Fun In Trimming! Or, Check Out These Feet - UPDATED PICS ON POST 1 and 100

[EqTrainer]

The first shot is when I pulled his shoes. The rest are todays trim, the second "real" one. I have rolled them a few times between then and now.

Still no water to wash those feet... it was darn cold here today!

More pics in post 100.

[Lauren!]

I'm not a professional trimmer, but I do trim my own horses, one of whom was pretty messed up when I started doing him (already barefoot, but had tons of flare and underrun heels because he was very badly behaved for the last guy and I had not yet started learning to do my own at that point).

I would probably bring the horse's toe back a bit (for now, more over time), rasp off the flare in the lowest 1/3, and bring down the heels a little at a time (it's hard for me to see exactly where they are in the picture). I mainly trim from the top (much like Paige Poss's description at ironfreehoof.com). I would rather do a bit, step back, look, and maybe do a bit more, then do it again in a week or two than do a ton at once. JMHO... I'm far from an expert opinion, but I'm interested to hear what others have to say!

[Daydream Believer]

I would first address the run away toes and bad flaring as much as I can...take the wall right back to the white line and try to get his breakover back. I would level the heels but probably not take them down much on the first trim....just getting him out of the wedge pads might help with his heels also as they look pretty crushed. I would "feather" them also the way Paige does to help encourage the heels to grow downward instead of forward from the back.

He looks like a horse that would be sore if you were too aggressive though so without seeing him, I'd be cautious about attacking the flaring too much also as I've seen that cause soreness. Is he flat soled? He looks a bit that way but I wasn't sure how much of that is dead sole I'm seeing. I'd also not do much to his bars other than to cut away any folded over bar...they don't look that bad and leaving them will help support him. He'd be a good candidate for boots and a wedge pad insert under his frogs also to help get him landing heel first as quickly as possible.

Is this a horse you did? Unfortunately, I've seen a few as bad as him and one worse. The worse one I trimmed had much more contracted heels that that...his were about an inch apart, flat thin soles and worse flaring.

[EqTrainer]

I pulled his shoes off yesterday. I only had a second to take "before" pics and will try to do some "afters" next week.

DB, I hope you didn't think I did that to that poor horse!

FWIW, I pulled his toe back as far as I could, rolled all the edges and backed away slowly, holding my breath. I did not touch his heels, which of course are not really heels at all.

He is 80% sounder today.

[Daydream Believer]

DB, I hope you didn't think I did that to that poor horse!



Oh No! I knew you didn't shoe him like that! I just wondered if you trimmed him after his shoes were pulled? Sounds like we are on the same wavelength...be conservative and get those toes back!

So glad to hear he's feeling better too! :-)

[Lauren!]

I did not touch his heels, which of course are not really heels at all.

Are his heels underrun or crushed? It's hard for me to tell on my computer screen. If so, what's the best course of action? I trimmed my horse's back a bit at a time and kept up on them and it worked nicely. I don't have a good understanding of the feathering concept... anyone care to elaborate?

Glad to hear he's on the mend... can't wait to see the after pics :)

[EqTrainer]

His heels are...

it's beyond crushed or underrun, although I suppose those are proper terms to use. The tubules have been so leveraged/misaligned that they are running completely horizontal at this point. The bottom of them are worn off where the pads were. So he effectively has no heels at all. There is actually nothing at all to rasp off in the heel area.

I think in about 3 inches of growth, I will find a heel buttress :D

Personally, when I deal with a horse like this I pick - toes or heels. In his case, I figured it was the toes that had to go. Definately a conservative approach, my goal is to get him comfortable and keep him that way during this transition.

My gut feeling is that he is going to be just fine :)

[EqTrainer]

Bumping for JB and Lookout!

[CookiePony]

I thought toes myself.

This is fun, Eqtrainer... I hope other experienced hoof people post more pics with "what would you do" questions.

Poor horse, BTW. :no:

[JB]

Oh drats, I was trying to sneak away from this one :lol: :lol:

I would probably start at the toes and back them up with a vertical cut to the edge of the sole (screw it if some don't like the look of that cut ;)) I'd take the smoother side of the rasp and see what I could find in the way of a heel buttress. Every couple of days I'd take 2-3 light swipes on the heels to keep ANY new growth from growing forward.

I'd make sure every bit of outer wall was in non-contact with the ground. I can't see the pics now (why don't thumbnails stay visible when typing a new reply? :confused:) but if I saw any major WL stretching behind the toe quarters, I'd take it back to the sole. Leaving it has to hurt and sure isn't helping.

So, short answer - toes first :)

[EqTrainer]

Oh JB, you are so optimistic.. WHAT white line? None to speak of. I guess that means it's stretched :eek:

Here is the good news: his owner is on board with these changes and I just checked on him a minute ago.. and he feels good.

Now, friends... besides the Borax soak, any new and fabulous thrush and fungus killing techniques? I can't get a boot on and I don't think he'll let me bag his feet so Cleantrax is out. Plus, I have found that until the hoof form improves, there is no point in doing that. I save it for the final hurrah!

[irishcas]

EQ:

Yeah for you :)

I would bring the toes back into the WL and also would nipper out those bars and lower the heel a touch.

It looks like you have a lot of exfoliating sole, so that is why I'm saying you could do this.

You don't want the heels level with the frog as it (frog) and the Digital Cushion are not up to handling that load yet.

Between those too I think within 2 weeks you'll have major improvements.

I just Love that someone thought a wedge was necessary, what for the heels that won't grow... snort. Sheesh.

I wish I could say this is an unusual sight.

Yeah for you Eq.

Regards,

[CookiePony]

Now, friends... besides the Borax soak, any new and fabulous thrush and fungus killing techniques? I can't get a boot on and I don't think he'll let me bag his feet so Cleantrax is out. Plus, I have found that until the hoof form improves, there is no point in doing that. I save it for the final hurrah!

I'm assuming you know about the Pete's Goo? 1/2 and 1/2 antibiotic ointment and athlete's foot cream?

When do we get to see the after photos? Will you post again in 2 weeks?

[JB]

Will you post again in 2 weeks?

I know where she lives, I'll go take pictures if she doesn't :D

[EqTrainer]

I'm assuming you know about the Pete's Goo? 1/2 and 1/2 antibiotic ointment and athlete's foot cream?

When do we get to see the after photos? Will you post again in 2 weeks?


Yup on the first, but I usually treat one or the other at a time. Why? I don't KNOW. Doh! I will mix up a batch tomorrow.. AFTER the Borox soak (I do love my Borax, now). Do you pack in it w/cotton and then wrap or just pack it?

I will try to do after photos in two weeks. He is living in the pea gravel run-in so I expect A LOT of sole exfoliation, which will help me decide where to go and how quickly to go there. I am really quite pleasantly surprised at how much better he feels, every hour. He is a good egg :)

[EqTrainer]

I know where she lives, I'll go take pictures if she doesn't :D

YOU are a very naughty girl! It's that sassy haircut, I just know it is :D

[ChocoMare]

Now, friends... besides the Borax soak, any new and fabulous thrush and fungus killing techniques?

One product: Solution 4 Feet from www.emeraldvalleyequine.com (http://www.emeraldvalleyequine.com) -- Probably feed some Formula 4 Feet too to help internally.

Oh and I concur: toes first. ;) Oy vey :o

[Triplicate]

The real question is what kind of shoes was he wearing before you pulled the shoes and how often was he shod ? It appears in your picture he was long overdue for shoeing.
If you trim too much when you first pull his shoes, he will be really sore. We never trim at all when we first pull the shoes.
Hot Venice Turpintine ( heat an open can on a coffee maker ) on the sole - use a cheap paint brush to apply, every couple days for a week.
Then, at the same time as the Venice, let his feet crack back on their own for a few days.
Sounds bad but it works !
Then have the farrier come and trim.
I would never consider trimming too much myself - if your farrier isn't doing a good enough job - Get a new Farrier - I do not think this is a DYIY Job.

[Lookout]

Having done a few such myself, I would do a little at a time but at frequent intervals. They do look really bad but there is a good foot under there that will appear rather quickly as soon as some correct trimming is done. It actually looks like someone tried to do something about the runaway toes about two trimmings ago because the angle is better at the top (at the new growth), plus the farrier tried shortening the toe by chopping it across, afraid to do more. Definitely more can be done on the toe, and some of the flaring too. I don't think the heels look that horrible; on the white foot (LF?) the inside heel (top of picture) should be brought back to the back of the frog, and any other ones too that aren't apparent on the pictures because of all the exfoliating sole. Just start with a general cleanup and work from there. Definitely would not do anything with any kinds of pads that would force the angles, into the opposite direction of what they've been doing; just let things progress along on their own and not force any kind of movement for now.

[EqTrainer]

The real question is what kind of shoes was he wearing before you pulled the shoes and how often was he shod ? It appears in your picture he was long overdue for shoeing.
If you trim too much when you first pull his shoes, he will be really sore. We never trim at all when we first pull the shoes.
Hot Venice Turpintine ( heat an open can on a coffee maker ) on the sole - use a cheap paint brush to apply, every couple days for a week.
Then, at the same time as the Venice, let his feet crack back on their own for a few days.
Sounds bad but it works !
Then have the farrier come and trim.
I would never consider trimming too much myself - if your farrier isn't doing a good enough job - Get a new Farrier - I do not think this is a DYIY Job.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

The horse was wearing NB shoes and a three degree wedge pad.

A farrier DID this to him. Those shoes were put on three weeks ago.

It was not MY farrier. MY farrier would never put shoes on a horse whose feet were in this bad of condition. He would refer them to the barefoot trimmer.. that's me :lol:

So I guess it DYIY or nothing :lol:

FWIW, his owner had tried all the available farriers in her area and this is what the horse got. If I can't do better than that, it would have to be because I have just had my arm amputated and couldn't hold a rasp.

[Auventera Two]

*Lovely* farrier work. :dead:

I actually got excited when I saw the feet because I can see the potential that's there. My hands just itch when I see feet like that. :D You'll have them looking great in no time. The feet look like they will come back fairly easy. Just trim often (I would do every 4 weeks), but you already know that. Good luck, and I'm sure you'll do a great job!

[Happy_Hooves]

I wish we could close pandora's box and have Gene Ovinceck sell NB shoes only to farriers who have passed NB certification.

My own personal pet peeve is folks trimming a foot with the popular tall crushed heel and long toe and then nailing on an oversized NB shoe. This method of shoeing in no way follows the NB guidelines for hoof prep/trimming or shoe application.

[Katy Watts]

The horse was wearing NB shoes and a three degree wedge pad.

A farrier DID this to him. Those shoes were put on three weeks ago.


Obviously, this farrier was not trained in proper applicaton of NB techniques. If the proper trim had been applied, NB shoes can and frequently do help correct LongToe/LowHeel syndrome. Or the barefoot trim that Gene does. Only this guy is clueless. If you post to horseshoes.com BB and ask for Patty Stiller, she is the best I know to help with this horse. If a REAL NB shoer had done this horse, I would bet the breakover would have been a HO bunch further back. I agree you can probably do better trimming if this is the best farrier she can find.

You can tell by the stretched frong that this whole foot is run forward. An set of lateral radiographs could give you a roadmap to make more drastic changes and shorten rehab time. It is important to get the heels trimmed to where the horn tubules are straight, otherwise they just keep running forward. THEN taking off the leverage of the long toe will allow more heel first landing, which will help develop the back of the foot to improve health of the smashed digital cushion. Its not that the heels are short, they are growing in the wrong direction. They are actually too long.
Katy

[EqTrainer]

It is going to be a little while before I can trim his heels to where the tubules are straight :lol: Don't worry Katy, I get it :winkgrin: and I've got it :winkgrin: he's not the first one I've had to fix that was like this. And actually, in this horses case, there IS no heel. There is no heel that has run forward, there is no crushed heel. There is simply nothing there. I KNOW usually it is too long. I think in his case, the wedge pad wore it off as grew (horizontally, as it were).

If I went after his heels now, I would cripple him. He's GOT to keep moving... I cannot risk making him more heel sore than he already is. No doubt his digital cushion has taken quite a thrashing. So I will only be able to approach the heels more as his foot health improves. For now, it's all about the toes and clearing up the bacterial and thrush infections.

What is amazing and shocking to me is that ANYBODY doesn't get it. It's not rocket science.

[grayarabs]

Good on you EQ. Waiting for more photos. Just to think - the person who shod that horse probably was certified - maybe not NB - but somewhere - ya think? Geez.
I think you are doing exactly the right thing. (not a NB fan in any way whatsoever).

[JB]

Obviously, this farrier was not trained in proper applicaton of NB techniques.
Obviously, this farrier was not trained in proper trimming, period ;)

[jack mac]

Obviously, this farrier was not trained in proper applicaton of NB techniques. If the proper trim had been applied, NB shoes can and frequently do help correct LongToe/LowHeel syndrome. Or the barefoot trim that Gene does. Only this guy is clueless. If you post to horseshoes.com BB and ask for Patty Stiller, she is the best I know to help with this horse. If a REAL NB shoer had done this horse, I would bet the breakover would have been a HO bunch further back. I agree you can probably do better trimming if this is the best farrier she can find.

You can tell by the stretched frong that this whole foot is run forward. An set of lateral radiographs could give you a roadmap to make more drastic changes and shorten rehab time. It is important to get the heels trimmed to where the horn tubules are straight, otherwise they just keep running forward. THEN taking off the leverage of the long toe will allow more heel first landing, which will help develop the back of the foot to improve health of the smashed digital cushion. Its not that the heels are short, they are growing in the wrong direction. They are actually too long.
Katyyour kidding right Katy, your NB protocol is what has coursed the problem ,you cant change pressures to the coronet & not expect it not to effect blood supply & horn growth, when are you NBers going to wake up NB is butchery at the highest level.

[CookiePony]

your kidding right Katy, your NB protocol is what has coursed the problem ,you cant change pressures to the coronet & not expect it not to effect blood supply & horn growth, when are you NBers going to wake up NB is butchery at the highest level.

:sleepy::sleepy::sleepy::sleepy::sleepy::sleepy:

[JB]

your kidding right Katy, your NB protocol is what has coursed the problem ,you cant change pressures to the coronet & not expect it not to effect blood supply & horn growth, when are you NBers going to wake up NB is butchery at the highest level.

Then please explain the many horses on this very board, never mind in the general population, who have been helped/saved by PROPER NB trimming and subsequent application of NB shoes. G'head, I dare ya ;)

[EqTrainer]

your kidding right Katy, your NB protocol is what has coursed the problem ,you cant change pressures to the coronet & not expect it not to effect blood supply & horn growth, when are you NBers going to wake up NB is butchery at the highest level.

Whose NB protocol are we talking about here?

[Lookout]

your kidding right Katy, your NB protocol is what has coursed the problem ,you cant change pressures to the coronet & not expect it not to effect blood supply & horn growth, when are you NBers going to wake up NB is butchery at the highest level.

Pkease don't take the bait. Anyone (obvious exception noted) can see this isn't following NB protocol or any other protocol. Trimming the toe would have been a start.

[matryoshka]

I haven't read the other posts, because I didn't want to be influenced by what was written. I see feet like these often enough not to have to think real hard about what to do. And it isn't only shod feet that can get like this. Before I even start, I'd make sure the client is willing to have the feet done as often as needed to get the feet healthy. If they are of the "trim them every 3 months whether they need it or not," I'd tell them I'm not the right trimmer for them.

After finding out what the owner does with the horse and watching him walk and trot, I'd back up the toe as far as I felt comfortable--it helps to trim back the elongated frog to get an idea of the true apex. Then walk him again to make sure he is still comfortable and moving well. Once I took as much toe off as I felt comfortable (it's impossible to tell how far that would be without seeing the foot during the trimming process), I'd use the true apex of the frog to figure out where the breakover should be. Then I'd apply a gentle rocker ahead of that point and round the toe so the breakover was smooth and the excess toe doesn't get in the way.

I'd only remove enough bar to take it down to the exfoliating sole. I'd only take off heel that appeared to be crushed or broken in. Roll the edges all the way around to help prevent cracking.

I'd schedule another appointment for about three weeks, evaluate the growth, and see what else can be done to help the process along. If you get the breakover right, you should see growth of the dorsal wall following the the HPA instead of stretched forward as it is. You might even get to be more aggressive with the heels the next time around. And when the horse can tolerate it, relieving the quarters can help the heels get a bit more vertical.

I do not dress the flare from the outside other than making a smooth roll. I was taught to dress the flare from 1/3 down, but that would thin the wall, and I can't bring myself to do that. I'd warn the owner that it won't look pretty for a while, but if they trust me, the hoof will make positive changes. I'd ask them to contact me if the horse showed any signs of soreness, and I'd question them closely during the next trim about how the horse responded to the previous trim. This lets me know whether I've been too aggressive or too conservative.

[Appassionato]

I would first address the run away toes and bad flaring as much as I can...take the wall right back to the white line and try to get his breakover back. I would level the heels but probably not take them down much on the first trim....just getting him out of the wedge pads might help with his heels also as they look pretty crushed. I would "feather" them also the way Paige does to help encourage the heels to grow downward instead of forward from the back.

He looks like a horse that would be sore if you were too aggressive though so without seeing him, I'd be cautious about attacking the flaring too much also as I've seen that cause soreness. Is he flat soled? He looks a bit that way but I wasn't sure how much of that is dead sole I'm seeing. I'd also not do much to his bars other than to cut away any folded over bar...they don't look that bad and leaving them will help support him. He'd be a good candidate for boots and a wedge pad insert under his frogs also to help get him landing heel first as quickly as possible.

Is this a horse you did? Unfortunately, I've seen a few as bad as him and one worse. The worse one I trimmed had much more contracted heels that that...his were about an inch apart, flat thin soles and worse flaring.

I'm not a trimmer nor a farrier, but this advice makes the most sense to me. When Bo's heels were crushed the worst (such as this time: http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2137170320097055594DNjRLU ), that's when we took off LOTS heel and applied wedges. Once enough heel was present, the wedges came off.

Good luck EqT!

[jack mac]

Then please explain the many horses on this very board, never mind in the general population, who have been helped/saved by PROPER NB trimming and subsequent application of NB shoes. G'head, I dare ya ;) [edit] i haven't seen any horses helped nor saved by NB, seen plenty crippled & put down from it though. maybe you don't get out & about as much as you should, as for wedging heels that's the quickest way"not for them heels to grow", have a good hard look at both this horse & flip flop Lady's horse feet the heels are contracted "der", wedging them will only serve to contract them more.

[jack mac]

Pkease don't take the bait. Anyone (obvious exception noted) can see this isn't following NB protocol or any other protocol. Trimming the toe would have been a start. see there you go again lookout, why don't you grow a spine & just come out & say what you really meant & that is don't feed the troll ;) Gutless

[Lookout]

Alright then. don't feed the troll. Uh.... whatever :rolleyes: . Yeah, that took guts.

[jack mac]

Alright then. don't feed the troll. Uh.... whatever :rolleyes: . Yeah, that took guts.(SMILE) (WINK) i luv you to OOOXXX LOL

[Daydream Believer]

I'm not a trimmer nor a farrier, but this advice makes the most sense to me. When Bo's heels were crushed the worst (such as this time: http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2137170320097055594DNjRLU ), that's when we took off LOTS heel and applied wedges. Once enough heel was present, the wedges came off.

Good luck EqT!

Appassionato...I want to clarify that I did not mean wedge pads like what the horse had on but inserts that go into the boots under the frogs to help with giving the pressure and cushioning to the frog and heels to help stimulate growth and widening in that area. It is not a firm pad like a typical wedge put under shoes but soft foam.

Here is a link to the comfort pads and you can see the ones with the extra frog support. It would depend entirely on how bad the foot is as to which one you'd use. Too much pressure there would only make the horse uncomfortable. I watched Pete Ramey try several combinations of pads on a number of horses and watched them move to get them landing comfortably heel first.

http://www.easycareinc.com/Other_Products/Comfort_Pads.aspx

[EqTrainer]

Got it ;) I will only feed my family and the horses!

Curry for the people last night, hot soaked beet pulp/alfalfa cubes and extra hay for the horses, everyone was happy.

[JB]

[edit] i haven't seen any horses helped nor saved by NB, seen plenty crippled & put down from it though. maybe you don't get out & about as much as you should, as for wedging heels that's the quickest way"not for them heels to grow", have a good hard look at both this horse & flip flop Lady's horse feet the heels are contracted "der", wedging them will only serve to contract them more.

Perhaps YOU don't get out as often as you should ;) I'm not going to play with you any more on this. You have obviously not taken the time to look for the threads that I mentioned on this board of people whose horses have been greatly helped with proper NB trimming and shoeing.

Now, I'm out of troll food, so I won't be back.

[Appassionato]

Appassionato...I want to clarify that I did not mean wedge pads like what the horse had on but inserts that go into the boots under the frogs to help with giving the pressure and cushioning to the frog and heels to help stimulate growth and widening in that area. It is not a firm pad like a typical wedge put under shoes but soft foam.

Here is a link to the comfort pads and you can see the ones with the extra frog support. It would depend entirely on how bad the foot is as to which one you'd use. Too much pressure there would only make the horse uncomfortable. I watched Pete Ramey try several combinations of pads on a number of horses and watched them move to get them landing comfortably heel first.

http://www.easycareinc.com/Other_Products/Comfort_Pads.aspx

No problem DB, I wasn't terribly specific either. i've seen those pads before and considered getting some for Bo some "spare tires," but got their flat pads instead. In any case what I didn't mention is that Jaye has never had Bo's sole covered with a pad without putting Equipak or Magic Cushion between the hoof and pad. I personally have gotten so used to this that if I saw a pad being applied with nothing put under it (on a thological hoof like founder, etc.), I wince and politely question why. I would be wincing because I would think the horse is uncomfortable. It doesn't mean that it is uncomfortable, but it's a hard feeling to shake, you know?

And to Jaye's defense (like he needs *my* defense), anyone that has watched Bo's progression has also seen Bo's heels decontract, as well as watched his feet do all kinds of crazy things. Bo may not have the best looking feet on the forum, but not every horse gets to beat death like Bo has either. So feel free to pick...I'm continually amazed every day that animal picks up and moves on. I can still learn things from that old horse. :p

[caballus]

Given the photos this is how I would trim:

http://www.barefoottrim.com/2008/forums/EqTrainerCOTH/eqtrainercoth.htm

[EqTrainer]

Thanks for the markup, Cab :)

[LMH]

What I would do based on the photos.

I agree with not touching the back of the foot...I would do my best to mark the 'imprint' of the coffin bone and bring a bevel back as far as comfy to within about 3/8 of the coffin bone. This might take several trims to get that close...but it is a goal.

I would treat the foot for fungus trying any or all of the following: CleanTrax or White Lightning for a jump start then daily spritzes of 50/50 water and colloidal silver OR a 16oz spray bottle of water with 30 or so drops of Grapefruit Seed Extract by GSE (google it).

I would then do daily walks or rides (depending on soundness) in some kind of foot with pads inside for at least 4-6 months.

voila...new and prettier healthier hoof by summer.:)

[caballus]

You can also use Australian Tea Tree Oil. (have you compared the GSE to the TTO, LMH? If so, which do you find more effective?)

Once the hooves are trimmed up and the horse is walked on firm ground (tarred road, drive) I find the hooves are quick to repair themselves and rid themselves of any fungus or bacteria. The increased mobility of the hoof (expansion and contraction) helps to increase the circulation in the hoof and lower limb but allows more O2 to get to the buggies ... so, its all good! :)

[Rick Burten]

Given the photos this is how I would trim:

http://www.barefoottrim.com/2008/forums/EqTrainerCOTH/eqtrainercoth.htm
Not that in theory I disagree, but unless you first know where the internal structures are, you won't know what you have to work with, and doing a trim such as this, could cause the horse to spring a leak or two.

[EqTrainer]

When our vet comes out to do teeth in February she will do digital rads of this horses feet.. and fetlocks, because they feel like he has lost some range of motion :(

I agree, this is one to go carefully with.

Oh! I keep forgetting to tell everyone, there is no boot in my collection that these feet will fit into :(

[caballus]

Not that in theory I disagree, but unless you first know where the internal structures are, you won't know what you have to work with, and doing a trim such as this, could cause the horse to spring a leak or two. Where would you expect to spring a leak? Beveling off the walls/bringing the toes back as I marked up on the solar merely got rid of most of the separations and flares? The toe was 'left untouched' in the solar photo cause it was obvious it would not be able to go back much farther without quicking the horse. One can see the outline of the apex of the frog and make a fair assessment as to where the distal border of the P3 is based on that and the start of the breakover point. Figuring approx. 3/4" beyond the apex towards the distal edge of the toe? *I* would use the nippers to bevel the toe quarters and get them back where they belong but wouldn't expect a neophyte to do so but would instruct to start a bevel on the distal edge of the water line to the edge of the wall to get those quarters shaped up and back. Wouldn't touch the sole or the heels at this point. Heels are too low to begin with and the soles will morph and change as the hoof gets more stimulation on firm ground so would want to wait on that. (Unless, of course, there is sole already flaking off and is easy to remove by simple peeling off.) Now the lateral shot tells a different story and yes, unless one knows the landmarks of the hoof one might be inclined to take off too much toe. Looks like alot in the photo that I marked but when beveled as described and then rolled off that will bring those toes back rather nicely and I've yet to spring a leak! *GRIN* I HATE leaks and usually err on the side of caution where the going gets iffy. :)

[irishcas]

I dunno Gwen:

I would not advise trimming that much without xrays. That is a HUGE removal of toe and you would have gone fairly high up on the front of the foot. What would be the rush to change the foot that fast.

If you compare how much you are showing to take off to the bottom of the hoof, you would put the toe at the edge of what looks like thin sole.

Despite all that exfoliating sole, I would assume (and you know what they say about that) that the foot is fairly thin, how could it not be with such a run forward toe?

I would then think this horse would be extremely sore. Lets not forget how much body changes that trim would cause too.

No offense meant, just thinking outloud :)

Regards,

[EqTrainer]

Looking at the foot in real life, I would not/could not take that much off anytime soon.

Pictures are always deceiving.

[caballus]

Remember ... you are not taking it off ... you are beveling from the water line out to the edge of the distal wall. Then you'll remove more flare and round it off from the topside. ... That's on the photo showing the lateral shot.

From the solar shot there's no toe taken back at all as you can see ... only the toe quarters.

Damn, its hard to explain in words! Yes, it looks like alot from the photo but when you get to doing it with just the beveling and the then removal of flare and rolling from the top you'll see a hoof that is very close to what you see. You'll not be taking the toe back any further than the water line ... *I* would go right into the white line but hate to advise others to do so cause that's when ya run into trouble! I've taken many toes back right to the inside of the white line with a good, strong bevel so the distal edge of the hoof WALL is not bearing weight but the weight is distributed back onto the white line/sole as meant to be. Ummmm, I'll try to find some photos to post as examples.


Of course there are times when doing this over a series of trims is more adviseable than doing it all at once and it may well be that if I were to actually see these hooves in real life that that is just what I'd do. If you feel, EqTrainer that this is a better way to go then by all means ... gotta listen to your gut and to the hooves and horse! Always 'listen to your gut' ...

[caballus]

ah ha .. found the ones I was thinking of.

Here's before trim: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/caballus/HPIM2515.jpg

and here's after trim: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/caballus/HPIM2519.jpg

and solar shot prior to trim: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/caballus/HPIM2523-1.jpg (sorry, for whatever reason I don't have the solar shot after trim!)

Looks like ALOT of toe was taken off but just beveling and removing the flare was enough to get a good working form of those hooves.

I'll see if I can find others to help explain the bevel more easily.

[EqTrainer]

I understand.. I just don't think I can go any further than I did (those were before shots) as I hit tattering white line very quickly. I did take off as much flare as I could.. the nails were in his toe pillars so they are blown apart, too...

I think in two weeks things will be much more clear.

[caballus]

Tattering white line is dead lamina. You want to get rid of that as much as you can. Here are very rough drawings that might help expain further:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/caballus/Image5a.jpg The blue lines show the beveling that goes back to the water line. You'll relieve the pressure on the hoofwall by doing this thus preventing further stretching and tearing. Realize that this photo was not taken square on the hoof, either, so the angles are off and the toe is probably not quite as long as it looks here. I can't adjust the angle of the photo, itself, so this has to suffice. :(

For the solar shot bevel:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/caballus/Image5b.jpg The blue, again, shows the beveling. The green shows the approx. placement of the P3 in the capsule as indicated as well as I can see in the photo retrospect to the apex and the natural breakover ... I would NOT rocker that breakover at all cause that would thin the soles/white line. You don't want that. Maybe later on down the road but I'd bet that when the hooves get into better shape they'll be just fine and form their own rocker. And you can see that I stopped the bevel before reaching the toe but did depict the toe quarters and getting them a bit better shape.

Is this less scary??? *GRIN*

[jack mac]

I wouldn't do whats being suggested at the moment, your horse will go lame the heels have been contracted the sole has turned fleshy that's why the toe has migrated , best thing to do in your case is to just leave the shoes off & leave the feet alone for 6 weeks to 8 weeks apart from a dressing of stockholm tar on the soles every 2nd or 3rd day,& feed more rufige less protein till the sole resolves it self then work on reducing the toe when the excess sole dies off & exfoliates :)

[JB]

I wouldn't do whats being suggested at the moment, your horse will go lame the heels have been contracted the sole has turned fleshy that's why the toe has migrated ,
So all along I've been taught and learned all wrong - contracted heels push the toe out. Whodathunk.

best thing to do in your case is to just leave the shoes off & leave the feet alone for 6 weeks to 8 weeks
I would LOVE to hear your reasoning on why *this* foot should be left barefoot and untrimmed for 8 more weeks :confused:

feed more rufige less protein till the sole resolves it self
Pray tell, what does protein have to do with this?

[matryoshka]

I understand.. I just don't think I can go any further than I did (those were before shots) as I hit tattering white line very quickly. I did take off as much flare as I could.. the nails were in his toe pillars so they are blown apart, too...

I think in two weeks things will be much more clear.
You are taking a sensible approach. It is better to be cautious than go whole hog into unknown territory. As you see more feet like these, you'll be able to make quicker decisions and have a better feel for how things will go. It's smart to see the horse again in two weeks. You'll know then whether you are on the right track.

[jack mac]

JB what you want to feed the troll know do you? well I'm sorry but I'm not hungry today & your not much of a meal anyway ;) PS have a nice day:)

[EqTrainer]

You are taking a sensible approach. It is better to be cautious than go whole hog into unknown territory. As you see more feet like these, you'll be able to make quicker decisions and have a better feel for how things will go. It's smart to see the horse again in two weeks. You'll know then whether you are on the right track.

Thanks :) the last one I had like this was a pony. She actually came around pretty quickly, thank goodness!

He lives here, so no issues with seeing him often :D sure does make things easier!

I posted these photos for two reasons. The first one is that I do indeed like to hear what other people think. The heel versus the toe debate has quieted down over the last few years; there was a time when "we" really focused on heels, I think maybe "we" don't realize it but there has been a slow evolution towards more focus on shorter toes/priority being placed on breakover and heels coming into shape as a result of this. Not to say I won't be rasping those heels :winkgrin:

The other reason is that I really truly hope that people whose horses feet currently look like this will see this and realize that it is not right! A lot of people have looked at this thread, only a handful have commented. If just one of those people realizes their horse needs help, that will have been enough. In the case of this horse, his owner *knew*, she could not find anyone to help her. You see what she was getting :cry: so, in the best interest of her horse, she sent him here to be fixed.

JB, my kids LOVE mac-n-cheese for lunch. Perhaps I should roast the troll for them?

[jack mac]

So much for your signature Eq trainer, you have a nice day to :)

[LMH]

Gwen I did try TTO and just speaking from my horses, I had far better luck with GSE-better even than colloidal silver.

I know others have had success with both TTO and silver, but in my little backyard experiment, the GSE wins.:)

Works nicely on scratches too!

[Appassionato]

Where would you expect to spring a leak? Beveling off the walls/bringing the toes back as I marked up on the solar merely got rid of most of the separations and flares? The toe was 'left untouched' in the solar photo cause it was obvious it would not be able to go back much farther without quicking the horse. One can see the outline of the apex of the frog and make a fair assessment as to where the distal border of the P3 is based on that and the start of the breakover point. Figuring approx. 3/4" beyond the apex towards the distal edge of the toe? *I* would use the nippers to bevel the toe quarters and get them back where they belong but wouldn't expect a neophyte to do so but would instruct to start a bevel on the distal edge of the water line to the edge of the wall to get those quarters shaped up and back. Wouldn't touch the sole or the heels at this point. Heels are too low to begin with and the soles will morph and change as the hoof gets more stimulation on firm ground so would want to wait on that. (Unless, of course, there is sole already flaking off and is easy to remove by simple peeling off.) Now the lateral shot tells a different story and yes, unless one knows the landmarks of the hoof one might be inclined to take off too much toe. Looks like alot in the photo that I marked but when beveled as described and then rolled off that will bring those toes back rather nicely and I've yet to spring a leak! *GRIN* I HATE leaks and usually err on the side of caution where the going gets iffy. :)

I'm certainly not Rick, but I'd like to share *my* thoughts from my experience with Bo (and many here did ask why Jaye didn't take Bo's dorsal toes back further earlier on), well we couldn't! We'd hit pin pricks of blood as he'd rasp along. Jaye was kinda surprised at how much blood supply there was that far forward in Bo's hooves (THAT far dorsally, if that makes sense...head/chest cold! Sorry!). While I do not understand the biological mechanism of how this happens, this is why I agreed with DB about a wedge and fil;ling the rear portion of the hoof: when Jaye was able to make the rear portion of the hoof more concave/healthier, then he could safely take off more toe dorsally. Again, I'm not one to tell others how to trim/shoe, I just thought I'd throw my thoughts out there and maybe someone can intelligently/mechanically explain what I witnessed with Bo's hooves and the blood supply that "corrected itself." I thought it was pretty cool stuff and had to see it to believe it! :winkgrin:

[Appassionato]

The other reason is that I really truly hope that people whose horses feet currently look like this will see this and realize that it is not right! A lot of people have looked at this thread, only a handful have commented. If just one of those people realizes their horse needs help, that will have been enough. In the case of this horse, his owner *knew*, she could not find anyone to help her. You see what she was getting :cry: so, in the best interest of her horse, she sent him here to be fixed.

I feel your client's pain. Often I'm asked in my area who *I* trust to shoe and my answer is, "No one." And yes, I've looked. It's sad.

[caballus]

EqTrainer ... would it be possible to get CLEAN solar shots of these hooves ... right now, as is? Before being trimmed again? As clean as possible ... soak and scrub so the water line is visible, white line is visible and any dirt can be scrubbed away? And then, too, if you could get a shot that is square on laterally ... ??? Don't mean to be a pain in the arse but I'd really like to see those if its not too much trouble?

[EqTrainer]

Cab, I do apologize for how bad the pics are. I had four more horses to trim that day ;)

And now we are barely above freezing during the day; I know to a lot of you that is no biggee but we are not used to it :lol: but I am avoiding water like the plague. But I will try!

Appassionato (and may I ask, why is it not Appassionat*a*? I have always wondered!) - my old farrier described the blood in the long toe as the equivalent of the difference between someone who bites their nails and someone who does not - the nail bed has grown forward in the person who does not, has been pushed back in the person who does. I intend to bite his nails, frequently ;) Simplistic explanation but very helpful IMO.

[Rick Burten]

Where would you expect to spring a leak?
http://www.barefoottrim.com/2008/forums/EqTrainerCOTH/eqtrainercoth.htm
Based on your blue line, potentially, at the sole-wall junction.
Beveling off the walls/bringing the toes back as I marked up on the solar merely got rid of most of the separations and flares?
Your lateral view line drawing is at odds with your solar mark-up.
One can see the outline of the apex of the frog and make a fair assessment as to where the distal border of the P3 is based on that and the start of the breakover point.
Considering that the frog appears stretched, until you know, to a reasonable certainty, where the true apex of the frog is, trimming the foot is an adventure.
Figuring approx. 3/4" beyond the apex towards the distal edge of the toe?
I use a measurement of 1" from the true apex of the frog, then add 1/4 inch to locate the position I want breakover to occur. For feet smaller tha 00 I reduce those numbers proportionally, and for feet larger than 2, I increase the numbers proportionally. "Numbers" here-in referring to the measurment from the true apex of the frog.
Remember ... you are not taking it off ... you are beveling from the water line out to the edge of the distal wall.
Ummm, regardless of how it is accomplished, you are indeed 'taking it off". "Beveling" requires substance removal, right?
You'll not be taking the toe back any further than the water line ... *I* would go right into the white line but hate to advise others to do so cause that's when ya run into trouble!
But considering how run out the foot is, is this going to be adequate? And, if that white line is pulled forward, then it is no longer a reliable marker for determining where to start/finish the bevel.

[Pippigirl]

Where would you expect to spring a leak? Beveling off the walls/bringing the toes back as I marked up on the solar merely got rid of most of the separations and flares? The toe was 'left untouched' in the solar photo cause it was obvious it would not be able to go back much farther without quicking the horse. One can see the outline of the apex of the frog and make a fair assessment as to where the distal border of the P3 is based on that and the start of the breakover point. Figuring approx. 3/4" beyond the apex towards the distal edge of the toe? *I* would use the nippers to bevel the toe quarters and get them back where they belong but wouldn't expect a neophyte to do so but would instruct to start a bevel on the distal edge of the water line to the edge of the wall to get those quarters shaped up and back. Wouldn't touch the sole or the heels at this point. Heels are too low to begin with and the soles will morph and change as the hoof gets more stimulation on firm ground so would want to wait on that. (Unless, of course, there is sole already flaking off and is easy to remove by simple peeling off.) Now the lateral shot tells a different story and yes, unless one knows the landmarks of the hoof one might be inclined to take off too much toe. Looks like alot in the photo that I marked but when beveled as described and then rolled off that will bring those toes back rather nicely and I've yet to spring a leak! *GRIN* I HATE leaks and usually err on the side of caution where the going gets iffy. :)

When I look at the original pics, based on the solar and lateral view it looks like everything is stretched forward. Heels, apex and toe. The bars are laid over and overgrown down the frog. I would carefully trim the bars back (not go to town and cut 'them right out'), lightly rasp the heels to see clearly where the heel triangle is at (not trying to lower the heels), find the true apex of the frog, trim the stretch frog as needed and as Rick (hoofrx1) writes, use that to determine where the toe should be.

Just my thoughts.

It would be interesting to see x-rays of the feet to see what state the coffin bone is in and the surrounding structures as well.

[matryoshka]

I use a measurement of 1" from the true apex of the frog, then add 1/4 inch to locate the position I want breakover to occur. For feet smaller tha 00 I reduce those numbers proportionally, and for feet larger than 2, I increase the numbers proportionally. "Numbers" here-in referring to the measurment from the true apex of the frog.This is pretty much the measure I use when taking toes back. On stretched forward feet like these, one would have to do it gradually using the trimmed frog as a starting point. Then frequent visits to keep bringing back the toe as the hoof grows. We can't carve good feet--the horse has to grow it. The best we can do with trimming alone is set up the mechanics for the horse to grow a healthy foot.

[EqTrainer]

Same measurement I use for gathering data, as it were.

Update on the horse: He is doing well, seems to be feeling better each day. Sole is exfoliating nicely and I think I will trim his bars a wee (very wee!) bit tomorrow when it is above freezing and not raining.

[jack mac]

Based on your blue line, potentially, at the sole-wall junction.

Your lateral view line drawing is at odds with your solar mark-up.

Considering that the frog appears stretched, until you know, to a reasonable certainty, where the true apex of the frog is, trimming the foot is an adventure.

I use a measurement of 1" from the true apex of the frog, then add 1/4 inch to locate the position I want breakover to occur. For feet smaller tha 00 I reduce those numbers proportionally, and for feet larger than 2, I increase the numbers proportionally. "Numbers" here-in referring to the measurment from the true apex of the frog.

Ummm, regardless of how it is accomplished, you are indeed 'taking it off". "Beveling" requires substance removal, right?

But considering how run out the foot is, is this going to be adequate? And, if that white line is pulled forward, then it is no longer a reliable marker for determining where to start/finish the bevel.Hey Rick had a look at your shoeing pic's on the farriers forum :sadsmile:, do you really think you should be giving advice ? because i think you need to be getting some your self " big time", looking forward to getting back on there soon to talk about what you shouldn't do to a horses hoof, cant wait, only this time, i wont give you the slightest opportunity to have me band :)PS bought my self a new camera ;)

[caballus]

Based on your blue line, potentially, at the sole-wall junction.

Your lateral view line drawing is at odds with your solar mark-up. Well, shoot, Rick ... its a sketch to give the "idea" ... not a blueprint.

Considering that the frog appears stretched, until you know, to a reasonable certainty, where the true apex of the frog is, trimming the foot is an adventure. and when one trims back the frog and takes a look at the sole/apex juncture one can get a pretty reasonable idea of just where that true apex is, right?

I use a measurement of 1" from the true apex of the frog, then add 1/4 inch to locate the position I want breakover to occur. For feet smaller tha 00 I reduce those numbers proportionally, and for feet larger than 2, I increase the numbers proportionally. "Numbers" here-in referring to the measurment from the true apex of the frog. Yep, I use 3/4 - or so depending on the hoof. One should be able to feel the natural breakover that is *usually* present. Just hafta know for what your looking/feeling.

Ummm, regardless of how it is accomplished, you are indeed 'taking it off". "Beveling" requires substance removal, right? yes, of course ... but not thinning the sole at all and not just doing a 90* 'bring the toe back' thing.

But considering how run out the foot is, is this going to be adequate? And, if that white line is pulled forward, then it is no longer a reliable marker for determining where to start/finish the bevel. But telling someone on the internet to trim back into the white line is asking for trouble. So, rather do a little bit at a time using the water line as a guide and trimming frequently than trying to do it all at once. *I*, yes, will do what Marjorie Smith calls the "White Line Strategy" www.barefoothorse.com but don't recommend that those who are not trimming frequently and those who don't have alot of hooves under their belt work into the white line. so that's why I said what I did.

[Appassionato]

Cab, I do apologize for how bad the pics are. I had four more horses to trim that day ;)

And now we are barely above freezing during the day; I know to a lot of you that is no biggee but we are not used to it :lol: but I am avoiding water like the plague. But I will try!

Appassionato (and may I ask, why is it not Appassionat*a*? I have always wondered!) - my old farrier described the blood in the long toe as the equivalent of the difference between someone who bites their nails and someone who does not - the nail bed has grown forward in the person who does not, has been pushed back in the person who does. I intend to bite his nails, frequently ;) Simplistic explanation but very helpful IMO.

Hey, I've been freezing down here too! I hear ya!

To answer your question, Bo is the real bearer of the name "Appassionato." He is named after Beethoven's piano sonata Appassionata, but since he's male the "a" is changed to "o" (Italian rules?)...or so I was told. :winkgrin:

The biting fingernails thing, yes! Good analogy!

[Rick Burten]

Hey Rick had a look at your shoeing pic's on the farriers forum :sadsmile:, do you really think you should be giving advice ?
Absolutely.
because i think you need to be getting some your self " big time",
Your thoughts are as inconsequential as the sound of a butterfly's wings beating the air far in the distance and have the same effect.
looking forward to getting back on there soon to talk about what you shouldn't do to a horses hoof, cant wait,
You're a minority of one.
only this time, i wont give you the slightest opportunity to have me band
Jack, your paranoia is showing. I had nothing to do with getting you banned from horseshoes.com. That was your own doing and the responsibility lies solely with you. And, if your posts on these forums are an indication of how you intend to conduct yourself at horseshoes.com when your vacation ends, then I think I can say with some certainty that your sojourn at horseshoes.com will be quite brief.

And for the record, the site owner is the only one who can ban you(and I am not that individual). And he did so for many reasons, not the least of which was the onslaught of complaints by farriers(myself excepted) and owners alike who felt you not only detracted and denigrated the purpose and intent of horseshoes.com, but did so in a manner that brought disrepute to not only the website, but everyone there, yourself included.

And for the record Jack, if the decision were mine and mine alone, you'd never be allowed back at horseshoes.com. Never! But I don't get to make that decision, which is lucky for you.

PS bought my self a new camera ;)
Question is, are you intelligent enough to learn how to use it properly?

[Rick Burten]

Well, shoot, Rick ... its a sketch to give the "idea" ... not a blueprint.
Unfotunately, some will not realize that.

and when one trims back the frog and takes a look at the sole/apex juncture one can get a pretty reasonable idea of just where that true apex is, right?
Yes, with the caveat that it should be, initially, only the frog material at the apex that is carefully removed to find the true apex of the frog.
Yep, I use 3/4 - or so depending on the hoof. One should be able to feel the natural breakover that is *usually* present. Just hafta know for what your looking/feeling.
Sounds like you've been reading and applying Natural Balance protocols. :)
But telling someone on the internet to trim back into the white line is asking for trouble.
Though I'm in basic agreement with you, the caveat is, "It Depends". Which is why I try not to give advise on trimming or shoeing on their own, to amateurs, neophytes, Fluff Bunnies, those suffering from TSS(Terminal Stable Stupidity) or other recruits of the Sweetness and Light Brigade. Its difficult enough when the discourse is with professionals or those who think they are professionals.

[caballus]

Though I'm in basic agreement with you, the caveat is, "It Depends". Absolutely - As always when working with horses. Not enough follow the caveat emptor warning. Perhaps when posting information on any topic one should add the "Caveat emptor" disclaimer?

[matryoshka]

Even so, it will take a while to get to the ideal hoof shape for this horse whose hoof is so run forward. We use guidelines and hopefully just remove enough foot to promote good growth and good movement while keeping the horse comfortable. As trimmers, we can't put back what we've removed. It takes a while to be able to see and understand what the hoof is showing us. Heck, sometimes I go by how the foot feels under the knife or in the nippers. That's what I mean by going back "as far as I am comfortable." There is an element of judgement that just can't be communicated through pictures and words on the screen.

If I were trimming those feet, I might well trim into the white line, depending on what it looked and felt like. But I wouldn't tell anybody else to do that unless I were looking over their shoulder as they trimmed.

Cab, the mods you made to the side view look like a good goal, but it would be tough to get there in a single trim. If one tried to get there in a single day, they'd likely have a lame horse. I'm guessing you know that, but it is nice to say it for the people who aren't as familiar with trimming and allowing improvements to take time.

[caballus]

While the side shots look extreme I think if one were to follow the solar shot first with the beveling and then turn the hoof over and address the flares and roll one would be surprised to see how close it will look to what is sketched out in the side shot. Again, that shot is not square on so it LOOKS like alot of toe removal is being suggested but once again, when coupled with the solar "trim" and then the removal of flaring and rolling the walls the finished hoof will be very surprisingly close. See my photo illustration in one of my previous posts. those toes were waaaaaaaay long and stretched. The trim shot was the first trim. No leaks, no tenderness or lameness. Horse was fine. (and 8 months Pg., too!) Personally, I don't think the OP's hooves (or, horse's hooves! *grin*) look to be all that horrific. They should clean up very nicely. But, that's MO and I don't expect everyone to agree! *GRIN*

[EqTrainer]

Absolutely - As always when working with horses. Not enough follow the caveat emptor warning. Perhaps when posting information on any topic one should add the "Caveat emptor" disclaimer?

Well, yes, we should.. but IMO it's a shame that we have to. It alludes to the fact that common sense is practiced too infrequently and that we always have to be guarded. So often I start to comment on a training issue and then realize I have to add a disclaimer here.. a comment there.. a safety reminder here.. just to be PC.

[caballus]

teehee ... done.

[Pippigirl]

Well, yes, we should.. but IMO it's a shame that we have to. It alludes to the fact that common sense is practiced too infrequently and that we always have to be guarded. So often I start to comment on a training issue and then realize I have to add a disclaimer here.. a comment there.. a safety reminder here.. just to be PC.

Hrm...well if it's a shame perhaps these threads shouldn't be here. That way you don't have to worry about being PC or give advice to "amateurs, neophytes, Fluff Bunnies, those suffering from TSS(Terminal Stable Stupidity) or other recruits of the Sweetness and Light Brigade." and thus avoid communication with "professionals or those who think they are professionals."

[EqTrainer]

Hrm...well if it's a shame perhaps these threads shouldn't be here. That way you don't have to worry about being PC or give advice to "amateurs, neophytes, Fluff Bunnies, those suffering from TSS(Terminal Stable Stupidity) or other recruits of the Sweetness and Light Brigade." and thus avoid communication with "professionals or those who think they are professionals."

I think maybe you missed my point. To speak plainly, I get tired of being in CYA mode. Particularly about training... there is the saddle fit, the teeth, the feet, the skeletal issues, the muscular issues, the mental issues.. by the time I CYA on all these subjects, I'm out of energy to continue. Yet if you MISS one, you can BET someone is going to come after you because "maybe the horses saddle doesn't fit"! It gets tiresome, particularly for someone who lives by making sure that all those things have been addressed prior to swinging my leg over the horse.

And now that I'm out of CYA mode, I'll say again that I don't think trimming is rocket science. Maybe I feel that way because when I took up the rasp I had been a student of the hoof for close to 25 years... but honestly, I don't think that's it. I think that like in most things, there is a group of people who need to feel special and important and like they are the only ones who can do this special, important "thing", whatever that thing may be. I think you could take any person of average intelligence, teach them about hoof form and function, apprentice them w/a good trimmer for a few months and they'd be at least be *safe and doing no harm*. Now.. this does lead me to the conclusion that there are many individuals of *below* average intelligence who are trimming.. and certainly *shoeing* :lol: as evidenced by the shoes the horse in question was wearing.

I also acknowledge that there are some individuals, in every field, who are truly gifted and capable of performing the given job much better than their peers.

A while back on this thread I posted my reasons for starting the thread and putting up pictures. The bottom line is, everyone who is posting here has fixed feet like this, myself included. It's no mystery what this horse needs done for him, it is self-evident. What is fun and what is helpful for other people is the discussion. I sincerely hope that at least ONE person out there, whose horses feet look like this, opens this thread and realizes OMG! MY HORSE IS BEING HOOF BUTCHERED! And FWIW, I had to get permission from his owner to do this, and she agreed, for the same reason. It was certainly not to get anyone's panties in a wad.

[grayarabs]

EqT - interesting case and thanks for sharing. Hope to be able to follow the progress.
I agree it would be nice if you could rasp once or twice over the heels and other parts of the wall etc to try to see what is there. Not for now to lower/back up - just see if anything "appears" for reference. I have noted as I am sure others have - when taking photos - or for clarification looking at the hoof in hand - that a couple of rasp swipes - for photos - makes things easier to see - ie whole hoof not brown - the rasp marks lighten things up.
We can all learn so much from EqT is doing - would be nice to see more of this - highly educational. Anyone have other cases to offer/follow?

[matryoshka]

I'll see if my friend who is trimming a horse with fused fetlocks will share her pics. Those toes were waaaaay out there, forcing the horse to pull his knees to the side to accomplish breakover. While we working, she misunderstood something I said and trimmed one hoof too short. The horse was okay, but I'd have liked a little more hoof left there. That's why I'm paranoid about saying how much I'd take off on the internet: miscommunication can happen in person between two people who know each other. I can only imagine how things can get misconstrued here.

Anyway, it would be a cool case to share if she's willing.

[EqTrainer]

[quote=grayarabs;2957835]EqT - interesting case and thanks for sharing. Hope to be able to follow the progress.
I agree it would be nice if you could rasp once or twice over the heels and other parts of the wall etc to try to see what is there. Not for now to lower/back up - just see if anything "appears" for reference. I have noted as I am sure others have - when taking photos - or for clarification looking at the hoof in hand - that a couple of rasp swipes - for photos - makes things easier to see - ie whole hoof not brown - the rasp marks lighten things up.
We can all learn so much from EqT is doing - would be nice to see more of this - highly educational. Anyone have other cases to offer/follow?

/quote]

I did go over his heels and got to see what I thought I would.. nothing at all that resembled a heel buttress. I had a pony once like this so I was not surprised. I think in a few weeks he will "have one". Yes, I know it's there somewhere :lol: but it's definately NOT anywhere that I should be getting to anytime soon.

Yup, the pictures were not good but it was a very quick job. The next ones I will set aside time to do it. It was just an opportunity I did not want to miss!

I hope Matry can start a new thread with her friends horses pics.. that would be interesting, particularly to me, as I trim a horse whose fetlocks are fused. Then again, he has - unlike this horse in the pics here - a very uncooperative owner who will not let me trim him frequently enough. I know I should quit but his previous trimmer, Peanut, left him w/a 4 1/2 inch toe. Even if I only see him every 2 1/2 months, I can still keep it shorter than that :sadsmile:

[grayarabs]

EqT - I for one would like to see photos of the hoof as it is now - after a few swipes with the rasp - it the rasped part would be lighter in contrast to rest of hoof. I have never seen what you are describing - no heel - and I believe you. Would love to see it - what the heck is going on the back of that hoof. Any chance for more photos - soon???!!!
Focusing on the "no heel" area???!!! So interesting.

[Rick Burten]

[quote=grayarabs;2957835]
I did go over his heels and got to see what I thought I would.. nothing at all that resembled a heel buttress. ...
I went back and looked at those photos from the first post. In the one solar pic, I was able to pick out the butress. So, I am curious as to why you think there is no buttress discernible? I wish I was computer literate enough to draw lines and circles and the like, but I'm not. :(

For the record, I'm just interested in a discussion, and I'm not looking for a fight. :)

[EqTrainer]

I will try to look at them (the feet) with a fresh eye tomorrow. What I thoughtI I was seeing was the tubules simply bent under and part of it worn away in front of where the heel buttress would be. Meaning that if I swipe a little more, I may find one. But then I will put more weight onto the back of his foot, which I am reluctant to do at this time.

The pony I had that was like this, I trimmed w/my farrier. He told me to lay the rasp down across her heel area and rasp until I began to recognize structures :lol: I had to stop, I would have been in China (wayyyy below her frog) before I got to a clean heel buttress. It was very interesting.

So I will see what I can see tomorrow and maybe do more pics then if I have time and can clean his feet up. He has exfoliated a *tremendous* amount of sole :)

Editing to add that I looked back at the pics and I think the fact that I was scraping at his bars to see if they would pop out/flake off DO SOMETHING makes that side of his foot look deceptive. Bad pics.

[Rick Burten]

I will try to look at them (the feet) with a fresh eye tomorrow. What I thoughtI I was seeing was the tubules simply bent under and part of it worn away in front of where the heel buttress would be.
Yes, that is basically what I see. But the buttress is there, you just have to find it.
Meaning that if I swipe a little more, I may find one. But then I will put more weight onto the back of his foot, which I am reluctant to do at this time.
Why?

[EqTrainer]

Yes, that is basically what I see. But the buttress is there, you just have to find it.

Why?

I have a couple of reasons, which I hope will begin to resolve soon and give me more concrete ideas about what is going on w/this horse.

He is reluctant to weight the back of his foot right now. When the shoes were on, he was landing toe first. When the shoes came off, he was in a fair amount of pain and landing flat. Within 24 hours he began to put more weight on the back of his foot BUT he still clearly favors it, to the point of rocking onto his toe to eat hay.

As you see - a horrible thrush/fungal infection in his foot. It's the kind where it takes 3 full size real cotton balls to pack the sulcus of the frog. It is clearly painful. This could be the reason he is not wanting to weight the back of his foot.

When I look at his hoof structure, I see a foot (and I have old rads of this horse) that most likely has a weak digital cushion and possibly some navicular issues.

I would like to wait until his frog/soft tissues are in a little better working order before I force more weight onto the back of his foot. I would like to know, when I do it, if he becomes more unsound, that it was not the thrush and fungus. As it stands, I cannot lower his heels to the level of his frog, as his frog is nonexistant (I could use the laughing icon, but it's not funny so I won't). The collateral groove is very shallow.

He will be getting new digital rads in February and we will trim him on the spot if there are changes that can be made at that point. Of course he will be retrimmed before then, I just wanted to mention that. He has had his shoes off for 5 days.

[Lookout]

EqT, if you like I can email a marked up sole showing where it looks like the heel buttresses are. On the outside they'll be found with minimal trimming, the inside one is a lot less apparent and that's probably the one giving you the issue. I don't htink he'd be sore if you trimmed lightly here. His heels are so far forward now and have so far to go back that moving them back should make him immediately more comfortable. (I can't post pictures and I don't have your email).

[Lookout]

He is reluctant to weight the back of his foot right now. When the shoes were on, he was landing toe first. When the shoes came off, he was in a fair amount of pain and landing flat. Within 24 hours he began to put more weight on the back of his foot BUT he still clearly favors it, to the point of rocking onto his toe to eat hay.

When I look at his hoof structure, I see a foot (and I have old rads of this horse) that most likely has a weak digital cushion and possibly some navicular issues.


Having taken a much closer look at the solar shot it reveals why he wouldn't want to weight the back of his hoof and displaying possible navicular symptoms. The buttresses are so far forward underneath the foot that they are painful to step on. It would be akin to you having a stilletto heel in the middle of your foot under the arch and trying to step onto that. Such long/underrun heels are one common symptom of apparent navicular problems. You could bring them back without lowering them too much (just kind of shave them back) and he will probably start weighting the back of his feet right away.

As to the rocket science aspect of hoof trimming, some intelligence is required but there are people that will never be able to do it. It requires the ability to visualize objects three-dimensionally and some people just can't think that way.

[EqTrainer]

[quote=Lookout;2960909]Having taken a much closer look at the solar shot it reveals why he wouldn't want to weight the back of his hoof and displaying possible navicular symptoms. The buttresses are so far forward underneath the foot that they are painful to step on. It would be akin to you having a stilletto heel in the middle of your foot under the arch and trying to step onto that. Such long/underrun heels are one common symptom of apparent navicular problems. You could bring them back without lowering them too much (just kind of shave them back) and he will probably start weighting the back of his feet right away.

I got a few minutes today (and a holder!) and was able to run the rasp over his "heels" a little bit more today. The tubules are so grown forward that even when I took them down to sole level, there is no true heel buttress. There is just a forced (thru having been freshly trimmed) V at the back where the heel buttress *should* be. One foot has what appears to be perhaps a true heel buttress - about an inch and a half forward (towards the toe) of the back of his "heel".

Too cold today to involve water so I will try to do pics over the weekend. I was able to take some more toe off - back to the edge of the sole, as he has exfoliated enough to either show a toe callous beginning or he has developed the beginnings of one.

He was sounder when he walked off so I have to believe I am heading in the right direction.. it will be interesting to see how much more he has to grow to find a true heel buttress. Wherever it may be, I cannot go any further today without creating a negative coffin bone plane. I am wondering if he might be a candidate to have his heels completely floated in a month or two (when these tubules have grown down enough and been removed) and shod that way so that they can finally grow DOWN.

I can't wait to see new rads.

As to the rocket science aspect of hoof trimming, some intelligence is required but there are people that will never be able to do it. It requires the ability to visualize objects three-dimensionally and some people just can't think that way.

That is true.

A2 - no, I do not believe this horse is foundered in the sense of having been laminitic.. I do believe he may be mechanically rotated.

[Rick Burten]

[B][I]I got a few minutes today (and a holder!) and was able to run the rasp over his "heels" a little bit more today. The tubules are so grown forward that even when I took them down to sole level, there is no true heel buttress.
So long as those horn tubules are bent forward, they will continue to follow that line of growth.

I think that this would be a good example of why, if one has the availability of shoes, pads, and other mechanical frog/sole support, one can more quickly and effectively deal with the situation.

[eruss]

Heels are so far forward its not surprising heel pain is present. And besides removing some dish and flare imo there's not much sole depth for trimming the toe.

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s86/fairweatherforge/barefoot%20trimming/A9.jpg

[eruss]

Does this horse have upright pasterns? From the pics it looks as if he does. If he does, I would bet the heels will grow but grow forward (classic underrun heels). The horse will consistently have a broken back axis. So the farrier may have had a good theory, by trying to allign the axis. Just the application was incorrect.

[EqTrainer]

So long as those horn tubules are bent forward, they will continue to follow that line of growth.

I think that this would be a good example of why, if one has the availability of shoes, pads, and other mechanical frog/sole support, one can more quickly and effectively deal with the situation.

Unfortunately there is no one locally who is able to do that type of work. My goal is to get him solid enough that a modestly talented farrier can shoe him without issues.

Would you float his heels off the shoe? What other ideas do you have for a faster correction?

[EqTrainer]

Does this horse have upright pasterns? From the pics it looks as if he does. If he does, I would bet the heels will grow but grow forward (classic underrun heels). The horse will consistently have a broken back axis. So the farrier may have had a good theory, by trying to allign the axis. Just the application was incorrect.

He actually does not, but stands with his weight off his heel which gives him the illusion that he is straight.

He is at that stage where judging his conformation is like judging that of jello.

[vanheimrhorses]

what heaven a nice big giant foot, so much better than nothing to work with, i would just trim him normal and shoe him proper for his type of work and conformation. your lucky he has big wide open sound looking hooves

[EqTrainer]

More pics from todays trim

[Daydream Believer]

I can see an improvement already! I think his heels have spread a bit from your first pics and I see you found some heels to trim a bit! Good Job!

[Lookout]

Those are great pics! You do have heel buttresses, they are just obscured by the bruising and inflammation but indeed they are there. The right side looks great for now. The left side is a great picture showing the contrast between the freshly rasped and older parts. Right where those two meet, the hoof horn (bar or sole, hard to tell), is the highest part of the foot and he is landing on that point. It needs to be smoothed out so the heel point (further back) is the highest point thus weightbearing. If you do that, he will be immediately and noticeably more comfortable.
The foot looks great from the side too with the attention to the toe. He does need to grow toe height though and then that pastern angle will become a lot more correct.

[EqTrainer]

Tee hee, I was trying to get that with the rasp as my knifes (why does that word look so strange?!!) are being professionally sharpened. I will try harder tomorrow as I agree, it needs to come down.

[JB]

Knives :D

[EqTrainer]

Knives :D

Well that explains my discomfort with how that looked..

what do YOU think about the feet?

[JB]

I think there's a nice foot just begging to come out :)

It's very awesome to see some semblance of hoof parts there :) Just how cool was it to start rasping? :D

[matryoshka]

Try using a loop knife. You can get much more torque since the blade is shorter. Plus, you can use it right or left handed. I got rid of my other knives once I started with a loop knife. It isn't as handy for getting rid of junky pieces of frog, but it's worth it to me to have one knife. :yes:

Why aren't you sharpening your own knives? A diamond sharperner is really handy. You don't even have to wet it for sharpening if you carry around one of those white erasers to clean it with.

I just ordered a set of "bud nippers". They are compound nippers for cutting through really tough walls. I trim one draft whose feet are maybe 9 inches across, and I have to open the jaws so wide that I can barely close my hands to nip the wall. And this is with big nippers.

[Auventera Two]

Yay, good for you Eq Trainer! :D Watch the frogs and toe plane. I'll second the loop knife suggestion. Nothing beats it for getting into the sulculs of the frog and cleaning out the ragged stuff. Also, I use a dropped blade knife that is MUCH easier to work with that a flat blade. I can't believe how much I struggled with regular knives prior to the loop and dropped blade. It's almost embarassing. LOL. Make sure you're addressing the toe plane and don't let it get too high. Be careful to get nice flat planes. That doesn't mean a "flat foot" but keep your toe plane on level with your heel plane, keep the quarters flat and don't dip or scoop. You want nice flat planes with a distinct bevel. Heel purchase should be totally flat, not rocked, dipped, or lumpy. Like the heel of your own shoe. Totally flat so your foot isn't rolling.

The feet will get there, the toe length looks much better already! :yes: Good job and good luck on your journey.

[EqTrainer]

I suck at knife sharpening. They just get a little bit duller and duller even tho' I am sharpening them until... I drop them off at my lovely neighborhood knife sharpening man! Then we begin the cycle all over again.

I wondered about the loops. It's always fun to get a new tool :D I bought new nippers the other day and I am really in love with them!

[Daydream Believer]

Where is a good place to get a loop knife? I hate my regular hoof knife also. I have sharpened it but I cannot seem to get it sharp enough to work on frogs well.

Best tool I ever bought was a small pair of GE nippers that I can use one handed if I have to. So nice to use on wiggling foals or youngsters.

[Auventera Two]

Here!
http://www.centaurforge.com/products.asp?dept=92

They're in WI so they deliver to me the next day for the regular shipping fees! :D But since you're in ten buck three, I'm not sure about shipping.

I figured out (the hard way of course) that the only way to keep a sharp edge on a knife is to buy a really expensive, really really high quality knife. The cheaper blades don't hold the edge. I only sharpen my knives every 5 trims or so. I used to do it after every horse. The dropped blade I use is KC's own brand - it's a version of The Knife. I think he changed the blade some so you can choke up on the handle without slicing your palm open. You get a lot of leverage that way. But I've heard The Knife is really good also though. They basically look the same except the blade is a little different.

This is the sharpener I have:
http://www.centaurforge.com/prodinfo.asp?number=SAVESHARP

That thing is great! I don't have to wet it.

[Daydream Believer]

Thanks!

[JB]

AT, I have The Knife and the sharpener you listed and love them both. I actually have a LH and RH knife - could never figure out how to reverse the knife to use in the other direction :rolleyes: So, I just swap between the two :)

I have thought about a loop knife though...

[CookiePony]

Thanks for posting the new pics, EqT-- I see a big difference for such a short amount of time-- including some actual heel triangles! :cool:

Did you mean to post two solar shots of the same foot in post 100?