So I think I've been doing it all wrong-long!

[kahjul]

I rode in a small schooling show today, primarily because the judge was someone I wanted to ride with. I rode in a class that lets you pick your test, ride it, then school the issues for a block of time after.
I will not mention any names in this post.
The judge is very BNT and fairly local (less than an hour away) and when I made the transition from eventing to dressage I wondered why more people weren't using her or recommending her to me. 5 years of hard work later and being very active in the local dressage community I have learned that most everyone agrees on her ability, she just rubs alot of people the wrong way.
I have been riding with my current instructor for 1 year, she rode with a very BNT for 12 years and has alot to offer. I rode with my previous instructor for 3 years before I realized she doesn't really do well with young horses.
I have been riding my whole life, competeing at every possible discipline, but dressage is my latest endeavor.
I also clinic 6 times a year or so with BNT. I was recently told by one of them to put my 4 yo in a double. She is a draft X, has a big heavy neck and likes to drag me around. The double helped alot with the dragging me, but not much else. Part of me thought this was not the answer, but I'm not the trainer.
So today, it was, "well I'd love to help you with your test, but your horse isn't even on the bit, lets fix that" In 10 minutes, my horse was light, forward and on the bit. She made major changes in my position, and with my hands.
It was the first time anyone has gotten her light-and we were in the snaffle. I feel like it was a huge lightbulb moment. Is it just an issue of different means to the same end or WTF?? Needless to say, I will be hauling to her soon, and I'm not sure what this does with my regular trainer, etc. I just feel like an idiot and I feel like I've wastede alot of time and $ and I'm really glad I haven't gone so far as to ruin my wonderful horse!

[Sabine]

don't beat yourself up...the suggestion of putting ANY 4yr old in a double is insane. Glad you found someone that seems to be able to fix your issues...now get someone else to tape you in one of those lessons and write down every detail of what it is that she fixes with you- that seems to work...internalize the change and make it permanent. Only then will you be able to move forward and also ride by yourself and produce meaningful work.

Good luck- we've all been at spots in our riding career where we went off to a wrong direction...what matters is that we fixed it...that's all!

[flshgordon]

I agree....a 4yo in a double is beyond insane. But, other than that, perhaps your instructor just hadn't yet happened on the combination of things that worked for you & your horse?

Sometimes I can be told the same thing several times and just don't get it but if my trainer (or another) just changes the wording or has a better example...all of a sudden I get what was being said the whole time!

I'm glad you had a lightbulb moment though and hopefully you can hook up with said BNT again soon:yes:

[hundredacres]

I think it happens all the time - don't feel bad. I rode half my life and finally (luckily)stumbled upon a trainer that has changed my life. Think of the years and money spent before now to be all part of the necassary wisdom needed to get the bigger picture.

Best of luck to you!

[atr]

Lucky you to have found such a person :)!

[Trixie's mom]

A bit off-topic but I think many of us linger too long with a trainer making no or little headway in our journey. Whether it is being loyal or hoping/praying it will eventually click.

It sounds like you know your horsey stuff...your gut has been right and now you've found someone who 'fits' you...good luck and keep us posted....

I second Sabine...write it down/video it...refer to it often...

[petitefilly]

Lucky you to have found such a person :)!


My thoughts too. Aside to that, it is often telling that some instructors do not know how to teach a horse, they do know how to teach people so the rider has a double edged sword to sit on. Do they learn how to ride, or how to get the horse trained? The two things are not quite the same thing and many trainers are better at one thing.

It pays to shop around with a young horse. Many instructors do NOT know how to train young horses with issues. Things go fine till they get a horse who is out of the ordinary. Telling me your instructor stuck a double on a four year old says she hit her educational limit and now had to teach with the theory "throw the kitchen sink at the horse, I'm done". :) Yep, sad, but true.

Trainers are rare who can tackle horses and riders with the same ability. Some instructors cannot train a horse worth squat. :(

[kahjul]

I'm feeling alot better about the whole thing this morning. I told my current trainer-also BO where I board, that I would be hauling to new trainer 'for a while'. She took it somewhat better than expected. I'm excited about the new opportunity, and hopefull that yesterday wasn't a fluke moment.
Still pretty upset about all the $...and it does kinda give you trust issues when someone really popular and obviously good (short listed for CAN olympic team) gives you poor advice. I can see the point that my mare doesn't fit into the mold-but we're all so different, I didn't think that would be as big of an issue as it may be.

[slc2]

horse is dragging you around with big neck. trainer A says you put double on for a while.

your friends all tell you Trainer A is bad. you stop using the double and go to Trainer X.

now you take lessons with trainer X and everything seems great.

Trainer X looks good, trainer A looks bad.

the double went on just in time, and came off just in time, LOL.

worked out pretty well, i think. :)

[Spectrum]

This reminds me of a lesson I had a few weeks ago.

If anyone ever tells you the curb rein is the solution to a lightness problem, they probably don't really know how to use a double.

In my experience anyone who tells you to solve pretty much *anything* with a double doesn't know much about the problem.

Both the FEI trainers I rode under as a working student worked much more in snaffles (even with their FEI horses) than with doubles.

Spectrum.

[dressagedevon]

I feel ya! I recently got out of a bad trainer (stuck at training level for 8 years, had epiphany that I never learned anything in those years except how to fight with my horse), once I moved away and was on my own I fiqured all this out, now I have a wonderful trainer that can train both horse and rider, already have made strides and have had only two lessons (she has to come to me and it's 70 a lesson!) But good luck with new trainer and I hope all works out well.

[kahjul]

It's wierd that this all tied in with the rain! So now me and my girl will have had so much time off we'll be like newbies for our first lesson with the new trainer! Can't wait. She's a bit more $ than I was paying, but we all know that saying! I'll post after my lesson on Thursday and let you all know how it went.

SLC-you must have misunderstood, the trainer I was using was the one recommended to me, the one who was so helpful was the judge-who was not recommended to me.

I've kinda learned why-she is a bit difficult to get in with and has a slightly abrasive manner. But this isn't about making friends it's about learning.

[NotaDQinMD]

I'm glad you found some help! Can you elaborate more on what was done to make your horse light and on the bit? a 10 minute solution sounds a bit too good to be true, especially if it means just changing position. I'm sure there's more to it, so I'm not trying to be a smart-alec.... but I'm am also riding a huge draft cross with a similar challenge. I'm helping a friend with his training and he can go light and round for me, but when his owner rides, he pulls her everywhere. I believe in this case, I ride with more leg and seat aides and make him carry himself... it seems the minute someone gets on and takes a bit of a tight rein connection, it gives him something to lean on and he takes the bit and does what he wants. I'm curious if your feedback from the judge could be helpful to my friend.
Thanks. Trish

[speedwell]

I have the same question as NotaDQinMD. A friend of mine has a Belgian/TB cross, and the well meaning have provided her with a jointed snaffle bit with long shanks.

What were the major changes to your position and to your hands?

[kahjul]

The major change in position was to lengthen and straighten my leg. She definately had me using more calf-and less spur. She had me hold a slight inside flexion (in trot on a 20) until there was no resistance in that rein (took about 3 circles) once that was there, then sponge the outside rein until she was round and light (about 2 more circles) as soon as we were round and light, immediate release of both reins. Each time it came faster, until, at the end of 10 minutes it would come within 2 or 3 strides-even at the canter. That was as far as we got, and I'm sure there is much more depth to follow, but the results were amazing. (Sheepishly I say, well, duh?? Lots of leg, light seat, light hands creates round and soft...maybe I've read that!!) I just got sucked in to the wrong answers and I think this will work. Of course, I'll know more after a real lesson.

[slc2]

I'm not so sure you got sucked into the wrong answer, is what I was saying. If the horse was really bulling at you, the only thing to do at that point may have been to get some respect for the bridle from her. THEN you can go on and school in a lighter way.

Alot of horses go thru a period at 4 or 5 where they get very strong in the bridle, and just dropping the reins at them doesn't work with all of them. Some horses, at that age, and it sounds like you had one, they just have to learn the reins aren't for pulling on.

I've seen many people try desperately to avoid that, by making the reins longer and longer, and the horse just gets off balance. Once you're over that 'hump' though, and they start to develop some strength and fitness, it can really improve.

As unattractive as the advice sounded, and as unclassical as it sounded, it may not have been that wrong for the situation.

I've seen too, seen people not get past that. They just put a really sharp bit on the horse (or a double), and the horse gets crooked, stopped up, the contact becomes poor...the key with getting over the problem I think is not keeping that double bridle on them, but knowing when to go back and be soft with a more appropriate bridle. And normally, no, I don't think it would be a double bridle. But if you can trust the person's hands, it can be a clever way to deal with it....temporarily. You don't even have to pick up the curb rein in many cases.

Alot of times, you have to break the rules to get out of a certain problem. The trouble is it's very hard without alot of experience to know when it's a fool move and when it isn't.

The technique you describe to soften yuour horse...it was so successful...it can just as well go wrong. It can just as well wind up with the same - a horse behind the bit and crooked. There really is no difference between a temporary change in bitting and the technique yuou describe...in the sense that they can both be wrong or both be right.

[kahjul]

Thanks for that SLC. It's comments like that which will keep me from beating myself up. But now you've got me afraid of the new trainer. Remember my trust issues? I can't seem to trust my own instincts at this-much like picking out men. I seem to suck at picking out trainers.

[BumbleBee]

I'm glad you found some help! Can you elaborate more on what was done to make your horse light and on the bit? a 10 minute solution sounds a bit too good to be true, especially if it means just changing position.

In my experience that is EXACTLY what it takes.
In the proper position you can work better and in balance and as a result so can your horse. In a less correct but more "conventional" position you end up with out solid balance so have no way to help your horse balance.

I highly recomend Mary Wanless books/videos if you want to ensure you are not making these errors.

[BumbleBee]

Thanks for that SLC. It's comments like that which will keep me from beating myself up. But now you've got me afraid of the new trainer. Remember my trust issues? I can't seem to trust my own instincts at this-much like picking out men. I seem to suck at picking out trainers.

Some things work for some horses and not others. Maybe this new trainer is just a better fit for your current horse. :yes:

[slc2]

"Thanks for that SLC. It's comments like that which will keep me from beating myself up. But now you've got me afraid of the new trainer. Remember my trust issues? I can't seem to trust my own instincts at this-much like picking out men. I seem to suck at picking out trainers."

I'm not afraid of your new trainer at all. That softening work has its place, and it's a PART of a good training program. But like ANY TRAINING METHOD, you have to have a balance between it and the other qualities we want. DON'T get excited if something works quick - get excited if it works FOR A LONG TIME! DON'T evaluate a trainer based on ten minutes!

I've seen trainers that made horses SO SOFT and so COMFY to ride that the students SWOONED...but yes, even that can be overdone. The key with any trainer is balance, and that takes time to evaluate. Are the horses obedient? Are they forward? Are they straight? Do they have a good honest connection with the bit? Are THEY HAPPY? There are SO MANY qualities that make dressage...yiou can't evaluate a trainer quickly or based on 1 lesson. You want to see ALL the qualities are balanced.

And what's best for the horse at any stage of training may just not be all that comfy and soft. People want to believe that training a horse in dressage should involve no effort, discomfort or anything unpleasant and absolutely no awkward stages and everything should match what is read from a book....I wish it were that simple.

What I was adressing, though, is that we just all tend to think, 'That trainer was all wrong' and 'the trainer I have now is perfect'. It's not always so simple as it looks. It really isn't.

Mrs. Double Bridle may not have been too politically correct, but it might really have helped the horse. But if that's the only schtick Mrs. Double BRidle has, if she over emphasizes that aspect of training, making the horse give to the bridle...she hasn't got a balanced program. IF all Mrs. Soft Trainer does is get horsey soft, she ALSO has an unbalanced program.

Say, I go to a clinic. I try some new exercise and I go home thinking, 'crap! I have such a lousy trainer, he NEVER had me do that, and it worked GREAT! I will go work with Mr. Clinician! I'll sell my children and my husband to the asian slave trade to pay for it!' and say I get a couple months down the road, and I find out it's just not quite that black and white. THAT'S what I was getting at up there...mostly because you had so many responses like 'well that MRs. Double BRidle sucks! That's bad bad bad'.

We have to learn that the biggest rule in training dressage is, to some degree, 'not always'. Sure there are basics that just don't change, and there are a LOT of them.

But even IF that other trainer was totally wrong, I wanted you to know that if someone tells you, 'a double bridle is always the wrong thing', that they are ...wrong. Sure, in the usual situation, that's true. But then there is the 'not always'.

Sometimes, you can't be that ideally perfect soft in the reins. Sometimes the horse is forcefully pulling against you and you have to do something. Some horses are a lot better stretching down AFTER that ride. OThers, if you waited til the end to stretch, they'd be a mess by then. Crap, I did that last week, LOL.

Some horses, they don't do good single changes, so what do you do? You do tempe changes. You break rules. And people will have hysterics.

Some horses, you do haunches in at the canter because their back is like a board, with another horse, that will make him so crooked you will want to cry. Some horses warm up at a walk on a long rein, others at a gallop...or a piaffe.

You just can't beat yourself up. We're all learning. It just doesn't matter if we make mistakes as long as we keep trying it will work out. If your heart is in the right place it will be alright.

Remember this. The horse doesn't care. He wants you to be a good rider, but he forgives you. Always. The moment after it is over, the horse says, 'Don't even think about it. I forgive'. They know, better than any of us, where our hearts are.

You have to learn to 'train' yourself just like you train your horse. You forgive your horse, if he makes a mistake, right, you don't beat HIM up, do you? You don't get off your horse and go beat the crap out of him at the end of a ride, do you? So why do that to yourself?

don't train yourself any differently! Give yourself the same care you give your horse!


and ah...picking bad men...as long as you can get rid of them somehow eventually...well, a little adventure isn't so bad....

[Showbizz]

Most of my learning comes after making a mistake.

[BaroquePony]

Hhmmm,

I was taught for years, "not to hurt the horses mouth", "always keep it light" ... so then I got stuck with a horse that leaned on the bit (snaffle) and I had no idea what to do about it.

So, at a clinic with a very well known I judge, said Judge said, "Why are letting the horse lean on you [in my hands]?" I had a "duh" look on my face. Judge said, give the horse a real jab in the mouth with one hand and make it very clear that the hands are not a place for him to go to sleep.

I have found that it always works (rarely use it) and I found over the years that several I judges and international instructors that I have worked with have always recommended that as one of the solutions for heavy in the hand.

Making sure that you have balanced the horse properly is the first solution, of course. Sometimes easier said than done, because that means that you have to have your position correct and that IMO is the most difficult thing to achieve and the most rewarding to accomplish.

Many riders do not want to do the work to attain great position. It takes time, understanding, work and dedication. Once learned, never forgotten.

As the rider's position improves, the use of the aids improves.

[kahjul]

So I promised an update after my lesson. It was so frustrating. I felt like I had never been on a horse before. She had some wonderful insights and just loved my horse-who doesn't?? But I'm pretty depressed about it this morning. I'm going again this afternoon and hopefully something will click in my brain. Everything she said was right on as far as position issues-which are most of my horses issues. Like I can't get off my right seat bone, and she can't get off her right shoulder. Many issues with my hands and seat. What have I been paying for???? So, it's time to get out of the past and move on. Sounds easy, huh?

[Velvet]

A LOT of people go down the wrong road for a long time, before finally recognizing that they need to make a U-turn. Don't feel like you're alone. Heck, instead you should feel sorry for those who are still blindly going down the wrong road and don't know it yet! ;)

[kahjul]

Today was much better. Trainer rode my girl and found that she isn't as easy as she looks. Funny, thats what everyone says. I don't find her difficult, but she's all I'm currently riding. She is incredibly blocked on the right side was the consensus and she gave me some excersises for that. We'll see.

[hundredacres]

Try not to look back now. You are going forward - a year from now you will be so proud of yourself and your mare.

Good luck :)

[Dreams Do Come True]

Yes, I think we benefit from changing trainers now and then, but don't burn any bridges. Some have an ego that will get in the way and others are true professionals. I also agree a double bridle on a four year old is a bit much, but, used properly, it may have been enough for your youngster to respect the bridle, so the timing was perfect in conjuction with lengthening your leg and a balanced horse and rider. I say continue with your gut feeling to do the right thing for you and your horse. Keep us posted on your progress so others can learn from you and reconfirm the experience for others.
Dreams Do Come True