Your broodmare band, details

[AlexMakowski]

Alrighty. I have been thinking lately about where I would want to be in five or ten years. Whatever job I have I know horses will be a big part of my life. So here is my question, or series of questions. For those of you who have been successful in breeding, Im curious about your band of mares, but more so about whether or not you keep any of their offspring for breeding as well. If this is confusing you, like it does for me sometimes, im going to try and break it down.

Do you keep fillies from your mares to add to your mare band? I have been looking at quite a few breeder sites and noticed that they have quality mares, but not many second generation ones. Would having a mare and one of her offspring, both with foals, on the same farm make a sale less likely? Or does having the two quality mares offer a second chance to buy a foal of similar blood in the event that one is sold?

Im sorry if this is confusing, its difficult to word this, but my situation is I have two fillies, both out of the same mare and I want to compete them and eventually put them into my own breeding program, but the mare will remain in the family breeding program, the fillies will be mine. If this were your situation, would you cut one from the group and bring in other blood into your breeding program? I would rather compete something that was going to stay with me, so she had a performance record for when she was bred, than compete something I wasnt going to have in the long run.

Once again sorry if this is so confusing.

[Sassenach]

:yes: We do keep our fillies.

This year there was a 'no way in hell we can't keep her' as the mare died when the filly was a month old. She's not going anywhere.

In Ireland we also kept a 'keeper' filly her mother is now 20 and in foal with #14 her last 5 have all been fillies. We also can't repeat this cross as her sire died and there is the fact that she was the last foal my Grandpa bred before he died. So yes she ain't going anywhere either (except maybe coming to the US).

In my breed especially you see breeders who continually retain daughters from their mares or original mares. Our one friend is up to generation 9 from their original mare (his Grandfather started breeding in 1930).

[TrueColours]

Good questions! :)

I have one mare - Puchi Trap - that is basically the solid cornerstone of my breeding program and she is being bred back each year to my stallion - Guaranteed Gold - because the "nick" with those bloodlines and those 2 are absolutely perfect, foal after foal. The foal is an improvement each time over both sire and dam, they are highly marketable and the demand continues to be high for them, based a lot in part with what the first cross - a 2004 mare - is starting to do out in the show world. So that cross will continue forever, as long as they are both breedable

In the 2004 mare, she is the epitome of what I have strived to produce in my breeding program and with her, I can have some real fun designing "custom matches" for her and continuing her show career, and producing some highly desirable (I hope!) ET babies out of her.

I truly believe that as those ET foals out of Faux Finish hit the ground, they will further enhance the value and desirablity of the Puchi Trap foals, and on the flip side of the coin, the strong demand for the Puchi Trap offspring and the hopefully excellent continued show results for Faux Finish, will make those ET babies a desired commodity as well.

I also have no doubt that one mare will compliment and enhance the value of the foals out of the other mare and in no way, will one drag down the other in regards to the market values of either mare's foals

So - if the initial mare's offspring command high interest and high ROI's through her offspring, and those mares are then having a succesful show career, then I think you will be fine as well and can only win by having the next generation in your breeding program as well

[not again]

The cornerstone of our breeding program is based on performance, and that performance at the top level. We get a foal from a filly and then put her into the riding program. If the foal is exceptional and we have a sibling competing very successfully then a filly may stay in the breeding program.. We try to remember to "breed the best and ride the rest." But we feel that if you go generations with out proven ride-ability you may end up with lots of horses who look good on paper, but can't do the job you hoped they are designed for.

[Home Again Farm]

I have kept some. They must please me in every way. Initial assessment is when they are very young — conformation, gaits, desirable bloodlines and outstanding temperament. Later I look for excellent inspection results and breed show assessments. When they are 3 they will go under saddle and once again must show what I want to see — willingness, rideability, talent and temperament. Some stay under saddle and show for a couple of years, though I can't afford to do that with many. Last they must be easy breeders, good mothers and have babies that are the sort that I aim to produce.

At any step along the way I may change my assessment of a filly and she may end up being sold.

To answer your question, I would look long and hard at your mare and fillies. If the fillies pass every single test and are better than your mare, keep them both and build from there. If one is less excellent, sell that one. But if you keep any fillies, keep the very best ones.

[amdfarm]

Because I also have the stallion, I tend to not keep fillies, plus the fact that he doesn't like to give me any! I got one this last year for myself, haven't decided if I'm keeping her or not, yet he's given three outside mare owner's them. It's almost like he knows and feels he'll be replaced if I start keep too many of his daughters (I won't breed father/daughter.) I have several colts that I wished were fillies, but oh well.

I have kept two fillies from other stallions, but even they probably won't be bred to my stallion. They are both very young, yearling and two year old so time will tell what they're capable of once they're started and we'll go from there... if they're even used for breeding down the road.

You've gotten some great advice! Good luck w/ whatever you decide.

[pintopiaffe]

As AMD said, it's going to depend on whether you stand your own stallion. Although my program is based on truly Great Mares.

So far I have only kept one filly. I had a mother/daughter but daughter was an outside line. I lost daughter and have been trying to 'replace' her ever since with outside breeding. I have one filly by my stallion whom I completely waffle between keeping and selling. She was sold, but board was defaulted on by a long, long way, and I was able to buy her back, so I did. Now I have her father and her brother and she will always have to be bred outside. She's going to start a riding/performance career this summer, I may not breed her at all (though she is spectacular.)

Since I know I may spend the last few foals out of my granddam mare TRYING for the keeper filly I may never get, I bought a weanling this year. She is everything I want/hope for, and it makes more sense to purchase rather than want and hope for 11 months then get the wrong plumbing or the wrong colour. ;)

Everything I have done the past two or three years, and the next few, are with an eye toward ten or twenty years from now. Not one decision has been for the short term. It's meant a few years without a sale horse--which the IRS is going to have a problem with soon--and it's hard when you're not having sales to keep on the path you believe in. But this is a lifetime thing for me, and the horses are my 'retirement' project.

The biggest/hardest decision I have right now is whether to take another broodie prospect on, or wait and see if I can ever get the keeper filly out of the old Grande Dam.

The thing is, I would LOVE to keep the fillies and sell the boys, but economically it makes more sense for ME to not have daughters. AI is a huge hassle for me right now as I have to board to do it. Fate handed me a keeper SON out of my Trak mare, who is a stallion prospect. That changed everything.

If I did not have my own stallion, I would definitely be very choosy which fillies went... and would have generations out of my best girl ;)

[maple_brook]

The best breeding advise I ever received was 'know and develop your mare lines'. In Germany, so many of the very successful breeders think in generations and upon building from one generation to the next. This does not mean that you keep an inferior filly. But rather a filly who is an improvement over her already nice mother. And as Home Again points out, you want to evaluate them constantly.

Now if my mares would only start having fillies...

[erinwillow]

The best breeding advise I ever received was 'know and develop your mare lines'. In Germany, so many of the very successful breeders think in generations and upon building from one generation to the next. This does not mean that you keep an inferior filly. But rather a filly who is an improvement over her already nice mother. And as Home Again points out, you want to evaluate them constantly.

Now if my mares would only start having fillies...


"This does not mean that you keep an inferior filly. But rather a filly who is an improvement over her already nice mother". Soooooooooo true :winkgrin:
We are still working on our program. . . "a work in progress". . then again I think with an endeavor like breeding . . .it is always a wok in progress. At any rate, this year our 21 year old mare gave us an absolutely gorgeous dilute black filly. I mean she is really a stunner. I knew the second she was on the ground that she was not for sale. My plan is to breed her out to other quality stallions that are available and the ultimate goal is for her to replace her mum as she truly is a very much better version than mama and mama is a nice mare! :winkgrin: We are lucky enough to have the space to keep her even when we also stand her sire. Honestly? When they are nice keep them!

[ahf]

For me to keep a stellar filly, she must not only be equal to or an improvement on the mare, she must bring something genetically to the table I would have a hard time replicating - or have genes that I specifically want. So I tend to breed differently when planning a filly to keep.

For instance - there must be 2000 Rotsons or Sandro Hits in the states. THere are probably 4 Wilawander xx's. The Wilawander filly is the keeper, not the Rotspon or the SH.

[erinwillow]

For me to keep a stellar filly, she must not only be equal to or an improvement on the mare, she must bring something genetically to the table I would have a hard time replicating - or have genes that I specifically want. So I tend to breed differently when planning a filly to keep.

For instance - there must be 2000 Rotsons or Sandro Hits in the states. THere are probably 4 Wilawander xx's. The Wilawander filly is the keeper, not the Rotspon or the SH.

Sooooooooooo true! For us, we are dealing with a relatively smaller sized genetic population. . .Connemaras. . not only statesside but worldwide. Genetic Diversity is key as well as maintaining or producing lines or crosses that will bolster and maintain the healthiness of the breed as well. good point!

[not again]

I agree with the unique pedigree, ahf, which is why my Daylily WF is not for sale!

[Fire_fly]

Anyone who has an opinion on this : wondered if breeders would keep a mare who obviously produced better than herself, and rebreed her again and again....or keep her nicer fillies and breed those as your main broodmares ?

[erinwillow]

Anyone who has an opinion on this : wondered if breeders would keep a mare who obviously produced better than herself, and rebreed her again and again....or keep her nicer fillies and breed those as your main broodmares ?

both :winkgrin: And, depending on temperment, quality, space and $$$ would keep the creme de la creme.

[Windswept Stable]

I try to keep in in a business perspective. A business has to sell to stay afloat. Hay, grain and vet bills do not pay for themselves.
Thus, if I decide that I really like a filly, I set a pricetag on her. If someone comes along and whats to pay that much for her, then I will sell her. Otherwise, I will retain her for my program.

I think it is a little different if you own your own stallion, because even though you retain fillies--you generally have to go outside your own program for another stallion then, thus--I am just as happy to sell my fillies and then get another well bred mare to breed to my stallion.

[Clear Blue]

I agree with HAF. We try to keep, or at least get one filly foal from our best mares before selling them into performance homes.

We had our first great grand-daughter in 2007. Hoping for a second one in a few weeks.

AHF also makes a good point about the value of different pedigrees. As mine are all "off the beaten path" it really comes down to the quality of the individual and what matches I can see in the future for her.

[barilar]

If the mare is young and an outstanding producer I would sell her fillies into other breeding programs, they can promote the line with showing and or breed her. I think this helps to show how valuable that mare line is. As the broodmare gets older I would look to keep one of her outstanding daughters as a replacement.

Angela

www.HPHanoverians.com

[TwinGates]

I have kept some. They must please me in every way. Initial assessment is when they are very young — conformation, gaits, desirable bloodlines and outstanding temperament. Later I look for excellent inspection results and breed show assessments. When they are 3 they will go under saddle and once again must show what I want to see — willingness, rideability, talent and temperament. Some stay under saddle and show for a couple of years, though I can't afford to do that with many. Last they must be easy breeders, good mothers and have babies that are the sort that I aim to produce.

At any step along the way I may change my assessment of a filly and she may end up being sold.

To answer your question, I would look long and hard at your mare and fillies. If the fillies pass every single test and are better than your mare, keep them both and build from there. If one is less excellent, sell that one. But if you keep any fillies, keep the very best ones.

Could not agree more.

[columbus]

I am a breeder of Irish Draughts. It is a breed that is rare any way you look at them. I have a passion for them and it is my desire to find more people who want to breed fine horses in general and convince them to breed Irish Draughts in particular. I also have to cultivate a market for the horses I produce as most people have the wrong picture in their head when the discussion turns to Irish Draughts. They need to see them to understand the passion...to know they want one of their own, so I can sell them, so I can breed more.
I imported my first mare as a foal from Ireland as the best mare I could afford was a baby. I am now looking at breeding her first filly who is near three. So I have to get my horses out there any way possible and I have to breed as much as I can. As a one person farm I am limited in the number of horses I can care for and support. The end result is everything is for sale always.
If I sold my top mare I could find another mare of perhaps a rare line who has not gotten the chance to breed...so I can add diversity.
Her daughter was a varus foal so perhaps she will get to stay...being harder to find a buyer for...except she is a superior mover if not perfect in other ways. If she sells perhaps I could buy a filly produced by another breeder so they can breed their mare more often. Always in the background I have the on going plan for my foundation mare. She is a candidate for an embryo transfer so she can stay in training and be shown this season so people can see her...see an Irish Draught...get excited. I will be repeating a breeding for the first time. Each breeding tells me more about my mare. In Irish Draughts we don't have a large community with a broad basis of results to compare like continental warmbloods. I am using a stallion who has rarely been used by purebred breeders so I rely on my own skill to select my crosses...very interesting.

Pat Orgas
Merrypath Irish Draughts

[not again]

Alex: You also mentioned few breeders keeping generations of mare lines. Most breeders are just getting started, and haven't gotten to that point yet.
We have the joy of 40 plus years of breeding, so we have fourth and even sixth generations. The most fun is scolding or praising a foal with " I remember when you grandmother ( or grandfather) did that!" There are few surprises when it comes time to ride the young horses.
If you plan to stay in breeding and ride as well, pay attention to the successful riding bloodlines which offer long term physical and mental soundness. You will experience less disappointment under saddle.
I hope you have as much fun and success with your homebreds as we have. Good luck!

[Sassenach]

Alex: You also mentioned few breeders keeping generations of mare lines. Most breeders are just getting started, and haven't gotten to that point yet.
We have the joy of 40 plus years of breeding, so we have fourth and even sixth generations. The most fun is scolding or praising a foal with " I remember when you grandmother ( or grandfather) did that!" There are few surprises when it comes time to ride the young horses.
If you plan to stay in breeding and ride as well, pay attention to the successful riding bloodlines which offer long term physical and mental soundness. You will experience less disappointment under saddle.
I hope you have as much fun and success with your homebreds as we have. Good luck!

Our one friend is 9th generations - his grandfather was breeding the line he is now. When I told him that he blinked at me and went '9 generations... that'd be about right... I grew up with these ponies!' :) I hope to be around - and breed long enough for! - to see my own x amount of generation ponies.

[camohn]

We are a smallish farm (34 acres) with 2 kinds of horses...my riding/breeding horses and hubby's polo ponies, so I don't have the space to keep pots of fillies. Most of our foals are sold regardless of sex. I do keep an occasional one. We moved here/started breeding in 1999 so 9 years now. I have kept one filly from our deceased stallion and one filly from my favorite deceased mare. I have a 22 YO mare that is due in April and this will be her last foal. So far she has had 3 colts and 1 filly. I am hoping she is having a filly this time...I figure she is due!......we will see in April!

[camohn]

Anyone who has an opinion on this : wondered if breeders would keep a mare who obviously produced better than herself, and rebreed her again and again....or keep her nicer fillies and breed those as your main broodmares ?
I have one......a decent but not WOW mare that consistently to date throws her head and the stallion from the poll down! I have not kept any foals from her yet...I can't keep em all. She also has only HAD one fillly......rest were colts! In the case of another mare she had a filly better than herself. I kept the filly. Since I needed to cut down the herd I kept her and her dam is at present leased out with the option to purchase. If the mare does not come back in the end at least I did keep her super nice daughter.

[pinecone]

All responsible breeders should have a long term plan, imho, and should always look ahead to future generations. Each generation should be nicer than the one before it, therefore it makes sense to hold back a nice filly from time to time to replace a broodmare. This way the band of broodmares keeps improving.

However, I will never understand the backyard breeders who, when they can't sell their young stock, turn around later and breed them also, and all they do then is end up with another generation of unsaleable horses. If you can't sell a filly, try to figure out why, don't add her to the broodmare band later just to 'give her a job'!

[erinwillow]

I am a breeder of Irish Draughts. It is a breed that is rare any way you look at them. I have a passion for them and it is my desire to find more people who want to breed fine horses in general and convince them to breed Irish Draughts in particular. I also have to cultivate a market for the horses I produce as most people have the wrong picture in their head when the discussion turns to Irish Draughts. They need to see them to understand the passion...to know they want one of their own, so I can sell them, so I can breed more.
I imported my first mare as a foal from Ireland as the best mare I could afford was a baby. I am now looking at breeding her first filly who is near three. So I have to get my horses out there any way possible and I have to breed as much as I can. As a one person farm I am limited in the number of horses I can care for and support. The end result is everything is for sale always.
If I sold my top mare I could find another mare of perhaps a rare line who has not gotten the chance to breed...so I can add diversity.
Her daughter was a varus foal so perhaps she will get to stay...being harder to find a buyer for...except she is a superior mover if not perfect in other ways. If she sells perhaps I could buy a filly produced by another breeder so they can breed their mare more often. Always in the background I have the on going plan for my foundation mare. She is a candidate for an embryo transfer so she can stay in training and be shown this season so people can see her...see an Irish Draught...get excited. I will be repeating a breeding for the first time. Each breeding tells me more about my mare. In Irish Draughts we don't have a large community with a broad basis of results to compare like continental warmbloods. I am using a stallion who has rarely been used by purebred breeders so I rely on my own skill to select my crosses...very interesting.

Pat Orgas
Merrypath Irish Draughts
I really appreciated the mention of "passion" and worth "getting excited about". . these words and phrases for me represent what breeding is all about :D so thank you for mentioning them!

[Iron Horse Farm]

An 06 Contendro / Voltaire filly was my first keeper in over 10 years of breeding. At first it was just my opinion, but when she was Premium and Champion filly of our inspection, I felt like my decision was validated.

I let one get away in 2000. A filly that I bred was sold ( I just knew that I shouldn't) and I recently found out that she is in training with Damian Gardner pointing towards the Olympic trials. Sooooo, I still have mom and I am going to try again. I can always point to a successful parade of offspring as a reason to keep one also.

[Sassenach]

An 06 Contendro / Voltaire filly was my first keeper in over 10 years of breeding. At first it was just my opinion, but when she was Premium and Champion filly of our inspection, I felt like my decision was validated.

I let one get away in 2000. A filly that I bred was sold ( I just knew that I shouldn't) and I recently found out that she is in training with Damian Gardner pointing towards the Olympic trials. Sooooo, I still have mom and I am going to try again. I can always point to a successful parade of offspring as a reason to keep one also.

The worst for us was that our old stallion and our very good broodmare produced 4 for 4 with fillies and each one was better than the last.

Jenny miscarried her foal (that's what happens when idiot people in helicopters flying tourists in Ireland come down to low and scare the ever living daylights out of a mare :mad:). We were going to breed her back in the Spring but Paddy died in January :no:

Been trying to track down their daughters in hopes of buying one and you won't get them for gold - one is a big show winner up in Galway, one was for sale but when we called she had sold days prior :sigh: at least we have our most recent filly whose cross cannot be repeated but it would have been a good thing to have kept a filly for our old stallion and Jenny.

Hindsight is 20/20 - Paddy wasn't that old and so we thought we'd always have time to breed another.

[Zlotych]

she is in training with Damian Gardner pointing towards the Olympic trials.


That might be tuff, with him on the USEF suspended list and all.

[Iron Horse Farm]

That might be tuff, with him on the USEF suspended list and all.

He is not actually listed as the rider, but since she's at his barn, I am sure that he's the one on her. The worst of it is......they have slightly altered her name and her USEF lists no breeder at all. Because, you know, nice horses aren't bred, they just "majikly appear".

[YankeeLawyer]

For me to keep a stellar filly, she must not only be equal to or an improvement on the mare, she must bring something genetically to the table I would have a hard time replicating - or have genes that I specifically want. So I tend to breed differently when planning a filly to keep.

For instance - there must be 2000 Rotsons or Sandro Hits in the states. THere are probably 4 Wilawander xx's. The Wilawander filly is the keeper, not the Rotspon or the SH.

Maybe, but try buying a good Sandro Hit mare here.

[AlexMakowski]

Thankyou everyone for your advice, experiences, and general breeding information. I was thinking along the same lines as AHF with the idea of trying to use different bloodlines, of course I still would love to keep the Sandro Hit and Rubinstein blood in my band.

I was aso right up the alley of Columbus with the Irish Draughts. That is a breed I have been very passionate about too, but I was beginning to think there wasnt a market for the breed in the US. I would love to breed 1/4 and 1/2 Irish Draughts, but start experiment with crossing the breed to a few warmbloods. Just a thought. But I still love the TB's and Han. as well. Maybe one big cross breeding is in order. haha

Thank you everyone once again. This really helps!

[AlexMakowski]

And I also have a tb mare that is quite amazing for the breed that will soon be the corner stone of our breeding program. So I guess we are off to a good start.

Good luck and safe foalings to everyone.

[Sacha]

I've only been breeding on my own for a few years but have alreayd bred fillies to keep. I wa slucky enough to lease two fabulous Trakehner mares, mother and daughter. The first foal I bred from the daughter was a superb filly that we decided to retain, and as we had the mare for a 2nd year, decided to breed a pure rbed foal from hre, with the aim of breeidng another keeper filly. So lots of careful planning round bloodlines etc and we got our filly, and was was a Champion at our national youngstock evaluations so we got very lucky. The mare has now returned to her owner.
However Her mother, grandma, is still with us and we are trying to breed a keeper filly from her too, so fingers crossed this is the year.

My lovely coloured mare produced a super filly in 07 who we always planned to sell. However I am now aiming to breed a replacement that is an improvement on the mare, and the mare will then be sold.

[columbus]

While I breed purebred Irish Draughts I have followed The Irish Draught Sport Horse(IDSH) it is certainly not true that they have no market but their market is as horses already started under saddle. At the time I made my choice of what to do in my menopausal adventure I would not have been able to afford to raise my youngsters to the age of 4 and start them to sell. However once they are started they jump in price rather rapidly depending of course on your contacts and marketing skill. I see many IDSH youngsters on the market and they look very nice but they are not marketed well so if you were to improve on that effort you might prove me wrong and succeed in selling young sport horses. They are sure fun to have around

Pat Orgas
Merrypath Irish Draughts

[didgery]

Good questions! :)

I have one mare - Puchi Trap - that is basically the solid cornerstone of my breeding program and she is being bred back each year to my stallion - Guaranteed Gold - because the "nick" with those bloodlines and those 2 are absolutely perfect, foal after foal.


OT, but each of your Puchi Trap foals have been the stuff of my dreams ever since I found your website . . . .

[okggo]

For those of you that keep the fillies, when do you break down and sell their dam? It seems like eventually land would run out, unless you are one of the lucky ones with a huge farm and staff.

If you have a truly exceptional filly, will anybody sacrifice selling the dam to keep the filly? I've wondered this about my mares. I love them both, but if they out produce themselves the only way I could keep a filly would be to sell the mom. That would be a hard chunk to swallow, for me anyway.

[Waterwitch]

For those of you that keep the fillies, when do you break down and sell their dam? It seems like eventually land would run out, unless you are one of the lucky ones with a huge farm and staff.

If you have a truly exceptional filly, will anybody sacrifice selling the dam to keep the filly? I've wondered this about my mares. I love them both, but if they out produce themselves the only way I could keep a filly would be to sell the mom. That would be a hard chunk to swallow, for me anyway.

A few ways to go about this if you have limited space...one is to continually breed up, selling the mares once they have replaced themselves with something better. Another way is what I do because I am not very risk tolerant when it comes to my mare line. I keep the golden goose and upgrade the fillies. This works for me because I don't breed for the market, I only breed what I want to keep.

[Iron Horse Farm]

For those of you that keep the fillies, when do you break down and sell their dam? It seems like eventually land would run out, unless you are one of the lucky ones with a huge farm and staff.

If you have a truly exceptional filly, will anybody sacrifice selling the dam to keep the filly? I've wondered this about my mares. I love them both, but if they out produce themselves the only way I could keep a filly would be to sell the mom. That would be a hard chunk to swallow, for me anyway.

Well..........my foundation mare is now 14. I am breeding her to Agincourt this year and hoping to get a filly to replace her. By the time the filly would be of breeding age, mom will be 18. She has had several fillies that were all an improvement on mom, but we sold them all and kept breeding mom. Now it is time to keep one. I will keep breeding mom as long as she is sound and happy, but would feel better retiring her if I had a replacement waiting in the wings.