Selling on terms? Your thoughts, please.

[Joie]

I have a buyer interested in one of my 2007 foals, as well as 3 of my broodmares as a "package" deal (2 of the mares are currently in-foal). She is hoping to purchase the horses on terms. My concerns are this:

This has been an ongoing discussion since, oh, October. I have not been offered any sort of deposit until today. Granted I have not been pushy, nor have I requested one, but I have had enough, in general, with people requesting videos of the sales horses and never even indicating whether they actually received the video or not. Yesterday I removed most of my sales ads, and I raised the prices on my 2007 foals to reflect the fact that they are now yearlings, and I e-mailed anyone who had requested a DVD and not responded with any sort of feedback that I am assuming they are no longer interested at the prices I had the horses offered at previously, and to please feel free to contact me in the future if I could be of any assistance. I think this is reasonable, as I had indicated on all of the ads that the prices were good through January 1, and it is now Janary 20th. When I finally spoke to this particular buyer for the first time on the phone today, I told her as much. Of course, she asked about and I offered to honor our agreed upon package price, but by now it's been three months of waiting and waiting for any sort of committment from ANYONE, and my mares are three to four more months along in their pregnancies, and I may as well foal them out myself here. My impression is that the buyer would like to ship the horses to her home, some 800 miles away, and continue to make payments on them. The reason for this is she would like to breed the mares to her stallion in 2008. I can totally understand her desire to do this, as she would then not have to collect, and ship, and deal with all of that expense. She would breed live cover at home. I have no problem with her foaling them out there, and returning the foals at weaning, but I am starting to have concerns with the payment issue. How plausible is it to send thousands of dollars worth of horses across the country without payment in full? Is it realistic for me, at this time, to insist they stay here until they are paid in full? Of course, I would offer to do all of the legwork in so far as getting the mares bred to her stallion via AI while they are still on site, and I will continue to work with the 2007 colt until MY 2008 foals are weaned (October-ish), but could I reasonably expect the buyer to assist with upkeep costs? I know she would like to start showing the colt this season, which would not happen if he were still here. But I just cannot wrap brain around sending 1/3 of my herd off without payment in full. I would not charge "board" per se, but it would be helpful to have assistance with hay and grain costs. Or, because I would prefer the horses not ship until they are paid in full do I absorb those costs? Or, am I being weenie? Should I just get good references and send the horses and accept payment? I KNOW this person is active on the show circuit and with my breed organization. So it's not like she's some whackaloon. But I have heard so many horror stories, and people's situations can change in an instant. AND, at this point, my husband is determined that everyone involved in the horse business is crazy and that people just like to look at pretty videos, and he is staunchly refusing to even discuss the horses leaving unpaid. I think there was a time when he'd have been glad to have horses sold, regardless of the situation, but he's resolved to the fact that I am a collector. Really, I think he just feels that we pay our bills, and we're not in the position to finance anyone long term. Me, I HAVE purchased on payments before, but it wasn't a HUGE purchase, and the seller was less than a 2 hour drive away. There was much less risk.

Personal experiences both good and bad are welcomed. Put my mind at ease, or freak me out more...any honest feedback and opinions are welcomed.

[crosscreeksh]

In "my" one word - NO!!! Just go read the long thread on the H/J forum about a girl sending ONE horse away on trial, which is essentially what you would be doing. Big time show people have no more morals about giving you the shaft than any others. I sold a yearling on payments last year - kept him at our farm for 90 days @ $3/day upkeep, then let her take him home ONE week before the last payment was due. It took her two more months to pay the balance. The only way I'd ever take payments again would be with the horse remaining at my farm, charging feeding expenses and with strong penalties in place for default or late payments. I'm sure your buyer would want possession of the horses. Why not? Any loss would be YOURS!!! JMO

[goodmorning]

Personally, I think you are a bit out of your mind to send them out without full payment for all. I reall mean no offense by that either, you sound like quite the nice person, but half of your herd? Lol - if she wants to pay for 2 upfront - send those out and keep the last one - if she wants it bad enough and pays - then all is well.

You never know who will turn out to be a wackoo.

[Ladybug Hill]

I don't send out any horse on trial or payments EVER regardless if it is $500 or $500,000. Just no reason to. And I know I have lost sales, but you know what, my horses have stayed healthy and happy with me! (until buyers did come through) I end up with great buyers too that I usually stay in contact with.

[poltroon]

What about a deal like this:

She buys one horse outright, you ship, sale done.

You offer to give her a discount on the others, but they will remain for sale. If she buys them before someone else, great, if not, whatever.

[Joie]

Wow! That was fast!

OK. I am glad I am not being paranoid. Really, it's not half of my herd (I currently have 15 horses or so), but 4 horses is a lot of horses. And I adore these horses, particularly my mares. Actually, for that matter, if *I* were to keep a colt I would keep the colt she's interested in. He's amazing...and way underpriced IMO, even at "full price". I love this colt. He's my buddy. And although I really, REALLY would like to get him into a show home, like Ladybug Hill said, I KNOW they are all healthy and happy here.

I hate to lose a sale, but I suppose patience is a virtue. And I went into this knowing full well that it isn't for the money.

[butlerfamilyzoo]

I have had a good and a not so good experience. First horse was 2k, me being the seller, Girl was only 40min away... She made the first two payments, then sent me a bad check, i contacted her and she said she made an error, she will send another check, i said no, please send a money order or deliver cash... She then said she didnt have the money... I gave her 2 weeks to come up with the cash or said i would have to reposess the horse... She wrote me back and said i couldnt because she's moved him... Which is a violation of our contract without my approval, so i told her i would have to get a sherrif involved if payment was not at my door within 48hrs. Payment was there in the form of a money order the next day. So technically it all turned out fine. Made me rather mad as i took a 3k loss on this horse to offer her a good horse she otherwise would not have been able to afford.

Now on the flip side, i purchased a mare last year that i could hardly come up with the deposit for... The breeder was EXTREMELY wonderful, and without even a single recomendation, the horse was shipped to me, 900miles away, with just a 1k deposit... I paid the mare off 6 months in advance on a one year payment plan... The breeder mentioned to me that most of her sales are done on payments and she had not once had a bad experience... She also said that she imports ponies from overseas usually on payments with the horse being imported with just a down payment... I thought that was especially generous of those overseas breeders!

I now own a mare that otherwise i would not have been able to afford without a payment plan. I am terrible with my savings account... lol. I will forever be in debt to her.

Just my random thoughts, not that it helps you in any way shape or form... lol...

[ShowjumpersUSA]

Oh No!! Never send a horse out without full payment. If you did such a thing, you would have to hold collateral and she would have to take out insurance, naming you as benefactor, if anything should happen to any of the horses.

goodmorning has a good idea. Let the buyer pay as she goes.

If you are afraid of losing the sale, ask the buyer to sign a good contract, down payment on each horse, and a payment plan... kind of like "Lay A Way".

Or, do it like a car... sign a contract with a percentage down and make payments with interest. Of course, if she defaults on the "loan" what are you going to do? She'll have the horses. Are you going to hire an attorney to take the case through the system until you get your money or the horses back?

You have to protect yourself. If the buyer has a problem with your making this a proper business transaction, walk away.

[Molly Malone]

No.

No money, no horsey. Horse stays on farm until all payments made.

Apart from anything else, why should you give out interest free loans? Does your hay supplier? Mortgage holder?

And suppose she sells your foals?

[horsetales]

I have to agree with others, no horses until they are paid for. Too risky IMO unless I absolutely needed to sell them ASAP. I have purchased two on payment plans, the horses stayed put until I finished my payments and I paid basically an at cost board (just enought to cover their expenses) and I paid vet, farrier etc as if they were living with me.

[Kyzteke]

I've sold a number of horses on "payment plans," and it's worked out great most of the time.

I even sold a horse to a 15 year old girl who took 9 months to pay the filly off!

But I have ALWAYS insisted the horse be paid off in full before it leaves. Period. That is put in the contract loud and clear. If the horse leaves, you have lost your leverage and you run the risk of having the horse damaged (mentally OR physically) when (and if) you get it back.

Just doesn't make good sense.

This has all worked out great until just recently. A woman contracted to buy one of my fillies. She started off by being late in sending the deposit. Then the second payment was late. Then I had to nag for the third. Now I haven't gotten any $$ from her in 6 weeks.

It is in the contract that, if I do not receive any $$ from her in 90 days I am free to re-sell the horse and NOT refund the money she's paid so far. So we'll see.

But this woman willingly chose the amount she would pay monthly, and signed the contract that everything up front.

So I am disappointed, but I'm really glad of one thing -- the horse is still here on my ranch.

Don't let 'em go without the $$$ unless it's someone you've known ALONG time and have a trusting relationship with.

[TropicalStorm]

I've been the buyer all the time who needed to pay in monthly installements, and fortunately, have had very reasonable sellers/breeders.

I purchased two foals...one was not an issue as it was from my trainer, but the other one, I took 5 months to pay, and during that time, he was still mine-i carried insurance on him, paid for his farrier and paid an extra $2 a day in board, but he remained at his breeders.

Didn't bother me at all. I could completely understand why asnyone would be reluctant to let their horse go without full payment. I know I would

[rideagoldenpony]

Just because she seems like she's not "some wackaloon" today, doesn't mean she wouldn't turn into one after she already has your horses.

Don't do it.

IF you decide to be nice enough to offer terms, then price them at their current prices, and charge a nominal boarding fee. Require mortality insurance, with you named as the beneficiary. Be sure when you write the contract you have wording to protect you fairly quickly in the case of non payment so that you are not stuck waiting and waiting if she decides not to pay for them after all.

I would absolutely NOT consider, under any circumstances whatsoever, letting that many animals leave my property without payment in full. The person who seems so nice and honest is not necessarily so. What they present to you via phone, e-mail, whatever, is not necessarily what they will turn out to be.

And yes, I have been burned. Very badly. And I've learned my lesson. It would be a lot cheaper for you to learn from the mistakes of others than to lose big time on a deal like this.

And as a side note -- the way so much time has gone by, etc --- that would raise a big ol' red flag for me.....

[camohn]

The only horse I sent out on trial I did this way: the horse did not go to the folks that were interested in buying. She was a broodmare that was riding sound but did not have much under saddle time when she became a broodmare. She was green then, and then became a BM for 3 years. She had 3 foals (1 bad, 1 decent, 1 awesome) and I decided she was too inconsistent a producer to keep. SHe was a SWEET mare, so I started her back under saddle to sell her. She had just started back to work when these folks wanted to buy her. So....I sent her to a friend that was a trainer that lived near them. He continued her training/I knew she was with someone I trusted. They were welcome to come and ride her at his place over the course of 30 days. The price increased on a per diem amount that was equal to the training board I was paying on her. The faster they decided she was what they wanted then the less they paid. If they did not buy her at the end of 30 days I was going to pay the training board myself and the price was going to jump a good bit for now having 30 days training back u/s (officially). She would come home at that point as I didn't want to pay more than a month's training board if they didn't buy her....but it WAS in fact worth it to me to have her trained there for a month regardless. Plus I didn't have the worry of not knowing what the heck she was doing. They did buy her at the end of the full 30 days. Non under saddle horses I have taken "on farm" payment plans but the horse does not leave til paid for. I have bought horses on payment plans as well. All except one I also paid field board rates until the horse was paid for and could leave. The one I brought home on a payment plan pre payment the seller was A) someone I knew that trusted me and B) needed the horse to leave soon for personal reasons.

[Stacie]

I wouldn't agree to breed the mares either, unless they were paid for in full. Just imagine the chaos if she had you breed the mares (to a stallion *you* would not choose) and then defaulted on the payments. What a mess it would be! And I would not let anyone foal out a mare if I wanted the foal back. Those first months are so crucial.

[crosscreeksh]

Think of it this way...you're NOT losing a sale...A sale is when you get money for a product and the buyer gets the product. Unless you are willing and able to write off all the money and not be upset - get the $$$ first!!! You are being asked to give living, breathing, able to get sick and hurt, "dollars" /ie: horses" to a total stranger and send them 800 miles away -across state lines, no doubt!! BAD DEAL!!! Especially if you are fond of the horses. It would be a tragedy not only if you lost out on the money, but horses you like. It would be really hard to get them back or even track them down. There are good buyers out there!! While person #1 is screwing around with payment plans a "real" buyer with money might come along!

[Joie]

Well, my buyer called me 45 minutes ago, and we thoroughly discussed the situation. My stomach has been in knots since we spoke earlier today, and truly I thought I was going to lose the sale when I set forth the terms that will make me comfortable. However, she agreed that it is MORE than fair for me to ask that the horses stay here until they are paid in full, and even agreed to pay maintanance costs without hesitation. In fact, she said that she couldn't keep them there for what I would charge her to keep them here, so I am very, very relieved. Now, if this all works out, I can foal out the mares, and get them bred for her before they wean their 2008 foals, and I can spend a bit more time with the Luckster, too, and perhaps come to terms with parting with him. :( Perhaps he'll turn into an ugly yakling and I'll fall out of love, right? (I doubt it.)

So, PHEW! I feel embarassed to have bothered everyone, but I really REALLY needed to hear other peoples' thoughts. Now, I just need to get my contract finished up, and set her payment terms, default specifications, insurance requirements, etc. and see if it will work for her. I have a skeleton contract started, but would REALLY appreciate any input or examples, if anyone wants to share a contract that they have used (hint hint hint). If so, feel free to e-mail it to me at:

fourleaffarm@hotmail.com

I will surely keep you all posted to the outcome. I am sure this will be a long road for me. I tend to get attached to EVERYTHING around here, and selling is not my strong point.

Thank you again, everyone. Really, you have no idea how helpful you have been. I feel so much happier now after having the chance to talk at length with the buyer, as well. I am hopeful that this could be a good placement and a happy sale for all involved. I really feel that the general state of affairs with "buyers" over the past several months (tire kickers and DVD collectors) in general has soured me on selling, and I was in an "they're-all-trying-to-screw-me" mindset when I should have just made my expectations clearer. (You would think that a teacher would KNOW that so much hinges on letting people know in advance what your expectations are, right?) Perhaps this will be the turning point or me and I'll have a good 2008. One can hope! Fingers crossed!!

Thanks again!

[Touchstone Farm]

I agree with all the posters who said no and their reasons. If someone can't afford to pay for them (nor has a banker willing to give her a loan), how do you know the horses will be taken care of when they get there? Will vaccinations be given? Does the woman even know anything about foaling out (other than what she told you)? So you get a call after the foals are born and, so sorry to tell you this, one died. Yeah, right. You mean it's sold on the sly.

Don't fret about "losing a sale." It really doesn't sound like you have one...not really. And without a deposit, to pass on other interested parties doesn't sound wise. Lastly, I think you know in your gut this is not a good idea...or you wouldn't have posted here! But if you were on the edge, hopefully the majority of the opinion here has convinced you not to go forward with this. Good luck!!!

[Jump14]

no $$= no horses

...simple as that!