American Sportpony Breeders Uniting-AmericanRidingPony.com- The site is up!

[MagicRoseFarm]

I recently bought the web address for American Riding Pony.com with the plans to start an informational website oriented toward uniting North American Sportpony breeders in an effort to improve our market and gain recognition for these smaller superathletes.

the American Riding Pony (http://www.americanridingpony.com) site is up!! I have put my own boy on the stallion page to help get the ball rolling.

We are starting to compile a links page of breeders, trainers and other individuals , a stallion listing, links page,a national level news page, and a calendar page listing shows holding sportpony classes and whatever else can be done with the help of others. There are others helping to work on pages , so we are happy to recieve everyone's info.

We are very open to suggestions, need your input, and are hopeful this will help us all in the developement of our American programs and a bigger, better American sportpony market.

[alliekat]

What a great idea!!!!

[Daydream Believer]

Count me in! That is a great idea!

[elly]

What can we do to help ?

Elly

[pintopiaffe]

whoohoooo!!!

If I can help at all, let me know. Winter is my down time, when I spend waaaay too much time on the computer!

[goodpony]

Well done, we'd like to help too...keep us posted as things progress!

[Gindarkh]

Great idea, and thanks for your initiative !!

[pwynnnorman]

As usual, I would fully support this. MagicRose, you indicated, "We are very open to suggestions, need your input..." So....

I think we could help you by sending you pictures that illustrate the desirability, range, talent, cuteness--whatever--of the American Riding Pony. Also, testimonials (with pictures) from both children and adults --and professionals, too, if possible -- about their experiences on APRs. Profiles of ponies who have reached the top, however "the top" would be defined. If possible, stuff on great campaigners when they were younger and just "decent ponies," too (to show that even top campaigners came from somewhere and were developed, not necessarily "hatched" or bought to go straight into the winners circle). An annotated breeders list, IMO, is better than just a list (annotated means each item includes a summary of something--goals, best results, unique qualities, general offerings...). A resource list of agents, trainers or riders might also be useful in making the site the "go-to" place for folks who support or want to support the concept. And, of course, classified ads to help attract the traffic. Brainstorming on how to increase the site's positioning on search engines would advance its prospects a lot, too. Good luck!

BTW, "Show, Don't Tell" is the overall advice I'd give you. Recent internet research has shown that images are critical factors for promoting sites that feature visual subjects. Text-heavy sites (telling, rather than showing) don't get anywhere near as many repeat visits. And big images (but optimized for quick loading time) and close-ups have also been found to produce more clicks on links than thumbnails (again, this is for visual subjects--not all subjects).

And if you ever need someone to do scuttwork, I'm not one to just talk -- ask if/when/should you need.

[butlerfamilyzoo]

Awesome ideas Pwyn!

Not limited to being a search and tell all about american riding ponies, i would like to see this do some advertising, possibly in the big magazines, etc, to draw in "big horse" people that otherwise do not glance in our direction.

Of course to do that, it would have to be funded in some way... Either a fee to be listed as a breeder/trainer/owner, or a fee for classifeds. I'm sure advertising on such a large scale will take some time so the funds can build... And i'm not sure if people would be willing to take a chance and pay a fee, even a small one... I would, but dont know others thoughts on that.

I would also like to see this maybe sponsor, or help to sponsor more pony classes at the larger shows, or even smaller shows, classes that are open to adults too! I really see the sport pony boom targeting smaller women more than kids, but just my thoughts...

Year end awards of some kind?

Classifieds are great and easy. I agree with getting high up on the search engines, but that also takes money if you want to be at the very top, or highlighted...

I think the biggest issue is going to be keeping the money coming in to support the efforts.

Something like the Arabian Sport Horse people are doing with their stallion/get payback program that gives pay-outs at nationals... That might be a neat idea for something like this? Bring in extra funds and use them for advertising for the stallion owners who donate? Or fund a year end award/pay-out to the top producing american riding pony, one who's foals accumulated so many points in their show season for the year? I dont know...

Just some of the thoughts swirling in my head. Please feel free everyone to build on them. I think at this point in time, all the ideas we can throw out there are much needed!

[SportNCurls]

You can count me in to help, and for ideas.. I have been mulling over something similar to this for some time! also.. I am not all that far away from you MagicRose so we can do lunch sometime ;)

Amy

[Lesley Feakins]

Great idea, Wendy. A few years ago a group of us tried to get a similar site started.
We got quite far along and has some great ideas and a site up but didn't get it to the point where it went live. Personally, I think we were ahead of the curve. We had some identity issues that we just could get past, plus there were 12 of us (I think) and to get that many people to agree was a challenge. If I can help let me know.

[Mel0309]

Just curious on how you are defining the "American Riding Pony" - is it like the BRP, the GRP, Aust. RP, etc? or something different. Is any breed allowed or only certain. Will it be a registry or just a club or group? I would be interested but would like to know more about the vision.

[butlerfamilyzoo]

An American Riding Pony is a pony in America that is doing sportpony events, ei. jumping, dressage, eventing, driving, etc...

This is NOT another registry. All pony breeds and mixes of those breeds are allowed.

I would define this as more of a "group" to help promote the american sportponies in the US, be it welsh, connemara, GRP, ASP, or even POA... So long as it is on American soil, it deserves to be respresented. Much like the Midwest Breeders Group, they are not locked on one breed, but promote several breeds in the Midwest that are doing sport events.

If we could get a large enough group to come together, regardless of their breed preferences, I see this as a super oportunity to increase our American ponies marketablility. To reach those who are not thinking of buying ponies because "big" is the standard in their eyes, but to show them that there are several ponies of all breeds in the US that are making a big impression in the show ring, most competing against the big horses because there are not enough pony classes available.

Thats how i define this "group" anyway. Others, feel free to add on to help clarify.

[MagicRoseFarm]

I am absolutely NOT interested in another registry.

My vision is to assist those already breeding American Sportpony or riding pony types in the US , regardless of breed, who are capable of competing at the higher levels in their disciplines, with an educational and national marketing program.

[ljshorses]

Definitely count me in as long as it isn't affiliated with an already up and running program. I am not interested if it is only for AWR and ASPR ponies. I have some very nice RPSI sport ponies and know many others that show Welsh and Welsh crosses that prefer not to be apart of AWR/ASPR but want a group to be members of and share ideas, help and promote all ponies doing sport. It's a fantastic idea and it would also be great if we could end up with sponsored classes at shows for Ponies in Sport. I tried last year to sponsor a "generic" Sport Pony class at Fair Hill Dressage and DAD but was told that it has to be affiliated with an organization of some type (help me out on this Lori K, hope I understood that correctly). I think that if you have an organization or club then you can have classes? I will offer to sponsor and buy ribbons and awards for classes at both DAD and Fair Hill if we it can be up in running in time.

[MagicRoseFarm]

Until the USDF can be convinced to allow a division open to sportponies of all breeds, I do not believe there will be a class of this type.

IBC classes may be held by a show, but I believe the IBC divisions/classes are determined by the USDF and the participation of the affiliated association in the USDF All Breeds Program for that competition year.

You say you have RPSI ponies but the RPSI classifies itself as a German Riding Pony... so it does not promote the many years invested by many in American pony breeding programs of sporttypes. Here is where I am finding great difficulty in defining AMERICAN for the purpose of promoting the future of American Riding Ponies... and herein lies a trainwreck none of us wants.

[ljshorses]

I thought you were talking about promoting American bred sport ponies. Sorry, I misunderstood. What I was thinking was putting American Breds such as Welsh, Part Welsh, Connemara, RPSI, OldNA, ASPR etc... sport ponies in an organization or club. Any that were bred in America that is. If that happens I would love to support a class at both shows. I think it would be great to include all American breds and all American breeders of sport ponies. No trainwreck thought of on my part, just truly wanting to support American Pony breeders of all breeds and affiliations. Also, what Otto at RPSI says is German Riding Pony Type, not a German Riding Pony. I think it is the type of pony that we agree on promoting.

[MagicRoseFarm]

Lori can correct me if wrong, but I think a class of that sort has to be first addressed by the USDF , before it can be addressed by a show.

The USDF open classes at this point are just that, all encompassing open classes..

I think it IS possible to give a High Point American Bred Pony Award.

I believe Lori put a great deal of research and approval into the Born In the USA awards and will know the ins and outs on any of this.

[exvet]

My vision is to assist those already breeding American Sportpony or riding pony types in the US , regardless of breed, who are capable of competing at the higher levels in their disciplines, with an educational and national marketing program.

So would this be open to those of us who have a breed or program that produces stock that can fall in the never, neverland zone of heights, ie, a few who fall in the 14.2+ - 15 hand range? I have everything from 14 hands to 15.2 with 3 being definitely pony (14.2 or below/147 cm or below) and most being welsh. My one stallion is the largest but is likely to produce smaller. My program is performance based as much as it is breed based with the focus being dressage. Those of us who find less support with marketing along the "sport" performance venues in regards to "our" breed registry(ies) would be interested in such a program if it were inclusive of our stock (same breeding but outside the 14.2 hand cut off). I (and my daughter) compete them all against the big guys and they definitely hold their own.

[MagicRoseFarm]

Copied from the RPSI Rulebook:

B.V.8 Breeding Program For German Riding Ponies
§ 508a Breeding aim incl. breed marks
(Acc. to the breeding organization rules § 1a no. 2 b) and d))
The following general breeding aim is available for the breeding of the
German Riding Pony:
Breed: German Riding Pony
Origin Germany
Size about 13.2 hh – 14.2 hh (138 cm - 148 cm)
Colors All
Appearance
Type
Desirable: An elegant, big-framed and harmonical .........

and here is where the train wreck will come ( even though I understand your point of veiw)

American Riding Pony, sorry not in my mind. Both are very much sportponies, of absolutely similar type and quality,and possibly very similar pedigree, but only one does not have an international marketting strategy standing behind it already..

[MagicRoseFarm]

So would this be open to those of us who have a breed or program that produces stock that can fall in the never, neverland zone of heights, ie, a few who fall in the 14.2+ - 15 hand range?

Most definitely, you are breeding a (typically ) Pony registered breed, and breeding stock within all the Riding Pony sectors worldwide include blood that is outside the "perfect" 13.2 to 14.2 goals...

[exvet]

Most definitely, you are breeding a (typically ) Pony registered breed, and breeding stock within all the Riding Pony sectors worldwide include blood that is outside the "perfect" 13.2 to 14.2 goals...

Then count me in too. I also agree with pwynn's suggestions/recommendations. To make believers and followers you have to walk the talk which usually means proving that it can be done - pictures, video's, winnings in addition to demonstrating value in other areas. Just let me know if I can be of any help.

[lorik]

MRF,
I'm coming in late to this party, but if you are talking about individual breed classes in a USEF/USDF recognized Dressage Sport Horse Breed Show, the USEF rules state that an IBC class can be open only to horses from the same breed or breed registry. That leaves the 'mixed' pony class out of the picture.

It can, however, be run as an exhibition (points wouldn't count anywhere).

If there were enough ponies to warrent, one could develop a pony division. As I see that, you would have to have all of the age/gender groups you now have for horses. You'd also have to insist on pony measurement cards and the show might have to have a time and place (and officials) to measure the critters. There are very specific rules in place for the measurement of ponies. I even purchased an official measurement stick from USEF a few years ago (to the tune of about $250, I think it was). You can see why shows would be reluctant to embark on such an endevour. As it is now, I doubt the entries would warrent.

[MagicRoseFarm]

Lori, this is exactly as I understood it.. I cannot imagine a TD wanting to add pony measuring to an already hectic day. I know it is rather common for TD's at hunter shows, however not for DSHB TDS.. I think it will be awhile before entries will warrant pony divisions, if ever, and I can see where both the USEF and USDF would be reluctant to make changes when often the open DSHB classes do not fill to 6th placings. The FEI Pony Dressage and USEF Pony Jumpers are already in place and still in a fledgling stage.

which makes me ask out of curiosity: Is European Pony ( or British, or Dutch, or Australian) competition is its own separate entity with its own officials?

I too have a USEF Official Stick, ,,, salty bugger to have around to use once every few years...

[exvet]

I think it will be awhile before entries will warrant pony divisions, if ever, and I can see where both the USEF and USDF would be reluctant to make changes when often the open DSHB classes do not fill to 6th placings. The FEI Pony Dressage and USEF Pony Jumpers are already in place and still in a fledgling stage.

Though it is encouraging to see the numbers competing in open venues increasing, it is still rather limited to warrant the addition of pony classes/divisions imo, at least that's true for region 5. I also do not see management willingly and without a lot of push/backing start measuring ponies at the recognized shows routinely. The majority of our shows, min. 4 ring and often 5-6, are already overwhelmed and in need of more help. However, what I do see is a lot of interest when we're showing - all ponies, not just mine. Even after showing in this area for 8 years, I still get lots and lots of people asking about our ponies/cobs, occasionally asking for information on prospects and breeders. I make it a habit to carry a breed directory and business cards of one breeder, a friend who bred my gelding that is now showing at fourth level. I've shown some of her other stock for her and so I do bring [breed & breeder] related material to hand out if someone is inquiring/interested. This is what I see more of a need for - demonstrating what can be done, networking among ourselves (knowing eachh others forte and stock) AND support material.

My daughter and I are headed for a recognized show tomorrow. We'll be there Fri - Sun showing the two that we are taking. My daughter's mount (legally a pony), though not ready yet, is being aimed towards FEI pony classes before my daughter ages out. So far I haven't seen one FEI pony class listed/held at any of our recognized shows. My guy will be competing at third and fourth level. I will talk to management & see what they feel would be necessary to offer pony restricted classes and if they've had inquiries regarding the same before/lately that are unbeknownst to me 'cause though we show heavily and get lots of inquiries at the outgate, I do keep to myself for the most part. So, perhaps, there are some rumblings I'm unaware of though I doubt it.

That being said I think incentives, particularly breeder incentives & group incentives that are publicly announced help draw attention and appeal but you have to have enough participation to really start "convincing" people that it's more than just an exception and definitely a viable, plausible, worthwhile way to go. A group and/or website with suggestions on how one can increase visibility even locally/regionally would be helpful - like announcing breed performance awards in GMO newsletters, regional newsletters, on websites, etc. Gaining more coop ads, articles and pictures in nationally distributed magazines, etc.

[goodpony]

Out here in the West our Regional Dressage Affiliate recognizes year end High Scoing Pony. Ponies must be declared on the entry for scores to count. I also understand that in CO the Regional Championships held similar awards for competitiors declared as Ponies. My own Ponies have been measured at USDF competitions.

[ljshorses]

Lori, this is exactly as I understood it.. I cannot imagine a TD wanting to add pony measuring to an already hectic day. I know it is rather common for TD's at hunter shows, however not for DSHB TDS.. I think it will be awhile before entries will warrant pony divisions, if ever, and I can see where both the USEF and USDF would be reluctant to make changes when often the open DSHB classes do not fill to 6th placings. The FEI Pony Dressage and USEF Pony Jumpers are already in place and still in a fledgling stage.

which makes me ask out of curiosity: Is European Pony ( or British, or Dutch, or Australian) competition is its own separate entity with its own officials?

I too have a USEF Official Stick, ,,, salty bugger to have around to use once every few years...

As I have seen, the European ponies are now shown beside their European group's horses, i.e a RPSI pony is shown now against RPSI horses in IBCs. Same with the Old NA ponies/horses. I am not at all trying to debate whether which organization deserves the honor of being American, but what I am debating is that all these "sport" ponies that are bred and raised in America could be recognized without having to prove themselves against the "big" guys.

From what I take from what Lori K stated, it would be basically impossible unless RPSI, Old NA etc... sponsored their own classes and divisions and USEF/USDF would need to agree that they are apart but yet different than their horse size members of their groups. So, I believe that is a long way from being a possibility. However, I propose to Lori K, is it possible to have a Born in the USA Award for the highest point earning pony/show? I know then this means more awards to be handed out, but if we got individual breeders such as myself to pay for the awards/advertising etc... then the "smaller" guys can get seperate recognition at all the bigger shows. It wouldn't matter then what breed registry they are just that they are ponies or pony breeding stock (i.e. in this case registered as such with some pony registry?) awarded for their high score/show. I think this could really stimulate more showing/breeding of the smaller ones because of the added award incentives. So Lori K, is something like that possible do you think? I know you had a bugger of a time getting the Born in the USA up and running, but maybe this could be an offshoot?

[hluing]

Perhaps this is slightly off the OP's original topic...but I am very interested in getting more pony classes and awards established with USDF. It is really helpful to hear people's experiences from other regions. I think we really need to speak up to USDF etc and make our needs known. It is hard to attract the numbers of ponies when there is no specific classes/awards/recognition/programs, etc. I think the reason numbers are low in FEI pony (and maybe even pony jumpers) is because alot of the "sportpony" interest is from adults! Yes, the ponies are great for kids...but there are fewer child dressage riders then petite adult amys.

I do not think it is right that the German ponies be lumped in with the coresponding WB regsitry...they are different and should be competing amoung themselves. I have been after Weser-Ems for the last couple years to add an USDF All Breeds award. They have said it is still too expensive for the number of ponies registered. I heard rumor that this year they would be added, but only for the open divisions. I guess it is a start (although as an adult amy it is frustrating). At one point I wanted to try to add a German Riding Pony All breeds award sponsored by GRP Breeders, but the cost was very high and I was just to busy to organize the whole thing.

[Tiki]

As I have seen, the European ponies are now shown beside their European group's horses, i.e a RPSI pony is shown now against RPSI horses in IBCs. Same with the Old NA ponies/horses.At least last year, ISR/OLNA DID sponsor an ISR Sport Pony IBC at Devon. There were only 1 or 2 entries, so I don't know if they are going to sponsor it again this year, but one of Lesley's ponies won it. I now have 3 possibles that I could bring, but I'd be competing against myself if I brought all 3. :D

[Lesley Feakins]

Actually there has been an ISR sport pony class at DAD for a few years. Initially I sponsored the highest placed pony within the ISR/Oldenburg Class then a dear friend took over the sponship of a separate ISR Sport Pony Class. This wonderfully generous lady pays for the class, presents the most beautiful etched glass tropthy and last year in addition, there was a gorgeous silver bowl and also a riding jacket. She also breeds ISR Sport Ponies but won't enter the class at DAD because she is the sponsor.
When these classes are offered, we must support them by our entries. I know costs are a issue but if we don't support them I'm afraid we are going to loose what little classes we already have.

[lorik]

Marie,
We used to give a Born in the USA Breeders Award for the high score pony. It really did cause a lot of trouble. Part of the problem is that we have no idea how large some of these youngsters would be when full grown. What do I do with the weanling or yearling welsh/X pony that may grow up to be 14.3? What about Connemarras? They are a 'pony breed' that may be horse size.

Then there was the year that the owner of the top scoring pony in a Materiale class insisted on being included because we said we gave the award to the top scoring pony and the Materiale score was higher than any in hand score.

I'd love to do something, but we need to come up with a way to close all of the loopholes.

Suggestions?

[Lesley Feakins]

I think this comes back to the definition of a "Sport Pony" which we all seem to have problems identifying....breed, height, bloodlines etc.

All I would say is just because there may not be pony classes to compete in don't let that stop you for getting out there in the open classes. We had one of our ponies compete in the open weaning class at DAD in 2001 and she placed 6th out of approx 40 or so WB's.

[ljshorses]

I think this comes back to the definition of a "Sport Pony" which we all seem to have problems identifying....breed, height, bloodlines etc.

All I would say is just because there may not be pony classes to compete in don't let that stop you for getting out there in the open classes. We had one of our ponies compete in the open weaning class at DAD in 2001 and she placed 6th out of approx 40 or so WB's.

Lesley, you have such gorgeous ponies!!! I didn't even realize that about ISR Pony classes...hmmm shame about the small numbers. I guess that's why it would be great to group them all together, but as Lori K said, it would be problematic. Sure wish there was an easy solution. I think what Lesley says is the best solution for now...we should not be afraid to show the ponies in open classes. A good mover or jumper is just that no matter his or her size. Now to find impartial judges that feel that way, lol. But as with pinto warmbloods, once you start seeing enough of them, then the judging becomes more fair and unbiased. So we must be brave and just do it and hope enough will compete and then predjudice won't be an issue. Maybe thanks to the publicity of Theodore O'Connor, things may get better for the sport ponies.

As for the op, I still feel a support group via website is great regardless of specific shows and awards. Everyone that breeds and shows ponies could definitely benefit from speaking to others like them. So, I am still on board and willing to help with such a good idea.

[Tiki]

Lesley's Forrest Flame is also competing and winning at 4th level against the big boys!

[hluing]

Lots of ponies are out there winning against the full sized horses...but there should still eb special recognition of ponies! It seems to me very possible to close/deal with the loop holes. USDF just needs to DO something...it would be better then nothing!

[goodpony]

Maybe a system of National recognition (ie all ponies all breeds-various disciplines and at various levels:dressage, jumping, eventing, driving, in hand etc) could model itself on something like the all breeds award wherby individuals across the nation can compete against eachother using points acquired at recognised shows. It would be nice to have actual Pony Awards...sort of like a group incentive.

[pwynnnorman]

Marie,
Part of the problem is that we have no idea how large some of these youngsters would be when full grown. What do I do with the weanling or yearling welsh/X pony that may grow up to be 14.3?

Also slightly OT, but I've always wondered about this: Can one show a 14.1 hand yearling in the pony breeding division?

Some folks have brought up interesting issues, alas. I don't mind, but I'm just pointing out that with the following reasoning, I'd be in trouble since while *I* want to produce pony-size, I'm hardly using a "typically pony registered breed." It's a tough call, I'm sure (and I don't envy anyone having to make that call), but where do you draw the line? Given the climate, would it even be necessary (to "draw the line" somewhere)?


Most definitely, you are breeding a (typically ) Pony registered breed, and breeding stock within all the Riding Pony sectors worldwide include blood that is outside the "perfect" 13.2 to 14.2 goals...

[vineyridge]

Totally off topic

Didn't I read somewhere that European ponies could be taller than NA ones? How about the Brits?

I wish somebody would recognize a separate category for Honies/Cobs.

[Tiki]

They can be up to 148cm which is just over 14.2h - close to 14.3h.

I am breeding honies basically. they are registered as Sport Ponies, but they are by pony stallions out of horse mares. Mine will probably only be eligible until they are about 3, then they will probably go just over. But I'm breeding for smaller adults. I don't want to get into the kid's dressage pony as most kids in this country don't ride dressage - except for the handful that are in Lendon's Dressage4Kids program. That's not enough for a market yet.

[Sassenach]

Totally off topic

Didn't I read somewhere that European ponies could be taller than NA ones? How about the Brits?

I wish somebody would recognize a separate category for Honies/Cobs.

Same for Ireland/UK 148cm which is closer to 14.2 1/2 :yes:

There is an EXCELLENT market in Britain for oversize (15.1+) Connemara geldings. Friend of ours has sold several and has started to specialize in them - buys them unbroken, trains them up maybe hunts a season and sells them on.

I'd love a separate category for the Cobs/Honies too :yes:

[Daydream Believer]

Why not try and get divisions for sport ponies and cobs? Say a max size of 15 hands or something like that. That way the honey breeders or those of us with a purebred breed that tends to go oversize can participate and the height issue is not so restrictive or the kiss of death if a pony goes over 14:2. I personally do not want to breed anything over 15 hands as that is too big in our breed but I'm not going to limit myself to only the smaller individuals. That slightly larger than pony size is more popular I find.

As for just getting out there and going against the horses..I don't think we have a choice. I recently took my stallion and a couple of his babies to the Sport Horse stallion show ;-) and not only was he one of two sport ponies there (not counting the Gypsy Vanner) but he was a rare almost unknown breed at that. I had nothing but positive feed back and was tickled pink with how well they were received and the interest in them. I would not hesitate to put my nice 2 year old filly in an in hand class this summer with traditional breed fillies because I know she moves as well as they do and is a legitimate entry. If a judge can't see past the smaller size, you can be sure there are a lot of spectators who will and it's that kind of publicity...being seen out there doing things...that will help us win over support.

We also will have to compete against the horses and beat them at their own game to get respect. Not just in our own divisions but in open divisions in dressage and over fences. A sport pony should be able to make the horse striding or jump as big (at least within reasonable limits). While I would support pony/cob divisions I don't think we should limit ourselves to them.

[goodpony]

Honies and Horse Breeds (14.2 HH yearlings) are discouraged from entering USDF Ponies in Hand--but are eligible for the open classes-though I think it is a discretionary issue left to the judge and don't be suprised if you are asked to produce a measurement card or be measured.

With our Pony Crosses the sky is the limit though we hope that some will stay with in the Pony Standard. With our Purebred pony and Pony x Pony breds we aim for Pony Height.

I think the market for Honies or Cob sizes is for going ponies in our country.

[MagicRoseFarm]

Our boy is registered half Welsh, and licensed with the ASPR...

If we REALLY wanted to , he would probably still measure as a pony,,, he is probably 14.3 with head in a normal position and shoes on...He looks to be 16 hands from afar.

He is a stallion,... so he cannot be competed by a junior in this country, and he cannot be competed by an adult if we do measure him... and since he is 5 this year, and we are working him fit,,, he will be bigger in the end.. so why worry with it..

We know he can compete with the big, guys, he has proven that. It IS nice to see him have opportunity for special awards and alleviates some of the frustration caused by being on this funky path.

We chose a different road, roads turn into highways if everyone is headed in the same direction.

[pwynnnorman]

It's such a catch-22, isn't it? The athleticism (for competing against horses) usually comes from a larger breed in the mix. But going for that degree of athleticism means accepting the risk that it'll go oversized. Aaargh! Yes, yes, this is exactly why hony divisions are so badly needed: so we don't get punished for trying to produce athletes for smaller yet still highly motivated riders! What kind of industry is it that penalizes producers for trying to satisfy consumers?

My great, great hope is that an idea like this one (American Riding Pony) will get us together sufficiently that some of us might finally coordinate our funds to solidly back a prestigiously attractive hony division--somewhere, somehow.

[exvet]

My great, great hope is that an idea like this one (American Riding Pony) will get us together sufficiently that some of us might finally coordinate our funds to solidly back a prestigiously attractive hony division--somewhere, somehow.

That is my hope too having more than a few who are competing heavily that fall on either side of the golden 14.2. Right now I struggle with the fact I have 2 colts - one coming 2 the other coming 4. Both are the same breed but with very different lines. Both are great movers. One will definitely stay pony the other is 15.2 (don't ask me how that happened). As for breed standard, they both meet it; but, when we get to the ideals and goals for dressage in terms of what is considered correct build.....well it's the 15.2 hand guy that meets both hands down.....so here I still sit with the reality that whatever I produce with the coming 4 year old (and currently with his movement the intent for now is to keep him intact) will have the strong likelihood of ending up in the abyss. I was going to geld the coming 2 year old but it's a hard decision because I know he is much more likely to produce 14.2 and below. My personal preference?... 14.3-15 hands all the way.

All along I've intended to produce for myself and my family, not a market; but, I know there will be times that I will need to sell as I have very occasionally in the past. Ironically it doesn't matter which side of the golden 14.2 my stock sit, they are equally competitive against the same big guys all the way from training to fourth level and as time goes on, hopefully we'll be campaigning even further (we are targeting Prix St. George for next year). Big pony? or Little Horse? most can't tell the difference especially if I'm sitting on it and we are in the warm-up with the "big" guys. Yet to read and listen to these discussions over and over does continue to be discouraging. This is the first one, however, that gives me hope that your goal/my goal might be attainable at some point in my lifetime. For now I'm focusing on getting on the road to Tucson in a little over an hour and putting in our best tests come rain or shine (currently we're expecting rain). We'll see how we do against the big guys :winkgrin:

[pwynnnorman]

Both are the same breed but with very different lines. Both are great movers. One will definitely stay pony the other is 15.2 (don't ask me how that happened).

Yup, I suspect that some may not realize just how much a crapshoot it is. Ted has a full sister who was 15.1 as a two-year-old (when I sold her) and one full brother looks like he's hit 15.0 at age five. Meanwhile, two. much older full sibs are both 14.1--another 3/4 sib is 15.1 and HIS full sibs--one a show pony, another a broodmare-- (and thus both also being 3/4 sibs to Ted) are a mediums! The broodmare is JUST 13.0 hands--same size as Ted's mom (who is her half sister).

Crossbreds! Doncha just love 'em (sigh).

[Tiki]

A sport pony should be able to make the horse striding or jump as big (at least within reasonable limits).In Europe, where kids can ride both jumpers and dressage, ponies routinely jump 4'6" and compete at at least 3rd level dressage. At our 100 Day Stallion Test, ponies have to complete the exact same course of show jumps and cross country jumps that the horses do.

[Sassenach]

In Europe, where kids can ride both jumpers and dressage, ponies routinely jump 4'6" and compete at at least 3rd level dressage. At our 100 Day Stallion Test, ponies have to complete the exact same course of show jumps and cross country jumps that the horses do.

Coming from Ireland my family and I were flabbergasted at the 'jumping' the ponies were doing - 2'6 tops. :eek: My dad walked away shaking his head and saying it was just ridiculous.

In Ireland (and Europe) ponies jump higher/go faster and there is no such thing as 'it's too high for a pony to jump' - go to the shows the most awesome thing is watching kids on ponies blast around a course of fences that of of a height, with quick sharp turns (heck I'm talking little dinky local shows in our area of Ireland too!).

I have yet to see anything that comes close here :no:

[Tiki]

It seems that most trainers won't let their kids jump over 2'6" here. I guess they think it's dangerous - but maybe it is because most of the kids I've seen are passengers, not riders. How on earth can we ever be competitive in the international sport horse show ring when our kids can't ride. All the parents want their kids to have horses. Just look at all the incredible pictures of 12-15 yo kids riding stallions at 3rd level in the pony classes in Europe. Most of our kids don't even get to training level until they are adults. Sorry, it's a sore point.

[goodpony]

you know I just don't see 'size' as being the keypoint limiting factor, what I see being the limiting factor in most cases rider/training/opportunity--provided brains and athletic ability are in place. Bringing all those things together in a moment of "opportunity" is what limits most individuals. If it was just that easy more people would do it. I guess the way I see it is there are oppornities to show and compete in the wide world----and that is where its going to happen for most of us who want to produce, train and compete with our ponies & cobs.

[PineTreeFarm]

It seems that most trainers won't let their kids jump over 2'6" here. I guess they think it's dangerous -

I'm going to guess that statement referred to Juniors showing ponies although you didn't quite say it that way and it would be incorrect if referring to all Junior riders.

Large Pony Hunters = 3'
Small Ponies are 2'3" Rider 12 or under
Medium Ponies are 2'6" Rider 14 or under

So if a child is over 14 then they have to show at 3' in a pony hunter class.

Pony Jumper classes are level 1-5. That's 3' to 4'. I've never seen one run at the higher levels but 3' is the minimum.

The pony jumper classes often do not fill.

Why is that? Maybe because everybody is 'told' they need a giant horse to compete. Look at all the threads on here. 'how big are your yearlings", 2yr olds, 3yr olds. So many brags about 18 hand 3 yr olds.

In 3'6" equitation a pony rider may be at a disadvantage competing against a rider on a horse. The distances may work out too long, the pony may have to put in a larger effort to jump the course. It doesn't mean it's a bad jumping pony it just means that equitation rewards smooth riders and a big effort won't contribute to a flowing round. So the kids coming off ponies go right to big horses.

Of course, this not being Europe, Hunters are very popular so many folks continue their riding careers showing only in that division. Jumpers appeal to a different group, often Pro riders.

[Tiki]

3'6" equitation = smooth ride on a flat jumper that's a push button horse??? That's very different from the pony jumpers in Europe. Yes, I know the classes don't fill here for pony jumpers. I don't know why. Either there just isn't the interest in jumpers until the riders mature or the trainers, parents and kids are overcautious. That's not my world, but all I keep hearing are HUGE brags that 'my kid just won at 2'6" and I'm so proud' - and I can only go by what I hear - but I hear it a lot. There are also plenty of adults who buy a 4'6" jumper overseas, bring it home and dumb it down to 2'6" or 3' as well. It's not just kids.

[pwynnnorman]

I think it all boils down to tradition. Abroad, riding is a tradition--including the amount of time spent in the saddle. Here, riding is a passtime on par with ballet, piano and soccer. For more kids, there just isn't the time to develop the confidence (more than skill, IMO) to do what the European kids do.

And the problem with the "most kids don't" issue is that majority rules when it comes to what trainers train and teach. Hence, no support for pony jumpers. And since the trainer dictates who shows in what here far more than abroad, too...? Well, if trainers were on board for producing pony jumpers akin to in Europe, they'd exist. Since it isn't profitable for them to do so (including taking the time to teach what is necessary to put a kid on a small horse over a big fence safely), it ain't happenin'.

[erinwillow]

A space for "American Riding Ponies" is a glorious idea! Why not? I dare say that we (all pony breeders) do have such lovely stock represented from all around the World that there absolutely should be a place and space just for them!

However, I would caution about getting hung up on the height question/issue. I think that we should stick whit what is currently defined as a Pony, for Connemaras, under 14.2. If there is interest in the hony or Cob then I think a separate grouping or club should be made for them. Keep "pony" in the word pony ;) And, if there is interest create a space for the lovely Cob or hony ;)

[MagicRoseFarm]

Ok the site is up, email is on and accepting submissions, suggestions and critiques
once we get some photos etc we will invent a snappy "intro" page. and be able to make the pages more attractive

I like the rollover in the header,

American Riding Pony Website (http://www.americanridingpony.com)

[hluing]

Well, you are going to lose all German Riding Pony breeders by mandating the "must belong to a US based breed registry" not too mention excluding frozen semen stallions/babies.

See, this is why this makes NO sence to me. American breeders are breeding ponies born in North America. By saying my pony does not meet criteria for American bred because I use a German registry and or frozen semen seems very arbitrary. My foals are still ponies and are still born in America...So, if I have the money to import a stallion and use him for breeding in the US it is OK..but if I utilize the modern technology of frozen semen to affordably breed to the same stallion...that dosent count??? Count me out then...my primary goal is breeding the very best ponies I can wherever their parents are living!

[MagicRoseFarm]

Heather, you breed GERMAN Riding Ponies, and are adamant about that, the site is to promote AMERICAN Riding Ponies, which yours are not by your own admission, no matter where they are born,so why throw a fit?

If you bred using frozen semen in North America, birthed them in North America, and called them AMERICAN Riding Ponies, then they would be eligible to be on the site.

Its kind of like competing as a Junior and a Senior at the same time, or First Year green and Second Year Green, or wanting to show your filly in a colt class, you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

I am sure there are German Riding Pony Groups available for marketting German Riding Ponies for German Riding Pony breeders.

[not again]

If all the different pony registries sponsor classes, open and IBC, at the DSHB shows, maybe there could be a pony champion and reserve just like the horses have. Just a thought.....
FWIW, I sponsor the IBC classes for both horses and ponies for my registry at a show even though I am not a pony breeder; Maybe the open classes need to be tweaked to come up with a sport pony champion and reserve. Petition the management if you like the concept. and put a little prize money behind it.

[MagicRoseFarm]

Not Again, Excellent Idea!! I spoke with someone this morning about a similar type idea which is in the works .. and I have two competitions in mind that might benefit from such an endevour. I am saying my prayers it can be a possibility.

[hluing]

Listen MagicRose...not sure I was having a fit ...but I thought you were trying to unite American breeders of many pony breeds and encourage recognition in competition. I thought you had been clear about not wanting to start a registry or a breed.

Now if that is the case...I am not sure how my breed of ponies that originate in another country is all the much different from Welsh (from Wales), Connies (from Ireland), etc. I have no interest in forminmg a breed...but if this entails getting many breed sof ponies together and promoting ponies in sport...then I am very much interetsted and confused on why I would be excluded?

[hluing]

Not again,
They can actually just add a pony champion and reserve...I think they may be doing that in my region this year. I don't think it is depended on the breeds sponsoring classes.

[pwynnnorman]

Just curious: Could a British Riding Pony be registered or recorded as a German Riding Pony--or vice versa?

According to the BRP site, it looks like only specific ponies "native" to the UK qualify (http://www.nationalponysociety.org.uk/standards/bsrp.html).

[ozjb]

I live in Australia and have joined our own version of this: http://www.australiansportspony.org/

I think the idea is that ALL ponies who are involved in any of the Olympic disciplines can be defined and registered as a Sport Pony. Our little Welsh A and our Welsh x Throughbred (13.3)are both registered with the Welsh Society and the ASPR. If I had something else that was within the height requirements, I could register it with the Sport Pony people.

The plan, as I understand it, is to simply promote ponies as viable mounts for people who want to partcipate in dressage, eventing, jumping. We don't have Pony Jumping here (which is a bit sad) and ponies just compete with the horses in eventing. Dressage is a bit of a battle just now.

Both my ponies have Pony Dressage cards from the EFA (Equestrian Federation of Australia). We have new rules this year that may or may not help the ponies compete, but we now have the 148cm (149 if shod) height requirement. Nationally, a rule was put in place to make us like Europe in that only kids 16 and under could ride ponies officially. That got changed because we don't have the European tradition and there aren't any high level ponies being ridden by kids yet. We NEED the adults to be schooling and competing these ponies correctly so that the kids will have something to move onto. The Sport Pony people worked really hard to change this so that adults could also compete.

Up until now, ponies weren't allowed to compete with the horses. At all. My daughter got kicked out of an unofficial class. They would not allow her to compete HC. This was our local club. LOL (I think maybe the grownunps were tired of getting beat by an 11 year old on an 11.2 pony!) We were trying to qualify for our Young Rider Championships and it was hard to do on a pony. Crazy.

So now the clubs are to let the ponies compete, but either at the beginning or the end of the class. Which means we are either on at 8 am, 5 pm or both. No idea who came up with such crap, but at least we can compete.

There still doesn't seem to be an understanding that great dressage riders don't just leap on big warmbloods and get started. They start on good ponies. But having something official to represent the ponies is a start!

If we move back to the States and bring our ponies, where would they fit? I watched the video someone sent of the $70,000 hunter pony and I figure I could sell our pony for stacks! LOL She cruises around the jumps as regulary as that pony and has a better frame doing it. But she would much rather poke her nose out. She would be soooo happy! (We don't have hunter classes either)

[pwynnnorman]

Say, the Australian Riding Pony website has some useful language in it, don't you think?

From http://www.rpsbs.com.au/ Most horse and pony breed have evolved by natural selection rather than design. Even the thoroughbred was developed by selecting speed horses and mating these with other speed horses, rather than having an end result in mind.


The Riding Pony is one of the few examples of a planned exercise to breed a type for particular purpose.

It cannot be considered in genetic terms a breed but rather a refined type.


It combines certain characteristics of known breeds and certain identified bloodlines which have demonstrated prepotent ability to breed on some of these combined characteristics.

In other words the Riding Pony is essentially a fixed cross or composite of several breeds.The end result aimed for is a animal which can go out into the show ring and exhibit all the characteristics in type, movement and temperament that defines a SHOW PONY.


Over nearly 100 years now the recognition of the bloodlines which can best contribute to this end result have been recognised, recorded and concentrated , first in Britain and now for the last 25 years in Australia.

One of the most important things about a composite type is that it can continually evolve new bloodlines and new influence and consequently the breeding of Riding Ponies is a continuing process and type may be always improved.


So the Riding Pony is a combination of various pony breeds with thoroughbred and Arab, bred to produce the ultimate pony to perform in show riding classes.

[pwynnnorman]

Digging a little deeper, I found under "registration" a similar set of determinants to those used by the BRPs: a specific list of named breeds acceptable to the registry (all British pony breeds, plus the Arabian and the Thoroughbred). I can't quite understand what they are indicating about various sections, though. I just can't follow it. They do say at one point that no animal registered with a purebred registry can be registered in Section A (but I don't get the rest of it).

Anyway, though, this "registry" does seem more like what this American effort (not calling it a registry) is about. The Australians don't seem interested in inspecting or anything like that--at one point somewhere, they clearly state that they feel the show ring should be the ultimate determinant of what gets bred and what doesn't. (That's pretty cool, IMO: a strictly market- and performance-driven product.) If I'm understanding correctly, it sounds like ANY pony bred in Australia can be registered, but in different sections depending on the parentage. I'm not getting it enough to understand how they'd deal with a GRP, though. [The problem is that the info is in columns, but the columns don't line up on the webpage, so it's impossible to follow.]

Ozjg, we posted at the same time!

[MagicRoseFarm]

I feel the goals for the ARP in North America are similar to what Australia has for their Australian Riding Pony. These notes are a great help in "tweaking" the mission statement for the ARP (which I am sure will need tweaked more). I am trying to keep this as short and simple as possible, so far I have come up with:

To support and promote the exclusive and distinctive Sportpony types being produced in North America, claiming American heritage,whose nobility, correctness, movement, and character
allow them the abilities necessary to excel at high levels of the following “sport” disciplines:
Dressage
Jumping
Eventing
Hunter
Driving

To provide information pertaining to venues, competitions,.and awards programs
available and useful to American Riding Ponies.

To assist Breeders, Stallion Owners, Trainers and Competitors
marketing the American Riding Pony and showcasing their wonderful attributes.

To support American Riding Pony enthusiasts in their efforts to encourage their respective
Clubs, Groups, Associations, and Breed Registries to showcase the accolades of these incredible athletes.

[hluing]

Seems to me this is just what the ASPR is doing. I am not sure how your idea is any different.

[MagicRoseFarm]

The ASPR is a Registry, the American Riding Pony is a brand new website,and I hope eventually a group, however I think this group will welcome any support the ASPR ( or other American based Associations or clubs or groups) offers towards promoting American Riding Ponies,and we will happily showcase the successes of their members Sportponies.
I think it is important to stress that this is the same for members of any other American based Association who promotes their sporttype individuals

The idea is to provide EVERYONE breeding "AMERICAN Sportypes of Ponies" with a unified front to build a public awareness, and consolidate ideas that will help them compete and market their ponies.

I wish every Association (USDF, USEF, Welsh, Connemara, ISR, etc) in North America would support their memberships with Sportpony awards similar to the $1000 added Championship bonuses that the ASPR offers its membership to get them to compete in the Star Search Pony Challenge. The USEA is doing it with its new perpetual tropy. Its a start. There will be new awards in the future, and without a unified front, they can be lost in the shuffle to many who are deserving the opportunity to compete for them, even if for the only reason that they are not closely related to a breed association. Or even for those who just don't have an affiliation, but have great ponies.

A LARGE group with the same or similar goals will eventually draw international attention to this type of pony here in the USA. Just the success of ONE Pony (Teddy), who has a pedigree and "type" and NO Registry, is opening the doors for this awareness and we should take this chance to ENCOURAGE others to do the same. Timing is important and I feel the time has come.

A unification is very much desired among some American Breeders who feel that their sportpony types deserve this recognition, and this website is an opportunity to offer that.

It is sheer "luck " that noone had thought to use the "American Riding Pony" idea before for more selfish reasons.

[Tiki]

OK, so the ASPR and the proposed APR are just like the AWR and the AWS. I'm not sure I see what you're trying to do either.

[MagicRoseFarm]

As stated in the OP, the idea is to set up a group or club for marketting purposes, Similar to some of the regional sporthorse marketting groups, No affiliation except to promote business in their region, in this case not a region, a type.

[ozjb]

The Australian Riding Pony Registry and the Sport Pony Registry are two vastly different organizations. LOL While LOT of people totally love the Riding Pony, I wouldn't own one. They are pretty much JUST show ponies. Beautiful, very, very find and half of them are way too hot for a child!

Hack shows are their own entity, not sure if there is anything similar in the US because, while we do dressage, jump and event, we don't "show" because that is something different. More like an equine beauty pageant.

[ljshorses]

OK, so the ASPR and the proposed APR are just like the AWR and the AWS. I'm not sure I see what you're trying to do either.

That's how I took it too...guess I'm out as well since I have RPSI American bred, raised, trained ponies. I choose not to register them with ASPR though until serious changes are made which I doubt will be in my lifetime. I got so excited when I thought as hluing did that this was a support group for pony breeders and a way to recognize the ponies bred in America, hmmm.

[lorik]

If I was to list a pony Champion and Reserve to be awarded at my Fair Hill DSHB Show, how would you all suggest I word it? Do I offer it as the highest scoring ponies from the 'open' classes? Do I include the IBCs? Do I make it available to only those ponies who are old enough to prove they are at their final height? Do I include only those ponies who have a permanent card from USEF? Do I include all 'ponies' that are registered or recorded with a 'pony breed registry' and have the papers to prove it?

I'd like to be on the forefront of all of this. I might even be in a position to ask that it be done at other shows (I'm involved in one way or another with 8 shows this year from NY to KY)

[ljshorses]

If I was to list a pony Champion and Reserve to be awarded at my Fair Hill DSHB Show, how would you all suggest I word it? Do I offer it as the highest scoring ponies from the 'open' classes? Do I include the IBCs? Do I make it available to only those ponies who are old enough to prove they are at their final height? Do I include only those ponies who have a permanent card from USEF? Do I include all 'ponies' that are registered or recorded with a 'pony breed registry' and have the papers to prove it?

I'd like to be on the forefront of all of this. I might even be in a position to ask that it be done at other shows (I'm involved in one way or another with 8 shows this year from NY to KY)

How about doing it like the Born in the USA awards and then have them be registered as a pony whether they go over or not. There are many pony registries. We have a teaser stallion that is registered as a Paint Pony but went over (he is 14.3h). So I would think as long as they have some type of pony registry (even pending) then they would qualify. I offer to purchase the awards for Champion and Reserve.

[hluing]

I have reviewed some USDF policly about this...you can certainly offer it to ponies in the open classes (I think that is preferable). Then the mature ponies have to be true pony size (and is challenged might get measured). The youngsters are OK as long as they are under pony height. Please elt us know how you work yours asd these are probably going to start being offered all over the country.

[hluing]

I actually love the idea of doing it like the Born in the USA awards...I had heard USDF would not allow it...but I think it is a sensible alternative.

[lorik]

USDF has nothing to do with the rules, except for the GAIG/USDF Breeder's Championship Series. Each show can give championship ribbons however they want to.

USEF, on the other hand, makes the rules that if you have a classes limited to ponies (dressage, or h/j or western, etc,) the animals in the class MUST be pony size and can require they be measured.

I, as an organizer, am well within my rights to offer a 'pony championship' as long as I state that it will go to any animal registered with a 'pony registry'. I'm thinking just from the open in hand classes.
I can also have an IBC class for registered "X pony registry" and even if a hony is registered with that 'pony registry' he can enter the class. What I can't do is have an open class for ponies and have a hony enter it.

Marie,
Thanks for the offer to fund the championsip/reserve awards. I'm getting ready to order my ribbons (Hodges offers a 10% winter discount, so I always try to get my order in). I'll order the pony champion and reserve ribbons and then we can flesh out exactly how to word the prize list. It has to be iron-clad with no room for interpretation.

[ljshorses]

That sounds great Lori. I just got the email about sponsorships and was definitely planning to sponsor a class. Would you like me to to fill out a sponsorship for the Pony championship too or is it done differently. I love Hodges ribbons and just got that catalogue too.

[goodpony]

Hi MagicRose, I've just had a chance to look at the site, thank you for putting it together. After looking through Im not sure how the Native Breeds (especially the heavier cob types) will fit into your overall theme---most of the photos show a very TB/Arabian type of show pony...Makes perfect since--American Riding Pony is the name of the site is this the strict aim of the group?----as in the very strictly Show Pony Type British Riding P, Australian Riding P, Very Refined German Riding P types. ***Which I am for the continued development and ongoing promotion of an American Riding Pony! So Bravo!

Just a small suggestion though you may want to look at National Pony Society which umbrellas both Types and Breeds.

http://www.nationalponysociety.org.uk/

[rideagoldenpony]

I had some questions after I viewed the site.... but the contact e-mail doesn't work.

[lorik]

Marie,

Sponsor whichever breed you want to. I'll supply the pony championship ribbons and we can go from there.

I'm thinking the highest and second highest scores in the open in hand classes from an equine who is birth registered with any pony breed registration.

Let me talk with others about the possiblity of putting the pony 'division' back into the BITUSA awards. Again, the wording has to be ironclad and I believe the equine will have to be birth registered with a pony registry. That's the only way we can make sure the young ones are not just immature honies.

I always get psyched about these things at this time of the year! There are no entries to get into the computer and no deadlines to meet. Live is simple. It's the best time to get started on something like this.

[pwynnnorman]

MagicRose will correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of this is that anyone with an American-bred can participate, regardless of type. That's what makes it like the Australians, whose philosophy is that "the show ring" is the ultimate determinant of what's acceptable and/or desirable (to breed or to sell). So whatever the type or (American) origin, it's a go in this scheme.

And that, too, makes it unlike ASPR or AWS--I haven't read anything about inspections and the like. To my mind, what MagicRose is putting together is what makes sense to someone like me who has never exactly been on board with inspections for crossbred ponies. I've come to understand it with WBs that have well established pedigrees, even if they are crossed, but with ponies--especially the vast range in type that are "invited," if not actually approved--it just boils down to someone's opinion.

And I don't trust that, frankly. I DO trust the objectivity of scores in competition. If I had a stallion I wanted to stand up against others' stallions, I can't ever see myself relying on someone else to "approve" him with respect to someone else's stallion (or stallion's score--same thing, in my mind: I can't imagine exposing my years of hardwork to the potential of getting a 7.9 to someone else's 8.5 just because somebody with an accent or not labelled him as such). And, on the other hand, I can see the risk in him getting totally torpedo-ed if I up someday and decide to step out of line. So, I love MagicRose's idea--I think it's an excellent alternative.

[pwynnnorman]

BTW, is the following issue (at the bottom of the home page) important?


Incomplete Hit Counter plug-in code. Webmaster, please Re-publish (https://member.doteasy.com/)

[MagicRoseFarm]

I had some questions after I viewed the site.... but the contact e-mail doesn't work.

I made a spelling mistake on the link on the stallion page, it is corrected, THANKS!!!

[pwynnnorman]

I just realized there's a way we can all help develop this site (if it has the capacity): we can send MagicRose useful links and/or articles.

I was trying to find a single source for ponies that did great things competing against horses, but I can't find one online (Horse and Hound did a big piece last year, but I can't find it online. I guess it's not legal to scan it in and use it in pdf form, huh?).

Here's what someone posted on COTH about Connemaras who exemplify the APR concept (more or less???--one could just take the pony-sized ponies from it to start compiling a list for the site):

Originally Posted by SueCoo2 http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=2800140#post2800140)
Famous Connemara Feats:

In 1935 at the International Horse Show in Olympia London, the 22-year-old, 15 hand Connemara gelding, The Nugget, cleared a 7’2” jump and subsequently won over 300 prizes internationally earning over 4,500 pounds sterling in prize money

At Madison Square Garden in New York , NY , in 1939, the 13.2 hand Connemara , Little Squire, won the Open Championship by clearing fences of seven feet. The American press dubbed him “the littlest horse with the biggest heart.”

Tommy Wade’s 15 hand Connemara gelding Dundrum became Supreme Champion at the Wembley Horse of the Year Show when he set a record by clearing a 7’2” puissance wall. In 1961 he was regarded as show jumper of the century when he won five major events at the Dublin Horse Show, the first time in history that so many awards were won by the same rider, and he did it with the same hrose! He was International Jumping Champion from 1959 – 1963.

MARCUS AURELIUS was a Connemara/Thoroughbred ridden by Mary Ann e Tauskey. The pair competed in the 1975 Pan American Games and were members of the Gold Medal winning United States Eventing Team. In 1976 they were again on the Gold Medal winning United States Eventing Team.

Only one of two horses to jump a clear round in the entire 1968 Olympics was a 14.1 half bred Connemara , Stroller. Stroller competed in the Olympic games as a member of the British Team ridden by Marium Coakes. They won the silver medal behind the gold medal winners Snowbound and Bill Steinkraus. Stroller cleared an Puissance Fence of 6’10.”

[MagicRoseFarm]

BTW, is the following issue (at the bottom of the home page) important?

yeah well , THAT one I am having problems with, I am self taught so my web publishing leaves alot to be desired... :)

[MagicRoseFarm]

I just realized there's a way we can all help develop this site (if it has the capacity): we can send MagicRose useful links and/or articles.

This is great!! I will use the ones from this list that are American Related on the Past Stars page!!

I have old info on Seldom Seen to add... any photos to go with this stuff should be submitted !!!

[Tiki]

OK, I'm confused. Your site says American Riding Pony born on North American soil of parent(s) recognized by a North American based Association or Breed Registry That seems to exclude Weser Ems or RPSI or Hannoverian Pony and a lot that are just registered as German Riding Pony - even if born here. It theoretically excludes most of the offspring of stallions and lots of the mares as most of them to start with are/were imported so the parents, even if the offspring were born here, don't meet the above criteria.

[lorik]

MRF,
Consider this. Like the BITUSA set-up. The pony should be 'conceived and born' in the USA.
If someone feels the need to go outside the US for semen, it's still the product of a US breeding program.
Those mares outside the US (or North America if you want to go broader) are excluded if brought into the US in foal.
We thought long and hard about the BITUSA program, and I stand by it even though there are breeders with mares outside the US. It's just too hard to keep things straight.
You've done a terrific job in starting this program. Let's grow together.

[hluing]

Yep, conceived and born on US soil sure makes alot more sence to me...unless you are trying to exclude certain breeds. ????

[MagicRoseFarm]

MRF,
Consider this. Like the BITUSA set-up. The pony should be 'conceived and born' in the USA.
If someone feels the need to go outside the US for semen, it's still the product of a US breeding program.
Those mares outside the US (or North America if you want to go broader) are excluded if brought into the US in foal.
We thought long and hard about the BITUSA program, and I stand by it even though there are breeders with mares outside the US. It's just too hard to keep things straight.
You've done a terrific job in starting this program. Let's grow together.

Thanks Lori, It IS tough to word things for clarity, I understand the struggles you have had with the Born in the USA programs, ESPECIALLY one for ponies when you have a height issue, vs a "blood" issue.

Directing this site toward promoting the "competitiveness" of American Ponies nationally and internationally, adds additional perspectives. One of these being not so much where the pony was "conceived" but by what nationality it is "perceived" and promoted.

Keep the good ideas coming, we are pushing to get as much info on the site now as possible, while the weather makes us want to be inside :)

[butlerfamilyzoo]

I'm a GRP fan, dont get me wrong, hoping to breed a mare to one this year, but i fully support this site in the way that it is being worded. Is it wrong to exclude "GERMAN Riding Ponies?" I think not. This is an AMERICAN site...

Maybe the wording should be something such as, a pony with an AMERICAN registry... One that doesnt send you papers in a foreign language?

You cant stand up and say i have American/German Riding Ponies... Doesnt this get confusing to new comers?

Granted, this is an added expense, but they could be registered with the ASPR as well and then could be included in an AMERICAN site by being called AMERICAN sport ponies??

German Riding Ponies have a fairly good marketing program for themselves, and if it isnt established that well here in the US, then someone needs to step up to the plate... But i feel this is a great site to promote the AMERICAN registered breeds that do NOT have any type of advertising and are frequently passed over for something German or imported... Its time to see our american breeders overcome this!

[hluing]

Well, I am bowing out of this discussion...but I have to say it is a shame to see American pony breeders further fragmented. What is really needed in the US right now is pony breeders in general to set aside their differences and promote ponies in sport.

[not again]

Does anyone have any photos or info about Poltroon?

[ljshorses]

Ditto to what hluing just said. Also, my RPSI papers are very readable and are in English. I still support what Lori said but to each there own. It seems GRPs are to be excluded so I am not in support, but I have no ill wishes just disappointment since I too thought it was to help sport pony breeders in the USA.

[not again]

MRF you may want to check with Klaus Biesenthal about the size issue. His father was president of the Hannoveraner Pony and Small Horse Society, and is an avid American pony breeder. (and a very good combined driver---I smell an interview coming)

[MagicRoseFarm]

Ditto to what hluing just said. Also, my RPSI papers are very readable and are in English. I still support what Lori said but to each there own. It seems GRPs are to be excluded so I am not in support, but I have no ill wishes just disappointment since I too thought it was to help sport pony breeders in the USA.

Marie, I have been to your site before, you have sportponies that are NOT registered with a foreign Riding Pony based association (I believe they are 1/2 Welsh?) I cannot think of any issue that would prevent you using the site to promote these American Bred Ponies.

[MagicRoseFarm]

Well Miss Not Again,.. I would sure love tosee the site print your interveiw with Mr Biesenthal regarding his opinions on the size issue and anything else he may wish to add that might be constructive!!!!:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes: :winkgrin:

[not again]

In Germany, I believe the pony measurement ends at 148/149 and then the small horses have their own division in competition (to 15.3 in cms). Stud books are a different matter, and I believe ponies are under each state's studbook. But nothing like getting the info from the horse's mouth. I'll check and get back to you!

[TouchstoneAcres]

If I was to list a pony Champion and Reserve to be awarded at my Fair Hill DSHB Show, how would you all suggest I word it? Do I offer it as the highest scoring ponies from the 'open' classes? Do I include the IBCs? Do I make it available to only those ponies who are old enough to prove they are at their final height? Do I include only those ponies who have a permanent card from USEF? Do I include all 'ponies' that are registered or recorded with a 'pony breed registry' and have the papers to prove it?

I'd like to be on the forefront of all of this. I might even be in a position to ask that it be done at other shows (I'm involved in one way or another with 8 shows this year from NY to KY)

Some of my Lipizzans may qualify as ponies but we are not a "pony breed." We are more of a "hony breed." But we avoid calling ourt horses ponies even when they are, because they move like horses. Still if it's a pony size bred in USA, why not include it?
I'd say use the open class scores.
I don't know what to say about proving size-how does the USEF do cards? A permanent card is at an older age like 6 isn't it? What do they do with younger ones? Allowing a 14.1 hand yearling is preposterous. I have a 14h coming 4 year old--how would we decide on the age/size part?

[Equine Reproduction]

I agree with the fragmenting breeders further by excluding German Riding Ponies. And what is the purpose of the exclusionary clause??? I've got a coming two year old colt that is out of my Oldenburg N.A. mare (who is by Mannhattan and out of an Ideal bred mare, so two generations on US soil of breeding) and by Wedderlie Mardi Gras. I "could" register the foal as 1/2 Welsh which would probably make him eligible according to the criteria that seems to be the plan, but again, it would be circumventing the criteria. If you intend to exclude German Riding Ponies, then you probably need to look at excluding Welsh and Connemara's as well... I would think that making the requirements that the foals are bred and born on US soil to be eligible makes a whole lot more sense... But, carry on as you see fit...

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

and

Avalon Equine
Home of the Oldenburg stallion, Mannhattan
Check out our $350.00 Breeding Special!!
http://www.avalon-equine.com

[TouchstoneAcres]

Lipizzans average 15h-15.1h and are likely to include quite a few ponies as well as a few 15.2 to 16h horses. But they are likely to be smaller, due to over 400 years of breeding for this size, than many European type ponies who have full sized WBs in their pedigree. Yet you would exclude Lipizzans for not being a pony breed? And Arabians? How about a Welsh/ Lipizzan registered half Welsh instead of half Lip? This is a very difficult thing you propose. Unless you name an age and a size and define it that way.

[MagicRoseFarm]

I agree with the fragmenting breeders further by excluding German Riding Ponies. And what is the purpose of the exclusionary clause??? I've got a coming two year old colt that is out of my Oldenburg N.A. mare (who is by Mannhattan and out of an Ideal bred mare, so two generations on US soil of breeding) and by Wedderlie Mardi Gras. I "could" register the foal as 1/2 Welsh which would probably make him eligible according to the criteria that seems to be the plan, but again, it would be circumventing the criteria.

This is exactly the trainwreck I am sad to see.
Its like taking a REAL Louis Vuitton bag and trying to sell it as a counterfeit.

Why is it those who CHOOSE not to call their ponies American when they have a choice, even though they are born and bred on American soil are the ones throwing a giant fit because others believe in calling their own American?

[ljshorses]

Just a note to say, I have all of my ponies that I breed and intend to breed registered with both Half Welsh and RPSI. They are as American as they can be, but I wanted them to be inspected by RPSI because I value their inspection criteria. There is no hissy fit or trainwreck that I can see. I just see a disagreance about who should be included or not. It is your choice since you are the developer MagicRose so no one can tell you how to run it. I certainly am not trying to tell you what to do just that I would, if it was me, include all ponies born and bred in the USA, but that is just my opinion. I think all ponies can benefit by your organization even if some are not welcome. As they say publicity is publicity so I am all for it and only wish you the best.

[Daydream Believer]

I have stayed out of this debate so far....but honestly...how can you breed and promote a German Riding Pony not even registered in the US but with foreign registries and then turn around and market it as an American Riding Pony under that name? It doesn't make any sense to me. Either it's one or the other but how can it be both? Maybe I just don't understand the objections?

[Equine Reproduction]

This is exactly the trainwreck I am sad to see.
Its like taking a REAL Louis Vuitton bag and trying to sell it as a counterfeit.

Why is it those who CHOOSE not to call their ponies American when they have a choice, even though they are born and bred on American soil are the ones throwing a giant fit because others believe in calling their own American?

No, that's NOT what it is. Very poor analogy/comparison. It's like taking an American Quarter Horse, breeding it in Germany and trying to call it something else. The idea "should" be to promote breeding quality horses on American soil. What you are proposing is fragmentary and exclusionary and consequently causes the very fragmentation you are attempting to prevent.


My vision is to assist those already breeding American Sportpony or riding pony types in the US , regardless of breed, who are capable of competing at the higher levels in their disciplines, with an educational and national marketing program.

Your words, your quote. It's no skin off my nose one way or the other, but truly - if you wish to promote, educate and market ponies bred in the US/America, your criteria needs to be about birthplace and not breed. If you choose to exclude German Riding Ponies because of the name, then you probably need to look at excluding Arabians, Welsh, Connemaras, or anything that isn't "American" by birthright.

I truly have no dog in this fight and am playing devil's advocate here. My ponies are registered in such a way that they "would' qualify so it truly has no impact on what I breed. But if you wish to truly support fellow breeders, it needs to be inclusive and support ALL those that are breeding animals that fit into the category, i.e., "Pony" and "American". The broader the support, the more support you'll get for the program in return. <smile>...

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

and

Avalon Equine
Home of the Oldenburg stallion, Mannhattan
Check out our $350.00 breeding special!
http://www.avalon-equine.com

[ozjb]

Please forgive me for being a bit dense here. I am an American living in Australia and can't figure out what all the arguement is about.

We belong to our breed societies. We like to support them and if we sell something, it's always nice to have the paperwork.

We also belong to the Sport Pony Registry. If it's a pony, you can join. I don't think anyone much cares where it was born or who it's parents might be. The idea is to support and promote ponies who are out there competing along side the big boys. There are New Forest Ponies, Welsh Ponies, Connemaras, Australian Ponies (not to be confused with Australian Riding Ponies) whatever ponies.

We are looking at a Warmblood that simply didn't grow. At 5, he is 146 cm. He gets to join. I won't be able to get a permanent card for him until 7, but as long as he is at or under 149 cm with his shoes on, he's a pony. And he gets to belong to the Sport Pony Registry. I don't think I could register a 14.1 yearling because it's a horse and how long will it stay within the height requirements? Common sense does have a role here.

Our registry is fairly young and they do assessment tours if you want your mare or stallion assessed. I am pretty new to all of this, but I am really happy that a few people decided to put this all together and give it a go.

Getting the pony people together to promote these wonderful ponies is a super idea. I always like inclusive groups best.

Anyway, just my thoughts from the outside looking in.

[Tiki]

I think I'd better keep my mouth shut, but .................................:no::no::no:

[092556]

MagicRoseFarm
Let me see if I can figure this out, American Riding Pony.com is a website you started to help breeders in America to promote their riding ponies that were born in America.

It's your website, you have been kind enough to invite others, make the rules and see what happens you can always tweek them later on.

I started a website so when my friends and I have a pony for sale we can post videos of them and email links to the page that has their videos on. That way I don't have to burn dvds for them, I just have to go video their ponies. I'll put any videos of ponies that live in the North and Central Florida Area free of charge. And yes I even put horse videos on for friends, I gave them a page for their farm. It's my website I can do whatever I want!! :D

http://floridaponies4sale.com

[MagicRoseFarm]

Kathy it was fragmented long before... its either an import, or foreign, or European ,,, or its American

I too prefer to think wholeheartedly for the many this group includes, some of whom have very little else that DOES include them.

[Daydream Believer]

No, that's NOT what it is. Very poor analogy/comparison. It's like taking an American Quarter Horse, breeding it in Germany and trying to call it something else. The idea "should" be to promote breeding quality horses on American soil. What you are proposing is fragmentary and exclusionary and consequently causes the very fragmentation you are attempting to prevent.

Kathy I just read your post 5 times and I am not sure I understand the QH analogy as to this situation. If I understand what you are saying you are supporting Wendy's position in saying that you can't take a German Riding Pony, breed it in the US and call it something else? Correct? I may be a bit slow as I spent a long day out in the cold and I'm tired so forgive me if I totally got that backwards. :confused:

There are any number of quality ponies being bred on American soil under an American label and name. I think all she is trying to do is create a place for those ponies to be promoted. It's only exclusionary to the point as to which registries you as a breeder support. If those GRP's were cross registered with the ASPR and then called American Sport Ponies, I suspect that would be fine.

I would agree that this organization would overall support all US pony breeders regardless of breed or affiliation if it was something like "US Sport Pony Breeders Group" or something like that...but the idea seems to be devoted to promoting an "American" Riding Pony so the concept was intended to be exclusive from the beginning and perhaps people misunderstood her intentions? That's just my take on it...

[Equine Reproduction]

I think I'd better keep my mouth shut, but .................................:no::no::no:

<lol>...Oh come on, Sheila!! Where's your sense of adventure. But truly, good discussion and suggestions can often help iron out the wrinkles.

Kathy it was fragmented long before... its either an import, or foreign, or European ,,, or its American .....

Ahhh...yes. The key is where it's born! In other words, you are willing to accept foals that are by Wedderlie Mardi Gras (sorry Gretchen, he was easy <smile>) because he's Welsh and the foals meet the criteria, despite the fact that Mardi Gras is imported. But you would exclude my GRP that is by Mardi Gras and out of a mare that is two generations American bred because of what his registration papers are? The foal is not imported. He's not "foreign". His registry is descriptive of what he is. Just like a registered Welsh pony is descriptive of what that pony would be.

But, as others have noted, it "is" your website and your program. And obviously, you're not going to be able to please everyone <smile>.

Hope the above helps provide a little bit of insight. I rarely get involved in this type of discussion, but it does have some interesting possibilities and I think many such grass roots movements lose their momentum because they don't provide for all that they could and I'm always a bit puzzled as to "why". Good luck with it!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

and

Avalon Equine
Home of the Oldenburg stallion, Mannhattan
Check out our $350.00 Breeding Special!
http://www.avalon-equine.com

[exvet]

Interesting discussion guys. I just got back from a 4 ring dressage show. There were 2, count them, 2 ponies at this show, that is those meeting the definition by height. One was my daughter's welsh cob at 14.1 and a haflinger at 13.3. Now if you count based on "pony breed registry" there were 3. The two already mentioned and my welsh cob gelding. I received 6 inquiries while at the show including one from one of the judges who during my test was debating with the scribe - is he a mustang? (hey DDB you got to love that one :winkgrin:), a lusitano? or some cross? When I told them that he is a welsh cob the scribe was literally jumping up and down with glee, 'cause she was right. The show photographer followed us around all Saturday (rained today) 'cause he felt "those feathers & the extended gaits" were really worth photographing. There were quite a few people gushing over and interested in the "ponies" including a young rider who's trainer said, "yeah we all want one but that isn't going to get you to NAYRC". Kind of put the "growing popularity" into perspective yet again for me.

I talked to show management. Not enough interest to justify a division or class for ponies only, at least with all that they're trying to do and cram in; but, they have no problem with sponsoring awards/trophies for high score this or that at a particular show or even as a year end award. They do it for the Arabs - a perpetual trophy for the highest test average for any arab that shows above 1st level at the two "big" GMO sponsored shows (1 in the spring and 1 in the fall). I would have no problem trying to sponsor such an award but when my stock are the only ones vying to win it.......well it transcends self-serving and becomes pathetic at that point. I was also told that there have been absolutely no requests for an FEI pony class as of yet. Not surprised for my area.

BTW we earned a personal best - 69.5% at third 3 against the BIG GUYS. We may not be pony. We may not be horse but we were the BEST yesterday if I do say so myself :D. You all can continue to argue. Sounds like I'll just keep doing my thing, hoping our time at the shows help our cause and waitin' in the wings to see what y'all hash out :winkgrin:

[Equine Reproduction]

Kathy I just read your post 5 times and I am not sure I understand the QH analogy as to this situation. If I understand what you are saying you are supporting Wendy's position in saying that you can't take a German Riding Pony, breed it in the US and call it something else? Correct? I may be a bit slow as I spent a long day out in the cold and I'm tired so forgive me if I totally got that backwards. :confused:

<smile>...I'm probably not articulating it well. My understanding of what Wendy is attempting to do is promote American bred ponies. It's NOT about what breed it is, but about who is breeding them where. At least that's what I "think" she's attempting to do. If not, than forgive me for interjecting!

There are any number of quality ponies being bred on American soil under an American label and name. I think all she is trying to do is create a place for those ponies to be promoted. It's only exclusionary to the point as to which registries you as a breeder support. If those GRP's were cross registered with the ASPR and then called American Sport Ponies, I suspect that would be fine.

But, if that's the case, then you would need to expect Connemaras and Welsh and anything else that is "accepted" to be cross registered, no? My understanding is that it's a "group" promoting American bred ponies, not a registry promoting American bred ponies.

I would agree that this organization would overall support all US pony breeders regardless of breed or affiliation if it was something like "US Sport Pony Breeders Group" or something like that...but the idea seems to be devoted to promoting an "American" Riding Pony so the concept was intended to be exclusive from the beginning and perhaps people misunderstood her intentions? That's just my take on it...

Is it a registry or an organization? In reading her original posts, it would appear that she's interested in promoting sport ponies bred in the U.S. (North America?). But, then the tenor changed to promoting only animals that are registered with certain registries and if the animals are not, then they are excluded. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the intent.

But, ExVet is spot on. By working towards a unified organization, you have more voice and thus more clout. Squeaky wheel and all <smile>

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

and

Avalon Equine
Home of the Oldenburg stallion, Mannhattan
Check out our $350.00 Breeding Special!
http://www.avalon-equine.com

[MagicRoseFarm]

The unwavering intent is simply to claim American heritage hence the name American Riding Pony.

My Hanoverians have German heritage. My GOV horses have German heritage, I did not create this. IT JUST IS because that is how I chose to present them, and because they were accepted.

My dual registered Half Welsh and American Sportpony has American Heritage - TWICE. I did not create this. IT JUST IS because of how I chose to present him, and because he was accepted.

Some ponies have foreign heritage, not because their owner's chose it , but because they chose to register them with an association that claims their heritage as other than American.

I do not understand all the bruhaha at all.. We want to encourage a bigger future for ponies who claim American heritage. Nowhere on the site will you see anything demoting anyone's registry of choice,or even demoting them for choosing not to register their pony.

You will only find us singing the praises of those successful partbreds, purebreds, halfbreds, fullbreds and crossbreds claiming American heritage.

Its not disjointing, its not excluding. It just IS

[rideagoldenpony]

I'm really sorry -- I think I'm seriously dense, but I just don't get it.

Let's take the Connemara and Welsh for example. Both are ponies, both breeds well represented in America. Yes? However, both are "native breeds" -- ie native to OTHER countries. Yes?

So if someone is breeding one of those breeds here in the USA, or crossing them with, say, an Arabian (just for example) --- are the resulting offspring, purebred or partbred, eligible for this new group? Or not?

I apologize for asking, but I truly don't understand what the criteria is for something being a part of this group.

Could you please clarify? Talk to me like I'm 4. ;)

[MagicRoseFarm]

Gretchen, I think it is getting way more confusing by all the hype... Your guy is a good example,, He is imported , standing on American Soil, you basically breed offspring with American heritage.

You breed him to "Cookie" a lovely Sporttype mare that has a lovely record. The owner may or may not know her breeding, and the mare may or may not be registered with an American Association.

She does not register the offspring with any association but it is born in North America. YES this site is here to help promote her offspring

She registers the offspring with any American based Association, yes the site is here to help promote the offspring.

If the offspring is registered with a foreign association, then no.

[rideagoldenpony]

Thank you, that helps.

By "only registered with a foreign association" -- do you mean if a pony was registered *only* as a German Riding Pony (like RPSI or Weser-Ems) or only had UK papers (if a native breed), etc? Is that the "exclusion" here?

So if a US born "German Riding Pony" is inspected and approved with, say ASPR, THEN does it become eligible?

I'm really trying to understand here!!!

[MagicRoseFarm]

By "only registered with a foreign association" -- do you mean if a pony was registered *only* as a German Riding Pony (like RPSI or Weser-Ems) or only had UK papers (if a native breed), etc? Is that the "exclusion" here? yes

If this pony also produced an offspring that was born in North America and then registered With a UK association, this offspring would NOT be invited.



So if a US born "German Riding Pony" is inspected and approved with, say ASPR, THEN does it become eligible? yes, because the offspring would be eligible to claim American heritage

It would not even have to be US born, as long as it stands on US soil, IF it is contributing to the future of American sporttypes. (Also, the site will not acknowledge its foreign affiliation.)

[hluing]

A pony is only supposed to have one set of registration papers. It would not be proper to register a pony as Weser-Ems and ASPR (besides being just ridiculous!).

I agree with whoever broght up an idea of a US (Sport) Pony Association, etc...what we NEED is a group we can ALL get behind and try to make more things happen and available in sport. Wendy can say this is not a registry...but it sure smells like one. It is a far cry from the Australian Sport Pony Assoc. and it still seems an awful much like ASPR.

[exvet]

I agree with whoever broght up an idea of a US (Sport) Pony Association, etc...what we NEED is a group we can ALL get behind and try to make more things happen and available in sport.

Now this I can get behind. I don't see the need for all the exclusions if it is a pony by measurement or pony (cob) by breed and used to produce ponies (sometimes) AND competes (or its produce does) in the sport disciplines. While I agree that there are actually several registries/organizations that supposedly help their memberships market what they have, some are lacking in that they either have a different focus or another agenda than promote specifically for the sport disciplines. I have to agree with Gretchen in that for the most part, at least for now, we really cannot rely on others to promote us and thus must toot our own horn (as annoying as that is to others at times). I was somewhat involved with the midwest sport horse breeders group early on around the time of its inception that was when I was into holsteiners. What I liked about it was the effort made towards networking breeders, especially to help those who produce only 1-2 horses per year or every other year and in more remote areas.

I get people at shows asking me about my breed and who do I know for sale with a specific set of criteria. I typically have my breed directory with me and a decent memory of what I've seen/heard for sale lately across the country and pass on the information. I also will pass out business cards of a couple of breeders whose stock I'm showing. Not pointing fingers at anyone 'cause I realize many posting have a long list of accomplishments but we need more ambassadors out there doing it and not just giving it lip service.

[Daydream Believer]

A pony is only supposed to have one set of registration papers. It would not be proper to register a pony as Weser-Ems and ASPR (besides being just ridiculous!).



Huh?:confused: Ridiculous? Many WB stallions are registered with their parent registry and then their owners chose to SUPPORT an American registry like AWS or AWR also. No one looks down on them for that! I personally know several GRP stallions that are registered with their German registry, ISR and ASPR. What is the big deal?

To my thinking, supporting multiple registries when you can is one way of opening doors and markets...and here is a great example. Support an American Registry like ASPR or AWS with your GRP's and you get the option of marketing your ponies as both GRP's and American Riding ponies. ;)

I don't see Wendy's organization as excluding anyone who does not want to be excluded.

[Equine Reproduction]

Huh?:confused: Ridiculous? Many WB stallions are registered with their parent registry and then their owners chose to SUPPORT an American registry like AWS or AWR also. No one looks down on them for that! I personally know several GRP stallions that are registered with their German registry, ISR and ASPR. What is the big deal?

No. They are registered with ONE registry. They "may" be approved and licensed with others. Mannhattan would be an example of that. He is registered with the Oldenburg N.A. and is only registered with the Oldenburg N.A. He has one registration number. However, he is licensed and approved for breeding with the Oldenburg N.A. and the Belgian Warmblood Breeding Association. Any offspring he has is eligible for registration with either of those registries (if the dam is inspected or approved by either) but not both.

To my thinking, supporting multiple registries when you can is one way of opening doors and markets...and here is a great example. Support an American Registry like ASPR or AWS with your GRP's and you get the option of marketing your ponies as both GRP's and American Riding ponies. ;)

Yes you "can" do it. But it is redundant and if you are producing multiple foals each year, it also adds to the expense. I think most pony breeders will say that there just isn't a huge profit in most ponies and money does become an issue.

I don't see Wendy's organization as excluding anyone who does not want to be excluded.

I do! It's not supporting American bred ponies and American breeders. It's supporting American based registries. Two very different things. What I'm kinda scratching my head over is the fact that the very ponies that she is excluding, e.g., ponies that don't have American based registration papers, 99% of those ponies would be eligible for American based registration papers. I used my GRP as a prime example. His 1/2 Welsh papers would make him eligible. I wouldn't bother getting the 1/2 Welsh papers in order to become a part of the "group", but I would in order to make him more appealing and marketable to anyone interested in purchasing him.

Perhaps getting behind the UELN and making it a requirement that the pony has a UELN that is an American number would be a better idea. For example, a Welsh Pony that is imported would have a UK UELN whereas a Welsh Pony that is born and registered here would have a US UELN. But insisting that the ponies that would be eligible must be registered wiht an American based registry "is" exclusionary and not promoting the very premise I believe the OP was trying to promote. Most American based registries of foreign countries, (Holsteiner, for example) will have a US Prefix so one KNOWS that horse is born and bred here in the US. Just a thought.

The group does have potential, but the way it is currently planned for structure will exclude some of your potentially biggest supporters.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[Tiki]

OK Kathy, here goes.

Many WB stallions are registered with their parent registry and then their owners chose to SUPPORT an American registry like AWS or AWR also.As Kathy said, these horses are approved for breeding with multiple registries, NOT registered. You can only register with ONE WB registry. The only multiple registrations allowed are, for example, half Welsh/GRP or half Arab/GRP (or correspondingly for horses, half Arab/RPSI, etc.)


As far as this goes, it is absolute nonsense!
My dual registered Half Welsh and American Sportpony has American Heritage - TWICE. I did not create this. IT JUST IS because of how I chose to present him, and because he was accepted.

Some ponies have foreign heritage, not because their owner's chose it , but because they chose to register them with an association that claims their heritage as other than American.

I am an American - 3rd generation. My heritage is IRISH!!! You've got it absolutely backwards. The heritage is in the breeding NOT in the registration or the place of birth!!!

However, it is YOUR website. Do with it as you please, but do PLEASE call a spade a spade. Your half Welsh is half Welsh by heritage and ASPR by registration. The American heritage would be QH, Morgan, ASB, TWH, Rocky Mountain, POA. These are not generally considered sport horses in the Olympic discipline sense of the word.

[MagicRoseFarm]

A new day, just a note , the site is growing QUICKLY!!! I am soo happy. Hang in there, we are getting your submissions up as fast as we have time.

I DO think we need a FAQS page... so it's on the list of TTD..

[MagicRoseFarm]

It's not supporting American bred ponies and American breeders. It's supporting American based registries. Two very different things. What I'm kinda scratching my head over is the fact that the very ponies that she is excluding, e.g., ponies that don't have American based registration papers, 99% of those ponies would be eligible for American based registration papers. I used my GRP as a prime example. His 1/2 Welsh papers would make him eligible. I wouldn't bother getting the 1/2 Welsh papers in order to become a part of the "group", but I would in order to make him more appealing and marketable to anyone interested in purchasing him.

The site is not about American Registries. It will accept American bred sportpony types that are UNregistered, AND sportpony types whose offspring are currently registerable with an American based Breed or Type association.

[Daydream Believer]

So what you both are saying is that the papers issued by the ASPR (which I used to have a mare with them) were not registration papers? That is not what I recall but I don't claim to know all that much about the mystery of WB registrations and approvals which are enough to boggle the mind. Either way, it would seem that approval with an American registry is enough to qualify for this group as that question was answered earlier.

I do find it a bit humorous to see it turned around as I am usually among the group excluded from eligibility since I have a non Euro approved breed. I've gotten used to it and don't take offense if RPSI or Weser Em's or whoever don't view my stock as "acceptable." Whatever...each to their own and I am quite happy with my choices. I do however feel there is a need for someone to promote American horses and ponies at this time when so many place so much value on Euro imports compared to American stock and particularly that stock only registered by American registries like the dreaded AWS or AWR. I have no bone in that fight as my horses are not registered or approved in either but there sure does seem to be a stigma attached to supporting those registries and perhaps that is problem for some folks?

I was asked at the Sport Horse stallion show by someone there if my stallion, who's ancestors had been in the Americas for 500 years, was imported. I asked him why he thought that when he knew what his breed was and he said "because of his quality." I wasn't sure if I should laugh or cry at that comment and it speaks volumes about how American stock is viewed by many people. I took his comment as a compliment though...as I believe it was intended...and just told him my stallion was imported from Wyoming. ;-) Personally I am very proud of his American heritage and don't want someone to think he's from Europe.

I do think I understand what she is trying to do...to promote the "American" in our ponies not just American breds of foreign registries such as you mentioned. Yes, they were born in America but you don't call them American Sport Ponies or Riding Ponies...you call them German Riding ponies or Weser Em's, Oldenburgs, etc... and I think that is all she is saying. I am a bit confused as to why that is so upsetting to people I guess.

[Tiki]

Papers issued by the American Sport Pony REGISTRY are indeed registration papers. What you can not do is also register with any other WB registry, e.g. Hannoverian, GOV, Dutch, etc. You CAN register with the registries that don't inspect, e.g. half Welsh, or half Arab if the horse qualifies, but NOT with a registry that inspects and/or brands/microchips.

[Daydream Believer]

Papers issued by the American Sport Pony REGISTRY are indeed registration papers. What you can not do is also register with any other WB registry, e.g. Hannoverian, GOV, Dutch, etc. You CAN register with the registries that don't inspect, e.g. half Welsh, or half Arab if the horse qualifies, but NOT with a registry that inspects and/or brands/microchips.

So how did the imported GRP's I know manage to get ASPR papers on top of their German registries? The ones I am talking about are Nancy Ferebee's stallions who I know for a fact were both Euro registered and ASPR registered. I think she also did ISR for at least one of them.

[Home Again Farm]

DB,

I believe you are confusing "approved by" as opposed to registered with. In the case of the stallions you mention above (Ferebee's), they are registered with one assn, but approved by several, among others ASPR. The same can hold true of mares, which will be registered with only one society, but can be approved for breeding by many. :yes:

See quote from one stallion's page below as clarification:

1996Imported Weser-Ems German Riding Pony Stallion, Chestnut 14.2H/147.5 cm

Approved ISR…AWR…ASPR…Weser-Ems (Oldenburg Pony)…Mecklenburg-Vorpommern

[ljshorses]

So how did the imported GRP's I know manage to get ASPR papers on top of their German registries? The ones I am talking about are Nancy Ferebee's stallions who I know for a fact were both Euro registered and ASPR registered. I think she also did ISR for at least one of them.


To try and clear this up and answer your question...her stallions are registered GRPs but approved for breeding ASPR. Registered and approved are two different things. One is papers one is "approved for breeding" by that allow it's offspring to be papered in another registry.

I have a friend that has a purebred Welsh stallion but he has ASPR breeding approval. He is then also allowed (this I don't quite grasp) to show in ASPR classes which allow both registered ASPRs and Approved for Breeding ASPRs to compete against each other.

Another example is the Hanoverian stallion (ughh forgot his name now) that is registered full Hanoverian but is 14.3h and is approved ASPR. He also has been at shows like DAD competing with all others that are either registered or Approved for Breeding ASPRs...and could be shown in the Hanoverian IBC class as well due to his heritage or registration papers.

[Daydream Believer]

Wow, that is confusing. So what you are saying is that if I took my stallion who is registered with two Col. Spanish registries...HOA and SMR and then took him to the ASPR (which is poss) than he could only be approved by them and not registered?

I still think thought that it doesn't matter does it? Apparently approval with ASPR would be sufficient for this group for the purposes of membership?

[Tiki]

I guess you missed this in my first answer As Kathy said, these horses are approved for breeding with multiple registries, NOT registered. You can only register with ONE WB registry. The only multiple registrations allowed are, for example, half Welsh/GRP or half Arab/GRP (or correspondingly for horses, half Arab/RPSI, etc.)emphasis added for clarification.

Registration is what you do at birth, approval is what registered (in one registry) mares and stallions go through at around 3 years old for approval as breeding stock. They can be registered in only one registry, they can be approved for breeding in any and every one you want to take them to that accepts them as meeting their breeding criteria.

The inspections for mares and foals are similar - stood up for conformation, walked and trotted for movement evaluation. Some do it free, some in hand. Stallions have a much stricter inspection for breeding and usually some sort of stallion performance test or high level show results. Normally, they cannot be registered in their birth registry past the age of 2 years. They SHOULD be presented with the mum - who is approved for breeding with that registry and by a stallion approved for breeding with that registry - and they are issued registration papers. Some registries allow foals of parents, both of whom are already approved by the registry for breeding, to be registered by mail, but then they don't get inspector's evaluations.

Hope that makes it clearer.:winkgrin:

[Tiki]

So what you are saying is that if I took my stallion who is registered with two Col. Spanish registries...HOA and SMR and then took him to the ASPR (which is poss) than he could only be approved by them and not registered? Yup.

You could possibly register foals with ASPR if they meet their criteria, but your breeding adults are already registered. Then you could 'double register' the foals with ASPR (a WB registry) and your Col. Spanish registry.

[Daydream Believer]

Oh, OK...I think I understand finally. That seems a bit odd coming from my background as my stallion can be registered with about 5 registries that he qualifies for by his bloodlines and breed...and two of those do inspections...but registered is registered with papers and all and he can be called a Barb, Spanish Barb or whatever the registry calls them. I never realized that WB's were "different" that way. Thanks for the enlightenment! :-)

[Hoppy2]

I have a friend that has a purebred Welsh stallion but he has ASPR breeding approval. He is then also allowed (this I don't quite grasp) to show in ASPR classes which allow both registered ASPRs and Approved for Breeding ASPRs to compete against each other

This I don't understand as well,if I remember correctly,and some one let me know,that an american sport pony should move and look like a horse. So how can a pony,who looks very much like a pony, compete against the sportponies. Sorry for the interuption but it has weighed on my mind for a while.

[ljshorses]

I have a friend that has a purebred Welsh stallion but he has ASPR breeding approval. He is then also allowed (this I don't quite grasp) to show in ASPR classes which allow both registered ASPRs and Approved for Breeding ASPRs to compete against each other

This I don't understand as well,if I remember correctly,and some one let me know,that an american sport pony should move and look like a horse. So how can a pony,who looks very much like a pony, compete against the sportponies. Sorry for the interuption but it has weighed on my mind for a while.


I feel and share your confusion on that one, but I have witnessed this too many times. I have seen GRPs, Welsh, Connemarra, And diminutive or stunted horse pony and honies show against each other in ASPR classes. It boggles the mind. The only thing these guys have in common is the ASPR umbrella which in my opinion needs some more specifics and guidelines to incompass all that wish to stay under it and not get wet, lol. I definitely understand the difference between registry and approval for breeding, but don't necessarily agree they should be allowed to show against each other. But this happens with horses too (just not always so apparent). For instance, I believe a TB registered mare that is approved say ISR/Oldenburg can be shown in the ISR/Oldenburg IBCs against warmbloods that are registered ISR/Oldenburg. But now with many warmbloods showing influences from so many other warmblood "breeds" and TB and Arabian blood, it is sometimes very hard to tell say a pure by blood TB from a registered say Hanoverian or Westphalian, or Oldenburg etc... etc...

[Home Again Farm]

For instance, I believe a TB registered mare that is approved say ISR/Oldenburg can be shown in the ISR/Oldenburg IBCs against warmbloods that are registered ISR/Oldenburg. But now with many warmbloods showing influences from so many other warmblood "breeds" and TB and Arabian blood, it is sometimes very hard to tell say a pure by blood TB from a registered say Hanoverian or Westphalian, or Oldenburg etc... etc...

Apologies for the fact that we are getting somewhat OT here. I have three registered Oldenburg mares who, though approved for Hanoverian, would never be eligible to show in a Hanoverian IBC. I find it a bit strange that a mare of another registry that is approved ISR/Old would be able to show in their IBC. Just seems very odd.:confused:

[Tiki]

I don't think it is allowed. The IBC requires that you submit a copy of the registration papers. A few years ago we all got notes from Lori to return our ribbons for exchange as it was determined that a horse that was entered turned out to not be eligible as an ISR/OLNA horse and we all moved up one place.

[ljshorses]

Well that may be true as I am going on old memory and it may no longer be allowed for horses, but I saw just last year ASPR classes with registered Hanoverians and Welshes in it...so maybe the ponies still allow the approved for breeding guys to show against the registered ones? I am glad that it isn't allowed in the warmblood horse classes 'cause that just never set well with me. I still don't agree with the ponies doing it but maybe they are more lenient to get bigger classes?

[Tiki]

Maybe ASPR writes its own rules. I guess most registries do, but the other WB registries seem to be pretty standard.

[DownYonder]

You know, I don't have a dog in this fight, but it seems to me that you would want to be inclusive of ALL sport pony breeders - no matter what registry they use, for the simple reason that a larger, more inclusive group is going to have more clout. If you want to someday get that USEF sport pony division some of you have been hoping for, your chances are far better with a larger group than with several smaller, fragmented groups.

[MagicRoseFarm]

I am a bit dissapointed ,, I have kept pretty quiet while everyone trashes and thrashes... trying to stick to the facts about what I CHOOSE as my involvement in supporting American Pony breeding.

The German Riding Pony Breeders in North America have had an Organization for quite sometime to promote THEIR ponies,they do not invite American ponies or any other group to join them.

Suddenly all of this negativity surfaces because some choose to support American ponies, attempting to trash the effort, (once again) to the point of trashing American Associations.

The saddest thing about it all,, is WE ARE IN AMERICA.

[Equine Reproduction]

I am a bit dissapointed ,, I have kept pretty quiet while everyone trashes and thrashes... trying to stick to the facts about what I CHOOSE as my involvement in supporting American Pony breeding.

I think you misunderstand productive discussion for "trashing". Definitely NOT the same. I think where the confusion is you are saying you wish to do one thing, but what you are actually wanting to do is quite another. Nothing wrong with that, you just need to be clear on it.

The German Riding Pony Breeders in North America have had an Organization for quite sometime to promote THEIR ponies,they do not invite American ponies or any other group to join them.

Not entirely true, either. The GRP most certainly accepts other breeds into their midst. But they are a registry...not an organization that's attempting to promote specifically, American bred ponies...

Suddenly all of this negativity surfaces because some choose to support American ponies, attempting to trash the effort, (once again) to the point of trashing American Associations.

Again, I'm not seeing any negativity here, just puzzlement as to what it is you are attempting to do. And I certainly don't see it as trashing American Associations. There are limited options in this country for sport ponies. The ASPR is, to some extent, trying to create one, but as you can see by some of the posts here, it "is" confusing.

The saddest thing about it all,, is WE ARE IN AMERICA.

Yup. So, I am again puzzled by what it is you're attempting to do. I, like several others that have commented here, have no real dog in this fight. I do, however, understand the wish and desire to promote American breeding. It has long been an argument of mine in warmblood breeding, as well. I think that we need to promote what we are doing here. But, I definitely don't think we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Steal what is working from other registries and associations and throw out that which isn't! I LIKE the "Born In The USA" programs we have, although I don't think they are as far reaching and encompassing as they could be. Why? Because they "do" promote what American Breeders are accomplishing, not what they are importing!

I think you have an idea that can work and can be a phenomenal resource for pony breeders in this country. Don't look at the comments being made here as negative, but rather as an opportunity for education! I certainly don't see where anyone has "trashed" the idea, but rather are putting forth some very real concerns! I've certainly seen enough small organizations started that flopped because they were directed at just too small a group and lost their momentum because of that!

Ultimately it "is" your's to do what you wish with. Good luck with it! I've got nothing further to add to the discussion that hasn't already been stated, so I think I'll bow out.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

And

Avalon Equine
Home of the Oldenburg stallion, Mannhattan
Check out our $350.00 Breeding Special!
http://www.avalon-equine.com

[hluing]

Magic Rose...what German Riding Pony Association are you talking about? I would love to join it! haha...trust me...we do NOT have anyone or group or association out there promoting GRP's. Breeding GRP's quite an adventure. We have NO all breeds awards, no awards period. There are still only a handful of breeders. Trust me, I feel very much on my own. But I love the breed...I belive in the registry and breed standard and it is a heck of an adventure.

I am also very much an American breeder. My mares are (gasp) American bred! I have two stallion prospects, both out of imported parents...but BORN in American.

I understand your basic concept. What I am not clear on is exactly why you want to exclude GRP breeders from your idea. We are as American as Welsh breeders, Connemara breeders, etc. It really is just a matter of just words.

[092556]

What is?
http://grpbreeders.org

the home page says

German Riding Pony Breeders Association


WELCOME…

GRPBA is a non-profit organization to bring together stallion owners, breeders, riders and admirers of German Riding Ponies in one convenient location.

All those who are being excluded from American Riding Pony website should put their energy into the German Riding Pony Breeders Association.

[hluing]

Yes, like I already mentioned on the other thread...this is a website I started a couple years ago to help promote GRP's. My husband put up the website (which is sadly out of date). I pay the $5 or so monthly to host it...and anyone with GRP's is welcome to post on it. In fact, now that it was brought up here...if anyone wants to get involved...let me know.

Sorry, just an outdated website out in cyberspace is hardly promotion or support! GRP breeders are small in numbers... most of the few breeders out there breed one mare. We really seem to be lacking the numbers right now to get something like this up and running. I think quite a few breeds may be like that. Precisely why coming together and unifying is IMPORTANT!

[092556]

hluing
So I can use your website to promote my pony mare who is out of an Anglo/Trak mare and by a Section A Welsh Stallion and my pony mare that is Hafflinger X Arab. Or do they have to be register or approved GRP.

[MagicRoseFarm]

What is?
http://grpbreeders.org

the home page says

German Riding Pony Breeders Association


WELCOME…

GRPBA is a non-profit organization to bring together stallion owners, breeders, riders and admirers of German Riding Ponies in one convenient location.

All those who are being excluded from American Riding Pony website should put their energy into the German Riding Pony Breeders Association.


hluing> Heather , I think the excerpt above says it all....

There is a sales page, breeders list, list of approved registries, show results and news,,,

I apologize in advance everyone, I have had enough of the BS.

Please go support your German Riding Ponies in America, and stop trashing and harassing others and their NEw Forest, Welsh, and Connemara, unregistered and otherwise American bred ponies..

It's people like you that make the rest of us wonder why we bother when we attempt to do something unselfish ,and then have to listen to all the cackling. Noone tried to sit on your egg.

[pwynnnorman]

Time for a lecture!!!


The American Marketing Association (AMA) defines a brand as a "name, term, sign, symbol or design, or a combination of them intended to identify the goods and services of one seller or group of sellers and to differentiate them from those of other sellers."
From: http://marketing.about.com/cs/brandmktg/a/whatisbranding.htm


So allllllllll of this is just a simple little marketing thing, folks: using a NAME to make a distinction. Look at it honestly: it's about competition, plain and simple. MagicRose is trying to create a site that will help US (non-import breeders) compete against YOU (import breeders). It doesn't mean you or we are any better or worse. It's only meant to help us COMPETE by establishing nomenclature that distinguishes us from you. That, in all honesty, is why you are excluded. This is what the real world does all the time. It's ain't personal. It's just marketing. Get used to it.

Edited to add: Think of it this way--if you didn't exist, or if your ponies weren't so darn good and proven, we wouldn't need the name!

[hluing]

MagicRose...Let me be clear here....I have NOT trashed anyone! It is obvious it is pointless to discuss this with you...I have no idea why you are so angry. If you noticed, there are two New Forrest Ponies on the GRP site. It is open for any pony approved with a GRP organization. You do NOT have to import something to be approved for breeding.

I am a big fan of Welsh ponies, Arabians, all sorts of breeds. If anyone is Anti anything in this discussion...I think it is you. I should have trusted my gut and left this discussion several pages ago before it became personal attacks. My problem is I am so passionate about ponies and always hopeful about something good happening...apparently today is not the day....

[ljshorses]

uhhh, my ponies are not imported and they are excluded. I think this is now heading down the wrong path. So I just wanted to say a few things I got from this thread:

I misunderstood initially the intent and thought it was to support American Sport Pony breeders which I am yet I am not included.

Secondly, anyone can start a group and choose to include or disclude anyone, I may not agree but I support freedom of speech and whether I like it or not it is neither here nor there.

Thirdly, I really have not seen any bashing anywhere so I am not sure why some insist that that is happening. I see discussion, and possibly constructive discussion, but no real bashing of any one group. I for one support all pony breeders, hey it's tough to be one!

Lastly, I think we may be taking too much too personally and if I need to go solely to a GRP group to help support my program (American bred RPSI approved breeding stock) so be it, I simply thought a unified group of all pony breeders would be a stronger force.

Again, best wishes to however this group ends up. Pony publicity is a good thing for all of us American Pony breeders, included or not.

[Tiki]

Please go support your German Riding Ponies in America, and stop trashing and harassing others and their NEw Forest, Welsh, and Connemara, unregistered and otherwise American bred ponies.. But New Forest are an English breed, Welsh are Welsh, Connemara are Irish. What IS the difference in those ponies/breeds bred in America and GRP's as a breed/type bred in America. It seems you are excluding ponies based on registry, NOT place of birth. In that you are being even more exclusive than ASPR, which DOES accept stallions, certainly, that are not bred here, but now you are calling them American because they are approved for breeding here even if they were NOT bred here.

I just don't get it, and I, too, don't understand why you are soooooooo angry at the questions. Questions are not trashing anyone - they're just questions.

[pwynnnorman]

But New Forest are an English breed, Welsh are Welsh, Connemara are Irish. What IS the difference in those ponies/breeds bred in America and GRP's as a breed/type bred in America.

This type of response treats this subject as though it is based on facts and logic. It isn't, folks. There is no difference real difference between Great American food products and Grand Union food products as they sit there on the grocery store shelves. However, the former is an American-based company and the latter is from Great Britain (I think). Do you think the name "Great American" was chosen arbitrarily? Of course not. It was chosen for marketing reasons.

Nevertheless, I wonder, just for the sake of harmony--because we do need all the support we can get in our industry--what if there were a compromise? One consistent thing about all of the "Riding Pony" registeries around the world is that they are registeries of crossbred ponies--breeds crossed to produce a specific type and/or for a specific discipline(s).

What if this new idea restricted itself only to crossbreds born in the USA? That way, an imported stallion could sire an ARP, while all purebred ponies would be excluded (as, in my opinion, they should be because they already have marketing outlets through their registeries). And since crossbreds have to come from somewhere, purebred stallions could be listed on a resource page, but would not be eligible for any other "benefits" of participation (classes, awards, advertising, promotional profiles, photo displays, etc.), except maybe stallion service auctions?????

Would something like that be acceptable? Would the "crossbred" reasoning be more palatable?

[ljshorses]

This type of response treats this subject as though it is based on facts and logic. It isn't, folks. There is no difference real difference between Great American food products and Grand Union food products as they sit there on the grocery store shelves. However, the former is an American-based company and the latter is from Great Britain (I think). Do you think the name "Great American" was chosen arbitrarily? Of course not. It was chosen for marketing reasons.

Nevertheless, I wonder, just for the sake of harmony--because we do need all the support we can get in our industry--what if there were a compromise? One consistent thing about all of the "Riding Pony" registeries around the world is that they are registeries of crossbred ponies--breeds crossed to produce a specific type and/or for a specific discipline(s).

What if this new idea restricted itself only to crossbreds born in the USA? That way, an imported stallion could sire an ARP, while all purebred ponies would be excluded (as, in my opinion, they should be because they already have marketing outlets through their registeries). And since crossbreds have to come from somewhere, purebred stallions could be listed on a resource page, but would not be eligible for any other "benefits" of participation (classes, awards, advertising, promotional profiles, photo displays, etc.), except maybe stallion service auctions?????

Would something like that be acceptable? Would the "crossbred" reasoning be more palatable?


Pretty cool idea!

[Daydream Believer]

Well, that would eliminate any number of us breeding bloodline based breeds primarily but it would provide a place for our stallion's crossbred offspring to be registered. As for support in marketing from our breed registry...you must be kidding!

[exvet]

As for support in marketing from our breed registry...you must be kidding!

Hee, hee, hee, hee, hee, hee....that's what I thought too!

There is very little compromising that isn't going to leave someone's feathers ruffled. I think a marketing group/support group that includes ponies and/or pony breeds that demonstrate performance records either individually or through their get is really what is needed; but, then I have one of the outcast type breeds whenever this discussion comes up; so.............as usual take with a grain of salt.

[MagicRoseFarm]

think a marketing group/support group that includes ponies and/or pony breeds that demonstrate performance records either individually or through their get is really what is needed;

This is a goal for this site, for now at the national level. I hope eventually there will be a place within the site for any "big brags". Possibly through a "Pony Blog" of some sort.

[not again]

There seems to be a lot of confusion between a marketing site and a registry. Kudos to MRF for getting the ball rolling for pony news and support for marketing. The Euro based registries seem to be doing plenty for their American members. It seems over the top to complain that an American breeder is doing something for American papered ponies and cross-breds. With all the US dollars flowing into the Euro papered ones there must be plenty of $ to put into their own efforts.

[pwynnnorman]

Well, that would eliminate any number of us breeding bloodline based breeds primarily but it would provide a place for our stallion's crossbred offspring to be registered. As for support in marketing from our breed registry...you must be kidding!

Ahh, BUT, DB, I've tried to inject a bit of logic into this and so even though your breed registry doesn't help much with marketing, we can't have much compassion for your plight because, first and foremost, your breed itself wasn't bred for the specific goals this "marketing group" espouses. Y'see, that's where I see the strength of the crossbred angle. If your breed has a contribution to make toward that goal, however, it gets in through your stallion's listing and, as you noted, through his crossbred get.

The point is, I think, the same as other riding pony registeries: no single breed has been developed for this purpose--right? GRPs are crossbreds, as are BRPs, for a reason. Same for you, exvet. Of course your stallions would have contributions to make in producing ARPs, but they themselves are not ARPs because they weren't bred to be ARPs. ARPs come into being because they are, by definition, a goal of crossbreeding.

[pwynnnorman]

MagicRose, if you give me a page, I'll start a blog on Teddy's efforts to make the team. If I set up links to the ARP homepage (which, itself, would need to have a link to the blog) from Teddy's pages and his community webshots site (which gets over 1000 hits per week, every week, on average--sometimes as much as 5000 hits when an article comes out on him), it can be the first way we can draw traffic to the site.

Folks, if we can get over this little hump of disagreement, now may be a very good time to get this off the ground. I would love to see Teddy's successes (past or future) help us ALL, so please note that big articles are about to come out on him and on my breeding program. As I stated, every time articles come out, my hits go way up. I don't benefit much directly, though, because, frankly, my guys are not priced in encouraging ways and I simply don't have a large inventory anyway. BUT SOME OF YOU MIGHT, RIGHT????

So use the traffic Teddy can bring to this site to help yourselves! WE CAN DO THIS, people, if we are willing to play our cards right--and if we are willing to help each other.

[pwynnnorman]

And another idea...

I would recommend that we appoint a board of directors immediately and post the names and positions on the contacts page.

As I make that recommendation, please bear with me for the explanation AND please, please remember I'm not plucking this stuff out of thin air--I've taught this stuff for 17 years and the Ph.D. did NOT mean "pile it (the BSing) higher and deeper" in this case, OK?

Having a Board of Directors is often done as much for show and for function--sometimes MORE for show than for anything else. Each position can be created to send a message and/or encourage a specific market segment. For example, hluing could be brought in as "Director of European Relations" (and, note, an annotated listing of directors is more helpful than just a list: annotation means you add explanation or description to the name and position, so in this case, there'd be a little blurb about the contribution of European stock to the ARP goals--something hluing could indeed explain quite well!).

Now, the key is to eat your ego and let the most prominent names be on the board. Remember, IT'S JUST A MARKETING TOOL!!! It's not a prestige thing. So, for example, I'd be the best "Eventing Liaison," folks like Karen Fildes and (who is Treveylan Farm?) she-whose-name-I-can't-remember (sorry!!!) would make excellent "Vice Presidents" because of their valuable ties to major networks of pony breeders (Pony World and Ponies-L). Media Relations would obviously have to be someone like the Paisley Pony person whose name I also can't remember right now (OK, OK--I'm into IDEAS this morning, not names!).

See the way it goes? The result is 1.) a seemingly well-organized and thorough group of professionals and 2.) more great marketing because there's someone for everyone to contact and get information and encouragement from regardless of whether than new inquiry were interested in dressage or imported stock or rare breeds. Also, a list of directors and liaisons is a "show, don't tell" way to make it clear just how inclusive and in-depth the concept is. Granted, people who have invested a lot in the concept already kinda get "first dibs" by having their names on the board, but that's good for everyone because inquiries get answered by enthusiastic, available voices. And I'm fairly sure that most of us pass folks along to other contacts if we can't help them ourselves--plus, the site itself gives them the option of digging around for themselves as well.

A Board of Directors also encourages the development of committees. Again, committees can be mainly FOR SHOW, not for function, but they also can function. For example, if there's a "Awards and Recognition" committee, it can help collect information about successful ARPs and also be the place for media inquiries to be directed (i.e. reporters looking for background information about one pony or about a pony's recognition by the association...).

Which gets me to the last point: associating. A BOD need not be the governing group of an association, but it helps to creat one anyway. Why? Just to have a place to "put" such things as a board and committees! The key, again, is to remember that it's not REAL in the way, say, the American Cancer Society is "real." There are a ton of associations out there whose only purpose is to sell a product. These associations often "fund" studies that show how effective the product is and do other things that sound "association-like," but are actually forms of marketing: providing an "expert" or a "guest speaker" at an event (but the expert only talks about the product--or uses the product to illustrate every point made), sponsoring an award (but the award is designed to get the media to cover the product or its results), or even endorsing another product (the point is to make news for one's own product by doing so).

For example, some of us cross over into hunters. Imagine if an Ad Hoc Hunter Committee (in reality, a "subgroup" within the "association"), pooled our resources to get a trainer at HITS or one of the other winter venues to work with us on getting our ponies in the ring under the trainer's pony jock. (And, do note, the same could be done for dressage ponies, too, of course.) We get the trainer on board (through honesty--it's important that everyone actually involved understand the marketing needs we are attempting to satisfy) and promptly toss out a press release about So-and-so becoming the "official" young pony trainer of the ARP. Good for the trainer, good for the subgroup, good for the association.

OK, that's just an example. Doesn't have to happen, not by any means. But it illustrates the marketing potential (and cooperative potential) of an "association." Are you following me on this? Does it make sense to you?

[BravAddict]

Can I recommend that the formatting of the website be fixed? Nobody likes to scroll sideways.

[VirginiaBred]

I think this lady should be contacted also for some ideas:



Donna Raquet,Registrar
American Crossbred Pony Registry
152 Warbasse Junction Road
Lafayette, New Jersey 07848-4402
Email : plumtreehill@nac.net

[092556]

Hey BravAddict

The website is fine on my little 15" laptop, I don't have to scroll sideway, maybe you need to reset your display

[pintopiaffe]

First, I have to scroll sideways too. I use Mozilla.

Second, I am having a hard time wading through stuff to figure out if I/my horses/ponies can be a part of this.

Stallion is REGISTERED 1/2 Arab. Pinto pending (and has been forever, it's not a priority just now) he is in fact, 15/16ths Arab, 1/16th ASB. Has been Inspected/Approved AWS, but also RPSI. He is not approved for breeding (book I) for RPSI until we finish his scores. Does this make him not eligible? Eligible? I'm very, very confused. :uhoh:

I *do* know the CS filly can be in. :yes: Nice to see DB on the calendar page! GOoooo Cisco! :D

And P.S.--the offer still stands, VERY happy to help if I can. I have little fundage, but lots of time. :yes:

[Tiki]

I have no intention of reconfiguring my display settings for this, or any other, website. If I have to scroll, I don't visit. It's that simple - and this has NOTHING to do with content or eligibility requirements! I have a 17 inch monitor at home and I won't scroll sideways. These old eyes are getting too old to have display settings with text too small to read just so the whole thing fits on a screen.

[MagicRoseFarm]

Can I recommend that the formatting of the website be fixed? Nobody likes to scroll sideways.

I think I got it, :)

I preveiwed everything and it seems in order but I have a 17" screen on my laptop

[MagicRoseFarm]

We are starting work on the links page, if everyone would post links to organizations they would like to see on the site, THAT alone would be a great help.

The response has been so awesome, we may start a closed forum for administration of the group, in which case we can set up some committees who can work from the forum.

[MagicRoseFarm]

MagicRose, if you give me a page, I'll start a blog on Teddy's efforts to make the team. If I set up links to the ARP homepage (which, itself, would need to have a link to the blog) from Teddy's pages and his community webshots site (which gets over 1000 hits per week, every week, on average--sometimes as much as 5000 hits when an article comes out on him), it can be the first way we can draw traffic to the site.

You got it!!!

[Picasso]

And another idea...

I would recommend that we appoint a board of directors immediately and post the names and positions on the contacts page.



As I am not a breeder nor am I a BN anything (yet!), I am not at all suggesting I be thought of in this capacity, however, some of you that are influential on this thread have been helpful to me so if I can in any way return that favor, I am more than willing. I do have a business partnership with an eventing trainer (not as exciting as Wynn's, though), so if that helps out in a marketing capacity for this, let me know.

[foxcreek]

I RARELY post.... but:

MRF, I have been a big fan of your stallion and your breeding program. I was very happy for your successes at DAD. When I saw you were starting a support group for American pony breeders I cannot tell you how excited I was.

I was truly excited to be a part and help in any way I could.

The first thing I did was go check out the web site.....very cool - lots of exciting stuff! Very well done with lots of great information. And I was really excited about the possibilities.

The next thing I did was to print off the entire thread to read while I ate dinner on the couch. I never suspected what I was in for.

The more I read the more sad, disheartened, disspirited and dejected I became at the direction this whole thing has taken.

I have now finished the entire 9 pages of posts. I will not bother to waste anyone's time with rehashing what has already been well stated by others such as "Equine Reproduction" here.

I am only sad beyond words to say that although I am an AMERICAN PONY BREEDER I am not to be included in this group unless I pay money to the "accepted" registries.

I have the option to be a member of the DAR: Daughters of the American Revolution because I can trace my lineage back to soldiers that fought in that first American war. However, my heritage is Northern European as I am a mix of German, Danish and British blood. I am proud of BOTH.

Unless you are an American Indian, every person in this country and a vast majority of horses too, are IMPORTS.

I suppose I am wandering off topic. I am just so flabbergasted and disappointed - I don't even know what to say.

Considering what I've read tonight, I am curious about one thing:

Why is Popeye on your site in the stallion section? In case you didn't know: He is GERMAN!

[MagicRoseFarm]

I am only sad beyond words to say that although I am an AMERICAN PONY BREEDER I am not to be included in this group unless I pay money to the "accepted" registries.

This is not true, you do not even have to register your offspring AT ALL to promote them on this site. Some of the comments on this thread are written so as to cause that appearance. We are working on a FAQS page to help clarify this.

Why is Popeye on your site in the stallion section? In case you didn't know: He is GERMAN! [/B]

There are others on the site who are also imported. Their owners have made it possible for the offspring of these wonderful boys to be eligible to be registered with an American based association, and are advertising them on the site as such, producers of American Riding Ponies.

[Tiki]

ISR Sport Pony Division is an American Registry.

You still have to scroll to the right quite a bit to see the stallion pages.

[Albion]

I've looked at the website in Safari, Firefox, and IE - no scrolling required. If I'm going to have trouble viewing a website, it's usually with Safari or Firefox since people design for IE - but it's showing up perfectly in all 3 versions on my 13" laptop on 1280X800 viewing.

A website has to be optimized for something ... this one isn't optimized for your settings, apparently.

[Tiki]

At that resolution you must have a Mac, or comparable, short, wide screen. That resolution doesn't work on a desktop.

[MagicRoseFarm]

Noone has reported an issue with veiwing to the site email.

I am aware that the stallion page is a bit wider. Once on that page, the width allows the most information visible at once possible. I made the decision to keep the width a bit wider on that page so that, once on the page, if you scroll slightly right, the entire stallion Table is visible for down scrolling, however you lose the menu. I considered that most who view this page will spend time scrolling through the stallions, vs clicking in and out of the page. If we limit the descriptions to a smaller space, or eliminate the photos, then this page would more easily fit a normal format. I think this "formatting sacrifice" is worthwhile, but if someone has a better idea, we are open to constructive solutions.

Comments & compliments (at the site) have been VERY positive. We are hopeful that those supporting the site will continue to constructively voice their wishes.

[Albion]

I do indeed have a Mac - couldn't pay me to go back to a Windows machine, especially now that I can run XP ON my Mac. ;)

Perhaps links to the various pages on the top or bottom as opposed to the side - which eats up otherwise usable space - would be an idea.

[Centerline Farm]

Thisis a pretty funny thread. I cannot understand what is so complicated about this whole thing. Maybe I am missing the point myself!!!

It seems to me that MagicRose simply wants to support American bred animals that are promoted as such...AMERICAN. NOT riding under the name of another country in order to give their ponies more status or what have you.

German Riding Ponies (for example) are promoted as that...ponies that are German and the fact that the owners will not change their names to American proves that they are using the Eurpoean angle to promote their ponies. Most especially since as I understand, German Riding Ponies are a registry type, not a breed per se...the same as Warmbloods. Whereas Connemaras, etc. are a BREED, not a type. SO there is a vast difference between them, and reasonable that unless they change their name (and base registry) to American, they must be excluded from an American oriented organization.

If I am wrong, please enlighten me. But it makes sense to me....


However, I am a little confused about why there are Canadian ponies in there.... Contrary to popular belief, Canada is a completely separate country from the US.

[pwynnnorman]

I agree with the problem of the stallions' placement. I think it'd be more effective to put page links on top and/or bottom to make room for the stallions. I didn't even know they were there (I'm totally unaccustomed to scrolling sideways, too) until it was mentioned in this thread.

MagicRose, please don't take this wrong, but you are basing your decisions on your own suppositions here when there are far more proven sources of knowledge out there. Webmasters would shake their heads at you for trying to justify breaking a well-known, well-proven rule of web design:


From: http://www.alteredimpressions.com/Usability101/Web_Page_Width_Dilemma.htm
To design a page that looks good with most configurations, let’s start by defining our main objective: we must never force a user to scroll horizontally.

[foxcreek]

German Riding Ponies (for example) are promoted as that...ponies that are German and the fact that the owners will not change their names to American proves that they are using the Eurpoean angle to promote their ponies.

That's a pretty funny statement in itself coming from someone who advertises as:

Quality European Warmbloods


I DO NOT understand all of the animosity directed toward German Riding Ponies. Would someone enlighten me?

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=foxcreek;2976238I DO NOT understand all of the animosity directed toward German Riding Ponies. Would someone enlighten me?[/QUOTE]

I don't understand it, either. I find it very puzzling that the American Riding Pony group will accept unregistered ponies as long as they are bred in America (or Canada, apparently), but it won't take Weser-Ems or Hanoverian or RPSI registered ponies that are bred in America. If registration doesn't matter for the unregistered ponies, why should it matter for the others? Are they afraid of competition, or what? It seems like very strange reasoning.

[Tiki]

From: http://www.alteredimpressions.com/Us...th_Dilemma.htm (http://www.alteredimpressions.com/Usability101/Web_Page_Width_Dilemma.htm)
To design a page that looks good with most configurations, let’s start by defining our main objective: we must never force a user to scroll horizontally. http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2976230)
I would listen to that. Not everyone is able to have their screen resolution set so that everything appears on one screen. Some people cannot read small type, some people do not want to. I get pretty tired of people defending odd size screen definitions that require sideways scrolling just because THEY can read everything on their screen.

What you may not realize is that the great majority of people WON'T complain, or let you know, they'll just go elsewhere!!!!!

[not again]

I love the write-up on Teddy! What a great testimony to American breeding!

[butlerfamilyzoo]

There are people here that still do not get it, though its been explained very well by several others... This is NOT an attack on GERMAN riding ponies...

What magic rose is trying to do is create an AMERICAN riding pony. Same type, probably a lot of the same breeding, but the ponies allowed in CALL themselves AMERICAN.

If you had British Riding Ponies, you would be excluded... If you had Australian Riding Ponies, you would be excluded... UNLESS you choose to get approved with an AMERICAN registry and call your pony AMERICAN RIDING PONY.... THEN, you are in the group!

Is this so difficult to understand? As i said before, you cant go around saying, i breed German American Riding ponies... Or Australian American Riding Ponies... Its confusing... If you went to Germany and told them "I breed German American Riding Ponies" they would laugh you out of their country.

The big stand here is that these ponies CLAIM AMERICAN heritage... Even if they are imported breeds, from this point on, they are CLAIMING AMERICAN heritage! They are not claiming a different countries heritage even though they are bred right here in the North American continent.

As someone mentioned above, the fact that these breeders do not wish to claim American heritage proves that they want to keep the marketing angle of calling them German or Australian or British, etc... And that is fine... But this is a group that wants to claim AMERICAN heritage.

I am an avid German Riding Pony fan, BUT, i fully understand the point of this website and agree with its mission.

As for including Canadian stallions/breeders... It is my understanding that this site is NORTH AMERICA based, not just the USA.

[SweetTooth]

re-posted on H/J thread.
Regarding Pony Breeding - "honies"

[MagicRoseFarm]

The point of view we are hopeful to generate with this group is to create the long overdue image that American Breeders ARE producing incredible ponies, by association with the "tag name" American Riding Pony. Unfortunately for some wonderful breeders, we feel that the only way to do this, at this point in the evolution of American Breeding Programs, is to include American Based Associations.

The people putting their monies and efforts into these associations create for themselves a (reverse) influence ability to make demands on their organizations to support their Sportpony types. They also will produce and recieve a doubled effect for their efforts, supporting their breed registry AND supporting American bred Sport types. This will in return encourage their associations to support the "Type" .Hence, the image for American Riding Pony will improve nationally and hopefully gain the focus they deserve on the international scene, benefitting ALL American breeders..

I hope this clarifies the points and demonstrates the necessity for us to attempt this from the chosen direction. We truly feel that ALL American breeders will eventually benefit from this choice of direction.

[MagicRoseFarm]

Excellent news of great things already happening!

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=132320

[DownYonder]

I guess what it boils down to in the end is that it really looks as though you are hoping to create either an actual registry or a pseudo-registry for “American Riding Ponies.” That’s cool - it is your organization and you can do with it whatever you want, but I still don’t understand the concept that an unregistered foal from a GRP stallion and a Welsh mare is the right “type”, but a Weser-Ems registered foal from the same parents ISN'T the right “type”. Does the foal suddenly change type when he is registered with a “foreign” registry?

[MagicRoseFarm]

I guess what it boils down to in the end is that it really looks as though you are hoping to create either an actual registry or a pseudo-registry for “American Riding Ponies.” That’s cool - it is your organization and you can do with it whatever you want, but I still don’t understand the concept that an unregistered foal from a GRP stallion and a Welsh mare is the right “type”,but a Weser-Ems registered foal from the same parents ISN'T the right “type”. Does the foal suddenly change type when he is registered with a “foreign” registry?

Nope , no registry, no pseudo registry.

For the matter of clarification the German Riding Pony is NOT a registry, It is a description of a "type" whose origin is individual to each state of Germany. These states each have a pony breed organization. This organization is divided into divisions. One of which is the "Duestche Reitpony" which includes all crossbreds. There is no German Riding Pony Verband.

The American Riding Pony is here for promoting the "sportpony type" individual to North America.

[Centerline Farm]

German Riding Ponies (for example) are promoted as that...ponies that are German and the fact that the owners will not change their names to American proves that they are using the Eurpoean angle to promote their ponies.

That's a pretty funny statement in itself coming from someone who advertises as:

Quality European Warmbloods


I DO NOT understand all of the animosity directed toward German Riding Ponies. Would someone enlighten me?

Why is that funny?? I breed European Warmbloods. I am not trying to enter an American Warmblood registry.

And for the record, I have no animosity towards the German Ponies - I think they are gorgeous although I cannot see most North American kids ever riding them - too much pony. I simply stated that I understand why someone would want to exclude animals promoted as German in an American registry. That is all.

[SilverBalls]

Would my pony qualify?
http://www.bydesignfarm.com/escamade.htm

[MagicRoseFarm]

we would love to have your boy on the sales page :)

[Albion]

I get pretty tired of people defending odd size screen definitions that require sideways scrolling just because THEY can read everything on their screen. [/URL]

Hopefully this wasn't referring to me. :uhoh: I've just gotten used to web pages displaying in wonky ways since I *don't* run IE unless I really have to (and generally, looking at pages to ooh and aah over pretty babies doesn't count as a 'pressing matter' ;)), so I generally assume it's some sort of incompatibility issue with my browser(s), not a screen res problem - while many breeders' web pages display beautifully (especially the nice simple ones), a lot don't. As you say, if a page doesn't display correctly, I just click on elsewhere.

[Tiki]

No, it wasn't directed at you. I've just heard that comment too many times before - i.e. change your screen resolution. Uh uh, wrong, I'll just click elsewhere. I haven't seen a site yet that was worth it. All the good sites fit on the screen. And I'm not just talking horse sites. Any site done by a pro fits on a screen horizontal wise. It's very bad form to do otherwise.

[MagicRoseFarm]

Tiki, if you would like to donate the funds for the site to hire a pro, then PLEASE help... otherwise, we are stuck with self-taught lil' ol' me :)

Or, if you know how to help me in private rather than ridicule the site nonstop in public, I would also appreciate your help.

[Tiki]

Really, all you have to do is adjust your margins. It won't change what fits in each box, which is what you said is a problem, it will just make the boxes deeper, rather than wider. It looks like you have it set up as a 3 column table. Just grab the right margin and drag in in to the left. Then you readjust the other boxes the same way. All you have to do is resize the page. Since it's already in a table you will only have to adjust the one to the right of the description column and the one to the right of the contact column. I am not at all trying to ridicule you. This is just a suggestion to make the page easier to read. I'm also not the only one to comment on it!

[MagicRoseFarm]

Well, I do not know if it made the page easier to read, but I made the font smaller on the stallion page, the information now fits with no scrolling.

[M.K.Smith]

To try and clear this up and answer your question...her stallions are registered GRPs but approved for breeding ASPR. Registered and approved are two different things. One is papers one is "approved for breeding" by that allow it's offspring to be papered in another registry.

I have a friend that has a purebred Welsh stallion but he has ASPR breeding approval. He is then also allowed (this I don't quite grasp) to show in ASPR classes which allow both registered ASPRs and Approved for Breeding ASPRs to compete against each other.

Another example is the Hanoverian stallion (ughh forgot his name now) that is registered full Hanoverian but is 14.3h and is approved ASPR. He also has been at shows like DAD competing with all others that are either registered or Approved for Breeding ASPRs...and could be shown in the Hanoverian IBC class as well due to his heritage or registration papers.

Marie,

I don't know if you're referring to Fox Cry Nicodemus or not, but here's the data on his registration status directly from the ASPR.

"The stallion Fox Cry Nicodemus is registered and licensed with the ASPR and his foals are eligible for registration with the ASPR. The only way to qualify for ASPR awards and for ASPR sponsored shows is to be registered ASPR."

For those who don't know Fox Cry Nicodemus. Nick is also registered Welsh (Section B) as well. He was bred by my good friend, Adele Bailey, and is out of Fox Cry Raindrops on Roses & by Halcyon Sir Lancelot. Nick is in training with Elly Schobel- In 2007, he showed both on the triangle & in materiale classes. More pics of him can be seen here- http://www.westwoodwelshponies.com/id5.html You can see what type of movement he has! Nick has been very successful in both Welsh shows & USDF/USEF DSHBS in open & IBC competition. Nick certainly has the movement that sport pony registries are striving for and his 2007 foals have his movment as well.

There certainly are quite a number of Welsh ponies who have the movement that people are looking for in "sport ponies." At any Welsh show I've attended I've seen quite a few that would fit quite well into sport pony registries.... sure there are some that move like "ponies," but I'd say those are the minority. Even though I've never owned one, I've been a huge fan of Welsh Ponies for years- they're a great breed and very versatile- in the coming years, I'd love to see more Welsh competing in sport disciplines... there are many individuals that are certainly capable!

[TouchstoneAcres]

USDF has nothing to do with the rules, except for the GAIG/USDF Breeder's Championship Series. Each show can give championship ribbons however they want to.

USEF, on the other hand, makes the rules that if you have a classes limited to ponies (dressage, or h/j or western, etc,) the animals in the class MUST be pony size and can require they be measured.

I, as an organizer, am well within my rights to offer a 'pony championship' as long as I state that it will go to any animal registered with a 'pony registry'. I'm thinking just from the open in hand classes.
I can also have an IBC class for registered "X pony registry" and even if a hony is registered with that 'pony registry' he can enter the class. What I can't do is have an open class for ponies and have a hony enter it.

Marie,
Thanks for the offer to fund the championsip/reserve awards. I'm getting ready to order my ribbons (Hodges offers a 10% winter discount, so I always try to get my order in). I'll order the pony champion and reserve ribbons and then we can flesh out exactly how to word the prize list. It has to be iron-clad with no room for interpretation.

Lorik,
I will enter 2 pony sized Lipizzans if you stick to height as a requirement not a pony breed. Or include lipizzans and others like Arabians who frequently have ponies. What say you?

[ljshorses]

Marie,

I don't know if you're referring to Fox Cry Nicodemus or not, but here's the data on his registration status directly from the ASPR.

"The stallion Fox Cry Nicodemus is registered and licensed with the ASPR and his foals are eligible for registration with the ASPR. The only way to qualify for ASPR awards and for ASPR sponsored shows is to be registered ASPR."

For those who don't know Fox Cry Nicodemus. Nick is also registered Welsh (Section B) as well. He was bred by my good friend, Adele Bailey, and is out of Fox Cry Raindrops on Roses & by Halcyon Sir Lancelot. Nick is in training with Elly Schobel- In 2007, he showed both on the triangle & in materiale classes. More pics of him can be seen here- http://www.westwoodwelshponies.com/id5.html You can see what type of movement he has! Nick has been very successful in both Welsh shows & USDF/USEF DSHBS in open & IBC competition. Nick certainly has the movement that sport pony registries are striving for and his 2007 foals have his movment as well.

There certainly are quite a number of Welsh ponies who have the movement that people are looking for in "sport ponies." At any Welsh show I've attended I've seen quite a few that would fit quite well into sport pony registries.... sure there are some that move like "ponies," but I'd say those are the minority. Even though I've never owned one, I've been a huge fan of Welsh Ponies for years- they're a great breed and very versatile- in the coming years, I'd love to see more Welsh competing in sport disciplines... there are many individuals that are certainly capable!

Mary if that is true then definitely Sonja is going against her OWN rules for ASPR. The rule says they can not be registered with another registry. But they can be registered with another registry and be APPROVED for breeding PUREBRED ASPR ponies. It wouldn't surprise though if Sonja BENDS her own rules though. I myself have a registered Half Welsh Pony mare that is approved for ASPR breeding and her pony foals then are eligible for ASPR registration. I do know that the Hanoverian stallion "Ridley" is approved ASPR and is Registered Hanoverian too and yet I saw him in an ASPR class at Devon (I believe he won). Now as I said, the owner of any registry can "bend" the rules at any time so even though they are suppose to be only approved by ASPR when registered by another registry, it would not surprise if exceptions were made here and there.

[not again]

Maybe you need to check the wbfsh rules.

[MagicRoseFarm]

Mary if that is true then definitely Sonja is going against her OWN rules for ASPR. The rule says they can not be registered with another registry. But they can be registered with another registry and be APPROVED for breeding PUREBRED ASPR ponies. It wouldn't surprise though if Sonja BENDS her own rules though. I myself have a registered Half Welsh Pony mare that is approved for ASPR breeding and her pony foals then are eligible for ASPR registration. I do know that the Hanoverian stallion "Ridley" is approved ASPR and is Registered Hanoverian too and yet I saw him in an ASPR class at Devon (I believe he won). Now as I said, the owner of any registry can "bend" the rules at any time so even though they are suppose to be only approved by ASPR when registered by another registry, it would not surprise if exceptions were made here and there.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the rules for the IBC at Devon for the ASPR specify, registered OR licensed with the ASPR.This is designed to be inclusive, not exclusive for its membership's ponies. Other associations do the same, so it is no issue. I doubt the USDF or show managers wish to change it as these shows are not generally very profitable anyway.

The WBFSH rules for "one registry" apply only to member associations. Several years ago all associations within the WBFSH took a vote to activate the "one registry" rule, this is how it came about.

The Welsh Registry is NOT a WBFSH member. The AWR is a US association with a sportpony studbook in the WBFSH.

I hope this helps with your mis-understanding, and clarifies that there is no "rule- bending" involved.

[lorik]

Just so that everyone knows, as far as the IBC classes at Devon are concerned, after closing date I send the list of class entries to each registry/sponsor and ask if they are eligible. Most of the registry criteria say something like "horse must be registered and the owner must be a member in good standing". I can ask for registry papers, but I don't know about the membership of any of the organizations. When ASPR (or AHS or any other registry) says "all are ok" I let the class go.

[lorik]

Lorik,
I will enter 2 pony sized Lipizzans if you stick to height as a requirement not a pony breed. Or include lipizzans and others like Arabians who frequently have ponies. What say you?

Touchstone,

Since Lipizzans and Arabians are 'horse' registries, I really don't consider them ponies. If it were a 1/2 Lipizzan or 1/2 Arabian with a pony as the other half I could see it. Don't get me wrong. I showed Arabians too many years ago to count, and I own one that is just 14.2 (could go either way). He is a horse, because he is an Arabian.

[ljshorses]

Well that is very interesting because it clearly says in the rules on the website that in order for an American Sport Pony to be eligible for awards he must be registered with ASPR and I know that warmblood registries such as Hanoverian do not allow dual warmblood registries but do allow other warmblood approvals. Now ASPR may be allowing the Welsh and DOUBLE registering however, that is not how Sonja explained it to me which was that she wanted one registry only and that registry should only be ASPR but approval for breeding would allow you to continue with the other registry but then allow you to register offspring ASPR if you would like to. Other warmblood registries such as ISR/Old NA can't allow an approved for breeding TB mare show in their classes so why would a fully registered Hanoverian be allowed (or full blood Welsh for that matter) to show against the crossbred ASPR ponies? Very confusing, seems like it doesn't make since but then hmmm....

[hluing]

I don't think it makes any sence to anyone other than ASPR people...it certainly does not to me. But then again, I came from WB breeding...so that makes sence to me;) ASPR has always left me baffled.

[not again]

Marie, I have horses with multiple "registrations" but only one life number, issued by the birth registry. The duplicate registrations are for breeding purposes only. I would think you know how that works that since you deal with many different registries. A breeding stallion with five or six licenses will be registered with all the registries he is licensed by, but will not have duplicate registration numbers, except perhaps to add a prefix or suffix to denote his licensed status with a particular registry.

[ljshorses]

Marie, I have horses with multiple "registrations" but only one life number, issued by the birth registry. The duplicate registrations are for breeding purposes only. I would think you know how that works that since you deal with many different registries. A breeding stallion with five or six licenses will be registered with all the registries he is licensed by, but will not have duplicate registration numbers, except perhaps to add a prefix or suffix to denote his licensed status with a particular registry.

That is what I said "breeding purposes only". One lifetime registry. I think the confusion is between registry and approval for breeding.
All I am saying is that it is quite confusing when breeding approval only animals are allowed to compete against registry animals that's all. If the rules allow that for ASPR then okay, it does not allow it for many others though. That is why it can be so confusing. For example, your Hanoverian stallion is registered as a Hanoverian, but his approval for breeding is AWR. That is two different registries. Your boy should not be able to compete, in my opinion with foals registered AWR since he is only approved for breeding there. He would have to compete with registered Hanoverians like him. That doesn't mean he can't sire AWR offspring that then can compete in AWR events, but....I think that is where the problem lies because with ASPR, approval animals as well as registered animals compete against each other
Now with Welsh and Arabian and some other non warmblood breeds, you can register the half bred offspring say Half Arabian and also RPSI or whatever...in this case it is a half bred registry along with a warmblood registry so a dual registry per se....but to be a purebred registered Arabian and a fully foal book registered say RPSI hmmm that is a bit weird. I guess it could happen, but really why? To me that would not make since. The offspring is full blooded Arab not warmblood at all?

[not again]

I think Wendy and Lori stated it clearly.

[ljshorses]

I am not trying to start anything, all I am saying is it is just a bit unusual for Approved for breeding animals to be shown against registered animals. I don't know why that is wrong to say. I am sure many others wonder the same thing. I am not saying that Lori did anything wrong, as she said, she submitted the entries to the registry for approval. It was the registry that approved it then, correct? I have no problem with horses have multiple approvals, I have many. I have no problem with Half bred registered animals having other registries due to their other half blood breeding etc.. but it is just a bit weird to me that a full blooded whatever can show in both a full blooded say Hanoverian class and a say AWR class. That is all. If that is the rules so be it. I just find that to be different than how many others do it, that's all. This is my opinion and I am sorry if others disagree. It is only my take on it. If that is how an organization views things I support it since it is freedom of speech so to speak and it is their rules for their organization and I support any organization to speak their mind. I am just a bit confused on the reasons why this is different than others in wbfsh , that's all. Sorry if I offended in any way by questioning.

[MagicRoseFarm]

Marie, possibly the difference is because different associations have different rules.

I appreciate that the ASPR does not discriminate for (or against) any of their membership based on an individual animal's original pedigree, if they have met all the necessary criteria for membership otherwise, and allow equal privilege to all members.

In "sporttype" competition, the quality of each individual associated is then free to sort itself out, but all are invited.

[Hoppy2]

I agree with ljshorses, as to approved for breeding ponies in the ASPR. It does say on the ASPR that the type is to look and move like a small horse and some of these ponies going into the sportpony classes look like ponies,not small horses. So why would some people want to compete their sportponies against another pony who does not fit the description of a sportpony in looks ,only to have the pony win the sportpony class. Again this is how I see it ,or am I off in left field? or I have read too many threads lately that I'm confused to what thread I'm replying to.

[pwynnnorman]

or I have read too many threads lately that I'm confused to what thread I'm replying to.

They do all start to blur together after a while, don't they. And all are somewhat sad, IMO.

[not again]

LJS: Here's a horse example of your quandary: A friend and has a lovely KWPN registered gelding. She also has him registered with the PHR (not a member of the wbfsh), and two times won the PHR class at Dressage at Devon. All legal, no bending the rules since any rules do not apply. No different for ponies not in the wbfsh. Maybe this will give you some peace of mind.

[ljshorses]

LJS: Here's a horse example of your quandary: A friend and has a lovely KWPN registered gelding. She also has him registered with the PHR (not a member of the wbfsh), and two times won the PHR class at Dressage at Devon. All legal, no bending the rules since any rules do not apply. No different for ponies not in the wbfsh. Maybe this will give you some peace of mind.

I'm confused by your tone. I only spoke my mind (which I believe others may also share similiar thoughts on this) and yet it seems to have made you personally take it as an attack. The PHR is a Performance Horse Registry, as the title implies. It isn't American WARMBLOOD Registry or American SPORT pony. It is a registry not necessarily for breeding, it is a registry in order to compete for points (which can be a lot of fun and I think it's a great organization for that). I think that in many ways AWS is like that, not necessarily for breeding (in fact, I think it should change it's name...just another one of my opinions though), but an organization that has a wonderful awards program. My mind is perfectly at peace, I just don't agree with some things that some organizations do, but as I say over and over again, just because I don't agree, I still support the process of having an organization.

Hey some people like vanilla and some like chocolate. I don't think the people that like vanilla is hoping the end will come for chocolate, but they may be hoping that someday that they might like chocolate. But in order for them to like chocolate, maybe it has to taste just a little more like vanilla for them. If not I am sure the vanilla lovers can coexist with the chocolate lovers. How's that for an analogy (can you tell I love ice cream, lol). You really need not take offense, I just don't agree with the way it's done, most programs can use improvement.

[MagicRoseFarm]

I like vanilla and chocolate, but mostly i like hershey cherry cordial kisses :)

[ljshorses]

I like vanilla and chocolate, but mostly i like hershey cherry cordial kisses :)

Yumm, I definitely love those. The vanilla swirled ones are good too. I just got done eating a big bowl of vanilla ice cream with ...you guessed it chocolate sauce. I really got to stop talking about sweets 'cause I can't stop myself from indulging.