Saddle shopping. Rocket Science, or... What now?

[Tuff Tilly]

OKay. I am very very frustrated. I have been shopping for a dressage saddle for well over a year now. Near a year and a half ago I had the saddle picked out and found a super deal on eBay. Purchased it Sept 2006. Was scammed. I took all sorts of precautions, I asked the seller questions prior to bidding, I even CALLED and spoke to her over the phone, she had lots of good feedback hundreds and was in the 98+ percentage for positive. Anyway I was out a good chunk of money and eBay was no help recovering any of it.

Squirreled money for several months more. Fast forward to March 2007. I trialed 3 different saddles from various online used saddle sites. A Stubben, a Courbette, and a Bates/Wintec. The Stubben actually fit the mare the best, though it bridged slightly. It was a 31.5 CM tree, the Scandica. It HURT me to ride in it. Seat was large enough but the twist, um yeah, not fun. The Courbette, a Charles De Kunffy, briged on my mares back and was like riding a spring. I generally have a decent seat at best but this thing bounced me all over the place. I dont't know if it was the fit or the saddle. It got returned. The bates. I liked it, but again the twist not so great, and the mare HATED Cair. Also it squeaked. Sure it was used, and you can't be too nitpicky, but it wasn't a good ride.

This fall, headed out to a local tack consignment and trialed three more saddles. Another Stubben (Siegfried VSD), a Lovatt and Rickets and an older Passier. Again none worked, all with various tree sizes. Some settled nicely on the mares shoulders but bridged, or came up in the back others perched. Some didn't fit me quite right, or I felt insecure in them. They just were not THE saddle.

Well lo and behold in December I am on the hunt again for a Christmas/New Year's present to myself and my mare and I find a lovely Duett Encore just begging to be purchased. Brand new (just demo-ed twice, but never ridden in) for too good to be true price. 32cm tree on a saddle specifically built for wide horses! "I AM IN LUCK!" I thought to myself. I hemed and hawed, asked for some measurements on it and finally caved and bought it. I was so excited but nervous it would be TOO wide for Tricky Mare.

The saddle arrived today and I am utterly exhuasted. It does not fit! It seems far too narrow in the front and is bridging a bit on her back. It almost looks propped up on her back. I took the kneeblocks out, buckled it on good and decided to have a go in it anyway, at least walk around in it to see how it felt. I am in love. This saddle was made for me. The twist is perfect. It lets me drop my leg nicely and I actually sit up in it instead of it tipping me one way or another. Not only that but I felt so secure without being held in place. I only rode in it for 20 minutes but I am absolutely in love with this saddle. But it does not fit the mare! Can anything be done to adjust it to fit her? Or am I going to have to go on the hunt for a wider tree and have to find some way to get rid of this one? I am so distraught right now. I never should've sat in it because now I want to keep it!

[mbm]

do you have a saddler or saddle fitter in your arena that can help you? flocking saddles can change how they fit the horse..... and many trees can be widened.

[jester1113]

Fit issues aside, did you do more than walk? I'm on my seventh or eighth demo saddle and I find that I like most of them at a walk, but trotting around is a whole 'nother story...

[Brady'smom]

Where does it not fit? Certainly flocking can be added/removed to reposition things, if it is pinching or missing somewhere. Tell us. I SOOO sympathize. When you find the saddle that feels like it was made for you (I too like a narrow twist) all is right with the world.

[marta]

i caved in this november after 2 years of saddle issues and got myself a real life certified saddle fitter to come for a consultation. i raved about the experience on COTH so you may have read one of my posts.
anyway, the bottom line is that my mare is a fitting nightmare and without the help of a qualified fitter i'd probably never figure it out on my own.
so do yourself a favor and find a good certified fitter in your area to come out and work with you. it may be that your saddle can be fit to your mare. it may turn out that it can't. but the bottom line is that without a well fitting saddle you're not going to get much riding so it's worth the investment.

btw, i found my saddle fitter through this website:http://www.mastersaddlers.co.uk/

[kashmere]

i'm almost certain that saddle shopping is harder than rocket science.

[pintopiaffe]

Well, the good news is if you know you like the fit for YOU, Nancy at Duett can probably help with the rest, even if it means trading this one toward another.

Sounds like you DO need a saddle fitter. I know it's a huge PITA, but some horses just don't fit 'off the shelf.' Since I have had to reenter the world of treed saddles, I have to fidget and fuss and take photos and measurements and send the saddle away to Sue Schurer in PA. She is WONDERful to deal with long distance.

I know *enough* about fitting, but cannot do the actual work myself.

One thing I *do* since I have no one nearby, is fit large, and use a sheepskin pad to make up the difference. This seems to nicely accomodate seasonal changes. My saddler knows this is how I fit and flocks accordingly. She has managed to make my treeless-only-fussy-princess of a stallion absolutely blissful in a 23yo Passier. Go figure.

Nancy at Duett WILL help you, even though you didn't buy from her. She is amazing. She also can refer you to saddle fitters who can work with you long distance.

I say stick with Duett, and either get this one adjusted, or trade it toward one that fits. :yes:

[Eclectic Horseman]

I never expect a saddle to fit "off the rack." I buy the best fit that I can find and then have the saddle fitter come out to customize it. When I first started to do it, I was amazed how reasonably priced it is to have a saddle reflocked. It is worth doing when you buy the saddle and then have it periodically checked as the horse's back changes.

[Tuff Tilly]

You guys are awesome! Really. I was feeling so discouraged and desperate last night when I got home I was ready to throw in the towel and just get a bareback pad and be done! :eek:

I am going to give Nancy a call at Duett. I've heard good things about the company as a whole which is part of the reason I picked up the Encore. It doesn't hurt that they make saddles specifically for wider horses. I would not mind trading it for credit towards a new saddle (that fits) in the least. Hopefully she'll be able to help sort me (and the mare) out.

This mare has been so tricky to fit! She's wider with a decent wither and slope to her back. So the wide saddles tend to hit her wither, and the narrower ones don't fit her shoulder. And lately we've been in consistant work so she's filled in and gained a good 200lbs over the last 4 months, according to my weight tape. Even in the wide saddles I've found the panels aren't quite right on her back and find a bit of bridging. The only saddle that didn't bridge even a bit was the Bates, but that Cair just didn't work for us and my seat was not a fan of the seat. Generally she's a "princess and the pea" sort of horse but lately I have to give her credit because she has put up with some really badly fitting saddles and just suffered through it while I got my ride in to see if I even liked the saddle. I don't want to be nitpicky and I don't want to feel like I'm wasting everyones time but this has just been a nightmare! With all the money I've spent shipping trial saddles, and the money I lost out on the first one, plus what I put into this Duett I could easily have afforded a nice Black County or something. ;) Hindsight is always 20/20 and funds were strapped in each instance but of course collectively they add up. It would probably be less expensive to find a saddle I liked and buy a new horse to suit it! ;) Would never do it, but it would probably be easier!

Unfortunately I haven't got a fitter in the area that isn't solely brand affiliated, that I'm aware of. I will ask around though. I do have a fantastic leatherwright who does quality full and partial reflocking for really inexpensive. I had my cross country saddle partially reflocked and the seat replaced last year and he did a wonderful job for a very economical price. So if this saddle will work, or even if we have to go up a tree size and have it flocked to suit, he can do it. I considered this option with the Courbette CdK, but ultimately decided I was better off finding something I could actually enjoy sitting in. I don't mind sending out for reflocking as well. At this point I'm willing to explore all options within my financial budget to get up and running in an actual dressage saddle that is both comfortable for the mare and myself. I'm so tired of trying to school in a close contact, or western saddle. It's just not the same. Besides, I'd like us to perhaps try a show or two at some point this year and it would be nice to at the very least look the part from a standstill. ;)

Thanks all for your input. I'm glad to know we're not the only ones! Which begs the question; If these saddles are not fitting our horses "off the rack", so to speak, why aren't the saddles being designed to fit more horses across the board? And also, who are these people who have horses that fit "off the rack" tack, and why do they have it so easy? ;)

[marta]

where are you located?
post in off course asking for saddle fitter recommendations in your area.
also, keep in mind that while my saddle fitter is affiliated with albion and duett, she will work with any saddle. in fact, she has about 100 saddles of different brands on her truck so that when she comes for a consult and you decide you need a new saddle, you can try various brands.

as far as making saddles that fit more horses, i don't know if that's possible. i think as riders we're in denial about the subtle differences in our horses' shapes which make it nearly impossible to find a saddle that will fit more than one horse well. my gf has a WB mare and you'd think not difficult to fit, but it turns out she's narrow in the front and wide in the back so her saddle has to accommodate that otherwise it doesn't fit.
i don't think that there too many horses (or arguably, any) that can fit a saddle of the rack. however, i think there are plenty of riders riding in will fitting saddles.
a young woman at my barn was tallking to me about wanting a new saddle. she's selling her current horse and leasing another. when i mentioned that a fitter will measure the horse and then pick the correct saddle, she said that her father wouldn't want to spend $ on that b/c it's only a lease. she just wants a saddle that will fit her, so that when the lease ends and she moves onto another horse, she can use the same saddle b/c (her words now) "the next horse will be pretty much the same shape" as the current one (?!!!!) clueless comes to mind!

good luck!

[pintopiaffe]

It would probably be less expensive to find a saddle I liked and buy a new horse to suit it!

:yes:

And I'm only *half* kidding!

I don't know why more saddles don't fit more horses... As a breeder I've had quite the moral dilemma since while my horses are very sound, sane, and athletic, they are also nightmares to fit. Well--now that there are Duetts, they are perhaps only bad dreams... but still... Should I be continuing a cross that I know produces these incredibly wide/flat backed horses? (not huge, mind you, just stupid to saddle fit)

Call Nancy or email her. There are several saddle fitters who will work long distance with you. Sue at www.schurersaddlefit.com is really excellent to work with, doesn't matter where you are. (tell her I sent you, ;) ) Sue does Duetts too. But she's not the only one. In this day of digital photos, faxes and videos, it's not all that difficult to do things 'from away.'

[TouchstoneAcres]

A 32 or 34 Encore is not very wide--my TB filly uses a 34 size. The best thing to do is make a tracing of your horses back and send it to a dealer before buying. It saves you much time and money to get it right the first time. There are instructions on my site and Nancy's. A new Encore is under $1200. But at least find the correct size before buying a used one so you know if it has a good chance of fitting. Some adjustment to the tree is possible but you want it to be close before adjustment.
http://touchstoneacres.com/27.html

[atr]

Most of the "brand-affiliated" saddle fitters will work with anything if you cross their palms with sufficient silver. And at least they've had some education.

[iownapaint]

A year ago I was on the search for "THE SADDLE" and I was convinced that it was in fact rocket science...so I went out and found some rocket scientists (aka saddle fitter and a very experienced saddle shop).

I went through Trumbull Mtn and got a Black Country. I sent them tracings and pictures and they sent me a couple saddles that were the most likely to be a match based on my horse's shape and my desires. My saddle fitter came and saw how things were sitting and made his recommendation and voila...a saddle that we both love.

Get thee some rocket scientists!

[Tuff Tilly]

I took photos tonight. After checking the saddle again and placing it further back than last night it seems the panels DO apply fairly even pressure. I still feel the tree is a bit narrow though. The saddle, to me, seems like it's too perched in the front. Yesterday's distress was a cumulation of a bad day and excitement over a new saddle that was squashed as soon as saddle met horse.

Side View (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v687/SkittleWoman/2008/January/100_0480.jpg)

Front View (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v687/SkittleWoman/2008/January/100_0481.jpg)

I am still planning to contact Nancy at Duett, thank you to those who suggested it. I do very much like the saddle and tonights ride confirmed that this particular model and I get on very well.

As to the saddle fitter. I would love to have one out to check the saddle over and help me fix it. Unfortunately the only woman I know of in the area I will not contact to do it. I've used her before as a resource and even laced her palm with silver for help and while she has helped me her attitude said to me that she didn't want to do it. I felt like she considered me a waste if I wasn't going to purchase a saddle through her along with several hundreds of dollars of fittings to go with it (she owns a small high end tack store as well). I'd rather do fitting by mail order and play snail mail tag than be made to feel inferior because I wasn't purchasing something other than services. I will ask around and see if there is someone else in my area to do it though, there are a couple of small english oriented tack shops here in the midst of cowboy country.

[kansasgal]

One of my best horsey friends is very E-bay savvy, and has helped me out. I have always either broken even or made money on the used saddles I've sold.
I've been keeping my eye out for Duett saddles on E-bay, and I bet if this one doesn't work out, you'd be able to at least break even by selling it there.
Spring is coming, and there are plenty of people on the lookout for saddles.

BTW, I have just finished trying out a 34 CM Encore, and it fits the Morgan mare that I ride in lessons very well. The first time I sat in it, I was in love. I walked and trotted a couple of timer aound the arena, and it felt wonderful.
Today I took a lesson in it, and I'm not so sure. I think that the saddle may have been a bit too far back? I was having trouble keeping my legs underneath me.... they would drift back behind where they needed to be.... I need to do some fiddling around with placement, and give it one more try.
The best part is that the tack shop owner noticed a couple of teeny tiney scuffs on the saddle when she was getting it ready to send, and mark the price down $200.

So if in the near future, I decide it's not the saddle for me, I feel pretty confident that I can get most of my money back by selling on E-bay......

Good luck with your mare! If you get a chance to give us an update on how things turned out, that would be great.

Best wishes from Kansas.

[jn4jenny]

Tuff Tilly - the pictures suggest that you're on the right track. If you're not familiar with the tree markings on a Duett, 32cm is like a medium in most other brands, 34cm is like a medium-wide, and you're not really talking about a wide until you hit 36cm (Nancy's saddles go on up into the 40's for really extreme cases).

It looks like you could easily trade in this Encore for a wider one that would fit.

Don't be afraid to mention budget woes to Nancy. She is happy to scrounge her "scratch/dent/returned/demo/trade-in" inventory.

[SaddleFitterVA]

At an internet glance that saddle looks too narrow.

I would like to point out that any place that allows "trade ins" of a saddle is being exceptionally generous. I would probably ask if they would sell the other saddle on consignment if you didn't want to deal with it.

As for saddle fitters NOT affiliated with specific saddles, I can tell you from personal experience that NOT selling any saddles is more difficult for the consumer than being able to offer at least something.

When I sold saddles, I was affiliated with Albion, and I would not PUSH them, but I knew the Albion product lines well. I knew what would work for the horse and could help the customer choose something that worked.

The business model did not work for me though, I had to carry an inventory of 8 saddles that I owned as demo saddles. If they retired a model, I needed to sell my demos and buy new models. It became apparent to me after not too many years that I would not come close to replacing my income from my office job, and so maintaining $15,000 and UP in saddles and other accessories was not a good financial decision for me. So, I quit selling saddles. I would do fitting and flocking and if a customer had nothing in mind, I could send them to another saddle fitter to buy a new saddle, or have them shop around for various used saddles, but that is too time consuming.

Now, I am going to say that IMO, buying a saddle off of eBay, when you have NOT had a fitter in to recommend a specific size/model of a specific saddle...that is not rocket science, that is a crap shoot. A gamble.

And, when/if I need a new saddle, odds are good I'll call one of my former colleagues, have them bring out the demo models, try them, and then buy the correct size from them (or at the least, pay the shipping on demo saddles to try). I know how to fit, but I don't know the finer fitting points of the current saddle models. How is that tree shaped?

Last, if your horse is gaining/losing 200 lbs in 4 months, don't expect the saddle to fit at both ends of that weight spectrum. It *might*. But don't expect it. And don't expect the saddle fitter to be a fortune teller about the final size the horse will need. And, the saddle fitter/tack store should not be expected to not charge a fee because your horse keeps changing.

There is one horse who we have in my barn who came, we rode him in a medium tree saddle for 6 weeks, he muscled to a MW, got a bit tubby, ended up in a XW, owner bought a 36 cm Duett, that fit for a while, but has ended up a touch too wide. This was all in less than a year.

Then I have my gelding, who has always been in a medium tree (which is pretty narrow) but now uses a sheepskin pad because he is older now.

I personally look at the BACK of a horse before I consider buying it. I see some shapes and know I don't want to deal with the morphing shape that is inevitable. Or the shapes that are nearly impossible to fit.

[iownapaint]

To me, that saddle is a tiny bit narrow already and with work it'll probably be significantly too narrow in a few months. I'm saying that based off of the front view picture. I would rather see the tree points and flap match the curve of the horse better than what that saddle is doing.

Talk to Nancy, see what she has to say. I bet she'll get you into something that will fit better and last longer than what you've got now.

[marta]

it's not level which can be seen in the sideview photo.

[Lora]

See if there is a County rep in your area - they have a web site - Our County rep doesn't push his saddles, he works with what you have.

[marta]

See if there is a County rep in your area - they have a web site - Our County rep doesn't push his saddles, he works with what you have.

that has not been my experience with our county rep:(

[iownapaint]

that has not been my experience with our county rep:(

Same here, although different region and therefore different County rep.

[Bogie]

Definitely too narrow . . . if you are not familiar with how a particular brand fits, buying one off of ebay is a crapshoot.

I think you do need a saddle fitter. I've worked with one for several years and it's helped me develop a better eye for fitting a saddle and a better understanding of how a saddle can be adjusted.

Saddle fitting is frustrating because different brands just fit differently, so you can't assume that a medium tree is the same among several saddles.

[Sabovee]

that has not been my experience with our county rep:(

Same here. I had such a bad experience with those saddles I wouldn't own one if you paid me :)

[lstevenson]

i'm almost certain that saddle shopping is harder than rocket science.



:lol: After all I've been through lately, I agree with this!