Where are the "Old Model" Warmbloods in the U.S.?

[Mike Matson]

Anyone know where the "old model" registered warmbloods are in the U.S.? These are warmbloods with no TB in them. Big boned, big bodied. Just what this 6'6" guy needs. :)

[FuelsterFarm]

I have a client that breeds "old model" Oldenburgs - usually 2-4 per year. Additionally, there is a small Dutch breeder here using "old model" horses, I am doing the same with my Trakehners on a very small scale... all of us are in Wisconsin, of all places.

It seems we are few and far between, as the current trend is for the "modern" type.

[LD1129]

Check out Hilltop Farm in MD. My trainer has a Hanoverian gelding they bred from their stallion Parabol. He is 6 years old and 18.2 last measure but he is still growing. He has huge everything body, bones ect.

[Mozart]

I think you will be hard pressed to find WBs with no TB in them, even a few generations back. You can find older looking models even with TB close up. My current riding horse is more old model, only 16.1 but big and solid with lots of bone. He would not look out of place in a book of old style Hanoverians. He is by Fernet Branca (who is by Furioso II, lots of TB there) out of an Silberpfeil/TB mare. Silberpfeil was a Holsteinter but he had a lot of blood too. Yet mine is a solid, substantial boy. Go figure!

Maybe advertise in horses wanted sections asking for big, old style registered WBs?

[redhorse5]

He is a Holsteiner by Acobat II. He is now 13. He was 17.1 when I got him but after a lonnnnng growth spurt he's over 18HH. So you can find them.

http://picasaweb.google.com/sallygreyhorse/TopperOver?authkey=Wg64VjAs7QU

[not again]

A friend of Tasker's on this board has a 17.2 gelding by Wagner. Check with her about his type and others like him. He is definitely not modern but very light on his feet and showing Intermediare 1.

[Dixon]

Consider a Cleveland Bay.

[Ibex]

A barnmate has an Alberta bred CWB by a Hannovarian out of a Cleveland Bay/TB cross - he's looks a lot like an old-style WB, and has a ton of substance.

[AdAblurr02]

<SNIP> Big boned, big bodied. Just what this 6'6" guy needs. :)
Well, if you are not stuck on German breeding (or Dutch), you might consider an Irish Draught or Irish Draught Sporthorse. All the size and bone you could ask for, soundness, correct movement, terrific trainability and work ethic, magnificent temperament.

Do not believe people who tell you "Irish horses can't do dressage" - it's just that there are finally more dressage people who are beginning to ride Irish horses! with great success, I might add :)

Kate

[Coreene]

Oh, I just love them to bits. My favorites!

[Sandy M]

I've got my bebe so I'm not in the market, but I saw an ad for a horse out here in the SF Bay Area that was a 17.3 Holsteiner/Appaloosa, supposedly a great mover and with color. Yee-hah!!!!!

[kashmere]

my BO's broodmare is an old-style, heavy L-line Hanoverian. She's planning a breeding for next year i believe.


we are, however, in Nova Scotia, Canada.

[MagicRoseFarm]

Our boy Beste Gold is 18 hands, but very light and elegant for his size. He does have some TB blood but is suitable for a man your size..

This bay by Feiner Stern is 1/4 TB and is also a very easy ride. These photos were taken of him at age 4, so he has grown and filled out more. The rider is 6'6" .

You do not have to sacrifice quality for a good fit!!

[dressagediosa]

I have a client with a Londonderry (xx)-Wenzel I gelding. He's 18.1. He was bred by Rolling Stone Farm - http://www.unbridledcreative.com/rollingstonefarm/index.shtml

[mademoiselle]

These breeders have both types, modern light sporthorse, but also older Holeteiner bloodlines without any TB in them.
http://www.petersonwarmbloods.com/

Their stallion Future is really nice :
http://www.petersonwarmbloods.com/future_.html

[staceyk]

I second Rolling Stone Farm, they have some Welcome S babies. Gold Luck doesn't produce monsters but they're pretty substantial with good minds. Landkoenig offspring tend to be big too.

Finally, High Point Hanoverians has a full brother to my 2 year old, who will be big. He's gorgeous and black, out of a big gorgeous Rubenstein mare. Think his name is denmark. But he's a baby, not a riding horse.

Stacey

[Lieslot]

I agree you don't see that many 'old models' around anymore.
I've got an 18hh big bodied DWB, which my 6'5" husbands rides from time to time. ((sorry keeping him ;))
http://lieslot.tripod.com/mehorsees/Magnus1.JPG
http://lieslot.tripod.com/mehorsees/HPIM0997.JPG
He's a pleasant allrounder really, been heavily foxhunted in the past, now enjoying dressage and some jumping. No highflyer, but nice solid chap :).
My husband would like another one just like him and even when browsing ads in the Netherlands, there aren't that many around. We always have our eyes open for another 18h+ like him, but they really aren't that easy to come by. Plus the fact that some of those taller guys, seem to be priced a little over top because of the extra hand in height I wonder? I saw 2 nice german ones 18h+ on equine.com however. Do you browse the online ads?

Belgian Warmbloods may be an option for you too and I swear if you look at some local ads over there they are not expensive, but of course current $ & import cost doesn't help.

I also agree with others ID x-es are great horses too. Some Irish Draft X TB's are very solid looking. I didn't think they were easy to find around here, I haven't seen many in the US so far. That's what I tell my husband, if he wants another solid mount but no full draft, then an irish sporthorse might be the way to go.

[Sassenach]

Well, if you are not stuck on German breeding (or Dutch), you might consider an Irish Draught or Irish Draught Sporthorse. All the size and bone you could ask for, soundness, correct movement, terrific trainability and work ethic, magnificent temperament.

Do not believe people who tell you "Irish horses can't do dressage" - it's just that there are finally more dressage people who are beginning to ride Irish horses! with great success, I might add :)

Kate

Ditto!

Friend in Ireland who is 6'6 has a 17.2 hand built like a tank but as light as a cat on his feet. Can't go wrong with the RID (or ISH) for bone, substance, trainability, athleticism and work ethic :yes:

[Mike Matson]

Thanks to everyone for their informative posts. It give me some encouragement that I might be able to find what I'm looking for in the U.S. before having to look in Europe. After riding an "Old Model" for the last six years, I love the size, conformation, and movement. I'll be in touch with some of you via PM.

Looking forward to more posts! :)

[Tiki]

TB blood is not necessarily refining, and many of the old style WB's had heavy bodies but short legs. I had a gelding I bred, out of a 16.2h TB mare by a 16.2h WB stallion, who turned out to be 17.3h, and he was more than 1/2 TB. He consistently got 8's on his gaits and his rider was told he would get 9's if she would leave him alone!

There are 'pure' WB's that are 15.3h - 16h. You can't always go by bloodlines. I have a gorgeous ISH mare that I bred - 1/2 RID and 1/2 TB who is just over 16.3, deep heart girth to take up a lot of leg, and a gorgeous mover. Her sire has competed and place at PSG and I think I-1, qualified for USDF Regional Championship at PSG level, AND he's won a modified open and an open jumping championship. My girlfriend has had some big ones with no TB, I've had some big ones with TB. You just have to look at what's out there. There are PLENTY of good ones in this country.

[canticle]

Out of curiosity, is it harder to get the old-style WBs approved? This might be one reason we don't see more of them. :confused:

[mademoiselle]

Out of curiosity, is it harder to get the old-style WBs approved? This might be one reason we don't see more of them. :confused:


Yes it is ... One of my client, gelded one of her stallions, because everybody said he was 'old fashioned'. He is not clucky or heavy (he actually has a pretty head with a lot of expression, but he looks like the WB from the 80s with a lot of bone and substance.

The modern type, more elegant type, with very extravagant gaits is 'in' for the moment.

[europa]

I have an old Hanoverian line that I have been breeding to Oldenburgs.

I have my broodie, a yearling, a two year old and a 10 year old 17.1 1500er. He is a beast and is the goofiest horse on the planet. 56 girth and extra long reins.

Give me a couple of years and I will have one for ya.

[DieBlaueReiterin]

my mare is a very old style type with hardly any tb in her background. here is her allbreedpedigree

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/pikabo

she's by pik immer, pik bube's grandson. her dam was latunja but she's deceased. my horse was the first horse bred by peter hansen (a licensed bereiter from holland) in the US. i'm not sure if he still does breeding but here's his farm website

http://www.foxdenfarm-usa.com/

[Bearskin]

Here you go--and he's not far from you!

http://sanktgeorgfarm.com/Sankt%20Georg/Grandos.htm

[Oakleigh]

I have all the old styles in my breeding herd....sorry. But, their offspring are fabulous! Take a look at my website. 17.2 hands, 2 of them...

Oakleigh

[DiscoMom]

I have a 17.3 hand warmblood sired by Warkanson (who is located in Canada). Love him to death. I have had male clinicians ride him who were well over 6 feet tall and he still had room to spare! I did a bloodline search for his offspring and there are several others out there who are substantial. (Just another line to consider).

[Tasker]

I have a stallion and a mare...lovely old out-of-fashion pedigrees! But I am leary of posting their bloodlines as we do have a breeding farm and it could be construed as advertising! :)

The Wagner gelding that was mentioned earlier is _very_ old fashioned in appearance however he is light on his feet, proportioned and has good engagement from behind. Here is his pedigree
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/worth+the+wait3 Willy is a genuine 17.2 and just a fine example of a good amateur's horse - everyday is a sunny one! :) :yes:

[Coreene]

many of the old style WB's had heavy bodies but short legs.Willem was like that, he was 17.3hh and weighed 1600 lbs, but he had short legs. Oliver is more Hols than anything else, but with lots of TB in cross, and even though he is also 17.3-and-some and wears an 88 blanket, the TB really stands out and - to me at least - he looks much more refined.

Mike, too bad a gal at our barn isn't selling hers. He's 18.2 and a giant gray Hano, built like a brick shithouse and perfect for you. Thinks he's tiny.

[dutchfan]

I know an imported 2003 gelding for sale in my area. 17.1 and growing. More oldfashioned in style. Donnerhall bred out of the same damline as Brentina. PM me if you want more details

[Cowgirl]

I was going to tell you to look for a Pik Bube decendant! A friend of mine has two of them and they are both tanks and both have lovely movement, athletic and sweet dispositions. But the funniest part is that they are such tanks that the mare fools you in her size. She is 16.2, but looks 17.2 to me and could take up anyone's leg. So don't get too hung up on the height if you find the right body type. One of her horses is by Pik Solo, a stallion in California owned, I think, by Lilo Fore. I did a quick google and there are several Pik Solo's for sale that fit your description.

Also, if anyone around has a Don Schufro baby around, that hasn't been lightened too much by the mare side, that is another I'd recommend. Fabulous movement, trainable, etc. It is Donnerhall x Pik Bube, but danish and oldenburg. I don't know how many are in the US though.

My mare is a tank. She is by Bernstein Las Marismas x May Sheriff (I think I sent you a video of her and you selected her freestyle music). She is only 16.2 but everyone thinks she's much taller. She is a little hot though (understatement), but I like them that way.

[Oakstable]

I have a Hano cross gelding who is a tank and he's out of a TB mother.

I don't think he'll grow past 16.2H but he is big bodied and big boned.

Don't rule out TB blood in a pedigree.

[Dixon]

Mr. Matson: This video has what you are looking for, albeit this one is outside the U.S. You can look for its offspring, or search Texas for something similar: http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=SUgXt-RTi5I. The video was originally posted by Dresstar in the thread titled "This is must see."

[columbus]

We really have some of the worlds nicest Irish Draughts here in the US. Until now though they have been very young and finally we are getting to the point where we have started horse for sale and youngsters to prove the stallions.
I have used this stallion on my mare.
http://www.adsagsona.com/News/Breeding_News.htm
My mare is on an obvious sale page so I can't post her. It's making me crazy. So I am trying to think of others to show the potential...lotsof big moving but pregnant mares. This mare is one of the legends in the breed http://www.benmarfarm.com/RomaBlueHawkRIDMareGallery.html
Here is a pictorial page from a friends web site
http://www.irishdraughts.com/Irish_Draught_Pictorial.htm I wish they showed the big movement we are finding but they show traditional type Irish Draughts with very little TB blood.
Trainers like them because they make them look good. They are good citizens.
Pat Orgas
Merrypath Irish Draughts

[ClaraLuisa]

'Cause although I can't afford to replace the old mare now, I want another just like her when I can. She's by Wendepunkt out of a TB mare, not too big (16.1) but strong and solid. Also the smartest horse in the barn, BY FAR. I don't know if that's related to her breeding, but it adds a dimension that I'd hate to give up!

[FriesianX]

I introduced a bit of "Dutch" lines into my lighter Warmbloods - Dutch as in Friesian! Got back the bone, end up with nice, big bodied horses with big feet, but light, elastic movement. Great minds, flashy but gentle. I'm not saying all Friesian crosses are created equal - but there are a few of us out there using European WB bloodlines crossed to nice Friesians. And for many of us, one of the big goals is to improve bone and foot and mind!

www.MysticOakRanch.com - for some pictures of my specific horses

[FriesianX]

By the way, it IS harder to get the old style horses approved now. Very disapointing going to the inspections and hearing them rave about the modern horses and turn down the old style ones :no:

[magnum]

Hi Mike --

I have found the Canadian Trakehner breeders to continually produce a heavier bodied mount with superb confirmation and with a VERY SOUND mind. Look for lines with Mahogany, Vincent and the "Pregel" and "Tannen" names in the line. Particularly the PREGELSTRAND line. They are heavier, wonderful movers and *thinkers!*

Good luck!

Magnum

[magnum]

Here he is ... born 1970, deceased 2005.

http://americantrakehner.com/Stallions/pregelstrand.asp

[Coreene]

I remember Pregelstrand. He was one of the first WBs that was in the old Horses magazine, along with Young Wolfsburg.

Love stumbling upon copies of that mag!

[GreekDressageQueen]

Question - is it harder to get "old school" WBs approved only in the US or is that also true in Europe? I ask because I've seen a few horses coming out of Europe that are a lot more heavy in bone than their US counterparts. I attribute this to the fact that the European mare base is not as concentrated in TB blood as the mares American breeders use. Height is one thing, but that doesn't always equal substance.

To the OP - I also suggest RID or ISH (because that is what I have and I love them) but you should also consider taking a trip overseas to see if you can find something more to your liking. I know American breeders will flame me for saying this, but honestly, the number of foals born each year in Europe is like 30,000+ compared to the 6,000 (maybe) a year in the US. You are bound to find something more to your liking. Both my cousin and an old friend bought Dutch horses a few years back - the mare is huge 18hh with HEAVY bone (I actually thought she was a Belgium Draft cross or something because she is soooo heavy) and my cousin's gelding is about 17hh with what I would consider medium bone. The mare was bred for dressage and the gelding is a jumper so that might also contribute to the type of horse you are looking for. Both are superb quality horses and they paid about 1/2 of what it would cost them to purchase the same quality here in the US. Although, if "old school" WBs are out of fashion in the US you might be able to find one priced low to move if other potential buyers don't want it because of the bone, height, etc.

You might also want to post your question in the Sport Horse Breeding Forum to find out if anyone is breeding the heavier types or what bloodlines consistently produce what you want here in the US. If you find out some good info let us know - I would like a heavier style Hano myself!

Good luck!

[Stacie]

I have to second Rolling Stone Farm. Not only do they have some older stallions but they have some really really nice older style mares. Modern ones, too. Go to their website and check out Whellington, for an example of an older style boy. He is a 2007 model.
I have a Welcome foal due in April out of a mare by Grusus (who would be something like 25 if he were alive). So this foal has some very old blood up front.

[magnum]

I remember Pregelstrand. He was one of the first WBs that was in the old Horses magazine, along with Young Wolfsburg. Love stumbling upon copies of that mag!

Yes, and it just occurred to me .... I don't have one! Yet, they are some of the best horses that I have ever worked with and ridden. Consistent winners for me in the ring .... pretty movers, easy keepers and pleasant fellows on top of that. .. OK, next item on my TO DO list is .... :D

Magnum

[siegi b.]

I think you guys are waxing sentimental.... :-) Those big, old horses weren't exactly easy to ride and also weren't known for their "electric" hind leg. :-)

How many times have you seen some 5' 3" lady on one of those giants and laughed behind her back? How many times have you heard those horses called "men's horses"?

In my opinion there is a place for a broodmare that is older in style because you can breed to one of those modern boys and maybe get a nice medium-weight offspring - see Salinero. For the rest of the folks that think they may want to ride a heavy horse there are lots of draft crosses, Friesians, and majikal GVs that should give you a comparable ride.

[RonaldGroen]

Mr. Matson

You need a Holzsteiner or a Belgian Cold Blood

[canticle]

Old-type WB may not be perfect for everyone, but it would be a shame for them to die out completely. Some day they will probably be back in style and then it will be very difficult to find good ones. :no:

[FriesianX]

I think you guys are waxing sentimental.... :-) Those big, old horses weren't exactly easy to ride and also weren't known for their "electric" hind leg. :-)

How many times have you seen some 5' 3" lady on one of those giants and laughed behind her back? How many times have you heard those horses called "men's horses"?

In my opinion there is a place for a broodmare that is older in style because you can breed to one of those modern boys and maybe get a nice medium-weight offspring - see Salinero. For the rest of the folks that think they may want to ride a heavy horse there are lots of draft crosses, Friesians, and majikal GVs that should give you a comparable ride.

Anytime you see someone overhorsed, it isn't pretty. You can't blame that on the old style WBs though. I've seen plenty of riders on light modern horses that looked quite intimidated and rode tense and tight. It would be a shame if we bred the WB out of WB and made them all modern hotbloods.

I'm also hoping you aren't including Draft crosses and Friesians (and Friesian crosses) in the "majikal GV" group - GVs are not really dressage horses, but there are plenty of very nice, very capable DraftXs, Friesians, and Friesian crosses that are genuine dressage competitors.

There have been several threads recently on people who missed the heavier style horses. Not just for riding type, but because they are sturdier - less lameness issues, longer lasting horses.

[Zevida]

I think you guys are waxing sentimental.... :-) Those big, old horses weren't exactly easy to ride and also weren't known for their "electric" hind leg. :-)

For the 6'6" guys like Mike, a tall old style horse fill fill up the leg and help balance out his high. For the 5'11" super-plus size girls like me, we need a big horse and even though an old-style warmblood won't have the same "electric" movement as the more modern type, they'll still have some of the warmblood movement. It is a little silly to suggest a draft cross in that case.

My horse is an Oldenburg x Appendix. He doesn't have quite the height you're looking for Mike but he definitely fits the bill with regards to size and bone. His dam was the Appendix and her name was Tank, so I'm guessing she was from old-style Quarter Horse lines - they can get pretty bulky. Crossed with a warmblood I ended up with a nice horse with a great temperament. So I'll agree with others that say don't toss out a horse just because they have some Thoroughbred in them.

Also, often the only reason a horse is classified as a "man's horse" is because the horse was ridden poorly by a man. The horse was allowed to be heavy in the hand and/or the man used upper body strength to pull the horse together. That is a result of incorrect training and not gender or type of horse. I may be a lady of large carriage but I don't have much upper body strength and I have no problems riding my "tank" - because he is ridden lightly and goes lightly.

[jlmckinley]

"It would be a shame if we bred the WB out of WB and made them all modern hotbloods."

Not meaning to stir the pot, but I thought it was necessary to add that I've ridden and seen what some would classify as hot-tempered old-style-built wbs and super mellow tempered modern-built wbs. Just like TB blood does not always guarantee refinement, modern-built horses are not necessarily all running around in a hot sweat and requiring a two hour warm up.

It is my experience that physical type is not a prerequisite for a hot or high strung horse. Specific bloodlines and socialization are definitely a factor, but not necessarily a modern build.

*****

Added - I also just saw a comment about older style wbs having less lameness issues and lasting longer? I am really just curious about this? Have there been any studies done?

We breed and raise AHS and GOV wbs and some are more modern than others and I haven't noticed this phenomenon, but we have a very small sample size at our farm.

[not again]

There was a study a while back dropping the average age for unsoundness to appear in more modern bloodlines from 13 to 11 or even 9 in some cases. I'll try to find it.

[jlmckinley]

That would be helpful to read and assess. I'd be curious to know which bloodlines too. Definitely point me in the direction once you find it, thanks.

[petitefilly]

http://www.irishdraughts.com/Irish_Draught_Pictorial.htm I wish they showed the big movement we are finding but they show traditional type Irish Draughts with very little TB blood.
Trainers like them because they make them look good. They are good citizens.
Pat Orgas
Merrypath Irish Draughts

This was my thought too. I think you could find an Irish Draught more easily than a strictly *old time* warmblood. I do believe 99% of all Wbs have a 1/4 Arab or Tb in them these days. I look forward to finding any posted here too! :) I have not seen one in about five to eight years myself. The "modern" type Wb is considered the norm these days. I do remember when Judy Yancey started importing Tks to lighten the heavy Wbs of the time, and she's still selling Wbs today, but they are the light type.

Have you thought about the Cleveland Bay also? Again, someone mentioned them and I know people who have been more than happy with them. Though, they tend to top out at third level most of the time with dressage. ??? What are you strictly looking for? Maybe an ad with your particulars in the classifieds would help?

[TBlitz]

I'm not really a dressage person, but the Irish Draught has been used in dressage. O' Leary's Irish Diamond (http://www.irishdraughthorse.com/Colorado_Dressage.html) is a wonderful example. He competed up to PSG and has also done show jumping. I don't know much about Western Sun (http://www.irishdraught.com/horses/profile.php?unid=5012), but he sure has a lovely trot!

An Irish horse shouldn't be too hard to find in the US... I swear over 1/2 the US ID and IDSH breeders post on COTH

An Irish horse would surely take up the leg of a tall person... I may have to find one of you tall people to ride my little one in a few years if he doesn't stop growing soon :winkgrin:

[freestyle2music]

If you are looking for something big, with lots of potential

Meet XXL (size 1.86 mtr)

http://www.edwardgal.nl/?p=51&id=6&l=EN

[Lieslot]

If you are looking for something big, with lots of potential

Meet XXL (size 1.86 mtr)

http://www.edwardgal.nl/?p=51&id=6&l=EN
Gosh I didn't realize XXL was by Krack C, boy, where have I been all this time? :lol:
Krack C has indeed produced some seriously tall guys, my grey pickle is the same height and same age too. Just doesn't go that well, wonder who's to blame here, (uhm looking at rider :lol:).
Anyways these guys look really well with tall men, nice........
But wouldn't you consider these the 'newer' models however? Slimmer framed etc ?

Has XXL produced any offspring? I can't believe I didn't know about him.

[austin]

has anyone mentioned horses by contender? old type but lovely horses.

[NoDQhere]

We have an "old style" Holsteiner mare here, solid as a tank, head like a hay bale, big feet. But she is as hot as a $2.00 pistol. Much hotter under saddle than any of our modern types.

I think Siegi makes some pretty valid points. The older style WBs I've dealt with over the years have been anything but easy!

[DownYonder]

I also agree with Siegi. Those big, heavy WBs were often slow in mind and body, which is why most of the European WB registries have been moving to a lighter type. Most buyers these days are adult amateur women that just can't push a 17.2h behemoth around the ring, and most top professionals also want something lighter and quicker on the aids, also with a quicker hindleg so that upper level movements are easier.

There are still some nice older type horses around though. As already suggested, you might want to look at Cleveland Bays or Irish Draughts, or warmbloods sired by stallions like Davignport, Disco Dernier, Donnerschlag, Donovan, Don Shufro, Waldaire, Welcome, etc., esp. if the damline doesn't have much "blood" up close in the pedigree.