Halter Horse

[europa]

Okay I know that I will probably offend someone (and I don't mean to) but I recently visited a QH Halter Horse barn and I am still mentally damaged from the experience.

WTF is that all about....someone explain this to me!

[caffeinated]

I'd try, but I don't get it either.

[BarBee4]

From what I know-a lot of them breed strictly for the heavily muscled look. I hate seeing such heavily muscled horses with such small feet-lameness issues waiting to happen if you ask me. Some of them also do not do anything else other than halter, which to me detracts from the best feature of the breed, which is versatility. However- AQHA has introduced "Performance Halter" classes so we'll have to see how those go.

[europa]

The place was like a hothouse (78+) and all were blanketed. I have not seen muscles like that since the steroid frenzy of the late 80s!! Of course all there legs were toast and they were soo stiff they could barely turn around in their stalls.

I guess the real end for me was when they used a rolling pin to even out the fat on the crest. And they never get out EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why would you do this?

[Fairview Horse Center]

I hear the WP horses also have their heads tied to the ceiling. :no: :cry:

[europa]

OMG Darlyn they did so that all the fat went to their necks!!!! I was soo sad for the horses....they were gorgeous and I have a MAJOR soft spot in my heart for QHs

[bugsynskeeter]

I hear the WP horses also have their heads tied to the ceiling. :no: :cry:

The BAD trainers do this...don't believe it of the whole industry. It was big back in the early 90s...but the industry is moving way past that. Those horses are mostly bred to move with their heads that way.

Please don't spread rumors about an industry that you don't have experience with.

[Hillside H Ranch]

I have a big problem with a lot of halter horse barns, too. However, I think that most breeds/disciplines in the equine world have their fair share of bad trainers/owner/breeders. I've seen good halter horse management and bad, same goes for the western pleasure. But look at the big lick Tennessee Walking horses, the horse drugging problem in the hunters and jumpers, the TB industry who has a vast number of lame/injured horses before they even reach maturity. I think each segment has its own areas of abuse that need to be addressed. When it comes to winning, some people will, sadly, do whatever it takes.

[europa]

If it happens at all that is enough. Where is PETA when you need them....and believe me I am the last one to speak for them.

The point is that it exists and it is in the QH realm......I could talk about the TWH people all day long. People are people. There are good and bad but let's face the facts.

You might not like it because you are part of the industry and don't conduct yourself like them but BY GOD if the WB people were doing these things I would be screaming and hollaring.

Oh did I mention that they had a pile of sand at least 2 foot deep that they lunge them in to exhaustion. I stupidly asked the lady when they were going to spread the sand out and she looked at me cross eyed.

Are you saying that this was all a figment of my imagination.....don't get me started. It broke my heart and I am still bothered by it all.

[RheinlandPfalzSaar]

At the barn where I board someone just bought a horse that is supposedly some western pleasure hunter type horse that had NEVER been turned out other than an occasional 30 minutes or so in a round pen! I think the barn where she was previously kept her blanketed and 'slicked out' all the time too, btw she is 12 or 13. She gets t/o now with all the other horses and LOVES it! At first she was t/o by herself and she had to learn what to do with herself, now she is out with the other mares playing around!

I worked at a Saddlery and one of our customers used to ride at a western barn and the trainer there used bike chains in the horses mouths.

I have faith though that it's just the bad western barns we hear about where they do barbaric things like no t/o, bike chains, tying necks to ceilings.... ugh.

The sad thing is that I have never heard about any good western barns...

[horselifer88]

There are sour apples in every discipline, yes, but AQHA halter horses are bred SPECIFICALLY for halter---as in not performance. Most (as in the overwelming majority) halter horses simply CAN'T be ridden. It is completely out of control, through the AQHA themselves are trying to get a handle on it. Just google AQHA world champion halter horse and you will get yourself come real "winners."
for example
http://www.clarkrassi.com/fearles/RASSI-1207%20copy.jpg
http://www.lonemacfarm.com/dbs/stallions/images/1146449334.jpg

[katarine]

it's about fashion.

Some of it is this...When a horse like a QH is so readily available to the 'common man' - unlike a pricey WB- you see people taking horses utterly unsuited to the job- being forced to 'be' that horse, regardless- Silk purses from sow's ears and all that.

Next, AQHA is well aware that it's gotten a well deserved bad rap for the useless halter horses and the wrung out WP horses. Somewhere along the way leadership went down a greedy path...if you smash your members too hard...they'll just switch to paints, or apps, or palominos. They have seen the shows flatten or fall off in numbers of attendees...they know why, too. Too expensive, too 'elitist', too crooked, etc. They are working hard to expand other programs, encourage peeps to log their pleasure-riding miles in their RIDE program to earn rewards, they award outstanding remuda (breeding herd) awards, they are expanding/celebrating more stock-horse/working horse types of showing..to encourage those discouraged with AQHA to come back into the fold. also- you're seeing performance halter coming into the forefront- horses that are exhibited on the line, and under saddle, too.

Plenty of halter horses get turned out plenty- having personally turned out more than one WC and Congress halter winner to go roll in the mud, I know it happens ;) There's also plenty of NICE moving, happy, natural WP horses out there too- my vet's got one that's to die for, such a lovely happy horse- with the price tag to boot ;)

I'm sorry you visited a bad barn, and I do think they outnumber the good. I hope the tides continue to turn for the better.

[caffeinated]

There are sour apples in every discipline, yes, but AQHA halter horses are bred SPECIFICALLY for halter---as in not performance. Most (as in the overwelming majority) halter horses simply CAN'T be ridden. It is completely out of control, through the AQHA themselves are trying to get a handle on it. Just google AQHA world champion halter horse and you will get yourself come real "winners."
for example
http://www.clarkrassi.com/fearles/RASSI-1207%20copy.jpg
http://www.lonemacfarm.com/dbs/stallions/images/1146449334.jpg

Somewhere along the line, apparently, someone really misunderstood what "straight legs" was supposed to mean...

[Hillside H Ranch]

If it happens at all that is enough. Where is PETA when you need them....and believe me I am the last one to speak for them.

The point is that it exists and it is in the QH realm......I could talk about the TWH people all day long. People are people. There are good and bad but let's face the facts.

You might not like it because you are part of the industry and don't conduct yourself like them but BY GOD if the WB people were doing these things I would be screaming and hollaring.

Oh did I mention that they had a pile of sand at least 2 foot deep that they lunge them in to exhaustion. I stupidly asked the lady when they were going to spread the sand out and she looked at me cross eyed.

Are you saying that this was all a figment of my imagination.....don't get me started. It broke my heart and I am still bothered by it all.

It certainly isn't a figment of your imagination. And no, I'm not involved in the QH industry. I find it disgusting, too. I find it disgusting that the AQHA let HYPP be perpetuated for so long and is only now trying to get the problem under control. I'm simply stating that I feel it can be somewhat hypocritical for different horse industries to criticize one another when none of these industries is squeaky clean. As far as this type of stuff not happening in the WB world, puh-leeze. I think we've all seen hunters lunged "to death" And there was just a news item in the most recent issue of "The Horse" magazine (Feb 2008 pg 16) about the FEI having to initiate new exams to prevent show jumper abuse. Specifically that they are having to employ heat sensing equipment and examine legs for evidence of horses being intentionally sensitized (hyper-sensitized) to pain so that they lift their legs higher over jumps. If that isn't abuse I don't know what is!

[BarBee4]

The place was like a hothouse (78+) and all were blanketed. I have not seen muscles like that since the steroid frenzy of the late 80s!! Of course all there legs were toast and they were soo stiff they could barely turn around in their stalls.

I guess the real end for me was when they used a rolling pin to even out the fat on the crest. And they never get out EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why would you do this?

They don't go out (or if they do- it's by themselves) because they do not want any scars or blemishes. It's a shame, because it is really unfair to the horse.
As for tying the heads up of WP horses, well, the QH industry too has its problems. I would say though that most of the WP people that I know would never do that.

[europa]

Well, I guess I haven't seen the WB abuse but if I do you can Guarandamntee I will have something to say to that PARTICULAR person. HORRIBLE

BTW they also said that they prefer NH (HYPP) horses because they bulk up more.

At least the QHs now can go with a normal headset again! Thank goodness for small mercies. Don't get me on the TWHs.

Hypocritical is if I am doing it and saying it doesn't happen. That doesn't mean that I would not address it with anyone that I come in contact with....I would.

[eqsiu]

I am always awed when I watch working cow horse, reining and cutting classes. Those horses are amazing. And then I see the pleasure and halter horses...

Unfortunately the halter judges seem to be on crack. Or at least they need to take a class in basic horse conformation. The practices of the QH industry are unfortunately no worse than those you see in other disciplines. Some are better than others- I have never seen any nor heard of much abuse in the eventing world, and I don't hear anything about endurance either. In dressage rollkur is about the only thing. It just seems that in some areas of the horse world shady practices get one ahead, so then everyone does it and it becomes normal.

[PineTreeFarm]

The place was like a hothouse (78+) and all were blanketed.

While I do see your point you need to get out more. I've seen horses blanketed in Florida in BNT dressage barns. So what you are complaining about is not limited to Halter horses. Bad practice no matter who is doing it.

[Waterwitch]

The BAD trainers do this...don't believe it of the whole industry. It was big back in the early 90s...but the industry is moving way past that. Those horses are mostly bred to move with their heads that way.

Please don't spread rumors about an industry that you don't have experience with.

Sorry, you can say the industry is moving past it but around here head tying is still standard operating procedure for WP trainers...they don't even try to hide it because they see nothing wrong with it...it is sickening.

[caffeinated]

cripes.

I must stop googling (http://www.halvorsonranch.com/PhotoAlbum42/ObviouslyTheOnetm%20copy.jpg)

[europa]

The blanketing was not the real issue but in 78 why does the horse need total head to tail coverage? The point was they were tied, overfed and stiff......I wanted to take them all home. I am not the bleeding heart type typically but it really bothered me. Not to mention not sound and never got out. No wonder they were upright in the pasterns.......good grief some normal walking would be much healthier.

Say what everyone might this is WRONG

It isn't about me or my industry it is about cruelty

BTW having been around hunters all my life I can tell you that abuses I have seen were very situational and not the norm.

[eqsiu]

cripes.

I must stop googling (http://www.halvorsonranch.com/PhotoAlbum42/ObviouslyTheOnetm%20copy.jpg)

DLSD, here we come!

Or bulldog on steroids (http://www.bertonqh.com/index_bqh.htm). Four of their six stallions are HYPP N/H. One of the N/N boys is for sale.

[europa]

exactly.....look at the pasterns!

[europa]

http://www.bertonqh.com/index_bqh.htm

[europa]

click on Sir Cool Skip


HOLY CRAP

[caffeinated]

DLSD, here we come!

Or bulldog on steroids (http://www.bertonqh.com/index_bqh.htm). Four of their six stallions are HYPP N/H. One of the N/N boys is for sale.

The "Shanes Bake" page is particularly disturbing, for those who haven't seen it.

"training" and fitting aside- it kills me to see people breeding FOR traits that are not likely to produce sound horses- straight hind legs, straight pasterns, straight shoulder/tight angle-short humerus, teeeeny feet- it's a recipe for a lame horse. If you read the judging standards, they sound like any other conformation class, so how did it get so weird?

I looked at a bunch of ads, and the ones that DO show a horse moving show short, choppy, heavy on the forehand movement, and I saw several young stallions already in corrective shoeing.

Must stop, need to do some work, and this depresses me.

[horselifer88]

click on Sir Cool Skip


HOLY CRAP
http://www.bertonqh.com/images/sir_cool_skip_running_1_6_06.jpg


IS THAT A BEAR, OR A HORSE?!?!?!:confused::o:confused::o:eek:

[Hillside H Ranch]

Yes, I have always wondered how "it" happened; how these extreme horses became the standard. I don't have the answer, but I place the blame at the judges' feet. People will produce what wins and winners are worth $$$. Top halter horses will easily sell for 6 figures. In my area "nice quality" halter horse babies bring 8500 to 10,000. Follow the money trail. You have to change the judging, and while that is happening, it is very, very slow (too slow, IMHO). I don't think the blanketing, pumping them full of feed, etc is the cruelty. The cruelty is producing an animal that is crippled and often carries a genetic disease. To be up front, though, I feel the same way about the TB industry chewing up so many "babies" and having crippled 2 and 3 year olds come off the track by the trailer load. Happens to the reining horses, too. Most top, top reining horses have the peak of their career at 3 or 4 year old futurities and retire after that. Many don't hold up to that type of strenuous riding so early.

[Hillside H Ranch]

I'm not familiar with a lot of the horses that have been posted so far, but here is a link to the top trainer/handler in the halter world. Much like the HB world, it does matter who is on the end of the lead and in the halter world if you want to win, this is who needs to handle your horse. He stands some stallions, and it is eye opening, for sure.
www.turnerranchinc.com

[Sassenach]

We have a Halter-bred palomino QH stallion son of world champion Mr Be Downtown. He's an utter pet and the best natured stud I have ever met. He's an absolute baby and just adores being loved on.

I remember when we got him some of the QH people thought we were out of our minds.

We turned him out with a mare (pregnant) for company (reactions to that were: OMG What if he gets hurt?!!'). He's trained to ride and yes does get ridden.

And he does not look like a freak either. Hes got a pretty baby-doll head, long neck, he's tall at 16.2 hands, EXCELLENT feet (nice and big!) and legs, very good bone for his size and while he has muscle he doesn't look like an overly muscled monstrostiy.

When we looking we did come across a couple of :eek: QH people. One woman had about 4 chains on her stallion's face just to take him out of his stall :eek: needless to say we didn't buy him and beat the hell out of there.

The barn owner where I kept my first horse (QH gelding) was a long-time QH owner and shower and very much an 'old-timer' don't want to get him started on warped the QH has become :no:

[Foxtrot's]

It's just pathetic what these animals have to endure. One fellow told me they don't break their halter horses to ride because the saddle would put an indentation in the shoulder muscle.

However - the more these practices in all disciplines are exposed to the general public, the more pressure can be put on the industries. I also chalk it up to the judges.

The wonderful Quarterhorse. His mind - his talents - I dream of owning one who can go from behind, be light in hand and work of seat aids. Responsible trainers on this board describe it, but they are too few and far between.

But no - I have enough horses so I don't even THINK about it.

[RheinlandPfalzSaar]

Wow. Those websites are freaky, those horses look like bizarre alien horses - how does anyone even think that looks good? I don't get it at all... Would someone please tell me what exactly a halter horse is and what a WP horse is? I mean is a halter horse a halter horse like and that's it - they wear a halter? They just stand in a stall all day, look like their on steroids, never see the light of day, don't get ridden but do go to shows and get bred? I feel so bad for those horses and those little babies they are producing... this has to stop. This is horrible type of abuse.

[hackinaround]

The picutre of the one example of a dam of "A Legacy" one of the colts on the "Shanes Bake" page is totally disturbing. Is she foundered...you would breed that mare why? Just standing you can see so many reasons not to breed her!! Supposedly that mare sold for 100,000 twice even with a torn cervix. What is the wold coming too!

I am quiet annoyed with the trend that even youth QH type halter horses are being shown in lip chains? Isnt the QH breed supposed to be user friendly. Lip chains with kids on the other end? weanlings, yearlings,mares , geldings and stud....is that really needed. Or are they so over fed over steroided ,over whatever that they are freaking nuts !!

I dont care how nice ...couldnt imagine one of todays top hunter breeding weanlings showing in a lip chain and placing.

[eqsiu]

Would someone please tell me what exactly a halter horse is and what a WP horse is? I mean is a halter horse a halter horse like and that's it - they wear a halter? They just stand in a stall all day, look like their on steroids, never see the light of day, don't get ridden but do go to shows and get bred?

That is exactly what a halter horse is.

WP is a western pleasure horse. They are supposed to be smooth and easy with collected gaits. Often times they end up looking exceptionally lame and screwed up. The abuse trends there are lunging for hours, blood letting (I don't know if anyone does this anymore, but it was once a popular alternative to sedation), sedation, etc. All to make them move with 1' strides. They used to be nose to the floor peanut rollers, but now they are looking for a level topline. I don't know if that's how they actually judge it...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2RiHEOoEUY

[europa]

What is really disturbing is how much bigger in person they are!! It is unimaginable how huge they are......my nephew and I just had our jaws open the entire time.

I am telling you that NONE were sound according to the person I was talking to....no wonder....all that weight on little legs and no exercise for circulation. It really is criminal. What are they thinking? My WBs would kill if treated like that. They would never be soo tolerant.

[hackinaround]

This is someones foundation broodmare...what the hell!! http://www.ellisquarterhorses.com/bunnynew2006.htm

She is only 20. I have schooling horses that have been shown hard and now work 4 -5 days a week with kids whos legs look nothing like that.

Shoot I know broken down race mares with cleaner legs!

What are they breeding for.

[okggo]

This is the first I've seen horses this beefy...is this one for real http://www.doublelacres.com/DCPrecision.html or is that photoshopped?

OMG hackinaround, that poor mare!!! I wonder what on earth...

[eqsiu]

This is someones foundation broodmare...what the hell!! http://www.ellisquarterhorses.com/bunnynew2006.htm



Nice knees. :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: And they breed her to HYPP N/H stallions.

[caffeinated]

The ad photo "taken as a 2 year old" is quite photoshopped, but the other ones I think are real.

damnit, you got me looking (http://www.doublelacres.com/DCPrec63.jpg) again.

[spacely]

Positively vomitous. :dead: :dead:

Let's also not forget the navicular disease that runs rampant throughout these guys. The owners & trainers think nothing of it either. :mad:

[europa]

obviously not legs

[okggo]

The ad photo "taken as a 2 year old" is quite photoshopped, but the other ones I think are real.

damnit, you got me looking (http://www.doublelacres.com/DCPrec63.jpg) again.


The other ones were the ones I was referring too!! WOW!

[Live2Jump]

So, how to they get these horses to look so "blown up"? Do they actually use steriods, or could it possibly be natural?

Please tell me that there are still functional QHs being bred, too. If this is the future of the breed, what a loss. I really liked the QHs of my youth. Now this seems to be the only type that I see advertised for stud anymore. :(

[DeeThbd]

Quote from the sales page ...

"On her papers, Ima Cool Skip is the sire of three of the four grandparents in her pedigree".

And this is a good thing HOW?
They are deliberately breeding a horse with the potential for HYPP! Are they NUTS? And then INBREEDING?
I need some mind bleach.
I've read that these horses have a kind of double muscling genetically....I once saw an explanation of it existing in certain cattle breeds too.
Repellent.
Dee

[City Ponies]

OK I'm going to defend the AQHA - not that I think any of you are bashing the breed but individuals I know - but from someone who has showing AQHA and owned QH's for 13 years now I'm just going to explain. However, I do not endorse all.

Halter horses - They are kept in 65-75 degree barns in order to keep the show coat short short short. They do NOT body clip their show horses, they simply do not allow any winter coat to grow - this also means lights on about 14 -16 hours a day. This is also the reason these horses dont go outside in the winter, although many barns do turnout in the summer and let them get muddy and stanky! Most horses that are kept in all winter go on an indoor hotwalker, or get lunged inside. They do lunge for a long time, because it is all the exercise that horse will get, it also produces more muscle, and sweat defines the muscles. You will also see neck sweats to keep the necks "pencil thin" and a tight throatlatch. The muscle is inheritently bred 99% of the time. Foals pop out with muscle mass. BUUUTTT!!!! This is NOT limited to halter horses. Many foundation bred horses are bred, born, and grow with massive natural muscle as well. (** If anyone care to see links ask or google "foundation QH")

The difference is, foundation QH's are typically bred for ranch they develop longer thick muscles. Halter horses are bred for standing square, therefore the muscles are specific and since they do not use them in a normal (galloping, working) fashion, the muscles never elongated, stay short and grow out. Halter horses are also fed More Muscle or Fat Cat, and high protein sweet feed. More often than not, its not the size of the feet that puts these guys crippled. (though some crappy lines have 00 feet) it's HOW they are shod in combination of overweight too young. The feet of a halter horse are modified to be uniform and square with just the perfect degree in angle (aka none) with no regard to the horses conformation. Combine bad shoeing on ANY horse and then add the fact most of them will be close to 1000 lbs by the time they are long yearlings... and there's your crippling factor.

Now as for pleasure horses, yes crappy trainers use weighted bits, tie heads up, lunge to death. But that fad is seriously going out the door quickly. Many ammy/junior owners will not stand for antics like that anymore.

Hunter Under Saddle horses are at the most risk these days. They are breeding for for height. Anything over 16.2 is a must to win. This results in crossing w/ TB's who have bad conformation, leaving foals with some craptastic legs. They also keep HUS horses leaner than ideal to make them appear more fluid and elongated.

Now I have owned a former Congress winning halter horse (bought him as a 4 yr old after his win since the market for Aged Geldings in halter is nil), he had NO Impressive blood but due to his shitty feet he was chronically lame at age 8 (luckily I sold him before he had issues. But he did go on to be a nice Children's Jumper for a while. I then rode and showed another Halter winner (not big time) in Western Pleasure sucessfully for 2 years, he developed navicular at age 9, again No Impressive blood.

My current AQHA is actually Foundation bred 91%. His great-grandsires include Mr. Trouble Step (AQHA Halter Champion), Zippo Pine Bar (AQHA WP Champion) Take Care O Neall (Money Earning in ranch horse events). My gelding has shown in halter, and beat Impressive bred horses. He will show USEF this year as a 3 yr old in undersaddle classes. And next year he'll hopefully he'll be doing some ranch work his 4 yr old year as well.

So now that I've rambled.. I don't want to stand up for these people but just trying to fill in the blanks.. if I can find it I will post a link to a really horribly sad HUS stallion

[caffeinated]

More often than not, its not the size of the feet that puts these guys crippled. (though some crappy lines have 00 feet) it's HOW they are shod in combination of overweight too young.

I think the other big component is the whole front end conformation. I've seen a lot of pictures of horses with straight shoulders, a tight angle to an almost nonexistent armbone, along with very straight pasterns. To me, that's a recipe for disaster regardless of foot size- there's just NO apparatus for shock absorption there, which means a lot of stress and shock on the joints- just asking for lower leg/foot problems, IMO.

Would be interested in the HUS issue- I know I've seen at least one stallion that just looked strange, but appeared to be very popular because he was over 17 hands (http://www.skysblueboy.com/bsa.htm).

[europa]

What is sad is that it is the people. There are those kinds in every discipline but I think we need to keep it so they are ashamed of what they are doing. The problem is that in the TWH and QH Halter realms too often it is rewarded and that is a stinking shame.

Thanks for shedding some light on an already disturbing topic. The horses naturally have wonderful muscles they should just show them like we do our halter horses.....just polish them up and go.

The HYPP thing is disturbing....I can't get my mind around why you would continue to breed them. I know they are bulkier but come on people.

[City Ponies]

http://www.hiddenrockranch.com/zippy.html - Almost 20 yr old foundation QH still has muscle definition, and good legs!

http://www.hiddenrockranch.com/bud.html - His foal, my guy, top 2 pics are at 5 weeks (look at the sexy bubble butt!) .. and lower pics are at 2/3 weeks.

http://www.hiddenrockranch.com/rocky.html - Their new stallion - if you scroll down to the bottom there is a pic where he looks just as huge as some of those "halter horses". I'm hoping to buy his foal out of the same mare as my guy this year.

Some other nicer QH's http://www.runningvranch.com/stallions.html

Just wanted to give everyone an idea that not ALL AQHA people, breeders or disciplines are bad. A lot of these ranch horses easily cross over into the "fancy" events if given the chance and are pretty competitive (as long as there is not a fad involved)

[eqsiu]

Would be interested in the HUS issue- I know I've seen at least one stallion that just looked strange, but appeared to be very popular because he was over 17 hands (http://www.skysblueboy.com/bsa.htm).

Talk about getting the worst of both TBs and QHs...

[spacely]

Would be interested in the HUS issue- I know I've seen at least one stallion that just looked strange, but appeared to be very popular because he was over 17 hands (http://www.skysblueboy.com/bsa.htm).

Disgusting. He belongs on FHOTD. :dead:

[City Ponies]

Talk about getting the worst of both TBs and QHs...

https://quarterhorsestallions.com/these_irons_are_hot.htm

[eqsiu]

Just wanted to give everyone an idea that not ALL AQHA people, breeders or disciplines are bad. A lot of these ranch horses easily cross over into the "fancy" events if given the chance and are pretty competitive (as long as there is not a fad involved)
I think QHs are great little horses. My friends and I all started out on a QH. We event them, pony club, dabble in dressage (often with comical results) etc. They are much better than the little shithead green ponies that some people buy for their beginner children. It's just unfortunate that the breed has developed into so many specialized branches. Type wise they should be good working ranch horses that can dabble in other stuff. I am always amused when people are insulted that I point out the 3/4 TB in their 18 hand QH. :yes:

[eqsiu]

http://www.picturebookfarms.com/blackskyaffair.html

Yes, I know. He moves like crap, has sharkfin withers, spindly legs, and a huge ass. He looks more like a hyena than a horse.

[notforyouorme]

I started showing Quarter Horses before going to hunter/jumper-land and I think that the Performance Halter class is the stupidest thing I've ever seen. The specs for the original halter class are supposed to pick the "ideal" Quarter Horse, but it's gotten out of hand, so instead of revamping the classes and cracking down on the judging (for the better of the breed), the AQHA makes a new class. A new class that is impossible to judge because, ostensibly, they are looking for the exact same thing that the original halter classes are supposed to reward!

They've created a whole new kind of animal that is just judged against itself, not against any breed ideal I've ever seen! Not only that, but it pits many different types of horses against each other, and the class will, ultimately, either end up just like the other halter classes (look at the 2007 world champions in those classes) or they will reward horses that have a "name" in other divisions/classes. By trying to avoid pissing off the halter people, the AQHA has dealt a pretty tough blow to the overall longevity of the breed!

I'm very glad that others, too, think that the "new" hunter under saddle horses are pretty scary.

It's just sad, in my opinion.

[EquineLVR]

DLSD, here we come!

Or bulldog on steroids (http://www.bertonqh.com/index_bqh.htm). Four of their six stallions are HYPP N/H. One of the N/N boys is for sale.

HOLY MOTHER MARY OF GOD... I have NEVER seen a horse look like that - are those horses? Those stallions look like they are part bull or something.. what an awful life. :(

[caffeinated]

I've read that these horses have a kind of double muscling genetically....I once saw an explanation of it existing in certain cattle breeds too.


heh... someone from litterbox made a picture, that cut off the butt of one of those bulls, then cut off the butt from a big old halter quarter horse, and put them side by side. It was really hard to tell which was which, LOL

[camohn]

Okay I know that I will probably offend someone (and I don't mean to) but I recently visited a QH Halter Horse barn and I am still mentally damaged from the experience.

WTF is that all about....someone explain this to me!

Well there is what the halter horse used to be and what it has evolved into (sigh). What it used to be was much like the in hand classes for and discipline today....dressage, hunters etc. It was something to do with young horses destined to be riding horses until they were of riding age. Then along came Impressive. He was massive. He was of course not know to carry the whole HYPP thing at the time. And he won a lot. So everyone (APHA/AQHA) went out and wanted to jump on the bandwagon and breed something that looks like that because it won. SO....now the vast majority are massive horses with bubble butts, frequently straight hocks and teenie tiny feet to not hold all that up. A few of them do in fact go on to make a decent riding horse, but not most of them. They are no longer designed for it. It is no longer a functional riding horse. It is Mr. Universe of horsesdom. (Has anyone ever watched musclebound human guys walk?? Not too athletic looking once they have to move. Same thing. About a year ago or so in the APHA magazine I saw an ad for a halter stallion and his logo was "breed to the halter stallion that you can RIDE!". I think it's kind of sad that it is such a big deal that it is a unique advertising point...that you can't assume the beast is actually rideable! Horses in the stock horse breeds that are working horses (the reining/cutting/barrel racing horses) look nothing like their buddies in the halter ring. The are smallish, athletic and quick.
You should have seen how funny we looked when I was showing my pinto TB colt in APHA halter classes.......a halter Paint he ain't! I just took himm because it was an inexpensive way to get him show miles before Devon and it worked out great for that. How we did depended on the judge. The show that had a hunter judge that day we won first place. The day it was a dyed in the wool stock horse judge we were last!

[camohn]

Wow. Those websites are freaky, those horses look like bizarre alien horses - how does anyone even think that looks good? I don't get it at all... Would someone please tell me what exactly a halter horse is and what a WP horse is? I mean is a halter horse a halter horse like and that's it - they wear a halter? They just stand in a stall all day, look like their on steroids, never see the light of day, don't get ridden but do go to shows and get bred? I feel so bad for those horses and those little babies they are producing... this has to stop. This is horrible type of abuse.

In short, yes to the halter horse, for many of them. WP is another sport that "DE-volved". It used to be judged on the horse having an easy going gait that was easy to ride. Something suitable to spending long hours comfortably in the saddle on the plains. A relaxed horse goes with it's head set low (ish). That has a purpose. It DEvolved into the winner dragging it's nose in the dirt and moving sooo slowly it drags it's toes in the dirt and shuffles. The AQHA/APHA have done better of late in discouraging this trait that got termed peanut rolling. (The poor horse could roll a peanut along in front of it with it's shuffling toes). It didn't used to matter how big the stride of a horse was....all that mattered was that it was easy and comfortable. Some horses moved bigger or faster than others and that was OK. It DEvolved into "the horse that moved the slowest wins". Gosh, can you imagine HOW LONG it would take a cowboy to get across the prarie at that rate? And his horse would have no toes left when he got there!
So....another intially good thing gone horribly off track.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Those WP horses look so incredibly painful, and totally miserable. If I saw one of my horses looking like that, I would know it was time to do the right thing for it. <flame suit on>

How can anyone WANT their horse to move like it is a SEVERELY crippled animal. That is not pretty. Just sad.

[katarine]

Red Hot Impulse is a WP horse, a very nice mover with a nice owner who really tries hard to place her babies in 'good' show homes....not hock & mind wreckers. His colts are slow to mature but tend to stay sound and honest as a result- you can't push them so they are lasting longer c/o not fitting to baby-race to the show ring approach.
http://redhotimpulse.com/

there are good owners who send horses off to 'good' trainers only to have them wrecked. Haven't you all met some 8 YO 17H warmblood/other fancy breed that's had his legs jumped off? Abuse is NOT unique to QHs. Careful with those stones.

The Congress HALTER winner I dealt with took third his 2nd year their with his ear mangled from a buddy gnawing on it over the fence. PLENTY of halter horses do get good turnout.

Don't paint the entire industry with the same brush. It's narrow minded, wrong headed, and unfair. I could turn around and write off SH breeders as arrogant witches who hate QHs based on this thread. That wouldn't be right, now would it ;) ?

[Fairview Horse Center]

Don't paint the entire industry with the same brush. It's narrow minded, wrong headed, and unfair. I could turn around and write off SH breeders as arrogant witches who hate QHs based on this thread. That wouldn't be right, now would it ;) ?

The video you posted of Red Hot Impulse does show that he is a lovely horse - FREE. BUT the under saddle part, just like in the other WP video clips looks VERY, SEVERELY painful. I can't understand why anyone would WANT to train their horse to look like he was severely in pain and arthritic.

[Edgewood]

The video you posted of Red Hot Impulse does show that he is a lovely horse - FREE. BUT the under saddle part, just like in the other WP video clips looks VERY, SEVERELY painful. I can't understand why anyone would WANT to train their horse to look like he was severely in pain and arthritic.

My husband, who knows really nothing about horses (especially their gaits) came in while I was watching the undersaddle portion of the above mentioned video. His comment was "is that horse lame?". I said, "no, he is going to win the class". He was amazed because he thought he did look lame (as did I). I agree that free he looks much better than under saddle...

[shawneeAcres]

I don't condone a lot of this stuff, and have not read all posts BUT there are MANY MANY big name dressage trainers in europe who's horses never ever get turned out at all. And there are other breeds as well who do no turnout, or very limited turnout. Now I hate the halter horse stuff, and I dislike much of the QH western pleasure BUT I also know that not all QH trainers use "barbaric" methods, and that there ARE some gorgeous WP horses that move very nice a freely and yet still in a slower way and I think those are nice horses and probably well trained as well. As far as turnout goes I cannot believe the people who live "up north" and their hroses never get turned out in the winter. (not saying all but MANY MANY barns won't turnout in the wintertime) they go out maybe for a 1/2 hour in the indoor. My horse go out no matter WHAT the weather, and are mentally and physically the better for it.

[DoubleClick]

Check out Sonny's Red Lace at the bottom of Shane's Bake's page. Poor thing doesn't even look able to stand on her own.

http://www.bertonqh.com/index_bqh.htm

[2Horse]

Check out Sonny's Red Lace at the bottom of Shane's Bake's page. Poor thing doesn't even look able to stand on her own.

http://www.bertonqh.com/index_bqh.htm

She looks like she has bed sores on her. Poor girl:cry:

[monstrpony]

Has anyone read the book "Tug of War"? It's a recent addition to the dressage literature by a European vet who contends that the recent hyperflexion practice in dressage training is harmful to the horse, and explains in biomechanical detail why he believes that to be the case. Apparently, he changed his opinion at some recent point from pro-rollkur to anti-rollkur, and some would criticize him for that. Whatever. It's a very interesting read.

What's relevant to THIS discussion is that his rationalization for why hyperflexion is harmful does a beautiful job of explaining how the WP horses' gaits become fractured, and why these horses end up moving as they do and looking so disfunctional.

What's interesting about that is that the book is written about a practice that is currently at the forefront of competitive dressage.

Glass houses, folks; be careful. The QH halter and WP businesses have made a major industry of bad horsemanship, but by no means do they have the market completely cornered. One could argue that they're losing territory in that endeavour at an alarming rate.

[mairzeadoats]

My personal take is I suspect that certain breed associations -- and not just AQHA, although they're on my suspect list -- deliberately push a certain type to support the slaughter industry. The horses are unrideable, unsound at a young and and have no real other use as a result. But a lot of meat on those bones. We've heard from quarter horse breeders right on COTH that slaughter was a significant part of their business plan. Guaranteed market for their otherwise unsaleable products and used up broodies.

But that's just my take.

[City Ponies]

Those WP horses look so incredibly painful, and totally miserable. If I saw one of my horses looking like that, I would know it was time to do the right thing for it. <flame suit on>

How can anyone WANT their horse to move like it is a SEVERELY crippled animal. That is not pretty. Just sad.

In defense, when I first broke my POA mare (though I think she's a full App) I was all excited about fancy moving 14.1 pony mare that could jump knees-to-eyeballs 3'6" on the lunge. She had a comfy trot, awesome fluid canter, popped over fences like it was nothing. She had a natural balanced headset. Then I let her do her own thing one day just messing around (a few friends were goofing off on our horses) and she just did this little itty bitty COMFY as HELL western pleasure jog. She's doesn't do the 2' stride, but her natural gait is to jog. I never realized til then that I had to really push to extend her stride. And out in the field she'll jog around, never ever does a full trot. I've had her since she was 16 months so I guess it was just something she inherited. As she's gotten older (and baby weight) she's become a monster of a little horse. Bulldog type to a T. She must have been bred for either cow events or halter. She has a massive neck, elephant sized butt, and shoulders off a rhino. She had an emergency trip to the NCSU in November...... 14.1.... 1047 lbs.. kid you not. She does not get grain, and only eats what little grass there is in the field now and about 6 lbs of hay a day.

My 3 yr old also has moments of natural bred jog in him when lunging and he collects like a good boy, but he has no lope and too nice of a canter for me to want to do WP with him.

BTW - does anyone know of any diet regiments for an air fern horse?? :D

[eqsiu]

What's interesting about that is that the book is written about a practice that is currently at the forefront of competitive dressage.



I don't think you'll find anyone arguing that point. However, they don't breed that. With the halter industry they breed atrocious conformation because that is ideal for them. Rollkur is similar to the WP gaits, the practices of shady saddle seat (TWH especially), and hunter/jumper (tack rails anyone?) "training." It's the difference between abusive training and abusive breeding (if that makes sense).

[RheinlandPfalzSaar]

That is exactly what a halter horse is.

WP is a western pleasure horse. They are supposed to be smooth and easy with collected gaits. Often times they end up looking exceptionally lame and screwed up. The abuse trends there are lunging for hours, blood letting (I don't know if anyone does this anymore, but it was once a popular alternative to sedation), sedation, etc. All to make them move with 1' strides. They used to be nose to the floor peanut rollers, but now they are looking for a level topline. I don't know if that's how they actually judge it...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2RiHEOoEUY

I just showed this to my non horsey husband and his response was - they look like they are lame (he knows NOTHING about horses). I showed him a pic of a halter horse and he said 'what's happening there'? I think that pretty much sums it up.

[RheinlandPfalzSaar]

Positively vomitous. :dead: :dead:

Let's also not forget the navicular disease that runs rampant throughout these guys. The owners & trainers think nothing of it either. :mad:

Ummm.... all the pain might give the horse that nice short stride that seems to be sought after, as in the WP video link.

[eqsiu]

I don't condone a lot of this stuff, and have not read all posts BUT there are MANY MANY big name dressage trainers in europe who's horses never ever get turned out at all.

Most top show hunters don't get turnout either. Any discipline with high dollar horses is going to have that, unfortunately.

But if no one ever talks about this stuff, nothing will ever change. Each of us has the responsibility to treat our horses well and make their lives as happy and healthy as possible. Many people don't know better though. One of my favorite quotes, "He who is not aware of his ignorance will only be misled by his knowledge."

[Fairview Horse Center]

Glass houses, folks; be careful.

Nope, not in that glass house. I also VERY much disagree with the overflexion.

[Etcher1]

I hear the WP horses also have their heads tied to the ceiling. :no: :cry:

Certain trainers/people do the same thing to a lot of the hunter ponies. Hunter ponies that may prefer to be short strided, heads in the air, maybe a little hot.

[Etcher1]

click on Sir Cool Skip


HOLY CRAP

He is repulsive. I can't stand looking at his stud ads, ever since the first time I saw his ad.

[GreyDun]

Has anyone read the book "Tug of War"? It's a recent addition to the dressage literature by a European vet who contends that the recent hyperflexion practice in dressage training is harmful to the horse, and explains in biomechanical detail why he believes that to be the case.


We actually just got this book in at the USEA office today from the publisher to see if we wanted to carry it. I agree, a very interesting and enlightening read... I enjoyed it quite a bit.

To keep on topic - as an event rider watching the Western Pleasure horses in the videos... it made my eyes bleed. Ack! But to each his own, I suppose... I have to say that I do love the good ol' fashioned foundation QH's (working horses) and yes, there are some pretty nice looking HUS guys out there as well. And actually, some of the best foxhunters I've seen are Appendix. Can't beat that QH temperament!

[Foxtrot's]

Oh dear - do these trainers/owners/judges have no love for the horses? I go to a QH show and my eye sees lots of nice horses in the warm-up rings standing around with heads held naturally, not so high, but natural. They are bum high and they don't move like a WB, but they are nice horses. THEN they start warming up - and by the time they go in the ring they have been punished, jabbed and forced into their winning and painful gates with their heads down to their knees.

I adore the QH breed and have had a few cross-breds. They do have
some bred-in traits, like a four-beat canter on some, but their willingness, honesty and "on" / "off" buttons, easy keeping qualities make them wonderful horses.

It is bloody sad.

[PineTreeFarm]

There is an interesting thread on Off Course http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=131115

It manages to discuss abuses in many breeds and disciplines
Here's the list of 'abuses' in no particular order:

Riding young horses in a frame
Racing 2 yr olds
IJF - Jumping 4yr olds at 3'
Jumpers in general
QH - Halter and WP
Reining
Barrel racing
TWH
Breeding in General - Better to let nature controls who breeds, that kind of thing. Yes, they are talking about you.

I'm sure they'll get around to Rollkur, the FEI Dressage Young Horse classes and the Eventing Young Horse classes soon enough. Maybe I'll help them by adding the 100 day stallion test -3 yr olds to the list.

Just my opinion but it all looks different from the outside looking in. Don't be so quick to pick on one group unless you are sure what you are doing is squeaky clean.

[Sassenach]

When to a QH show with a friend of ours from Ireland whose eyes were bugging out of his head at everything.

What he couldn't understand is how all these different 'types' of horses were the same breed. :sigh:

We have QH's - some are halter and foundation bred and I love them to pieces but it still makes me sad.

[camohn]

Well here is my take: this thread started about halter stock horses. And I do think that it IS a massive disservice to horse breeding to intnetionally breed a horse that is physically too dysfunctional to ride. It went off on a tangent with WP. But the issues surrounding WP are a training issue. You have a basically good horse with messed up training....and that is indeed no different than any other disipline. There are a few halter stallions that ride. There are far more that can't. The whole point of breeding for most disciplines is to try an breed a horse that will stay sound for sport X be it English or Western. I still can't wrap my mind around intentionally breeding a horse that is generally conformationally unsuited to being ridden or staying sound. On a couple of posts I hear that folks have their foundation horses. To me Foundation line means "of the old an original bloodlines" (in other words.....pre Impressive when stock horses were still expected to work liveSTOCK and thus the name....). Nothing wrong with that...that was back when horses were expected to be athletes. The Halter Horse that has not and will never have any job other than to stand around and look like Mr. Universe in a halter is a recent and unfortunate occurance.I have NOTHING against folks that show their horses in halter. Some warmbloods are nothing more than professional triangle trotters and then make babies. The difference is that the WB Triangle Trotter is suppose to embody a horse capable of being an athlete while the current stock horse Halter Hunk is capable of nothing more than that. The only way that is going to change is if Halter Hunky no longer wins and judges start pinning a horse that can get out of his own way.

[eqsiu]

Some warmbloods are nothing more than professional triangle trotters and then make babies.

I wish performance testing (or better yet, performance) was required for WBs. Nice gaits do not make a performance horse.

Though I could care less if a horse did well in his/her performance test as long as he/she performed at shows and the offspring can perform. Isn't that the point of breeding? To create horses that perform?

[Hillside H Ranch]

I wish performance testing (or better yet, performance) was required for WBs. Nice gaits do not make a performance horse.

Though I could care less if a horse did well in his/her performance test as long as he/she performed at shows and the offspring can perform. Isn't that the point of breeding? To create horses that perform?


I agree 110% with this. But people within their discipline will argue that is what their horse is doing. WP people feel that their horse is performing; it is excelling in the discipline it was bred for and if it is winning it must be a success, right? Reiners, jumpers, halter, "successful performer" is by definition winning in a selected discipline.
I think this (from a previous poster) summed it up :

Quote "It manages to discuss abuses in many breeds and disciplines
Here's the list of 'abuses' in no particular order:

Riding young horses in a frame
Racing 2 yr olds
IJF - Jumping 4yr olds at 3'
Jumpers in general
QH - Halter and WP
Reining
Barrel racing
TWH
Breeding in General - Better to let nature controls who breeds, that kind of thing. Yes, they are talking about you.

[TKR]

I agree -- the AQHA halter horses are a conformational disaster and the wp "schooling" I've seen at their shows involved cantering on and on and on and on ..... I couldn't believe it. It's cruel. However, until these folks police their own and until they write rules for the judges that makes sense and severely penalize judges that pin poor conformation, broken gaits, etc., it won't change. Unfortunately, animals for many are just an opportunity to gain attention and "stature" and inflate their ego/bang their chest. They are the "vehicle to success" - no more, no less and very dispensible whenever they lose their glamour. The halter horses look like some of the horses in Europe that are bred for meat. It's not only unfortunate, it's an insult to the species and a disgusting display of human greed. However, until the organizations change what wins, it will continue. That holds true in every sport that involves a defenseless animal. It's pretty easy to assess one's character by how their animals are treated. Very, very sad.
PennyG

[horselifer88]

I don't think you'll find anyone arguing that point. However, they don't breed that. With the halter industry they breed atrocious conformation because that is ideal for them. Rollkur is similar to the WP gaits, the practices of shady saddle seat (TWH especially), and hunter/jumper (tack rails anyone?) "training." It's the difference between abusive training and abusive breeding (if that makes sense).

Finally someone who says something that makes sense!
ABUSIVE TRAINING vs ABUSIVE BREEDING. What other breed/discipline breeds specifically for lameness, not being able to be ridden, and terrible conformation. Tell me? ----This coming from someone whose family owns several QH's and has bred several as well.

[didgery]

For only $1500 you too could end up with a foal whose chances of being an HYPP carrier are 100%! http://www.encorefarm.net/ These guys stand a stallion that is not just N/H (bad enough) but H/H (truly disturbing) - I didn't realize there were still such horses out there breeding.

Edited to add: Upon viewing their broodmare page, I've learned that Encore Farm does not have a SINGLE foal coming (as far as their website reflects) in 2008 that does not have a N/H or H/H parent. Not ONE healthy foal on the way.

[Rhyadawn]

So after taking an hour to read through all the posts.... disturbing!!! I just don't understand why people breed when they KNOW that they are adding negative qualities to their foals (eg HYPP). How is this responsible breeding!?!

[horselifer88]

Wow. Encore farm...and other farms like those should be illegal. That is NOT right on SO many different levels...I am outraged! CANT ... RESIST...... MUST .... SEND EMAIL .... TO .... BREEDERS.... :yes::no::yes::no::yes::no:

[didgery]

Does A. stand for A**hat?

http://www.halterhorsecentral.com/Professional_Letter.htm

[camohn]

I wish performance testing (or better yet, performance) was required for WBs. Nice gaits do not make a performance horse.

Though I could care less if a horse did well in his/her performance test as long as he/she performed at shows and the offspring can perform. Isn't that the point of breeding? To create horses that perform?

Actually I don't for a number of reasons. There are the broodmares that are very well bred and had a pasture accident or something similar preventing them from doing so. There are breeders that keep an occasional best filly from a line for just that purpose of breeding. That is all fine with me if family members are out there performing. I do hate to see breeding programs where no one in recent history is out there being ridden. I think that is where the "star" program in some breeds is a real plus. Your mare gets in the main book for having the proper pedigree/moving sufficiently & you get bonus points for performance, superior offsping etc. And really the APHA has that too. You get your papers for having registered parents and for getting a certain number of points in a type of class you get a ROM (register of merit) award. I don't thinl there is anything wrong with the basic infrastructure. What is wrong is what is being rewarded by judges FROM the parent breed associations (AQHA/APHA) in perpetuating a halter ideal that is incapable of going on to actually perform in the other under saddle disiplines within the same breed. Mr. Hunky is not capable of running a barrel pattern/race/chase cows (he can't run), bending any poles (he can't bend PERIOD!), or haul that massive junk in the trunk over a fence. So the question is WHY this has become a "breed standard" when it is so dysfunctional.

[europa]

Although I like that one stallion he is trantering......that is ridiculous!! I started with QHs and I liked a nice lope.....WTF is that?????

CMON people let the horse jog and lope.

BTW THEY WANT TO BREED THE HYPP GENE IN THEY ARE BULKIER

I can guarantee you that I would never EVER knowing breed a genetically flawed horse.

The Germans don't let their showhorses out because they don't have the pastures. Land is at a premium and at least they get exercise. Mine went on the walker and was ridden along with trips to the solarium. Plus, I did ride out.

I hate rollkur/poling/excessive lunging and jumping

Mine get more out then in time.

[camohn]

For only $1500 you too could end up with a foal whose chances of being an HYPP carrier are 100%! http://www.encorefarm.net/ These guys stand a stallion that is not just N/H (bad enough) but H/H (truly disturbing) - I didn't realize there were still such horses out there breeding.

Edited to add: Upon viewing their broodmare page, I've learned that Encore Farm does not have a SINGLE foal coming (as far as their website reflects) in 2008 that does not have a N/H or H/H parent. Not ONE healthy foal on the way.

That disturbs me too though that is a whole 'nuther topic. I also don't understand why the breeding of equine epilepsy of sorts is not phased out entirely. There is another whole long thread on this topic from a few months back. However, it is not entirely a separate issue from the Halter Hunk topic because the trend started with Impressive, who is the root if the HYPP thing. There is some thought that part of why Impressive looked like he did is because of the HYPP. And since that belief persists among certain halter breeders it is WHY they continue to breed positive horses. To get The Look. The health of the horse or the breed is of no importance (roll eyeballs). Now it is certainly not all the halter breeders, and the ones I did know of doing this had an ideal of an N/H so as not to have a symptomatic horse....but sheesh. They shouldn't be breeding for it at all! The APHA/AQHA's reason for not banning it years ago is financial. They said it would ruin the breeders that had positive horses if one day they ruled they couldn't breed the horses they spent pots of time and money accumulating over the years. I think that is admirable and good. IF this was right after the test for HYPP was discovered. But that isn't it. The test has been around for ages. People have not been responsible to try and use that test to breed that horrid disease out on their own. They are still breeding for it on purpose in the hopes of getting a dysfunctional looking horse. What they should have done was back when the test was discovered was say "10 years from now HYPP horses can no longer be registered". It would have eventually phased out the disease without ruining the breeders financially.

[shawneeAcres]

I wish performance testing (or better yet, performance) was required for WBs. Nice gaits do not make a performance horse.

Though I could care less if a horse did well in his/her performance test as long as he/she performed at shows and the offspring can perform. Isn't that the point of breeding? To create horses that perform?

I too believe this becuase I feel that it is likely the same thing is happening to warmbloods as has to QH's. That a lot of WB's are being bred that look "good" but have disposition and even worse, lameness problems, there is an extraordinarily high incidence of OCD's in WB's, just as their is a high incidence of navicular in the QH breed. If horses were required to perform and not breed if they go unsound due to this, it might reverse it. I do know SOME breeders x-ray for it and I think some of the registrys are starting to require it on stallions, but that doesn't mean the mare is not OCD, and pass it on to offspring. Now I am not totally likening the WB breeders to the halter horse breeders, but feel that "inspections" on the line are not sufficient to insure that those individuals COULD perform and that a similar situation of horses that look good on a lead line could result

[USCavalry]

Check out Sonny's Red Lace at the bottom of Shane's Bake's page. Poor thing doesn't even look able to stand on her own.

http://www.bertonqh.com/index_bqh.htm

Don't tell me they are breeding N/H horses :eek:! That's just asking for it!

[camohn]

Don't tell me they are breeding N/H horses :eek:! That's just asking for it!

3 of their 6 stallions are N/H and the one for sale is the N/N one (roll eyeballs)

[monstrpony]

Nope, not in that glass house. I also VERY much disagree with the overflexion.

Sure, so do I. But that doesn't mean there aren't people in the world of dressage who DO advocate hyperflexion.

Just as there are QH people who abhore halter breeding and WP training.

Even if you don't live in one, doesn't mean there aren't glass houses on the dressage plantation. Nor does it mean that the entire QH industry lives in one.

QH shows are a big business, and there's a tremendous social component to it. You know how much fun a good competitor's party is? Or even the impromptu ones? The QH industry has taken that to the ultimate extreme--the party aspect and the "showmanship" has become such an issue that many of the people involved have lost touch with the horsemanship completely. They forgot--if, indeed, they ever knew in the first place--that the horse should have a purpose beyond being a pretty appointment for their elaborate stall setup. So, what is easier than just doing halter, why bother with all the mess and bother and sweat and dirt of riding? Instead, let's let the breeders focus on producing the ultimate halter ornament. And the industry has just gotten way, way out of hand with it. Unfortunately there's so much money driving it that making a substantive change that necessitates true work and horsemanship is going to be very, very difficult. The only way it might happen is if enough people simply turn their backs on it.

I adore QHs. Now that I'm older and a fat, middle-aged skeerty-cat, they are my breed of choice by a long shot, in spite of their limitations. But the one I have now, I don't even have papers on--not a prayer that I'll ever show him as a QH, and not much of a prayer that I'll ever show him at all. And, though he was born and bred to be a WP horse (and bears the mental scars to prove it) ... he sure as heck doesn't move like one any more!

[camohn]

Sure, so do I. But that doesn't mean there aren't people in the world of dressage who DO advocate hyperflexion.

Just as there are QH people who abhore halter breeding and WP training.

Even if you don't live in one, doesn't mean there aren't glass houses on the dressage plantation. Nor does it mean that the entire QH industry lives in one.

QH shows are a big business, and there's a tremendous social component to it. You know how much fun a good competitor's party is? Or even the impromptu ones? The QH industry has taken that to the ultimate extreme--the party aspect and the "showmanship" has become such an issue that many of the people involved have lost touch with the horsemanship completely. They forgot--if, indeed, they ever knew in the first place--that the horse should have a purpose beyond being a pretty appointment for their elaborate stall setup. So, what is easier than just doing halter, why bother with all the mess and bother and sweat and dirt of riding? Instead, let's let the breeders focus on producing the ultimate halter ornament. And the industry has just gotten way, way out of hand with it. Unfortunately there's so much money driving it that making a substantive change that necessitates true work and horsemanship is going to be very, very difficult. The only way it might happen is if enough people simply turn their backs on it.

I adore QHs. Now that I'm older and a fat, middle-aged skeerty-cat, they are my breed of choice by a long shot, in spite of their limitations. But the one I have now, I don't even have papers on--not a prayer that I'll ever show him as a QH, and not much of a prayer that I'll ever show him at all. And, though he was born and bred to be a WP horse (and bears the mental scars to prove it) ... he sure as heck doesn't move like one any more!

NO ONE is bashing QHs as a breed, QH breeders or people that love QHs. This post is directed at a very specific dysfuntional segment of the stock horse industry.
This part hits that nail right on the head:
"They forgot--if, indeed, they ever knew in the first place--that the horse should have a purpose"

The thing is though that that aspect has been perpetuated by the judging. In any breed there are folks that breed that have no idea what they really should be breeding for. The point of inspections is hopefully to point it out so breeders know where they went wrong and don't keep making the same mistake. The stock horse breeding industry supports and promotes the breeding of ill conformed and dysfuntional animals....so that problem lies at the feet of the APHA and AQHA breed registries themselves. Their judges are condoning, supporting and even promoting it. It won't stop until they stop pinning those animals as the breed ideal. They are not "real QHs" that are the lovely riding animals that are a deserved part of our riding community. There is no reason folks can't just show in halter classes if that is all they want to do and never ride a horse. It's just that the breed ideal should be one CAPABLE of being ridden.

[TKR]

I don't think an HYPP positive foal can be registered with the AQHA anymore -- and I believe that's been true for several years. They are trying to clean that up, but it doesn't solve the rest of the problems.
PennyG

[camohn]

H/H foals can't as of 2007.
Here is the blurb from the AQHA rulebook
" Effective with foals born on or after January 1, 2007, all descendants of the of the stallion Impressive, AQHA registration number 0767246, shall be required to be parentage verified and HYPP tested, subject to the conditions in (c)(2) above. Any foal testing homozygous positive for HYPP (H/H) will not be eligible for registration with AQHA."
So, only horses homozygous for HYPP can't be registered.


This is another blurb right off the AQHA site:
For some time now, you have probably heard, or had first-hand knowledge, of the condition known as hyperkalemic periodic paralysis (HYPP). This condition is characterized by intermittent episodes of muscle tremors (shaking or trembling, weaknesses and/or collapse).

At the 1996 AQHA Convention in Seattle, Washington, the AQHA Board of Directors approved some rules recommended by the AQHA Stud Book and Registration Committee and approved by the Board of Directors. Among the changes was a rule requiring disclosure of HYPP status on the registration certificates of foals born on or after January 1, 1998, which descend from any bloodline determined to carry the HYPP gene.

Beginning with the 1997 AQHA Official Handbook, HYPP is in rule 205 among conditions commonly considered undesirable traits or genetic defects, such as parrot mouth and cryptorchidism. These conditions do not prevent a horse from being used as breeding stock or from participating in AQHA-approved events, subject to rules of the individual event.

Beginning with 1998 foals, the rule requires the following notification to be placed on the registration certificates of foals descending from any bloodline determined to carry the HYPP gene:

"This horse has an ancestor known to carry HYPP, designated under AQHA rules as a genetic defect, AQHA recommends testing to confirm presence or absence of this gene."

Facts about HYPP have been gained through research projects funded in part by AQHA, through the University of California, Davis and the University of Pennsylvania. The first report, from Drs. Sharon Spier and Gary Carlson of U.C. Davis, was delivered to AQHA in the summer 1992, and published in-full in the September 1992 issue of The Quarter Horse Journal. As additional information has been made available, AQHA has promptly published it. I invite you to refer to [the Publications] page for a list of AQHA publications and others which contain information about HYPP.


So...the AQHA basically says that they have had plenty of info on HYPP available since 1992, they thought about some rule changes in 1996 to be effective in 1998 that disclosing the defect became mandatory. At that point there was still no real incentive to not breed for it since all that happened was that your horse was positive for it now got stamped on his papers. (That they more or less think it's OK to breed horses with HYPP, Cryptorchidism and parrot mouth too also boggles the mind but that is a whole other tangent.) As of 2007 you can no longer register a horse that is H/H (which is likely to be symptomatic) but there still is no real incentive to breed it out of the gene pool entirely since having N/H's are fine. So......in 15 years you now can't register a horse that is H/H. I don't really see any plan to eliminate the disease entirely.

As noted earlier, the HYPP thing isn't really a separate issue from the halter issue because Impressve who is the foundation of HYPP is also the beginnings of the modern halter horse look thanks in part TO HYPP. Folks are still breeding HYPP postive horses in some places on purpose hoping to get that appearance.Getting rid of HYPP will not change the judging about the other confo flaws that have now become that halter standard, but it is a step in the right direction for the health of the breed as a whole.

[monstrpony]

Their judges are condoning, supporting and even promoting it. It won't stop until they stop pinning those animals as the breed ideal.

This is quite true, and inspections alone won't solve the problem. QH shows ARE essentially the breed inspections. The top breeders and judges are so much in bed together--there's that money thing, again--that it would be very difficult to stop the cycle.

Same with the WP thing--the judges don't want to ding their buddies who then won't hire them to judge, and the top trainers sure don't want to have to re-learn how to train horses to a different style.

Somehow, the consumers, if ineed that group can ever be identified, have to be educated and pursuaded to change their practices. When the whole thing is driven by money and back-scratching, it's pretty hard to make change happen.

***I just hope the QH industry serves as a warning to any other discipline that sees the almighty dollar becoming the driving force behind its competition industry. It would be a shame for all of those deformed QHs to have suffered in vain.

[Hawkridge]

That is exactly what a halter horse is.

WP is a western pleasure horse. They are supposed to be smooth and easy with collected gaits. Often times they end up looking exceptionally lame and screwed up. The abuse trends there are lunging for hours, blood letting (I don't know if anyone does this anymore, but it was once a popular alternative to sedation), sedation, etc. All to make them move with 1' strides. They used to be nose to the floor peanut rollers, but now they are looking for a level topline. I don't know if that's how they actually judge it...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2RiHEOoEUY


Holy cow, that was one disturbing video....and if you scroll down and read the comments that some viewers have left, they think the horses move nicely :confused::confused: It makes me want to register on youtube and make the "are you all nuts????" comment.....good greif!

[eqsiu]

I don't think an HYPP positive foal can be registered with the AQHA anymore -- and I believe that's been true for several years. They are trying to clean that up, but it doesn't solve the rest of the problems.
PennyG

Ah. They won't register H/H horses, but they sure as heck still register N/H horses. So yes, AQHA registers positive foals. They may not be as severely affected, but they're affected none the less. Until they stop registering ALL positive horses, the disease won't go away.

[camohn]

This is quite true, and inspections alone won't solve the problem. QH shows ARE essentially the breed inspections. The top breeders and judges are so much in bed together--there's that money thing, again--that it would be very difficult to stop the cycle.

Same with the WP thing--the judges don't want to ding their buddies who then won't hire them to judge, and the top trainers sure don't want to have to re-learn how to train horses to a different style.

Somehow, the consumers, if ineed that group can ever be identified, have to be educated and pursuaded to change their practices. When the whole thing is driven by money and back-scratching, it's pretty hard to make change happen.

***I just hope the QH industry serves as a warning to any other discipline that sees the almighty dollar becoming the driving force behind its competition industry. It would be a shame for all of those deformed QHs to have suffered in vain.

Really it is all the same problems in the Paint industry. Half the judges are the same. They are judged to the same standards. Actually the APHA is worse...they have no rules regarding HYPP.

[europa]

Vomiting now....they all looked lame at the walk..........or was that a walk! C'Mon people.

This is soo disturbing for someone who grew up with a loves QHs. The barn that I started at was a top notch QH barn in Atlanta and they all went naturally....lovely to watch. I would sit and watch them all go and drool.

Miss Space Bar and Classy Adams were my favs!!

[europa]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gdU9GgSGkNU&feature=related

What will happen if this horse stumbles?

[Edgewood]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gdU9GgSGkNU&feature=related

What will happen if this horse stumbles?

Or this one....who is only 2 years old.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QzJLgqyT70A&NR=1

[bugsynskeeter]

What will happen if any horse stumbles? Why does it make a difference if its a WP horse or a Rolex eventer?

[Fairview Horse Center]

These WP horses would certainly not be a "pleasure to ride". What it is, is taking the horse out of the horse. Make it a zombie. If they don't like to ride horses, ride a shopping cart. Can you imagine riding a WP horse on a trail, or across a field? I guess an advantage is that you could trail ride all day long, and never leave your 50 acre property, and never go back over the same trail.

[okggo]

Stupid question...do they train them to move that way or are they bred (i.e. conformational issues) to? They look like they are in ultra slow motion. Is that like the western version of the piaffe? The one stallion looked normal at liberty but seemed forced into this wierd gait under saddle.

I just can't imagine any of mine willingly going that sloooowly. Even my young boy at liberty, who is about as lazy as they come in that regard, canters around the field slowly but it still looks like a normal canter, not like I'm dragging the pause button.

[bugsynskeeter]

They are both bred and trained to do that. Go visit the farm that stands Zips Chocolate Chip down in Texas. Those babies are low and slow from the day they are born. Good trainers just put the spit shine on them.

How is it really that different from other disciplines - are dressage horses born doing piaffes or passages? No - they are trained to do it. But those BRED to do it are that much easier to train.

[Fairview Horse Center]

are dressage horses born doing piaffes or passages? No - they are trained to do it.

They ABSOLUTELY do piaffe and passage naturally, ALL horses do, just different quality. That IS the point of dressage, to RIDE the movements they use when free.

[bugsynskeeter]

I don't do dressage, so my apologies. However, that backs up my point even more. If horses are born doing piaffes and passages, doesn't a GOOD trainer just put some spit shine on them for the show pen? How is that any different then WP horses being born slow and low and a GOOD trainer just polishing it for the pen?

ETA - a GOOD TRAINER...all disciplines have their bad trainers. That's not the focus here...

[Equino]

I broke out a colt for a pregnant friend as a favor, he was bred for WP. I broke him English, taught his to go forward, steer, accept the bit, the basics. Later on, his owner asked if I would start him under western saddle, teach him to kneck rein. He was to be her pleasure/trail horse, no showing. I haven't done much western riding, so it was a project. It was much easier for him to shift gears and go slow with me sitting on him, although he didn't really lope, than to go forward, which felt like I was running him off his feet. He had a short, slow-legged stride and his conformation led him to have a low headset, naturally. I showed him for fun at a couple of open shows and got quite a few compliments. He wouldn't have been competitive among the WP horses like Zips Chocolate Chips, but it was a more natural gait and carriage for him.

So, yes, I do believe conformation and breeding play a big part in what is natural for these horses. My WB mare would never make a WP horse, no matter how much training. Those little QH's, as a good friend once told me, would rather you "sit back and cadillac." All it takes is a few bad trainers to paint a negative picture of any discipline. And I'm sure we can all think of abusive means for all disciplines. I think everything we do with horses is an extreme of what is natural for them. Horses can run, but racing isn't "natural" any more than jumping with a cracking topline and tight knees or jogging/loping with low headsets, or piaffing and on and on...Sometimes the line between molding what is a innate quality (having speed, jumping correct) and resorting to measures of making a horse do something that is not natural can get blurred, and what people see most is the abusive tactics (rightfully so).

I've known western trainers who can get their horses to jog/lope with low headsets without bloodying their mouths or tying heads to ceilings. I've also known a trainer who severed his horse's tendon by poling when the horse would brush a 3'6" jump. It's everywhere horses' are involved-abuse and good training.

Personally, I don't get the purpose of the Halter horse (to get back O/T.) However, I did know one couple who had a string of halter horses and their horses did do some riding events, more because they believed it was a good way to exercise them, and keep their minds fresh. They got turned out, but were always alone during show seasons-couldn't risk a single blemish, and were blanketed according to weather-couldn't get bleached out or risk bug bites. And during the off-season, or once qualifed, they did get to be "horses"-went for walks on trails, turned out with others. They were pretty competitive, always in the ribbons at big shows. Not saying I agree with breeding for Halter, but there are obviously halter folks out there who do care about their horses.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Just look at the video of the stallion previously posted. He is a very nice boy, with nice free gaits. WHY would any one WANT to see a horse like that moving like he is crippled, and in severe pain. As a stable manager, if I saw any horse lurching like that in the canter, I would be quickly going, "WHOA, WHOA!", and running to grab a halter. Bring them in, and calling the vet to see if they are foundering, fractured coffin bone, severe abscess, etc. Same thing with the trot. It LOOKS exactly the same as if you were trying to ride a horse with severely bruised feet.

That stallion video does NOT show the same kind of movement free & u/s. TOTALLY different.

[Equino]

I don't like that way of going, I will agree with you there, however, I didn't think the horse looked crippled. What I saw was an over-done, overly controling of a canter stride. Maybe I've seen enough WP in my life that I recognize that 1/2 jog, 1/2 canter gait that is unfortunatlely popular, I don't know.

[Sassenach]

I don't like that way of going, I will agree with you there, however, I didn't think the horse looked crippled. What I saw was an over-done, overly controling of a canter stride. Maybe I've seen enough WP in my life that I recognize that 1/2 jog, 1/2 canter gait that is unfortunatlely popular, I don't know.

I was under the impression that the AQHA was making it a rule for WP to be a more 'free moving' horse when judged rather than the zombie peanut-rollers. It doesn't look like that to me :no:

[europa]

What will happen if any horse stumbles? Why does it make a difference if its a WP horse or a Rolex eventer?

To answer this people die from falling off while hacking horses.......if your horse stumbles and you are thrown forward (and they DO NOT wear helmets that I have seen)

a. The horse could land on you
b. you could be thrown and land on anything (your head for instance)

Granted they aren't going fast but that really doesn't matter....it does not look SAFE to me at all. The horse's natural balance is not to go with his head looking for grass!

[VirginiaBred]

Let's also not forget the navicular disease that runs rampant throughout these guys. The owners & trainers think nothing of it either. :mad:


I could have quoted so many of you, but I selected this because I was recently at a show at the Virginia Horse Center and there were some Halter Classes going on, so I thought I"d take a look....................

Bad decision.

So lame - every single one in the classes I watched.
Perched on their feet.
Straight shoulders.

Horrible.

WHY is the lameness overlooked? It was SO OBVIOUS.

:(

[bugsynskeeter]

What will happen if any horse stumbles? Why does it make a difference if its a WP horse or a Rolex eventer?

To answer this people die from falling off while hacking horses.......if your horse stumbles and you are thrown forward (and they DO NOT wear helmets that I have seen)

a. The horse could land on you
b. you could be thrown and land on anything (your head for instance)

Granted they aren't going fast but that really doesn't matter....it does not look SAFE to me at all. The horse's natural balance is not to go with his head looking for grass!

This could happen no matter WHAT type of horse I'm riding. Helmet or no! The worst fall I've ever had was from a horse who was carrying his head in a "natural" position...which happened to be more like a USEF hunter.

[Equino]

I was under the impression that the AQHA was making it a rule for WP to be a more 'free moving' horse when judged rather than the zombie peanut-rollers. It doesn't look like that to me :no:

There have been many rules changes put in place, but so far, it seems only the hunters have really shown changes. From the bits I've seen online, the western horses aren't quite as below the poll headsets that was so popular, in WP, still too low, and still too slow for the most part. Until every judge adheres to the new rules, not all will change. It will happen eventually, but it's coming about very slowly.

[europa]

Look I am not going to argue with you as I can tell that you are probably a responsible owner but you CANNOT tell me that that is NATURAL.

When you are moving unnaturally and as most QHs are built a bit downhill to begin with you have a recipe for disaster. No wonder they have leg issues. SAD SAD

[Equino]

If that was directed at me-I agree that is not "natural" for a horse to go at those gaits and with such low headsets. I also believe much of what we do with our horses are unnatural, therefore it is our responsibilty as horse owners to improve their quality of life, whether they are aimed to be a race horse, eventer, WP or dressage horse. I don't think we need to do away with WP, because while certain training tactics are deplorable, should be done away with, and the offenders punished, I don't think it applies to every WP horse or trainer out there. Same goes for racing, eventing, jumping, etc....

[europa]

I was writing the same time as you....sorry didn't direct that to you. I was talking to bugsynskeeter. Bugs I didn't mean to accuse you or make you defensive in any way I am just concerned about the future QHs.

You are right....we are here as custodians for the animals and outright abuse needs to stop. The more I see the craziness of the extreme in horse sports the madder I get.
The only way it will stop is if the horseowners demand it.

[eqsiu]

Western pleasure horses do move low and slow naturally, but not as low and slow as what's seen in the ring. The way their neck is set their heads naturally go low. Another horse, a saddlebred let's say, would never in a million years be able to move like that. They just aren't built that way.

I do however wish they would move with a bit of implusion. The trot/jog should have a moment of suspension and be two beats. When you slow it down that much you lose both the suspension and the harmony of the gait. The jog is the western passage, it should look fluid and pleasant. the lope should be an easy canter.

Oh well.

[europa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWM-VCCS09g&NR=1

Now this is how nature intended a horse to move!!

[Equino]

You got me...I opened the link expecting some nice, easy going horse video!

[eqsiu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWM-VCCS09g&NR=1

Now this is how nature intended a horse to move!!

That's a bit pacey for a running walk...

But I agree, gaited horses are pretty fun to ride, but the things you see at shows make me glad I event. I rarely see abuse at events. And the one incident I recall resulted in elimination for excessive use of the whip.

[horselifer88]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWM-VCCS09g&NR=1

Now this is how nature intended a horse to move!!

Wait...are you being sarcastic or serious? I'm very undereducated when it comes to TWHs so I can't pass judgement either way...but coming from someone who doesn't know much about them...that looks FREAKY and very unnatural!

[monstrpony]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWM-VCCS09g&NR=1

Now this is how nature intended a horse to move!!

Uhh, I'd take a WP horse over that, any day!!

[Rhyadawn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWM-VCCS09g&NR=1

Now this is how nature intended a horse to move!!

EEEGADS!!!! I very much hope you didn't mean that seriously. That just looked painful!

[Hillside H Ranch]

I think the WP horses are sad; they look like they have no life in them. However, I think the way that a lot of the Tennessee Walking horses move is horrific. To me, they remind me of the trend in German Shepherds; really low hind ends with abnormal looking movement. A lot of those Walking horses suffer from severe hind-end lameness and back problems. Plus, the "big lick" walkers have all that weight on the front feet to produce that big front end movement; not healthy!

[europa]

PEOPLE......I breed WBs of course I think that is unnatural.

The sad part is when looking at that video I found one of 2 year olds doing that and their whole backends were falling apart when they tried to downward transition. FOR ALL THAT IS HOLY!!!!!!

[europa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuqN9n4RF4Y&feature=related

Watch the one horse in particular loses it in the transition downward. THEY ARE ONLY 2.

[okggo]

I can't speak for those videos, as it just doesn't look natural or decent to me. But, my hubby had a TWH pleasure horse who by no means resembled those. Funny how different they are barefoot and allowed to move "naturally" under saddle. His guy look funny only in that he did not "trot" but I didn't look at him and think ohh that poor horse. He looked like a happy guy moving the way he was made to move.

Just like that WP stallion at liberty. Moved WAY different then under saddle.

[hunter-jumper-rider]

http://www.bertonqh.com/images/sir_cool_skip_running_1_6_06.jpg


IS THAT A BEAR, OR A HORSE?!?!?!:confused::o:confused::o:eek:

WTF???????? It is so disturbing. It really does not even look like a horse anymore. I feel sick looking at this. I want to call these idiots and say what.....I really don't know, but it pisses me off.:mad:

[TaliaCristianna]

I once boarded with a young girl that owned an absolutely ADORABLE weanling QH stud colt. He was a beautiful red dun with a blaze and four perfect whites.

She bought him from a QH breeder that focused on halter. He was big for a weanling, heavily muscled (but nothing like those stallion pics from earlier!)

I'd been told that some halter breeders "power feed" and supplement their babies to get them larger then normal at a young age. I've never been interested enough in the QH halter discipline to research that...

One of the other boarders told me that the barn owner was instructed to feed that baby FOUR FULL CANS of grain a day. FOUR!!!! The barn owner wasn't comfortable with doing that, but what the owner wants, the owner gets...

A few months after she brought him home, the colt had to be rushed to the Iowa State University veterinary hospital for emergency surgery. I don't know all the details, but he had a BLEEDING ULCER, amongst other complications (like kidney failure I believe.) He came very close to dying.

It has been proven that high grain diets contribute to excessive stomach acid.

I haven't a clue if all halter breeders do the "power feeding" thing, but in this case it almost cost a sweet little guy his life.

[camohn]

Stupid question...do they train them to move that way or are they bred (i.e. conformational issues) to? They look like they are in ultra slow motion. Is that like the western version of the piaffe? The one stallion looked normal at liberty but seemed forced into this wierd gait under saddle.

I just can't imagine any of mine willingly going that sloooowly. Even my young boy at liberty, who is about as lazy as they come in that regard, canters around the field slowly but it still looks like a normal canter, not like I'm dragging the pause button.

Some were bred that way and were winning. So, the other folks took that to mean the slowest horse wins and the ones that did not go that way naturally were made to do it un naturally which is where things went so wrong.

[TKR]

I don't have a problem with QH or WP people breeding for a horse to go around on the forehand and be "slow legged" as they love to advertise, IF they don't produce something that is abnormal or it's species or predisposed to unsoundness because of their practices. I also have a HUGE problem with cruel training practices or teaching a horse to move so that it's natural gait or carriage is destroyed. I don't understand the attraction of the "peanut rollers" headsets or how they get it. I thought their rules were now that the neck and head should be on the same plane as their shoulders, or something like that. Of course, they have also had alot of folks injecting and damaging their tails so they "pack" them around and can't even swish off a fly as a result, also illegal, but still done. The TWH and SB's are beautiful, elegant and kind/wonderful horses when naturally shod -- I absolutely despise the caricature that the long toes and heavy shoes/chains bring about as well as the tail damage and all the chemicals they use to "enhance" the movement until the poor things are permanently in pain and lame. As a GSD owner for most of my life, I only want the European/German working lines with the level hips and OFA testing along with the great temperment and intelligence as my current companion displays. However, all the disciplines have a closet full of skeletons -- now the powers that be will be testing the jumpers for being sensitized in their legs so they won't hit a jump! For God's sake -- !! Wasn't there some dressage trainer who used some electrical device to get upper level movement? Of course, the racetrack has their share of problems and the hunters have been known to use "calmatives" to achieve a quiet round. Where would many dressage trainers be without sidereins, drawreins, chambons, crank nosebands? Then the politics get involved, and so on and on. It's really pretty disgusting! I'm not sure why anyone who "wins" by those means can hold their head up -- like the idiot "hunters" now shooting wolves from airplanes -- now THAT'S a "real sport"!
PennyG

[Equino]

^^^Agreed.

The barn I work at has one QH that was shown quite extensively on the AQHA circuit. He was bred to be a WP horse (Zips Chocolate Zip line) but got too tall so he was sold as a Youth horse geered towards HUS. He's 16.2 and quite a pretty mover, showed all over in u/s and pleasure driving, but did not start his career until age 4. While he has always preferred to lope, he did have a nice, long trot. Since he was diagnosed with navicular, he can not trot, even in t/o he jogs and lopes around, not the peanut pusher type of lope, but certainly not a canter. I have ridden him, and I could not get him into a true canter. And this is a horse that really didn't go through the training many QHs do. These days, he's pretty much a pasture ornament that does the occassional trail ride.

I've only ridden one TWH. She was owned by a friend who bought her specifically to pleasure ride on since she (owner) has a bad back. She was the most comfortable horse, and while she was not trained to do all those gaits, I don't even know what they are called! she did have some unusal movements, and high stepping naturally. The owner bought her as an unbroke yearling, so obviously it is natural for the horse, but she doesn't have that "German Shephard" (good description, Hillside H Ranch!) hindend at all.

[camohn]

I don't have a problem with QH or WP people breeding for a horse to go around on the forehand and be "slow legged" as they love to advertise, IF they don't produce something that is abnormal or it's species or predisposed to unsoundness because of their practices. I also have a HUGE problem with cruel training practices or teaching a horse to move so that it's natural gait or carriage is destroyed. I don't understand the attraction of the "peanut rollers" headsets or how they get it. I thought their rules were now that the neck and head should be on the same plane as their shoulders, or something like that. Of course, they have also had alot of folks injecting and damaging their tails so they "pack" them around and can't even swish off a fly as a result, also illegal, but still done. The TWH and SB's are beautiful, elegant and kind/wonderful horses when naturally shod -- I absolutely despise the caricature that the long toes and heavy shoes/chains bring about as well as the tail damage and all the chemicals they use to "enhance" the movement until the poor things are permanently in pain and lame. As a GSD owner for most of my life, I only want the European/German working lines with the level hips and OFA testing along with the great temperment and intelligence as my current companion displays. However, all the disciplines have a closet full of skeletons -- now the powers that be will be testing the jumpers for being sensitized in their legs so they won't hit a jump! For God's sake -- !! Wasn't there some dressage trainer who used some electrical device to get upper level movement? Of course, the racetrack has their share of problems and the hunters have been known to use "calmatives" to achieve a quiet round. Where would many dressage trainers be without sidereins, drawreins, chambons, crank nosebands? Then the politics get involved, and so on and on. It's really pretty disgusting! I'm not sure why anyone who "wins" by those means can hold their head up -- like the idiot "hunters" now shooting wolves from airplanes -- now THAT'S a "real sport"!
PennyG

As you say, there are bad training practices in every discipline. The orginal post was about bad breeding conformation. It morphed into the training problems with WP (where the original "low and slow" as in relaxed became "if low and slow is good them lower and slower is even better...." to the point the horse looks crippled and lost it natural gaits.) The WP issue can really be quite easily solved if the judges get around to rewarding a more natural gait pattern. There is nothing inherently wrong with the horses. Halter is a whole nuther ball of wax with it's confo breeding issues.

[hackinaround]

As a teen I cleaned stalls for a Halter Paint horse breeder/trainer. A common practice was to inject or implant a bovine hormone implant under the skin of the crest on inside the ear where nobody would see it. It was about 3/4 inch long slim pellet shaped. Im not sure if it was testosterone or something else. When I inquired the wife said it was used to beef market cattle up before sales.

I was just a kid then and just mucked my stalls and :eek: when I saw and heard things.

[Hillside H Ranch]

As a teen I cleaned stalls for a Halter Paint horse breeder/trainer. A common practice was to inject or implant a bovine hormone implant under the skin of the crest on inside the ear where nobody would see it. It was about 3/4 inch long slim pellet shaped. Im not sure if it was testosterone or something else. When I inquired the wife said it was used to beef market cattle up before sales.

I was just a kid then and just mucked my stalls and :eek: when I saw and heard things.


That would be something like Ralgro; a hormonal implant used in beef cattle to make them grow more/faster, particularly muscle.

[LockeMeadows]

Stupid question...do they train them to move that way or are they bred (i.e. conformational issues) to?

I owned a Paint stallion from the time he was a yearling. I *never* trained him to do WP, but he would naturally drop his head (level to his withers) and jog and lope. He needed to be pushed forward to do a real trot and canter. However, he was a lovely hunter-type mover when rode well. His babies have done very well on the line at USEF shows and are very correct. At one time, he was listed Top 25 Leading Sires with the USEF!! Several of his get are old enough to begin showing over fences and have already won at some "A" shows.

The horses bred for WP tend to have a lower-set neck, a laid-back shoulder, and low hocks. All these things can contribute to being a good hunter. How you train them is up to the trainer. A good horse is a good horse.

[europa]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7_omZ65E2hs&feature=related

Someone explain this to me? Is there a sound horse in this? HELLOOOOOO

GOOD GRIEF

[shawneeAcres]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7_omZ65E2hs&feature=related

Someone explain this to me? Is there a sound horse in this? HELLOOOOOO

GOOD GRIEF


AS this was a quite long video I did not watch the entire thing but only saw one horse that soundness was questionable. The hroses were going on the forehand and total unengaged, but that is not the same as lame, sorry

[sublimequine]

While I completely agree how horrendous the extreme halter horses look, I think it does need to be said that there are some VERY stocky, VERY built QHs that are proportional, have a real job, are sound, etc. A lot of Foundation QH stallions are big hulking boys, but also are very talented in cutting, roping, ranch work, etc. Their bulk is actually put to use, not just for show. For instance:

http://www.lynnsquarterhorses.com/LQH-images/snipper-music-lqh4-576x525.jpg

http://www.lynnsquarterhorses.com/LQH-images/snipper-music-smx-356x525.jpg

That is one BIG STOCKY horse. BUT. He is proportional, put together nicely, and has earned points in team penning. He's also 97% foundation. Really a lovely horse, even WITH the bulk and heavy muscling.

Also, as an aside, some horses do move naturally predisposed to WP. While I think the current WP show world is really not too great, some horses pop out of their moms with super-flat gates and their noses between their knees as they go. I mean heck, my QH mare isn't really bred anything fancy, and when she's going around at liberty, she prefers to JOG over trot. And her head is rarely above the point of her withers. Usually even with it or SLIGHTLY below.

[bugsynskeeter]

I also did not watch the whole video. The only horse that might look "off" to those not familiar with the discipline would be the second horse...not engaged behind and diagonal pairs are off. But I agree with ShawneeAcres - on the forehand and unengaged does not = lame. It equals bad training.

I was not offended Europa - but I don't think that the way these horses go make them any more dangerous to ride then any other type of horse. Didn't feel accused, but I love WP dearly and hate seeing it constantly battered. It has taken huge strides forward, but still has a ways to go. Rome wasn't built in a day. AQHA is working hard to change the image of anorexic, bled-out, nose to the floor WP horses of the 90s. Amateurs are not willing to see horses treated like that anymore. I was going to work for a trainer in the Louisville area and went to the barns to talk to him after a show. I saw him tie a horse's head to its side in a curb bit (tight to its side)...and stand there drinking a beer. Looking around, I noticed that not one of his horses was clear of spur marks. That is NOT a good trainer and I decided right then and there that it was not a place I wanted to work. Funnily enough he didn't win in the pen either...Trainers like that need to be punished - and HARSHLY. It is up to those who are in it for the love of the horse to fix it.

I too think that the idea of a "performance" horse halter class is a joke. Fix what's wrong...don't hide your head in the sand. AQHA was based on the foundation that it was the ultimate all around horses that could halter and ride. Today's halter horses are anything but a joy to ride...one trainer I worked for had a few halter mares and he RODE his for muscle development! Imagine that. AQHA is trying to get the point across that fat doesn't equal fit. Fit equals fit. Like pleasure - its going to take time to fix...I hope it happens sooner rather then later! Personally, while I like a good halter horse - horses like Sir Cool Skip make me want to vomit. Oops...I did just throw up in my mouth a bit...

[ohrebecca]

There are sour apples in every discipline, yes, but AQHA halter horses are bred SPECIFICALLY for halter---as in not performance. Most (as in the overwelming majority) halter horses simply CAN'T be ridden. It is completely out of control, through the AQHA themselves are trying to get a handle on it. Just google AQHA world champion halter horse and you will get yourself come real "winners."
for example
http://www.clarkrassi.com/fearles/RASSI-1207%20copy.jpg
http://www.lonemacfarm.com/dbs/stallions/images/1146449334.jpg


I'm no confo expert, but that first horse just looks WRONG.
and the second horse exemplifies the "bulldog" look... just needs an underbite.

i like a well-muscled horse, but the extremes in halter horses (mostly the specifically bred, non-rideable ones) scare me.

[europa]

I must say that the CHRON gives me hope! We all gripe and complain but at the end of the day people here really do care about getting the best information concerning their horses. I am glad to see that some people who love and adore their QHs still exist.

I have always, and still do, think that QHs are the most versatile/sensible and honest horses on the planet. My first, and most precious, horse was a 15.2 roan QH Eclipse....God rest her soul.........and I grew up on her back. I owe her to say something for her breed base.

Darlyn had the pleasure of meeting my old girl. ;)

[europa]

Btw did you notice that was a bridleless class????????????????????????????? WTHKCIT??

[Fairview Horse Center]

Darlyn had the pleasure of meeting my old girl. ;)

Yes, and we won't tell the world what you called that sweet girl. :no: :eek: :winkgrin:

[camohn]

Btw did you notice that was a bridleless class????????????????????????????? WTHKCIT??

Usually being able to go bridleless is the ultimate test of a finished reining horse. It is so well trained you don't even need the reins/all goes on leg/seat aids. Kinda the equal of a GP dressage horse. They don't really need the reins in reining since there is no collected movement to need to drive the horse into the bit and "collect" that forward impulsion....there is no collection to a lope! Lynn Palm used to go bridleless in her demos too.

[Foxtrot's]

Can somebody step in to save this thread and the whole Quarterhorse breed in general by showing some well balanced, well conformed top Quarterhorses doing what they were trained to do, but doing it properly (as in our humble opinions). There is no breed as versatile or as popular and I just love them for their looks and minds. (NO--- not the ones we are talking about here, duh!)

[camohn]

All our polo ponies are QH based stock horses: 1 QH, 1 unspotted Paint and 3 Appaloosas. Polo ponies are cutting horses (run/rollback/turn and run) dressed in an English close contact saddle! I will have to load the pics onto photobucket later. None are halter bred of course! Hombre (the QH) is pretty tanky for a polo pony though. He is neither the fastest nor the handiest of the lot but hubby likes him because he is so smooth he is the easiest one to hit the ball off of. (The poor unfortunate beast has the registered name of A Fist Full of Hombre. Eeeew! We got him off the racetrack as a lead pony. He was intended to be an AQHA show horse but he paddles so his owner also had racehorses and relegated him off to the lead pony job instead. Polo players do not care about confo faults and movement defects if they do the job!) The others....
The Paint mare was supposed to be a hunter for her previous owner but she HATES to jump. The bigger issue was that she is a pushy mare (good for polo) but the owner was a nervous rider and Jewel got her ticket PDQ. 2 weeks of boot camp here and she was not pushing people around any more!!
Emma the Appy was on the Appy race circuit first. Then she was a field hunter for her previous owner and now a polo pony here.
Freckles in new and only coming 3. She is actually one that will have polo as a first job since hubby got HER as a 2 YO last fall! She was also intended for the Appy race circuit but she was a bit of a runt (on the small side for her age: 14.2 as a long 2 YO) so the race breeder wanted to move her along. (She also grew about 3 inches over the winter he he he).

[not again]

Here's one:
http://www.atlanticequineservices.com/stallion.html

[Halfhalting]

I boarded at a barn with an HYPP stallion in the early 90's, it was shameful. I sadly and helplessly watched a beautiful 3yo buckskin filly of his have an HYPP fit in the field. She died a year later from it. People continued to breed to him, and the breeder downplayed it. I sat on that stallion once in the roundpen, I remember it felt like I was stretched with my legs strait out and his neck was so thick it looked like I was riding a missle. Amazing really, but so unnatural.

Anyway, I would like to say that this breed is so blessed with the most incredible brain. You couldn't pay me enough money to ride my horses in a bridleless class! I want to give kudos to all of the good breeders out there that continue to breed healthy and amateur-friendly QHs. From reading this thread, they obviously have their battles in this breed.

[Hillside H Ranch]

These guys stand some really cool QH stallions, IMO. Mostly working ranch type horses and they show them in the NCHA, the NRHA and AQHA shows. They also have some racing stallions, but I don't know anything about them.

http://www.6666ranch.com/Stallions.shtml

Edited to add that Carole Rose stands some of the most famous working QHs in the world and she has a fantastic repuation for her managment and training. She is a stand-up individual. Again, working type horses, not halter or WP. http://www.carolrose.com/stallions.html

[Foxtrot's]

Just a long-shot. Is Carol Rose related to Matlock Rose. We saw him ride Peppy San and it was one of the most awesome performances I've ever seen.

[Hillside H Ranch]

Just a long-shot. Is Carol Rose related to Matlock Rose. We saw him ride Peppy San and it was one of the most awesome performances I've ever seen.

I'm pretty sure that Matlock was Carole's husband.

[cookie-monster]

Matlock Rose passed away on Jan. 5 of this year. He is a legend, as is Peppy San.

He was married to Carol Rose at one time.

[Foxtrot's]

Oh, I'm so sorry. I used to spend quite a bit of time visiting the Douglas Lake Cattle Ranch - lots of old memories. I'll have to p/u a copy of Western Horseman as there is sure to be an article on him. Thanks.

[PaulaK]

Without getting into the HYPP insanity google Mister GQ; N/H, Halter World Champion, World Champion Producer, also won Non-Pro Western Pleasure at Solid Gold Futurity as a 3 yr old with owner aboard. He's siring both halter and riders.
There is a ranch in Mexico/Arizona that is using halter horse bloodlines for their ranch horses. (featured in a Western Horseman article)
I'm a AQHA peep from way back and hate the way the halter horses have evolved. I also believe the Performance Halter is a joke. Simple solution would be to not use serious confirmation flaws in classes PERIOD. Too bad if some classes would have no placings at all! That would encourage more "using" horses to enter the halter classes (as is should be). JMO and I'm not holding my breath!

[silver2]

I like QHs, I always have. They are sort of the opposite of what I do (dressage/SJ) but what the heck, they are fun and team penning is ~totally awesome~. If they let me drink that much beer and let the announcers heckle at hunter shows I might do that too.

But I digress, as a result of my new-found love of team penning I wound up helping a friend start and train some futurity horses and also some barrel horses. The slow gaits, it is natural. Maybe not as seen on YouTube but it's super easy for the breed to collect up under your seat and bebop along at a cattle-herding pace all day long or to step into a tiny lope. The one QH we taught to drive had a very easy time learning the different trot speeds, which can be quite hard for other breeds.

So far, so good. Then I went to QH Congress. Holy Mother of God, was that an interesting experience. The air-brushed trailers! The patent leather Wranglers! The margarita makers, built right into the golfcarts! The makeup and the hair! The men dressing in drag! It was a freakin' blast. The classes were a bit puzzling though- halter horses looked like cows (and not pretty cows either) the HUS looked emaciated, practically abuse cases, and the western pleasure was booooring. Everyone was in brand new tack. I couldn't figure out what the deal was. Then I did and it was $$$$$. Win Dressage at Devon? A handshake and bragging rights. Win a Non-Pro Futurity at Congress? A gooseneck trailer, multiple silver saddles and enough cash, as it turned out, to remodel a pretty good sized house. The pros were winning trucks and shit. Holy freaking cow, I'd be tempted to starve my horse a bit too.

[Appsolute]

So maybe, what has happened to the Halter horse is a result of losing sight of what is important. The Horse, or the party and the money.

If I want to party... I will go on a vacation and party, but when I am with my horse, the horse is always my top priority.


Then I went to QH Congress. Holy Mother of God, was that an interesting experience. The air-brushed trailers! The patent leather Wranglers! The margarita makers, built right into the golfcarts! The makeup and the hair! The men dressing in drag! It was a freakin' blast. The classes were a bit puzzling though- halter horses looked like cows (and not pretty cows either) the HUS looked emaciated, practically abuse cases, and the western pleasure was booooring. Everyone was in brand new tack. I couldn't figure out what the deal was. Then I did and it was $$$$$. Win Dressage at Devon? A handshake and bragging rights. Win a Non-Pro Futurity at Congress? A gooseneck trailer, multiple silver saddles and enough cash, as it turned out, to remodel a pretty good sized house. The pros were winning trucks and shit. Holy freaking cow, I'd be tempted to starve my horse a bit too.

[TKR]

It really is a puzzle -- like several different "breeds" when you look at the differences between halter/HUS/WP and then reining or cutting or racing! The $$ incentives reminds me of the bad things that have happened with all the pharmaceutical incentives to doctors to encourage them to use or prescribe their drugs -- now we have a huge problem with prescription drug abuse! Another lobbist issue type situation! I don't know how they will resolve this with so much $$ involved and judges and competitors and breeders being interchangeable along with the officers and egos of the AQHA. Anytime you mix in alot of dough it isn't good for the innocent victims -- they just become a by-product. Very, very sad, particularly considering what a wonderful breed the QH really is! It would probably take a VIP with deep pockets to step forward and start the ball rolling and alot of back-up from the general membership. How bad does it have to get to change for the better?
PennyG

[camohn]

With the QH/Paints there are a variety of types that make up HUS, WP, racing and reining/cutting. That is all well and good. Kind of like there are TBs that come in a variety of type (QH looking, WB looking, classic leggy TB looking) but the odd part about the halter horses is that they seem to be an ideal body type for NONE of the under saddle disciplines.

[TaliaCristianna]

This was my foundation bred QH stallion, Heza Skipper JJ.

His grand sire was a world champion & multiple world champion (halter & performance) sire. His sire was a ROM earner in roping. JJ spent most of his life as my sole riding horse. (He is now in Texas making babies!)

http://share.shutterfly.com/action/slideshow?a=67b0de21b35d0e7205cc&sid=8AcNnDdu5cOGFX&auto=1&idx=-1&m=1&d=1201529182082

He's got the heavy muscling and typical foundation QH build, but he is also a very beautiful and light mover. Moved the exact same way under saddle.

He had the most wonderful disposition and mind. I would trust him with even the most inexperienced handler/rider. THAT is where the QH really shines. (Not that you can't find horses like that in every breed.)

[clevengerpaints]

Here is my halter mare..

http://www.freewebs.com/clevengerpainthorses/aphasophiasautograph.htm

She is out in pasture 24/7 with other horses. Only stalled when she is very close to foaling. Shes never been shown anything higher then just regular local shows for fun.. She rides, and does it all.. I love this mare to death!! I do not agree with alot of practices that Halter people do.. That is why I do not show the big shows.. I like my horses to be horses.

[TaliaCristianna]

Clevenger, she's the kind of mare I would have LOVED to breed my stallion to. She looks like a real powerhouse, and what a producer!

[Fairview Horse Center]

This bridleless video shows what a real QH looks and moves like. http://www.westfallhorsemanship.com/index.php?page=seeus&action=category&id=2

[clevengerpaints]

Clevenger, she's the kind of mare I would have LOVED to breed my stallion to. She looks like a real powerhouse, and what a producer!
Thank you! We are very proud of this mare! She has certainly earned her keep around here.. She is to me, one of those once in a lifetime horses you get..(my dream horse! )

[imversatyl]

Versatility is dead. Get over it! AQHA knows this very well. How many AQHA Championships been awarded the last 20 years? VERY FEW, due to the fact that most couldn't get their halter points. That's why AQHA developed the Performance Halter Class (a total joke - it's like sorting trash!). To prove my case... AQHA has even gone so far to segregate the JQ-URINAL, oops, I mean the JOURNAL into separate categories. If the quarter horse was so versatile, why would they need to do all of this?

I know that this is hard to believe, but there are thousands of people that own horses that NEVER WANT TO RIDE. Wow, what a revelation to many of you. We selectively breed greyhounds to be fast, beagles to hunt rabbits, australian sheppards to herd animals, but not one of you seem to have a problem with this. So what if a group of people want to breed horses that only have one particular purpose (jog past a judge and look pretty)?

For years, breeders have selected horses that have attributes that contribute to a specific class. Hunter/jumpers have selected horses with height, long strides, high neck sets. Western Pleasure enthusiasts wanted horses with naturally low head carriage and a slow/sweepy gait. And halter horse breeders selected horses with arab like heads, refinement, and muscle mass. What's the big deal?

I have own/shown congress champions, national high point horses, etc. and I do remember 20 years ago the feeling of winning at halter and pleasure, but everyone has specialized. We can't turn back now. Just MOVE ON!

[NoDQhere]

Well, for starters a horse is a whole different animal than a dog. Bigger, more expensive to keep, blah, blah, blah.

Breeding animals that are unhealthy (HYPP) and unsound (just look at that conformation) is just plain wrong. I'm sorry but quality of life has to mean something.

Oh he!!, why bother:rolleyes:

[BelladonnaLily]

The BAD trainers do this...don't believe it of the whole industry. It was big back in the early 90s...but the industry is moving way past that. Those horses are mostly bred to move with their heads that way.

Please don't spread rumors about an industry that you don't have experience with.

Hmmm, well, I walked through the barns at Lexington about 5 years ago during a QH event, and counted more with heads tied up then not...

I don't think the industry is moving past much...I think they just hide it better and have changed their marketing strategy...

[imversatyl]

For only $1500 you too could end up with a foal whose chances of being an HYPP carrier are 100%! http://www.encorefarm.net/ These guys stand a stallion that is not just N/H (bad enough) but H/H (truly disturbing) - I didn't realize there were still such horses out there breeding.

Edited to add: Upon viewing their broodmare page, I've learned that Encore Farm does not have a SINGLE foal coming (as far as their website reflects) in 2008 that does not have a N/H or H/H parent. Not ONE healthy foal on the way.

If you had closely looked at the broodmare page, you would have "learned" that every foal coming had at least one parent that was N/N. Breeding a N/N mare to a N/H stallion will result in a N/N foal 50% of the time and N/H the other 50% of the time. Granted when breeding his N/N mares to his H/H stallion will result 100% of the foals being N/H. So to say that not ONE healthy foal on the way is not true. Until N/H horses fail to sell like hot cakes, N/H horses will continue to be promoted.

Additionally, I hate to point this out to many of you, but the stallion, Diversified is probably one of the greatest quarter horse stallions ever to be shown. He was a World Champion Two year old Western Pleasure horse, then later became a Three time World Champion Halter Horse. He also had Superiors in Halter, Western Pleasure, Hunter Under Saddle, Heading and Heeling. I guess the fact he was N/H didn't hinder his success.

Despite the fact that he only had one full breeding season in the states, before being sold to South America, Diversified sired many World Champions in Halter, Western Pleasure, and I believe Reining. Today many World Champion/Congress Champion Western Pleasure horses are HYPP positive, but no attention is given to them.

Once the "long back" gene, "crooked legged" gene, "long eared" gene, etc. is identified, I can't wait to see if some of these sanctimonious, gene "purists" will call out those that continue to breed to those genetically impure/defective horses!

I have to ask, why would a person marry and have kids with a person, knowing full well that their potential mate has a very strong family history of cancer, cystic fibrosis, etc., of which there is no cure? You'll likely answer that medications/treatments exist that manage those conditions and you don't throw the baby out with the bath water. We all have our "perfect mate" in mind with certain traits that are uniquely important to us that we want to pass on to our kids. But I have to point out that pills are available to HYPP horses that happen to need them.

I have showed horses for over 25 years, and I am here to tell you, a horse is much more likely to die of colic, than he is to die of HYPP. How many horses have ever died of HYPP? Why doesn't any horse lovers ever ask that question? Any vet will tell you it's very hard to determine if HYPP is the cause of death.

[amdfarm]

Somewhere along the line, apparently, someone really misunderstood what "straight legs" was supposed to mean...

I was thinking the same thing myself. I don't care for that horse's entire rearend at all.

[amdfarm]

This is the first I've seen horses this beefy...is this one for real http://www.doublelacres.com/DCPrecision.html or is that photoshopped?

Since this thread is old, I haven't read through all the pages, just making comments as I go along.

What's sad about that stallion is that he DIED AT SEVEN! :eek::( Found dead in his stall at feeding time. What a shame. I do believe his gaskins were really THAT big. Freaky and sad at the same time.

[amdfarm]

Edited to add that Carole Rose stands some of the most famous working QHs in the world and she has a fantastic repuation for her managment and training. She is a stand-up individual. Again, working type horses, not halter or WP. http://www.carolrose.com/stallions.html

Pepto, now he's a darn good egg. His fee is $18k this year.