Arabian Influence in TB and WBs

[allanglos]

A friend forwarded this article to me, and I thought readers here might enjoy it. I think most here already know much of this, but just in case....



ARABIAN TALES
by Monty Roberts

Dear Friends,

Make a historical journey through the genealogy of horses employed in
Thoroughbred racing, show jumping and dressage, and you will discover
the genetic influence of the past three centuries or so. I recently
embarked on research on this topic, and what I have found is a very
interesting pattern, which I would tend to call a harmless conspiracy.

The term harmless could be used because no one is detrimentally
affected by its presence. The term conspiracy could be used because
there seems to be a clear tendency on the part of the early breeders
to hide or thinly veil the presence of Arabian blood found in
significant amounts in the world-class athletes that we celebrate in
the disciplines I have addressed.

An example of these facts is clearly present in the world of
Thoroughbred horseracing. In America when the television sets are
notifying millions of who won the Kentucky Derby, the presenters are
carefully using only the term Thoroughbred. This is reported to the
public as a genetically pure individual and no mixture of blood is
alluded to.

When we begin to examine the roots of the Thoroughbred, it becomes
clear that two-thirds of their genetic makeup is due to pure Arabian
influence. When I was a child, I was told that the Thoroughbred
originated from three bloodlines: the Godolphin Barb, the Byerly Turk
and the Darley Arabian.

The Darley Arabian was always mentioned last, and most breeders
indicated that it was quite incidental and less influential than the
other two in the genetic makeup of the Thoroughbred. I never knew why
there was an attempt to lessen the Arabian influence, but I can
assure you that this mindset was clearly in place.

Recent studies including historical research and DNA data have
established facts clearly different from those I originally
understood. First, let me say that it is now believed that 95 percent
of all Thoroughbreds can trace their pedigrees directly to the Darley
Arabian. In addition, research has changed the title of the Godolphin
Barb to the Godolphin Arabian. It is clear that Godolphin was from
pure Arabian stock and not of the Moroccan Barb blood.

Sheik Mohammed bin Rashid al Maktoum has undertaken a study which
concluded that the stallion Godolphin was born in what is now Saudi
Arabia, and actually very near Dubai, an Arab emirate that he rules.
It is with this information in mind that Sheik Mohammed has titled
his racing interests Godolphin Racing.

Sheik Mohammed is the world’s largest owner of Thoroughbred
racehorses and coincidently one of the largest owners of pure Arabian
horses. He is the world’s primary supporter of Arabian endurance
racing, and he and his sons actually ride in these extremely large
competitions.

These latest studies and new revelations shed a different light on
the origins of the Thoroughbred racehorse. Most historians now
realize that they are made up of two-thirds Arabian blood. The
Turkoman horse surely gave the two Arabian stallions the bone, muscle
and substance required of the extreme athlete. The Arabian was
responsible for refinement, sensitivity and stamina.

It is often said of Thoroughbreds exhibiting refined heads, light
bone and angular conformation that they are showing ‘a bit of the
desert.’ Even in this statement we can hear the Thoroughbred
enthusiasts hiding the word Arabian. They seem to be unwilling to
admit that Arabian blood courses the veins of their precious
Thoroughbreds to a major extent.

While today’s breeding requirements would not allow the direct
influence of pure Arabian blood, there is no question that the
industry reaches out from time to time to favor those animals
exhibiting ‘a bit of the desert.’ With no direct, pure Arabian
animals used within the Thoroughbred racing industry, one should not
lose sight of the fact that without outside influence there has been
no reduction in the Arabian influence of the modern-day Thoroughbred.

Leaving the so-called pure Thoroughbred industry and entering the
world of the Warmblood, we find the Arabian even more strongly
included than in that of the racing industry. The Warmblood exists
because of a cross of the European cold bloods (draught horses) and
hot bloods (English Thoroughbreds). The pure Arabian was often
introduced throughout the centuries when more refinement and
sensitivity was desired.

The Warmblood is essentially thought of openly as a crossbreed. With
that in mind, there is still the desire on the part of most breeders
to slightly cover up the existence of Arabian blood within such
breeds as the Holstein, Hanoverian and the Trakehner, etc. While I’m

not quite sure why this tendency exists, my research is beginning to
open avenues of possibility for me.

The pure Arabian is generally pretty, and while it was bred in many
areas of the world for serious work and stamina, it has in the last
few centuries been thought of more as a beautiful show breed. Many of
the breeders who are serious about producing world-class racehorses,
show jumpers and dressage horses are less than enthusiastic about the
characteristics of the petite Arabian. Many people on a global basis
have come to think of them as a plaything rather than a serious,
world-class athlete.

“The pure Arabian is the poodle of the horse world” is a quote that
I
received while speaking with one of my Thoroughbred breeding
associates. “They are a lacey, frilly sissy of a horse,” he went on

to say. In my conversation, this breeder pointed out that they didn’t

have the strength required to be show jumper or a dressage horse, and
that while they raced, their times are consistently much slower than
that of the Thoroughbred.

It is the opinion of many serious horse people globally that the pure
Arabian often ends up in the hands of leisure horse people without
serious intent to compete in their disciplines against all breeds.
While this seems to be the common attitude of most of the world, the
French breeders speak far more openly about the influence of the
Arabian within their Selle Francais.

Many international show records will indicate that the Selle Francais
holds an extremely important position in the world of high-level show
jumping. French breeders are far more open to exposing the percentage
of Arabian blood coursing the veins of their Olympic hopefuls. It’s
funny how the poodle and the Selle Francais share a common country of
origin. Perhaps that’s why the French are willing to discuss it.

If, in fact, the pure Arabian is so slow, petite and incapable of
high jumping, why is its blood so important to the breeds which rule
the world in these three disciplines? For the answer I reach back to
my university years and to the words of my genetics professor. Dr.
Noble was a strong advocate for hybrid vigor. His position was that
when two pure breeds come together, the first cross is extremely
superior to its parents.

Hybrid vigor is experienced not only in the animal world, but in the
plant world as well. When a particular breed is kept pure, it tends
to become less and less robust as the centuries progress. The
influence of outside genetics then bring out the excellence of that
pure breed and produce offspring with what is often extreme
athleticism and strength.

When I began this project, I had no idea that I would find it as
interesting as it is. I have to ask myself how I could have traveled
the paths of this industry for all these decades without realizing
the presence of the conditions I am outlining. Since returning home,
I have walked through my stable looking at the Thoroughbreds with a
very different view than I have in the past.

www.montyrobert.com

[RP]

With all due respect, Mr Roberts has not done his homework concerning the Trakehners. The Trakehner has never tried to hide their Arabian blood. In fact, the Arabian is one of only two "outside" breeds that the ATA will/can approve for breeding stock.

He needs to do a little more research.

[JB]

I take anything MR says with a huge grain of salt. Race announcers have a hard enough time just conveying the aspects of racing to the public - can you imagine if they had to discuss their origins? Anyone who KNOWS horses is well aware of the TB's originations - heck, I knew that when I was 10. Nobody hides that, and the Traks don't hide it either. He really does need to do some research before spouting off this stuff.

[tri]

Poppycock. Matter of fact, the DNA testing that he is alluding to has proven that the TB has far more Iberian blood than arab blood as a foundation.

[ancientoaks]

Well, I don't think that Mr. Roberts 'neglecting' his research is a big issue, and it doesn't diminish the value of his artible. I would not expect him to become an 'instant' expert in the warmblood world in order to have a credible and viable take on the subject (it took me years of trial and error and lots of conversations with others to even come close to figuring this confusing world out...and I am always still learning!)
Additionally, I am taking from his article that his wish is to educate the masses who watch the famous races with this interesting information, I doubt, that as an owner OR equine professional, he is advocating the 'announcers' constantly desribe in detail all the complete bloodlines and origins of every horse in every race they announce...
And why the animosity towards his article? The vast majority of it is quite accurate (with the exception of the reference to Trak in his list of warmbloods), and one of the posters is 'beating a dead horse' regarding the Iberian vs Arabian angle...It's been discussed without validation for years back and forth and quite frankly, will never be solved satisfactorily to all interested parties..And why is it important to some that the 'arabian' connection be so disproven???

Overall, everything he points out, is quite accurate. His article is one of observation, personal observation, not scientific journalism. I was quite impressed that someone of his influence and without any 'ties' to the arabian community, can 'come around' to realizing the important cotributions the arabian breed has made to many sporthorse 'types'...I also agree with his observation about the 'slight hiding' of many breeders of the arabian heritage in their stock..We have found this particularly true among pony breeders from years past (another wall has come down in this arena as well finally!). and most breeders in Europe do NOT fall into this 'hiding the blood' catagory.Not just the French, but many many German breeders and state officials are happy to discuss the value of the arabian blood that they use...another argument beaten to the ground as well..
.It is the american breeder, perhaps the new one, who sometimes one runs into with this issue..

This article was brought to my attention in a timely manner.
I had recently recieved an inquiry about one of our Ironman/arabian foals. Thru Ironman's owner, Nancy Maloney.
I responded to this inquiry. The reply I received was reminiscent of some from a few years back.. At least in the rather unfortunate choice of words it reflected the misunderstanding of what a 'warmblood' is.
The buyer thanked me for replying to their inquiry and stated " . but I just noticed your colt was part arabian and I am looking for a 'full' warmblood (Quotations are my insert) ".
The erroneouse impression of many is that warmbloods are a 'full blooded' breed. It is sometimes difficult for Americans to understand the difference between a 'breed' and a 'type'...We run into it alot when we breed our arab/warmblood crosses..

I replied to this inquiry politely, telling them he was a fully registered GOV Oldenburg (making him as much a 'full warmblood' as one made up of a combo of Trak,Hanno,West, and Oldenburg), that his sire had quite a bit of arabian blood rather close up (as do many 'full' warmblods) and asking them if they would mind responding to let me know why his arabian blood was a problem for them? I said it is always helpful for breeders such as myself to know the why's of what buyers are searching for.
I thought perhaps this buyer may have been concerned about size, temperment, bone, or whatever other stereotypes may be out there and I wanted to address those concerns. And at the very least,
learn about what some are still thinking as it regards to the cross.
I have not received a reply to my request, sadly.
We do not find as many 'negative' responses to our crosses as even a mere two years ago..So many breeders have produced such wonderful animals from careful matings, that even some of the most die hard anti arabian folk are admitting to their quality and seeing the marketability of slightly smaller (sometimes!!) prettier, easier handling animals for a variety of sporting disciplines... this article is a very positive note to this and rather than generate such hostile or negative response, treated as it is...an intersting insight and observation by a fellow equine professional.

[Oakstable]

I thought it was an interesting article. Nothing new here for me, but I'm not the targeted reader, same with any others who hang out in a sporthorse breeding forum.

I've never owned an Arabian but a good friend is an Arabian breeder so I pay attention to that industry. She owns an Arabian gelding who has been trained to be a pony jumper. The little guy does an amazing job over fences, but the prejudice against him based on his genetics is quite amazing. He'd fare better for sales if he was a grade pony.

[tri]

nd one of the posters is 'beating a dead horse' regarding the Iberian vs Arabian angle...It's been discussed without validation for years back and forth and quite frankly, will never be solved satisfactorily to all interested parties..And why is it important to some that the 'arabian' connection be so disproven???

You ask why? For accuracy, thats why! And the DNA results proving the heavy foundation of Iberian compared to arab blood are hardly, as you put it, "without validation". I realize that some are not comfortable with scientific data and tend to want to stick with what they were taught from an early age instead. Others, however, are not and find the scientific data interesting and enlightening.

Also, I believe most wb breeders do not call the foals from the use of either TBs or of arabs in wb breeding "full bloods" either, they refer to the F1 generation as "half bloods". At least, all the time I've spent in Germany, Belgium, etc., that is what all the breeders called them there.

This has nothing to do with any rancor towards arabs. It is just the way it is. Perhaps what you are running into is the reputation of too many using the "wrong" type of arab just as there is some rancor against the Tb mare as too many used the "wrong" type of tb mare as well.

[STF]

With all due respect, Mr Roberts has not done his homework concerning the Trakehners.

:lol:

[JB]

I doubt, that as an owner OR equine professional, he is advocating the 'announcers' constantly desribe in detail all the complete bloodlines and origins of every horse in every race they announce...
No, he's not advocating that announcers do that, but when he says
In America when the television sets are
notifying millions of who won the Kentucky Derby, the presenters are
carefully using only the term Thoroughbred. it's just silly. The TB is the name of the breed - how else are they supposed to address them? "The horse who is now called a Thoroughbred but actually as originations in the Arab/Iberian lines"? Why doesn't he say the same about the QH race announcers? They ARE a "pure" breed for all intents and purposes today, just like the TWH or the Cleveland Bay or the Fjord. But that's not "hiding" the fact that they originated from one or more different breeds many years ago.

And why the animosity towards his article? The vast majority of it is quite accurate (with the exception of the reference to Trak in his list of warmbloods),
Yes, it's accurate, as you noted, but it's SILLY. He's accusing "people" of hiding things, either outright or by omission, and that's just not accurate of the horse world in general. He would have done much better to say "even though the TB race announcers call them a Thoroughbred, which is their universally known name, it is interesting to know that they have origins, hundreds of years ago, in the Arab world. And by the way, so does the American Quarter Horse."

The way he presented his thoughts is makes the horse world in general out to be a secretive society that doesn't want the "real" world to know the truth, and that's why I have a problem with it.

[eqsiu]

Why does he act like this is a secret? It certainly isn't. Arabs have been used (and are still used) for refinement in many breeds all over the world.

[Daydream Believer]

Poppycock. Matter of fact, the DNA testing that he is alluding to has proven that the TB has far more Iberian blood than arab blood as a foundation.

Thank You! Poppycock indeed! We know now the influence of the Barb was tremendous in early TB's and other European breeds...particularly those of the British Isles as well as North America which has the last remnants of the Spanish horses of 500 years ago in the rare Colonial Spanish strains. I sure don't mind giving credit to the Arabian horses for their genetic contributions to modern breeds but we can't forget the other breeds that also had great influence.

I also would consider the source...nuff said! :winkgrin:

[BigHorseLittleHorse]

In fact, the Arabian is one of only two "outside" breeds that the ATA will/can approve for breeding stock.

My sister's first dressage horse was by Condus, a registered Trakehner stallion who was 1/4 Arab. When I was younger, I remember going to Dressage at Devon and being clearly able to pick out the Condus babies... they have such distinctive, refined heads.

[tds]

When we begin to examine the roots of the Thoroughbred, it becomes clear that two-thirds of their genetic makeup is due to pure Arabian
influence. When I was a child, I was told that the Thoroughbred
originated from three bloodlines: the Godolphin Barb, the Byerly Turk
and the Darley Arabian.

The Darley Arabian was always mentioned last, and most breeders
indicated that it was quite incidental and less influential than the
other two in the genetic makeup of the Thoroughbred. I never knew why
there was an attempt to lessen the Arabian influence, but I can
assure you that this mindset was clearly in place.

Dear Monty,

We can't be held accountable for your lack of basic TB bloodline knowledge or assumptions in the face of all evidence to the contrary. Even so far back as your childhood, I imagine you might of heard of some no account TB by the name of "Eclipse" ... Or maybe just the phrase "Eclipse first, the rest, nowhere"?

You know, Eclipse, from whom the Bay Ronald, Nearco, Polynesian, Blenheim, Prince Bio, Princequillo, Ribot and Damascas lines all descend from (hint that is damn near every TB out there)? Eclipse, that famous horse who put ... what was his ancestor's name? On the map. Ah yes... the Darley Arabian. Yes, I totally see a TB breeder with a tiny portion of a clue dismissing the role of Eclipse. That makes perfect sense.

Sincerely,

The TB Breeding industry

*****************

Ooooh, but it sounds so much better as a conspiracy as opposed to some mundane fact that everyone with a passing familiarity of the TB industry knows, but apparently forgot to tell ol' Monty.

[camohn]

Poppycock. Matter of fact, the DNA testing that he is alluding to has proven that the TB has far more Iberian blood than arab blood as a foundation.

FWIW there are a lot of horses back in the first generation of the studbook that do indeed have the name "Barb" in them.

[Astraled]

Barbs aren't Iberian, they're African. Barbary Coast and all.

[eqsiu]

Barbs aren't Iberian, they're African. Barbary Coast and all.

I thought the Iberian descent is from when the Iberian peninsula was in muslim control? Hence the term Spanish Barb? Or am I wrong (entirely possible!)?

[Gindarkh]

Again, with all due respect, Mr. Roberts has also not bothered to include the latest in blood type and DNA research that finds markers present in Tbs that are also present in the Akhal-Teke but not in the Arabian...

[eqsiu]

I think he needs to take into consideration the native mare base as well. Good lord. TBs (and every breed really) developed from a mix of other breeds. Some have just been around longer than others, and thus have played a role in newer breeds. :rolleyes:

[vineyridge]

All you have to do is look at a lot of TBs and you will know that the Akhal-Teke (Turk) had a tremendous influence. It's just so obvious. They don't look Barb and most of them don't look Arab; and if you think the native Northern European horse was long and sleek and greyhound looking, you've got another think coming.

When I read the article, all I could think was "DUH!" After 300 years of a closed Studbook, the TB is just as much a breed as the Dalmatian is after 110.

[Astraled]

I thought the Iberian descent is from when the Iberian peninsula was in muslim control? Hence the term Spanish Barb? Or am I wrong (entirely possible!)?

Spanish Barbs are not African Barbs. They're descended from them.

The agile desert bred African Barb horse was crossed with existing Spanish stock resulting in a horse that became world famous by the Middle Ages and was much sought after by the Royal Stud farms of Europe. From the Spanish Barb Breeders Association (http://www.spanishbarb.com/the_spanish_barb/)

[Rallycairn]

From MR:

French breeders are far more open to exposing the percentage
of Arabian blood coursing the veins of their Olympic hopefuls. It’s
funny how the poodle and the Selle Francais share a common country of
origin. Perhaps that’s why the French are willing to discuss it.

------------------------

Well, no, actually, the poodle originated in Germany.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Damn race announcers, I was watching TVG the other day and no mention of the fact that all the horses were descended from native British and Irish mares! They are obviously all complicit in a massive cover up to deny the influence of the Galloway and Irish Hobby.


Methinks yer man Roberts needs to get a life.

[grayarabs]

More Iberian than Arabian?! I protest!!! Seriously though - what would Iberian have been back then? I think Iberian - then I think Spanish - then I think Andalusian - which obviously is wrong. If you look at the TB pedigrees as far back as they go - lots of Arabians/Barbs (?). Another study said Galloways. (?). The TB as a breed originated in England, right? I thought native English stock with desert horses. Where would Iberian come in - are you meaning Barbs??? I am forgetting - someone mentioned DNA testing for this and came up with more Iberian than Arabian? If yes - what present-day DNA was used as reference?

[Ghazzu]

I take anything MR says with a huge grain of salt.

I think a 50# salt block will do just nicely, thanks.

Insh'allah, the man is *not* jumping on the Arabian bandwagon.

He's the last thing a sensitive horse needs.

[Daydream Believer]

The Iberian "back then" was the Spanish Barb and Ginette...not the same as today's PRE's...which are descended from them. The closest thing we have to Spain's horses of 4-500 years ago is in the America's in the Colonial Spanish Strains which largely remained unchanged over the centuries. The difficulty is that the Spanish horses brought to America were relatively unselected so we got a smattering of all the Spanish horses of the times from Barbs (yes still pure as from Africa), Spanish Barbs (crosses with Barb blood) and Ginettes (a heavier smooth riding type more like modern Andies) so it's hard for an American conservation breeder to claim they have a "pure" Barb or whatever...thus we use the term Colonial Spanish. However within the breed, there are several very distinct strains and types.

Barb breeders in Europe have been in touch with some American breeders who have preserved the Barb type of Colonial Spanish horse and there is even an International Barb Horse Registry now that is very strict and bloodline based. My stallion is the only eligible horse I own actually.

Modern Iberians are the result of several centuries of selective breeding since the 1500's and there has been other blood added such as Arab and some heavier types to add size. So no, modern Iberians are not the same horses that were taken into England to create the TB.

I think the DNA testing is finding the "Spanish" or Iberian genes that are common to all horses of Barb descent....so no, not actually Spanish at all.... but the Barb was quite a different horse than an Arab in build..bred for battle and agility and not endurance as the Arab was....related but different.

This is an interesting article written by Deb Bennett PHD on the Origins of the Arab, Barb and Mustang and it discusses a lot of the history and lines of descent.

http://www.equinestudies.org/knowledge_base/origin.html

[VolteVT]

I am forgetting - someone mentioned DNA testing for this and came up with more Iberian than Arabian? If yes - what present-day DNA was used as reference?

I think Mr. Roberts was probably referencing (and not all that correctly) Cunningham, et al. (2001) Microsatellite diversity, pedigree relatedness and the contributions of founder lineages to thoroughbred horses. Animal Genetics 32:360-364.

The paper is in reality two studies reported together. The DNA work used 211 samples from Coolmore Stud in Ireland and compared their relatedness to modern-day (Egyptian) Arabians and Turkish horses, and a group of Shetlands as more of a 'control' group.

The pedigree analysis (my contribution) used 966,962 horses - everything in the Weatherby's electronic database at the time, plus a few I added.

I don't recall either study reaching a conclusion of more Iberian (or whatever) than Arabian blood. :) Actually the molecular work showed a similar measure of relatedness between the sampled TBs and both the Arabian and Turkish groups used in the study.

The abstract is here: http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1365-2052.2001.00785.x

It is worth noting that the terms 'Turk', 'Barb' and 'Arabian' were often used indiscriminately and very loosely by horse owners and traders of the 17th and 18th centuries. Horses could be labelled based on the location from which they left port, which may have been quite a haul from their home country/place of origin. Horses changed hands and names regularly. Labels were given if it helped sell a horse (as some would argue we see today with the term "warmblood"), especially during a time in Europe when all things oriental/eastern/North African were in high fashion. Whether right or wrong, in the historical literature we see the Goldophin Arabian = Godolphin Barb, and Willett (1970) and others are quick to point out more instances, such as Hon(e)ywood's Arabian = Sir J. William's Turk and Sir C. Turner's White Turk, and Sir Charles Sedley's Arabian = Compton Barb. Don't even get me started on the mares...

[Astraled]

Arabians were bred as war horses, prized for their intelligence, docile nature, beauty, and stamina.

They weren't bred for endurance as some abstract trait.

[camohn]

As to the comments on the Arabs and jumping.......I think it depends on WHAT Arab you are talking about. The endurance bred Arab is a very different critter from the teacup head horse of the halter ring that often does have confo "things" that would prevent it from jumping very well. I am not an expert of Arabs past by any means but somehow I think the modern halter Arab probably is not the same war critter of endurance from a few centuries ago in the desert.......
I have bred a couple half Arabs. I was very pleased with them. I will also say it took a lot of hunting to find Arab stallions I found to be of suitable type to breed to my WBx jumper mare. I did indeedy find pots of Arab stallions advertised at stud with back/hip/croup "stuff" that made them unacceptable as an ideal riding horse.

[Daydream Believer]

Arabians were bred as war horses, prized for their intelligence, docile nature, beauty, and stamina.

They weren't bred for endurance as some abstract trait.

Yes they were war horses but not used in the same kind of "war" as the classical war horses of Spain. Bedouins were raiders...they hit fast and hard, took prizes and ran like hell...The arab had to run fast and over great distances...that is what I meant by endurance..for which they are still the best in the world. No doubt the TB owes a lot of his stamina to his arabian blood.

They were not quite the same as the Barb and his descendants, the Spanish Barb and Ginette who were ridden by Conquistadors in armour (and later breeds like Lippizans, Andalusians and Lusitanos.) The classical horses had to fight in close quarters and the haute ecole movements as we know them today were used to protect the rider and assist in battle. The Barb was built differently and better suited to that type of fighting...not better than the arab as that is not what I meant...just different for a different style of "war."

On the topic of jumping ability...Our Col. Spanish horses can be excellent jumpers. I would expect the Barbs were also quite good jumpers and it would not surprise me if some of the modern sport horse jumping ability came down from them as well. I used to event a purebred arabian (Crabbet) some years ago and he was a good safe jumper but was very flat in his style.

[tds]

I think Mr. Roberts was probably referencing (and not all that correctly) Cunningham, et al. (2001) Microsatellite diversity, pedigree relatedness and the contributions of founder lineages to thoroughbred horses. Animal Genetics 32:360-364.

Yes, but the damn fool's entire premise was faulty.

He starts out by opining that the TB industry of his childhood (before genetic studies and whatnot) tried to downplay the involvement of the "arabian" by sheer virtue of the fact that they rolled "Darley" off the tongue last in a list of ... three. Except for the fact that by that time the Darley's overwhelming domination of the breed (through his descendant, Eclipse) was pretty much solidified, recognized, acknowledged and well known, never mind the idiocy of his "name was said last" conclusion as evidence.

It's sort of like me basing an argument on the premise that Americans didn't really get involved in WWII, but in spite of this flaw in our national character it was really, really, really important to America. Well, yes, no duh. But since my opening premise is complete and utter bulllshit, who cares what follows? Why give me a stamp of approval to the uninformed by debating the finer points of my bogus argument?

[eqsiu]

Spanish Barbs are not African Barbs. They're descended from them.

From the Spanish Barb Breeders Association (http://www.spanishbarb.com/the_spanish_barb/)

Thanks. That was what I was wondering!

[Holly Jeanne]

Got a chuckle out of the article and RP's post.

At the beginning, the horse was a stocky strong native animal which needed size and refinement. The really important and decisive development of the breed, therefore, occurred in the early 1800s when top quality English Thoroughbred and Arabian blood began to be introduced in small quantities.

From the FIRST paragraph of the history of the Trakehner on the ATA website.

and from the FIRST paragraph of breeding goals [The breed is] based on the population of warmblood horses of Trakehner origin created in East Prussia, which carry high percentages of Thoroughbred and Arabian as well as Shagya Arabian and Anglo-Arab genes.

Yup those Trakehener folks are sure trying to cover up the Arabian influence! Shame on them!!! :lol: