Sale horses and x-rays

[Cindy's Warmbloods]

Just wondering how many people x-ray their horses prior to selling them? Is it a huge incentive to buyers if it is already done? Or have you not noticed much difference as the buyers would prefer to have their own done? Or do most of you leave it at the buyers descretion incase they chose not to get them done? The reason I ask is I have a 3yr old starting undersaddle and would like to advertise her as a riding horse. Just wondering if it would be hugely beneficial to have her x-rays done when advertising or just leave it to the buyer? Would love some opinions.

[ahf]

I hate surprises. I get mine digitally radiographed before they are backed as late 2yos. It's a cost of doing business, and allows me to speak honestly and without hesitation to a prospective buyer.

[dorthyinoz]

Wow I just had this convo with my barn manager. She told me not to do it incase we found something. Her reasoning is no one would think we took them "just for interest". Her thinking was that people would presume we took them due to lameness or something of that sort. I still want to get mine done just to have for myself, and if a potential buyer wants to see them thats fine aswell.

[Rubs Not Pats]

Most of mine are done too before starting. They are also radiographed at the first sign of anything wrong. I have found this eliminates suprises but in sending them out to the radiologist, gives the buyers vet and the buyer a little more piece of mind in calling something a normal variation. I have had way too many GP doc's make stuff up because they don't know better because they don't see enough of whatever normal variant we are talking about. From there, let the pre purchase doc fight it out with the radiologist. Voice of experience, GP will 99% agree with the radiologist. I won't give them the report until after the flexions are complete.

[Hillside H Ranch]

Any horse that I still own by the age of 2 has radiographs done (fetlocks, stifles and hocks). I will offer them to potential buyers, but I make it clear that they are more than welcome to have their own done. I don't like to be suprised, either, as someone else stated.

[Rendaivu]

I like to have them just so that I am sure of what I am selling and there are no surprises. I hate surprises except for presents from the hubby, those are always nice :yes:

[3Spots]

What if you are the buyer and have a coming 2 year old -- would you xray everything just to have a complete record?

[ShowjumpersUSA]

Wow I just had this convo with my barn manager. She told me not to do it incase we found something. Her reasoning is no one would think we took them "just for interest". Her thinking was that people would presume we took them due to lameness or something of that sort. I still want to get mine done just to have for myself, and if a potential buyer wants to see them thats fine aswell.

Curious... Don't take the x-rays because:

1. "In case we found something" hmmmmm.....

2. "People would presume we took them due to lameness..."

I don't think I'd pay too much attention to the barn manager when it comes to business ethics.

[STF]

Can I ask what everyone is paying for Xrays these days?? Our clinic has the new digitals now and they are awesome!

[ShowjumpersUSA]

Cindy, x-rays are expensive and buyers usually like to have their own vet do that sort of thing. I wouldn't spend the money to do it unless you are going to put a lot of time/money into training before you advertise her for sale. You wouldn't want to put a lot of time and money into a horse you can't sell.

[Peg]

I also feel that digital pics are the best at age 2, prior to starting. I would encourage a prospective buyer to get their own, for several reasons, not the least of which is buyer confidance. If there are problems with the first radiographs, some idea of that horse's abilities may be. Besides, I can't feel comfortable selling a horse that a client is not happy with. Peg

[aiken4horses]

Most buyers will want their own vet to take x-rays if they desire them and most vets prefer to take their own pictures.
If I'm buying a horse specifically for re-sale I have x-rays taken during my PPE.

On the other side of the fence, it's always nice if the seller has previous x-rays to compare to (if they allow).

I have seen horses advertised with "recent vetting and x-rays". Make sure you ASK what was x-rayed. I've known buyers who just assumed the pictures were of hocks, feet, etc. Could have been of the tail for all they knew!

[Fairview Horse Center]

I have not xrayed any horse unless it has had some type of problem, as each buyer has wanted different views.

What you you guys xraying?

4 feet?
4 fetlocks?
knees?
hocks?
stifles?
spine/neck?
all views of each?

[Rival]

As a buyer, yes x rays would be nice. OCD should be present by 18 months so clean x rays after 2 are nice. Having gone horse shopping with friends lately I must say there is nothing worse than having several horses in a row fail vet checks (not cheap!). Unless they are current people will probably redo them anyways but I think it is a definate bonus to have ruled out some issues before making the leap. The price range of the horse would definately play a factor though.

[DressageOPhobia]

I would always xray any baby or horse that I am putting training money into. That way you know that you are investing training money in a saleable horse. It is good business.
Xray the horse. Any trainer that tells you not to would not be MY trainer.

[alexandra]

I would always xray any baby or horse that I am putting training money into. That way you know that you are investing training money in a saleable horse. It is good business.
Xray the horse. Any trainer that tells you not to would not be MY trainer.

I would never allow any buyer to have foals x-rayed. First of all these x-rays do not show anything. There have been various research studies over here that found that the x-rays in not yet grown up horses can vary to an extend you won't believe. meaning they can look completely different 3 months later.
To x-ray a foal means to tranq it and I would not want to have that done either. Also to get the foal to a clinic is an additional stress and risk I would never look into if I want to sell it. and I would also not want that as a buyer. If something happens on that way no one refunds me. If a buyer does not feel confident with that. O.k. than we move on. I am not selling my foals in price ranges that are outragious, so I always find buyers, because the foals are of quite good quality.

As a buyer I also would not x-ray a foal. Money that is spend there is thrown out in my eyes. I better rather spend it on having a good clinical exam done with good examination of heart, lungs eyes and such. I also would never allow flexion tests on any of my foals or under 2yo.

Coming back to the original poster. If I would have a riding horse for sale I would do a 12 picture basic x-ray set. I'd try to get them done with a digital maschine to be able to send them along to other vets for examination. With doing this I know what to expect and I also know if it is worth to invest in training or not.

Friend of mine has a very nice Lauries Crusador mare he wants to put up for sale. She has not done a lot looking at shows. She was pretty cheap when he bought her, but she does not suit his purpose so he wants to sell. He wants to go out hnting and she is a pretty tought cookie, that really like to galopp fast in a herd and her jumping is, well as expected from the breeding to put it nicely. She has improved a lot in the year that she has been in partial training. So he took x-rays to find out wht is going on, she was cheap when he bought her so he did not take some. She has xrays class 1-2 due to a change in a bone in the front leg where they can break something which one could take out (no idea on english word for that), but all relevant bones are very clean. So yes he will put her into training and won't ride her himself anymore, so that she will get some second level dressage placings and will raise much more money than selling her now with her better "riding status". The mare has pretty nice movement so I bet he may be able to get at least double from what he paid and substracting the training he will even make a profit.
So yes x-rays from sellers point of view make sense and from buyers point, They are a nice to have in advance.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I would certainly not use xrays to decide whether to put a horse into training or not. The world is filled with horses that x-ray poorly, but have stayed sound thru a long, demanding career. There is even discussion amoung vets of why do them at all to predict future soundness, as many don't feel that they do.

[siegi b.]

I'm with ahf and a few others on here... I get digital x-rays on all of my 2-year olds BEFORE I get ready to back and then sell them. Surprises during the PPE are the last thing I want to see, and as much as the new owners may still want some additional images, it allows me to go into price negotiations feeling comfortable that I'm selling a sound animal. I get front ankles, hocks and stifles done, and since I see the horses every day I know that they're healthy and even movers.

Due to circumstances I sold a 2-year old late last year without having any x-rays on her, so I told the client that I would split the PPE bill with her. The horse vetted out fine and the client was happy that I was willing to take 50% of the risk in case she didn't.

What it boils down to is that I want to sell healthy and sound horses and I want to know that they are BEFORE somebody asks me about them.

P. S.: Darlyn, I just read your post... Try to sell a 30K youngster with bad x-rays - it really doesn't matter how some vets feel about x-rays having or not having anything to do with future soundness.

[Reiter]

She has xrays class 1-2 due to a change in a bone in the front leg where they can break something which one could take out (no idea on english word for that), but all relevant bones are very clean.

Splint bone?

[Fairview Horse Center]

P. S.: Darlyn, I just read your post... Try to sell a 30K youngster with bad x-rays - it really doesn't matter how some vets feel about x-rays having or not having anything to do with future soundness.

Oh, I TOTALLY agree, but bad x-rays on an otherwise sound horse would not keep me from investing in training as another poster said. On the contrary, I would feel the need to PROVE the soundness before offering for sale. Many proven show horses do sell with bad x-rays. If you can show they have had the same bones for several years of work and showing with no changes, it is easier for someone to have the confidence in them, although you may have to be negotiable on the price.

[daisyduke]

In my opinion, if x-rays are completed beforehand, that might speed up a sale transaction. However, I also agree that most potential buyers would choose to use their own vet. Also, as I have been advised, the buyer pays for x-rays if they have not already been completed. I guess, if you do not want any surprises, you could go ahead and have the x-rays conducted, however, if it were me, I would wait for a prospective buyer to choose to x-ray and they would bear the cost. I was considering purchasing a horse who had x-rays done in March of 2007. I still chose to have x-rays repeated by my own vet. So the x-rays conducted earlier in the year, paid by the owner, were not taken into consideration by me.

[columbus]

I have been in the midst of an xray adventure this last year. I have a very fun 4 yo gelding who was ready to show. He had a number of potential buyers and when he got to the vetting they were not even going to xray him as they knew the history of the colt, knew the trainer, trusted we were honest with the history and he was a great fit for a competitive teenager. On the day of the vetting he didn't pass a flexion in spite of being working sound. We were all surprised. He was reghularly out in a pasture of young geldings who played all the time, he was not wrapped in cotton. Since then he has passed flexions with no trouble but on that day he was off.
I xrayed and he was positive...an inconsequential lesion on the hock in question but a flap on the other hock that may someday cause a problem...then again it may not. The potential buyers found another horse and the xrays have stopped a number of very enthusiastic potential buyers. He would have been entirely suitable for nearly all of them. So he is still on the market and I am in a position to offer him to a underhorsed competitive junior rider who is having a ball with him doing all the things the prospective buyers wanted...but I am paying board...he is sound and has remained so...he has moved up to working on 1st level to show this season. He has cliniced with Hokan Thorn...but I still own him. Honestly he is fun to watch, he is happy as a horse can be, he is progressing and perhaps someday he will find his buyer. Until then he and his junior are galloping around the snow covered field bareback...great guy.
Now I need to sell horses to breed horses so I have put my foundation mare on the market but I xrayed her first and fortunately she is clean. If she weren't she would have stayed in training but I would have been wondering what I did to desrve such a fate.
In this process I have learned that neither vets or buyers(or their trainers) or sellers have any idea what these positive xrays on sound horses really mean. The vets don't want to commit to a yeah or a nay on a horse with positive xrays, they just say the lesion is there. I had a friend go through a sale process with one horse and two buyers and each had a different vet. The first buyer's found two issues. They stopped the sale. The second buyer's vet found two DIFFERENT potential problems...same horse...within three days of each other. That buyer went ahead with the sale.
These vettings are not scientific processes. The xrays are so clear now days they all see things in detail we never saw before. The truth is we have been riding these horses for many years without knowing they had lesions and flaps and chips and the majority stayed sound through long working lives. The only horses we xrayed were lame horses and then we might guess...yup, that could be the problem. It is a different world and people are paying for perfection not training...perfectly trained isn't as important as pefectly clean xrays. So I proceed with my gelding and use him like the old days and see if he ever has a problem. I will xray him every spring to see if there is deterioration and keep having fun with him. PatO

[columbus]

During the process of having a positive xray we have to deal with its consequence...do we remove the flaps, chips, or lesions if the horse is sound but needs to be sold?

Does removing the lesions solve the problem for buyers or have you a new problem for buyers...Have they the courage to buy a horse who has had SURGERY to remove the lesions?

The vets have said the surgery would have no potential for damage...remove the lesions and you're good as new. I operate under the idea of "do no harm" I have a sound horse. Do I risk infection or injury in layup or any other surgical complication when I have a sound horse?

I have a complete guarantee on my horse and would pay for surgery if it was ever necessary...this of course makes people more suspicious. I am lucky I can afford to keep him but I can't afford to keep him and keep breeding in any glorious way...breed one...sell one. 'Tis a puzzle wrapped in a delema surrounded by a conundrum. PatO

[L&L]

Freinds of ours have three horses, one mare fractured her splint bone when she was five, which since repaired without consequence. She has failed three pre-purchase vettings on the basis of the x-ray results. The mare has since gone on over the last eight years and competed CSI**** with too many wins to list and is now 13 with a succesful international career and continues to go on as a speed horse at 1.50 and 1.60 classes. The other two have an ocd lesion that is not worthy of operating, these horses will never pass pre purchase examination x-rays yet they too are competing at CSI *** and **** at the age of 8 and 10 with oddles of scope left to continue in competition. Thankfully the owner does not need to sell the horses and can enjoy their success.
As time passes I'm becoming more and more sceptical of x-ray results and other than discovering serious navicular changes and degenerative joint disease I feel too many buyers are put off by vets projective diagnosis of x-rays that do not read 100% and as a result too many good horses are being rejected because of it, when they are fit healthy and sound. Understandably when the horses are being sold at $150000 plus buyers are hesitant but sometimes common sense should come into play and buyers should remain more open minded especially when leading orthpeadic vets will often advise that even level 3 x-ray horses can remain sound until the end of their days and the whole picture should be taken into consideration.

[siegi b.]

There are a couple of ways I address the issues.....

First, I have all the x-rays taken at a teaching hospital where they have the best equipment. Second, I have them read by experts, folks that have looked at literally thousands of them, so I feel pretty confident in the findings.

And yes, I have had a little chip in a front ankle removed on the adivce of a very prominent veterinarian, after he told me that the chip would likely never bother the horse. The reason? It would always show up on an x-ray and I'd be forever answering questions.

So, while I agree with the poster that talked about today's digital technology letting us see many more things than before, I also think that it leaves a lot less up to interpretation.

Again, I like x-rays BEFORE I sell my 2 or 3-year olds because I like to know what I'm talking about, it gives the client something they can send to their vet before they take any additional radiographs, and it also provides a baseline for any future developments.

Just my 2 cents worth...

[Tiki]

Unfortunately, people in this country want perfection. Even with a teaching hospital doing the x-rays and interpretation, they have to 'disclose' that there is a chip - even if it will never move because it is very small and well embedded in tissue. Buyers hear 'chip' and run screaming from the room. With digital x-rays, they are finding 'chips' that are smaller than a grain of rice. The buyer says, "I don't see it Doc". So the Doc enlarges it on the screen and then they STILL run screaming from the room saying, "I couldn't buy a horse with a chip the size of a dinner plate". :lol::no::confused:;):winkgrin::mad::o:D:eek:

[Fairview Horse Center]

Unfortunately, people in this country want perfection. Even with a teaching hospital doing the x-rays and interpretation, they have to 'disclose' that there is a chip - even if it will never move because it is very small and well embedded in tissue. Buyers hear 'chip' and run screaming from the room. With digital x-rays, they are finding 'chips' that are smaller than a grain of rice. The buyer says, "I don't see it Doc". So the Doc enlarges it on the screen and then they STILL run screaming from the room saying, "I couldn't buy a horse with a chip the size of a dinner plate". :lol::no::confused:;):winkgrin::mad::o:D:eek:

This is just so scary. And WHY are we still breeding? :cry:

[2foals]

Personally, I do screening xrays on all of my youngsters in the fall of their yearling year. If a chip or something shows up, I have it removed and take a follow up set of x-rays later. I am aware that some of these surgeries may be essentially cosmetic. I am very lucky to have access to two world class equine hospitals right nearby that do hundreds of these surgeries each year, so I feel that the risk is acceptably low. If I did not have access to these vets and facilities, I'm not sure I would go this route. Really, it boils down to the fact that the climate here is that people want perfect x-rays--they feel like it is some kind of guarantee that they are getting a "perfect" horse. Even buyers who don't feel that way have to consider that they may someday want to re-sell the horse and worry that they would have trouble doing so.

Anyway, I don't have a huge sale barn, so I feel like it helps to encourage buyers to have confidence to look at my horses if I have a set of clean x-rays for the horse. Obviously prospective buyers are willing to do whatever they want in terms of additional x-rays.

[graystonefarm]

Actually, that's the first question a buyer asks me ... "does the horse have current x-rays." I think it would definitely be a plus.

[Tiki]

Personally, I do screening xrays on all of my youngsters in the fall of their yearling year. If a chip or something shows up, I have it removed and take a follow up set of x-rays later. There's a lot of evidence that 'chips' in horses this young disappear on their own anyway, at least in WB's. Surgery in a yearling that is not lame is in my mind unnecessary surgery. I wouldn't even bother looking until 2 1/2 - 3. If you have seen a 'chip' in a non-lame horse at 1 year of age, it is probably gone by then.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I have actually never been asked if a sale horse has been x-rayed. I have been asked if a horse has ever failed a vetting.

At the prepurchase, each buyer chooses different parts to xray, and the most common part x-rayed (feet), and more angles than the other areas, no one here has said they usually do. That surprises me.

[siegi b.]

Darlyn - my mistake.... I actually do have images of the front feet taken. Gotta have those "naviculars".... :-)

[Fairview Horse Center]

Feet can also have small coffin bone fractures. In fact, I was told they are quite common, although almost never a problem. When feet x-rays were done on my youngsters, they also measured sole depth.

[2foals]

Tiki, I do my screening xrays at this time based on advice from vets at both Rood and Riddle and Hagyard Davidson McGee. Their opinion is that if you do have to have an OCD removed, healing is quicker and better at this time.

But, you are absolutely right that some lesions will disappear on their own. Fortunately, the vets around here look at so many yearling xrays and have so much experience with this stuff (every yearling going through the TB sales here gets a full set of xrays) they also have the experience to say when a lesion will most likely disappear on its own. I had a horse with a small stifle OCD at 18 mos, vet said to leave it, that it would go away and six months later that stifle is pristine on xrays (horse never had any symptoms). As I understand it, chips and larger OCDs are unlikely to go away with time.

[Tiki]

With experienced vets, that plan probably works very well for you. I do absolutely cringe, however, when I hear about people having surgery done on weanlings or yearlings that have never shown any evidence of lameness. Many times that is absolutely unnecessary.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I do absolutely cringe, however, when I hear about people having surgery done on weanlings or yearlings that have never shown any evidence of lameness. Many times that is absolutely unnecessary.

I totally agree.

I heard a vet talking about a horse that she vetted that she found out later had a chip removed as a youngster from his hock. She was very upset that it was not disclosed prior to purchase. The horse was purchased from a very reputable breeder. That horse has since trained in Europe, and passed thru several owners and trainers. I believe he is doing 4th + with no sign of lameness, but that vet would have not recommended the purchase if she had known.

The only other horse I knew that had chips removed was from his fetlock and later his stifle. He went on to have a nice career in Intermediate eventing before being sold with a MAJOR pre-purchase that he passed. He is still 100% sound, and competing.

The youngster I had with a fracture from a pasture injury as a weanling healed fine with stall rest, but I cut his price in half. On his vetting, the x-rays were so clean that the vet requested to see the original rads to make sure he had taken his in the right place.

Those of you that have removed chips, are they disclosed, and if so, do you think that stops sales, or lowers the price?

[Tiki]

Well, my now 7yo, who made Premium Mare last year and will doing her MPT this year, had a fractured elbow as a 10 month old. She is not for sale, so I don't have to disclose it to anyone anyway, but I dare anyone to tell me which mare it is if you come out and look at them all!!!!! Even the one that broke her leg is hard to pick out nowadays, but I'm sure many of the good breeders could. But you'd have to look real hard.

I know someone who had chips removed from a few horses. You could never tell they'd had a problem - except for the one that developed a serous leakage on healing and his hock filled. He had chips sooooooooooo deeply embedded it was hard to find on surgery. Several vets said they'd never move, never cause a problem, would absolutely NOT recommend surgery. No one would buy him. Oy vey, the complications from the surgery for a sound horse!!!! The hock is slowly coming down now that he's back in training. He was a little stiff for a while when he restarted. And this for a horse that was never lame, had the chips so tight in tissue, not near a joint. Too many people don't know what they're looking at. A European would have bought him in a heartbeat and who knows how far he could have gone without the damaging surgery?

In this country the easiest way to get out of a sale is to say, "I thought I saw a shadow on his x-ray. I know the vet said it is probably not going to be a problem, buuuuuutttttttttt............." The only thing wrong with the horse many times is in the buyer's mind. If they don't want it, I wish they'd just say so.

[Cindy's Warmbloods]

Lost my last post so lets try this again.
I am wondering the same thing as Darlyn. If you have had a chip removed and the horse now x-rays "clean" are you disclosing you had the chip removed? Or just selling on the fact the horse now has clean x-rays? If you are disclosing it how much is it (if any) affecting value? Do people care if it had a chip removed if x-rays are now clean and the horse is going sound. Would like to hear more on this. Also what would a surgery cost? I have never had a horse with OCD so don't know a lot about chip removal and such. Is it a fairly simple procedure or quite invasive or does that depend on where it is?

[Tiki]

It's generally arthroscopic surgery. I haven't had it done, but I know people who have. It's usually around $1100 - $1500. Requires about 6 weeks down time. Virtually impossible to find a scar - unless there were problems with the surgery or recovery (like infection). It's a teeny incision, but it's usually in the leg somewhere and horses lie in sh!t.

[Fairview Horse Center]

So does the fact that a youngster had a chip removed show up on any future x-ray? Or does that depend? If it does not show up, is the joint pristine, and ethical to not disclose? (Will this answer be different depending on buyer or seller?) :D

This may be a good poll to put in a riding forum, or Off Course.

[Hillside H Ranch]

So does the fact that a youngster had a chip removed show up on any future x-ray? Or does that depend? If it does not show up, is the joint pristine, and ethical to not disclose? (Will this answer be different depending on buyer or seller?) :D

This may be a good poll to put in a riding forum, or Off Course.


Depends upon where the chip is, how large, etc. But you can't always tell that a chip was removed. I can't give you statistic, I'm not sure they are even out there, but I have seen client x-rays of before and after and you would never know there had been anything removed. I can also think of one case where I know that a horse had a chip removed (in this case, from a fetlock) and had a PPE done at a later date. Those rads were sent to a radiologist at a BIG name clinic and declared clean. I think if you can't see it on x-ray, and there isn't anything there to cause a problem and the horse is clinically sound then most sellers aren't going to say anything to you. I mean, technically, there is no problem to disclose!
If you were a breeder looking at breeding stock you would probably want to know, although with all the possible causes of OCD maybe it wouldn't even matter then? I guess if you are concerned you have to specifically ask,"has this horse ever had surgery to remove a chip or cyst"? Just like you ask other pre-sale, specific questions (vices, etc).

[Clear Blue]

I totally agree.


Those of you that have removed chips, are they disclosed, and if so, do you think that stops sales, or lowers the price?


I always disclose if a young horse had surgery. I will also disclose if a horse has been declined on a PPE before - and why. If I think it will limit the horse's ability, I put a less expensive price tag on it. If I don't think it will limit the horse's ability, I stand firm on my price. Yes I may hold onto the horse a little longer - but that is my choice.

If everyone disclosed all the things that happened to their horses - the buyers would become more accustomed to the fact that horses are living creatures that periodically experience little road bumps along the way. If I remember correctly, even the great Rox Dene had some minor issues with OCD as a youngster.

[camohn]

I have been in the midst of an xray adventure this last year. I have a very fun 4 yo gelding who was ready to show. He had a number of potential buyers and when he got to the vetting they were not even going to xray him as they knew the history of the colt, knew the trainer, trusted we were honest with the history and he was a great fit for a competitive teenager. On the day of the vetting he didn't pass a flexion in spite of being working sound. We were all surprised. He was reghularly out in a pasture of young geldings who played all the time, he was not wrapped in cotton. Since then he has passed flexions with no trouble but on that day he was off.
I xrayed and he was positive...an inconsequential lesion on the hock in question but a flap on the other hock that may someday cause a problem...then again it may not.


This sounds like a carbon copy of my recent experience! Young horse was never injured, is moving sound in light work here, trotted sound for the vet pre flexion at the PPE and only tested a slight positive on the hock flexion. On xray we were surprised when up shows a hock flap lesion. That buyer did run for the hills. I had several other folks that were interested in the horse prior to this sale-pending-the-vetting. I emailed them that the horse was still available and why if they were still interested. 2 called back that yup...if he is moving sound they are still interested. They are amazed I volunteered that information. I told them it saves all of us a lot of hassle if it is not something they are willing to consider and the horse un necessary vetting. Since most of our foals sell as babies I don't really have xrays done very often.

[DressageOPhobia]

2Foals you are right on in your process. I do as well xray in the yearling year. I learned the hard way (attention all you who mock xraying youngsters.)

I raised a gelding from a weanling and at three years old he failed a prepurchase exam and I was shocked when they found a large OCD lesion on the stifle. A career ender, and I had already put large amounts out for training, boarding and raising the youngster. I had never xrayed him. Bad decision.

Bottom line is this, most buyers when purchasing a horse over ___ thousand dollars want xrays. After the xray they ask for the vets opinion. The vet will say NEIGH on the horse if there is any sign of anything. The buyer relys on what the vet says and the vet is regulated by mal practice. They will always err on the side of being conservative,,,,in other words if there is anything there the vet will say NEIGH to the horse for the prospective buyer.

If you are running your horse business like a business,,,you will xray before you invest $$$$$$$$$$$$$

[Tiki]

Why on earth was that a career ender? If he was in training for how long? and he was sound and going well - just have the chip removed. If he's sound in work, why on earth would that be a career ender???????

[siegi b.]

I've had one chip removed in a fetlock that wouldn't have bothered the horse ever according to the head surgeon at my equine teaching hospital. The chip was discovered when I had radiographs taken for my own benefit.

When I sold the horse I was very upfront with this and even gave the client a DVD with the images. When she had the horse vetted out everybody was very happy because there was no sign of anything and the horse was perfectly ok.

If you want to stay in this business you have to disclose surgeries that were done to a horse you have for sale.

[Peg]

A very seasoned vet told me recently that any horse can be MADE to fail flextion tests. This was after a horse that had bought from her failed the hoof flexion portion. Others vets questioned after that stated that it was true. How can one base a vetting upon one vet's call? It gets expensive to have 2 exams and films done for a lower level horse. IPeg

[Fairview Horse Center]

Flexions are very vet dependent, and can easily be over done. We have seen the AAEP discussing the lack of reliability of both flexions, and x-rays in predicting future soundness, but buyers spending a lot of money want some type of "guarantee". Vets are protecting themselves in this world where no one wants to accept any risk.

Regular practice vets are usually dealing with issues of "positive" lameness from an issue, so they see thru those tinted glasses. In my experience, it is MUCH better to deal with a vet/university that does a LOT of pre-purchase exams. They are much more likely to see that no horse is perfect, and are more comfortable with their own experience of what is not likely to cause a problem.

One interesting exam the vet did not do any flexions, but worked on checking acupuncture points, to evaluate body pain. Interesting.

[gortmore]

I don't x-ray my young horses. My vet actually told me that I could probably tell as well as he can whether a horse is sound or not. Now if I was going out today to buy a horse that was going undersaddle I would ultrasound tendons and ligaments as that is the area that I have heard of more problems with. I know horses that have had multiple small tears that had healed, the horse had never been unsound until the final tear that was a big one. I don't buy into flexions either. We had a horse here in training who had terrible x-rays on his knees and vetted 100% and had been in hard work. I know another horse who had 'perfect' x-rays and would not flex. If the horse has been in work and is sound I put more weight on that then anything else. The other thing I have found is that the people buying the more expensive horses don't expect the perfect vetting but those buying horses that are less expensive do want perfect vettings. By expensive I mean $ 50 K and up. Less expensive being $ 30 K and under. This makes it hard for breeders as most young horses are in the under $ 30 K range and have not been in work long enough to be considered sound.

[camohn]

I don't x-ray my young horses. My vet actually told me that I could probably tell as well as he can whether a horse is sound or not. Now if I was going out today to buy a horse that was going undersaddle I would ultrasound tendons and ligaments as that is the area that I have heard of more problems with. I know horses that have had multiple small tears that had healed, the horse had never been unsound until the final tear that was a big one. I don't buy into flexions either. We had a horse here in training who had terrible x-rays on his knees and vetted 100% and had been in hard work. I know another horse who had 'perfect' x-rays and would not flex. If the horse has been in work and is sound I put more weight on that then anything else. The other thing I have found is that the people buying the more expensive horses don't expect the perfect vetting but those buying horses that are less expensive do want perfect vettings. By expensive I mean $ 50 K and up. Less expensive being $ 30 K and under. This makes it hard for breeders as most young horses are in the under $ 30 K range and have not been in work long enough to be considered sound.

Certainly none of my horse have sold for over 30K, but it is still true. Folks buying the more expensive horses have been more fogiving of "small stuff" than folks buying the less expensive horses. I never did figure it out! I guess folks buying pricey horses are just more experienced/comfortable with what little flaws they are willing to take than the generally less experienced owner shopping in a lower price range.

[Clear Blue]

Typically a horse that sells for over 50K has already started some kind of performance career (at least in the US). Once the horse has shown the talent and ability to stay sound in competition - the findings on an intial (young) horse PPE become less concerning.

This is the tough part for breeders. The PPE carries more weight on most of the horses we want to sell (young and uproven). Unfortunately it can depend on the care and training a horse receives whether a radiographic question turns into a lameness problem or not.

[not again]

Family history plays a big part too. If parents and grandparents worked hard and stayed sound for a long time, then buyers are more will to take a risk on not quite perfect x-rays. As an aside, those looking for many perfect x-rays on a less expensive horse are often looking for a quick resale.

[ljshorses]

This is a very interesting and timely thread. I had a very, very strange thing happen and would love others opinions here please. First, I must say that I have had my feed program seriously analyzed by two equine nutritionists and a lameness vet that does many pre-purchase exams on warmblood youngsters. We carefuly balance vit, minerals, fat, protein etc.. etc... Next, not one of my mares has had ocd. thirdly, I have never had a horse sold here that was x-rayed (until now) show any ocd issues. Also, we believe in 24/7 turnout and they are only brought in to feed and/or work etc.. So here goes my weird scenario, sorry it is so long.

I had a very, very fast growing colt this year. He never showed lameness or swelling anywhere. The purchaser had a pre-purchase exam done and she wasn't present (she lived very far away). I was not told what exactly she ordered but did what the vet said which was walk and trot on two different surfaces, towards and away from vet. Have him at liberty in our large ring. And all joints were palped. Heart, lungs and eyes were also checked. No x-rays and I was surprised and even asked if the vet was sure. She said the purchaser made it clear it would be left to the vet's discretion and she the vet, felt there was absolutely no need. This vet has done many, pre-purchase exams for many big name breeders...so I said okay. I spoke to the purchaser following the exam. She also said she was surprised that x-rays weren't taken, but said to go ahead and deposit the check. She also said she wanted to keep him here for 60 days before she could bring him home. Well, I agreed to keep him here free the 60 days and heard nothing from her until about day 65. I had emailed her to see if she had scheduled the shipping. She said it was scheduled and he would be leaving in just a couple weeks but she didn't have the exact day yet?? Then, I get a call from my vet who said that the buyer had called their office (I had given the buyer the number so she could get his vaccination records) and scheduled with them to come out and do digitals of the colt's hocks! I was surprised but figured, hey he's her horse and maybe she just wants a baseline before shipping him or maybe her insurance company required it. Okay, now here comes the bad part, he's got ocd of the hocks. The vet wasn't at all concerned and said it would be easy surgery and in fact, he wouldn't even recommend doing it and just wait and re-x-ray when he was old enough to go under saddle.

Okay, you probably guessed the result...the buyer now wants her money back. I said that the contract had been completed 2 months ago and he passed his pre-purchase exam. She went batty on me and I felt bad so I offered to pay for the surgery. I told her she could keep the money in a savings count and if it isn't present in a couple years then she gets the money and the interest for 2+ years! If it is still there then she has the money for the surgery. She says NO and that she was going to black ball me as a breeder and I would be ruined! I really wanted to just give her the money back just so she'd be happy, keep the colt until he was old enough to start under saddle and the x-ray before beginning his training. Since my husband is an attorney, he says no, a deal is a deal. We did nothing wrong. She chose the vet for the pre-purchase and she was okay with the exam or she wouldn't of told us to deposit the check, Also, he says...she had 60 days to communicate that she was unhappy and she never said a word to lead us to believe she was. She also had said that he was scheduled to be hauled to her so why would she say that if she wasn't happy with everything to that point.

I am sorry for such a book, but I am distraught over this and really just want to give her her money back but hubby won't let me. I am so worried about her saying nasty things about me even though hubby says that that would be slander. Slander or not, it could still hurt my business which I have worked so hard to have. I honestly think she got cold feet about buying him (maybe buyer's remorse) and was looking for a way out...Finally, the really weird thing is this last conversation with her was more than a month ago and I haven't heard a ting from her. We sent her a registered letter giving her 60 days to pick him up or at least contact us to make some arrangement. We told her we will consider him abandoned if she fails to get back to us and the 60 days are past. My husband says we would have to auction him after that and from the money we get we would take any expenses we have had while waiting this out. My question to other breeders is...what would you do in this situation? I swear I am getting an ulcer over it. Another problem is that he is not gelded and I can't geld him without her written permission since she technically owns him. So come spring I will have to deal with his hormones, ughhh.

[DressageOPhobia]

Ljshorses I think your story says it all.
To run a horse selling business you have to know your inventory before you try to sell it. You have your reputation as a business to uphold. I want to sell a quality good minded animal. Nothing else. That is what I want to put my money, time, attention and love into, nothing else.

I like you did not xray when I got the gelding as a yearling and before I put the horse on the market. It was pretty embarassing for me to find that my $20k 3 year old Hanoverian failed the prepurchase because they found a large OCD lesion in the stifle.

And yes this is a career ender in the opinion of several vets (I had to face reality.) And yes I did the surgery. And yes the training university vet recommended and did the surgery (the best in the area.) And NO the horse was never lame before the surgery. And Yes the horse was lame after the surgery each time we tried to put him back into work. This was a long process but in the end.....I had to face reality with this horse. I do not believe in selling a horse cheaply that has issues to be rehomed as a project horse again and again. Cruel to a horse with pain issues.

All I am saying about xrays is they are one way to face reality sooner (maybe when they are yearling and 2,,when maybe you can do more about OCD) than later when they are a started dressage prospect and you have invested lots of $$, time and love in them.

[siegi b.]

ljshorses - I would reimburse the woman and keep the colt. Then I would get the hock surgery done and probably geld at the same time. Without having seen the x-rays it's hard for me to make a prediction on the surgery outcome but chances are that the colt will be fine after he recovers.

I have a problem with husbands getting involved when they usually aren't. So he's a lawyer and knows something about suing - that doesn't do much for your business. As you've said, you've built your business over time and can't really afford getting black-balled by an unhappy client (whether she's right or wrong). And I don't think that she got cold feet and then decided to have the horse x-rayed... I think she talked with some folks that know a little about PPEs and told her to at least get the hocks and whatever else done. Her take probably is that since she hasn't taken possession of the horse yet she can still get out of the situation.

Sending the colt to an auction makes no sense to me - financially or otherwise. As I mentioned before, my recommendation is to get the surgery done and also geld the horse, rehab him, and then sell him as a sound prospect.

Good luck!

[ltw]

I agree with Siegi's advice.

I also strongly believe that most of us Horsewomen should keep our Non-horsehusbands out of our Horse Business.

What your husband is advising is not in the best interest of you, the horse, or the buyer.

Doing what Siegi advised will be the best thing for your health and peace of mind, the best thing for your reputation as a breeder, will help you get rid of your ulcer, and will be the best thing for the health of your horse. It will also help you sleep better at night knowing that you did "the right thing".

I think it is important to always put the horse's health and well being first.

[little miss]

Ijshorses, How old is your 'colt' was it a '07 foal? (I couldn't figure it out exactly from your post). Because generally speaking, you can't get accurate x-rays of horses under 18 months. That would be the earliest time to take them. Often youngsters will have "ocd" or fragments during growth periods and then grow out of them, so taking photos of anything under 18 months is generally wasting money, which could be why the vet chose not to do them during the first ppe. Just an idea to think about, I can imagine that it is causing you a lot of problems, usually we say no sale is complete until the money is in the bank, but this is not your case...!

[Fairview Horse Center]

If the colt in question is a 2007 model, I wouldn't be so fast to jump on the surgery wagon. Research has shown that many OCDs present as youngsters, are gone at 2-3. I think as long as he is sound, I would just wait to re-xray at that point.

You may want to send your buyer copies of all the research you can find.

[daisyduke]

LJSHORSES I side with hubby and I certainly do not agree with hubby being kept out of the decision making. Perhaps hubby is not horse-orientated but better yet, he may be business orientated. I am not a horse breeder nor do I sell horses (mine are all lifers), however, when considering your business deal regarding the colt, in my eyes, the buyer is responsible for all pre-purchase exams and if the purchaser agreed to all conditions and prices, they are 100% the new owner . I too have purchased horses with little or no pre-purchase examinations and if complications arise, I accept total responsibility for my decision to go ahead and purchase. In my opinion, your contract was complete 65 days ago. You did not intentionally hide or misrepresent your colt. You are a responsible breeder. You were not unethical in your representation. Buyer Beware!

[siegi b.]

In re-reading ljshorses' post it's possible that the colt in question is just a yearling.... So, I agree with Darlyn and wouldn't have the surgery done right now. Turn the horse back out and then redo the x-rays when he's 2 1/2.

I'm still firm on the other recommendation - return the money and be done with that client. Unless it is your husband's business (in which case he should have handled the whole transaction), it's you who has to continue trying to keep your reputation as a responsible breeder. I can't imagine that a busy attorney would have the time to worry about those things... :-) Cow-girl up!

[ltw]

"My husband says we would have to auction him after that and from the money we get we would take any expenses we have had while waiting this out. My question to other breeders is...what would you do in this situation?"

This is in nobody's best interest, particularly not the horse.

I have been breeding for 20 years. I am also a professional business person in my real job, but there is no way I would let my husband (attorney or not) go through with this plan.

This may be legally what is done with a car, or a horse that is abandoned for non-payment of board. But it is not what I would want happening to a young horse that I bred and put my blood, sweat and tears into.

When we breed horses and bring them into this world, we are responsible for them. We are responsible for placing them in appropriate homes when we sell them. If he cannot be sold right now, get him diagnosed and determine with your vet if he should have the surgery. If he needs the surgery, do it, rehabilitate him, and when he is old enough get him started under saddle. Then you are in a position to sell him to the right home if he is sound and able to work.

[ljshorses]

The colt was 7months old. And he has never been lame or had swelling.

I have a double delimma where my husband is concerned, yes it is my business but he is a "silent" partner. It's just that he doesn't always remain silent, lol. He put up personal stock (got before our marriage) to help fund the purchasing of top mares. So I do feel a bit obligated to at least listen to his pont of view. I am truly certain that I didn't misrepresent the colt in any way whatsoever and even questioned the pre-purchase vet about her not doing x-rays. But and to me this is a big but...I want happy clients and have had so up to this point. Plus I LOVE this colt and am not sure I'd want her to have him especially in a forceful manner. So that is why I am so torn. Personally I would feel better handing her back her money, but I certainly also agree with my hubby and where he comes from, damn...biggest problem with the horse business is you are so emotionally involved no matter what.

[Clear Blue]

I agree with Siegi and ltw. At the end of the day - what is best for the horse that we (as breeders) put on the ground is the most important consideration. It is disheartening to hear that a breeder would consider auctioning off a youngster just to pursue a contract to the nth degree.

Ask hubby how he would deal with the horse if he had been radiographed and failed the PPE? At the end of the day, how much $$ is it really? By doing the right thing (giving money back) and taking care of your youngster - you give him the best chance of a better opportunity coming down the pike.

This can be one of those character building moments - and maybe just a small test of whether you/your hubby have the fortitude to last in this (crazy) business.

Best of luck getting it resolved.

[ltw]

LJS:

One more interesting point:

if this horse was purchased in Germany, he would come with a one year warrantee by German law. You would be required by law to take the horse back and refund all of the buyer's money if something showed up in his health within the year of purchase. That law was passed in Germany about 4-5 years ago.

[ljshorses]

Well, it wouldn't be an auction in a bad way if it goes that way. From what I understand, you need to advertise the auction in at least one publication, any publication. The auction can take place at our farm and as long as one person bids on him (and that could even be me) it is legal.The funny thing is, my vet and 2 others have expressed interest in buying the colt as is. If the buyer would get in touch with me maybe it could easily be resolved and she could just pass the ownership over to one of the others who want him. I am still willing to pay for the surgery no matter who he ultimately goes to because I want the best for him regardless. I think it would be best to wait to actually do the surgery though in case it would to resolve on it's own. I too am very willing to keep him until he's under saddle because he is spectacular. At the end of the day I have to live with my husband so I do need him to be happy as well. Sometimes things aren't just black and white. Regardless of how this ends up, I as a responsible breeder, will do everything possible to not let anything bad happen to this colt.

[ljshorses]

LJS:

One more interesting point:

if this horse was purchased in Germany, he would come with a one year warrantee by German law. You would be required by law to take the horse back and refund all of the buyer's money if something showed up in his health within the year of purchase. That law was passed in Germany about 4-5 years ago.

wow, kind of wish we had that law here, then there would be no issue with my husband

[2foals]

ljshorses, I don't think you did anything wrong, and I think that the buyer has clearly stepped out of bounds to expect you to take the horse back when she had every opportunity to examine the horse to her satisfaction BEFORE she purchased it...nonetheless I agree with the other posters who agree with your feeling that you should take the horse back.

To help you convince your husband... Strictly from a business perspective, the time and energy and stress and possible legal wrangling you will waste trying to track down and "settle" things with this owner while you take care of a horse that doesn't belong to you will be more of a loss than simply returning the money and taking the horse back. There could also be a cost to your reputation from people knowing that you shuffled an "undesirable" youngster off to auction.

Anyway, taking the horse back might not be a loss at all. If the little guy is just a yearling now, you should have plenty of time to re-xray and possibly operate. You'll have to ask your vet, but I would think you have a very decent chance of ending up with a perfectly fine three year old in a couple of years, probably/possibly with clean films.

[Tiki]

Did I miss something here? How the heck can she own the horse when she has only given you a deposit. Did she actually pay in full? I thought she wasn't going to pay until he was shipped. If all you have is a deposit, return it and turn him back out or sell him to the vet who is interested. S/he certainly knows what they letting themselves in for. I would NEVER operate on a sound foal at 7 months of age.

[little miss]

The colt was 7months old. And he has never been lame or had swelling.


Then he is too young to have accurate x-rays taken and the first vet doing the ppe exam was correct. It's unfortunate to think that a horse would have an un-neccessary surgery. This seems more like a "fad" surgery where the vets can get quick money and do something interesting (as apposed to drawing blood for coggins). There are SO many horses with chips and/or ocd fragments at the top level of the sport, I can guarentee it (and know it first hand ;-)). Unless it is causing a problem leave the jewelry in.

And I love the comment about the buyer not being able to see it until they blow up the image on the screen and then it's the size of a dinner plate and the people go running -- classic example!!!!

[Cartier]

The colt was 7months old. And he has never been lame or had swelling.

I have a double delimma where my husband is concerned, yes it is my business but he is a "silent" partner. It's just that he doesn't always remain silent, lol. He put up personal stock (got before our marriage) to help fund the purchasing of top mares. So I do feel a bit obligated to at least listen to his pont of view. I am truly certain that I didn't misrepresent the colt in any way whatsoever and even questioned the pre-purchase vet about her not doing x-rays. But and to me this is a big but...I want happy clients and have had so up to this point. Plus I LOVE this colt and am not sure I'd want her to have him especially in a forceful manner. So that is why I am so torn. Personally I would feel better handing her back her money, but I certainly also agree with my hubby and where he comes from, damn...biggest problem with the horse business is you are so emotionally involved no matter what.
Geez what a mess... especially when it concerns a foal you've raised and cared for. Sounds like you've tried to do everything right... lots of lessons here for everyone. I agree with Darlyn's comment, "tell me again, why the heck do we do this?"

If it were me, I’d settle this now out of court. I’m not an attorney, but I’m suspect your husband will tell you that before you could re-sell this little guy you’d have to get a court to enter a judgment in your favor (under some theory of abandonment I suspect) and then you’d have to foreclose on that judgment and re-sell the little guy. If the purchaser defends against the action, you could easily spend more fighting this in court than the baby is worth. For example, the purchaser may concede that the purchase transaction is complete, but she may ground her response/defense in some version of the Uniform Commercial Code or Lemon Law (alleging that, because of the OCD, your “product” was not fit for the intended purpose... and that you knew or should have known about the OCD). That would call into question whether either parent had previously transmitted OCD... and whether you (as a responsible breeder) had properly inquired about OCD prior to breeding, and whether the stallion owner misrepresented the OCD status of the stallion and what he has transmitted... did he have a history of transmitting OCD... and should you have known of this history. The claims you make in your advertising (e.g on your website) and claims made about the stallions you use in your breeding program (which are also on your website via links)could all be called into question as being misleading... it could go on forever.

Who knows, the purchaser may prevail and may even get damages... there was a case out in Washington State recently where a judge awarded treble damages because the seller of "a product" (in this instance a puppy) did not disclose that one of the grandfathers of the puppy had a congenital heart condition. (At the time the seller sold the puppy, the heart defect of the grandfather was not known, the judge didn't seem to care). The court looked at the claims made on the seller's website (about quality and heath testing) and found for the plaintiff. I am sure your husband will tell you that courts do all sorts of odd things...there is always risk in any litigation. Even with family member who is an attorney, the litigation itself will be taking his time and energy away from dealing with his paying clients. It is easier to settle this and move on... for your peace of mind and for this baby's quality of life. Who knows, the owner of this foal's sire may want you to move on, rather than have a public record of this sire producing OCD... the stallion owner may help out here.

[ljshorses]

Did I miss something here? How the heck can she own the horse when she has only given you a deposit. Did she actually pay in full? I thought she wasn't going to pay until he was shipped. If all you have is a deposit, return it and turn him back out or sell him to the vet who is interested. S/he certainly knows what they letting themselves in for. I would NEVER operate on a sound foal at 7 months of age.

Hi Tiki,

No she paid in full with a signed contract after the pre-purchase exam. I also, in the contract, agreed to board for 60 days free of charge to give her time to hook up shipping (very far away). One little bit I failed to disclose because I felt it was not important to this discussion but now I am wondering... All of this was on the sly so to speak. She insisted I never contact her and that she would only contact me if there was a reason to because she was not wanting her husband to find out. I all along told her I was very uncomfortable with the deception and asked her to be up front but she refused and said it was her money etc... I was always uncomfortable with this sale from the beginning...it just didn't smell right. When I tried to contact her after the 60 days were up to find out about shipping (that's past 60 days with his full sale price in the bank) she blasted me and said her husband was now suspicious since I left a phone message!!!!

I value honesty over everything and have always felt being dishonest can only cause problems and well here you go. Me going along with her scheme sucked me and my business into her crap. That is why I also want her to be gone and give her back her money, not because she is right but because I don't want someone like her having him. What else might she do? Anyway, the theory of the 2nd vet and x-rays being performed is I feel due to her being "caught" by her husband and her looking for a way out. Honestly, I was more than willing to let her out but yes hubby said no. I am truly stuck between a rock and a hard place because initially I did agree with my husband when he explained his "case" but agreeing and feeling comfortable with the actions it has now caused are not the same thing. I am very, very uncomfortable and want it to be over.

My husband says that if I give her back the money now that she will still bad mouth me anyway??? Talk about ulcers...I have lost so much weight over this (not the best way to diet, that's for sure) and have literally been "sick". I can't even sleep without tylenol pm. I truly want to do the "right" thing and make everyone happy, but geez how can I now do that?

[Cartier]

You might have an impartial mediator contact the buyer... and dispassionately lay out all the options (her's and your's)... and the costs involved with pursuing different options (including litigation) ... possibly she will see that the best solution here is to work together to re-sell this baby...

[not again]

It sounds like an unpleasant home for your nice young horse anyway. Adoption agencies have to step in and remove children from a home--it is harder to do for a foal that can't speak for itself.

[Tiki]

Aw geez, ljs. Hugs to you and Jingles for you and your little baby for a good resolution of this horrible dilemma.

[camohn]

That last tidbit DOES sound like the real issue is a domestic one with the hubby and she was looking for an out. Legality aside I would be concerned about him going to a home he may be unwanted for multiple reasons.
How about this as a mediation attempt: you fulfilled the contract so you do not owe her the money back BUT wanting him to go to a better (aka more wanted) place you are willing to re-sell the horse. If and when he is resold you will then reimburse her for whatever you can resell him for up to the purchase price.

[okggo]

I'm sorry you are going through this. It's the sad reality of dealing with the public, you will get nutters now and then despite your best vetting procedures. I had a friend sell a cribber, it was disclosed verbally, in writing AND on the vet check. The woman didn't care, bought the horse, took him to their new boarding barn and guess what, the barn didn't allow cribbers. She called my friend (an attorney, btw) screaming fraud and that she would ruin her, blah blah. My friend could have EASLY won any case against her, but in the back of her mind is, WHAT is going to happen to this gelding? Anyway, she took him back, kept the deposit, and ended up selling him for quite a bit more a couple months later to a great home.

The thing we face here, is that there is a living breathing animal in the middle of this, and I can tell by your posts you would fret every day if she ended up with him. Void the sale, KEEP the deposit (hopefully stipulations in your contract will allow this) and rest easy when you find him a home with somebody who really wants him.

So sorry you are going through this!

[ljshorses]

This is the very reason why these forums can be so valuable. All that have responded to my posts have helped more than you can ever know. I am now going to reapproach my husband with new self assurance (wish me luck...hmm wish I had feminine charms still, damn hate getting old in more ways than one, lol) tonight. His birthday was yesterday and I threw him a little family party and cooked all his favorites. He also got some nifty gifts sooo he is in a GREAT mood today. When he gets home I will approach him with my plea. I know he thinks he is acting as my protector and probably feels that at last something in my business he can actually help with. But I need him to understand the emotional part here more than a simple who's right and who's wrong.

I like the ideas too of keeping the deposit but refunding the rest or/ selling him for her. I will obviously need to discuss this with her and hopefully she too can see past any anger over the situation and will want the best for this beautiful colt who did nothing wrong. Hopefully my nightmare here can help others avoid such a thing in their business transactions.

Well now I am going to get out and ride, something that always helps the soul and since I got greenies under saddle to work, they definitely keep me focused! Thank you all, I knew there would be others out there that would understand why I was so worried about this baby. No baby human or otherwise (as not again implied) needs to be drug into a fight they have no control over.

[ljshorses]

Just an update and more thanks to everyone. The buyer's "in the dark" husband called my husband and he seems like he is a very nice person. He wants to do what is best for the colt too and will act as the mediator to try and reason with his wife. We will be looking into many options, one is to continue to board and repeat x-rays at a later date to see if there is any change. (any suggestions on best age to do this?)

Another option is that we act as an agent for her and sell the colt. However, I would of course disclose the ocd so I am not sure he would sell well without clean x-rays.

Thirdly, refund all but the deposit...this is a little screwey too because I will have to go to the bank (which has since been bought by PNC) and get the deposit slips because... she lied to her husband about that too. She said her deposit was $500 but it was $1500. The check's memo was clearly labeled deposit check. The balance check was also clearly labeled as the balance paid in full. I think I should be able to retrieve this info and will start looking into that right away.

Again, thanks to all that responded to my posts, I actually slept great last night for the first time in quite awhile...no tylenol pm needed, yeah.

[okggo]

ljs, glad things are working out :) fingers crossed it will continue to do so!