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luvmytbs
Jan. 18, 2008, 09:16 PM
Back in June 2007 several trainers at Churchill Downs received calls from a man by the name of Elliot James, who was looking for younger TB's. According to him he was working for a company called Dynamic Values out of Louisville, KY. Supposedly they were looking to purchase these horse to race them at smaller tracks throughout the country. If they didn't work out, they's find them good homes.
We found this entire scenario rather suspect and investigated a bit further. The phone number belongs to someone in California. When we asked to speak the corporate office in Louisville, we were told, they'd have to connect us, but that never happened.
We even went so far as to "offer" a horse here in KY, but apparently they got suspicious of all the questions we asked, especially about the location of the office here in Louisville.

Things were quiet until today. A trainer friend of mine received yet another call (they left a message twice).

Anyone else have this happen to them?

Acertainsmile
Jan. 20, 2008, 04:56 PM
Dyanamic Values has adds listed in several TB magazines... we called it out of curiousity a few months ago...mostly because the add stated the horses were "guarenteed"...

The entire operation is a bit strange...they are very hush hush about things, and you have to be "approved" to do business with them...we get pp's on different sale horses about once a week... guess we are on their list!

The two men we were dealing with told me the horses were at a training center... they are claimed by DV, then offered for sale... and YES, there is a guarentee... you just pay more for the horse... so there are two prices set... if the horse doesnt hit the board first time out, you can return it.

A friend of ours in Lexington says it's a complete scam... and some of the horses offered are a little "iffy" on paper to say the least...all of their calls to us also come as "restricted"...and for some reason they cannot fax pp's to us... something to do with my phone service they say...and they have NO email capabilities...hmmmm, sounds strange to me!

Just wanted to mention that they do have a physical office with the address listed in Lexington...our friend offered to set up a meeting with them, for us...LOL...

luvmytbs
Jan. 20, 2008, 09:32 PM
Do you have the phone number you called?
The listing with address for Lexington?
Which publication are they advertising in?

The # they left with us starts with area code 626 which is CA. When I called, a woman answered with a child screaming in the background.

We "offered" them a 4 yo who broke his maiden at $ 30,000 but then slipped down to lower ranks. Only "asked" $ 3,000 for him, but never got a reply after we asked too many questions about how their "business" worked and where exactly their offices were located, as I suggested it would be easier for me to correspond with someone here in Louisville, rather than someone located on the west coast.

I am VERY suspicious.

Acertainsmile
Jan. 20, 2008, 09:48 PM
Let me go searching...I have probably thrown out the lastest cuts they sent...

Lady Counselor
Jan. 21, 2008, 02:10 PM
Is this the same outfit that has had running ads in Thoroughbred Times for months for horses that read like, "Gelding 4-year old, hits the board MSW, benefit smaller track, $6,000", or "Filly, 3-year old, 2nd Allowance company last out, ready to win, $7,500"? I seem to remember a CA exchange.
They constantly have ads going on like that.
You know the old adage, if it seems to good to be true.....

Acertainsmile
Jan. 21, 2008, 02:23 PM
Yes, thats how their adds run..I see the adds in the TB times and the Mid-Atlantic TB...

SleepyFox
Jan. 21, 2008, 02:29 PM
Yes, thats how their adds run..I see the adds in the TB times and the Mid-Atlantic TB...

Lady Counselor, I was going to ask the same question! I've always been tempted to call b/c their ads really sound good, but the horses sound way under priced. I've been curious about this for a while. In just one of these ads in the latest BH, they've got a 5yo that "won for $32k...ready to try tougher" for $10k - sounds too good to be true. Am curious what the "scam" is.

Blueshadow
Jan. 21, 2008, 02:59 PM
Do you have the phone number you called?
The listing with address for Lexington?
Which publication are they advertising in?

The # they left with us starts with area code 626 which is CA. When I called, a woman answered with a child screaming in the background.

We "offered" them a 4 yo who broke his maiden at $ 30,000 but then slipped down to lower ranks. Only "asked" $ 3,000 for him, but never got a reply after we asked too many questions about how their "business" worked and where exactly their offices were located, as I suggested it would be easier for me to correspond with someone here in Louisville, rather than someone located on the west coast.

I am VERY suspicious.

LMTBs, you probably know that area code 626 is largely Arcadia area numbers, home of Santa Anita.

Lady Counselor
Jan. 21, 2008, 03:01 PM
I must admit, curiousity almost got the better of me as well. What I'd like to do is to get a few names of horses that they are offering now, and track them for a year, see how they do. Is that $6,500 horse running and winning for $20k or is he off the board for $2,500?
ACS, if you find the cuts on those horses, would you mind pm'ing me the names on them? I'd love to track a few and see what they do.
Thanks

Sing Mia Song
Jan. 21, 2008, 04:30 PM
all of their calls to us also come as "restricted"...and for some reason they cannot fax pp's to us... something to do with my phone service they say...and they have NO email capabilities...hmmmm, sounds strange to me!

Okay, this suddenly triggered something for me. About 8 years ago, a friend of mine saw an ad in the Mid-Atlantic TB for a bunch of horses and she was interested. The number was an answering machine and she left her name, address, phone and fax. A few days later, she got a letter saying that they couldn't give her any information because her phone number wasn't in her name (it was in her husband's name but he had a different last name) and same for her fax (which was registered to the barn name). So I called him, gave him my fax and he sent the stuff to me. It's been so long ago that I don't remember any of the horses, but it was really strange. They wouldn't tell us where they were or where the horses were, either.

Laurierace
Jan. 21, 2008, 04:38 PM
If the name Mark Bliss or Twenty Twenty stable comes up anywhere, run like the wind. He took me for several thousand dollars years ago. I sued him and won but he is a pro and had everything in his wife's name so I was unable to collect anything. The only good thing that came out of it is a woman at Pimlico was suckered in by him this fall and a mention of my name and the lawsuit got her a refund of her money eventually.

Slewdledo
Jan. 21, 2008, 08:30 PM
A $32k claimer in southern Cal is like a $10k claimer anywhere else. A $10k claimer in soCal is like a $3k claimer elsewhere.

hipsdontlie
Jan. 21, 2008, 09:08 PM
oh you are so right mark bliss is the absolute worst. a barnyard animal of the lowest degree. his wife is robin berol for those of you who want to have the heads up. he was midas farms and sales agency for awhile. you will see him at some of the sales buying the ones no one wants. his newest angle is 2 yr olds and everything is "scary fast" i have heard his tales before whether in person or as a bystander and his m o has not changed one bit. he did do some jail time and that is a fact. at one point over 684 which is a highway in westchester county yrs back someone hing a banner saying "mark bliss is a crook". he has screwed over many people in the past and continues to do so. horse show diva dot com

Acertainsmile
Jan. 21, 2008, 10:15 PM
I'm going to call "Larry" tomorrow, or have my husband call...we havent gotten any cuts in a few weeks...and I've thrown everything out except 1 page explaining how they do the vet checks on the horses for potential buyers...

I think I will tell him that we will be in town (Lexington) and would like to stop by the training center and go over a few prospects ourselves... should be interesting to hear what they have to say about that.

I've contacted a few trainer friends and bloodstock agents in Lexington, and only one guy had heard of this operation...he said it was a scam in not those exact words...

I'll let you know what I find out....

luvmytbs
Jan. 22, 2008, 11:15 AM
I am looking at the TT dated January 19th. They have four ads in there.
O.K. guys, let's get to the bottom of this.

BS, I will e-mail you the CA phone number for Elliot James. It's a cell.

I am on the end from where these people want to buy and you guys are at the end of wanting to buy.

If we can get some names of the horses they are offering, I can check at Churchill if they were trained by anyone here and sold off.

SleepyFox
Jan. 22, 2008, 11:53 AM
A $32k claimer in southern Cal is like a $10k claimer anywhere else. A $10k claimer in soCal is like a $3k claimer elsewhere.

Actually, it's the other way around. A bottom level claimer at a top tier track is like a mid level claimer at a mid tier track and a high level claimer at a lower tier track. And, if you truly have a horse that can win for $32k and is ready to move up, there is no way you would sell it privately for $10k unless something is wrong with it. And, they are selling it for $10k, how much did they buy it for??

To give them the benefit of the doubt, if these people are truly claiming horses for resale, I can see why they would vet prospective clients. That would be a tough game - you would have to sell the horse for more than you claimed it for and you would be in a balancing act of not wanting to give it too much time off b/w races, not wanting to move it up and have it run badly and not wanting to run it back for less than you have it advertised for and lose it to someone who gets your sales list. It would make sense to keep the names and PPs close to your chest.

I've also talked to other "sales agents" that are tight with their info. Refusing to reply to anything in writing, not giving any details until they vet you on the phone, etc. It always gives me the creeps and makes me think they are pricing the horses differently to different people or some other sketchy practice, but apparently it works for them. :confused:

I'm really curious to find out more info. My guess is that in reality, a 5yo who "won at $32k" did it as a 2yo and is now "ready to move up" from $3,500 claimers at Beulah (or something similar). Plus, I wonder if they just make up some of the horses to draw you in (bait and switch).

Regardless, it's good to know I'm not the only one who has looked at their ads and been curious.

luvmytbs
Jan. 22, 2008, 12:21 PM
Acertainsmile and I communicated, and she remembered incorrectly. They are NOT claimed.

These people are calling local (KY) trainers at home and on their cell phones asking to purchase horses. The phone number they leave, if they get your answering machine, is a CA number, while that person claims their corporate office is here in Louisville, KY.

No matter how many times I asked this Elliot James or his "secretary" (while child is screaming in the background), he could not tell me the address or phone number to the Louisville office. :confused:

P.S. As per Secretary of State, there is no company registered with the name of Dynamic Values or anything close to it.

Acertainsmile
Jan. 22, 2008, 01:20 PM
just called, left a "detailed message" with the answering machine as requested...now I wait...LOL

luvmytbs
Jan. 22, 2008, 01:53 PM
Can't wait, LOL.......

luvmytbs
Jan. 23, 2008, 08:14 PM
Anything?

Acertainsmile
Jan. 23, 2008, 09:50 PM
Nothing so far...I had to ask my husband how rude he was last time he spoke to Larry... seems he wasnt very nice..."HOW do you expect to sell horses in the 21st century with no email capabilities or being able to send a fax efficiantly"? This is what he said, (although he says he wasnt rude) LOL...and something about a rinky dink outfit, bla bla bla... so I told him tonight that he has to call back in the morning... just so we can try to get info... he's game, so hopefully I will hear something soon!

Slewdledo
Jan. 23, 2008, 10:02 PM
Actually, it's the other way around. A bottom level claimer at a top tier track is like a mid level claimer at a mid tier track and a high level claimer at a lower tier track.

That's generally not the way it works at the lower levels. A high-level claimer horse at a big track, yes, may be a stakes horse at a smaller track, but the big tracks don't run claimers as cheap as the small tracks - SO, that's why you see $32k horses shipping north to run for $10k, and why you see $2,500 Los Al horses ship in and run well for $10k at SA/HOL.

luvmytbs
Jan. 24, 2008, 08:40 AM
I have run that # through all the reverse look-up sites for 800 numbers and nothing comes back.

SleepyFox
Jan. 24, 2008, 10:45 AM
That's generally not the way it works at the lower levels. A high-level claimer horse at a big track, yes, may be a stakes horse at a smaller track, but the big tracks don't run claimers as cheap as the small tracks - SO, that's why you see $32k horses shipping north to run for $10k, and why you see $2,500 Los Al horses ship in and run well for $10k at SA/HOL.

Sheeeet.... if you have the hookup for $2.5k horses at Los Alamitos that can be competitive at $10k at Santa Anita and Hollywood, lemme know - I'll claim a barnfull!

I'm not saying horses don't move up, and of course there are times when someone will try to get away with dropping a horse from Santa Anita, etc. in cheap at Los Alamitos when it needs a race, they need an easy purse, etc. We see people from the Fairgrounds dropping horses in cheap at Delta (and people - myself included - watch for these and they will often get taken), but that doesn't mean a horse that legitimately belongs in the $5k claimers at Delta can go to FG and win, even at the bottom level.