Thanks for you information

[yikes123]

I deleted my post since I see from some of you that what I was discussing is not the norm and others of you want to cause an attack on someone just interested in learning more about the dressage way. I have found the answers I am looking for

[partlycloudy]

None of the above is normal, except for the boots while being worked. The rest is just crazya@@ed stuff.

[dkcbr]

Nope, not typical or normal. ;)

One of your items has me interested:

ften they were lunged in double bridles with draw reins very tight

I can't help asking, how was this accomplished? How did they secure the draw reins without rider hands holding them - I can't visualize this. Are you sure that's what you saw? :confused:

[JRG]

Boots..yes, the rest of the stuff ODD!

[dkcbr]

very dry and flat with grass.

Grass!? What area of what country was this?

[dkcbr]

ll of the horses are 6 figures animals.

As in, at least $100million? Are you sure? How do you know the prices of all these lame animals? :confused:

[dkcbr]

owner who is 26 and gets her info on the internet.

How do you know where the owner gets her info? :confused:

[ESG]

The trolls are coming out early this year........................:uhoh:

[cuatx67]

I just feel bad for these horses. I am an experienced horse person who trains in a different disipline and though I already know the answers to most of the above I want to hear from you. Thanks

Trolls indeed!
If you already know the answers then why post??

[AnotherRound]

Sounds like lame and sore horses getting alot of walking and short works and lots of vet visits and no turnout, but lots of hand walking. Probably a rehab place!

Since the OP already knows what he WANTS to hear from us, why post?

Alot of fallacy in that OP.

[Happy Feet]

I don't think the OP isn't making this up, as I have a feeling I know what barn you just spent time at.....

In Europe they do walk horses on concrete regularly, not done much here, the walkers are common but somewhat less so in dressage barns. Lunging horses in doubles and draw reins shouldn't be done anywhere.

[STF]

This is not the normal.
Not sure where you were, but this is not how a lot of trainers I know deal with things.
Sorry you got THAT experience.

[MistyBlue]

As in, at least $100million? Are you sure?
6 figures is $100,000, not $100,000,000. :winkgrin:
I'm not great at numbers either...but I thought $100 million sounded like it should have a *lot* more zeros on it than 6 total numbers. :)

[rebecca yount]

Hand walking on concrete will not MAKE horses lame and will not hurt them. In fact none of the things you mentioned regarding walking, including the use of boots, will hurt them.

If the people want to wrap their horses' legs how is that any of your concern? Lots of people choose to do this. Maybe not most, and maybe not me and you, but it will not hurt the horses.

How do you know the cost of the horses? How do you know the "starch" content of the grain?

I doubt if there were really "a million" supplements in the feed. If you are exaggerating on that point, maybe you are exaggerating or misinformed on other points?

We may not all agree with the practices you mention. However, since it is not our barn and our horses, I don't really see where it is any of our business. This is still a free country and unless the horses are being abused or starved I am sure the owners can decide for themselves what to do.

If this were my barn and I found out you had visited (under what circumstances) and then were publishing critical comments on the internet, you would NOT be invited back.

MYOB.

[SaddleFitterVA]

I bet the "draw reins" may have been vienna reins.

Glad someone else caught that 6 figures is 100,000 not 100,000,000. :lol:

I've been in a few big dressage barns and while the horse keeping is often not my style, it is not abusive (the ones I've been at).

[rebecca yount]

It is not appropriate for a veterinarian to discuss with a third party the feeding, medication practices, or management of someone else's horses.

If you have horses and a barn, then of course you would not want to keep your own horses this way, I presume. But I think you said you were visiting this barn and they were not your horses.

Being a busybody usually does not benefit anyone. The tone and language of your OP did not suggest that you were seeking information. It suggested that you were being a busybody.

If you have questions as to why the horses were treated this way, why not ask their owners?

Many people in many disciplines manage their horses very differently than you or I would. That doesn't mean it is "wrong".

[freestyle2music]

Hand walking on concrete will not MAKE horses lame and will not hurt them. In fact none of the things you mentioned regarding walking, including the use of boots, will hurt them.

If the people want to wrap their horses' legs how is that any of your concern? Lots of people choose to do this. Maybe not most, and maybe not me and you, but it will not hurt the horses.

How do you know the cost of the horses? How do you know the "starch" content of the grain?

I doubt if there were really "a million" supplements in the feed. If you are exaggerating on that point, maybe you are exaggerating or misinformed on other points?

We may not all agree with the practices you mention. However, since it is not our barn and our horses, I don't really see where it is any of our business. This is still a free country and unless the horses are being abused or starved I am sure the owners can decide for themselves what to do.

If this were my barn and I found out you had visited (under what circumstances) and then were publishing critical comments on the internet, you would NOT be invited back.

MYOB.

Rebecca I totaly agree with you !

Which horses ? . Were they just before a competition ? Build of the Horse ? Size of the Horse ? Breeding of the Horse ? Age of the horse ? Habbits of the horses ?

Working a horse on concrete solid grounds for 30-40 minutes is very good for their bonestructure and can tell you everything about injuries. That's why they do the vet-check on concrete soil. We hate tredmills, but we might be the only one over here, we call these tredmills "lazy people machines" . We rather take a bike and start travelling around with the boys (we have only stallions).

We feed all our competition horses 5 times a day, and depending on the horse they get some kind of supplements. In between (when the kids come out of school) they feed them kiwis, bananas, apples or carrots, just what they fancy). And when I have time I feed them apple-pie, and yes they recognise the sound of my car. Every day we play another kind of music in their stables, and we celebrate every birthday of a horse in the stables, and yes they like champagne. When they don't have to go to a competition within three weeks, we send them out in the pasture with some toys and a bunch of shetlander-ponys.

Next to the things I mentioned above I don't see anything wrong in this approach.

[yikes123]

It is not appropriate for a veterinarian to discuss with a third party the feeding, medication practices, or management of someone else's horses.

If you have horses and a barn, then of course you would not want to keep your own horses this way, I presume. But I think you said you were visiting this barn and they were not your horses.

Being a busybody usually does not benefit anyone. The tone and language of your OP did not suggest that you were seeking information. It suggested that you were being a busybody.

If you have questions as to why the horses were treated this way, why not ask their owners?

Many people in many disciplines manage their horses very differently than you or I would. That doesn't mean it is "wrong".


I am asking the dressage community as a whole to seek information on their practices. I did speak to the owner. You are assuming some things that you should'nt. Again, I've made my intention VERY clear. I am just interested in what is and is not the norm for dressage horses. I'm not sure why you can't just let it go at that. There is no need to attack my questions. I am not being a busybody as you say. It sounds to me like you are trying to be one with your tone. Sorry to have potentially offended you but, as I repeat I'm just asking some basic questions based on something I saw to increase my knowledge. If you can't handle it then don't post.

[slc2]

I was very uncomfortable with the questions as well. It didn't sound like the intent was to open discussion on horse management at all, but to make the barn manager and owner look bad in public. The OP may be very upset at how this is being responded to, but Rebecca isn't the only one that was not comfortable with this. Your descriptions are so peppered with 'feeling' adjectives that color how anyone would respond...with the way you wrote it, it's very slanted to get people to agree with you that the horses are managed incorrectly.

You said the horses were 'tense'...another person might go and say the horses were full of energy and very healthy and eager to work.

You said they got 'millions' of supplements...another person might say each horse received an individually taylored diet.

You said horses were lame...another person might say that after their competitive career was over, instead of being uncaringly sold 'down the road' the horses were carefully maintained with a meticulous exercise and diet to keep them comfortable.

The 'feeling' words you use are very slanted to the picture you want people to have of the place.

If you really want to learn something, you could avoid discussing a specific farm, or you would avoid all the 'feeling' words.

You could say, 'I saw horses walked on a hard surface the other day...has anyone else any information about 'legging up' horses this way'?

You could discuss management practices in general, and let various people say their opinions. You will see, as on most topics here, that beliefs on how horses should be managed vary widely. Most likely, horses are far more flexible than their owners :).

For years when country roads had lighter traffic many different types of sport horsemen took great pains to walk their horses on the roads for several hours a day to strengthen their legs and feet, so did most cavalries, many old photos of cavalry riders working horses show them on the road (compacted from use if not paved), leading one horse and riding another and knee boots on the horses. That is how the horses were worked for a certain portion of their exercise.

Niggli's book on the Olympics shows American cavalry officers who competed in the old Olympics working their horses this way. Many good books like Haye's Stable Management and Exercise discuss road work at a walk for horses.

Modern research has shown that slow work on a hard surface benefits horses. It increases bone density and tendon and ligament structure is improved. The key is finding a good surface and a safe area, and combining it with other exercise in the right proportions.

I've seen people read the research and apply it incorrectly (like the sore footed horse that was longed at a strong trot on gravel and got MORE sore footed), but the description above sounds like it's being appropriately applied.

I'd suggest asking questions and trying to learn, there is a wealth of information out there.

[Whisper]

Except for the longeing in draw reins/double bridle, a lot of those things are pretty typical for this time of year. Often the arena is flooded, so people handwalk/ride on the driveway/paths around the barn. Horses aren't turned out so they won't rip up muddy pastures. If they have a hotwalker with good footing, they might well use it. You said that they have grassy dry fields, so it doesn't sound like those measures are necessary at that barn, but in and of themselves, I wouldn't be shocked by them or by lots of supplements. None of those things are specific to dressage. I agree that the vet shouldn't discuss the horse's medical issues without the owners' consent.

[Velvet]

Sorry, Rebecca, but I've reached a conclussion in my life (after many years of working with horses in various barns/environments, from the lowly $500 horse to many in the six figures), and that is: Horses need to be horses.

Just because you spend a lot of money on a horse doesn't mean that you should put it in bubble wrap and treat it like it's glass or porcelain. Horses are not figurines. They are living, breathing animals with a lot of spirit. They not only need to have some time with other horses, they also need to be out in a field and be a horse.

So, whether or not the OP is a garage gnome or a busy body, I still say that the treatment of the horses is not something I would condone. (If we're talking horses on a long road to recovery after sustaining an injury, that is an exception. If we're talking about a way of managing sound horses on a daily basis, using this program, then I disagree. Especially if it's driven by paranoia. If you can't afford to lose the money, don't spend it--especially not on a horse.)

Then again, that's JMHO. ;)

[freestyle2music]

I was told the owner gets the info from the internet.


The owners buys six figure horses and seeks his info how to raise, train and handle them on the Internet :confused:

[Velvet]

Just saw that the OP changed this thread. To the OP, please do not start another nevermind thread. I think this board only has room for one, and that's in Off Course. :lol: :lol:

(Go read it if you want to be entertained, and blush. :winkgrin: )

[yikes123]

Just saw that the OP changed this thread. To the OP, please do not start another nevermind thread. I think this board only has room for one, and that's in Off Course. :lol: :lol:

(Go read it if you want to be entertained, and blush. :winkgrin: )

What are you talking about?? another Nevermind thread? I'm not looking to get into a pissing match is all. To repeat again just looking for some information.

[slc2]

so, OP, any time someone doesn't agree with you, you get mad? :no:

[dkcbr]

$100,000

:lol: :o :lol: :o

I was thinking $100K - really I was! - and don't know how that million thing crept in! :lol: :o :lol:

[rebecca yount]

Velvet, I agree that horses need to be horses. Mine are turned out all day, every day unless the weather is absolutely dangerous. They don't get wrapped every night and they don't even know how to be longed.

My point WASN'T that I agree with horse management plan A or horse management plan B.

My point was that it is none of others' business how I, or the owner(s) in the OP treat our horses.

[Moderator 1]

As the original content of the OP has been removed, the general utility of this thread is limited, so we're going to close it. Feel free to start a related discussion in a new thread.

To clarify for the OP, the earlier reference to the "Nevermind" thread was not an insult. A while ago another poster removed a question from a thread in Off Course, replacing it with "Nevermind" and the thread has since taken on a comical life of its own.

Thanks!