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szipi
Jan. 16, 2008, 02:38 AM
I am not sure if anybody else came across the same problem. I breed/raise/train sporthorses and despite being from Europe, I like horses with very high % of TB blood in them, which would make them particularly suitable for eventing. I also train all my young horses galloping and over cross-country fences, banks and water etc, however i am primarily a dressage/show jumper rider. I am also a very meticulous trainer, spending long hours with gymnastic lungeing, slow, long-and-low work and precision jumping work. Naturally, my youngsters are very relaxed and calm, even when they gallop or jump. Every time an event trainer/rider checks these horses out, they are very dissatisfied because they think these horses do not have "fire" or do not have "what it takes to event". In my translation it means: "I have no clue how to train a horse, period and an even horse should be stiff, crooked, tense and charge the fences hundred miles an hour while being ridden and jumped". Do all eventers think thatmental and physical RELAXATION is the basis of all training? If one can trot a novice course and still make it under time, why would 3 and 4 YOs have to be "conditioned" - conditioning meaning running them off their feet in bad form as opposed to gallop work on the bit? www.prairiepinesfarm.com

Carol Ames
Jan. 16, 2008, 03:04 AM
I hear your frustration; It is a question of eduction and training for the

"coaches:" sorry to say, I have had similar experiences with Olympic :eek:medal winners; Did you notice the latest ad for GMs' horsemastership series in Wellington this season? He will be having Susan Harris doing her "visible horse/rider " demo,:yes: whichwas designedfor this. my experience has been with coaches who have students try out horses, and put them in a vise grip/head lock; :mad: making it impossible for them to jump;:no: my [poor horses don't know what's happening, after all they've been trained to carry a rider around on totally loose rein,:yes: if necessary;to "ride themselves
" to , over and away from the jumps

I

DARQHORSE
Jan. 16, 2008, 03:07 AM
First off I'm NOT an event rider, but I have many friends who do event. Personally, as a jumper rider (who loves derbies) I want my horses to be quiet and forward at the same time. I expect and train my guys to jump what is put in front of them. I train my jumpers on event courses a few times every year for a change of scenery, experience and to teach them things such as drops, hills etc. Kudos to you for putting in the time, effort and training to create well rounded young horses. Not all event riders are looking for out of control horses. My good friend is an event rider and coach and her horse did 2 years of dressage prior to starting out on event jumps. She wanted him to learn to be balanced, collected, strong and flexable before she asked him to do any XC. As a result, shes placed in every event she entered on a green horse and her horse isnt over excited or crazy over the jumps - and yes, she always come in under time as well.

Picasso
Jan. 16, 2008, 07:23 AM
Firstly, I am not a trainer. If there was a trainer spectrum, I would be on the far end right near the words NOT TRAINER. Luckily, I work with a great REAL trainer, more importantly, my girls work with this trainer as they are the ones that own the "real" event horses in my house. The REAL event trainer insists their horses go just as you have described. There is no racing around like bats out of hell. Forward? yes. Crazy? No. There is lots and lots of discussion whether we are in the jump ring or cross country schooling on the difference between the two and how we get to nicely forward, but never allow crazy. When I get to purchase my next horse, it will go just as you have described.

west5
Jan. 16, 2008, 07:29 AM
My trainers insist that a horse be in front of your leg at all gates.

They want impulsion NOT speed.

That being said they like a horse that "takes" you to the fence but that has more to do with attitude than anything else.

ThirdCharm
Jan. 16, 2008, 08:36 AM
Unfortunately a lot of not-very-good trainers think that in order to be an event horse, it has to basically be running away with you and jumps whatever is in front of it in order to avoid slowing down.

These are people who think the quote "Let the fence be the bit" means "if 3' doesn't slow your horse down, crank it up to 3'6"." Don't get me wrong it is one of my favorite quotes! but I want to put "Let (your horse's painstakingly instilled, through gymnastics and correct riding, knowledge of how to jump) the fence (quietly and with good form in order to achieve a balanced, responsive landing) be the bit" for these idiots.

Makes it a bit of a mouthful though. And not very good grammar. :-)

Jennifer

BigRuss1996
Jan. 16, 2008, 08:49 AM
I am not sure if anybody else came across the same problem. I breed/raise/train sporthorses and despite being from Europe, I like horses with very high % of TB blood in them, which would make them particularly suitable for eventing. I also train all my young horses galloping and over cross-country fences, banks and water etc, however i am primarily a dressage/show jumper rider. I am also a very meticulous trainer, spending long hours with gymnastic lungeing, slow, long-and-low work and precision jumping work. Naturally, my youngsters are very relaxed and calm, even when they gallop or jump. Every time an event trainer/rider checks these horses out, they are very dissatisfied because they think these horses do not have "fire" or do not have "what it takes to event". In my translation it means: "I have no clue how to train a horse, period and an even horse should be stiff, crooked, tense and charge the fences hundred miles an hour while being ridden and jumped". [QUOTE]


Okay.... flame suit on and zipped.......
First..... why would you feel this way just because your horse was not "their kind of horse" which is what their statements would mean to me. I am not trying to discredit your feelings on the matter but I think when you are breeding, or training and selling horses you have to accept that not everyone is going to like your horses and/or have the same opinion about them or training methods as you do. I am sure you are frustrated but everyone unfortunately has their own taste as to what they want. Also why does it have to be one extreme or another. I don't see too many event prospects on a day to day basis ripping around out of control and stiff, crooked, and charging fences. I really honestly from your statement do not see where this was implied by them basically saying your horse was quieter then what they were looking for, or too quiet for THEM, or that to THEM the horse wasn't eventing material. Sounds like you need to maybe not take their opinions so personally and accept that not everyone wants the same things in a young horse. Eventually someone will come along and it will be a match....sometimes it just takes a while. Now.... that said...as with dating... if EVERYONE you meet is saying there is something wrong...then maybe there is a problem.


[QUOTE]****"Do all eventers think that mental and physical RELAXATION is the basis of all training? If one can trot a novice course and still make it under time, why would 3 and 4 YOs have to be "conditioned" - conditioning meaning running them off their feet in bad form as opposed to gallop work on the bit? www.prairiepinesfarm.com



I don't think that is what conditioning means at all. I think at least as I was lead to believe it is the process in which you get a horse fit meaning trotting hills, controled canter sets, and gallops...but babies (3 &4 yr old) really don't need to be doing gallop sets to go Novice and I certainly don't think there are people out there "runnning them off their feet" at least not anyone who knows what they are doing. I am not sure where you were going with that statement..... that confused me.

As for trotting the whole x-co because you can still make the time.... thats fine if you plan to stay at Novice and/or you are timid or just learning. It really is best and essential that they learn to canter a course if they are going to ever move up and/or truely be an event horse. The idea is to get them going forward at a nice balanced canter and trotting sometimes sets them up to suck back at fences. I have bred, raise and trained alot of young horses for eventing and I never trotted an entire x-co course. My babies learned to canter single fences at home first and when first starting out competing they DID trot the downhill fences, and occaisionally would break to trot looking at something but most of the course was done at the canter. Speed trotting around a x-co course really isn't any better for their legs. JMO ...

LarissaL
Jan. 16, 2008, 10:23 AM
Every time an event trainer/rider checks these horses out, they are very dissatisfied because they think these horses do not have "fire" or do not have "what it takes to event".

From looking at your website, it appears you are more geared toward the EQ/hunter/jumper rings. Or at least towards that kind of sales.

As opposed to these disciplines, eventing has a wider range of acceptable temperments and attitudes for their horses. Some of us enjoy riding hotter horses and are lucky that they fit into our sport :) My feeling would be that you are running into riders or trainers who prefer a more sensitive or hot personality. I don't think this is necessarily representative of all eventers, but it is not uncommon either.

quietann
Jan. 16, 2008, 10:36 AM
total newbie comment here, and my apologies to anyone who has already seen it. I am getting the impression that at the high levels, eventers do need a little "hot" to really be competitive. My trainer-in-all-but-name got her current eventer, who is lovely, because his original owner/trainer realized that he is just too quiet/mellow to really "go" at high levels. She has no intention of going higher than Prelim on him, and knows he may end up being a bit too slow even for that level.

On the other end of the scale, at the lower levels there are many good horses available at reasonable prices. There are old schoolmasters who need to take it easy, young horses who need more miles, "off" breed horses that will be fine up to BN but may not have the speed for anything higher (I am thinking of the lovely little Fjord mare who has won BN at the AECs a couple of times. Amazing horse, but I doubt she can get around a Training, or possibly a Novice, course within time.), horses who will take care of their rider even if s/he is mostly in the dark about how to properly do a good X/C round.

So if you are competing in the former market, you somehow need to show that your horses *do* have that boldness and speed. And in the latter market, there's a lot of competition that may be lower-priced. But it sounds like you have good horses, so best wishes on figuring this out.

kacey'srider
Jan. 16, 2008, 10:36 AM
A dear friend of mine has a beautiful gray TB gelding who is has half the fire of my Irish sport horse. They are VERY successful, almost always finished first at training level and have placed 4th and 2nd at their first two prelims.

I watch her warm up for cross country and worry b/c they slowly gallumph around. She gets him fired up right before they go in the start box with a fast gallop and a few smacks of the whip and they are off. He is so relaxed and so calm. I don't know why event riders think their horses have to be half nuts to have the fire to event.

That being said, I like a horse with a bit more fire. But that's just me. My dear friends horse is absolutley amazing and loves his job but goes about it like the turtle in the tortoise and the hare. Slow and steady wins the race. We could all learn a thing or two from horses and riders like these.

LisaB
Jan. 16, 2008, 10:42 AM
Maybe the wrong riders are looking at your horses? That's the only thing I can figure out because all the trainers I know would LOVE to have a rideable athletic horse under them.
And not 'hot' in terms of temperament. 'Hot' as far as can go all day long and ask for more the next day.
And not 'boldness' in terms of go no matter what. Boldness as far as they like to figure things out and love a challenge.
One thing that a lot of eventers DON'T like is BIG. That's not real handy out on x-c. They can be tall, sure, but not BIG.
The eventers would love to have a jumper. That 4'3" is really big now and they need a good jumper at the end of the day.

flypony74
Jan. 16, 2008, 11:09 AM
I have a friend who is a very lower level rider who rides with an ULR. She really needs a nice little quiet horse to show her the ropes and allow her to have FUN, because she is very much a beginner physically and mentally.

Instead, she rides this ball-of-nervous-energy horse, because her trainer has convinced her that in order to event, she needs something HOT. She was so nervous on this horse last fall when we went x-c schooling, that she only jumped two jumps, and spent most of the ride clamped down in the fetal position. The rest of us were out there having fun on our quiet, well-schooled lower level horses. It was really sad, because I could tell that she was envious of our horses, who would hack around on the buckle and stand quietly, but were also well-prepared to "wake up" and do their x-c jobs correctly with plenty of enthusiasm and impulsion. But her trainer has convinced her that she needs something "hot," so she won't even consider a horse like one of ours. I will never understand that mentality.

I'm just a lower level warrior, but I don't think that an event horse needs to be a fire breathing dragon to be successful.

bornfreenowexpensive
Jan. 16, 2008, 11:17 AM
Just because a few feel that way doesn't mean all eventers do.....I like sensitive rides. I want FORWARD well installed....I hate it when I take off my leg and a horse's instinct is to stop like a golf cart. That does not mean that I like horses who are tense or run aways....hello...that makes it kinda of tough to be competitive in dressage.

But I like a horse who goes to their fences and takes you to their fences without running to their fences.

But this is just the type of horse I personally like...it was the kind of horse I liked in the jumpers and the kind I like to ride generally. Put me on a lazy slug or on a horse that pulls like a tank...and I ride like crap. Other people ride those types of horses very well....and it doesn't mean that a horse who is not my type of horse isn't a very nice horse for someone else.

I would not classify all eventers off the statements of a few. And the last thing ANY eventer who knows anything (and values their own safety or at least wants to be competitive) wants to be sitting on is something crazy.

sirena_chaucer
Jan. 16, 2008, 01:51 PM
I agree that I like a horse that really really wants to take me to a fence. I have loved three horses that could be classified as tanks; I don't mind it. I like standing up a bit and saying, "Easy, wait, wait. Alright." That's a personal thing. I really dislike riding horses that act like golf carts (as someone mentioned) w/ no weight in their contact. I like a lot of contact in the bridle, and just a light leg (like, keeping horse straight, nice tight form). :confused::) That's just me.

I see the distances so much better when the horse is saying, "Oh yeah, let me jump it...from here? No? From here? No? Fine, from here? Let's smoke it!" :lol:

Ralph said it was like a horse taking you by the collar and saying, "Come with me"...I always liked that expression.

That said, I don't appreciate a horse that acts like an idiot in warm-up or doesn't listen. I'm not into spooky, huge barreled horses who need to be coaxed into situations. I like bold, I like a smaller barrel, I like a compact feel-not a big, round, nervous-nelly. The key to riding the aforementioned tanks was the fact that while they loved to jump, and wanted to take me to the fence, they also listened and kept a good brain about it all. I want a horse that communicates out there w/ me, not just lopes along and pops over jumps la-de-da or takes off and using jumps as speed bumps. :no:

BBowen
Jan. 16, 2008, 02:10 PM
You know, it is really hard for breeders. You can have ten people look at the same horse and get ten different answers as to why he won't work for them. Not every horse/rider combination is a good match. You breed and market the best horses you can and try not to take the business aspects personally. I know that is easier said then done when you have so much into these horses.

olympicprincess
Jan. 16, 2008, 02:43 PM
Now.... that said...as with dating... if EVERYONE you meet is saying there is something wrong...then maybe there is a problem.
Well said.

It could be that your horses just aren't the right animals for eventing.

With the prices on your website- people should expect a lot.

lstevenson
Jan. 16, 2008, 03:13 PM
as with dating... if EVERYONE you meet is saying there is something wrong...then maybe there is a problem.




I agree.

Event horses need to be forward thinkers. And it is possible to be relaxed AND forward. It's possible that in your efforts to get them relaxed, you have allowed them to become lazy or insensitive.

On cross country a horse should be being held back slightly at his fences, especially at Prelim and above. If a horse is not thinking forward (ie he wants to go and wants to jump the fence without the rider having to push all the time) the upper levels become dangerous.

bludini
Jan. 16, 2008, 03:16 PM
... "Let (your horse's painstakingly instilled, through gymnastics and correct riding, knowledge of how to jump) the fence (quietly and with good form in order to achieve a balanced, responsive landing) be the bit" for these idiots.

Makes it a bit of a mouthful though. And not very good grammar. :-)

JenniferBRAVA! Well said! :)

I was thinking on reading the original post, that perhaps these "trainers" can't imagine a young horse having that much skill/knowledge at a young age, so they assume it means the horse has no fire, no drive. [?]

Janet
Jan. 16, 2008, 03:20 PM
Are people looking at your horses as "lower level future-packers", or "potential upper level eventers"? Makes a difference.

But either way, one of the key attributes of a good eventer (upper or lower level) is the ability to "think for itself", and not wait for direction from the rider. Reading between the lines, THAT may be what your horses seem to be missing.

snoopy
Jan. 16, 2008, 03:21 PM
I agree.

Event horses need to be forward thinkers. And it is possible to be relaxed AND forward. It's possible that in your efforts to get them relaxed, you have allowed them to become lazy or insensitive.

On cross country a horse should be being held back slightly at his fences, especially at Prelim and above. If a horse is not thinking forward (ie he wants to go and wants to jump the fence without the rider having to push all the time) the upper levels become dangerous.


A good event horse should be forward "AND" thinking. ;)

ThirdCharm
Jan. 16, 2008, 03:32 PM
I would think a dressage or jumper horse would need to be forward (I'd be danged if I'd want to jump 5'3" on an insensitive clod), but might seem a bit quiet to someone who is looking for the next Murphy Himself or Messiah *laugh*. Maybe some of the trainers who are deeming these horses too quiet (or whatever) are a bit "old school" and aren't used to the current trend toward horses who can/will win the dressage and sj, which demands a horse that is a bit more "broke".

Jennifer

ccoronios
Jan. 16, 2008, 04:00 PM
quietann, are you referring (little Fjord mare) to Bella Portabella (I think that's her name) from the Hudson Valley area? She may be more advanced than that, but she's a CUTE jumper!

quietann
Jan. 16, 2008, 04:59 PM
No, I was thinking of SNF Maarta. See http://sorumfjordfarm.com/events.html

szipi
Jan. 16, 2008, 05:08 PM
[QUOTE=szipi;2940503]I am not sure if anybody else came across the same problem. I breed/raise/train sporthorses and despite being from Europe, I like horses with very high % of TB blood in them, which would make them particularly suitable for eventing. I also train all my young horses galloping and over cross-country fences, banks and water etc, however i am primarily a dressage/show jumper rider. I am also a very meticulous trainer, spending long hours with gymnastic lungeing, slow, long-and-low work and precision jumping work. Naturally, my youngsters are very relaxed and calm, even when they gallop or jump. Every time an event trainer/rider checks these horses out, they are very dissatisfied because they think these horses do not have "fire" or do not have "what it takes to event". In my translation it means: "I have no clue how to train a horse, period and an even horse should be stiff, crooked, tense and charge the fences hundred miles an hour while being ridden and jumped". [QUOTE]


Okay.... flame suit on and zipped.......
First..... why would you feel this way just because your horse was not "their kind of horse" which is what their statements would mean to me. I am not trying to discredit your feelings on the matter but I think when you are breeding, or training and selling horses you have to accept that not everyone is going to like your horses and/or have the same opinion about them or training methods as you do. I am sure you are frustrated but everyone unfortunately has their own taste as to what they want. Also why does it have to be one extreme or another. I don't see too many event prospects on a day to day basis ripping around out of control and stiff, crooked, and charging fences. I really honestly from your statement do not see where this was implied by them basically saying your horse was quieter then what they were looking for, or too quiet for THEM, or that to THEM the horse wasn't eventing material. Sounds like you need to maybe not take their opinions so personally and accept that not everyone wants the same things in a young horse. Eventually someone will come along and it will be a match....sometimes it just takes a while. Now.... that said...as with dating... if EVERYONE you meet is saying there is something wrong...then maybe there is a problem.






I don't think that is what conditioning means at all. I think at least as I was lead to believe it is the process in which you get a horse fit meaning trotting hills, controled canter sets, and gallops...but babies (3 &4 yr old) really don't need to be doing gallop sets to go Novice and I certainly don't think there are people out there "runnning them off their feet" at least not anyone who knows what they are doing. I am not sure where you were going with that statement..... that confused me.

As for trotting the whole x-co because you can still make the time.... thats fine if you plan to stay at Novice and/or you are timid or just learning. It really is best and essential that they learn to canter a course if they are going to ever move up and/or truely be an event horse. The idea is to get them going forward at a nice balanced canter and trotting sometimes sets them up to suck back at fences. I have bred, raise and trained alot of young horses for eventing and I never trotted an entire x-co course. My babies learned to canter single fences at home first and when first starting out competing they DID trot the downhill fences, and occaisionally would break to trot looking at something but most of the course was done at the canter. Speed trotting around a x-co course really isn't any better for their legs. JMO ...

This is exactly what I am talking about. This post had nothing to do with whether I sold the horse or not and it is not about "feelings". It is a general trend. There are lots of TOP LEVEL event riders, and I mean TOP, who talk the talk - but have no idea. That is where the problem is. Then, people like this poster get defensive, instead of thinking that there may be true to this. There are very few true trainers out there. What happens most of the time that when a young rider gets lucky with one horse and has some success, he or she becomes a "trainer" and wants to train every horse the same way. Then, if the horse does not conform to that particular riding style, the "trainer" makes the owner get rid of it and get another one (without properly developing the horse). Most trainers do not have to learn anything because it is always the horse's fault, and there's always more money put into the horses by their owners. Most of the trainers are beating the stinging nettle with somebody else's dick. www.prairiepinesfarm.com

szipi
Jan. 16, 2008, 05:21 PM
I agree.

Event horses need to be forward thinkers. And it is possible to be relaxed AND forward. It's possible that in your efforts to get them relaxed, you have allowed them to become lazy or insensitive.

On cross country a horse should be being held back slightly at his fences, especially at Prelim and above. If a horse is not thinking forward (ie he wants to go and wants to jump the fence without the rider having to push all the time) the upper levels become dangerous.

Several posters here seem to be missing the boat. A properly trained horse is FORWARD and takes you to the fence. Being relaxed mentally and physically and perform at top speed are not mutually exclusive things. Why would a horse has to be tense, nervous and ill-trained first, BEFORE it is ready to perform?

Think about it: how much would you be able to concentrate in a classroom if your tooth hurts like hell?
Think about it: how much would you be able to concentrate if you were afraid of your teacher beating you with a stick at any minute?
Think about it: how well would your kid learn to play baseball if he/she were required to do everything right off the bat without calmly, quietly lerning the basics?

And to the poster who likes to stand up in the stirrups before a jump and gun the horse: try that at higher levels and hope you have internet access in the hospital to let me know how it worked out.

bornfreenowexpensive
Jan. 16, 2008, 05:49 PM
Several posters here seem to be missing the boat. A properly trained horse is FORWARD and takes you to the fence. Being relaxed mentally and physically and perform at top speed are not mutually exclusive things. Why would a horse has to be tense, nervous and ill-trained first, BEFORE it is ready to perform?

Think about it: how much would you be able to concentrate in a classroom if your tooth hurts like hell?
Think about it: how much would you be able to concentrate if you were afraid of your teacher beating you with a stick at any minute?
Think about it: how well would your kid learn to play baseball if he/she were required to do everything right off the bat without calmly, quietly lerning the basics?

And to the poster who likes to stand up in the stirrups before a jump and gun the horse: try that at higher levels and hope you have internet access in the hospital to let me know how it worked out.


I think most of use who were saying we like forward were not saying that we do not understand. I know forward and relaxed....that is the goal....but I don't like a horse I have to constantly tell to be forward.

MOST people think this is a warmblood thing....that warmbloods are not "forward". It is not true. All the warmbloods on the farm where my horse are are very forward...and most are forward and relaxed. But you don't have to KICK them to get them forward....they are forward, relaxed BUT sensitive. The sensitivity is a thing of personal preference. I like horses that are very sensitive (to all aids)....basically, I like horse that you finesse the ride...but other riders either can not ride sensitive or do not like it. I get on my friends dressage horses and think that they are a blast to ride...but often, when selling them, riders (even ones who say that they are riding at PSG)...get run away with at the damn trot and can't ride one side of these horses because they are used to horses dull to their aids and ride off their hands.

I guess what I'm saying is that you are making broad generalizations about eventers that are not true. There are many very good event trainers out there....and there are bad ones too...just as in ALL sports.

LarissaL
Jan. 16, 2008, 05:51 PM
Several posters here seem to be missing the boat. A properly trained horse is FORWARD and takes you to the fence. Being relaxed mentally and physically and perform at top speed are not mutually exclusive things. Why would a horse has to be tense, nervous and ill-trained first, BEFORE it is ready to perform?

Think about it: how much would you be able to concentrate in a classroom if your tooth hurts like hell?
Think about it: how much would you be able to concentrate if you were afraid of your teacher beating you with a stick at any minute?
Think about it: how well would your kid learn to play baseball if he/she were required to do everything right off the bat without calmly, quietly lerning the basics?


Confused.

Because an eventer doesn't like the particular horse they tried
translates to
they don't like your training methods
translates to
obviously they make their horses work with pain, fear and a lack of training scale?

Even at bum barns, I have never heard an eventer (or other, for that matter) describe the above as a way to acheive "forward."

KBG Eventer
Jan. 16, 2008, 05:53 PM
total newbie comment here, and my apologies to anyone who has already seen it. I am getting the impression that at the high levels, eventers do need a little "hot" to really be competitive. My trainer-in-all-but-name got her current eventer, who is lovely, because his original owner/trainer realized that he is just too quiet/mellow to really "go" at high levels. She has no intention of going higher than Prelim on him, and knows he may end up being a bit too slow even for that level.

On the other end of the scale, at the lower levels there are many good horses available at reasonable prices. There are old schoolmasters who need to take it easy, young horses who need more miles, "off" breed horses that will be fine up to BN but may not have the speed for anything higher (I am thinking of the lovely little Fjord mare who has won BN at the AECs a couple of times. Amazing horse, but I doubt she can get around a Training, or possibly a Novice, course within time.), horses who will take care of their rider even if s/he is mostly in the dark about how to properly do a good X/C round.

So if you are competing in the former market, you somehow need to show that your horses *do* have that boldness and speed. And in the latter market, there's a lot of competition that may be lower-priced. But it sounds like you have good horses, so best wishes on figuring this out.

I love little SNF Maarta! I know this OT but I had to out my word in on her.

I don't know about Training, but she has been to several Novices both in 2006 and 2007 and made the time at all of them except for one where she got eliminated-don't know why (including the Area 8 Novice Championships which I believe was 400mpm-pretty fast for a little Fjord). She is a pretty athletic for her size actually! :yes:

SillyMe
Jan. 16, 2008, 06:16 PM
Forward is much different than "frantic". I understand what the OP is saying. Some eventers think that if the horse isn't "taking them to the fence" that means the horse is not forward (remember the key words - SOME EVENTERS).

I ran into this problem when showing a nice, quiet forward horse to some eventers. This horse galloped nicely and quietly with his head low. In their experience, this horse "must not like to jump". I realized that I was presenting the horse to the wrong buyer and gently reminded them that on the contrary, he likes to jump and is comfortable with jumping, but was also soft and responsive to the jumps. The horse had a huge stride which made it easier to make the course in the time allowed without seemingly running frantically.

I sold him to another buyer who was looking for a more relaxing and fun ride rather than an "adrenaline rush".

bornfreenowexpensive
Jan. 16, 2008, 06:22 PM
Forward is much different than "frantic". I understand what the OP is saying. Some eventers think that if the horse isn't "taking them to the fence" that means the horse is not forward (remember the key words - SOME EVENTERS).




That I do agree with....especially in dressage. Some people think forward so much that the are running the horse off their feet...and pushing them past their natural rhythm.

2ndyrgal
Jan. 16, 2008, 09:24 PM
Ok, I went to the OP's website and I would not kick any of them out of my barn. I really like Armstrong. I don't event. I used to foxhunt, I now show my "bought to be a field hunter" in the hunters because, well I have a distinct lack of guts at my age, which is probably why I don't event. Oh and the big horse hates flatwork. I thought the OP's horses quite lovely, and fail to see why any of them couldn't event, a couple might have upper level potential, but I'm not sure that the "potential" translates into $$ when you are talking about eventers. Hell, show em to the big EQ girls, they'll love them. Really though, Armstrong would be very happy in Kentucky. He did not look to have any "lack of fire" in his photo. I think that he'd LOVE being my next (ok only) fancy show hunter. Everyone would ask where I got him and I'd have to send them to you. think of the advertising... as my husband says "He's an ooooh...aaaaah horse". Yep.

lstevenson
Jan. 16, 2008, 11:19 PM
Several posters here seem to be missing the boat. A properly trained horse is FORWARD and takes you to the fence. Being relaxed mentally and physically and perform at top speed are not mutually exclusive things.


Of course the bottom two statements are true, but I think you are the one who is missing the boat here.

The fact that you say: "There are lots of TOP LEVEL event riders, and I mean TOP, who talk the talk - but have no idea" really amuses me. Because of course you are better than they are. Do you even event?

Top level event riders certainly DO have horses who are relaxed, confident, and thinking clearly while on cross country. With the complexity of courses nowadays, that is required. Have you watched Rolex lately? Name one "tense, nervous and ill-trained with no basics" cross country horse there. Stand there and watch horse after horse gallop by you at top speed, and you will see confident, focused horses who know their jobs well and trust their riders.

Just because many top riders have the confidence and skill to ride and train the hot ones who often have the highest levels of bravery, speed, endurance, and grit (which make a top event horse), doesn't mean that they go looking for hot, crazy and out of control horses!

If the top riders are saying your horses are not suitable for eventing, then they are probably not suitable. Try selling to a different market.

magnolia73
Jan. 17, 2008, 09:06 AM
Your horses are really nice. And priced accordingly.

I don't know anyone who would find a horse that galloped at the proper speed for their particular level in a relaxed fashion with a clear feeling of wanting to jump the jump a negative. But I'll say in general that eventers seem to like more forward horses.

But honestly, anyone who just fully dismisses the training abilities of an entire genre of riders in america kind of comes off as arrogant and close minded.

Chipngrace
Jan. 17, 2008, 06:25 PM
...

Guyot
Jan. 17, 2008, 06:55 PM
I think when you are selling horses you need to be prepared for a certain amount of tire kickers! That being said, if someone is seriously looking for a horse and they are a trainer, the level of in front of the leg can be souped up or dumbed down with additional training. If they offered that to you as a excuse, I would take it as such, not as a real reason. Often people will give an excuse to avoid saying why they are not buying. Maybe they don't have the $$ or maybe something just doesn't work for a personal reason. Who knows, and I wouldn't waste to much effort thinking about it.

I did check out your website, and I have to say that for me I prefer a lighter, smaller horse like your Coverboy seems to be. Many of the other horses seemed a bit heavy and big to me, for my taste. I personally like the OTTB's for myself for eventing. That being said, I have found warmblood breeds and draft crosses for many of my clients if that fulfills their needs. I personally have a bigger, heavier Selle Francais that I just do dressage with, and even though he could event he's not my X-C ride...so I don't event him. Any person shopping with a trainer and is buying what the trainer wants to ride, should perhaps realize that unless they ride exactly like the trainer, they maybe buying a horse for just the trainer to ride....

I see lots of barns where the trainer likes this saddle, so everyone in the barn is riding in that saddle....hello people does that make any sense? NO one is built the same, each horse is different, therefore one saddle, will not work for everyone regardless if it fits! It's the same for the horses! People should buy what works for them, not their trainer, or friend, or parent wants them to have. Pick what makes you happy and successful.:yes:

piccolittle
Jan. 17, 2008, 07:13 PM
It could be a money issue? Personally I *love* your horses' talent and beauty. But for a horse that is essentially an event prospect, no matter how much they have won in other disciplines, I would either be looking for a price tens of thousands lower or more experience.

But I am *NOT* a trainer in by any definition.

They are gorgeous, though, and I for one appreciate being able to hang out on the buckle before and after my rides while I deal with my own nervousness then go out and kick butt on cross country! Because my little OTTB is wonderful and quiet like that :)

Taunton
Jan. 17, 2008, 09:11 PM
Andras,
I have a Lemgo mare that I have been told by numerous people would make an incredible event horse. Sensitive, huge gaits, and a heart like a lion. The Lemgo line really stamps them.
D:)

LarissaL
Jan. 17, 2008, 09:46 PM
Ha, sounds like this ridiculously self promoting thread my interest a buyer or two.

Centuree
Jan. 17, 2008, 11:33 PM
I think when you are selling horses you need to be prepared for a certain amount of tire kickers! That being said, if someone is seriously looking for a horse and they are a trainer, the level of in front of the leg can be souped up or dumbed down with additional training. If they offered that to you as a excuse, I would take it as such, not as a real reason. Often people will give an excuse to avoid saying why they are not buying. Maybe they don't have the $$ or maybe something just doesn't work for a personal reason. Who knows, and I wouldn't waste to much effort thinking about it.

Totally agree. I am also horse shopping right now, and have a few "excuses" I use when I know it is not the horse for me. One of them is "too green" or "too much horse for me". Really, it is usually because they do not correspond with the ideal I have in my head (but I feel mean saying that). And for 20,000+ I'm going to be picky. I must say though, I think your horses are gorgeous, but do look like they would suit the h/j or dressage mold better than eventer. Also, keep in mind most eventers don't spend near the amount of cash as h/j and dressage riders's do on their horses, we get a lot of ours cheap and off the track, so when we are spending big bucks we are really looking for that ideal Rolex contender. JMO (and I am NO trainer).

szipi
Jan. 18, 2008, 07:47 AM
I am not trying to dismiss an entire discipline or people who participate in it. I love riding c cross-country, but you can only do so much. I have had former 4-star and 3-star horses after they have developed problems with their (yes, top-level) event riders and my opinion was formed through the process of fixing them and finding out what the roots of their problems were. In my experience most of the top level event riders, while they talk the talk, they ride the 3 disciplines as 3 different sports, instead of understanding the connection between them. I also have to admit, some of the absolute best trainers and riders who I have ever seen/trained with are eventers. Tad Coffin is one of the absolute best. Micheal Page is an absolutely amazing instructor. Denny Emmerson is my role model as a teacher. Peter Atkins sticks to his horses like nothing else and he always brings out the best from the underdog. Among the young guys Will Coleman gets it and he will be a top competitor if and when he gets enough sponsors.. Some amateus are really with it too - just watch Elizabeth Barron ride. But they are few and far between.

I have just pointed out a general trend that I have come across with and I am trying to discuss it. The emphasis is on discussion.. I feel I have a legitimate point here and I do not appreciate people accusing me of ill will, "hurt feelings" or similar nonsense.

Also, if some of you think that my horses are not suitable for eventing, I would just like to invite you either to my farm or come and see me at some of the shows. Most of the horses that I like to work with are 60-90% TB and very forward. Forwardness means that the horse is super responsive to the SLIGHT legaid and the horse NEVER questions the legaid. After the legaid is given, the horse goes forward on his/her own at the requited tempo until the rider gives the horse another aid, whether driving or restricting. But RELAXATION is the #1 step in training and if someone does not agree with it, unfortunately that person does not understand the principles of riding horses. And I do not think it is an arrogant statement.

Andras www.prairiepinesfarm.com

szipi
Jan. 18, 2008, 08:08 AM
Totally agree. I am also horse shopping right now, and have a few "excuses" I use when I know it is not the horse for me. One of them is "too green" or "too much horse for me". Really, it is usually because they do not correspond with the ideal I have in my head (but I feel mean saying that). And for 20,000+ I'm going to be picky. I must say though, I think your horses are gorgeous, but do look like they would suit the h/j or dressage mold better than eventer. Also, keep in mind most eventers don't spend near the amount of cash as h/j and dressage riders's do on their horses, we get a lot of ours cheap and off the track, so when we are spending big bucks we are really looking for that ideal Rolex contender. JMO (and I am NO trainer).

I understand that cost is an underlying issue and that usually eventers do not like to spend the dollars. On the other hand, you have to agree, you will have to spend money for quality. The problem is, that everybody is full of preconceptions....like you determined off of some pictures that my horses would not be suitable for eventing. How would you know unless you ride horses like that? It's easy to dismiss if you never had a chance to ride a top quality horse with top caliber training.

1) Eventers are not really sophisticated about breeding an bloodlines YET (there is a positive trend there though). Perfect example: My stallion, Lotus T was named potentially the best event sire in North America by the USEA magazine in n article in 2004 because of his bloodlines (70% TB), his international caliber dressage gaits and his jumping ability. Did I get bookings from event breeders? Of course, not. But when I had him at a H/J show at a place with corss-country jumps and I was lunging him over some intermediate jumps as a warmup before my jumper classes, then I got a bunch of breedings from eventers......regardless of his bloodlines or suitability, determined by magazine ads and pictures. Another example is: would you have bought Theodore O'Connor as a 3 YO as a top event prospect?

2) Quality is not just derermined by how fast they run, but there is a determining factor of basic gaits, jumping talent and character. There are positive trends here as well. Unfortunately, the prevailing trend is that if the horse gets over on the other side of the fence, it's all good. Unfortunately, as you go up the levels, lots of people realize that form and function are closely related.

3) At the top level (yes, even at the Rolex), there are horses that don't look too comfortable, even when they get around OK. I think there would be a lot fewer mishaps if they would only allow horses go cross-country, who at least score a 50 in dressage. That is 50% in terms of a dressage score, which is lover than the bare minimum considered to be acceptable. And this comment probbaly opens up a can of worms, but I am asking you to look at the statement. Isn't a dressage test that scores 50 painful to watch?

Andras www.prairiepinesfarm.com

Whisper
Jan. 18, 2008, 09:36 AM
Naturally, my youngsters are very relaxed and calm, even when they gallop or jump. Every time an event trainer/rider checks these horses out, they are very dissatisfied because they think these horses do not have "fire" or do not have "what it takes to event". In my translation it means: "I have no clue how to train a horse, period and an even horse should be stiff, crooked, tense and charge the fences hundred miles an hour while being ridden and jumped". Do all eventers think thatmental and physical RELAXATION is the basis of all training?
I think you're really jumping to conclusions in a way that no-one else has directly addressed yet. I've jumped (especially H/J) on quite a few horses who were relaxed, forward, and perfectly willing to go. They didn't lock on in quite such an enthusiastic "Oh, boy, we get to jump" way as the two eventers I leased in the past couple of years. It's certainly not about speed, they did the same thing at the trot, or in a slow canter with impulsion, and on the relatively few occasions where they did rush and get tense/crooked, I *didn't* get that live-wire "on" feeling. I am still very much learning the basics, and in spite of my sometimes messing up, they both made it very clear that they were not only willing to do the job, but *REALLY WANTED* to do it, almost every single time we came to a fence, especially on XC. I think the trainers you are referring to want that attitude, that feeling of heart. It isn't about what they're physically doing, it's very much an emotional impression for lack of a better way of putting it.

I'd be perfectly willing to do H/J type fences in the ring on a horse without that attitude, and at my current level, could even school XC and compete in HTs without it. If I were going to *buy* a horse, I'd want one who gave me that sense of heart/enthusiasm/delight that we're jumping.

purplnurpl
Jan. 18, 2008, 09:50 AM
A dear friend of mine has a beautiful gray TB gelding who is has half the fire of my Irish sport horse.
That being said, I like a horse with a bit more fire. But that's just me. My dear friends horse is absolutley amazing and loves his job but goes about it like the turtle in the tortoise and the hare. Slow and steady wins the race. We could all learn a thing or two from horses and riders like these.


Kaboom is an excellet example.
1/2 the fire? He has very little fire. I have many a picture of him over large fences with his eyes shut. And I usually have get him up from his nap before each phase.
Thankfully my new guy has some go. He's a little TB pistol. It's a nice change. I like riding both types of horses.

All riders and trainers have their type that they like.
I enjoy a horse with a little more go for sure. But I'll work with what I have. lol. Oh gee darn bend my arm.

As to be said for the quiet horse I ride. People make fun of me and stand on the fence side and laugh.
But this lazy, dumpy hunter has been in the top 4 of fastest times on both of his outs (my 1st outs) at Prelim with me riding conservatively. And he has yet to 'turn it on' or even put out a grunting effort over a fence.

So no, a 'free runner' is not needed. But it takes diligent, patient, physically strong riders to kick all the way around for sure. Most, if given the option, would rather not work that hard. Especially when riding many horses at a HT.

Look at Leslie Law and Darien Powers. Talk about a kick every stride around the course kind of horse.
That said they have been a VERY successful pair.

lstevenson
Jan. 18, 2008, 10:44 AM
I In my experience most of the top level event riders, while they talk the talk, they ride the 3 disciplines as 3 different sports, instead of understanding the connection between them.



No, THIS is the arrogant (and ignorant) statement. You think that the top riders don't understand the connection between the phases, but YOU do? And you don't even event. :lol:

Heinz 57
Jan. 18, 2008, 01:41 PM
I understand that cost is an underlying issue and that usually eventers do not like to spend the dollars. On the other hand, you have to agree, you will have to spend money for quality. The problem is, that everybody is full of preconceptions....like you determined off of some pictures that my horses would not be suitable for eventing. How would you know unless you ride horses like that? It's easy to dismiss if you never had a chance to ride a top quality horse with top caliber training.
Andras www.prairiepinesfarm.com

Eventers don't like to spend dollars on horses that haven't been PROVEN. Your advertisements for your sale horses say nothing about any competition record at events, and while they may be great GP or FEI prospects, that does not automatically also make it an upper level event prospect. For $30K, it either needs to be an upper level prospect or have a very successful competition record at N-T at the VERY least, likely with the potential to go prelim-intermediate and win.

If you want the highest profit, stick to marketing your horses toward H/J's.

szipi
Jan. 18, 2008, 01:44 PM
No, THIS is the arrogant (and ignorant) statement. You think that the top riders don't understand the connection between the phases, but YOU do? And you don't even event. :lol:

I am not sure where you got your information from. I do event when the situation calls for it and all my young horses, including the dressage horses have to school at least training level cross-country. I also coach a few very good amateur (and a couple of pro) eventers. As a proficient and European educated trainer, I have to be profficient in all phases of the olympic equestrian sports, including eventing. I would like to invite you to see how much I can not ride cross country.
These kind of close-minded comments are the reason why a lot of riders do not improve: when someone points out that something needs to be improved, they attack that person, rather than discussing their point based on facts and proper principles. I am not sure how i was able to offent you to invoke such a vicious attack - it was not ment to be personal.
www.prairiepinesfarm.com

lstevenson
Jan. 18, 2008, 02:16 PM
I am not sure where you got your information from. I do event when the situation calls for it and all my young horses, including the dressage horses have to school at least training level cross-country. I also coach a few very good amateur (and a couple of pro) eventers. As a proficient and European educated trainer, I have to be profficient in all phases of the olympic equestrian sports, including eventing. I would like to invite you to see how much I can not ride cross country.
These kind of close-minded comments are the reason why a lot of riders do not improve: when someone points out that something needs to be improved, they attack that person, rather than discussing their point based on facts and proper principles. I am not sure how i was able to offent you to invoke such a vicious attack - it was not ment to be personal.
www.prairiepinesfarm.com (http://www.prairiepinesfarm.com)


Here's where I got my information from: http://www.useventing.com/competitions.php?id=214&rider_id=118041


And where do you see a vicious attack? I just think it's really funny that you could criticize upper level event riders about anything when you haven't proven yourself to be an "expert" at eventing at all. That's all. :)

BigRuss1996
Jan. 18, 2008, 02:16 PM
Yes ...he has evented it looks like twice ..... Here are last years results. Oh by the way your membership is expired..




2007-05-05 - Poplar Place Farm May H.T. (GA) Area 3

NoviceNH (Starters: 25)
Akos / Andras Szieberth (FL) Dress 30.00 Stad time0.00 Stad jum 0.00 xco time0.40 xc jump 80.00 final score110.40 final placing 24 0.0


2007-03-09 - Jumping Branch Farm H.T. (SC) Area 3

Beginner NoviceOBNC (Starters: 15)
Akos / Andras Szieberth (FL) Dress 24.20 stad time 0.00 stadium jump 0.00 xco time 7.20 xco jump 0.00 final score 31.40 final placing 1 USEA points 6.0

Tucked_Away
Jan. 18, 2008, 02:34 PM
xc jump 80.00

Not to hijack, but...how would one get 80 penalties on XC? First stop 20 + second stop 40 = 60. Where would the other 20 come from? Willful delay? (If the time faults in question were under-time, not over-?)

(Doesn't matter to me what happened in the OP's particular care; I'm just trying to make sense of the math.)

Janet
Jan. 18, 2008, 02:45 PM
Not to hijack, but...how would one get 80 penalties on XC? First stop 20 + second stop 40 = 60. Where would the other 20 come from? Willful delay? (If the time faults in question were under-time, not over-?)

(Doesn't matter to me what happened in the OP's particular care; I'm just trying to make sense of the math.)
It is the second refusal AT THE SAME JUMP that is 40. If you have a second "first refusal" at another jump, it is 20.

So you could have 2 refusals (total 60) at jump 3, and 1 refusal (20) at jump 6.

Or you could have 4 "first refusals" at 4 different jumps.

Tucked_Away
Jan. 18, 2008, 02:51 PM
It is the second refusal AT THE SAME JUMP that is 40. If you have a second "first refusal" at another jump, it is 20.

So you could have 2 refusals (total 60) at jump 3, and 1 refusal (20) at jump 6.

Or you could have 4 "first refusals" at 4 different jumps.

Aha! All becomes clear.

(I even went and looked at the rulebook, but apparently not carefully enough.)

BigRuss1996
Jan. 18, 2008, 02:52 PM
Circling or a run out can also get you 20 penalties.....




Not to hijack, but...how would one get 80 penalties on XC? First stop 20 + second stop 40 = 60. Where would the other 20 come from? Willful delay? (If the time faults in question were under-time, not over-?)

(Doesn't matter to me what happened in the OP's particular care; I'm just trying to make sense of the math.)

CookiePony
Jan. 18, 2008, 02:56 PM
Or you could have 4 "first refusals" at 4 different jumps.

But wouldn't that be elimination in 2007?

flshgordon
Jan. 18, 2008, 03:24 PM
Ha, sounds like this ridiculously self promoting thread my interest a buyer or two.
:lol: :lol: :lol: I haven't seen anything this ridiculously self promoting since the last time he shot his mouth off on the SHB forum about all the wrongs that have been done to him.

One would think since he is the best jumper and eventing trainer around that all his horses would be sold before they even hit the sales page....:winkgrin:

rabicon
Jan. 18, 2008, 03:41 PM
now its on to jumpers in the h/j forum. :no:

Janet
Jan. 18, 2008, 03:47 PM
But wouldn't that be elimination in 2007?
True.
So it is probably 2 refusals at one, an one at another.

flyingchange
Jan. 18, 2008, 03:57 PM
As a proficient and European educated trainer, I have to be profficient in all phases of the olympic equestrian sports, including eventing.
www.prairiepinesfarm.com (http://www.prairiepinesfarm.com)

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

I've known your type before. You guys are all so full of $HIT!!!!

rabicon
Jan. 18, 2008, 03:59 PM
Not to be an irrantant but what level do you ride. I see you give clinics and what not but what level is the highest you have competed in jumpers, hunters, dressage, and eventing?? Just my on curiosity.:yes: Oh yea and where did you place? Thanks

BigRuss1996
Jan. 18, 2008, 05:31 PM
We eventers weren't impressed enough with his riding so he seems to have moved onto the H/J forum:

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=130539

hey101
Jan. 18, 2008, 05:37 PM
We eventers weren't impressed enough with his riding so he seems to have moved onto the H/J forum:

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=130539

:lol::lol:

Darn, you guys scared him off! I was actually thinking this had the makings of the rare-and-elusive Eventing forum trainwreck! (it's Friday and slow at work today- I was just about to finish microwaving the popcorn :D)

His horses ARE gorgeous, but I have to admit I snarfed when I saw that the very first photo on his website showed a rider jumping way ahead and legs all over the place. And ~he~ is going to tell the likes of you all how to ride? :lol::lol:

rabicon
Jan. 18, 2008, 06:25 PM
I'm still waiting on hearing what actual shows besides psj has he showed at and at what level. hmmmm hmmm hmm hm. Oh I said earlier he was on the h/j forum now and not liking what he is hearing there I don't think either, but there he has not commented back. Like I said before though he does have beautiful horses but it seems like he is trying to sell them on here by saying his are so much better than others and go nice and easy and then type his website. Thats the main thing that aggreviated me.

szipi
Jan. 19, 2008, 09:29 AM
I'm still waiting on hearing what actual shows besides psj has he showed at and at what level. hmmmm hmmm hmm hm. Oh I said earlier he was on the h/j forum now and not liking what he is hearing there I don't think either, but there he has not commented back. Like I said before though he does have beautiful horses but it seems like he is trying to sell them on here by saying his are so much better than others and go nice and easy and then type his website. Thats the main thing that aggreviated me.

I still do not get some of you. I always mean what I say and always say what I mean. i just want to generate some thoughts across the board because the underlying truth is that correct, basic, classical training is the essence of all sports.

I have always signed my posts with my website -as a lot of the folks here. If you think I only show at the PSJ, you are wrong. And because I own my own horses, bring them up from babies, I do not always have the means to keep them until they reach the top. Sometimes i do not show for a few months - because it is more important for me to train my horses correctly. But, unlike most trainers, I am not beating the stinging nettle with somebody else's dick.

I think it's not my website address what aggravated you, but the fact that I might have a little truth in what I am saying.

Andras

Beam Me Up
Jan. 19, 2008, 10:08 AM
People are getting angry because you are insulting their riding/training/eventing knowledge for not buying your horses. Not buying your horse doesn't mean that someone doesn't understand the relationship between eventing disciplines.

Anyway, when you are selling, you are going to find people who don't like or get along with your horse, for whatever reason. It could be because they have a type that is different (maybe they are mostly an OTTB person) , or just not the right chemistry, whatever. Don't sweat it--it isn't a reflection on your or your program--wait for the right person who will do great things with the horse.

If you are consistently receiving this feedback from top level eventers, then it sounds like what you are producing isn't a good fit with the event market. If this is the case, you have a few options:

1. Forget 'em--Seriously. Your horses are stunning, appear well-trained, will obviously be snapped up by someone. Eventers have a lot less money and a lot more requirements on horses they buy, many are not warmblood fans, so maybe focus your energy on marketing to other, more lucrative markets.

2. Change their minds. Not by posting on COTH that none of them know a good horse when they see one but by highlighting their eventing ability/potential. Have you gotten any of them out eventing at higher levels? Or have you sold any that went onto become upper level eventers? Advertise it! Sure, we eventers are not as focused on lines as a lot of the dressage people, but if you are selling a half-sib to "blah-blah-blah" known upper level horse, people will perk up and take notice. The event world is very small.

3. Adapt. If you really want to sell to eventers, and eventers are consistently telling you that your horses are the wrong type, you could try breeding 1 or 2 of a lighter type and see what happens.

I understand how frustrating it is to try to sell horses and get the dumbest reasons as to why yours won't work, but generally you probably knew it wasn't a match from watching them. And I suppose if large numbers are giving you the same feedback, it at least gives you insight into what that market, in this case the "top eventer" market is looking for. Then you have to decide what, if anything, to do with that information.

lstevenson
Jan. 19, 2008, 12:48 PM
I think it's not my website address what aggravated you, but the fact that I might have a little truth in what I am saying.



Think again. While there is some bad riding and training in all of the horse sports, there is no truth at all in your assessment of upper level eventers. They absolutely understand the relationship between the phases. And their horses are absolutely well trained, focused, and trust their riders. They are competitors who can get excited about their jobs as cross country is very exciting. It is NOT desirable for an Advanced level horse to go around cross country like a hunter. If you had experience doing it, you would know why.

And I for one could care less that you put your website on your posts (although I'm suprised the mods allow it in this context, since you are advertising horses for sale). It sounds like business is bad and you are frustrated, and I truely am sorry about that. But if you think you are going to drum up business by insulting the top riders of eventing (and show jumping on the H/J forums), well... let's just say you probably won't see anything good come out of that. ;)

I honestly think by the look of your horses, and what you have said that eventers have said about them, that you would do best keeping their marketing in the H/J world. Good luck.

~Freedom~
Jan. 19, 2008, 01:00 PM
I still do not get some of you. I always mean what I say and always say what I mean. i just want to generate some thoughts across the board because the underlying truth is that correct, basic, classical training is the essence of all sports.
Andras

I agree but usually if you are in the business of selling or promoting horses it bodes well if you have some sense of public relations. Maybe you need PR counseling because what you are coming across as, is a pompous a$$.

2LaZ2race
Jan. 19, 2008, 11:19 PM
Can we all just ignore him... go down to our local race track and pick up some future event champions for about... $1 :cool: