for those who think NB isn't pure fantasy & butchery

[jack mac]

Seen as iv been demonised as a troll on this forum & even it seems by the moderator 1, I'm not going to enter in to any debate, other than to ask those who support NB to read the fine print & hopefully have an explanation why & how theses qualified persons got it so wrong & there NB guru Gene is so right ?:)
http://old.cvm.msu.edu/dressage/articles/mcpres/MOEL.htm

[jack mac]

Did you have a good read NBers or are you to busy hiding under a rock as usual when confronted with the truth ,some people need to stop clinging to feel good do do storeys & get with whats true in life, sorry moderator, but some times things have to be said in this world to make a difference, if that makes me a troll & worthy of being banned then so be it, i can live with that, beats the hell out of standing back saying nothing & watching horses being crippled time & time again day in day out.:mad:

[LMH]

Perhaps if every member of COTH put darling jack on the 'ignore' list all of this nonsense would go away?

[ChocoMare]

I just did. Thanks for reminding of that handy-dandy feature ;)

[Moderator 1]

All members of this board are welcome to discuss, ignore or address posts as they wish, as long as their methods of communication adhere to the rules of the forum and maintain a generally respectful and productive atmosphere.

Jack Mac, you're welcome to excerpt specific portions of the paper to which you've linked in order to foster further discussion if others wish to participate.

[sublimequine]

Forget saying no to drugs.. SAY NO TO TROLLS! :lol:

[deltawave]

Interesting link and interesting reading. The word "natural" appeared once and the word "balance" appeared not at all in the article. So jm's point escapes me (as usual) but it's a neat thing to read anyhow. :)

In my field, people who cling to one bit of dogma over the years and never let it go are called something a lot more derisive than a "one trick pony". :no:

[J Swan]

Didn't we already have this discussion already?


I've never known the NB method to be referred to as butchery. It's pretty much just a certain sort of trim with certain shoes that works for some horses.

Never thought there was any fantasizing involved.

[Dapple Dawn Farm]

Is Jac Mac joking...I especially liked the second post by JM :no:

[Dune]

OP, I think there is a better way of stating your views so that you don't get labeled unnecessarily as a troll. I guess what I might respectfully suggest is that you word your posts more professionally and not succumb to foul language. I'm assuming that you are a farrier and if I read your posts and was your customer, I'd be a little embarrassed. :o I realize that you are obviously passionate about your views and that is good, it is difficult sometimes however to not "cross the line". My opinion, for what it's worth anyway, and yes I know you didn't ask. :winkgrin:In any case, I'll play along, assuming the best for now. I did have an experience with a NB farrier who shod my horse a few times and even had Gene on the phone during the procedure(s). I say procedure because every shoeing took several hours and quite often she had her head on the ground assessing angles and such. I can tell you that I took a good bit of ribbing from the BO and the other boarders. I can also tell you that it helped not a bit and when I finally got the farrier that kept this horse sound for years he was one that made his own shoes and had not-so-nice things to say about the "ready-fit" shoes. :no: I'm not against them for uncomplicated horses and in this gal's defense, I went through several farriers to get to the ONE that worked. JME:)

[RAyers]

I fail to see how the linked article has any bearing, positive or negative on NB or regular shoeing. Dr. Clayton simply describes the biomechanics/kinetics of the limb without any sort of relation to farriery. It is a good biomechanics article.

Reed

[goeslikestink]

I fail to see how the linked article has any bearing, positive or negative on NB or regular shoeing. Dr. Clayton simply describes the biomechanics/kinetics of the limb without any sort of relation to farriery. It is a good biomechanics article.

Reed

tend to agree-jm very hard for people to judge you when you dont say exactly what you do in the horse world-- and you give this and that of information and you yourself have admitted you google it-- so therefore most is third hand and hearsay so for people to judge as you have percieved by some then you only have yourself to blame by what you write

if you are a triainer or a farrier etc then say so-- it might help

[chism]

Well...if it looks like a troll, and acts like a troll...
Maybe you really don't understand how this works, consider this a PSA...really, if you want people to have a rational, intelligent discussion with you on any subject, ESPECIALLY hoof care, then you have to present it in an intelligent, rational, NON-COMBATIVE way. Every post of yours I've read has made me less and less inclined to give any merit to anything you post.

[jack mac]

The rudeness on my part stems from frustration with having to deal with what i refer to as smiling saboteurs, who's sole purpose on theses forums is to insure any topic up for discussion that doesn't fit with there little agenda or contradicts what they believe is true wont & mustn't succeed , the smiling saboteurs are usually the first to cry troll & encouraging others to do the same :) the article clearly defines that a horse needs the toe of his hoof to get lift & drive from, both front & hind feet, so it is fundamental in proper stride function in all gaits, NB protocol is based on the "total opposite". they can church NB up all they like, the fact is the toe is a critical part of the limb function, if you cant fathom or grasp what consequences & detrimental effects removing it from the function of the limb will cause, then i suggest maybe goldfish might be your calling in life.

[JB]

Well then jackmac, why don't you draw/take a picture of/find a picture on the net of a properly trimmed foot, a long-toed foot, both with the PROPER placement of a NB shoe, and explain, in detail, why you think that is wrong, how it differs from a properly placed non-NB shoe, and how it differs from a bare foot that either is already properly trimmed, or has the breakover put where it needs to be until that's how it grows.

Because so far, none of your arguments make ANY sense to ANYone here, including several vets and several certified farriers, nor anyone else. You never prove anything, yet continue down the same path with the same arguments.

[Rick Burten]

the article clearly defines that a horse needs the toe of his hoof to get lift & drive from, both front & hind feet,
Not quite.
so it is fundamental in proper stride function in all gaits, NB protocol is based on the "total opposite".
Wrong. Your misunderstanding/blind hatred of the NB protocols has caused you to make erroneous assumptions and state logical fallacies.
they can church NB up all they like, the fact is the toe is a critical part of the limb function, if you cant fathom or grasp what consequences & detrimental effects removing it from the function of the limb will cause, then i suggest maybe goldfish might be your calling in life.
So explain why the following shoe modifications are part and parcel of any qualified farrier's "bag of tricks":
Rolled toes
Rockered Toes,
Blunt toes,
Square toes

Concave shoes with the toe knit shut
Half-round shoes.

For, in truth and practice, each of these shoes and modifications affects the toe and its place in hoof and limb function.

Have you personally ever used any of the enumerated shoes or modifications? If so, which ones, and why?

Perhaps its time for you to make personal use of your suggestion.

[Rick Burten]

Well then jackmac, ...................... You never prove anything, yet continue down the same path with the same arguments.
Albert Einstein defined Insanity as " doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. ..."

So, it would seem we could take that definition and apply it to the consistency of the body of work Jack Mac produces and then draw our conclusions.......

[jack mac]

Lets have a fundamental look at what you would fit to the hinds of a horse with your NB protocol & what i fit to the hinds of horse i shoe, before we start talking about trimming a hoof properly & fitting shoes, contracted heels come to mind when i look at your shoes rick, ill let the punters judge,
jacks http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0561.jpg Rickshttp://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/hi-losyndrome016.jpg

[jack mac]

And these are the frontshttp://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0564.jpg :)

[jack mac]

Albert Einstein defined Insanity as " doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. ..."

So, it would seem we could take that definition and apply it to the consistency of the body of work Jack Mac produces and then draw our conclusions....... ill let the quality of your work speak for its self Rick. your quite welcome to call me insane :)
http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6809&page=3

[Rick Burten]

ill let the quality of your work speak for its self Rick. your quite welcome to call me insane :)
http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6809&page=3
I have no idea what your problem with the shoeing/shoes I presented might be. Why not enlighten us. And while your at it, post some photos of the feet your display shoes went on. Before and after photos from the front, side and bottom will do.

By the way, here in the States, it is only customary to toe clip the hinds on draft horses. And, as a rule, generally speaking,we don't find it necessary to have twelve nail holes in a shoe, except perhaps on the TB race track or in the case of some hoof pathology.

Oh, and Jack, the first photos of the hind end of the horse, the shoes were forged and fit with lateral extensions and were appropriately boxed. You have a problem with that? If so, you might want to look at the photos Mr. Pethick posted later in the thread. You got a problem with them too?

The symmetry of your samples seems, pair to pair, to be rather skewed. what's up with that?

[jack mac]

I have no idea what your problem with the shoeing/shoes I presented might be. Why not enlighten us. And while your at it, post some photos of the feet your display shoes went on. Before and after photos from the front, side and bottom will do.

By the way, here in the States, it is only customary to toe clip the hinds on draft horses. And, as a rule, generally speaking,we don't find it necessary to have twelve nail holes in a shoe, except perhaps on the TB race track or in the case of some hoof pathology.

Oh, and Jack, the first photos of the hind end of the horse, the shoes were forged and fit with lateral extensions and were appropriately boxed. You have a problem with that? If so, you might want to look at the photos Mr. Pethick posted later in the thread. You got a problem with them too?

The symmetry of your samples seems, pair to pair, to be rather skewed. what's up with that? lol there not my display shoes, there just what i put on most of the Thoroughbred's when there in pre training & working on granitic sand they last a little longer then aluminium & horses hooves are not symmetrical & those who think they are cant possibly fit any shoe properly

[Rick Burten]

Perhaps you missed the part of my symmetry comment where I referred to the pairs being out of symmetry with each other?

Now Jack, lets get back to your allusions regarding my work. time for you to get specific.

And, when might we expect you to post some photos of hooves, both shod and unshod, of horses for which you provide services? I certainly hope you're being neither reticent or coy.

[jack mac]

Perhaps you missed the part of my symmetry comment where I referred to the pairs being out of symmetry with each other?

Now Jack, lets get back to your allusions regarding my work. time for you to get specific.

And, when might we expect you to post some photos of hooves, both shod and unshod, of horses for which you provide services? I certainly hope you're being neither reticent or coy.I'm not going to make this personal rick, like i said ill let the punters judge .as for the shoes there just knocked in to shape to what the shape of a horses foot should be they hadn't been fitted yet lol . ill take some picks of one iv got to do tomorrow, i no his feet will be in a knocked about state his been turned out for over 6 months ill take picks & post them.:)

[jack mac]

Well then jackmac, why don't you draw/take a picture of/find a picture on the net of a properly trimmed foot, a long-toed foot, both with the PROPER placement of a NB shoe, and explain, in detail, why you think that is wrong, how it differs from a properly placed non-NB shoe, and how it differs from a bare foot that either is already properly trimmed, or has the breakover put where it needs to be until that's how it grows.

Because so far, none of your arguments make ANY sense to ANYone here, including several vets and several certified farriers, nor anyone else. You never prove anything, yet continue down the same path with the same arguments. i can see were some Americans can't fathom or comprehend it as they have spent there whole life looking at over paired soles & frogs over lowed & contracted up heels with shoes set to far back & been taught & told this is good for the horse & how a normal healthy hoof should look then wonder why when they try to replicate it time & time again the horse ends up lame , its just plain madness to use a worn out hoof as your basis to shoe horses from, if you really thought hard & logical about why you shoe a horse in the first place its prety dam obverses, it so they don't get in to that worn out state in the first place, iv said this before you wouldn't replace a worn out hip joint with one modeled on the same worn out hip, you would replace it with one that was modeled on a hip joint that wasn't worn out, its as simple logic as that & sadly the next crazy fad that's taken of like wild fire in the USA is lets XRay & line up all the bones crew, cutting heels to low in the first place then wedging them up again its more crazy science, because joints articulate & not all pasterns & cannon bones are the same length on horses & vary tremendously, so in most horses trying to line them up is detrimental to there ligaments & tendons, farriering is not advancing its regressing sadly. I have no problem sharing my knowledge with any one who is genuine in seeking it.:)but i have no tolerance for time wasters that just want to disrupt.

[JB]

i can see were some Americans can't fathom or comprehend it as they have spent there whole life looking at over paired soles & frogs over lowed & contracted up heels with shoes set to far back & been taught & told this is good for the horse & how a normal healthy hoof should look then wonder why when they try to replicate it time & time again the horse ends up lame
Ohhhh, lmao! You're right jack, that hoof form IS prevalent here and it IS wrong. And those of us who bother with you at all KNOW it's wrong. But I tall ya what, it's not strictly an "American" thing, so what else do you have?

its just plain madness to use a worn out hoof as your basis to shoe horses from,
And just what is a "worn out hoof" and where does anyone use it as a basis to shoe from?

if you really thought hard & logical about why you shoe a horse in the first place its prety dam obverses, it so they don't get in to that worn out state in the first place,
...or perhaps, the horse needs the shoes for protection, for the addition of caulks, as a medical plate for injury/disease.

sadly the next crazy fad that's taken of like wild fire in the USA is lets XRay & line up all the bones crew,
Why don't you explain why that's a fad (and it's hardly new) and why it's not a good idea to line up P1-3?

cutting heels to low in the first place then wedging them up again its more crazy science,
so you'd rather leave on heels that are 2" long but crushed? Interesting...

because joints articulate & not all pasterns & cannon bones are the same length on horses & vary tremendously, so in most horses trying to line them up is detrimental to there ligaments & tendons,
Length has nothing to do with this. Pray tell, why is that you and you alone say that doing the best to line up the P1-3 joints is detrimental? I would LOVE to hear it. Feel free to get as technical (or not ;)) as you wish

farriering is not advancing its regressing sadly. I have no problem sharing my knowledge with any one who is genuine in seeking it.:)but i have no tolerance for time wasters that just want to disrupt.
But you haven't shared squat! You've spouted off opinion with absolutely nothing to back it up.

If you have no tolerance, they why in the world do you keep starting these threads?

[J Swan]

This American doesn't know what the heck you are talking about.

Post a picture of a horse trimmed to your specifications and the post a picture of hooves trimmed using the method of which you disapprove.

Then explain why each method, except the one you advocate, results in lame horses.

Then this American might know what the heck you are talking about.



i can see were some Americans can't fathom or comprehend it as they have spent there whole life looking at over paired soles & frogs over lowed & contracted up heels with shoes set to far back & been taught & told this is good for the horse & how a normal healthy hoof should look then wonder why when they try to replicate it time & time again the horse ends up lame , its just plain madness to use a worn out hoof as your basis to shoe horses from, if you really thought hard & logical about why you shoe a horse in the first place its prety dam obverses, it so they don't get in to that worn out state in the first place, iv said this before you wouldn't replace a worn out hip joint with one modeled on the same worn out hip, you would replace it with one that was modeled on a hip joint that wasn't worn out, its as simple logic as that & sadly the next crazy fad that's taken of like wild fire in the USA is lets XRay & line up all the bones crew, cutting heels to low in the first place then wedging them up again its more crazy science, because joints articulate & not all pasterns & cannon bones are the same length on horses & vary tremendously, so in most horses trying to line them up is detrimental to there ligaments & tendons, farriering is not advancing its regressing sadly. I have no problem sharing my knowledge with any one who is genuine in seeking it.:)but i have no tolerance for time wasters that just want to disrupt.

[JHUshoer20]

By the way, here in the States, it is only customary to toe clip the hinds on draft horses. Is no hard and fast rule about clipping. Is also up to the discretion of the individual doing the work. And, as a rule, generally speaking,we don't find it necessary to have twelve nail holes in a shoe, except perhaps on the TB race track or in the case of some hoof pathology. Is handy to have a lot of nail holes, gives many nail placement options. Concaves pictured are popular in Australia, New Zealand etc. Have tried them and are a nice shoe. Maybe is good that US doesn't have all those holes. We have plenty of cowboys and dirt farmers that would try to fill them all:yes::)

[AnotherRound]

I can't beleive you folks got suckered into responding to him again! All he wants to do is disrupt and argue! Just thought I would say.

[J Swan]

Yeah, I don't know why I responded.....

[JB]

Hehe, me neither, except that I'm in a mood :winkgrin:

[Rick Burten]

sadly the next crazy fad that's taken of like wild fire in the USA is lets XRay & line up all the bones crew, cutting heels to low in the first place then wedging them up again its more crazy science, because joints articulate & not all pasterns & cannon bones are the same length on horses & vary tremendously, so in most horses trying to line them up is detrimental to there ligaments & tendons,
Were they still alive, this would come as quite a shock to such notables as Lungwitz, Leisering, Hartmann, Dollar, and Wheatley, and to those such as Denoix, Clayton, Pollitt, Bennett, et al, who are still living.
farriering is not advancing its regressing sadly.
Perhaps in your piece of the sandpile, that is so. But not in my piece of the sandpile, nor that of most farriers.
I have no problem sharing my knowledge with any one who is genuine in seeking it.
Really? Thus far, the facts in evidence present view that differs diametrically.
but i have no tolerance for time wasters that just want to disrupt.
Then, "Physician, heal thy self".

[deltawave]

How can you sit there, 12000 miles away, and declaim (not to mention condemn) what is taking place in the USA? PLEASE don't tell me you're developing your viewpoints based on what you see and read on the internet! :lol: :lol: That's as bad as watching Fox and calling it "News". :p

[Rick Burten]

like i said ill let the punters judge .
I'm not familliar with your Australian Colloquialisms so, what's a 'punter'?

[Katy Watts]

Here’s a document that might be germane to this discussion.

http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HOR/US-25A.doc

WASTAGE IN THE AUSTRALIAN THOROUGHBRED RACING INDUSTRY

“There are limited published results from Australian studies that measure the impact of injury and disease in horses in training. Mason and Bourke (1973) followed 74 Thoroughbreds during their two-year-old racing season and reported that 40% were unsound at the end of the season, although unsoundness was inadequately defined.
The most common cause of unsoundness during the season was sore shins (46%), followed by knee problems (17%), splints (13.5%), sprained fetlock joint (9.5%) and sesamoid problems (5.4%). The distribution of the sites of lameness show a much higher occurrence of sore shins in Australian Thoroughbreds compared to those in England, where approximately 9% of cases of lameness are associated with sore shins (Jeffcott et al., 1982; Rossdale et al., 1985).”

[goeslikestink]

ill let the quality of your work speak for its self Rick. your quite welcome to call me insane :)
http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6809&page=3

as i also have clips front and back one in fronts two in hinds
i have no problem as the horse is fitted with shoe of which rick actually has pictures altho not good ones

and if you are commenting about his work as in spare bit-- thats so it encourages the quarters to grow down into the plate along with the heals that much i do know

i see nothig wrong in rick workmanship--at all and i would have him come and shoe my neds anyday of the week and they do behave

as for your shoes why on earth have you so many nail holes-- i only have 7 in ashoe
and sometimes they are fixed if on ponies with 5 nails

unless your shoes are so light weight they come off-- then of course you need more nail holes to keep the things on- but if so light weight then theres a problem that could arise from it to

one two many holes in -- something- means the sthrenght of that something has gone
to many nails to support would mean if the shoe broke or got stuck more likely to have a more serious injury -- via so many nail holes and nails-- to the same foot and to the other feet-- and also being that the nail holes are so close together at the toe end then there no allowance of flexability of the foot nor shoe--as the shoe its slef would be weak and due that fact that so many nails holes are put in and the metal is thin --there for when ones competiing be it racing or otherwise the shoe ist supporting the foot as it should and therefore must shoed more often than not putting more pressure and strain on ones feet on the horse than it needs as you would be trimming and shoeing adding to the discomfort of the horse and the circle of shoeing would be within the normal circle of a noraml horse -- meaning- that
the horse would be come sore and not perform all because of the shoes it wore as you state you do your shoes like that and show like that-- so must do them all like that and easy money as dont com out of your comfort zone and think

what the horse needs and what is good for the horse
and having that many nail holes -- if oyu was a smithy over here in uk i be morelikely not to employ your services
reasons is -- different style of shoeeing i be worried if my horse could infact injury itself with a weaking shoe that could possibale break when competing
thats logical thinking

[goeslikestink]

The rudeness on my part stems from frustration with having to deal with what i refer to as smiling saboteurs, who's sole purpose on theses forums is to insure any topic up for discussion that doesn't fit with there little agenda or contradicts what they believe is true wont & mustn't succeed , the smiling saboteurs are usually the first to cry troll & encouraging others to do the same :) the article clearly defines that a horse needs the toe of his hoof to get lift & drive from, both front & hind feet, so it is fundamental in proper stride function in all gaits, NB protocol is based on the "total opposite". they can church NB up all they like, the fact is the toe is a critical part of the limb function, if you cant fathom or grasp what consequences & detrimental effects removing it from the function of the limb will cause, then i suggest maybe goldfish might be your calling in life.

no sir-- the rudeness comes from the posts and threads you have written by googleing information and they saying you bleed horses alive horses which is the same kind of butchery as close to as an abusive horse owner you can get

so no one has faith in you-- as they are all horse owners mainly with a few vets and farriers trianers throw in

but on on the whole sir--- are the bread and butter of ones pockets
in other words clients and customers sir

[longview_bc]

Lets have a fundamental look at what you would fit to the hinds of a horse with your NB protocol & what i fit to the hinds of horse i shoe, before we start talking about trimming a hoof properly & fitting shoes, contracted heels come to mind when i look at your shoes rick, ill let the punters judge,
jacks http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0561.jpg Rickshttp://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/hi-losyndrome016.jpg

Hi all,

Jacko,

I find it funny that you can take pictures of manufactured shoes and run down others work but you don't show pictures of your own work like we have asked sooo many times. Maybe your whats called in your country a poser.

Kevin

[jack mac]

Hi all,

Jacko,

I find it funny that you can take pictures of manufactured shoes and run down others work but you don't show pictures of your own work like we have asked sooo many times. Maybe your whats called in your country a poser.

KevinThey are indeed machine made NZL but made here in Australia, i didn't posted them other then an example of the shape of the shoe i fit compared to NB shoes rick fits, "never claimed i made them" only shaped them & i use a lot of them because the nail hole are punched the same as a st croft concord Alum plate & i can buy a set of them cheaper than the steel to make them. Ps how many race horses do you plate Keven ?

[jack mac]

Hi all,

Jacko,

I find it funny that you can take pictures of manufactured shoes and run down others work but you don't show pictures of your own work like we have asked sooo many times. Maybe your whats called in your country a poser.

Kevin & thought it appropriate seen as rick didn't make those NB or eventers, it not about who can make a better shoe in this thread its about trim & fit if you wont to make it about who can make a better shoe get $50,000 U.S together For a comp & ill gladly take 3 month off & fly over.;)

[JB]

it not about who can make a better shoe in this thread its about trim & fit

Well, then set an example and show us your work. My abacus has run out of room to count the times we have (mostly) politely asked for this.

[jack mac]

Here’s a document that might be germane to this discussion.

http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HOR/US-25A.doc

WASTAGE IN THE AUSTRALIAN THOROUGHBRED RACING INDUSTRY

“There are limited published results from Australian studies that measure the impact of injury and disease in horses in training. Mason and Bourke (1973) followed 74 Thoroughbreds during their two-year-old racing season and reported that 40% were unsound at the end of the season, although unsoundness was inadequately defined.
The most common cause of unsoundness during the season was sore shins (46%), followed by knee problems (17%), splints (13.5%), sprained fetlock joint (9.5%) and sesamoid problems (5.4%). The distribution of the sites of lameness show a much higher occurrence of sore shins in Australian Thoroughbreds compared to those in England, where approximately 9% of cases of lameness are associated with sore shins (Jeffcott et al., 1982; Rossdale et al., 1985).”You should add they race them at 2 years of age here :sadsmile: not something i agree with but i don't make the rules the racing clubs & trainers do & of course there will be more injures there still growing & haven't finished developing, all i can do is shoe it the best i can so it doesnt happen to the ones I'm plating, if the clubs didn't set the stakes so high for two year old races then the trainers wouldn't be racing theses horses until they were 3 or 4 ,you won't find me arguing racing horses at 2 is a good thing far from it, iv had to shoot to many of them :sadsmile:

[jack mac]

[QUOTE=Katy Watts;2959765]Here’s a document that might be germane to this discussion.

http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HOR/US-25A.doc

WASTAGE IN THE AUSTRALIAN THOROUGHBRED RACING INDUSTRY

[Pippin]

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/sho...?t=6809&page=3

love the different shoe jobs.. great site..

P~

[jack mac]

I'm not familliar with your Australian Colloquialisms so, what's a 'punter'? There the persons that place bets at a race track. "slang" anyone who sits on the side line with an opinion on how its going to turn out ;)

[jack mac]

How can you sit there, 12000 miles away, and declaim (not to mention condemn) what is taking place in the USA? PLEASE don't tell me you're developing your viewpoints based on what you see and read on the internet! :lol: :lol: That's as bad as watching Fox and calling it "News". :pDid i say all American farriers it was a retired American farrier that helped in the stile & shape of the st croft concord race plates & as far as I'm concerned the best plate that has come on to the market at this present time, That American although i have never meet the man, one can tell straight away by the shape of the plates he knew a horses feet well & was a master at his craft . so ill say it again, DID I SAY ALL AMERICAN FARRIERS.

[JHUshoer20]

That American although i have never meet the man, one can tell straight away by the shape of the plates he knew a horses feet well & was a master at his craft . so ill say it again, DID I SAY ALL AMERICAN FARRIERS.
Jack,
I know the guy you're talking about. He lives near me and everything you say is true. In addition to that he's also a fine gentleman.
George

[Rick Burten]

You should add they race them at 2 years of age here
Why would she need to do that when the article clearly states, "Mason and Bourke (1973) followed 74 Thoroughbreds during their two-year-old racing season "

[goeslikestink]

They are indeed machine made NZL but made here in Australia, i didn't posted them other then an example of the shape of the shoe i fit compared to NB shoes rick fits, "never claimed i made them" only shaped them & i use a lot of them because the nail hole are punched the same as a st croft concord Alum plate & i can buy a set of them cheaper than the steel to make them. Ps how many race horses do you plate Keven ?

says it all then doesnt it-- cheap machine ready made shoe-- that you bang into shape
which there fore hasnt been amde to fit the horse enother word you fit the horse to the shoe and not the other way round and i bet half the time you cold shoe

a decent farrier makes his shoes and buys his iron - metal,, whatever for each indidvual horse

here our farriers if new customer come out and measure the foot, if they have the shoe on board will shoe it if not comeback -- after they have made the shoe
they will forge the shoe-- in the oven and make minor adjustments to the shoe-- of which is held onto the foot and burnt line as a proper fitting shoe-- if you want stud holes will punch them out along with the nail holes and -- screw tap them-- for you -- so stud can be screwed in-- they then plug the hole with a rubber stub --
the clip part-- is chipped out ot cut out of the horn so when the shoes fitted its tapped dwon snug and tight into place be it fronts which normally have one clip and hinds have 2one either side this is so the horse has a well fitted shoe-- 7 nails are use to keep the shoe on underneath-- most people have these types of shoes in uk qas we have whats called road shoes or general purpose shoes -- for noraml joe bloggs neddy

only the cheaper farrier cold shoe and use machine ready made shoes which are then banged into place and beucase they ready made only come in certain sizes so shoe does not fit all horses-- hence why they fit the horse to the shoe-- and the shoe can be to small for the horse and not only in lenght but in width

so my learnings over the years as i will be honest as a child and a novice of horseownership which started when i went to wrok at 14-- over the years i have learnt that the best shoe is a hot one-- and one that can be fitted to the horse

[Rick Burten]

"slang" anyone who sits on the side line with an opinion on how its going to turn out ;)
Interesting that you used that term.........

Like I said, "Physician, heal thy self."

[goeslikestink]

Interesting that you used that term.........

Like I said, "Physician, heal thy self."

punter-- is a customer in english slang to not only one who bets---

[jack mac]

Jack,
I know the guy you're talking about. He lives near me and everything you say is true. In addition to that he's also a fine gentleman.
George His Irish American, i unfortunately mist out on having lunch with Jim & his wife when mustard flew them over, i was in NSW at the time couldn't attend,I would of been honored to of meet the man & his wife. funny you say that George they nicknamed him over here gentleman Jim;)

[matryoshka]

Back to the article...

Maybe I'm obtuse, but when the article refers to toes digging into a surface, I believe he was referring to the benefits of a giving surface where the foot is allowed to rotate before heel lift. This seems to benefit the horse. The only shoe that I've seen to recreate this effect on a hard surface would be the banana shoe.

The rocker on the toe would allow some extra rotation slightly before toe lift. Are you saying this is bad for a horse because it doesn't allow the toe to grab and push off?

From the article MECHANICS OF EQUINE LOCOMOTION by Hilary M. Clayton, BVMS, PhD, MRCVS: "Breakover begins when the heels leave the ground and start to rotate around the toe of the hoof, which is still in contact with the ground. Breakover is initiated by tension in the distal check ligament (DCL) acting through the deep digital flexor tendon (DDFT), combined with tension in the navicular ligaments. The initiation of breakover is an important part of the stride, especially in horses with caudal heel pain, since it is at this time that tension in the heel region is maximal." Bringing the toe back helps breakover start sooner, since elbow/shoulder don't have to be as far in front of the foot to initiate heel lift. This should help reduce the strain on the tendons, hopefully leading to fewer soft-tissue injuries.

I enjyed the article, especially where it talked about amplitude of the shock wave and how the application of a steel shoe increases the amplitued, as does working a horse on a hard surface. If I were reading this with a "barefoot only" bent, I'd draw conclusions to support how shoes are bad for feet and how boots could be a better option. I sure wish he'd measured how boots affect the shock wave. I also wish he'd collected data on endurance horses for comparison, especially since the shock wave also increases in amplitude when a horse is fatigued. Oh well.

Basically, it seems to me that you are trying to make the facts presented support your conclusions. I didn't draw the same conclusions upon reading it. And believe me, since I'm a supporter of bringing the breakover back, I was looking for signs that this could cause problems for the horse. I sure don't want to cause unsoundness because of the way I trim.

Jac Mac, I don't dismiss your claims out of hand simply because I don't like the way you present them. I actually think about it as I'm working and I've been observing for signs of what you've been cautioning us about. So far I haven't seen it. I'm highly critical of my own work and always looking for ways to improve both my work and the situation for the horse. If I see confirmation of your claims, I'll say so. BTW, I'm not a proponent of NB or any other type of shoeing, nor am I of the barefoot-only camp. I've used some of the things Gene teaches to improve my trimming. Just like I've used things from the farriers I rode with, the one who taught the class I took, farriers who post to horseshoes.com, and people who teach barefoot trimming.

[jack mac]

now i borrowed this pic from the farriers forum its one of Brian's pics, so i cant be accused of stacking the deck & this left side hind hoof looks pretty much in a natural state & in need off a trim, but it will serve the purpose have a look at the shape of this hoof & then having a look at the shape of the NB hind shoe Rick would fit & the shape of the hind shoe i would fit. you tell me remember that photo of that hoof is not mine so i couldn't of trimmed it to grow to that shape.
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/S6300606.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0561.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/hi-losyndrome016.jpg

[Rick Burten]

now i borrowed this pic from the farriers forum its one of Brian's pics, so i cant be accused of stacking the deck & this left side hind hoof looks pretty much in a natural state & in need off a trim, but it will serve the purpose have a look at the shape of this hoof & then having a look at the shape of the NB hind shoe Rick would fit & the shape of the hind shoe i would fit. you tell me remember that photo of that hoof is not mine so i couldn't of trimmed it to grow to that shape.
Problem is Jack, you yet again have drawn the erroneous conclusion that I shoe every horse the way I shod the one pictured. On the other hand, you have shown photos of how you say you shoe every horse. I'll leave it to the readers to draw their own conclusions. Further, you have absolutely no idea of what my horse's trimmed hind feet looked like, though you should have been able to draw some conclusions from looking at the photos of the trimmed front feet. Care to take a stab at it?

Ya' see Jack, unlike you, I shoe the horse according to its needs and use. Apparently you prefer the "cookie cutter approach" so in vogue with pretenders, iron hangers and other assorted individuals who either are incapable of advanced learning and independent thinking, or who learned everything they know about shoeing the first year they went into practice, and then have repeated that for however many more years they have shod horses.
(In case you are having trouble, here's a hint: Think of Einstein's definition of insanity.)

Based on your own words and photographs, Which group would you say the rest of us think you are part of? (damn I hate a dangling participle).

[Rick Burten]

Hey Jack,

Watcha' think about these two shoeing jobs?

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t15/BPethick_bucket/DSC00356.jpg

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t15/BPethick_bucket/DSC00369.jpg

Same foot, different farriers.

[jack mac]

Back to the article...

Maybe I'm obtuse, but when the article refers to toes digging into a surface, I believe he was referring to the benefits of a giving surface where the foot is allowed to rotate before heel lift. This seems to benefit the horse. The only shoe that I've seen to recreate this effect on a hard surface would be the banana shoe.

The rocker on the toe would allow some extra rotation slightly before toe lift. Are you saying this is bad for a horse because it doesn't allow the toe to grab and push off?

From the article MECHANICS OF EQUINE LOCOMOTION by Hilary M. Clayton, BVMS, PhD, MRCVS: "Breakover begins when the heels leave the ground and start to rotate around the toe of the hoof, which is still in contact with the ground. Breakover is initiated by tension in the distal check ligament (DCL) acting through the deep digital flexor tendon (DDFT), combined with tension in the navicular ligaments. The initiation of breakover is an important part of the stride, especially in horses with caudal heel pain, since it is at this time that tension in the heel region is maximal." Bringing the toe back helps breakover start sooner, since elbow/shoulder don't have to be as far in front of the foot to initiate heel lift. This should help reduce the strain on the tendons, hopefully leading to fewer soft-tissue injuries.

I enjyed the article, especially where it talked about amplitude of the shock wave and how the application of a steel shoe increases the amplitued, as does working a horse on a hard surface. If I were reading this with a "barefoot only" bent, I'd draw conclusions to support how shoes are bad for feet and how boots could be a better option. I sure wish he'd measured how boots affect the shock wave. I also wish he'd collected data on endurance horses for comparison, especially since the shock wave also increases in amplitude when a horse is fatigued. Oh well.

Basically, it seems to me that you are trying to make the facts presented support your conclusions. I didn't draw the same conclusions upon reading it. And believe me, since I'm a supporter of bringing the breakover back, I was looking for signs that this could cause problems for the horse. I sure don't want to cause unsoundness because of the way I trim.

Jac Mac, I don't dismiss your claims out of hand simply because I don't like the way you present them. I actually think about it as I'm working and I've been observing for signs of what you've been cautioning us about. So far I haven't seen it. I'm highly critical of my own work and always looking for ways to improve both my work and the situation for the horse. If I see confirmation of your claims, I'll say so. BTW, I'm not a proponent of NB or any other type of shoeing, nor am I of the barefoot-only camp. I've used some of the things Gene teaches to improve my trimming. Just like I've used things from the farriers I rode with, the one who taught the class I took, farriers who post to horseshoes.com, and people who teach barefoot trimming.They speak for them self impact is greatest when the heel first lands, the front limbs do rotate around the toe, the toe does prime the tendons & give an uplifting forward driving force in locomotion, stride is affected if you shorten up the toe, what you should be asking you self, does shortening up toes & place shoes & heels to far back under the hoof cause less impact OR more & damage the limb structure considering impact & force is greatest when the heels first come in to contact with the ground ? like i have stated before true balance is not to short a leaver not to long a lever but the right lever, NB is to short a lever & detrimental not only to the function of the feet but the "whole functioning limb".

[Rick Burten]

They speak for them self impact is greatest when the heel first lands, the front limbs do rotate around the toe,
How about the hinds?

And, did you somehow miss this ?
"........The initiation of breakover is an important part of the stride, especially in horses with caudal heel pain, since it is at this time that tension in the heel region is maximal." [quote]
[quote=Matryoshka]
Bringing the toe back helps breakover start sooner, since elbow/shoulder don't have to be as far in front of the foot to initiate heel lift. This should help reduce the strain on the tendons, hopefully leading to fewer soft-tissue injuries.
the toe does prime the tendons & give an uplifting forward driving force in locomotion,
Under what circumstances? Certainly, it is well established fact that at some/most(?) gaits, once forward motion is established, all the front legs do is keep the horse's nose out of the dirt.
stride is affected if you shorten up the toe,
Under what circumstances?
what you should be asking you self, does shortening up toes & place shoes & heels to far back under the hoof cause less impact OR more & damage the limb structure considering impact & force is greatest when the heels first come in to contact with the ground ?
By now, even you should know that the operant factor is "It Depends"
NB is to short a lever & detrimental not only to the function of the feet but the "whole functioning limb".
Remember lesson #1? To refresh your memory, "It Depends".

However, were we we to suspend reality for a moment and accept your hypothesis, how do you explain the use of half-round shoes, rolled toes, rocker toes, blunt toes, square toes, etc, ad naseum?

And, are you or are you not going to comment on the photos I posted for your evaluation , if not critique? A simple "yes" or "No" accompanied by a time reference will suffice for now.

In case you can't find those photo links, here they are again:

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...t/DSC00356.jpg

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t...t/DSC00369.jpg

[jack mac]

[QUOTE=jack mac;2960867]now i borrowed this pic from the farriers forum its one of Brian's pics, so i cant be accused of stacking the deck & this left side hind hoof looks pretty much in a natural state & in need off a trim, but it will serve the purpose have a look at the shape of this hoof & then having a look at the shape of the NB hind shoe Rick would fit & the shape of the hind shoe i would fit. you tell me remember that photo of that hoof is not mine so i couldn't of trimmed it to grow to that shape.
Problem is Jack, you yet again have drawn the erroneous conclusion that I shoe every horse the way I shod the one pictured. On the other hand, you have shown photos of how you say you shoe every horse. I'll leave it to the readers to draw their own conclusions. Further, you have absolutely no idea of what my horse's trimmed hind feet looked like, though you should have been able to draw some conclusions from looking at the photos of the trimmed front feet. Care to take a stab at it?

Ya' see Jack, unlike you, I shoe the horse according to its needs and use. Apparently you prefer the "cookie cutter approach" so in vogue with pretenders, iron hangers and other assorted individuals who either are incapable of advanced learning and independent thinking, or who learned everything they know about shoeing the first year they went into practice, and then have repeated that for however many more years they have shod horses.
(In case you are having trouble, here's a hint: Think of Einstein's definition of insanity.)

Based on your own words and photographs, Which group would you say the rest of us think you are part of? (damn I hate a dangling participle).for the record i have no problem with any one who has partaken in a appropriate recognised course in trimming & trims a horse properly for the purpose it serving & knows & understands its practical limitations in its application in a working horse or those with defects that can only be addressed by shoeing, Tomas 1 springs to mind, i do have a problem with those who are not trained or trained properly,& those who cling to continually trimming a horse when its blatantly obvious the horse needs to be shod to avoid pain suffering & injury to perform to the best of its ability, so whats your point Rick.

[jack mac]

[QUOTE=jack mac;2960867]now i borrowed this pic from the farriers forum its one of Brian's pics, so i cant be accused of stacking the deck & this left side hind hoof looks pretty much in a natural state & in need off a trim, but it will serve the purpose have a look at the shape of this hoof & then having a look at the shape of the NB hind shoe Rick would fit & the shape of the hind shoe i would fit. you tell me remember that photo of that hoof is not mine so i couldn't of trimmed it to grow to that shape.
Problem is Jack, you yet again have drawn the erroneous conclusion that I shoe every horse the way I shod the one pictured. On the other hand, you have shown photos of how you say you shoe every horse. I'll leave it to the readers to draw their own conclusions. Further, you have absolutely no idea of what my horse's trimmed hind feet looked like, though you should have been able to draw some conclusions from looking at the photos of the trimmed front feet. Care to take a stab at it?

Ya' see Jack, unlike you, I shoe the horse according to its needs and use. Apparently you prefer the "cookie cutter approach" so in vogue with pretenders, iron hangers and other assorted individuals who either are incapable of advanced learning and independent thinking, or who learned everything they know about shoeing the first year they went into practice, and then have repeated that for however many more years they have shod horses.
(In case you are having trouble, here's a hint: Think of Einstein's definition of insanity.)

Based on your own words and photographs, Which group would you say the rest of us think you are part of? (damn I hate a dangling participle).for the record i have no problem with anyone who has partaken in a appropriate recognised course in trimming & trims a horse properly for the purpose it serving & knows & understands its practical limitations in its application in a working horse or those with defects that can only be addressed by shoeing, Tomas 1 springs to mind, i do have a problem with those who are not trained or trained properly,& those who cling to continually trimming a horse when its blatantly obvious the horse needs to be shod to avoid pain suffering & injury to perform to the best of its ability, so whats your point Rick.

[Rick Burten]

for the record i have no problem with anyone who has partaken in a appropriate recognised course in trimming & trims a horse properly for the purpose it serving & knows & understands its practical limitations in its application in a working horse or those with defects that can only be addressed by shoeing,
Hoist by your own petard!

I and many others have indeed "partaken in a appropriate recognised course in trimming........" yet you continue to denigrate, denounce , disrespect that which we do, even though it meets your stated qualifications. To wit: The NB trimming and shoeing certification course.

Jack, you remind me of and are much akin to the religious zealot who loudly proclaims his love of/for Jesus and in the same breath utters pure unadulterated anti-semetic vitriol.
so whats your point Rick.
If by now you have not gotten my point from this or other posts, then you are far to obtuse for me to ever hope to reach with cogent discourse.

[The Prince]

Perhaps if every member of COTH put darling jack on the 'ignore' list all of this nonsense would go away?

Ignore who? all I see is a post by LMH and one by Chocomare ;)

[jack mac]

Hoist by your own petard!

I and many others have indeed "partaken in a appropriate recognised course in trimming........" yet you continue to denigrate, denounce , disrespect that which we do, even though it meets your stated qualifications. To wit: The NB trimming and shoeing certification course.

Jack, you remind me of and are much akin to the religious zealot who loudly proclaims his love of/for Jesus and in the same breath utters pure unadulterated anti-semetic vitriol.

If by now you have not gotten my point from this or other posts, then you are far to obtuse for me to ever hope to reach with cogent discourse.I'm a pagan Rick you know that, so leave the religion out of it or are you try to provoke me in to getting kicked of this forum ? ill ask that your comments be taken in to consideration by the moderator if i lose my cool with you soon, stick to the topic Rick http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6512

[rmh]

Whoa! There are four pages of posts. Four pages of similar drivel. This could be such a great place to learn. Personalties (egos?) get in the way. Some of the questions proposed would be great discussion. There is a thread about trimming with some pictures. For the most part there has been some good replies. It would be great if more people, farriers and trimmers, h**l even rank amateurs, would post cases and have some intelligent conversations.Not all is lost, This is entertaining:lol:.

[Appassionato]

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6512

While that may be an NB shoe, that is not NB protocol.

[jack mac]

While that may be an NB shoe, that is not NB protocol. NO ? then how would you fit a NB shoe to this foot & getting it to fit with out Jamming it up ? & why would it need more break over then a perimeter shoe fitted with a properly seated clip to maintain proper limb function & break over? I'm all ears to here the pitch give on the protocol for this hoof
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/11-04-07003.jpg

[Appassionato]

NO ? then how would you fit a NB shoe to this foot & getting it to fit with out Jamming it up ? & why would it need more break over then a perimeter shoe fitted with a properly seated clip to maintain proper limb function & break over? I'm all ears to here the pitch give on the protocol for this hoof
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/11-04-07003.jpg

It was never answered on the thread? Perhaps a farrier educated in NB can help you learn the technique, as well as explain why there is more to shoeing than perimeter-fitting. :winkgrin:

[Dune]

I think that the farrier I mentioned in my first post had a very similar way of thinking/shoeing to jackmac. He really believed in leaving the toe for "purchase" and fitting them full but close in the back. He made his own shoes, though. There were quite a few farriers that did NOT agree with him but I have to tell y'all that he got that particular horse going and sound for a few years when no one else could. Everyone else just butchered the feet and chopped off his toe saying the horse needed better breakover when actually he needed his freakin' toe! :yes: I should also add that this farrier had several barns of FEI dressage horses that he kept sound, it wasn't just mine. But again, jackmac, your writing style is hardly helping and I think if you're going to post pix of other farriers' work, you need to cough it up and post some of yours. Otherwise, I'm close to losing my objectivity about you. :winkgrin: I realize your frustration but you're on the edge of just not making any sense at times. :no:

[JHUshoer20]

Sounds like you had a good man Dune:)
George

[Dune]

Sounds like you had a good man Dune:)
George


I did, I really liked him a lot. He was fabulous and I wish there were more just like him.:cool:

[jack mac]

I think that the farrier I mentioned in my first post had a very similar way of thinking/shoeing to jackmac. He really believed in leaving the toe for "purchase" and fitting them full but close in the back. He made his own shoes, though. There were quite a few farriers that did NOT agree with him but I have to tell y'all that he got that particular horse going and sound for a few years when no one else could. Everyone else just butchered the feet and chopped off his toe saying the horse needed better breakover when actually he needed his freakin' toe! :yes: I should also add that this farrier had several barns of FEI dressage horses that he kept sound, it wasn't just mine. But again, jackmac, your writing style is hardly helping and I think if you're going to post pix of other farriers' work, you need to cough it up and post some of yours. Otherwise, I'm close to losing my objectivity about you. :winkgrin: I realize your frustration but you're on the edge of just not making any sense at times. :no:I was supposed to shoe a couple gallopers coming back in to work today & post them for tricky Ricky, but i got sidetracked & yes i do make my own shoes when those who want to pay me for the extra time & effort it takes do, or when it tickles my fancy say round spring carnival cup time & those in the know are cashed up ;) so here is some picks of what side tracked me, & some times you have to get your priorities right in life, even if it costs you a buck every now & then , i can show you theses because this person got of with a warning this time, anther !/2 an inch & i mightn't of be so sympathetic .:yes:
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0593.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0594.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0595.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0598.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0596.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0599.jpg
& yer i know my literary skill suck big time tell me something i don't already know lol:winkgrin:

[JHUshoer20]

Nice work Jack.

I see neglect can be a worldwide problem;):yes:
George

[jack mac]

It was never answered on the thread? Perhaps a farrier educated in NB can help you learn the technique, as well as explain why there is more to shoeing than perimeter-fitting. :winkgrin: i think your friend Jay was pretty clear including George Geist & Tomas 1, THE SHOE WAS TO SMALL, you see that's the problem with NB protocole dogma, you just keep applying break over even if it doesnt need it, till eventually the horse goes lame or you run out of a shoes size small enough to nail on to that stump you have created, how hard is that to under stand. :sadsmile:

[jack mac]

Nice work Jack.

I see neglect can be a worldwide problem;):yes:
GeorgeI can show you today's work because this person is not being prosecuted for neglect, as i had some compassion for her today, she is anther trained in bare foot trimming with one of those i day courses & got way out of her depth as usual, she has promised me she will use a registered trade accredited farrier from know on :) PS & I'm not kind to people who don't live up to there promises when it comes to animals ;)

[JB]

i think your friend Jay was pretty clear including George Geist & Tomas 1, THE SHOE WAS TO SMALL, you see that's the problem with NB protocole dogma, you just keep applying break over even if it doesnt need it, till eventually the horse goes lame or you run out of a shoes size small enough to nail on to that stump you have created, how hard is that to under stand. :sadsmile:

So, what's your point? It was a POOR application of the shoeing protocol to say the least, and maybe even of the trimming protocol too - can't tell.

You're not any better than any of the folks who claim all Western Pleasure trainers suck because some of them tie their horse's heads to the rafters so they'll be too tired/sore to hold them too high in a class.

You can apparently do a bit of a trim job, but all your ranting and raving is about shoeing - where are your shoe jobs? I think it's funny that you only pull out poor applications of such-and-such to try to lend credence to your "point". Lots of people can point out poor applications of any number of things.

[J Swan]

i think your friend Jay was pretty clear including George Geist & Tomas 1, THE SHOE WAS TO SMALL, you see that's the problem with NB protocole dogma, you just keep applying break over even if it doesnt need it, till eventually the horse goes lame or you run out of a shoes size small enough to nail on to that stump you have created, how hard is that to under stand. :sadsmile:

That doesn't sound to me like the method is bad. Sounds to me like the person trimming a horse that badly shouldn't be a farrier.

Any method of trimming, improperly or incompetently done, can result in temporary or permanent lameness. With or without shoes.

I'm still not quite sure what the problem is.

[Rick Burten]

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0598.jpg

That your idea of a balanced foot? Really? Well, your lateral wall, especially from the quarters to the heel is taller/longer than the medial side. Plays hell with the joints when the horse has to load a foot like that.

How come you didn't bevel that toe a bit more. You left a lot of the stretched laminae out there where it is going to be subjected to collection of a lot of environmental debris and pathogens. Classic situation for the advent of seedy toe.

[Rick Burten]

I'm a pagan Rick you know that, so leave the religion out of it or are you try to provoke me in to getting kicked of this forum ?
Nah, I like having you around. You are the perfect example of what a farrier should never aspire to be. And if you can't understand the analogy, then thats just too bad. And though you might like it better if I didn't use those kinds of analogies, fortunately for all of us, you don't get to tell me or anyone else what to do.
ill ask that your comments be taken in to consideration by the moderator if i lose my cool with you soon,
I am soooo worried and scared. Please, Please Please do lose you cool with me.
stick to the topic Rick http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6512
OK Jack. You do the same. Start by responding to the various and sundry questions and situations I and others have posed for you on this thread.

Now, to specifics. In the referenced photo and thread, if you had bothered to read it, everyone, NB Shoers and non-NB shoers alike, was in agreement that this was an example of someone who did not know how to correctly apply the protocols. So what's your point? Wouldn't matter what the style of shoe was. Incorrect is incorrect and trying to use a photo such as that to support your position, is much akin to what the BUA does when it posts "worst case scenarios" of shoeing to substantiate their position. F. Strasser and her acolytes are masters at this deception, and now, you have joined that select cadre.

[Appassionato]

i think your friend Jay was pretty clear including George Geist & Tomas 1, THE SHOE WAS TO SMALL

Yes, that was clear. And the correct spellings are "Jaye" and "Thomas".

you see that's the problem with NB protocole dogma, you just keep applying break over even if it doesnt need it, till eventually the horse goes lame or you run out of a shoes size small enough to nail on to that stump you have created, how hard is that to under stand. :sadsmile:

I don't believe that is the NB protocol, but rather a mistaken opinion of it. Poor farriery, regardless of the shoe used, is poor farriery.

[Rick Burten]

NO ? then how would you fit a NB shoe to this foot & getting it to fit with out Jamming it up ?
OK, I'll play. First, the foot needs some more rasp work. The heels are too high and there is toe flare evident. Once that is attended to, the foot is just about in 50/50 balance (though I would prefer 40/60, the 50/50 is acceptable so long as the horse is landing either flat or, preferably, slightly heel first) as measured from the COA forward to the horse's natural breakover point, and rearward to the widest part of the frog. Now, there are a few shoeing options. A perimeter fit shoe with a rolled toe, a perimeter fit shoe with a rocker toe, a perimeter fit concave steel shoe with the toe knit closed, a Natural Balance shoe forged to fit close to the toe perimeter. In each instance, the heels of the shoe would come back to the widest part of the frog and perhaps a bit more, depending.
& why would it need more break over then a perimeter shoe fitted with a properly seated clip to maintain proper limb function & break over?
Perhaps because the toe clip on a flat shoe extends the location of breakover improperly forward? Now, If you're going to put that toe clip on any of the shoes I above mentioned, save perhaps the NB shoe, you'll be on the right track. But why would I need a toe clip on a rocker toe shoe in the first place? In fact, why would I need a toe clip at all? And, how is a toe clip going to help, as you state, "maintain proper limb function & breakover"? Personally, I think toe clips are greatly overrated and in most instances, totally unnecessary.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/11-04-07003.jpg

[matryoshka]

They speak for them self impact is greatest when the heel first lands, the front limbs do rotate around the toe, the toe does prime the tendons & give an uplifting forward driving force in locomotion, stride is affected if you shorten up the toe, what you should be asking you self, does shortening up toes & place shoes & heels to far back under the hoof cause less impact OR more & damage the limb structure considering impact & force is greatest when the heels first come in to contact with the ground ? like i have stated before true balance is not to short a leaver not to long a lever but the right lever, NB is to short a lever & detrimental not only to the function of the feet but the "whole functioning limb".Ummm. Facts never speak for themselves. They are defined in logic as "something that can be proven or disproven," but in common speach, the use of the word fact usually implies "true fact." Nobody has argued with what the article says, so for the purposes of argument, can we accept the article as true?

While the article does say the greatest concussion occurs with the impact of the heel, it does not say that they measured the effect of heel length (or how far back the point of the heel is in relation to the center of the fetlock joint) on the shock wave. So you cannot draw conclusions on that from the article iteself. You can try to extrapolate from that, but since it wasn't measured, it is conjecture on your or anybody's part.

The article does not mention the importance of toe purchase on the limb springing up or its effect on the tendons and ligaments. Didn't they measure strain during the test? I think so. Strain was also not discussed in relation to toe length.

In my opinion, the article neither proves nor disproves the benefits or harm of the NB protocol, nor does it have anything to do with toe length or how far the heels of the shoe extent back. Any arguments about that are conjecture based upon the experience of those posting (unless other studies are referenced). Please quote the parts that support either claim, so I know where I might be missing what you are seeing.

My ideas about the importance of easing the breakover and making sure it is at the right point come from Dr. Rooney's Equine lameness book and my experience seeing soft-tissue damage in racehorses coming into lay-up and the shoeing jobs they had been subjected to. The latter part is my own opinion based on what I've seen and the conclusions I've drawn from it. It is not a study, nor is it meant to say that all race horses are shod poorly. It's just that I've seen lots of bowed tendons on horses with overly long toes. I've also seen reasonably sound horses with overly long toes. I just haven't seen a horse come in with a bowed tendon when it had the breakover in the correct spot.

I rarely, if ever, see horses who have been shod or trimmed with the toe too far back. I've seen them trimmed with the toe too short (as in sole removed from under the coffin bone). So it is hard for me to understand your crusade against toes that have been backed up to the correct breakover without removing sole. I'm puzzled by it. Do you think that Gene's guideline of the breakover being about one inch in front of the true apex of the frog is too short? If so, that would be a point to argue that would interest me, since this is the guideline I use for determining where I'd eventually like to see the breakover.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the rule of thumb for the heel length while shoeing is to have the back of the heel directly under the center of the feltock joint? I seem to remember reading this in a book on remedial farriery for all sorts of shoeing problems. One of the author's biggest complaints was that heels are often left too far forward when shoes are applied. Sorry, I can't remember the name of the book. If I could remember the name, I'd order the darn book for the Equihab lending library.

[Rick Burten]

Do you think that Gene's guideline of the breakover being about one inch in front of the true apex of the frog is too short?
Just as a point of clarification. On horses with feet 00 - 2 shoe size, NB protocols say that the location of the distal leading edge of p3 can be found at a point 1 inch in front of the true apex of the frog. Feet that are larger or smaller should have that number adjusted proportionally. The desired breakover location is found 1/4 inch in front of the location of the distal leading edge of p3 and will correspond with a line drawn across the hoof from medial toe pillar to lateral toe pillar. When dealing with certain pathologies of the hoof, other factors may
influence where the breakover is placed.

Hope that helps.

[matryoshka]

Thanks Rick. I use it as a rough guideline and adjust it based on what I see on the horse. I don't want to misrepresent the NB protocol based on my limited understanding of it. :D That 1/4" is important.

[JB]

On horses with feet 00 - 2 shoe size, NB protocols say that the location of the distal leading edge of p3 can be found at a point 1 inch in front of the true apex of the frog. Feet that are larger or smaller should have that number adjusted proportionally.
Can you list what the actual hoof measurements are for these sizes? I think many trimmers don't know how shoe sizes correspond :uhoh::o :)

[Dune]

I was supposed to shoe a couple gallopers coming back in to work today & post them for tricky Ricky, but i got sidetracked & yes i do make my own shoes when those who want to pay me for the extra time & effort it takes do, or when it tickles my fancy say round spring carnival cup time & those in the know are cashed up ;) so here is some picks of what side tracked me, & some times you have to get your priorities right in life, even if it costs you a buck every now & then , i can show you theses because this person got of with a warning this time, anther !/2 an inch & i mightn't of be so sympathetic .:yes:
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0593.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0594.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0595.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0598.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0596.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0599.jpg
& yer i know my literary skill suck big time tell me something i don't already know lol:winkgrin:

Hey you toned it down and now I can understand you perfectly. It was the "passion" getting in the way I think. Now maybe we can all get somewhere, even if everyone cannot agree. :)

[Dune]

Just as a point of clarification. On horses with feet 00 - 2 shoe size, NB protocols say that the location of the distal leading edge of p3 can be found at a point 1 inch in front of the true apex of the frog. Feet that are larger or smaller should have that number adjusted proportionally. The desired breakover location is found 1/4 inch in front of the location of the distal leading edge of p3 and will correspond with a line drawn across the hoof from medial toe pillar to lateral toe pillar. When dealing with certain pathologies of the hoof, other factors may
influence where the breakover is placed.



I'm glad that you made this statement, and I put it in bold, hope you don't mind. This is the point that, in my experience, the folks I've seen trying to follow the NB protocol don't get and it's HUGE! :yes:

[matryoshka]

Hey Dune,

Is there any chance you can post pics of your horse's feet? I'd be interested to see the NB shoeing that didn't work, and what did work for your horse.

[Dune]

Hey Dune,

Is there any chance you can post pics of your horse's feet? I'd be interested to see the NB shoeing that didn't work, and what did work for your horse.


I wish that I did! This was a horse that I had about 3 years ago ago and I have lots of pix, actually more video of us showing/clinics, but no pix of his feet. I remember that I was working with a gal that was trying to chart his progress and we did take a LOT of pictures and even x-rays, but I wouldn't even pretend to know where they are right now. Besides with what they did to this horse, I wouldn't even be willing to phone them up to see if by chance they still had them. They butchered this horse so badly at one point he could hardly walk. I just remembered that my old 4th level horse came to me with these shoes on too and some sort of rockered toe and pads, at the time they were very odd looking to me because this was before the craze took off. This was quite a while before my last horse, hence the memory loss, but we ripped those shoes off so fast it would make your head spin and put him in "regular" shoes no pads and he was sound/winning at 4th level, schooling PSG when I sold him 2 years later. :yes: The whole NB thing has not impressed me, but I'm still open minded enough to listen, I just don't see horses in my "world" (for lack of a better term) in them and doing well. Sorry, it sounds good in theory but I haven't seen it work, maybe I've just always seen bad examples. :confused:

[NRB]

Hey Dune, unfortunatley there are bad farriers out there. Some are NB farrier, some are traditional farriers, some are barefoot trimmers. Then there are good farriers out there, good NB farriers, good trimmers and etc. Seems you had a bad experience w/ a NB farrier and a good experience w/ a traditional farrier. I had the reveres. I had a bad experience with a traditional farrier and a great experience w/ a farrier who is trained and listed as a NB farrier BUT does NOT call himself a NB farrier. He just does what's right for each individual horse, for some that means a NB style shoe that he forges himself and for others that may mean a traditional keg shoe, or a St Croix Eventer or what ever else he's got on his truck or up his sleeve (ie hand forges himself) . He WILL NOT slap a NB shoe on every horse. And he does shoe horses that compeate at the top of my sport, ie he had one client run her horse at the Rolex 4star last spring. I do agree that anyone who says that ONE way is the right way and all others have no validity period is a person to be avoided at all costs.

But anyway my NB trained farrier saved my horses life by using NB style shoes. That is the exact phrase that a non NB trained farrier said when she viewed the series of photos I have on my horses feet. She's my friends farrier, and just a third party observer...so she has no dog in my fight so to speak.

FWIW the trad farrier let the toe get wayyyyyy tooo looong. The heels were pretty well crushed, underrun and non-exsistant. Now (2yrs later) the horse has heel. I'd post pics only IF I could be assured that folks aren't going to pick my farrier to pieces over his shoeing job. Since he's NOT here and can't explain his reasons for doing what he did. But since I know how this BB works, I'd be reluctant to do that.

I think that we want the best care possible for our horses feet. Sometimes the best farrier is the guy who comes to your barn, sometimes it's the guy you haul an hour to, sometimes there just aren't any good people about and you have to pull shoes and teach yourself to trim and go barefoot. (I know people who have felt forced to do just that) I'm not sure where I'm going with this other than the fact that the guy who fixed my horses feet happened to be trained (but Not exclusively) in NB methods. It could have been the other way around. I guess my point is a good farrier is a good farrier, period.



and as a total aside, Jack Mac I can NEVER understand what you are saying b/c your communication style is so cryptic.

[Katy Watts]

I'm glad that you made this statement, and I put it in bold, hope you don't mind. This is the point that, in my experience, the folks I've seen trying to follow the NB protocol don't get and it's HUGE! :yes:

Gene realizes that. Which is why he has come up with a new method for mapping distorted feet. He has a knack for looking at the 'real' foot inside the distorted one, but its hard to teach something intuitive. You have to shoe for the foot you want, not the foot you got now. So he's come up with a method for quantifiying and calipers that allow those without the long term experience to acheive better results. I haul up there when he is doing a theraputic certification clinic and get my 2 foundered mares done for materials. They have very - interesting - feet. Took 5 hours last time with all the measureing and drawing and lecturing. My old mares feet fun forward terribly, and her shoes have to be set WAAAY back. But then when Chris Pollitt saw my horses radiographs and heard their story, he said he would have told me to put them down. So we must be doing something right. Both Chris and Don Walsh of the Animal Health Foundation (funds laminitis research for us both) think highly of NB and EDSS for foundered horses.

[JB]

I'd post pics only IF I could be assured that folks aren't going to pick my farrier to pieces over his shoeing job. Since he's NOT here and can't explain his reasons for doing what he did. But since I know how this BB works, I'd be reluctant to do that.

I would love to see the pictures via in a PM if you're willing - no critique on my part, just great interest given your post :)

sometimes there just aren't any good people about and you have to pull shoes and teach yourself to trim and go barefoot. (I know people who have felt forced to do just that)
*raises hand*

[Rick Burten]

Can you list what the actual hoof measurements are for these sizes? I think many trimmers don't know how shoe sizes correspond :uhoh::o :)
I can give you approximates but they should be close enough to serve well.

A= hoof width at the widest part of the hoof(the "X" axis), as measured from medial to lateral or lateral to medial sides of the hoof.

B= hoof length from toe to widest part of the frog, line drawn through the middle of the frog
(the "Y" axis)

00: A= 4 3/8 inches; B= 4 3/4 inches
0: A= 4 5/8 inches; B= 5 inches
1: A= 4 7/8 inches; B= 5 1/4 inches
2: A= 5 1/4 inches; B= 5 5/8 inches

Remember that if a hoof is very overgrown your pre-trim measurments are quite likely to be different from your post-trim measurment.

[Rick Burten]

I'm glad that you made this statement, and I put it in bold, hope you don't mind.
Don't mind in the least
This is the point that, in my experience, the folks I've seen trying to follow the NB protocol don't get and it's HUGE! :yes:
Well, if those folks have attended either a couple of workshops/clinics or are certified in the protocols, then that shouldn't be happening. What I do see happening quite a lot is that someone who never attended a clinic or certification, or maybe attended a one day clinic, thinks they understand completely, the protocols. In point of fact, probably, they don't. But they go out and tell people they are practiced and well versed in the protocols and then go and screw the job up. For which, the protocols and/or the shoes, get the blame.

If you go to: http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/techsupport/search/farrier/enterfsearch.html

you will find a list of farriers who are either NB certified or have attended several clinics, etc. The link will take you to the "conditions" page. Read it so you understand what its about, click "Accept" and you will be taken to the Farrier Locator page.

Doing this, allows you to check and see, regardless of any claims made by your farrier, what his/her NB status is.

[jack mac]

That your idea of a balanced foot? Really? Well, your lateral wall, especially from the quarters to the heel is taller/longer than the medial side. Plays hell with the joints when the horse has to load a foot like that.

How come you didn't bevel that toe a bit more. You left a lot of the stretched laminae out there where it is going to be subjected to collection of a lot of environmental debris and pathogens. Classic situation for the advent of seedy toe. The pony in question is a miniature it has had laminitis founder in its life time, it know suffers from cushings & you want to tell me about trimming feet unlike you rick i want the horse to be able to walk with out being chronically lame afterwards , i think that is the goal, & you really should get your self better trained because no amount of pairing seedy toe back to the quick will get rid of it permanently, & only fools try to, it can only be maintained, because only horses that have had laminitis or cushings get true seedy toe, its excess laminar & is different from a separation in the wall PS The feet were disinfected & a topic of Stockholm tar applied afterwoulds pretty messy stuff & something you don't wont round your camera .:)

[grayarabs]

Jack - thinking about your photos. Agree you did the right thing taking care of the pony.
The first photo - does not represent in any way a horse that has been trimmed over time by a barefooter - for example - Ramey style. Is the owner the trimmer?
One of the photos - side shot - RF looks laminitic.
I question why you took off so much of the toe/sole from underneath. That was a very aggressive trim!!! Did the pony walk off ok - is still ok? I note one of the photos - finished? - that you did back up the toe.
You show the main difference between the two "barefoot styles".
The "barefooters" (will use Ramey as he is best known) - would not lower the toe area (sole) in front - would not trim deeply into the sole and expose what/like you did. "We" would have backed up the toe - and perhaps rasped the toe wall if necessary. We believe
that the sole should not be touched - as protection for the coffin bone - plus after so much sole removal - many horses are lame for days after their trim. We lower the walls - and allow the horse to exfoliate the sole on their own.
Again - I appreciate your passion. I am not a NB fan. I am a barefooter. I trim.
I have to wonder - if I met you in person - would you scare the daylights out of me - have me running for the hills? Or are you really a nice guy? I know you love horses - so I always give you the benefit of the doubt.

[Rick Burten]

The pony in question is a miniature it has had laminitis founder in its life time, it know suffers from cushings & you want to tell me about trimming feet
Well, somebody sure needs to.
unlike you rick i want the horse to be able to walk with out being chronically lame afterwards
Maybe if you did the job correctly, he would.
i think that is the goal, & you really should get your self better trained because no amount of pairing seedy toe back to the quick will get rid of it permanently,
Never said that removing disinterdigitated laminae would permanently end the pathology. Merely said that by leaving that disinterdigitated laminae, you set the horse up for more/on-going problems. And, it doesn't take much to get that area up out of the way.
& only fools try to,
You should know.
it can only be maintained, because only horses that have had laminitis or cushings get true seedy toe, its excess laminar & is different from a separation in the wall
How about horses that founder, suffer from LTLH syndrome, or club footed horses?

Folks in my end of the sandbox don't try to maintain seedy toe, they try to remediate it. And absent the presence of infection, how pray tell is it different?

Here follows but one of thousands of explanations(all of which are in basic agreement) about Seedy Toe.

"What is seedy toe?

Seedy toe is a separation of the horse’s hoof wall from the underlying sensitive laminae at the white line, resulting in a cavity which fills with crumbling dirt, horn and debris and is prone to associated infection.

"What causes seedy toe?

It can occur as a complication of chronic laminitis with rotation and sinking of the pedal bone (P3 or distal phalanx), followed by secondary infection. It can also occur in non-laminitic feet with long toe/low heel conformation, where the hoof wall separation and subsequent infection are the primary features. It may also occur in feet with poor dorso-palmar (front to back) balance and as a sequel to 'club foot' and may be predisposed by poor quality hoof horn.

Infection with anaerobic bacteria and yeasts, which are common hoof contaminants and an important feature in all forms of seedy toe, can liquefy hoof keratin, separating the sensitive laminae, progressing to rotation of the pedal bone as in laminitis.........

How is seedy toe treated?

The separated and necrotic infected horn should be removed by your farrier or veterinary surgeon with a hoof knife, establishing drainage and exposing the infected tissues to air, discouraging growth of anaerobic bacteria. The edges of the normal horn should be tapered to prevent the collection of infected dirt and debris. Antiseptics and astringents, e.g. dilute povidone iodine or antibiotic wound spray are applied to the cleaned, raw tissues and the horse should be treated with antibiotics, active against both aerobic and anaerobic bacterial infections, if the deeper tissues of the foot are involved.

Tetanus antitoxin must be given, if the horse is not fully vaccinated up-to-date or if vaccination status cannot be confirmed.

Afterwards, the horse should be stabled in clean, dry conditions while the hoof wound is regularly cleaned and treated until the infection is controlled and the tissues heal. "
(http://www.liphookequinehosp.co.uk/llseedytoe.htm)
PS The feet were disinfected & a topic of Stockholm tar applied afterwoulds pretty messy stuff & something you don't wont round your camera .:)
Well Golleeeee Gomer Pyle. Why didn't you just say so in the first place?

[jack mac]

instead of me answering every individual questions, seen as you all have trouble with my grammar & spelling & vocabulary, ill try & make it simple for me & yous, Rick says with proper NB you have to map out break over by finding the true apex of the frog this is so absurd & unreliable as a method to calculate break over in any hoof simple because frogs are constantly growing & shedding them self due to all types of conditions all year round & it is unwise to continual par a frog to find this so called true apex, the frog plays many important rolls in the health of the hoof some of theses are to disperse shock to the foot by allowing the heels to expand & contract as well as equalizing the pressure to the both heels, it protects the pedal bone & it all so controls the moisture content of the wall & the sole dry the frog out the sole & horn will harden & become brittle, moisten a frog & the wall & sole will soften, so it is imperative to a healthy hoof to have a healthy frog, so it can regulate it self to its environment & conditions its subjected to, one of the worst thing one can do is to be constantly paring it in search of this unreliable apex.:)

[goeslikestink]

I was supposed to shoe a couple gallopers coming back in to work today & post them for tricky Ricky, but i got sidetracked & yes i do make my own shoes when those who want to pay me for the extra time & effort it takes do, or when it tickles my fancy say round spring carnival cup time & those in the know are cashed up ;) so here is some picks of what side tracked me, & some times you have to get your priorities right in life, even if it costs you a buck every now & then , i can show you theses because this person got of with a warning this time, anther !/2 an inch & i mightn't of be so sympathetic .:yes:
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0593.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0594.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0595.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0598.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0596.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0599.jpg
& yer i know my literary skill suck big time tell me something i don't already know lol:winkgrin:

ok the pony had laminutus issues --

[Rick Burten]

nstead of me answering every individual questions, seen as you all have trouble with my grammar & spelling & vocabulary, ill try & make it simple for me & yous,
Regardless of your grammar, spelling and vocabulary, the questions posed are quite straight forward and should be easy for a man of your gifted education to answer. So, how about it? Answer the questions and respond to the comments regarding the hoof you asked me to comment on(not the mini's, the other one). Or has a Tasmanian Devil got your tongue?
Rick says with proper NB you have to map out break over by finding the true apex of the frog this is so absurd & unreliable as a method to calculate break over in any hoof simple because frogs are constantly growing & shedding them self due to all types of conditions all year round & it is unwise to continual par a frog to find this so called true apex,]
Ummm Jack, I'm not talking about trimming the entire frog, and if you had actually read and understood the NB protocols, you would already know that and would spare yourself the humiliation and embarrassment of saying things that are demonstrably incorrect.

And locating the true apex of the frog is but one step in correctly identifying the landmarks in the foot that will give you a good picture of where the structures inside the hoof capsule are located.

What I am talking about, is gently removing a bit of the overgrown frog at the apex of the frog so that one can find the true apex. Do you even know what/where the true apex is located?

Oh, and Jack, When that frog does shed intact, at that precise moment, you'll know precisely where the true apex of the frog is located. And no matter how much the frog gets overgrown, the true apex will remain constant.

And by the way, this method has routinely proven to be a very accurate method of determining the COA and the location of the distal leading edge of p3 in a hoof that is not suffering pathology such as is present whenever p3 rotates out of its normal/correct/default orientation within the hoof capsule. There are both radiographic and dissection studies by the hundreds if not thousands that confirm that the true apex of the frog is in a constant location in the hoof.
..... dry the frog out the sole & horn will harden & become brittle, moisten a frog & the wall & sole will soften,
Care to share with us where/how this information was obtained?
one of the worst thing one can do is to be constantly paring it in search of this unreliable apex.:)
No one is saying to pare/trim the entire frog. Quite the contrary. Ony a tiny bit at the tip, to determine the true apex of the frog.

Sadly, the one thing that all this discourse has proven to me is the truth of the adage:

"If you think education is expensive, try ignorance."

[jack mac]

Well, somebody sure needs to.

Maybe if you did the job correctly, he would.

Never said that removing disinterdigitated laminae would permanently end the pathology. Merely said that by leaving that disinterdigitated laminae, you set the horse up for more/on-going problems. And, it doesn't take much to get that area up out of the way.

You should know.

How about horses that founder, suffer from LTLH syndrome, or club footed horses?

Folks in my end of the sandbox don't try to maintain seedy toe, they try to remediate it. And absent the presence of infection, how pray tell is it different?

Here follows but one of thousands of explanations(all of which are in basic agreement) about Seedy Toe.

"What is seedy toe?

Seedy toe is a separation of the horse’s hoof wall from the underlying sensitive laminae at the white line, resulting in a cavity which fills with crumbling dirt, horn and debris and is prone to associated infection.

"What causes seedy toe?

It can occur as a complication of chronic laminitis with rotation and sinking of the pedal bone (P3 or distal phalanx), followed by secondary infection. It can also occur in non-laminitic feet with long toe/low heel conformation, where the hoof wall separation and subsequent infection are the primary features. It may also occur in feet with poor dorso-palmar (front to back) balance and as a sequel to 'club foot' and may be predisposed by poor quality hoof horn.

Infection with anaerobic bacteria and yeasts, which are common hoof contaminants and an important feature in all forms of seedy toe, can liquefy hoof keratin, separating the sensitive laminae, progressing to rotation of the pedal bone as in laminitis.........

How is seedy toe treated?

The separated and necrotic infected horn should be removed by your farrier or veterinary surgeon with a hoof knife, establishing drainage and exposing the infected tissues to air, discouraging growth of anaerobic bacteria. The edges of the normal horn should be tapered to prevent the collection of infected dirt and debris. Antiseptics and astringents, e.g. dilute povidone iodine or antibiotic wound spray are applied to the cleaned, raw tissues and the horse should be treated with antibiotics, active against both aerobic and anaerobic bacterial infections, if the deeper tissues of the foot are involved.

Tetanus antitoxin must be given, if the horse is not fully vaccinated up-to-date or if vaccination status cannot be confirmed.

Afterwards, the horse should be stabled in clean, dry conditions while the hoof wound is regularly cleaned and treated until the infection is controlled and the tissues heal. "
(http://www.liphookequinehosp.co.uk/llseedytoe.htm)

Well Golleeeee Gomer Pyle. Why didn't you just say so in the first place?Your article is typical of the misunderstanding unfortunately with seedy toe, TRUE SEEDY TOE CAN NOT BE CURD only maintained your article makes the usual common mistake most do including your self by calling & naming to separate conditions one & the same when both cause & cure are not one & the same & the only thing they do have in common is secondary infection your article fails to distinguish between true seedy toe & a separation with a secondary infection which are two separate diagnosis & given the broad term seedy toe, if you care to take a good look at the pic again you will see there is no infection in the laminar so paring it back to blood serves no purpose other then creating a wound & giving an opening for infection to enter the hoof capsule do you really believe that to be a wise thing to do Rick ?

[Rick Burten]

Your article is typical of the misunderstanding unfortunately with seedy toe, TRUE SEEDY TOE CAN NOT BE CURD only maintained
Unbelievable. Why pray tell can true seedy toe not be cured? Not by any stretch of the imagination, laminae or anything else can seedy toe not be cured.. If, as you say, I'm wrong, then take us, O fearless leader, on a journey of discovery that documents why seedy toe cannot be cured.
your article makes the usual common mistake most do including your self by calling & naming to separate conditions one & the same when both cause & cure are not one & the same & the only thing they do have in common is secondary infection your article fails to distinguish between true seedy toe & a separation with a secondary infection which are two separate diagnosis
No sir. Absent infection, all that is present is a laminar wedge of varying degrees(call it true seedy toe if you must). And, demonstrably, a laminar wedge can be successfully remediated. And demonstrably, any infection related to seedy toe can be remediated.
Ad since true seedy toe, by your definition involves/is separation/disinterdigitation of the dermal-epidermal laminae, then said separation with infection present, is still (true) seedy toe
& given the broad term seedy toe, if you care to take a good look at the pic again you will see there is no infection in the laminar
I did in fact see that, and have commented on it . The blood that is present is the result of the trauma that occurred when the laminae disinterdigitated. All that stretched laminae is evidence of the formation of a laminar wedge or in some cases, just stretched laminae without a laminar wedge forming.
so paring it back to blood serves no purpose other then creating a wound & giving an opening for infection to enter the hoof capsule do you really believe that to be a wise thing to do Rick ?
Who said anything about paring it back to blood and/or creating a wound? You left ragged disinterdigitated laminae exposed and in contact with the ground. And that Old Chap is what is going to allow pathogens to enter the hoof capsule and create infection, Stockholm tar or not.

And yes, generally speaking, I do not leave disinterdigitated laminae exposed and unprotected. Nor do I leave the heels of the foot out of balance and symmetry.

[JB]

jack, would you be so kind as to explain, in boring detail, why seedy toe cannot be cured?

[jack mac]

Jack - thinking about your photos. Agree you did the right thing taking care of the pony.
The first photo - does not represent in any way a horse that has been trimmed over time by a barefooter - for example - Ramey style. Is the owner the trimmer?
One of the photos - side shot - RF looks laminitic.
I question why you took off so much of the toe/sole from underneath. That was a very aggressive trim!!! Did the pony walk off ok - is still ok? I note one of the photos - finished? - that you did back up the toe.
You show the main difference between the two "barefoot styles".
The "barefooters" (will use Ramey as he is best known) - would not lower the toe area (sole) in front - would not trim deeply into the sole and expose what/like you did. "We" would have backed up the toe - and perhaps rasped the toe wall if necessary. We believe
that the sole should not be touched - as protection for the coffin bone - plus after so much sole removal - many horses are lame for days after their trim. We lower the walls - and allow the horse to exfoliate the sole on their own.
Again - I appreciate your passion. I am not a NB fan. I am a barefooter. I trim.
I have to wonder - if I met you in person - would you scare the daylights out of me - have me running for the hills? Or are you really a nice guy? I know you love horses - so I always give you the benefit of the doubt. he had trouble even walking his fetlocks were that sore from walking with so much toe on, he did trot off fine after his trim, didn't your mother ever warn you about talking to trolls :lol:,As for would i scare daylight out of you i don't really know the answer to that probably, but there's plenty of hills to run up were i live , send me a privet message & ill give you my myspace url if you like & ill add you as a friend if you want to see what a insane bad spelling nasty troll looks like.:lol:

[goeslikestink]

jac mac i dunno why you didnt rasp the toe more so...


quote
and by the way seedy toe can cured
seperation may occur at the white line- the seperation may become greatest if the sole is less higher up than the wall of foot if the speration is at the toe its called seedy toe
the zone of seperation is filledwith dry cheesy - type merterial. its often seen in horses whose toes have been allowed to become to long it does not cause lamness unless infection occurs or there is severe instability of the attachment of the wall of the hoof resulting in inflamantion of the laminiae

the cuase of seedy toe is not properly understood, providing the horse isnt lame then the condition can be managed by the farrier by careful trimming of the foot gradually the defect should grow out the toes should be kept short becuase the tip of the toe act as alever and may increase the seperation between the laminiae

and before you say this is a quote from a vet phd frcvs

the above quote is how many laminuts ponies are - or horses with long toes and i have seen many seedy toe can be cured if you know what you are doing

jac mac did you advise your client to take the pony off the grass or stripe feed and only give half a section of hay and no grian ?
-- if the pony is obese as thats what cuases most lamnitus
and the heal often grows quciker than the toe -

did you concur with the vet as to how much toe can be safely be removed?

a pony as the one you have pics - has to be strict diet and turnout with little or no grass
and careful triimming with radigraph and vet and farrier work together
to concur what can be safely taken of the toe.

did you advise that the pony in question needs a strict diet and a supplement of biotin
to make keretin - the componant that makes up the hoof wall?


did you ask the owner to check with the vet for ir resistance?
did ask the owner to check with the vet for cushings?
did you ask the owner to ask the vet to do blood work?


you see i had a mini that had laminutus and seedy toe as stated when 1st got him toes were curled up at fronts and slippers behind
after visit from vets and farriers and year of good triiming as it cant be done all at once as you have done-- hence why in photos you posted pony is sore as you can clearly see pink bits on the sole on the toe and on the quarters meaning you took off to much and pared to deep-- i know becuase i have watched with my own pony i chose him becuase i brought him with it and kept him --not saying i havent had others but thei pony is simular in height and size so a good comparison
also pony was obese- when i got him-- so with careful trmming and strict diet and exercise
pony was in full work and fit
pony did have slight seedy toe - but with trimming regualarly did grow out and he only had one bout of laminutis and that was when i got him- it took a year to get him back to full fitness and health-- and rings to grow out from the laminutus iusses
seedy toe can be cured if related to lamintus as your pony has in those pictures

its down to you as a farrier if you are one- to advise what needs to be done
as above to correct the ponys way of going and of comfort--
my little ted did have pain issues when i got him as he couldnt hardly walk and had the stance but not quite as he had it in all four feet and not just the fronts so the normal stance you see of a horse with chronic laminutis putting there weight on the heels and almost looking like backing up/sit position he couldnt do--

this pony was 15yrs old when i got him-- with good care from vets and good care from farrier and good managment from me ie strict and control diet and exercise
this pony lived another 19yrs he was 34 when he died of old age
and believe me this pony did ride and drive and did compete in all pony club activities with my son and won the dressage tests, show he did show jump was a highly sort after pony
and 100% fit-- did x/c events -- was the prince phillip the cup games pony for the tickham hunt pc and was a valid pony club member winning all his classes

so please dont tell me seedy toe cannot be cured becuase it can - and if you have laminiuts due to food which your client has-- then that can be controlled and the pony doesn thave to be in pain and suffer --
but in seriously teh pony in the pic is foot sore on all fours if thats how you have trimmed him
sorry but he is --- to short to quick

[Rick Burten]

but in seriously teh pony in the pic is foot sore on all fours if thats how you have trimmed him
sorry but he is --- to short to quick
I find myself in the curious position of having to disagree with this and stand by the basic work Jack has done. In the same situation, I too would more than likely have removed that much hoof. There is good evidence that there is plenty of sole for the horse to stand on without pain. I would have balanced the foot a bit differently, and I would not have left the exposed laminae in contact with the ground, but basically, my trim would have looked quite similar to Jack's. I also feel that the mini was not sore after the trim or if he was, it was not because he was trimmed too short, rather the return to a more normal hoof length and balance might have caused some soft tissue(tendons/ligaments) inflammation as they adjusted from the incorrect hoof form and length to the more correct hoof form and length.

It is indeed a curious moment in time. :)

[jack mac]

[QUOTE=jack mac;2963338]Your article is typical of the misunderstanding unfortunately with seedy toe, TRUE SEEDY TOE CAN NOT BE CURD only maintained[/quiote]
Unbelievable. Why pray tell can true seedy toe not be cured? By the way jack, without pathogens/infection present, its not seedy toe. Not by any stretch of the imagination, laminae or anything else. If, as you say, I'm wrong, then take us, O fearless leader, on a journey of discovery that documents what true seedy toe is.

No sir. You have failed to comprehend that the term seedy toe refers to infection occuriing in the disinterdigitated laminae at the toe. Absent infection, all that is present is a laminar wedge of varying degrees. And, demonstrably, a laminar wedge can be successfully remediated. And demonstrably, the infection known as seedy toe can be remediated.

I did infact see that, and have commented on it several times. The blood that is present is the result of the trauma that occurred when the laminae disinterdigitated. All that stretched laminae is evidence of the formation of a laminar wedge. Should infection gain a foothold(sic) then there would be the condition known as "Seedy Toe" present.

Who said anything about paring it back to blood and/or creating a wound? You left ragged disinterdigitated laminae exposed and in contact with the ground. And that Old Chap is what is going to allow pathogens to enter the hoof capsule and create infection, Stockholm tar or not.

And yes, generally speaking, I do not leave disinterdigitated laminae exposed and unprotected. Nor do I leave the heels of the foot out of balance and symmetry. stop it rick I'm laughing to hard I'm going to crack a rib, look at what you presented on the farriers forum as "your best work mate" in your neat little butcher shop & its pure butchery of those poor horses feet, if your work doesn't speak for it self Rick then i haven't a clue what would, i doubt you would of had the first clue on how to trim that pony's feet going by the pic's you posted big shot you say in one breath you wouldn't par back to the blood in the second breath you say you wouldn't leave disinterdigitated laminae & your telling me all about seedy toe your a joke mate, that's what true seedy toe is, that's why they call it seedy toe ,over here we wouldn't give you a fishing lic, Rick iv see some disgusting & destructive displays of unesesary rasping delaminating of periople & hoof wall performed in my time & your is right up there with the best of them you truly are, tell me & the forum how you justafied ? when its one of the fundamental causes for hooves to deteriorate from health to brittle shaley & over time contracted ?????

[jack mac]

jac mac i dunno why you didnt rasp the toe more so...


quote
and by the way seedy toe can cured
seperation may occur at the white line- the seperation may become greatest if the sole is less higher up than the wall of foot if the speration is at the toe its called seedy toe
the zone of seperation is filledwith dry cheesy - type merterial. its often seen in horses whose toes have been allowed to become to long it does not cause lamness unless infection occurs or there is severe instability of the attachment of the wall of the hoof resulting in inflamantion of the laminiae

the cuase of seedy toe is not properly understood, providing the horse isnt lame then the condition can be managed by the farrier by careful trimming of the foot gradually the defect should grow out the toes should be kept short becuase the tip of the toe act as alever and may increase the seperation between the laminiae

and before you say this is a quote from a vet phd frcvs

the above quote is how many laminuts ponies are - or horses with long toes and i have seen many seedy toe can be cured if you know what you are doing

jac mac did you advise your client to take the pony off the grass or stripe feed and only give half a section of hay and no grian ?
-- if the pony is obese as thats what cuases most lamnitus
and the heal often grows quciker than the toe -

did you concur with the vet as to how much toe can be safely be removed?

a pony as the one you have pics - has to be strict diet and turnout with little or no grass
and careful triimming with radigraph and vet and farrier work together
to concur what can be safely taken of the toe.

did you advise that the pony in question needs a strict diet and a supplement of biotin
to make keretin - the componant that makes up the hoof wall?


did you ask the owner to check with the vet for ir resistance?
did ask the owner to check with the vet for cushings?
did you ask the owner to ask the vet to do blood work?


you see i had a mini that had laminutus and seedy toe as stated when 1st got him toes were curled up at fronts and slippers behind
after visit from vets and farriers and year of good triiming as it cant be done all at once as you have done-- hence why in photos you posted pony is sore as you can clearly see pink bits on the sole on the toe and on the quarters meaning you took off to much and pared to deep-- i know becuase i have watched with my own pony i chose him becuase i brought him with it and kept him --not saying i havent had others but thei pony is simular in height and size so a good comparison
also pony was obese- when i got him-- so with careful trmming and strict diet and exercise
pony was in full work and fit
pony did have slight seedy toe - but with trimming regualarly did grow out and he only had one bout of laminutis and that was when i got him- it took a year to get him back to full fitness and health-- and rings to grow out from the laminutus iusses
seedy toe can be cured if related to lamintus as your pony has in those pictures

its down to you as a farrier if you are one- to advise what needs to be done
as above to correct the ponys way of going and of comfort--
my little ted did have pain issues when i got him as he couldnt hardly walk and had the stance but not quite as he had it in all four feet and not just the fronts so the normal stance you see of a horse with chronic laminutis putting there weight on the heels and almost looking like backing up/sit position he couldnt do--

this pony was 15yrs old when i got him-- with good care from vets and good care from farrier and good managment from me ie strict and control diet and exercise
this pony lived another 19yrs he was 34 when he died of old age
and believe me this pony did ride and drive and did compete in all pony club activities with my son and won the dressage tests, show he did show jump was a highly sort after pony
and 100% fit-- did x/c events -- was the prince phillip the cup games pony for the tickham hunt pc and was a valid pony club member winning all his classes

so please dont tell me seedy toe cannot be cured becuase it can - and if you have laminiuts due to food which your client has-- then that can be controlled and the pony doesn thave to be in pain and suffer --
but in seriously teh pony in the pic is foot sore on all fours if thats how you have trimmed him
sorry but he is --- to short to quick it called blood :yes:

[jack mac]

jack, would you be so kind as to explain, in boring detail, why seedy toe cannot be cured?lets get this little part sorted first the pathogens that form in the laminar can be treated both in true seedy toe & what is wrongly referred to as seedy toe which is what should be called white line disease.
Both differ in that white line is an infection in the white line only, once the bugs are killed you have a normal white line return again, with true seedy toe the width of the white line grows exsessively wider at the toe due to the horse having laminitis at some stage in its life & in doing so has affecting growth pattern of the laminar in the hoof cushings also effects the growth of the laminar, simply because a horse wont develop cushings unless it has suffered laminitis or been border line. not with standing of course a tumor in or on the pituitary gland being the other cause. so with true seedy toe there is noway off ridding the hoof of the excess laminar, it will simply keep growing back to the same margin when the toe grows & in order to keep the toe at the right length one has to cut through the white line to achieve this, which will expose the white line, hence the term seedy toe because it has the appearance of grass seeds after you rasp & neaten the toe . unfortunately for some horses there are farriers & vets who cant tell the difference & fortunately for some there are ones that can. PS hope that wasn't to boring for you JB

[Rick Burten]

[QUOTE=hoofrx1;2963394] stop it rick I'm laughing to hard I'm going to crack a rib,
Heaven forfend!
look at what you presented on the farriers forum as "your best work mate" in your neat little butcher shop & its pure butchery of those poor horses feet,
Huh? You wanna try to be a bit more specific? To which feet are you referring?
if your work doesn't speak for it self Rick then i haven't a clue what would, i doubt you would of had the first clue on how to trim that pony's feet going by the pic's you posted
Whatever.
big shot you say in one breath you wouldn't par back to the blood in the second breath you say you wouldn't leave disinterdigitated laminae
Correct. I never said I would pare the foot back to blood. I did say that I would roll/bevel that toe so that the disinterdigated laminae were removed. If you had more than a less than rudimentary understanding of the anatomy of the hoof, you would know that you wont bleed a horse if you've removed that damaged laminae correctly.
& your telling me all about seedy toe your a joke mate,
Jealous mon petite cheri? Embarassed that your lack of knowledge and skill is on display for all to see? Pity, old chap.
that's what true seedy toe is, that's why they call it seedy toe ,over here we wouldn't give you a fishing lic,
Why would I want one. Besides, since the Aust. gov't has somehow seen fit to give you a 007 license, I can't imagine why I would even want to be on the same continent as you. So tell me Jack, do you just whip out your trusty 007 license and off those poor animals that come under you gentle ministrations, or do you just cut their jugular open and let out all that bad blood and then send them merrily on their way?
Rick iv see some disgusting & destructive displays of unesesary rasping
You haven't a clue. Especially considering the one example you have presented for consideration.
delaminating of periople & hoof wall performed in my time & your is right up there with the best of them you truly are,
How pray tell does one delaminate the periople? And you base your observations on what body of work that I have presented for your review? Which reminds me, other than those poorly crafted keg race shoes sitting on someone's anvil, where are the oft promised but never delivered, photos of your work(the mini excepted, although that is a prime example of someone who is overzealous with a rasp and then doesn't know how to fix it. Talk about delaminating hoof wall...Jack, you are a master of international repute.)
tell me & the forum how you justafied ?
Nothing to justify. The work is correct, the horses, sound, the clients satisfied and the horses in better shape then when they walked on to my mats.
when its one of the fundamental causes for hooves to deteriorate from health to brittle shaley & over time contracted ?????
Maybe when a ham fisted second rater like you works on feet, but its not the case in my custom.

As I bid you adieu Jack, a line from the poem "To a Louse" by Robert Burns comes to mind and seems most appropriate:

"O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us! "

[matryoshka]

Jack, isn't it possible that if you brought the breakover back where it should be, there would not be stretching in the white line and separation would be alleviated? If you unload the front of the wall, prying stops during breakover. Why would laminae stretch with no pressure put upon it (either from pulling of the wall or internal pressure from trapped fluids)? IMLE, unless the horse is lamintic for metabolic reasons, stretching of the laminae as visible at the white line is evidence of too long a toe.

Having said that, I do remember one severely rotated mare that never had a proper hoof wall grow back. It continued to grow in a curve from the coronet, and the farrier placed the shoe where the coffin bone needed it, practically ignoring the wall. The mare stayed sound that way. She did have serious metabolic issues, but I'm not sure exactly what. If this is what you are referring to as "seedy toe", I'm thinking it is relatively rare and only occurs in chronic, untreated, and/or extremely severe founder.

If Cushings is not managed successfully, then a constant state of laminitis could be occurring, meaning that the laminae is constantly separating. I've never heard of this being referred to as Seedy Toe. This is chronic, ongoing laminitis. If one can get rid of the cause of the laminitis, and assuming there isn't so much damage to the basement membrane that the laminae can't interdigitate as the wall grows, then the separation should be able to grow out.

I'm thinking of Appass's horse Bo, here. He seems to have suffered so much damage that he's having trouble growing his hoof back. I guess due to compromised blood supply. In his case, the hoof seems to have been irreparably compromised due to the severity of the insult. A good farrier is helping him stay alive. I'm guessing this was also the case with the mare mentioned above. A good vet and talented farrier kept her alive and sound enough to gallop around her pasture.

[eruss]

I'm curious as to why if a hoof capsule is distorted more than can be fixed by dressing the wall back, why not fit a shoe to where the nondistorted hoof capsule would be?

[Rick Burten]

lets get this little part sorted first the pathogens that form in the laminar
Don't you mean "invade" rather than "form"? After all, just how does one form a pathogen?
can be treated both in true seedy toe & what is wrongly referred to as seedy toe which is what should be called white line disease.
What would you have us call the pathology that world wide is referred to as White Line Disease?
Both differ in that white line is an infection in the white line only, once the bugs are killed you have a normal white line return again,
Riiiiiiight! Try again Jack.
with true seedy toe the width of the white line grows exsessively wider at the toe due to the horse having laminitis at some stage in its life & in doing so has affecting growth pattern of the laminar in the hoof
Only when the hoof care is placed in the hands of some ham fisted second rater. Anyone come to mind Jack?
cushings also effects the growth of the laminar, simply because a horse wont develop cushings unless it has suffered laminitis or been border line.
You're kidding, right? Where do you get this stuff? Comedy Central?
not with standing of course a tumor in or on the pituitary gland being the other cause.
Hate to be the one to break the news to you Jack, but Cushings Disease has only to do with tumor growth on the pituitary gland as the cause.
so with true seedy toe there is noway off ridding the hoof of the excess laminar,
Sure there is. But to do so, you first have to get the metabolic cause of the founder under control.
it will simply keep growing back to the same margin when the toe grows & in order to keep the toe at the right length one has to cut through the white line to achieve this, which will expose the white line, hence the term seedy toe because it has the appearance of grass seeds after you rasp & neaten the toe .
Huh? How can one expose the white line if one has cut through the white line? And the term seedy toe refers only to the condition created when for what ever reason(s) the dermal and epidermal laminae of the hoof separate.

[elctrnc]

but in seriously teh pony in the pic is foot sore on all fours if thats how you have trimmed him sorry but he is --- to short to quick

I find myself in the curious position of having to disagree with this and stand by the basic work Jack has done...

Uh oh, could goeslikestink possibly be wrong about a hoof??? :eek:

Hey, GLS, it's the end of January...do you have those pictures of your horses' feet yet (both shod and unshod)? Remember, after your round of telling everyone that the barefoot horses on some trimming websites will be/are sore (and the owners/trimmers just don't know it), you were going to show us pictures of your "properly" trimmed feet after they were trimmed this month.

I'm interested for sure.

[JB]

simply because a horse wont develop cushings unless it has suffered laminitis or been border line.
Who knew that laminitis caused Cushing's? :lol:

PS hope that wasn't to boring for you JB
Quite entertaining actually, thanks :)

[Appassionato]

Uh oh, could goeslikestink possibly be wrong about a hoof??? :eek:

Hey, GLS, it's the end of January...do you have those pictures of your horses' feet yet (both shod and unshod)? Remember, after your round of telling everyone that the barefoot horses on some trimming websites will be/are sore (and the owners/trimmers just don't know it), you were going to show us pictures of your "properly" trimmed feet after they were trimmed this month.

I'm interested for sure.

Good questions, I've asked as well many times.

[Appassionato]

Jack, isn't it possible that if you brought the breakover back where it should be, there would not be stretching in the white line and separation would be alleviated? If you unload the front of the wall, prying stops during breakover.

In my particular case, this is absolutely correct. Of course exposing the WL so I can get Durasole or other preparations in was imperative. ;)

Why would laminae stretch with no pressure put upon it (either from pulling of the wall or internal pressure from trapped fluids)? IMLE, unless the horse is lamintic for metabolic reasons, stretching of the laminae as visible at the white line is evidence of too long a toe.

My basic understandings as well.

Having said that, I do remember one severely rotated mare that never had a proper hoof wall grow back. It continued to grow in a curve from the coronet, and the farrier placed the shoe where the coffin bone needed it, practically ignoring the wall. The mare stayed sound that way. She did have serious metabolic issues, but I'm not sure exactly what. If this is what you are referring to as "seedy toe", I'm thinking it is relatively rare and only occurs in chronic, untreated, and/or extremely severe founder.

Who knows what the x-rays showed. Seriously!

If Cushings is not managed successfully, then a constant state of laminitis could be occurring, meaning that the laminae is constantly separating. I've never heard of this being referred to as Seedy Toe. This is chronic, ongoing laminitis. If one can get rid of the cause of the laminitis, and assuming there isn't so much damage to the basement membrane that the laminae can't interdigitate as the wall grows, then the separation should be able to grow out.

In whatever form pedal osteitis is occuring, yes. Inflammation is a bad thing! Here me or don't here me! :yes:

I have heard of seedy toe, and it was because of Bo's former founder and opportunistic organisms. It is now over, proving once again what Rick said about "curing" seedy toe is possible.

I'm thinking of Appass's horse Bo, here. He seems to have suffered so much damage that he's having trouble growing his hoof back. I guess due to compromised blood supply. In his case, the hoof seems to have been irreparably compromised due to the severity of the insult. A good farrier is helping him stay alive. I'm guessing this was also the case with the mare mentioned above. A good vet and talented farrier kept her alive and sound enough to gallop around her pasture.

No doubt suffered a LOT of damage. His x-rays show it. Some of the blood supply was re-routed (rare), but a lot of it wasn't. As far as his capabilities of healing, we aren't sure of anything especially in light of his Cushing's diagnosis. He's beat death before, he might beat it again. :winkgrin:

BUT in respect with what you are describing, yes, he shouldn't be alive. Recently we've been puzzled with his lack of hoof growth and wondered why. Maybe we have a reason now with his recent diagnosis. Or maybe it's the end of the line. Bottom line, he beat death for a long time with a very grim prognosis. Not that it is all doom and gloom nor that I've kept him alive as a "lab rat" as suggested before; rather I'd like him to be happy yet as an example for others. Not that I have to explain thnat for reading comprehension, but for the ignorance of *some*. :winkgrin::lol:

[jack mac]

Don't you mean "invade" rather than "form"? After all, just how does one form a pathogen?

What would you have us call the pathology that world wide is referred to as White Line Disease?

Riiiiiiight! Try again Jack.

Only when the hoof care is placed in the hands of some ham fisted second rater. Anyone come to mind Jack?

You're kidding, right? Where do you get this stuff? Comedy Central?

Hate to be the one to break the news to you Jack, but Cushings Disease has only to do with tumor growth on the pituitary gland as the cause.

Sure there is. But to do so, you first have to get the metabolic cause of the founder under control.

Huh? How can one expose the white line if one has cut through the white line? And the term seedy toe refers only to the condition created when for what ever reason(s) the dermal and epidermal laminae of the hoof separate.YER you know it all google boy, the more you spout off Rick the more i discover how little you really know, out of curiosity & for the forums benefit, how many horses have you diagnosed with cushings ? & how many have you had to put down ? & how many have you cut up for that matter ? & how many tumors have you found or not found as a result of cutting those animals up ? & what is your opinion then are you saying the pituitary gland does not get damage when a horses develops laminitis ? & are you saying proper function isn't affected or impeded for the rest of that horses life with an attack of laminitis? & would you even know what a diseased pituitary gland looked like other then in a book? & have you ever dissected one & examined it? & in your opinion rick is a tumor the only representation that presents when a pituitary gland is diseased or not functioning properly. Taking a confidant punt on my part , id have to say you have never seen one in the real world, so id doubt you wold know what it looked like in the flesh or whether it was deceased or not keep googling google boy, at least you good at somethings a?f what a joke that team of so called professionals must be.

[jack mac]

{mod note: the following was posted in response to Appassionato--original quote lost during edit}

I find you a little less than truthful with you diagnoses & the prognoses lady ?didn't you send me a privet message once wanting to know about toe clips causing problems with the white line from pressure & what did i mean by clips being let back to far & causing a starting point in the white line for a secondary infection, if i recall you were referring to it as seedy toe correct me if I'm wrong? [edit] i find it quite ironic that you make theses claims of cure of seedy toe, when in your own word you haven't a clue whats going on with your horses feet, they say hell knows no fury than a woman scorned, did doing away with the clips clear up his so called true seedy toe hell who couldn't of [edit]

[JB]

jack, where is YOUR "proof" that laminitis causes Cushing's? Unless you're a vet, how are YOU diagnosing Cushing's? How many necropsies have YOU performed to diagnose either pituitary tumor-induced Cushing's or laminitis-induced?

Ahhhh, entertaining indeed :)

[Appassionato]

I did what??? My discussions of diagnosis and prognosis go way back on this forum and many will defend these discussions...it's because I have credibility. Are you sure you aren't confusing me with someone else? Or just confused overall?


And if you feel that Jaye is not taking care of Bo's problems correctly, then speak to him. Really, explain to him what he's done wrong. Your ban at horseshoes should be over now, ask him. Otherwise, attacking *me* for it is just being a coward and a hater.

[JB]

Wow, Apass, you were so polite in your reply!!! :eek: I think it's worth reporting that post of his. His actions aren't called for anyway, but that was so over the top I'm just open-mouthed :no::no::no:

[CookiePony]

... how many tumors have you found or not found as a result of cutting those animals up ?

You are scary, man.

[Rick Burten]

YER you know it all google boy, the more you spout off Rick the more i discover how little you really know,
Considering your level of expertise here on display, your insights and opinions carry the weight of a hole. In case that is too abstract a concept for you, consider that a hole weighs nothing.
out of curiosity & for the forums benefit, how many horses have you diagnosed with cushings ?
None. I'm not a vet. How about you?
& how many have you had to put down ?
None. I'm not a vet and none of my horses ever had Cushings Disease/Syndrome(PPID).
& how many have you cut up for that matter ?
None. Im not a vet, though I have attended several autopsies as an interested observer. How about you?
& how many tumors have you found or not found as a result of cutting those animals up ?
None. I'm not a vet though in a few PM's(that's Post-mortem, not Private Messsage,Jack)tumors of various organs (and their consequences)were pointed out to me. How about you?
& what is your opinion then are you saying the pituitary gland does not get damage when a horses develops laminitis ?
It depends. It is my understanding that often, many organs suffer consequences from acute metabolic disruptions.
& are you saying proper function isn't affected or impeded for the rest of that horses life with an attack of laminitis?
That is precisely what I am saying. After all, Laminitis is nothing more and nothing less than an inflammation of the laminae. Depending on its severity and longevity, the consequences to the horse may be anywhere from non-existant to life imperiling/ending. IOW, It Depends

Now, if you are confusing laminitis with founder, then indeed, in cases of founder, the consequences to the horse, over time , generally have an impact, to one extent or another, on the horse's function and functionality.
& would you even know what a diseased pituitary gland looked like other then in a book?
Probably not. But why should I have to? I'm not a veterinarian, anatomist , or researcher. But I do know several who are, and we regularly discuss the conditions of the horse. How about you?
& have you ever dissected one & examined it?
Nope. Why would I need to do so? I'm not a veterinarian. And of what value would that be to me or my clients? How about you?
& in your opinion rick is a tumor the only representation that presents when a pituitary gland is diseased or not functioning properly.
No, but it is the representation that presents, at autopsy, when a diagnosis of Cushings Disease/Syndrome(PPID) has been made.

By the way Jack, do you know what is considered to be the "Trigger" for the formation of the tumor of the Pituitary gland associated with Cushings Disease/Syndrome(PPID)? If so, please share your knowledge with us.
Taking a confidant punt on my part , id have to say you have never seen one in the real world, so id doubt you wold know what it looked like in the flesh or whether it was deceased or not
Actually, you'd be incorrect and would be penalized 15 yards for Improper use of the brain.
fwhat a joke that team of so called professionals must be.
There is indeed a joke here, but its not being provided by me.

[Dune]

[

Well, if those folks have attended either a couple of workshops/clinics or are certified in the protocols, then that shouldn't be happening. What I do see happening quite a lot is that someone who never attended a clinic or certification, or maybe attended a one day clinic, thinks they understand completely, the protocols. In point of fact, probably, they don't. But they go out and tell people they are practiced and well versed in the protocols and then go and screw the job up. For which, the protocols and/or the shoes, get the blame.

If you go to: http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/techsupport/search/farrier/enterfsearch.html

you will find a list of farriers who are either NB certified or have attended several clinics, etc. The link will take you to the "conditions" page. Read it so you understand what its about, click "Accept" and you will be taken to the Farrier Locator page.

Doing this, allows you to check and see, regardless of any claims made by your farrier, what his/her NB status is.[/quote]


It's been so long ago now that I couldn't even tell you the gal's name, her first name, yes, last name....??? I assume she had some type of accreditation simply because she said she did and we had Gene "live" on the phone and he told me she was going to fix my horse. It was great speaking to a "celebrity" and all but I would've been happier with a sound horse. :yes: It's in the past so whatever..... I've been to that horseshoes site so many times in the past, it's bookmarked on my computer, great info, but I'm not a farrier and I can't "make it happen" so I can have all the knowledge that I can hold in my little pea brain and it doesn't do me or my horse much good. I'm able to say, "I like that!" or "I don't like that." Gifted. :rolleyes::lol:

[Rick Burten]

they say hell knows no fury than a woman scorned,
Actually you eruditely challenged Old Chap, the word "know" is not part of the phrase, and the word is "like" not "than" as in ""Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned / Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned." which is the actual rendition in toto of the oft quoted phrase. which is routinely corrupted to the phrase "Hell has no fury like a women scorned".

I must say that is pleases me, regardless of the subject, to be able to further contribute to your ongoing education.

[edit]

As it is said, "Cowards die many times before their deaths......."

[Moderator 1]

If topics cannot be discussed without personal insults, etc. obscuring the conversation, threads will be closed accordingly. Specific infractions will be dealt with on an individual basis.

Thanks.

[goeslikestink]

it called blood :yes:

why-- the foot has pink bits in it which is to me means sore foot hence why i said to short to quick--
might be becuase ted was the worse one i have ever had and you couldnt just remove xyz it took time-- as the pony feet were curled up
and over theyears he to was short like your one in photos but fronts looked the same once
he was going properly hinds were worse as like huge slippers they grew much quicker than the fronts-- so he was done every 6weeks with out fail if you left him longer like isaid his hinds would be worse than his fronts

not arguing with you just stating what i know and what was done, as vets and farrier had xrays
to dertermine how much to take off each time- till pony was ok
and then kept to it -

not oout for blood if thats what you were thinking-- as if you a good farrier then you would advise feed protocol since after all people relay on vets and farriers for there knowledge

[goeslikestink]

I find myself in the curious position of having to disagree with this and stand by the basic work Jack has done. In the same situation, I too would more than likely have removed that much hoof. There is good evidence that there is plenty of sole for the horse to stand on without pain. I would have balanced the foot a bit differently, and I would not have left the exposed laminae in contact with the ground, but basically, my trim would have looked quite similar to Jack's. I also feel that the mini was not sore after the trim or if he was, it was not because he was trimmed too short, rather the return to a more normal hoof length and balance might have caused some soft tissue(tendons/ligaments) inflammation as they adjusted from the incorrect hoof form and length to the more correct hoof form and length.

It is indeed a curious moment in time. :)


well ok understand that-- but to me the pony would be sore,, and after your explianation makes perfect sense-- i after all arnt a farrier but i do know when a horse is foot sore if i dont know the reasons why

i know my pony was same type as can tell by the piccy of the feet, so this pony wasnt big
mine was a shetti x sec A of 10.2hhs high- back breaker as so small... haha
but his feet when finished looked very much like his fronts on the piccy,,except teds were white so you see more damaged easily than with a black meaning pink bits
to me any sign of pink in the foot- its sore-- dont mind what people say you shouldnt have pink in the foot of the sole or horn growth-- so the horse is sore in my eyes

[goeslikestink]

Uh oh, could goeslikestink possibly be wrong about a hoof??? :eek:

Hey, GLS, it's the end of January...do you have those pictures of your horses' feet yet (both shod and unshod)? Remember, after your round of telling everyone that the barefoot horses on some trimming websites will be/are sore (and the owners/trimmers just don't know it), you were going to show us pictures of your "properly" trimmed feet after they were trimmed this month.

I'm interested for sure.

actually i showed one of my horses feet to rick the one i use most off and hes said shes fine thanks


you forgetting i have more than one horse and do have barefooters as well this is a dicussion about seedy of which i have had expreince with being that one of my mian ponies had it due to laminutus so i speak as i know what i did and how he recovered and went into to full time work by the way this pony was barefoot

[goeslikestink]

jac mac-- can i just calarified something you said

yes little ted did have cushions and dieabites and laminitus he didnt get cushions or dieabities till later on in his years as like 29th year
as i said this little lad lived till 34yrs

as regards to cushions- any horse can get it at any age but some only get it in old age and in most it only effect the coat and not the feet please take not i said in most it doesnt effect the feet didnt say it didnt

fogi is my old pony of 39 this year-- he fit as a fiddle-- but has cushions but only the coat part
his feet his health is fine he is not lamnitus, nor has diebeites nor is ir resistence

hes an old boy growing old gracefully- his feet have always been healthy
yes he does wlak like a bimbo-- as he walk on insides of his feet and on his toes
but his feet are trimmed now every 6weeks and are healthy-
when he had shoes on he would have rolled toes- with a balanced shoe for co in counter for the walk he walked- hes never ever been lame in all his life
barefoot or shod--- and i have had since 2yrs old

i khave had at least 5 other old ponies whereby cushions was only apprant by there coat

which is like a shaggy dog all year round so to help the horses or pony in the summer month we clip them
but fogi wont have the clippers near him so its elbow grease and get it out abit at a time
as this boy was serverly beaten and driven til his spirit was gone he was pulling a london trolly at 2yrs till he gave up-- hewas at that time 12.2hhs and skinny he already had shoes on him--
a london trolly for anyone that dont know is what used to be a flat bed trailer for hauglage work -- driven by large varierty of cobs or bigger drafts normally shires
this boys feet with shoes were worn to a point -of no return when i got him i took themoff
and let him be ababy neddy for a while as he was one but gave him all the care and attentioned he needed to put him right --both mental and pysically plus letting his feet grow as they should be -- never looked back

[elctrnc]

actually i showed one of my horses feet to rick the one i use most off and hes said shes fine thanks

You seem to be missing the point (surprise, surprise). You fire off plenty of posts disparaging the trim/shoe jobs of others (like jackmac here), yet won't post the pictures of your own horses? Unless you are forgetting, YOU are the one who offered to post pictures after your trims this month. I don't need to see All of your horses. One shod and one barefoot will be sufficient. Because, after all GLS, we are trying to learn from YOU and all YOUR hoof knowledge. If you come on here spouting what is "truth," don't you think you should back it up? :lol:

Besides, why did you even decide to show Rick pictures? You think you know more than him anyway. :rolleyes:

[Appassionato]

actually i showed one of my horses feet to rick the one i use most off and hes said shes fine thanks


you forgetting i have more than one horse and do have barefooters as well this is a dicussion about seedy of which i have had expreince with being that one of my mian ponies had it due to laminutus so i speak as i know what i did and how he recovered and went into to full time work by the way this pony was barefoot

You did promise pics this month...have you now decided against it? If so, why?

[jack mac]

Considering your level of expertise here on display, your insights and opinions carry the weight of a hole. In case that is too abstract a concept for you, consider that a hole weighs nothing.

None. I'm not a vet. How about you?

None. I'm not a vet and none of my horses ever had Cushings Disease/Syndrome(PPID).

None. Im not a vet, though I have attended several autopsies as an interested observer. How about you?

None. I'm not a vet though in a few PM's(that's Post-mortem, not Private Messsage,Jack)tumors of various organs (and their consequences)were pointed out to me. How about you?

It depends. It is my understanding that often, many organs suffer consequences from acute metabolic disruptions.

That is precisely what I am saying. After all, Laminitis is nothing more and nothing less than an inflammation of the laminae. Depending on its severity and longevity, the consequences to the horse may be anywhere from non-existant to life imperiling/ending. IOW, It Depends

Now, if you are confusing laminitis with founder, then indeed, in cases of founder, the consequences to the horse, over time , generally have an impact, to one extent or another, on the horse's function and functionality.

Probably not. But why should I have to? I'm not a veterinarian, anatomist , or researcher. But I do know several who are, and we regularly discuss the conditions of the horse. How about you?

Nope. Why would I need to do so? I'm not a veterinarian. And of what value would that be to me or my clients? How about you?

No, but it is the representation that presents, at autopsy, when a diagnosis of Cushings Disease/Syndrome(PPID) has been made.

By the way Jack, do you know what is considered to be the "Trigger" for the formation of the tumor of the Pituitary gland associated with Cushings Disease/Syndrome(PPID)? If so, please share your knowledge with us.

Actually, you'd be incorrect and would be penalized 15 yards for Improper use of the brain.
f
There is indeed a joke here, but its not being provided by me. I am on my last warning rick, no amount of dribble on your part is going to provoke me today ;) as for cushings the first noticeable signs are in the feet;) then the coat & lungs;) & the horses develops a distinct smell;) that's why I'm the most likely to be the first to notice these changes in the horse & i refer them on to a publicly registered veterinarian service & that doesnt mean I'm left out of the loop ;) far from it :)

[Rick Burten]

I am on my last warning rick,
Praise the lord and pass the ammunition.....
no amount of dribble on your part is going to provoke me today
Only one here dribbling is you, and its more like you're salivating like a rabid dog.
Do make sure you have your bib on when you sit down at the table.
as for cushings the first noticeable signs are in the feet
Really? Has Comedy Central gotten ahold of you yet?
then the coat & lungs;)
Uh huh. Sure.
& the horses develops a distinct smell
Much like that which arises from your writings.
that's why I'm the most likely to be the first to notice these changes in the horse
Confucius say "Unless double jointed, he who pats self on back, soon breaks arm."
& i refer them on to a publicly registered veterinarian service & that doesnt mean I'm left out of the loop ;) far from it :)
Not germane to the conversations at hand. Answer the questions posed on this thread
by several others, myself included.

"Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive"

[jack mac]

Actually you eruditely challenged Old Chap, the word "know" is not part of the phrase, and the word is "like" not "than" as in ""Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned / Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned." which is the actual rendition in toto of the oft quoted phrase. which is routinely corrupted to the phrase "Hell has no fury like a women scorned".

I must say that is pleases me, regardless of the subject, to be able to further contribute to your ongoing education.

[edit]

As it is said, "Cowards die many times before their deaths......." if your referring to me as a challenged Old Chap (handicapped) & that is indeed what you are referring to:yes: & if you think by continual making fun of the fact that i am deaf & struggle with & always have & will with the English language because i cant hear speak nor sound words out & have trouble forming sentences makes me feel inadequate & any less of a person in this world, then you are mistaken you sick perverted cowardly poor excuse for a human Rick 100 %, jack gives you a Gold Star

[Rick Burten]

if your referring to me as a challenged Old Chap (handicapped) & that is indeed what you are referring to:yes: & if you think by continual making fun of the fact that i am deaf & struggle with & always have & will with the English language because i cant hear speak nor sound words out & have trouble forming sentences makes me feel inadequate & any less of a person in this world, then you are mistaken you sick perverted cowardly poor excuse for a human Rick 100 %, jack gives you a Gold Star
Read for content in context with an emphasis on comprehension, Jack. I referred to you as an eruditely challenged Old Chap. Never once have I made mention of or even alluded to your physical disability, or made fun of it. Nor will I ever.

Keep your gold star. It is unwarranted and not accepted.

Don't bother with an apology. It won't be accepted either.

[jack mac]

Now can we get back to talking about your work, you know the pics you posted as "your best work" on the farriers forum, i don't see your beloved NB protocols that your defending so hard about in those photos , whats that word rick you might be able with the spelling of it" hypocrite "& i don't see a rolled up edge on that trimmed hoof & that wouldn't be laminar i can see what about the macrobios rick you made such a fuss about, WERES YOUR BREAK OVER RICK you keep dribbling on about????

[Appassionato]

Where has Rick acted pervertedly???

In any case, the pony you trimmed jackmac (you provided photos of it on this thread)...were x-rays ever taken?

[Rick Burten]

Now can we get back to talking about your work, you know the pics you posted as "your best work" on the farriers forum, i don't see your beloved NB protocols that your defending so hard about in those photos
"There are none so blind as those who will not see...." * Never said I only use NB shoes. However, the feet are trimmed in accordance with NB trimming protocols and the shoes and pads are fit according to NB Protocols.
whats that word rick you might be able with the spelling of it" hypocrite "
You've chosen the wrong word. Why am I not suprised? There is nothing in my writings or my custom that says I only use NB products.
& i don't see a rolled up edge on that trimmed hoof
Of course you don't. That hoof was prepped for a shoe, not to go barefoot. DUH!
& that wouldn't be laminar i can see
Why of course it is(exposed laminae that is). But its not in contact with the ground, and the edges are protected, and the area has been sealed. Do you or do you not understand the difference?
what about the macrobios rick you made such a fuss about
What's a "macrobios"? Is that some sort of overly large/inflated biography of some insignificant little peawort?

Oh, I get it, you actually meant "microbes", right? I will take the leap of faith that that is indeed what you are referring to, and respond by saying that I just answered that question, above.
WERES YOUR BREAK OVER RICK you keep dribbling on about????
Right where it belongs. Remember Jack "There are none so blind as those who will not see..."*

All together now: "Everything is beautiful, in its own way........"

* To help Jack better understand the metaphor "There are none so blind as those who will not see...." I offer this explanation of what that phrase means: The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know.

[Appassionato]

What's a "macrobios"?

A "Big" "Life"? :winkgrin:

Hey rick? Would you mind linking the post jackmac is talking about? I'd like to see the feet, with some info about it all, please!

[jack mac]

Then why are you arguing for the NB "dogma" crew rick when you understand clearly what dogma means, if you were part of the NB dogma crew then there is no way in the world you would of addresses those feet in that manner & the NB dogmatic would be telling you that you had shod those pony's wrong, because you didn't follow strict NB protocols & you should of mapped the feet using there method bla bla bla, regardless of weather it was right for that particular pony or "NOT" you have just proved it you self Rick are you going to tell me know you got those pony's feet wrong & you should of put NB shoes on all of them ?

[Rick Burten]

Hey rick? Would you mind linking the post jackmac is talking about? I'd like to see the feet, with some info about it all, please!http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6809&page=2

starts on page 2 at post # 27 and continues on page 3. Take a look and then fire away. I'll do my best to answer fully.

[rmh]

Maybe something is wrong in my cyber world but that link doesn't work for me.

[Appassionato]

Thanks Rick! Wow, those were some interesting feets. Did I see things correctly in that 3 were bull-nosed and one front was dished? Why two different types of front shoes? Since I don't know much about frog support pads other than the incorrect application of them foundered Bo (frog support ended anterior to apex of frog), I have to ask: why is the pad shorter than the actual frog? Is that normal? I don't know what "normal" is with these kinds of pads. I guess what I'm really asking is why you shod this horse this way. Like many people, I learn by looking at LOTS of examples rather than just one type of hoof or problem. ;)

[Rick Burten]

Did I see things correctly in that 3 were bull-nosed and one front was dished?
Yep. Nice, huh. :)
Why two different types of front shoes?
They're not different. Both are St. Croix Eventers. They're shaped differently because the feet are different shapes.
Since I don't know much about frog support pads other than the incorrect application of them foundered Bo (frog support ended anterior to apex of frog), I have to ask: why is the pad shorter than the actual frog?
Afew reasons. First, thats as long as they make the frog support.
Second, those frogs are somewhat stretched so I had to make sure I put the apex of the frog pad in the correct location.
Third, the tip of the frog pad is under the COA
Fourth, if I had felt the horse needed more, I would have added EquiPak to the equation.
Is that normal? I don't know what "normal" is with these kinds of pads. I guess what I'm really asking is why you shod this horse this way. Like many people, I learn by looking at LOTS of examples rather than just one type of hoof or problem. ;)
Yes, its normal(depending on what your definition of normal is of course) I trimmed and shod the horse this way because he IMNTBCHO, needed his feet re-balanced so that they were more correctly under him, so that his heels were well and properly supported, so that his breakover was correctly addressed/located, and so that the structures in the back of the hoof were supported.

[Rick Burten]

Maybe something is wrong in my cyber world but that link doesn't work for me.
Try it now. It should work.

[Appassionato]

They're not different. Both are St. Croix Eventers. They're shaped differently because the feet are different shapes.

The first pic in post #29, the toe part made me think it was a steel NB shoe. Oops on my part! :lol:

...those frogs are somewhat stretched so I had to make sure I put the apex of the frog pad in the correct location....the tip of the frog pad is under the COA

What caused the stretching? I'm not sure I've ever seen anything like that...usually I see pics of puny frogs that need to be longer and wider (much like Bo's when Jaye first started with him).

What is COA?

Yes, its normal(depending on what your definition of normal is of course) I trimmed and shod the horse this way because he IMNTBCHO, needed his feet re-balanced so that they were more correctly under him, so that his heels were well and properly supported, so that his breakover was correctly addressed/located, and so that the structures in the back of the hoof were supported.

I forgot to ask, what are the 2 red lines I see in the wall near the coronet band on the left front (post #29, 2nd pic)?

And thank you for the explanations!

[Thomas_1]

I'm not familliar with your Australian Colloquialisms so, what's a 'punter'?

http://english2american.com/dictionary/p.html

[Rick Burten]

Then why are you arguing for the NB "dogma" crew rick when you understand clearly what dogma means,
Apparently I understand what dogma means but you don't. I am using protocols that I did my due dilligence in examining and then started applying them. Actually, much of the trimming protocols were what I was taught when I was first starting. Gene merely codified them for me and everyone else. The shoeing protocols took some serious thinking about, but as I started working them in to my custom, I starting seeing better results than I was getting any other way.
if you were part of the NB dogma crew then there is no way in the world you would of addresses those feet in that manner
Maybe thats because I'm not following dogma which is, in effect, doing something based only on faith and/or belief. Demonstrably, that is not my modus operandi.
& the NB dogmatic would be telling you that you had shod those pony's wrong, because you didn't follow strict NB protocols & you should of mapped the feet using there method bla bla bla, regardless of weather it was right for that particular pony or "NOT" you have just proved it you self
What should be apparent to you by now is that I am neither an acolyte or zealot immersed in some cult. Rather, I am an independent, forward looking thinker who practices practical and pragmatic farriery. That pony was shod precisely as needed to accomplish the task set for him by his human connection. And, if you were paying attention, you would have noted that the toe of the shoe is well rolled, thus moving the breakover back, and the heels are well and fully supported. All part and parcel of NB Principles. And, what makes you think I didn't map those feet?
Rick are you going to tell me know you got those pony's feet wrong & you should of put NB shoes on all of them ?
Heaven forfend! Those feet and the shoeing package applied to them are just what the "doctor" ordered.

Did you perchance happen to notice that on one of the examples, the shoe is perimeter fit? Care to guess why?

Ya' see Jack, unlike you, I am not stuck in the "daddydiditthataway so that's what I'm agonna do too" mindset. And Jack, in case the concept has not yet struck you, you are doing things the way you were taught. Betcha you haven't changed your style much if at all since the end of the first year you tried to be a farrier. Now which one of us do you really think is dogmatic?

[Rick Burten]

What caused the stretching?
What is COA?
I forgot to ask, what are the 2 red lines I see in the wall near the coronet band on the left front (post #29, 2nd pic)?

And thank you for the explanations!
1. neglect and relative incompetence(JMNTBCHO)
2. Center of Articulation
3. Old bruising caused by the wall jamming up into the coronary corium and then in time, growing ou.
4..You're welcome
:)

[JHUshoer20]

http://english2american.com/dictionary/p.html
Hey Thomas,
Must you often refer to that reading and listening to us?

Being separated by a common language is a terrible thing:lol:
George

[Appassionato]

1. neglect and relative incompetence(JMNTBCHO)
2. Center of Articulation
3. Old bruising caused by the wall jamming up into the coronary corium and then in time, growing ou.
4..You're welcome
:)

The "neglect and relative incompetence"...did the whole bottom of the hoof grow forward or something? Again I've never seen anything like this, but the footing in my area is part of the reason some of the horses in my area survive twice a year trims to sometimes every so many years...no joke! The footing here is so abrasive that the deep ridge you see in the pic below is almost completely grown out. In the next trim it will be gone (less than a year for a completely new hoof).

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2981925500097055594EoTQyN

[Appassionato]

Hey Thomas,
Must you often refer to that reading and listening to us?

Being separated by a common language is a terrible thing:lol:
George

Have you read some of those definitions??? That was a pretty funny site! :D

[Thomas_1]

George,

Please note that's the translation from English to American and not the other way round. I muddle through understanding you ;)

Appassionata,

Are you making fun of our fine English language? You'll see we have a lot more words for an idiot than you do.

[Appassionato]

Appassionata,

Are you making fun of our fine English language? You'll see we have a lot more words for an idiot than you do.

That was good stuff! And yes I'm familiar with you guys having more words for an idiot; I have several friends IRL from the UK. Often I have to ask, "Do what?!" :lol:

[jack mac]

Apparently I understand what dogma means but you don't. I am using protocols that I did my due dilligence in examining and then started applying them. Actually, much of the trimming protocols were what I was taught when I was first starting. Gene merely codified them for me and everyone else. The shoeing protocols took some serious thinking about, but as I started working them in to my custom, I starting seeing better results than I was getting any other way.

Maybe thats because I'm not following dogma which is, in effect, doing something based only on faith and/or belief. Demonstrably, that is not my modus operandi.

What should be apparent to you by now is that I am neither an acolyte or zealot immersed in some cult. Rather, I am an independent, forward looking thinker who practices practical and pragmatic farriery. That pony was shod precisely as needed to accomplish the task set for him by his human connection. And, if you were paying attention, you would have noted that the toe of the shoe is well rolled, thus moving the breakover back, and the heels are well and fully supported. All part and parcel of NB Principles. And, what makes you think I didn't map those feet?

Heaven forfend! Those feet and the shoeing package applied to them are just what the "doctor" ordered.

Did you perchance happen to notice that on one of the examples, the shoe is perimeter fit? Care to guess why?

Ya' see Jack, unlike you, I am not stuck in the "daddydiditthataway so that's what I'm agonna do too" mindset. And Jack, in case the concept has not yet struck you, you are doing things the way you were taught. Betcha you haven't changed your style much if at all since the end of the first year you tried to be a farrier. Now which one of us do you really think is dogmatic?Well I'm sorry my family's been in the caper for ten generation Rick, I do think that's long enough to get a fair idea to know what works & what doesnt work, what cripples them up & what doesn't,& what gets them over the line faster then the next punters, yer rick why the hell would i want to cling to that old tripe for :confused: when i can embrace the new ways of thinking when in fact in realty, there not new at all, just old hashed up ideas that were flawed back then & are still flawed today, that's right rick tried & proven to be wrong so what has changed to make it any different ?

[jack mac]

George,

Please note that's the translation from English to American and not the other way round. I muddle through understanding you ;)

Appassionata,

Are you making fun of our fine English language? You'll see we have a lot more words for an idiot than you do. I'm glad you don't know what macrobios means in slang or id be getting anther warning;)

[Thomas_1]

I'm glad you don't know what macrobios means in slang or id be getting anther warning;) The thing is I haven't got a clue what you're saying at all.

And I don't know if a macrobios is just another spelling error.

[jack mac]

The thing is I haven't got a clue what you're saying at all.

And I don't know if a macrobios is just another spelling error.well that's good i thought you were going to give me up? but seen as no one here knows what it means its safe for me to say, its something we write over here on a report or refer that the owner may see by accident or we don't wont them understanding what were saying about that customer, its about the way they have carried on or didnt payed you on time ;)

[Thomas_1]

clear as mud

[goeslikestink]

You seem to be missing the point (surprise, surprise). You fire off plenty of posts disparaging the trim/shoe jobs of others (like jackmac here), yet won't post the pictures of your own horses? Unless you are forgetting, YOU are the one who offered to post pictures after your trims this month. I don't need to see All of your horses. One shod and one barefoot will be sufficient. Because, after all GLS, we are trying to learn from YOU and all YOUR hoof knowledge. If you come on here spouting what is "truth," don't you think you should back it up? :lol:

Besides, why did you even decide to show Rick pictures? You think you know more than him anyway. :rolleyes:

why becuase hes a farrier and i asked his opnion on what he thought as regards to feet i found a few pics off one horse i have not all off them and i ahve been far to bissy to get photos when i have had more important things to think about as out of work
i shoudnt have to explain but i wll for you benefit--i have had to help my daughter keep her home due pratt of an x boyfreind who nearly cost her everything she has and her horses are now back home with me -- so i think my debs comes way before a flipping photo when shes got a little boy to support and all her x bloke has to pay is a fiver a week according to csa - so please her needs were more needy ---
but iwll get photos when i have the time

[Happy_Hooves]

Jack,

You kinda picked the wrong expert to reference to dubunk natural hoofcare practices. Dr. Clayton is a proponent of the natural barefoot trim is a friend of Gene Ovineck and Dr Bowker and does research with bowker.

She puts her money where her mouth is and competes at the FEI level barefoot in a natural trim.

http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2006/12/dr-hilary-clayton-wins-two-national.html

This article pages 6-7 reviews the study of the natural trim old.cvm.msu.edu/dressage/articles/Annual%20Reports/2005%20Annual%20Report.pdf

[JHUshoer20]

Jack,

You kinda picked the wrong expert to reference to dubunk natural hoofcare practices. Dr. Clayton is a proponent of the natural barefoot trim is a friend of Gene Ovineck and Dr Bowker and does research with bowker.

She puts her money where her mouth is and competes at the FEI level barefoot in a natural trim.

http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2006/12/dr-hilary-clayton-wins-two-national.html

This article pages 6-7 reviews the study of the natural trim old.cvm.msu.edu/dressage/articles/Annual%20Reports/2005%20Annual%20Report.pdf
George,
As Mr Stovall has often been known to say dressage doesn't demonstrate any signifcant athleticism. Is no reason most of them really couldn't compete barefoot so what's the point?

Jack is talking about nbs. As most can see he is pretty passionately opposed to it. I have no idea what Dr Clayton's ideas are concerning this but her long time relationship with the esteemed Walt Taylor would not make me think of her as anti-shoeing.
George

[CookiePony]

...I have no idea what Dr Clayton's ideas are concerning [NBS] but her long time relationship with the esteemed Walt Taylor would not make me think of her as anti-shoeing.
George

Did you read what Happy Hooves wrote? "Clayton is a proponent of the natural barefoot trim is a friend of Gene Ovineck and Dr Bowker and does research with bowker. " (my emphasis)

[elctrnc]

why becuase hes a farrier and i asked his opnion on what he thought as regards to feet i found a few pics off one horse i have not all off them and i ahve been far to bissy to get photos when i have had more important things to think about as out of work
i shoudnt have to explain but i wll for you benefit--i have had to help my daughter keep her home due pratt of an x boyfreind who nearly cost her everything she has and her horses are now back home with me -- so i think my debs comes way before a flipping photo when shes got a little boy to support and all her x bloke has to pay is a fiver a week according to csa - so please her needs were more needy ---
but iwll get photos when i have the time

Gee, GLS, that sounds like a terrible situation. Just how DO you find the time to post on all these COTH threads? :rolleyes: Maybe you can take a moment to restrain yourself from responding to a thread and go take some pictures? Or how about you just post the photos that you sent to Rick? They should be handy on your computer, right?

and after your explianation makes perfect sense-- i after all arnt a farrier but i do know when a horse is foot sore if i dont know the reasons why

Well, look at this. So you CAN'T tell us why and how a horse will be lame...which is what I was asking in the other barefoot threads. And obviously you are wrong when you do say a horse is sore...case in point, this thread.

You aren't a farrier. Maybe you should stop giving opinions like they are fact (and that aren't even accurate) and leave the advice to the experts. I for one am interested in hearing the advice and seeing the work of REAL farriers. Not people who claim to know it all but don't have a clue of what they are talking about....oh, and who say they will post pictures and make up excuses as to why they can't.

[elctrnc]

George,
As Mr Stovall has often been known to say dressage doesn't demonstrate any signifcant athleticism. Is no reason most of them really couldn't compete barefoot so what's the point?


Maybe Mr. Stovall should post this on the Dressage board.

[Thomas_1]

George,
As Mr Stovall has often been known to say dressage doesn't demonstrate any signifcant athleticism. Is no reason most of them really couldn't compete barefoot so what's the point? :eek: Did he really say that?

I know he thinks dressage is as exciting as watching paint dry and is populated by dumbplods and has suggested its not exciting perfecting perfect circles nor so challenging for horses that are working at speed and/or require traction for such as serious competitive jumping. Even though I actually like dressage, I am inclined to agree with all that.

[JHUshoer20]

:eek: Did he really say that?

I know he thinks dressage is as exciting as watching paint dry and is populated by dumbplods and has suggested its not exciting perfecting perfect circles nor so challenging for horses that are working at speed and/or require traction for such as serious competitive jumping. Even though I actually like dressage, I am inclined to agree with all that.
Thomas,
I see you've also been reading some Stovallian literature:):cool:

Makes for fine reading anytime doesnt it?
George

[JHUshoer20]

Did you read what Happy Hooves wrote? "Clayton is a proponent of the natural barefoot trim is a friend of Gene Ovineck and Dr Bowker and does research with bowker. " (my emphasis)
Cookie,
I did indeed read what he wrote and responded to it.
George

[rcloisonne]

:eek: Did he really say that?
Yes, he really did and does on a regular basis. In his opinion, "if it doesn't run fast or jump high", it's not an athlete. I'm surprised you've missed it. ;)

[jack mac]

Jack,

You kinda picked the wrong expert to reference to dubunk natural hoofcare practices. Dr. Clayton is a proponent of the natural barefoot trim is a friend of Gene Ovineck and Dr Bowker and does research with bowker.

She puts her money where her mouth is and competes at the FEI level barefoot in a natural trim.

http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2006/12/dr-hilary-clayton-wins-two-national.html

This article pages 6-7 reviews the study of the natural trim old.cvm.msu.edu/dressage/articles/Annual%20Reports/2005%20Annual%20Report.pdfDid i ? i think you have mist the whole point & that is a horse needs his toe fronts & hinds & dumping of any horses toe beyond what was natural intended in its pristine state for that horses genetic make up is detrimental to the limbs of a healthy horse functioning properly. I posted it as what the study found in relationship to the limbs movement function & weight distribution in a stride & weather the toe plays apart or not. what Dr Clayton preserves to be in her opinion proper hoof care is just that an opinion, which is separate to & does in no way affect or contaminate the findings of the study on limb function, i find her hypothesis that setting premature break over is going to help the limb function better a series of bazaar contradiction to what the study reveled in relationship to proper function & makes a mockery of her hoof care hypothesis in relationship to that study, one can only hope that her hypothesis is a misunderstanding on her part to interpret the findings of that study & not a influenced contradiction in terms.;)

[JB]

is a horse needs his toe fronts & hinds & dumping of any horses toe beyond what was natural intended in its pristine state for that horses genetic make up is detrimental to the limbs of a healthy horse functioning properly.
Ohhhh, so THAT'S why they're called Natural Balance shoes! To put the Balance of the foot's breakover where it's Natural for that foot on that leg on that horse. Got it, thanks!

[2ndyrgal]

So if it was truly natural balance, then why does the horse NEED shoes? And the term farrier (no slam here to the good ones) is a term often applied to someone who just shoes/trims horses, without the appropriate knowledge. There are no licensing or even training requirements, just a truck, strong hands and uneducated clients. A good farrier helps each individual horse be naturally balanced, shoeing or trimming each individual foot on the end of each leg so the horse can perform properly and stay sound. Every horse is different, a good farrier knows this. My farrier is of the opinion, that unless I want to go galavanting on the tarmac, my horses will never need to be shod, their feet are excellent. On my big show horse, all four feet are different, he trims them to be as nature intended them and I've never had any problems at all. The NB debate is like Parelli training. Yes there are some good theories, but they cannot be applied in every case, but people not suitably trained. Sometimes a little knowledge is NOT a good thing.

[JB]

So if it was truly natural balance, then why does the horse NEED shoes?
Because of pictures like have been posted here - horses whose feet have been butchered with horrible trimming, and where a trim alone cannot put the breakover where it needs to be. There are other pathological reasons why a "rockered" breakover of the NB type would be desired, but not being a farrier, I won't go into that. I think Rick has done a decent job of that in previous posts on this thread.

And the term farrier (no slam here to the good ones) is a term often applied to someone who just shoes/trims horses, without the appropriate knowledge. There are no licensing or even training requirements, just a truck, strong hands and uneducated clients.
"Farrier" is someone who trims and applies shoes. It has no bearing on whether he can do it correctly or not. It also has no bearing on whether it's certified in anything. There are ample numbers of certified this-that-and-the-other, including AFA and CJF, who can't trim their way out of a box. Likewise, there are some who don't have any initials after their name who are a gift to horse-kind.

A good farrier helps each individual horse be naturally balanced, shoeing or trimming each individual foot on the end of each leg so the horse can perform properly and stay sound. Every horse is different, a good farrier knows this. My farrier is of the opinion, that unless I want to go galavanting on the tarmac, my horses will never need to be shod, their feet are excellent. On my big show horse, all four feet are different, he trims them to be as nature intended them and I've never had any problems at all.
yep, and the same can be said about trimmers, when talking just about trimming.

The NB debate is like Parelli training. Yes there are some good theories, but they cannot be applied in every case, but people not suitably trained. Sometimes a little knowledge is NOT a good thing.
Oh dear, you don't know how many times in these threads I've wanted to liken it to PNH!!! But I refrained, as I didn't want THAT trainwreck to start on top of these :winkgrin::lol:

[JHUshoer20]

Oh dear, you don't know how many times in these threads I've wanted to liken it to PNH!!! But I refrained, as I didn't want THAT trainwreck to start on top of these :winkgrin::lol:
Hey JB,
You certainly may do so.

A little entertainment value is always good:D
George

[jack mac]

Ohhhh, so THAT'S why they're called Natural Balance shoes! To put the Balance of the foot's breakover where it's Natural for that foot on that leg on that horse. Got it, thanks!WHOS balance? Certainly not the horses, i think it should be obvious to the most imbalanced person on this planet using basic scientific commonsense or even the principal's of Gods will, if it was where NBs guru Gene claim's break over to be, then after thousands of years of evolution or Gods will as some prefer, the hoof of a horse would of taken the shape of an NB shoe & all horses hooves would grow to that shape, don't you think JB its a bit odd for a horse to grow a hoof that is "not" in sink with were NBers clam break over should be?, your essentially saying to me & every body else on this forum & the planet is what you believe to be true, is that every horse is born with a break over issue being in the wrong place & should have there hooves dumped off & made the shape of an NB shoe in order to have that limb function in what you & your NBer crew claim to be balanced properly, can you just take that on board for 1 second & see how crazy that sounds

[Rick Burten]

So jack, why do those of us who actually are farriers, roll toes, rocker toes, square toes, blunt toes, on many of the shoes we apply? Can you honestly say that you have never done any of the above? Honestly?

How about the way you personally trim horses? Is that natural? That little mini you trimmed, how would that have been handled by nature? After all, that mini wasn't born that way either.

Why do we attempt with our skill, to imitate the wear patterns found in the hooves of either barefoot or shod horses?

Why do we use half-round shoes? Why do we use aluminum shoes that will quickly wear back to where the horse wants breakover to occur?

Why do we try to overcome underrun heels, club feet, flares, etc? After all, horse's aren't necessarily born with these are the? Or, are they?

Why do we try to align misaligned phalanges? Why do we try to correct angular limb deformities that some horses are born with? After all, that's "nature's way" too.

Why do you shoe racehorses? That wasn't nature's intent either(that horses be forced to run at high speeds on an oval track and sometimes over large and imposing obstacles.

Why do we ride horses at all? After all, they weren't born with a rider on their backs.

Don't we flount nature's way every time we feed horses or provide veterinary services to horses or haul horses around in a trailer?

Why do we selectively breed horses? That's not natural either.

Nope Jack, your arguments have quicksand as a foundation. The more you try and use your rhetoric to condemn that which you do not understand and have chosen to continue to remain ignorant about, the further your foundation sinks into a morass of your own making.

[jack mac]

Are you insinuating I'm not a blacksmith & farrier Rick? I most certainly am & a little more, you know this because your friend Barron would not of let me post on his forum in the farriers section if my first singing up was not vi-er my business email, i am friends with some or the farriers from the FF who know who i am ;) your choice was to not befriend me or engage in friendly debate, un like Tom Stovall a true gentleman who never had to once stoup to low remarks to get his point across & i must say proved him self time & time again to be a first class farrier who knows his profession & a bloke i would only to gladly shake his hand & be honored to have a beer with & be in his company & i would recommend him to any one in the equine industry ,because i know he know his profession inside & out, you need to learn from the example he sets Rick & get of your high horse that is in realty a little pony. the fundamentals that seems to keep eluding you rick & those entrenched in NB dogma is starting point for assessment, which is absolutely vitally critical & has to be & should always be the pristine example set in nature "& that does not mean damage in nature", with out that fundamental to guide you when you come across a hoof that has wondered from that or that you wish to change to perform a particular event to enhance the performance of that horse to perform the task , that is what you work from so you know wear your at & if need be can return to that & whether it made a difference of not, or hindered the horse, not recognizing that starting point is tantamount to negligence & is as good as sailing in the ocean with out a ruder. :yes:

[jack mac]

You see Rick its like this, When Mr stovall talks about a short lever & tells me it could be a good thing, i know exactly what his talk about straight away & i know he would be going off his assessment of the limb & the horses confirmation & that horse will have a pastern length bigger then Texas it self, so he already has the lever to get sufficient leverage to propel him down that track that's were you have to weigh up if it could be detrimental to his tendons & ligaments & sesamoids to keep this breed for speed only horse sound if that length isn't addressed & it a question of weighing it up, but that's racing & only when the horse is pushed to his limits & you want every bit for speed you can get but on the other hand you don't wont to risk breaking him down, & horses with pasterns that long are once in a blue moon jobs & there not the norm, that's why tom always says it depends & tom dose know the starting point is a pristine example of nature in a hoof, that's why he doesnt & wont support NB dogma & tom is not truly wrong that the limb plays more of a supporting roll mid race then it does at the start & the sprint home, the horse is collected mid race & just burling a long waiting to be given its head to stretch out & sprint home, now i know what toms saying because it rings true with someone who has more than enough experience under there belt to of earn worthy respect because his words tell me he has been there & done that, but you Rick your just a trigger happy Google Boy 100% jack gives you a Gold Star

[Rick Burten]

Are you insinuating I'm not a blacksmith & farrier Rick?
Take it any way you choose.
I most certainly am & a little more, you know this because your friend Barron would not of let me post on his forum in the farriers section if my first singing up was not vi-er my business email,
I know nothing of the sort. Folks have been known to use phony information or or other duplicitous means to gain access to those forums.
i am friends with some or the farriers from the FF who know who i am
Really? Who?
your choice was to not befriend me or engage in friendly debate,
You set the table, I came to dine.
un like Tom Stovall a true gentleman who never had to once stoup to low remarks to get his point across
You mean like the low remarks you routinely inject into most all of your posts, including this one?
& i must say proved him self time & time again to be a first class farrier who knows his profession & a bloke i would only to gladly shake his hand & be honored to have a beer with & be in his company & i would recommend him to any one in the equine industry ,because i know he know his profession inside & out, you need to learn from the example he sets Rick & get of your high horse that is in realty a little pony.
Perhaps it would be better if you followed some of your own advise.
the fundamentals that seems to keep eluding you rick & those entrenched in NB dogma is starting point for assessment, which is absolutely vitally critical & has to be & should always be the pristine example set in nature "& that does not mean damage in nature", with out that fundamental to guide you when you come across a hoof that has wondered from that or that you wish to change to perform a particular event to enhance the performance of that horse to perform the task , that is what you work from so you know wear your at & if need be can return to that & whether it made a difference of not, or hindered the horse, not recognizing that starting point is tantamount to negligence & is as good as sailing in the ocean with out a ruder.
Yet again, you prove both your intransigence and that you haven't a clue.

[Rick Burten]

that's why tom always says it depends & tom dose know the starting point is a pristine example of nature in a hoof,
You think Tom is the only one who routinely states "It Depends"? Interesting. And what is that "pristine example of nature in a hoof"? The hooves of the horses in arid, hard scrabble environments seem to be some different that those of horses living in soft, wet grass and mud terrain.
that's why he doesnt & wont support NB dogma
Actually, you are rather incorrect. Mr. Stovall's lack of support for NB is well rooted in his statement that the protocols fail to differentiate between front and hind limb purpose and use. But you already should have known that since you have read what he has written about his position. Whether or not he is correct in his opinion is grist for a different mill.
& tom is not truly wrong that the limb plays more of a supporting roll mid race then it does at the start & the sprint home,
Interesting. You're singing a different song now than you sang when that discussion was taking place at horseshoes.com. What's up with that?
but you Rick your just a trigger happy Google Boy 100% jack gives you a Gold Star
Whatever. Like I said before, Keep your gold star. Its worthless. Kinda like its presenter.

Where are those photos of your work you promised us? When are you going to answer the questions posed to you?

By the way jack, are you still maintaining the position that laminitis causes Cushings Syndrome? Or that diuretics should be given to a horse with edema in one limb? Or that Seedy Toe is incurable?

Just answer with a simple "yes" or "no".

[LMH]

Where is Mr Stovall? :sadsmile:

Hoof threads just aren't the same without him. :cry:

[JB]

un like Tom Stovall a true gentleman who never had to once stoup to low remarks to get his point across

Oh, REALLY LMAO now!!

if it was where NBs guru Gene claim's break over to be, then after thousands of years of evolution or Gods will as some prefer, the hoof of a horse would of taken the shape of an NB shoe & all horses hooves would grow to that shape,
What "shape" is that? I think you have it backwards, dear jack - where the breakover is put, whether by trimming or proper (get that - proper??) application of a shoe, is based on studies of countless horses, both wild and domestic, including the mechanics of the breakover of the limb.

don't you think JB its a bit odd for a horse to grow a hoof that is "not" in sink with were NBers clam break over should be?,
Given what I said above, you figure it out :)

your essentially saying to me & every body else on this forum & the planet is what you believe to be true, is that every horse is born with a break over issue being in the wrong place
LMAO! You are a master at this aren't you. I neither said, nor implied, any such thing.

& should have there hooves dumped off & made the shape of an NB shoe in order to have that limb function in what you & your NBer crew claim to be balanced properly, can you just take that on board for 1 second & see how crazy that sounds
MY NB crew? LMAO, again! Gosh my stomach is hurting now. I'm not even a farrier ;) Never claimed to be, don't want to put shoes on, I'll leave that to qualified farriers. I never said feet should be dumped, I never said that feet should be fit to the shoe. You, certainly above all else, should know that the shoe should be fit to how the foot needs to operate, and that includes putting breakover where it should be, putting heels where they should be, etc, etc, etc.

[goeslikestink]

Gee, GLS, that sounds like a terrible situation. Just how DO you find the time to post on all these COTH threads? :rolleyes: Maybe you can take a moment to restrain yourself from responding to a thread and go take some pictures? Or how about you just post the photos that you sent to Rick? They should be handy on your computer, right?



Well, look at this. So you CAN'T tell us why and how a horse will be lame...which is what I was asking in the other barefoot threads. And obviously you are wrong when you do say a horse is sore...case in point, this thread.

You aren't a farrier. Maybe you should stop giving opinions like they are fact (and that aren't even accurate) and leave the advice to the experts. I for one am interested in hearing the advice and seeing the work of REAL farriers. Not people who claim to know it all but don't have a clue of what they are talking about....oh, and who say they will post pictures and make up excuses as to why they can't.


am not a faiirer and nor are you,, and if you had read the presvious thread s and aanswers then the pony is sore -- all be it perhaps a different reason than mine but then i am not a farrier havent been trained as farrier or vet-- but my expreinces with horses tell me the horse is foot sore-- if you read ricks reply of which he gave full explantion then the pony has sore feet-

so am not wrong-- and iam entitled to my opnion the same as you are so please
dont tell me how to run my life and where i should post---- theres a good girl

[AnotherRound]

You always give a good show, Jack, I'll say that and not much else for you. :no:

[Tom Stovall]

LMH in gray

Where is Mr Stovall?

G'day counselor. I've been chasing the almighty dollar - retirement is not for the lazy and my boss is still a heartless bastard who has no use for slackers and ne'er-do-wells.

Hoof threads just aren't the same without him.

This'n is covering a lot of ground that's already been plowed over on horseshoes.com but I'm going to give it a shot. :)

[Tom Stovall]

JB in gray, deletia

where the breakover is put, whether by trimming or proper (get that - proper??) application of a shoe, is based on studies of countless horses, both wild and domestic, including the mechanics of the breakover of the limb.

You're kidding, right? Please cite any study that has determined the proper point at which breakover should be placed, whether by trimming or shoeing, for horses in use. In my experience, there is no single location that provides optimum biomechanical efficiency for both fronts and hinds; neither is there any single location that provides optimum biomechanical efficiency for every horse engaged in any single use, much less, every use.

If you feel there exists any "study" that suggests there exists any "proper" location for breakover of that is optimum for both ends of every horse engaged in every activity, please cite your source.

By the way, for more than 40 years, I've been telling folks that breakover is initiated during the fetlock ascending support phase of movement as the most palmar surface of the hoof begins to ascend and completed when the most distal portion of the hoof capsule is no longer in contact with the ground surface; i.e., immediately before the posterior portion of the swing phase: Does barefoot dogma differ?

[LMH]

YAY! And the hoof thread world was right again!:D

[Tom Stovall]

Natural Balance is a system based on the model of the feral foot in a dry, abrasive, environment - but feral horses do not carry weight, pull loads or engage in forced exercise. On the other hand, domestic horses do - and they do so in many varied environments. As I see it, attempting to impose the feral model on domestic horses in use is an inherently flawed process because the near infinite number of variables applicable to domestic horses immediately suggests that no single model could possibly provide maximum biomechanical efficiency for all horses in all uses.

Although the primary function of the fronts is support and that of hinds is propulsion, NB does not adequately differentiate between fronts and hinds. Most light horses operate most efficiently with short, aligned, upright, phalangeal levers on their fronts, but the same setup does not necessarily provide optimum biomechanical efficiency when applied to the hinds. The NB model can be successfully applied to the fronts of many horses and to some horses on both ends - but "many" does not imply "all," or even "most."

Natural balance does not consider use in its criteria for trimming/shoeing - but in the real world, use is often the primary criterion for trimming/shoeing; in fact, most successful trimming/shoeing is use-based. NB tends to focus on the foot, not the horse's use.

It's popular among NB proponents to claim that anyone who criticizes NB simply does not understand the process, and that any NB job that turns out less than satisfactory is the fault of the mechanic, not the process - but I find such arguments specious and firmly believe that illogic and self-fulfilling prophecies are the stuff of religion, not trimming/shoeing.

For me, "it depends" is the operative credo for trimming/shoeing anything from a pasture ornament to a stakes horse and the object of the exercise is always to give each horse whatever it needs to do whatever it does as best it possibly can. Personally, I don't give a damn about adhering to NB's feral model, any other model, the junkscience that pervades equid footcare, or the pronouncements of self-anointed gurus - even those with diploma mill PhDs. :)

[JB]

You're kidding, right? Please cite any study that has determined the proper point at which breakover should be placed, whether by trimming or shoeing, for horses in use.
Well gosh Tom, how do YOU determine where to place the breakover on any given foot? Where did YOU learn how to do it?

In my experience, there is no single location that provides optimum biomechanical efficiency for both fronts and hinds; neither is there any single location that provides optimum biomechanical efficiency for every horse engaged in any single use, much less, every use.
Well now, I didn't say there was either, did I :rolleyes:

If you feel there exists any "study" that suggests there exists any "proper" location for breakover of that is optimum for both ends of every horse engaged in every activity, please cite your source.
It's good to see you haven't changed at all, and aren't unlike good ol' jack - still putting words into people's mouths. Where did I say that the front and hind feet should be treated equally, and where I did I say that anything was a given for "every horse engaged in every activity"?

[elctrnc]

am not a faiirer and nor are you,, and if you had read the presvious thread s and aanswers then the pony is sore -- all be it perhaps a different reason than mine but then i am not a farrier havent been trained as farrier or vet-- but my expreinces with horses tell me the horse is foot sore-- if you read ricks reply of which he gave full explantion then the pony has sore feet-

so am not wrong-- and iam entitled to my opnion the same as you are so please
dont tell me how to run my life and where i should post---- theres a good girl

Of course you are entitled to your opinion (however incorrect it may be). Here's the difference GLS, and read it real slow: The difference is that YOU go on threads making claims about other people's trim and shoe jobs and *unequivocally* say that the horse is sore when you are not a farrier, trimmer, or hoof expert in ANY way. Do I do that? No.

Besides, you are even wrong in interpreting Rick's post. For the record, here is his actual quote. Rick says that he does not think the mini was sore afterwards. The bold emphasis below is mine.

In the same situation, I too would more than likely have removed that much hoof. There is good evidence that there is plenty of sole for the horse to stand on without pain. I would have balanced the foot a bit differently, and I would not have left the exposed laminae in contact with the ground, but basically, my trim would have looked quite similar to Jack's. I also feel that the mini was not sore after the trim or if he was, it was not because he was trimmed too short, rather the return to a more normal hoof length and balance might have caused some soft tissue(tendons/ligaments) inflammation as they adjusted from the incorrect hoof form and length to the more correct hoof form and length.

If you can't even reference a post accurately, how are we supposed to believe what you say?

Oh, and I'm not telling you how to run your life or where you should post, I'm telling you to fulfill the promises that you made on another thread. That would make YOU a good girl. :rolleyes:

[JHUshoer20]

Natural Balance is a system based on the model of the feral foot in a dry, abrasive, environment - but feral horses do not carry weight, pull loads or engage in forced exercise. On the other hand, domestic horses do - and they do so in many varied environments. As I see it, attempting to impose the feral model on domestic horses in use is an inherently flawed process because the near infinite number of variables applicable to domestic horses immediately suggests that no single model could possibly provide maximum biomechanical efficiency for all horses in all uses.

Although the primary function of the fronts is support and that of hinds is propulsion, NB does not adequately differentiate between fronts and hinds. Most light horses operate most efficiently with short, aligned, upright, phalangeal levers on their fronts, but the same setup does not necessarily provide optimum biomechanical efficiency when applied to the hinds. The NB model can be successfully applied to the fronts of many horses and to some horses on both ends - but "many" does not imply "all," or even "most."

Natural balance does not consider use in its criteria for trimming/shoeing - but in the real world, use is often the primary criterion for trimming/shoeing; in fact, most successful trimming/shoeing is use-based. NB tends to focus on the foot, not the horse's use.

It's popular among NB proponents to claim that anyone who criticizes NB simply does not understand the process, and that any NB job that turns out less than satisfactory is the fault of the mechanic, not the process - but I find such arguments specious and firmly believe that illogic and self-fulfilling prophecies are the stuff of religion, not trimming/shoeing.

For me, "it depends" is the operative credo for trimming/shoeing anything from a pasture ornament to a stakes horse and the object of the exercise is always to give each horse whatever it needs to do whatever it does as best it possibly can. Personally, I don't give a damn about adhering to NB's feral model, any other model, the junkscience that pervades equid footcare, or the pronouncements of self-anointed gurus - even those with diploma mill PhDs. :)
Excellent!!!
Is music to my ears!
Welcome Mr Stovall:D
George

[Tom Stovall]

JB in gray, my old stuff in brown

You wrote: "where the breakover is put, whether by trimming or proper (get that - proper??) application of a shoe, is based on studies of countless horses, both wild and domestic, including the mechanics of the breakover of the limb."

In response, I wrote: "You're kidding, right? Please cite any study that has determined the proper point at which breakover should be placed, whether by trimming or shoeing, for horses in use."

Well gosh Tom, how do YOU determine where to place the breakover on any given foot? Where did YOU learn how to do it?

Oops! In your haste to digress, obfuscate, and draw attention away from your rather silly statement, you've somehow neglected to support your claimed endorsement by authority (i.e., "studies of countless horses..."). Did you miss the underscored "any"?

As for myself, absent any pathologies, when considering the "proper" point for breakover, I consider each individual's conformation, front or hind, environment, and use. Doesn't everyone? Fortunately, I've got 50 years of experience and a continuing education to help me make the determination: How about yourself?

In my experience, there is no single location that provides optimum biomechanical efficiency for both fronts and hinds; neither is there any single location that provides optimum biomechanical efficiency for every horse engaged in any single use, much less, every use.

Well now, I didn't say there was either, did I :rolleyes:

Yes'm, you did! I guess you were just kidding when you wrote, "where the breakover is put, whether by trimming or proper (get that - proper??) application of a shoe, [B]is based on studies of countless horses, both wild and domestic, including the mechanics of the breakover of the limb." Unmodified, your statement is all encompassing, an absolute, it literally means "all horses."

It's good to see you haven't changed at all, and aren't unlike good ol' jack - still putting words into people's mouths.

If you mean I still don't suffer fools all that well, you're certainly correct.

Where did I say that the front and hind feet should be treated equally

LMAO! You failed to differentiate between fronts and hinds: Did you wish to do so now and claim it was an oversight?

and where I did I say that anything was a given for "every horse engaged in every activity"?

You didn't mention any specific horse or activity; since you didn't, the clear implication is all horses and all activities. I apologize if English is not your first language, but an unmodified statement is an absolute.

By the way, limbs don't breakover, hooves do. :)

[jack mac]

You think Tom is the only one who routinely states "It Depends"? Interesting. And what is that "pristine example of nature in a hoof"? The hooves of the horses in arid, hard scrabble environments seem to be some different that those of horses living in soft, wet grass and mud terrain.

Actually, you are rather incorrect. Mr. Stovall's lack of support for NB is well rooted in his statement that the protocols fail to differentiate between front and hind limb purpose and use. But you already should have known that since you have read what he has written about his position. Whether or not he is correct in his opinion is grist for a different mill.

Interesting. You're singing a different song now than you sang when that discussion was taking place at horseshoes.com. What's up with that?

Whatever. Like I said before, Keep your gold star. Its worthless. Kinda like its presenter.

Where are those photos of your work you promised us? When are you going to answer the questions posed to you?

By the way jack, are you still maintaining the position that laminitis causes Cushings Syndrome? Or that diuretics should be given to a horse with edema in one limb? Or that Seedy Toe is incurable?

Just answer with a simple "yes" or "no".let me say this google boy hormonal imbalances which alter the body's metabolism of protein & carbohydrates usually leads to cushing's syndrome in a horses, as for it being only tumour related then you would have to ask which came first the chicken or the egg, i kinda like to think it was the roster but I'm a male so that's obvious, as for the tumours being cause you can find them some times in or on the pituitary gland the adrenal gland , pancreas & even a tumour on the lung can cause it, or" no tumour at all" but one thing that i have correlated that in 99 % of cases i have come across the horse has had a laminitis episode in its life mild or other wise , personally i don't give two hoots what you think Google boy :yes:

[JB]

Oops! In your haste to digress, obfuscate, and draw attention away from your rather silly statement, you've somehow neglected to support your claimed endorsement by authority (i.e., "studies of countless horses..."). Did you miss the underscored "any"?
Gosh Tom, you know what, you're right. I'm just a little ol' trimmer who reads a lot and applies some of that to what I do. I don't keep records of what I read, I don't bookmark everything, I don't have countless books, I don't have memorized everything that anybody ever said that I have read. So you win. No, without going back to find who/what/where/when, I can't produce your desired evidence.

As for myself, absent any pathologies, when considering the "proper" point for breakover, I consider each individual's conformation, front or hind, environment, and use. Doesn't everyone? Fortunately, I've got 50 years of experience and a continuing education to help me make the determination: How about yourself?Well heavens, any decent, or better, trimmer or farrier does this. My question though was what do YOU use to determine this? Surely there are basic landmarks that exist in every horse's foot - maybe not in the same places, hence the variance in each trim of each foot. Obviously I don't know anything, so I'm deferring to you for this information.


Yes'm, you did! I guess you were just kidding when you wrote, "where the breakover is put, whether by trimming or proper (get that - proper??) application of a shoe, is based on studies of countless horses, both wild and domestic, including the mechanics of the breakover of the limb." Unmodified, your statement is all encompassing, an absolute, it literally means "all horses."That was your inference, sorry, not my implication.

LMAO! You failed to differentiate between fronts and hinds: Did you wish to do so now and claim it was an oversight?Oh good Lord, pretty soon you're going to demand that people differentiate breeds of horses too, since more than a few folks seem to think that drafts, for example, have to be trimmed and/or shod different from a light horse. YES, it was a freakin' oversight to not cross my t's and dot my i's for you. Happy? You'd better go back and read a bunch of these posts them, because a LOT of folks have discussed breakover, bars, heels, and whatnot, without reference to front or hind feet.

You didn't mention any specific horse or activity; since you didn't, the clear implication is all horses and all activities. I apologize if English is not your first language, but an unmodified statement is an absolute.Again, your inference, not my implication.

Say whatever further derogatory and condescending and snide remarks you wish, I won't see them. Not worth it, not any more. It's *almost* a little sad that the experience and knowledge that you do have is lost to so many people because you can't treat them as a human being, but then I don't worry because there ARE others who do, so I'll go learn from them. I realize that doesn't bother you in the least, so don't even bother to make a sarcastic comment on that either. Later.

[Tom Stovall]

JB in gray, deletia

Say whatever further derogatory and condescending and snide remarks you wish, I won't see them. Not worth it, not any more. It's *almost* a little sad that the experience and knowledge that you do have is lost to so many people because you can't treat them as a human being, but then I don't worry because there ARE others who do, so I'll go learn from them. I realize that doesn't bother you in the least, so don't even bother to make a sarcastic comment on that either.

Your call. I try to avoid the ad hominem stuff, but I really don't suffer fools all that well.

In the interest of accuracy, aside from a false claim of endorsement by authority (studies of countless horses...), the following statement contains a second error, which I've underscored.

where the breakover is put, whether by trimming or proper (get that - proper??) application of a shoe, is based on studies of countless horses, both wild and domestic, including the mechanics of the breakover of the limb.

Limbs don't "breakover", hooves do. If anyone else is considering humming the nonsensical "Farriers bad, trimmer good" mantra that sometimes appears to be obligatory on this forum, for goodness sake, learn a little bit about your subject matter. :)

[jack mac]

JB I boxed for almost 10 years ,no matter how good a fly weight thinks his hand speed & foot work is he should never climb in to the ring with a seasoned experienced heavy weight unless he's got a death wish & wants to be his bunching bag, if i was your corner man id be throwing the towel in & telling you to get the hell out of that ring while your still breathing, i should know Tom S has given me many a flogging on farriers forum .;)

[JHUshoer20]

JB I boxed for almost 10 years ,no matter how good a fly weight thinks his hand speed & foot work is he should never climb in to the ring with a seasoned experienced heavy weight unless he's got a death wish & wants to be his bunching bag, if i was your corner man id be throwing the towel in & telling you to get the hell out of that ring while your still breathing, i should know Tom S has given me many a flogging on farriers forum .;)
Jack,
Around here we say don't bring a knife to a gunfight:winkgrin:

When it comes to Mr Stovall I'd say dont throw rocks at a guy with a machine gun!
George

[Thomas_1]

let me say this google boy hormonal imbalances which alter the body's metabolism of protein & carbohydrates usually leads to cushing's syndrome in a horses, as for it being only tumour related then you would have to ask which came first the chicken or the egg, i kinda like to think it was the roster but I'm a male so that's obvious, as for the tumours being cause you can find them some times in or on the pituitary gland the adrenal gland , pancreas & even a tumour on the lung can cause it, or" no tumour at all" but one thing that i have correlated that in 99 % of cases i have come across the horse has had a laminitis episode in its life mild or other wise , personally i don't give two hoots what you think Google boy :yes:

How do you account for the fact that your theory is entirely different to the more accepted evidence?

What number does 99% represent?

How comes you're diagnosing tumours when you're a ??? Farrier/blacksmith??

[eruss]

a horse needs his toe fronts & hinds & dumping of any horses toe beyond what was natural intended in its pristine state for that horses genetic make up is detrimental to the limbs of a healthy horse functioning properly.

That's fine. But the NB balance shoe doesn't dump or set back the shoe boyond what was natural. If there is no distortion to the hoof capsule, the shoe will be perimeter fit. The shoe will be placed in the same position if there is distortion. Iow, the shoe is positioned off the bone, not distortion.

Jack, from reading some of your posts it seems you have more of a problem with the shape or shapeability of the shoes than the actual placement. And from your pics, you obviously believe you have to leave more heel.

[JHUshoer20]

That's fine. But the NB balance shoe doesn't dump or set back the shoe boyond what was natural. If there is no distortion to the hoof capsule, the shoe will be perimeter fit. The shoe will be placed in the same position if there is distortion. Iow, the shoe is positioned off the bone, not distortion.

eruss,
Check out the link Jack posted earlier. That job is what I'm seeing and following up on out there. One of the foremost nbs leaders is on record as saying they would never perimeter fit under any circumstances ever.

I hesitate to even use that term I normally say a "proper" fit as opposed to setting everything and anything back.
George

[eruss]

eruss,
Check out the link Jack posted earlier. That job is what I'm seeing and following up on out there. One of the foremost nbs leaders is on record as saying they would never perimeter fit under any circumstances ever.

I hesitate to even use that term I normally say a "proper" fit as opposed to setting everything and anything back.
George

There's so much stuff here, which post?

George, as a farrier I'm sure you have the knowledge to read and differentiate the good from the bad. When the leading nbs shoer says she won't fit the perimeter I think she meant there would be a rolled toe. Then again, if somebody dressed a foot "properly" for her, I think her entire thought on shoe shape would change.

[Happy_Hooves]

eruss,
One of the foremost nbs leaders is on record as saying they would never perimeter fit under any circumstances ever.
George

Huh?????

What NB "leader" are you refering to?

Both when I got to ride along with Gene Ovineck for a few weeks as his helper and at 7 of the clinics he gives on the road that I've attended I've observed him perimiter fit feet that have no distortion. Mostly using eventers or vulcans.

While riding with Patty Stiller we used eventers perimiter fit on feet without distortion.

David Nichols prefers the vulcans permiter fit on feet without distortion.

Rick burten perimiter fits feet without distortion. I'm not sure what shoe he favors.

I like to permiter fit feet without distortion and usually use eventers.

[jack mac]

How do you account for the fact that your theory is entirely different to the more accepted evidence?

What number does 99% represent?

How comes you're diagnosing tumours when you're a ??? Farrier/blacksmith??you forgot to figure in the little more :)
How do you account for the fact that your theory is entirely different to the more accepted evidence? There not looking at there feet & correlating it;) are you suggesting Tomas that metabolism isn't part of a laminitis episode & that hormone levels aren't unbalanced & damage resulting from it, if it wasn't the horses feet wouldn't take the direction they do;) , the 1% are horses that developed it after they were already diagnosed with melanoma prier or melanomas were present & the horse had never had a laminitic episode in its life ;)Im not twisting any ones arm just offering them to open there eyes & see the coraltion between the two :)

[Thomas_1]

you forgot to figure in the little more :)
How do you account for the fact that your theory is entirely different to the more accepted evidence? There not looking at there feet & correlating it;) I'm thinking that as you never actually answered the questions that its just some daft notion you had.
are you suggesting Tomas that metabolism isn't part of a laminitis episode & that hormone levels aren't imbalanced & damage resulting from it, if it wasn't the horses feet wouldn't take the direction they do;) Not sure what the question was there but I'll answer what I thought you asked. Metabolic changes are a factor. BUT NOT the predisposing or highest evident factor according to all the clinical research.

the 1% are horses that developed it after they were already diagnosed with melanoma prier or melanomas were present & the horse had never had a laminitic episode in its life ;) clear as mud

Im not twisting any ones arm just offering then to open there eyes & see the coraltion between the two :) I think I'll stick to the clinical evidence thanks. Its much easier on the eye and makes much more sense.

[eruss]

George, the shoes mentioned are all blunt toed shoes. Did you change the toes in them to fit perimeter?

One of the biggest questions you hear is "if the Nb shoe is so correct, why doesn't it look like the coffin bone"? Imo, that is a very good question.

[RAyers]

Im not twisting any ones arm just offering then to open there eyes & see the coraltion between the two :)

In the classic uneducated way many lay people like to think, CORRELLATION does NOT mean CAUSATION.

For example, if that were the case, then red hair causes light skin. No, red hair is correlated to fair skin, however the genetic make up dictates skin color so there are light skinned brunettes and the like.

In my work I have found certain heavy metals associated with a nasty disease. However, there are other factors involved so we are not sure of the actual cause of the disease. We just know that there is a correllation that may or MAY NOT mean the metals casue the disease.

If you choose to make biologic diagnosies based on correllation, you will be wrong most times.

Reed

[JHUshoer20]

There's so much stuff here, which post?
This thread page 4 #63
Is a link from Horseshoes. Check it out.
George

[eruss]

This thread page 4 #63
Is a link from Horseshoes. Check it out.
George

Its a post between Jaye Perry and some horse owner. I don't understand.

[JHUshoer20]

Its a post between Jaye Perry and some horse owner. I don't understand.
Read the whole thread paying particular attention to the pics of the shoeing job. THAT is what I see and evidently Jack sees as a typical nbs job.
George

[eruss]

This thread page 4 #63
Is a link from Horseshoes. Check it out.
George

somebody applied too small a shoe on. what's your point?

George, your within driving distance. I'd be happy to apply a shoe to NB protocol and listen to why you disagree with it. Although I think you'd change your tune when its not applied to a speed horse or the hind end.

[eruss]

Read the whole thread paying particular attention to the pics of the shoeing job. THAT is what I see and evidently Jack sees as a typical nbs job.
George

What am I looking at. The medial heel of the shoe doesn't even reach the heel. Where in the Nb guidelines does it say the shoe shouldn't reach the heels?

Hey George forget pictures. The Nb shoe should be positioned to as if there was no distortion. Are you suggesting shoes should be fit to distortion?

[JHUshoer20]

somebody applied too small a shoe on. what's your point?

George, your within driving distance. I'd be happy to apply a shoe to NB protocol and listen to why you disagree with it. Although I think you'd change your tune when its not applied to a speed horse or the hind end.
Not likely,
Their propensity to put shoe across sole I'll never agree with. As to point the hoof was mangled as if shod with a buzz saw and it crippled the horse.

Shoe too small is SOP with most of the jobs I see.

I might concede that in certain limited circumstances that style could be helpful on the front end such as certain types of lameness etc. I wouldn't do it on a performance horse or a working horse or a heavy horse etc. The setting back especially in regards to toe flares and distortions is how a lot of guys always shod anyway. Just didnt have a fancy name for it.

That only goes for setting shoes back. I'd never use those third world sweat shop manufactured shoes on anything. Is nothing they can do that a different shoe cant do better.
George

[jack mac]

That's fine. But the NB balance shoe doesn't dump or set back the shoe boyond what was natural. If there is no distortion to the hoof capsule, the shoe will be perimeter fit. The shoe will be placed in the same position if there is distortion. Iow, the shoe is positioned off the bone, not distortion.

Jack, from reading some of your posts it seems you have more of a problem with the shape or shapeability of the shoes than the actual placement. And from your pics, you obviously believe you have to leave more heel.your kidding right:( do you even know what a distorted hoof capsule looks like:no: of course you don't because you would be throwing those NB shoe in the scrap, there are two things that make up the natural shape of a horses hoof one is the size & shape of the coronet & by that i mean one that hasn't been altered by contraction of the heels , the second is the size of the pedal bone theses to factors determine natural shape the other factor that comes in to the mix is the length of the pastern, long pasterns result in what are termed as false heels, meaning the heels are more forwards & less up right & full as a horse with a shorter pastern, what i see being done by both the NBers & the BFT is lowering heels far far to low in attempt to make them look cosmetically wider then topping it off by paring out to much protective sole & paring frog back so they dry out & shrivel to give the hoof a more aesthetic look to the eye the list goes on of the nonsense i see on here about proper hoof care, I'm sorry iv had enough of trying to save horses from there ignorant owners & doggie farriers, lets talk about the weather (whether I'm wasting my time on here helping the lost sheep find there way):yes:

[JB]

JB I boxed for almost 10 years ,no matter how good a fly weight thinks his hand speed & foot work is he should never climb in to the ring with a seasoned experienced heavy weight unless he's got a death wish & wants to be his bunching bag, if i was your corner man id be throwing the towel in & telling you to get the hell out of that ring while your still breathing, i should know Tom S has given me many a flogging on farriers forum .;)

Ahhh, I get it now. Us little people aren't worth being treated civilly - to discuss matters, to correct mis-uses of terms, to correct misunderstandings of theories, etc, without belittling us. Gotcha.

[jack mac]

I'm thinking that as you never actually answered the questions that its just some daft notion you had.
Not sure what the question was there but I'll answer what I thought you asked. Metabolic changes are a factor. BUT NOT the predisposing or highest evident factor according to all the clinical research.

clear as mud

I think I'll stick to the clinical evidence thanks. Its much easier on the eye and makes much more sense.you do that Gobin;) for those who think I'm on the turps again with that statement? Gobins , Google boys side kick :lol:

[eruss]

[QUOTE=JHUshoer20;2970357]Not likely,
Their propensity to put shoe across sole I'll never agree with. As to point the hoof was mangled as if shod with a buzz saw and it crippled the horse.

I and many others can prove the sole can support weight.

Shoe too small is SOP with most of the jobs I see.

Maybe so, but it is not Nb sop.

I might concede that in certain limited circumstances that style could be helpful on the front end such as certain types of lameness etc. I wouldn't do it on a performance horse or a working horse or a heavy horse etc. The setting back especially in regards to toe flares and distortions is how a lot of guys always shod anyway. Just didnt have a fancy name for it.

If you take out the distortion, its not actually setting the shoe back. You can certainly dress the toe wall back so its parallel with p3. some of us don't feel removing that much horn it a good thing. Maybe you don't like the rolled toe. If that's the case I'd imagine you would put borium on all your shoe so they don't wear.

Make up your mind George, do you like to use toe extensions? Or do you feel there should be borium at the toe to prevent wear? I know I know, you'd rather discuss this with Patty, because I actually use common sense.

[eruss]

[QUOTE=jack mac;2970359]your kidding right do you even know what a distorted hoof capsule looks like of course you don't because you would be throwing those NB shoe in the scrap,

I already threw them in the scrap. Anytime you want to talk shoe shape and distortion, I'm ready. We can start with those pics of your shoes if you want. Talk about not know where to put a bend in a shoe. Why don't you just put your heels in a turning cam, there so far back already what's it matter?

[jack mac]

In the classic uneducated way many lay people like to think, CORRELLATION does NOT mean CAUSATION.

For example, if that were the case, then red hair causes light skin. No, red hair is correlated to fair skin, however the genetic make up dictates skin color so there are light skinned brunettes and the like.

In my work I have found certain heavy metals associated with a nasty disease. However, there are other factors involved so we are not sure of the actual cause of the disease. We just know that there is a correllation that may or MAY NOT mean the metals casue the disease.

If you choose to make biologic diagnosies based on correllation, you will be wrong most times.

ReedSMOKE IT UP BIG, IN FACT HAVE A CIGAR ;)

[jack mac]

[QUOTE]

I already threw them in the scrap. Anytime you want to talk shoe shape and distortion, I'm ready. We can start with those pics of your shoes if you want. Talk about not know where to put a bend in a shoe. Why don't you just put your heels in a turning cam, there so far back already what's it matter?are you shoeing horses or donkeys because donkeys heels are straight, i get it your shoeing your horses like a donkey;)

[JHUshoer20]

[QUOTE]

I and many others can prove the sole can support weight.
Of course it can and does. But not a horseshoe across it crushing the cicumflex artery. A shoe is nothing more than an artificial extension of hoofwall. This is why we seat them out to relieve sole pressure. Sole pressure is always wrong.



If you take out the distortion, its not actually setting the shoe back. You can certainly dress the toe wall back so its parallel with p3. some of us don't feel removing that much horn it a good thing. Good on you then. And I hope you don't do every horse the same Maybe you don't like the rolled toe. If that's the case I'd imagine you would put borium on all your shoe so they don't wear. I have no problem with rolled toes. Use them and rockers quite a bit. Matter of fact set a shoe on properly and give the horse a few weeks he'll roll his own toe. I hate Borium. Here in Pennsylvania the people are somewhat obsessed with it. I find that when using it usually just the heels will suffice in most cases. When traction increasing devices are necessary their necessary though.

Make up your mind George, do you like to use toe extensions? Or do you feel there should be borium at the toe to prevent wear? I know I know, you'd rather discuss this with Patty, because I actually use common sense.
No actually I'd rather discuss it with you if truth be told for that reason. She's pretty insane with this stuff.

[eruss]

[QUOTE=jack mac;2970359]there are two things that make up the natural shape of a horses hoof one is the size & shape of the coronet & by that i mean one that hasn't been altered by contraction of the heels , the second is the size of the pedal bone theses to factors determine natural shape the other factor that comes in to the mix is the length of the pastern, long pasterns result in what are termed as false heels, meaning the heels are more forwards & less up right & full as a horse with a shorter pastern,
How about angle of the pastern. Are you suggesting the point of origin has nothing to do with the heel? If the point of origin is the same but the heel is forward, how'd it get there?

what i see being done by both the NBers & the BFT is lowering heels far far to low in attempt to make them look cosmetically wider

I don't know what anybody else it doing. I lower heels (bring them back) to reduce excessive growth.

[JHUshoer20]

[QUOTE]

I already threw them in the scrap. Anytime you want to talk shoe shape and distortion, I'm ready. We can start with those pics of your shoes if you want. Talk about not know where to put a bend in a shoe. Why don't you just put your heels in a turning cam, there so far back already what's it matter?Wait a minute, what shoes you talking about?
George

[eruss]

[QUOTE=eruss;2970401]are you shoeing horses or donkeys because donkeys heels are straight, i get it your shoeing your horses like a donkey;)

The widest part of the foot is a the bridge (coa). Take a look at an xray of a non distorted foot. Then take a look at you shoes. If you want a toe extention the build a shoe with a toe extension in it. Or say why you think its a good idea to have hoof capsule distortion.

[eruss]

[QUOTE=JHUshoer20;2970434]Of course it can and does. But not a horseshoe across it crushing the cicumflex artery.

Show me a properly positioned shoe that is over top the circumflex artery. Nbs certainly isn't.

A shoe is nothing more than an artificial extension of hoofwall. This is why we seat them out to relieve sole pressure.

Does that mean your applying beveled shoes to every horse? You seat them out because you take the toe too short. Again, I'll prove it any day you like.

Sole pressure is always wrong.

duh!

[jack mac]

[QUOTE]
How about angle of the pastern. Are you suggesting the point of origin has nothing to do with the heel? If the point of origin is the same but the heel is forward, how'd it get there?



I don't know what anybody else it doing. I lower heels (bring them back) to reduce excessive growth.that's the problem with you NB it doesn't take the length of pasterns or shape of the coronet in to account it puts break over in the same place regardless of all the variables what i find amazing with all theses pic i see displayed is 80% are all wedged, padded & sole packed, but i suppose if you shoe a horse like a donkey you have to expect that.:winkgrin:

[Rick Burten]

Just one simple question for you to answer Jack.

What is the trigger for the formation of a ,tumor leading to cushings syndrome, on the pituitary gland?

[eruss]

[QUOTE=JHUshoer20;2970434]I have no problem with rolled toes. Use them and rockers quite a bit. Matter of fact set a shoe on properly and give the horse a few weeks he'll roll his own toe.

Then you don't have a problem with the placement of a NB shoe. Or you don't understand it. Its one of the two. After a couple weeks, a shoe placed properly becomes NB protocol with the rolled toe. Which is why I give Gene a lot of credit with is Nb stuff. But at the same time, its been being done by good farriers for a long time. (same with the trimming and everything else)

[eruss]

[QUOTE=eruss;2970401]Wait a minute, what shoes you talking about?
George

I threw the Nb shoes in the scrap pile. Actually i gave them away. I think there too tough to shape to the foot I trimmed and dressed. (as always it depends).

And Jacks hind shoes. They look very nice. But if you want to get technical, the heel quarter bends are back way too much. Easily proven with a xray.

[jack mac]

[QUOTE]




I don't know what anybody else it doing. I lower heels (bring them back) to reduce excessive growth. well that will do it, I'm surprised they will grow at all with that treatment continual treatment, iv heard some silly statements by JB in the last two days , but this one has to win tool of the week 100% jack give you a Gold Star. yes folks we have a Winne:lol:

[JHUshoer20]

[QUOTE]

Show me a properly positioned shoe that is over top the circumflex artery. Nbs certainly isn't. At his Rochester lecture Dr Butler showed that it was. That job in the thread you looked at was certainly close if not right on it.



Does that mean your applying beveled shoes to every horse? You seat them out because you take the toe too short. Again, I'll prove it any day you like.
Not sure what you mean by beveled. Seated out bearing surface to relieve sole pressure. Yes, on all fours, definitely. Doesnt mean toe is too short. Is how it's done. You never would have gotten your CJF appelation without doing it too.
George

[eruss]

[QUOTE=eruss;2970442]that's the problem with you NB it doesn't take the length of pasterns or shape of the coronet in to account it puts break over in the same place regardless of all the variables what i find amazing with all theses pic i see displayed is 80% are all wedged, padded & sole packed, but i suppose if you shoe a horse like a donkey you have to expect that.:winkgrin:

I agree, we see very few pics of our everyday shoeing. At least I find it very hard to believe that everybodies putting wedges on every horse they shoe. I have very few horses with wedges. The ones that get it the most are the ones with upright pasterns, to allign the bony collumn. The hpa on long sloping pasterns usually allign fairly well, imo.

[jack mac]

[QUOTE=JHUshoer20;2970444]

I threw the Nb shoes in the scrap pile. Actually i gave them away. I think there too tough to shape to the foot I trimmed and dressed. (as always it depends).

And Jacks hind shoes. They look very nice. But if you want to get technical, the heel quarter bends are back way too much. Easily proven with a xray.may be you best have a look inside a hoof, last time i looked there was a little more in there than just bone .:yes:

[eruss]

[QUOTE=eruss;2970442] well that will do it, I'm surprised they will grow at all with that treatment continual treatment, iv heard some silly statements by JB in the last two days , but this one has to win tool of the week 100% jack give you a Gold Star. yes folks we have a Winne:lol:

haha! Considering I didn't comment on how far I lower a heel. Just that I remove excess growth. You should give yourself a gold medal again.

[jack mac]

[QUOTE=jack mac;2970471]

I agree, we see very few pics of our everyday shoeing. At least I find it very hard to believe that everybodies putting wedges on every horse they shoe. I have very few horses with wedges. The ones that get it the most are the ones with upright pasterns, to allign the bony collumn. The hpa on long sloping pasterns usually allign fairly well, imo.whats your understanding of articulation of joints because that's as flawed as it comes destroying hooves to line up bones, crazy science full stop.:yes:

[JHUshoer20]

Then you don't have a problem with the placement of a NB shoe. Or you don't understand it.
Come on Eric spare me that. Thats cult follower talk. I fit shoes to feet not feet to shoes. And I dont lay shoes across sole. Thats what it's all about.
George

[Tom Stovall]

JB in gray

Ahhh, I get it now.

No ma'am, you don't.

Us little people aren't worth being treated civilly

Civility is a two way street. Did the "little people" elect you spokesperson? If not, it appears you're trying to add weight to your words by implying endorsement by popular attitudes. (That particular logical fallacy is called argumentum ad populum and it's not often seen outside of middle school debates.) That said, if you want to learn a little something about horses' feet, I respectfully suggest you cease humming the barefoot mantra as a preface to your questions.

- to discuss matters, to correct mis-uses of terms, to correct misinderstandings of theories, etc. Gotcha.

If you want discussion, familiarize yourself with the subject matter as best you can and leave the ad hominem stuff out. Or, you can carry on with your usual, "Farrier bad, trimmer good," nonsense.

Your call. :)

[eruss]

[QUOTE=JHUshoer20;2970505][QUOTE=eruss;2970461] At his Rochester lecture Dr Butler showed that it was. That job in the thread you looked at was certainly close if not right on it.

Am I an Nbs guru? Why do you keep pointing that shoeing job out to me? Its set too far back and doesn't cover the heels. I'm sure it was covering the artery.


Not sure what you mean by beveled.

A beveled shoe will be safed at the same angle as the wall. A true extension of the hoof capsule.

Seated out bearing surface to relieve sole pressure.

If there is enough sole depth there should be no pressure.

never would have gotten your CJF appelation without doing it too.

There were rules and I followed them.

[eruss]

[QUOTE=eruss;2970511]whats your understanding of articulation of joints because that's as flawed as it comes destroying hooves to line up bones, crazy science full stop.:yes:

hpa- hoof pastern allignment.

[jack mac]

I don't know what anybody else it doing. I lower heels (bring them back) to reduce excessive growth. what so they don't grow consistently with the rest of the hoof ,yer that's balanced :lol:

[eruss]

[QUOTE=JHUshoer20;2970524] I fit shoes to feet not feet to shoes.

It all comes down to dressing a hoof. If you dress the wall so its parallel with p3 then you can fit shoes to feet. If you leave wall thickness and distortion you have to set the shoe back. Otherwise its called a toe extension.

And I dont lay shoes across sole.

That depends. In moisture rich locations you can do just fine laying a shoe across the sole. From what I hear, in dry arid environments it not a good idea.

[eruss]

I don't know what anybody else it doing. I lower heels (bring them back) to reduce excessive growth. what so they don't grow consistently with the rest of the hoof ,yer that's balanced :lol:

There's a little more to it than that. Are you suggesting they grow at the same rate but to only take excessive toe and not excessive heel? That's dumb.

[JHUshoer20]

[QUOTE]

It all comes down to dressing a hoof. If you dress the wall so its parallel with p3 then you can fit shoes to feet. If you leave wall thickness and distortion you have to set the shoe back. Otherwise its called a toe extension.
That's called a proper trim. Why in the world would you leave distortions and flares as if it were a proper way to do things?
George

[jack mac]

[QUOTE]

It all comes down to dressing a hoof. If you dress the wall so its parallel with p3 then you can fit shoes to feet. If you leave wall thickness and distortion you have to set the shoe back. Otherwise its called a toe extension.



That depends. In moisture rich locations you can do just fine laying a shoe across the sole. From what I hear, in dry arid environments it not a good idea.realy i live on one of the driest continents on the planet that's not what i find & hell if it rains or i ride my horse though a creek or it decided to take a drink from the dam i have to race down there & pull those suckers off ,i only hand out one trophy a week but i may have to make an exception on your part .:D

[jack mac]

There's a little more to it than that. Are you suggesting they grow at the same rate but to only take excessive toe and not excessive heel? That's dumb.I'm stoping know Eric, its not fun anymore I'm felling crul :o

[eruss]

[QUOTE=eruss;2970562] That's called a proper trim. Why in the world would you leave distortions and flares as if it were a proper way to do things?
George

Like I said earlier, dressing all the hoof wall away isn't always a good thing.

[eruss]

I'm stoping know Eric, its not fun anymore I'm felling crul :o

I know, you and George are fighting a losing battle. Get back on horsshoes and go at it with Patty. You apparentlyl have problems with none NB shoers. :cool:

[JHUshoer20]

I know, you and George are fighting a losing battle. Get back on horsshoes and go at it with Patty. You apparentlyl have problems with none NB shoers. :cool:
Jack will be back there soon enough. Mr Stovall pretty much cleaned house on this thread a bit earlier and since then the only one amusing himself by stirring the pot with this has been you!:lol:
George

[jack mac]

This is the thoroughbred those shoes that were siting on my anvil were for just a bit of his history he was tripped out for 8 months to give him a rest as he was over heated on grain grazing up in the hills running wild did him good his feet were a bit of a mess & he was easy to catch because he was getting around like a cat on a hot tin roof ;) here's a few picks of one of his fronts ill post one of the hinds after you trendsetters have picked & kicked them around a bit. PS don't blame me for the quality of the picks, i had a hard enough time getting the owner to take some of them & was rushed taking the others "o" & the shoes were fitted cold, its fire season cant light a forge in the open specially not in the great dividing range or you will end up in gail ;)http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0645.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0650.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0653.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0654.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0655.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0657.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0658.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0660.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0661.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0662.jpg
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg109/johnneymac/100_0664.jpg

[goeslikestink]

jac mac-- look like the side of wall took a beating as splite on the sole
so shoes would help to support that understand that bit
but why have you 1 - off centered the toe clip
2-- not seated it
3- as its off center and being that thoe horse
has big chips and sides of the foot both sides-- but the side the clips on is much worse
and on the photos once done can still see where the horn would rip or turn upwards and chip off-- what the reason for off centered toe clip
am asking a question
as i do know toe cliips should be seated as have them on my horses shoes well most are shod over here that way- side clips
and toe clips--