I Have Created a Flying Change Monster...

[Hony]

....and now my counter canter is gone. I started working on flying changes two months ago and now suddenly my horse has become a bit of an expert. I have tried to be very clear with my signals so that she waits for them until she changes.
Today I tried working on counter canter and my horse consistently did great lead changes. She was sooooo proud of herself! I tried a couple of things to show her that wasn't what I was asking for and made sure my signals remained clear but she insisted on doing changes. So how do I go about retraining the counter canter? Any suggestions would be very helpful.

[J-Lu]

Here's a suggestion: Don't worry!! :D

She learned the change and finds that it's easier to change than to hold the balance on the counter canter. She's right!

To reintroduce counter canter, try going back to shallow serpentines at the canter and *easy* stuff. Soon she'll realize that sometimes you counter canter, but sometimes you do changes. "Oooohhh", she'll say.

Her eagerness to do changes when you first teach them is fine - and a normal part of the progression for some horses. She will learn to wait for your aids once she figures out that there are two options on the table when changing rein at the canter. She'll probably learn her tempis pretty easily once she understands to wait for you.

J.

[Hony]

J-Lu: You made me laugh out loud.
I will be very please when she says "Ooohhhhh"!
I will forget about it for a few days and then try the shallow loops again.

[Cowgirl]

I am in the third trimester of teaching changes on my mare and I am now starting to see relief! We have been at it since October. I am constantly told that all of this is normal. After she got the changes clean, etc., what we did to improve control over them (and yes she will change when you are giving the half halt for rebalancing before the change) is do changes on the rail, first with simple changes and canter only a few steps and halt and then the flying changes (a few strides and halt). Also you have to vary patterns to help decrease the anticipating. I started doing them out of half passes. Then of course, I got the changes in the middle of my half passes as she was being so clever in anticipating them and lost my half pass for a while (have it back now, thank you very much). I really learned to keep my seat and sit very still to prevent this.

When they take over like that and do the changes on their own, they tend to throw you all over the place and you can't keep the horse straight. Halt as soon as you can, but don't punish.

I also lost my counter canter. But I do have to say that when I had someone way more experienced with a stronger seat (a male clinician, ex-Olympian) ride her, he had no problem keeping the counter canter. This is where it puts your feet to the fire a bit on your seat and position. You have to be rock solid in your core to keep the counter canter. So if you are not an ex-Olympian or a big strong man (LOL), just do a few steps of counter canter for right now and halt and praise.

I also had to go back and reinforce my half halts and get more refined halt halts with her. TONS of forward and back work in both trot and canter; transitions between gaits with a collecting half halt, etc. When they change on their own, they are ignoring the half halts.

I also do waiting exercises with her. Which is I might do some transitions and the minute I feel she is anticipating I make her go for a while before the next one and wait for my aids. If she blows through a half halt, we do a full halt.

But they do that because they are excited with the new thing and are really trying to please and not be disobedient, so don't punish. Just go back and reinforce the other things. Many times when you teach something new, you have to go back and reinforce all of the basics you already put in place and sometimes also bring them up to a new standard.

My trainer, who is known as the flying change queen in her region of her native country, says not to worry, when the changes are confirmed, the counter canter comes back into place. Confirmed, for changes, means they do them clean, on your aids, without anticipation and they take the half halt before the change. Each horse is different: some learn changes really quickly and some take a long time. It doesn't necessarily indicate the horse's talent for them if they take longer to learn them. Some horses with the best changes took a long time to train.

My trainer also says that changes are simply a trick and nearly all horses can learn to do it. But if the horse gets jazzed up about it, it's important to remain calm and relaxed. If you get all jazzed up, it makes things worse.

[kip]

This is going to sound very basic but it worked really well for me when I ran into the same problem with two of my horses. When my horse would change leads I would VERY quietly and VERY patiently ask them to balance themselves and then pick the counter canter back up again. I never punished them for doing a change. Instaed, I would just think ok...and now counter canter please. I had to do this MANY times during the ride but soon my horses really understood and waited for my signal. One more thing, make sure that your inside knee maintains a slight pressure to help your horse keep the counter canter.

[Dressage Art]

Congratulations with your flying changes!
My mare was doing flying changes all the time and I did loose the counter canter. She was very proud and loved throwing them around. I got advised to stop doing flying changes and work on getting a counter canter, so we didn't do any flying changes and rode counter canter till I was blue in the face. Big mistake!

Now, I'm having a hard time getting the flying changes back - she can counter canter on 10m circle and still not change.

Look at the big picture and cherish your flying changes.

[San Miranda]

When you teach FC you ALWAYS go pass the place where you did the FC in counter canter ALWAYS.

Give a big pat when you get your change but always finish by going pass in counter canter, then big pat and send to stable.

If he keeps changing do a very little circe where you did the FC in canter, stop give a big pat and then go pass in counter canter and big pat and then send to the stable.

This way you teach the horse only to do FC when you ask.

[Utah]

My horse also lost the counter canter, and, well...he figured if one FC was good, 10 would be better! Yahoo! Lets do them all the time! Fun fun fun!

Most trainers/instructors/clinicians told me to go back and reconfirm the counter canter. Fine. But then...we had counter canter again and never progressed. This did NOT work.
Finally...and I will give credit... this was a lesson with Tom Poulin...he told me to do them everywhere. All the time. A hundred a ride. Whatever. Just do them a lot, every ride.
And- within a VERY short period of time, we had confirmed changes AND confirmed counter canter, AND withing a very short period of time, moved on to 4's, 3's, 2's, 1's.

Doing multitudes confirmed the aids for him. Also made them not such a big deal. Honestly, not backing up again to CC was about the biggest thing for our progress EVER.

[Hony]

Thanks for the advice everyone.
I have a very small arena to work in during the winter which I think helps to my horse to balance herself. Probably one of the reasons we got the changes so easily in there is because the corners are sharp and really cause her to balance and change. I'm wondering if it would be beneficial to ride a shallow loop on one side to create counter canter, then do a change on the diagonal to show her the difference. Thoughts?
It is difficult to do a tear drop shape in the arena that is large enough to prevent her from wanting to change so I would like to stay away from it.
Can anyone think of any other figures that would work in a small arena?

[magnum]

I eliminate the potential for ever having this problem by teaching the FLYING changes the same day I teach the C.C.

This way, the horse never learns to go one way for too long before introducing something NEW. They learn to WAIT for the request, plain and simple.

Since the problem already exists, I might suggest this: Get your aids (seat, hands, weight) light, get him coming from BEHIND .... and try to do one lead. HALT. Do a halt to canter Trans by now starting on the other lead. HALT. Start off from halt on the other lead. HALT. Do this only maybe one diagonal.

By the end of that diagonal, I always have a horse who does precisely what is requested. When you mix it up, they forget to be a machine and start to WAIT and LISTEN.

Hope this helps - it's never failed me.

Magnum

[Cowgirl]

Doing multitudes confirmed the aids for him. Also made them not such a big deal. Honestly, not backing up again to CC was about the biggest thing for our progress EVER.

I was told this too. Do them every day. All the time, so the horse quiets down and figures it out.

You might get the FC in your counter canter loop now that you are in FC mode. I did. Do not worry too much about the counter canter right now. Get the FCs confirmed so that the horse is clear about the aids and then go back to the cc.

[Spectrum]

ARGH.

I'm now having the opposite problem. My mare *was* the flying change monster (albeit totally untrained to do changes) and now will not do them to save her life.

She was extremely sensitive to my balance at the canter originally and would swap at the slightest change of my leg (not cleanly, though, unless I set her up for it on purpose).

So I worked on counter-canter for a really long time. She turned it into a game of trying to sneak in changes, and I learned how to "block" the changes with my seat (she'd pop up for the change, I'd sit heavy with my aids for the counter-canter lead and she'd come back down on the same lead).

Huuuuge mistake. A couple days a go I tried to test out the change and got..... NOTHING. Nada. Zilch. I was bouncing around up there like I was doing gymnastics trying to get her off-balance enough to make her try to sneak in the change again. I thought, "Crud, I better work on this until I get *something*."

So I ended up doing a 1/2 10m circle from the wall coming sharply back into the corner and swinging my entire weight waaaayyy to the other side in an attempt to get her so off-balance she had to try to swap. It took two tries, but I got it and rewarded her hugely. The next time I did a much less exaggerated approach and got the un-clean swap right when I asked for it. I praised and quit on that, thrilled she wasn't ignoring me completely.

Obviously I'm not an expert rider, but I'm pretty horrified I've taught my super-smart mare how *not* to do flying changes. I'd rather have her swapping all over again- I'd be ready for 3rd level right now if I had my changes back!

We're going to experiment some more tonight and see what we get. We are going to skip the counter-canter for a while and try to get the change back again.

Any additional suggestions on exercises would be appreciated!

Spectrum.

[CatOnLap]

Very interesting discussion, and what a happy problem, isn't it?

Our horses always find ways to remind us to ride every stride, don't they?

[Touchstone Farm]

What a good problem! And who cares? Do you see counter canter in the GP test?! Seriously, don't fret over it. Be very happy that she does them. The opposite problem is worse. Counter canter will reappear.

[~Freedom~]

I always work on the flying changes along with the counter canter at the same time. Never had a monster on either end of the spectrum.

Too many get so hot about the changes and tempis that they forget about the basic foundation work that should be reviewed at all times. I would also point out that a coach that is know as a "flying change king or queen" tells me that their all round work may be lacking or they teach their pupils that one thing to the point that people come to them exclusively for that one thing only.

The flying change is not the be all or end all in training and even the top trainers will tell you it is not that difficult to teach.

[slc2]

this is a different approach: i try to not get the change :) . meaning that in getting either cc or change, the quality of the canter and balance and straightness comes first(so no leaning or trying really hard to get the change), ie the straightness and half halts are there and the 'leads are fixed', meaning one lead is not longer and lopier and the other more upright and stiff. that is the source alot when one change is easy and the other is a problem or when there are problems between changes and counter canter.

if a horse changes because he is off balance, there's the problem. from the start i try to not do that and instead have the horse respond to the flying change aid, when one does that then the change and the counter canter are much more reliable all thru the process. there is just some anticipation to do a change that is easy to manage and the counter canter stays. all the rider really has to do is just make sure his aids are clear to keep the counter canter.

i find it's a problem if even the very first few changes are gotten by leaning or turning abruptly, then the horse does a change when he's off balance or won't counter canter when wanted.

i feel like trying to get even the first changes that way causes a problem. if the walk canter transitions are good and the half halt works in the canter, and the leads are 'fixed' (again not one long and soft and the other more upright) quite often the initial flying changes are very easy to get and then everything works better after.

[~Freedom~]

this is a different approach: i try to not get the change :) . meaning that in getting either cc or change, the quality of the canter and balance and straightness comes first(so no leaning or trying really hard to get the change), ie the straightness and half halts are there and the 'leads are fixed', meaning one lead is not longer and lopier and the other more upright and stiff. that is the source alot when one change is easy and the other is a problem or when there are problems between changes and counter canter.

Called having the horse, true, in front of the leg, balanced and straight and a prerequisite for the improvement of any further training in the horse in any movement.

if a horse changes because he is off balance, there's the problem. from the start i try to not do that and instead have the horse respond to the flying change aid, when one does that then the change and the counter canter are much more reliable all thru the process. there is just some anticipation to do a change that is easy to manage and the counter canter stays. all the rider really has to do is just make sure his aids are clear to keep the counter canter.

Have to agree here. Too many are in a rush to get those magical changes and if they over collect they will create stiffness. If they just throw the horse around to get "something" they will have difficulties later on.

i find it's a problem if even the very first few changes are gotten by leaning or turning abruptly, then the horse does a change when he's off balance or won't counter canter when wanted.

The danger here is the change will occur in the front but not the hind end. Once the horse learns to change late or not change at all it is very difficult to fix.

i feel like trying to get even the first changes that way causes a problem. if the walk canter transitions are good and the half halt works in the canter, and the leads are 'fixed' (again not one long and soft and the other more upright) quite often the initial flying changes are very easy to get and then everything works better after.

Have to agree again. Making transitions from one lead to the other through the walk is inherently less likely to create many of the known problems.

[Spectrum]

After my ride the other night where I wasn't able to get the changes at all without putting her off-balance, I did some searching on the web and read articles from several sources on how to start teaching the changes. I figured it was "time."

Here are a few things I found that seem to agree with what I've read on this thread:

1. Don't ever get the changes by throwing weight around, putting the horse off-balance, etc. Note to self, won't do that anymore. I only did it the one time because it was an extreme case of "Uh-huh, not gonna do it, we don't do that anymore, remember?" on my mare's part.

2. You must have experience riding the changes before you attempt teaching them. I should be good there- I've successfully ridden tempis up through two-tempies on a couple schoolmasters, so I know the basic aids, etc. Obviously I'm not an expert on them, but I don't know how you would become one without eventually learning how to problem solve them- which a schoolmaster doesn't do so much, too "push-button."

So armed with a barrage of ideas, I went out to the barn last night with one purpose in mind: try out a technique I found recommended by several people to start teaching her "real" changes.

I started out last night by warming up and trying to get my mare really in front of my leg, especially in relation to the transitions into/out of canter. I did transitions within the gait, some baby canter half-passes (still very green at those), simple changes, and no counter canter whatsoever.

When she was still fresh but totally relaxed and supple each way at the canter, I did a medium across the diagonal and just before the wall I asked for the change. Hurrah, we got something! It was late behind by a stride, but for this mare that's a miracle in and of itself- normally if she doesn't change clean, she is extremely difficult to get to switch behind to catch up.

I tried a couple more times, and each time she was late behind, but did the change.

I am quite sure this is my fault at this point, and my next step is going to be having eyes on the ground to help me work with the timing of the aids to make sure I'm asking at the correct time (it's been a while since I had a good instructor work with me on changes, so I'm sure my timing is not so hot right now).

Fortunately, my mare has pretty nice jump in her mediums, so I think getting my timing right will be easier to figure out than with a flatter moving horse.

So, instructors... what are your favorite exercises to teach riders (or yourself) the correct timing of the aids for the change?

I've read an article by Kyra K where she talks about having the rider count the three beats in the canter and begin asking for the change in the third beat so that the aid actually occurs just before the moment of suspension when the horse is most able to change.

After reading this, it occurred to me that nobody had gotten into the mechanics of the timing with me when I was learning on the schoolmasters, so it could very well be that the only reason I wasn't getting late changes the entire time was because the horses knew better. Not sure though, because I don't think I could have ridden 3's and 4's correctly if I wasn't timing it right... I just know I did it very much by feel and there was very little of counting involved other than the actual strides between changes.

Spectrum.

[slc2]

Not an instructor, but timing of the aids means nothing initially as the horse needs 2-3 strides to respond to the aids and can't possibly physically respond to the aid on the spot. If you can give the aids when the saddle is dropping down (the horse's back goes down in the 2nd beat of the canter) it can eventually help, but timing is not a big deal when the horse needs 2-3 strides to gather himself and make the change...I think it puts way too much pressure on a horse to expect him to respond quickly when he is just getting figured out what's wanted.

i use a counter canter circle, i change my aids, and i may have my aids on for a number of strides while the horse is going around, not hitting him with the whip but just rubbing it a little bit on his haunches....he says....'what the...what's this about...she must be....' then SUDDENLY, the light comes on and they go....'ohhhhh....she wants me to....ok, ok...i can do this....' and you have to allow them to change like that for a while (several months) til the muscles develop.

for me the key is that unlike most other riding disciplines, i don't 'try to get a flying lead change', i am trying to 'teach the horse the flying change aids', meaning that i go at it totally differently, not using a ground pole, not using a turn, not leaning, not using any different aids or anything different from a correct walk canter transition with me sitting right in the middle of the saddle, sitting up straight.

not from getting a huge bend to his neck (i don't bend the neck hardly at all to signal a change, as kyrkland says you shift your hips, you change the bend...to FOLLOW the change, not to make it happen), nothing, just really a little nudge of the outside heel.

no, not some tiny positioning of my hips, that's what leads to all the 'flying change monster' problems, because the horse DOESN'T know what the aid for the flying lead change is and he is always trying to GUESS what the aid is - is it this? is it that? is it when you sneeze? is it when you look up...and he's ALWAYS wrong and he gets very frustrated and i don't want that.

i know if i get those first changes from bending, moving hips, leaning, using pole, using wall, i will have HUGE problems later i have to fix and i will be in a world of hurt and be kicking myself for years...it may, in fact, be why the horse never does the tempe changes properly. how you get those first few changes REALLY matters.

i try the counter canter direction first that your horse holds LEAST reliably (though if it's REALLY unreliable it's not time to do changes) and is most likely to want to get the other lead on...even in a perfectly trained horse there is always a very tiny tendency to have one 'happier' counter canter lead than the other.

then just keep cantering around like it was no big deal and give him a little pat, but don't stop. if he is late behind and has to take a stride or two to straighten that out, SO WHAT, he responded to the aid, that's ALL that matters for the first phase...good pony, good boy.

after cantering on a little tiny bit i stop, dismount and put them in the barn with food and you can BET a light goes on bigtime. it usually takes a couple weeks and i get 3 in each direction, at teh end of the lesson, making sure the horse has a lot of energy and is not tired when i try to do them...if it's a very quiet horse that starts to get heavy on teh forehand by the end of the lesson try doing the changes at teh start.

the real key is the preparation - are the canter leads 'fixed' (same, not one long and soft and one stiff and upright), is the half halt there in the canter, is the horse straight, is the canter really energetic and round and leaping on both leads. and the horse should be able to canter ALOT before working on changes. alot, alot alot. canter to pittsburg and back and then canter some more.

a really good preparation is the 'Quick Change', esp for the horse with the slow hind leg, you get on a 20-m circle and canter and counter canter, over and over, with only a HALF a step at the walk. turn and go the other way, walk and canter, walk and counter canter, 1/2 or 1/3 a step at walk, keep working on it til you can do beautiful walk canter transitions on 1/2 a 20 m circle at canter, 1/2 at counter canter, like it's a walk in the park.

[slc2]

The flying changes aren't just a foundation for tempe changes...they help develop the back and hind legs for correct piaffe, passage and even more so, pirouettes. They make the hind legs quicker and more flexible, and build up muscle.

What you do with flying changes, even the first ones, is absolutely critical to how the schooling of those later things goes.

A dressage horse usually learns changes about second level; at that point his 'collected canter' is not very collected at all; it very well may not be collected enough to allow him to do a flying lead change. Collected enough is the key.

'Overcollecting' in effort to get the changes usually isn't the problem, actually, usually the problem is 'not collecting at all', but a slow canter without energy, where there is too much hand or at least not enough leg(which is worse :))...in that sort of canter, the horse cannot jump his legs through - it's physically impossible.

Actual real collection, to the amount the 2nd level horse can manage correctly, and to the amount that makes the canter gathered, active and jumping, and makes the hind legs bend more and move faster****DOES**** help, in fact it makes the change POSSIBLE AT ALL.

The main problem with most methods of getting a change is they cause more problems than they fix. As far as what line to do them on, after many years I've started to think the 20 m counter canter circle is the ONLY way the amateur rider and horse have plenty of time to figure things out together...AND have the circle to help control and balance the horse....this keeps horse and rider calmer and less under pressure. The rider isn't staring at a corner looming up and thinking, 'oh shit' and feeling with every missed lead change and every corner like more of a failure.

It also is a test...if you can't counter canter on both leads really well on a 20 m circle, you know you aren't ready to do changes!

'Going too forward' is usually NOT a problem (watch the top fei young horse test riders, or watch isabel werth teaching a youngster flying changes on her video, it will pop your eyes out of your head)...going FAST in a long, sprawled out unbalanced posture IS, going fast off balance where the horse can't respond to the aids IS a problem.

A horse has to have a really good canter to CHANGE FROM (that's really important), and a really good canter to change TO(THAT'S really important, LOL). I used to canter around and around frowning and trying to get that PERFECT canter, really jumping and together, and THEN change...LOL...a funny sight i suppose if the instructor is yelling, 'alright already, kick the damned horse and do the change!' but man does it work to change out of a really good canter!!!

It's a big mental barrier alot I think and no one can school a horse when they're under pressure. We have to keep in mind what used to be screamed at me alot...relax, go forward, collect and hold up your St. Francis medal! (St Francis is the patron saint of flying lead changes, by the way).

[Spectrum]

SLC-

Thanks a ton! My mare after two rides clearly has "remembered" the aids for the flying change again and I think we're in a really good place from that standpoint. My main worry is that it is very hard to get the changes clean, and I think that the counter-canter on a 20m circle with simple changes first and then when she's "thinking" switch might be better for where we are now at than the diagonal. I'm definitely feeling rushed and I think maybe she's feeling rushed at this point as well.

Her canter work 90% of the time is quite excellent, and I would say that on average our canter collection is probably more like a 3rd level horse. On our best days we play around with the beginnings of pirouette canter, and our collection is 95% from the seat with hands mostly for refinement.

My next step is going to be the 20m counter-canter circle, as this will re-affirm our counter canter while simultaneously giving us the chance to play with the changes without putting a time limit on when we have to do it.

I totally agree that the timing issue is tricky- it takes her a few strides to put her own brain together for the change even when she knows its coming, and she feels like she's going "shoot, I know i can get the front changed, and I know we need to do it *now* so we'll just have to figure the hind end out later!!"

The funny thing is that when I'm working with her on my own, I feel we are both much more relaxed than when someone is helping us, as there is a pressure to "do it right" whereas when we're on our own I tend to think of it more as a process of learning and approach it as such. And the changes feel much more organized and relaxed even if they aren't clean.

At what point do you start to worry about getting them clean? And is this something that will come on its own, or am I at risk of totally screwing this horse up?

Frankly, I suspect someone has already tried to work changes with her when she was much younger, so I have no idea how much baggage I'm dealing with at this point, but I'm treating her like she's never done them before.

Spectrum.

[~Freedom~]

relax, go forward, collect and hold up your St. Francis medal! (St Francis is the patron saint of flying lead changes, by the way).

Bull!!

St Francis is known as the patron saint of animals, birds, the environment.

SLC We REALLY REALLY don't need two books from you about flying changes. Did COTH enable a word limit that you were forced to post two diatribes.

[slc2]

--At what point do you start to worry about getting them clean?

Aby time I'm awake, LOL!!!!

Usually after about 2 weeks if all the preparation has been really good (horse is 10000% straight, forward, collected, straight, straight straight, responds to your leg, etc)...but that's 10 or 12 rides working on them each day, with more rides being reasonable your first couple horses. If they aren't clean after that point I start wondering if there's some underlying basic that's missing, that I need to get before I try the changes. Sometimes it goes longer...bigger, longer less balanced horses with slow hind legs are very hard and you are doing all sorts of things to try and make up for well..for just what they are.

--And is this something that will come on its own, or am I at risk of totally screwing this horse up?

That's really a hard question. Yeah you are at risk of screwing up the horse if he gets a habit of doing the changes wrong, and you do them wrong many many times. Someone told me once you only have so much time before that bad change becomes a habit(everyone gives a different time frame, LOL!!). But it can be time to take the horse to a really super trainer and watch him or her ride the horse and get the change, and listen to what he or she says about what was wrong. Most really experienced people get so they can get horses to do changes very easily even if someone else has problems...it's really good to know that and see it, and be told exactly what simple thing needs to change.

I've seen people take over a YEAR to get two clean changes off of a difficult horse, and they wound up...believe it or not ok...but MOST of the time...most...no, if it's not working out after a couple weeks or a month it is a message you got to go back and fix something underlying...or it can happen the first time or two an amateur tries to put changes on the horse and the rider just needs more time to relax and get it done.

--Frankly, I suspect someone has already tried to work changes with her when she was much younger, so I have no idea how much baggage I'm dealing with at this point, but I'm treating her like she's never done them before.

I think it will sound really wierd but i don't ever want to even think about what anyone did before with them, because it makes the rider think he's got a big problem to face and it's intimidating. it's much better not to think about it, and just think about 'ok, what's wrong, let's fix it'.

the key really is are you working with someone who can say 'it's not straight' or 'it's not off your left leg' or 'stop turning his head', or something very simple (it's always something simple) that you just fix and do your changes. yes there are horses that can never do two good changes...but there are plenty of other people who won't mind and will be happy to have the horse.

[Spectrum]

Bull!!

St Francis is known as the patron saint of animals, birds, the environment.

SLC We REALLY REALLY don't need two books from you about flying changes. Did COTH enable a word limit that you were forced to post two diatribes.

Well, considering that SLC is one of only two people who has taken the time to write to me at length and give me suggestions on this (the other pm-ed me), I don't know why you would feel the need to chastise.

If you have some other suggestions, or disagree with what slc is saying, I would love to have additional perspectives, but it seems kind of snarky to just jump into the thread for the purpose of snapping at someone who is trying to help someone else.

It's kind of sad to think that maybe the reason the other person pm-ed me instead of posting for everyone's benefit is because they were probably wanting to avoid getting jumped on by the people who choose to be negative instead of offering their own insights.

Spectrum.

[slc2]

why don't you get someone good on the ground to help you too or even get on your horse and tell you what they feel. it really helps.

[Dressage Art]

Spectrum,

Late changes are never good changes. Those will score a 4. It's better not to school changes if they are late at all, than school late changes. It's very difficult to fix late changes.

I've personally had a "flying change monster" as well and trainer decided to hold us on the counter canter and stop doing changes for about 2 years - big mistake - when I asked for changes they were not there at all: even on 10m circles my mare counter cantered. I went to several sources, both "live clinics", books and internet BBs and kept hearing the same thing:

1~Work on the quality of the canter. Horse needs to have a good air jump to be able to do changes.
2~you have to be the master of hunches and be able to put them wherever you want them to be.
3~your horse has to be hot of the leg with quality and responsive simple changes (good and fast). Then the flying change will be just another stride of canter.

After 3 months of trying unsuccessfully to get our flying changes back, I decided to stop trying and work on the quality of our canter. After a month of working non stop on that, I asked for a flying changes during a clinic and they were there, even better and more expressive that the old ones! I had to try to get them on various places to get a response at first: for example serpantines didn’t work for us at all. What worked is a change on totally straight lines at E and B. I did had to learn how to hang on for my dear life b/c my mare started to buck, kick, hop - you name it - she did it with flying changes!

Previously, I rode about a dozen horses with confirmed flying changes. My current mare is my first horse that I'm bringing along myself. It's a HUGE difference to ride a confirmed flying change and to teach a flying change. What I found, that on schoolmaster I can give a HH and very decisively switch my seat and legs and I'll get a flying change. On my mare, that technique will get me a wild buck, kick, hop, but no flying changes. I have to literally baby-sit my mare and spoon feed her: I have to have very clear aids before, during, and after a flying change. I also have to have a "neutral phase" where both of my legs are just hanging down equally before I change my seat and ask for the flying change. If I ask for the flying change with out this "neutral state" - my mare gets pissed at me (buck exedra), yet it works on many schoolmasters just fine. Thus we still don’t have the geometrical accuracy that needed to do flying changes on test 3-3, but we do 3-1 where I have 1/2 of the diagonal to do a flying change.

So, back to you - from your own words, you don't yet have the control over the hunches, b/c you are doing just a "baby half pass" -- that tell me that you are not ready to ask for flying changes. Late flying changes show that your horse might not have enough air time /jump to her canter to switch both legs at once.

So I'll pass to you the advice that helped me:
1~Work on the quality of the canter. Horse needs to have a good air jump to be able to do changes.
2~you have to be the master of hunches and be able to put them wherever you want them to be.
3~your horse has to be hot of the leg with good and responsive simple changes. Then the flying change will be just another stride of canter.

[Cowgirl]

I'll add to that lists:

You canter aid has to be CLEAR to the horse, in other words, make sure your outside leg is really far back and on for a while in all of your canter work. Make the change of leg aid very clear in the position of your legs. Keep the new outside leg back and far on. My horse needed this in order to stop throwing in changes all the time. As soon as I really clarified the aid to her, then I got my counter canter back.

In the beginning phases of teaching the change, the horse (unless a true natural) will struggle with it's balance a bit. I found that right before the change from her weak side to strong side (and yes, young horses are usually "sided") she would lean a little bit on the reins for balance and would pull me slightly forward and this compounded her balance problems. Make your position rock solid!

Continue to work canter strengthening exercises for collected canter, spiraling in, riding canter in travers, changing to shoulder fore when the circle is small, riding half passes, etc. All of this will improve her balance and help the changes.

And just keep doing them and try not to worry. The horse can feel your worry and it will affect them.

[~Freedom~]

Well, considering that SLC is one of only two people who has taken the time to write to me at length and give me suggestions on this (the other pm-ed me), I don't know why you would feel the need to chastise.

If you have some other suggestions, or disagree with what slc is saying, I would love to have additional perspectives, but it seems kind of snarky to just jump into the thread for the purpose of snapping at someone who is trying to help someone else.

It's kind of sad to think that maybe the reason the other person pm-ed me instead of posting for everyone's benefit is because they were probably wanting to avoid getting jumped on by the people who choose to be negative instead of offering their own insights.

Spectrum.

Ummmm I did post my thoughts and in case it got lost in SLC's now THREE diatribes, I stated that you need to work on the flying changes WITH the counter canter. My initial changes would be from either the canter half pass or counter canter to the other lead.

[Thomas_1]

Freedom, BE WARNED..... this is likely to be a diatribe! ;)

First of all, well done for getting the flying change of lead.

I'm wondering though how you taught him this in the first place. My preference is to prepare the horse for a flying change from the counter canter.

Its important to prepare the horse and ensure he's understanding he's getting unambiguous indications given simultaneously at the beginning of the stride during which you want him to execute his flying change.

If you build up to the flying change from a counter canter then the horse will have no doubt about what is required from him and you have no problems with him understanding that thereafter if you ask for it that's what you want.

So I'd suggest you now work on the counter canter and ensure you're getting that right and then from that re-establish the flying lead change.

Here's what I'd have you do.........

establish the canter on a fairly large circle (minimum 20 metre) and lets presume to the right, making sure you emphasise the bend by keeping his nose turned slightly to the right and sitting firmly in "position right" with your left leg back and weight on the right knee, urging him on in collected canter. Now WITHOUT changing his head position and WITHOUT altering your position at all in the saddle, apply opening rein with the left hand and indirect rein in front of the withers with the the right hand. At the same time pat him on the girth with the right right leg.

He should swing away to the left of the circle.

After a couple of strides bring your hands across to the right and discontinue the activity of your right leg so that he moves back onto a curve towards the right and parallel to the original circle.

Make sure he doesn't lose his bend to the right and just make a small sway to the left of the straight line. Repeat this on the other lead on a circle on the left rein.

When you're confident you can keep the bend the way you want, then increase the distance covered in counter canter and try turning a little more sharply. Be careful that you don't collapse on the bend and if so then steer strongly towards the leading leg to avoid confirming the horse in the habit of cantering on the wrong leg.

Once you've got this established and part of normal schooling routine, then progress to flying change: So establish your counter canter "position right". Warn him you're going to ask for something different and with a half half, or emphasis of collection. both hands in direct rein position and his nose slight to the right though he's moving gentle curve to left. Raise right hand only very slightly as part of the indication for half halt. After the change of lead you're going to steer strongly to a left turn and this turn to the left will be an indication to him that he should be cantering on the left lead. This will mean you're going to then sit "position left"

The change in saddle position is the most important indication for a change of lead. Your moving your weight over from right knee to left knee, bringing the left leg forward on the girth, moving the right leg back. At the same time move his nose over slightly from right to left by pulling the open rein position with the hand raised and apply indirect rein in front of the withers with the right hand at regular height, steer firmly left. the horse will change his bend and strike off on the left lead.

If you build up to the flying change in this way, then the horse has no doubt about what is required of him and you should have no problems. Also be on the look out for a sloppy change and only once he's learned to do a really neat change on a straight line only then get him to change say after 6 strides, 4 then 2.

Keep the work varied between counter canter and flying change and then you can move on to half pass and shoulder in at canter and introduce those too.

p.s. I sincerely hope you appreciate just how hard it is for me to sit and type what I train?! ;) You've no idea how daft I look sitting on a chair in front of a computer with my hands and legs going as if I'm riding a horse!! I sincerely hope I've not forgotten something important too!!! :winkgrin:

[Spectrum]

I would like to utter my unending gratitude for all the input I've received on this thread. Everyone who has posted on here has had their own slight variations and comments, and altogether it makes for an extremely helpful set of "diatribes"! :)

To answer Thomas's question, I never really had to "teach" this mare the aid for the change, which is what makes me suspect someone else might have attempted them with her before.

She's ultra-sensitive to certain things, one of which is my balance at the canter. The counter-canter was a huge bugger for us for a while because if I adjusted myself in any way, shape or form she would swap in front before I could even register that I had done anything.

So I spent a great deal of time getting myself rock-solid and exaggerated on my aids for the canter lead so she wouldn't have any "openings" so to speak. I also spent a great deal of time working on simple changes, picking up the lead I asked for (regardless of direction of travel) and halting, walking and re-establishing the counter-canter lead if she did manage to sneak in a swap.

The result was that our counter-canter was going quite well! Then last week I decided to test our aids for the change (which maybe weren't every really "taught" to her, but the seemed to be as if I asked, she'd immediately change). When I got zero response, I did a remedial lesson on the aids for the change by doing mediums across a diagonal and asking for the change as I approached the wall. It took 2 tries, but I got a change (albeit late).

She seems to have remembered that switching legs means switching leads, so I'm going to use the counter exercises everyone has suggested to try to "put it together" more and get my timing better, along with her engagement. This mare is very light in front at the canter and "sits" extremely well, so I think if I can get a counter-canter with a nice jump to work from, I'll get a better picture of what's going on.

Keep in mind we've worked on this for only about a fraction of 2.5 rides. I'm just trying to make sure I maximize her chances of success and minimize my chances of establishing bad habits.

There is a really good clinician coming up to our area in a few weeks that I plan to ride with, and hopefully get some additional help. I'm not going to push it too much in the meantime, but I will definitely try out some of the counter-canter exercises just to see how it goes. If I run into problems I'll put it on the back burner until the clinician is here.

Thanks again!
Spectrum.

[Tanyanoel]

I just wanted to jump in to say thank you for the great read! My horse just got to the point last week that I felt he was ready to start working on the changes and lo and behold today during a lesson my trainer said she felt he was ready and we will be starting them in the morning.

I have seen many horses learn the changes over the years with my trainer and I am excited to be starting this journey and happy that I found this thread today to remind me that like everything else in dressage this is a long journey!

[Thomas_1]

Keep in mind we've worked on this for only about a fraction of 2.5 rides. I hadn't appreciated that.

To answer Thomas's question, I never really had to "teach" this mare the aid for the change, which is what makes me suspect someone else might have attempted them with her before.

She's ultra-sensitive to certain things, one of which is my balance at the canter. The counter-canter was a huge bugger for us for a while because if I adjusted myself in any way, shape or form she would swap in front before I could even register that I had done anything.

I'm now thinking that this might be "my sort of horse" light and responsive and unspoilt.

You sit wrong and you get what you ask for though it might not be intended.

IME, these are the absolute best providing you bring them on well.

Working with a really good trainer (of horses and people) is best advised in view of what you've now said.

[~Freedom~]

Freedom, BE WARNED..... this is likely to be a diatribe! ;)



LOL Thomas your diatribe is MORE than welcome because it stayed on topic and actually gave readable information.

Oh and you don't profess to core dump either.

[Spectrum]

So last night I went out and tested out the 20m counter-canter circle method. My review on this exercise is A++++!

What a fantastic exercise in so many ways- it benefitted our counter-canter, our simple changes, and for *THE FIRST TIME EVER* when my mare swapped accidentally it was CLEAN!!!

I've gotten clean changes that I have *asked* for in the past, but this mare has NEVER swapped on her own cleanly before (including at liberty, on the longe, etc). I was ELATED!!! :) :) :) To me this says absolute volumes about how well this exercise helped me put her together. And unlike doing the same exercise large, she was much less hot about doing the repeated simple changes and consistently concentrated without getting overly excited. We got a couple clean changes (we only asked for 3- I mostly worked on the counter-canter and simple changes to keep things simple). And unlike attempting changes across the diagonal, I was able to smoothly transition into counter-canter serpentines and other cc exercises without her anticipating a potential change.

THANKS GUYS!!!! I feel like the light bulb is really starting to come on for her (and for me, training the changes for the first time).

And yes, Thomas, this mare has a really fantastic tendency to offer things up to the rider. That can be a plus or a minus, but almost always is a plus. This is my "must get a filly out of this mare no matter what" horse. Her babies are also ultra-smart and are knock-out movers. I've decided that instead of breeding her this year or next, however, I'm going to do my best to try to get my third and fourth level scores on her first. It seems silly to try to breed myself a new potential FEI horse when I have a horse I can bring along to 4th really easily if I get her trained to changes.

Spectrum.

[Thomas_1]

So last night I went out and tested out the 20m counter-canter circle method. My review on this exercise is A++++!

What a fantastic exercise in so many ways- it benefitted our counter-canter, our simple changes, and for *THE FIRST TIME EVER* when my mare swapped accidentally it was CLEAN!!!

I've gotten clean changes that I have *asked* for in the past, but this mare has NEVER swapped on her own cleanly before (including at liberty, on the longe, etc). I was ELATED!!! :) :) :) To me this says absolute volumes about how well this exercise helped me put her together. And unlike doing the same exercise large, she was much less hot about doing the repeated simple changes and consistently concentrated without getting overly excited. We got a couple clean changes (we only asked for 3- I mostly worked on the counter-canter and simple changes to keep things simple). And unlike attempting changes across the diagonal, I was able to smoothly transition into counter-canter serpentines and other cc exercises without her anticipating a potential change.

Pleased it helped. I'll post my bill :winkgrin:

Do you think when I grow up I could be a Classical Riding Instructor? ;)