, 2008, 10:35 AM

Swan, you are absolutely correct we are feeding 'hay'. But some ppl get freaked out when they don't have standard hay bales/rolls to feed to the horses.

Just bringing to light that there are other ways to nutritionaly satisfy our beasties ;).

Oh and thank you very much for the nice comments on the kids! We love 'em all :)

I liked the one of your little boy on the back of the horse the best.

I was under the impression that the hay pellets did not have enough length to be of any benefit to the horse. But I wonder if I'm mistaken - our feed store has such pellets and I even tried a bag of them - but stuck with the hay cubes instead. I never got a satisfactory answer from the manufacturer so I'd be curious if any of y'all have any info on that. Just for the future.

Mistyblue - I never was into salting or soaking hay - but am doing something a wee bit similar by feeding soaked hay cubes as a supplement to their hay at night. I dislike keeping horses in but was forced to do it this year - but so far (touch wood), the horses are very well hydrated and I have had no colic problems. I no longer have any concerns about their body condition (two are not in work - only one is hunting fit but I have not hunted much lately)

ManyDogs

Jan. 29, 2008, 10:49 AM

OK, I've had our girls on 24/7 hay for about two weeks. Are they going through more, yes. Fatter? Yes, but the 6 year old mare needed a few more pounds in my estimation. They are outside unless it is really, really nasty (cold, rain, wind/windchill). We went ahead with 24/7 because we added more fencing and that's where the hay is-we can't move the huge square bales-and I do like them having access. They have to walk up the hill for water so do move about quite a bit.
I've cut back on the feed (Strategy/Horseman's Edge) and the beet pulp. Doubt I'm saving much money, however. I do beet pulp at night but it's now more watery and less sludgey. Next on my list is to investigate alfalfa cubes.

I know it's really bad when I dream about compressed hay :lol:

pintopiaffe

Jan. 29, 2008, 11:29 AM

OH for Timothy Cubes.

I switched to alfalfa cubes because I'd forgotten the tidbit about fiber length.

about 2lbs/horse in the morning instead of throwing hay... and hay consumption at the 'lunch' meal is down noticeably.

BUT, the stallion can't have alfalfa AT ALL. :sigh: And it's nothing more than 'inconvenient' but, inconvenient it is to have to bring him in and feed everyone. I'm not so much a morning person.

I'd about sell my soul for Timothy or other alfalfa free hay cubes at the moment. No one up here has even HEARD of them. :sigh:

sublimequine

Jan. 29, 2008, 11:33 AM

pintopiaffe

Jan. 29, 2008, 12:26 PM

blondmane

Jan. 29, 2008, 12:53 PM

So for those of you feeding the hay stretcher or hay cubes/pellets, do you see a significant savings as opposed to feeding just hay? 1st cutting grass mix is $6/bale in my area, and i go through about 7 bales per day for 12 horses. That's 210 bales per month, or $1260 per month - WOW~!

NC Trail Girl

Jan. 29, 2008, 12:57 PM

I'ld say in grain, it's about 4 lbs per feeding (complete pellet)
They BP is not very heavy.. maybe 2lbs
The Alf Cubes.. about 2 lbs
the Hay stretcher.. about 2lbs

That gets feed out twice a day.

NC Trail Girl

Jan. 29, 2008, 01:10 PM

I think it's about 60/week to feed each horse, that is without 'hay'.
2 bags of complete pellets, 1 bag Alf, 1 bag BP, 1 bag Stretcher.

So 240/month per horse... we've got 7 horses at the house right now.. so 1680/month on feed.... Yikes!!! It seems I literaly work to feed my horses:lol:

Back in the day when hay was plentiful, we feed 3 rolls a week (25 each)... ahhh the good old days of 300/month on feed. (we didn't grain when they had rolls)

But I honestly don't think that even when the hay situation gets back to normal, I won't go back to primary feeding hay. I love the convenience of not having to deal with hay, especially as much as we camp!

Bogie

Jan. 29, 2008, 02:34 PM

I was under the impression that the hay pellets did not have enough length to be of any benefit to the horse. But I wonder if I'm mistaken - our feed store has such pellets
Yes, it is true. Hay pellets are not a direct substitution for hay because of the fiber length while hay cubes are, well, just that -- hay. I spoke to a nutritionist who said that you can use hay stretcher to replace up to 50% of your horse's forage needs. Personally, I use it as a grain "replacement" so that they feel like they are getting a meal and then for maybe about 10% of their overall forage. The horses sure do love those hay pellets. There's never a single one left.

NC Trail Girl

Jan. 29, 2008, 04:58 PM

Bogie, do you soak your pellets?

I add mine to the BP and Alf. Cubes to be wet down..

They are such an odd size.. not grain, but not cubes.. that finger size just throws me:cool:

pintopiaffe

Jan. 29, 2008, 05:36 PM

Not Bogie ;) But... when I use Hay Stretcher, I do soak. They are the same size as the beep, and I lost a horse to complications from choke from ONE unsoaked beep pellet. :(

Amwrider

Jan. 30, 2008, 01:21 AM

NCTrail & AMWrider...

What are you talking in LBs? (i.e. per horse/per feeding? )

I'm also interested in the comment that it's cheaper to feed cubes... how do you figure? How expensive are your cubes?

I am a bad mommy and don't weigh, I just go by the scoop. With the Alfalfa cubes, the 50 pound bag is good for two feedings (19 horses). It is just over $14 per bag, I don't have a receipt handy.

The beet pulp, a 40 pound bag will get me through almost 3 feedings. One horse is IR and doesn't get it so that is for 18 horses.

I am bad at math when I am awake, so as it is after 1 am my time, I will let you do the math :D :sleepy:

hundredacres

Jan. 30, 2008, 07:18 AM

Amwrider, I feed 50 pounds of alfalfa per day (2 feedings) - to 4 horses and 2 ponies. I feed 1-2% of their body weight in cubes and 30% of that in addition in beet pulp.

Bogie

Jan. 30, 2008, 10:10 AM

Bogie, do you soak your pellets?

I add mine to the BP and Alf. Cubes to be wet down..

They are such an odd size.. not grain, but not cubes.. that finger size just throws me:cool:

I feed the Blue Seal Hay stretcher and the pellets are not particularly large. I don't soak it. My horses are not prone to choke, so have never had a problem.

NC Trail Girl

Jan. 30, 2008, 10:16 AM

I feed the BS stretcher also. I was considering tossing the stretcher pellet at the end of the feeding for them to have something to munch on, but I def. worry about them choking as they are a bit larger... dunno, maybe that'll encourage them to chew?

The beet pulp that I feed is shreds so they get a bit more 'bulk' in the feeding, not just content.

NC Trail Girl

Jan. 30, 2008, 10:22 AM

Pinto, you crack me up.. every time I see you 'Beep'.. I start making little beeping noises..eheheheheheheh

Just had to post that :)

ThirdCharm

Jan. 30, 2008, 10:26 AM

I am not feeding any hay at the moment--I have an emergency stash of about 50 bales, but everyone is on 1-2% bdy wgt in alfalfa cubes, and their usual amount of grain. They look great and we feed the cubes 4x/day (7 am, noon, five pm, and around 9-10 pm) to try to cut down on bored time.

Jennifer

rmh

Jan. 30, 2008, 11:47 AM

I have alfalfa cubes by Purina. They are very large. Does anyone know of a company which makes smaller cubes?

Thanks

Glory1

Jan. 30, 2008, 09:51 PM

with feeding the beet pulp + alfalfa cubes has been that our two OTTB's don't have to spend as much time eating to be "full"...so they now have way too much "free time". And we all know that bored young beasties are a bad bad thing! My mare has started chewing on my board fence. At this rate we MIGHT make it through til June with the hay we've got but I'm going to need to start replacing some boards! I don't think lack of fiber is our issue w/all the beet pulp they're getting. We're feeding:

early AM:
2# beet pulp (weighed dry but we soak it overnight)
2.5# alfalfa cubes (same)
2-3 flakes good quality Timothy hay
.75# oats
.25# whole corn
a vitamin/mineral supplement for both

PM:
Same as above + joint supplements/etc. for the arthritic gelding

I think we could at least reduce this behaviour by feeding more often, but Mr. Glory and I both work full-time, so that's pretty much off the table. They have a Jolly Ball (which neither of them play with) + a salt block--both not helping. We have just under 2 acres of pasture, and right now unless things are frozen I'm keeping them on the dry lot (about 1/4 acre) so they don't tear up the back. (I'm hoping to keep it nice enough back there that the grass will grow (grow baby grow!) + that will help me stretch my hay even more.) Anyone have ideas?

BTW, I have to say, the beet pulp/alfalfa cube combo IS a bit of a pain to feed, but we were feeding between 7-10# of grain each and still having trouble keeping weight on our hard keeper. After two months on what we're feeding now they're actually gaining weight in the winter--who knew!? And they're not nutso on carbs either.

Amwrider

Jan. 31, 2008, 12:46 AM

Amwrider, I feed 50 pounds of alfalfa per day (2 feedings) - to 4 horses and 2 ponies. I feed 1-2% of their body weight in cubes and 30% of that in addition in beet pulp.

They only get their alfalfa cubes as a "lunch" and they get more hay later.

The remainder of their hay is Tifton 44 given at nighttime and they get quite a bit of that. All but one of the horses are in good weight, the one that isn't is an older teen horse from Saddlebred Rescue and just got his teeth done a couple of weeks ago, he is gaining quite nicely now.

Amwrider

Jan. 31, 2008, 12:50 AM

A lot of people are saying they are using rice bran and rice oil and BOSS. One thing to consider is that these are high in phosphorous and you need to make sure the rest of the diet is higher in calcium. You never want your phosphorous to exceed your calcium as then the horse's body will leach the calcium from the bones. Calcium is needed for the body to process phosphorous in a 1:1 digestive ratio so always make sure Calcium is higher in the diet's ratio.

MistyBlue

Jan. 31, 2008, 06:38 AM

I have alfalfa cubes by Purina. They are very large. Does anyone know of a company which makes smaller cubes?

I'm not sure how big the Purian cubes are...but ask if your feed store carries Ontario Dehy cubes. They come alfalfa, alfalfa mix and timothy only. They average about 1.5 inches square...but there's always a couple that come out of the bag larger...like they forgot to cut a few.

rmh

Jan. 31, 2008, 08:16 AM

Thanks, mine are several inches long and have to be broken up. Currently I am not using them for feed. I give them when trail riding for some nutrients. I have been cosidering them for feeding but I only soak the beet pulp a few minutres and don't want to add too much more complexity to the mix. They have hay but I am thinking about trying to make the good hay last longer. They are spoiled of the orchard grass they get and don't really like the fescue they get to munch on during the day.

Kimber55

Feb. 2, 2008, 06:32 PM

What is the purpose/ reasoning for soaking hay?
I was a barn some time ago that did that, I am now on my own and was curious the reasoning behind it.
Thanks

MistyBlue

Feb. 2, 2008, 06:42 PM

rmh...I'm guessing my cubes are made the same way, but then broken up before selling. In each bag I can usually find one or two long hard-as-rocks cubes. I could probably use them as a weapon, LOL!
If you use hot water to soak, it reduces the soaking time by a whole lot. Of course that only helps if you have easy access to hot water.
If you feel like expending some anger...every few days throw a handful of those longer cubes in a burlap sack and beat the snot out of it with a hammer. That should break them up enough so that they'll soak in no time like the beet pulp.

Kimber...there's a few reasons to soak hay. It reduces hay dust by a lot. And even hay that's not dusty seeming at all has quite a bit of dust particles in it. For horses with airway problems...soaking hay removes a lot of the dust we can't see and helps them a lot.
Soaking can also reduce the amount of natural sugar found in hay, which is good for horses with insulin issues.
For horses with sore mouths or older horses with less teeth...soaking hay a good long while softens it up enough for them to eat more easily.

hundredacres

Feb. 3, 2008, 08:11 AM

BTW, I have to say, the beet pulp/alfalfa cube combo IS a bit of a pain to feed, but we were feeding between 7-10# of grain each and still having trouble keeping weight on our hard keeper. After two months on what we're feeding now they're actually gaining weight in the winter--who knew!? And they're not nutso on carbs either.

I've got a hard keeper (just off the track and coming off "stuff" from late November) and he is on 18 pounds cubes and 4.5 pounds beet pulp and he was just maintaining weight. I added 1.25 pounds of stabilazed rice bran to that and he's gaining.

Flash44

Feb. 3, 2008, 08:25 AM

I am haying my fields, about 10 pounds per horse per day. At night in the stalls, the TB gets another 4-6 lbs of hay. They all get some soaked beet pulp and Triple Crown Low Starch. the Low Starch can be fed as a complete feed (ie. no hay) but I should have enoughy hay to last through the spring, and hay gives the horses more to do.

snkstacres

Feb. 3, 2008, 08:42 AM

Lordy, we must be talking about just normal horses here. I have rounds outside but only younger horses with full set of teeth can eat it. Others just quid it. round bales this year are a min of $65 and that makes it quite a lot of money. The fatties are the ones who stand at it all day long and get fatter. The old folks can only eat alfalaf hay. I have to soak cubes in hot water or they cant eat them. I tried hay stretcher and not a single horse liked it. I am spending way too much on complete grain and think I ought to cut all the fatties way back and then start feeding a controlled amount of square bales. But again, the strong fatties, they get fatter, the thin get thinner.

I just dont see a way that I can possibly feed these guys any cheaper than I am and still maintain them with there individual needs.

But, its always interesting to read your guys ideas from different parts of the country. I can only dream of having only one or two horses who simply require normal food LOL

Chief2

Feb. 3, 2008, 08:45 AM

Many thanks to all of you for this thread! I have been in the business a longtime and learned more about hay cubes here than all the other threads going. We do bp and haystretcher in addition to hay, but if we have trouble getting hay to tide us over to June, I know which route to use now. The information on the stem length just answered the cube versus pellet question for me. Timothy cubes it is, and soaked. Much relieved!

We used to get alfalfa cubes from Chesapeake Dehy. that were soft and easy to peel. Got them from a Nutrena supplier. The Montana Pride cubes were so hard they had a shiny polished finish on them, and I spent the winter whacking them with a hammer.

MistyBlue: Where are you getting the Ontario Dehy. Timothy cubes?

hundredacres

Feb. 3, 2008, 11:02 AM

I've been doing some reading on the hay stretchers and I'm a little confused....

Someone please clarify for me: to me it seems like it is interchangeable with BP, except it appears to be a bit lower in fiber, and a tad bit higher energy product.

Right now I feed 1-2% bw in alfalfa cubes....and and additional 30% of their bw in beet pulp. I'm not sure what value I would get using the stretcher....except for some variety maybe? Since I feed no hay (except on the 0* days) I wouldn't want to replace the alfalfa cubes with stretcher because the stretcher is in pellet form and i want as much of their diet in cube as I can manage (for stem). The price of the stretcher is about the same as cubes so it wouldn't offer me any value....and it would be "one more thing" for me to weigh. I try to keep things simple since I do all the feeding (for 6) on my own, and work too.

I am thinking it is just like it says - more specifically for lower hay supplies, but not necassarily for people with no hay using cubes. At least this is what my logic is telling me. In fact, I kind of look at the BP and cubes as "hay stretchers" themselves.

Any thoughts? Am I correct?

ETA: Hmmm, thinking on it more....it WOULD be a fine replacement for the beet pulp though, right? It is a tad bit cheaper and doesn't require soaking as it is in pellett form ( the Kent brand doesn't anyway). I pay $12 for 40# of BP and the stertcher is about $9 for 50#. The Kent brand is very similar in nutritional content as the BP I am using now.

hundredacres

Feb. 3, 2008, 11:09 AM

edited (dup)

Chief2

Feb. 4, 2008, 09:07 AM

Haystretcher is dried alfalfa with grain hulls, formed into a 3/4 inch cylindrical soft pellet. It is a processed product. There are several manufacturers, with Blue Seal being the tastiest because it also has the highest sugar content of them all. Not enough to send a normal horse over the top, but it is higher than the Nutrena version. Horses inhale the BS version. It can replace bp if there is a shortage or if one would like diversity. It is considered a forage because it is processed in the hind gut as hay is. It can be fed wet or dry. I use the Blue Seal version, and feed it dry.

For some reason, although I have weighed all of my hay and grain, I never did it with this. I think I was too much into emergency mode to stop and get it done. I started with it to keep weight on an elderly hard keeper who had had close to 70 percent of his small intestine removed and re-sectioned, couldn't chew hay very well, and needed the extra forage to keep the weight on. What I did (and still do) was start with 1 quart of it, dry, and fed it separately (lunch) to make sure he liked it and all would go well. Once that was safely into the diet, I added another quart, separately, at night. From there, I mixed and matched as I needed it.

Cold weather: Senior grain plus 1-2 quarts hs am/pm feedings, 2 quarts hs with supplements and soaked BP for lunch, 1-2quarts again for an evening snack, mixed with soaked BP. Hay available at all feedings.

Warm weather (grass graze): 1 quart with grain at feedings, 1 quart at lunch and evening snacks.
The horse, who by all rights should have been skinny because of the change in his digestive system, was fat and happy, much to the surprise of the vets. If I needed to lower his weight, I simply cut back on the HS a bit, and he came right down. I have used it on all of the horses for snacks and winter weight maintenance ever since.I also know of a friend's 36 year old pony, with 4 teeth left in his head, who ate 2 quarts of it am/pm along with his grain, and lived comfortably into his forties.

If you are looking to control the stem length, or remain completely natural by using grass/hay-only forages, you would be best off sticking to cubes. If you are willing to add grain hulls into the diet and not worry about stem length, it is a good product to add into the diet to keep weight on and provide variety.

pintopiaffe

Feb. 4, 2008, 12:07 PM

For me the hay stretcher is higher protein and lower fiber than the beep. I use both. BUT, it is alfalfa based. Beet pulp is a miracle answer for the stallion who can't have alfalfa. (have you ever tried to feed a performance horse who can't have even a whiff? That stuff's in EVERYTHING!)

So the beep is, to me, really important for those who can't have alfalfa for either protein reasons or other issues.

The hay stretcher, OTOH helps up the protein a bit too for broodies/babies. I find it sort of interchangeable with alfalfa *pellets.* It's definitely good stuff in times of need.

Auventera Two

Feb. 4, 2008, 01:01 PM