Red Cell -dramatic, fast improvement?

[Slewdledo]

My filly has lots of issues. I started her on Red Cell on Saturday. Today she was bucking and playing as she hasn't done in a LONG time. :) Coincidence, a 'good' day, or could the Red Cell have made THAT much difference in such a short time?

[deltawave]

Assuming it's doing its "intended purpose" and building red cell volume, it takes about two weeks for iron supplementation to have a measurable impact on hematocrit, etc. and much, much longer than that to replete body iron stores.

Maybe it's the "cherry extract" flavoring--probably 99% sugar.

Just read the label for the first time in years--eeww! I'd forgotten there were things in red cell like "dried meat solubles" and "liver concentrate". :dead:

[JB]

I'm with you DW - Red Cell is something that should be removed from shelves ;) There's just nothing really good about it, unless perhaps there is true, primary anemia going on.

Slewdledo, what exactly are the "issues" your filly is having? There are far far far better products, to deal with most anything, than Red Cell.

[islandrider]

Figures. I've been feeding a dollop of the Red Cell for a few years now, not the cherry mind you, the yucca. Mostly for the Vit. E./Selenium. Guess it's time to read the label again...

[ChaseTheDream]

My gelding was on it for a yr...

we could never understand why he was so lazy..vet came out and did blood....he was anemic....

so we started red cell and a performance feed......we kept testing his blood ....still a little anemic....

He started to act really funny......all lazy again and lethargic......more blood......the vet said he didnt know....

we took him off read cell and a couple days later...HUGE improvment in attitude and personlity

we found out that it was poisoning him w/ all the food, joint sup., and Red Cell...

just be careful, and check all the labels:yes:

[pintopiaffe]

If Red Cell has a great B vitamin profile (which I think it does?) then yes, she could be feeling better already in some respects.

B's give a pretty quick reaction. Energy drinks are filled with B-complex and other stuff, but for many folks it's the B's that make the difference.

As for the "iron" and "anemia"... that's a bunch of hoke. But, the other vitamins in Red Cell *can* be useful. There ARE better sources out there now, we've learned a lot since then, but there's a reason Lixotinic (the original that Red Cell is a rip off of) is still around every track.

[Cherry]

Profile of Red Cell:

Each oz includes vitamin A 35,000 USP units, vitamin D 7,000 USP units, vitamin E 45 IU, niacinamide 270 mg, choline chloride 230 mg, vitamin B 100 mg, ferric ammonium citrate 1,200 mg, and traces of selenium, copper, cobalt, magnesium, manganese and vitamin K.

Slewdledo, did you have bloodwork done before you started your filly??? If so then have the vet out and take more bloodwork to check the blood count. Otherwise there is no way of really knowing.

I did read that when copper is introduced into the diet of a horse that's deficient that the blood count can rise dramatically in just a few days. Theoretically the copper unlocks the iron that is available in the horse's diet. People will poo-poo that so it would be nice if you had a baseline and another test to compare it to.... You can't get an iron supplement that doesn't have copper in it.

Most times when a horse is deemed anemic what it is suffering from is a "deficiency" anemia, meaning it lacks the necessary B vitamins (including folic acid) or copper in their diets.

When you say your filly is suffering from "issues" what exactly do you mean??? Is she on a ration balancer pellet or a vitamin/mineral supplement???

[KayBee]

I'm with you DW - Red Cell is something that should be removed from shelves ;) There's just nothing really good about it, unless perhaps there is true, primary anemia going on.

Slewdledo, what exactly are the "issues" your filly is having? There are far far far better products, to deal with most anything, than Red Cell.

Can you recommend a product? The horse I'm leasing has anemia, apparently. The owner is going to have blood pulled again, for a re-test.

And, based on this post from another thread (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=126728&highlight=anemia&page=2), what would you recommend based on what type of deficiency is causing the anemia?

A few comments and corrections:
Copper/zinc deficit causes depigmentation of the skin around the eyes, muzzle and anus or reddish color in black hair - NOT hair loss.

Excess copper can cause selenium deficit AND iron deficit type anemias.

Excess iron can cause copper deficit and anemia.

There is NO connection with IR/Cushings and anemia

The worm burden would have to be really significant to cause anemia and if it was lice you'd see significant skin lesions/hair loss from the itching.

My guess would be to check for the plants mentioned plus red maple leaves, check copper and iron intake in the feeds used and water....

Also, I found this tip in yet another anemia thread (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=147659&highlight=anemia).

True anemia is very rare.

Your best bet is to have fresh blood drawn to check - AFTER about 20 minutes of exercise.

Why do you need to exercise for 20 min before pulling blood? Just curious.

Thanks for any help you can provide...

[Cherry]

Can you recommend a product?
If a horse isn't getting the recommended amount of horse feed (which can be 4 to 6 pounds), no feed or straight grains (like oats, barley or corn) then the horse could have what is known as "deficiency anemia".... Generally, the biggest problem with this anemia is insufficient B-vitamins (including folic acid), or copper.... Please see my other post for an explanation about copper. The first thing I would do is put a horse like this on a ration balancer pellet. I really don't like using iron products but if I were to use one it would only be for three or four weeks, at most....
Why do you need to exercise for 20 min before pulling blood?
When a horse is at rest the red blood cells are sequestered in the spleen. When the horse exercises the rbc are circulated throughout the body and if a sample is taken at this time it is a truer measure.

[KayBee]

If a horse isn't getting the recommended amount of horse feed (which can be 4 to 6 pounds), no feed or straight grains (like oats, barley or corn) then the horse could have what is known as "deficiency anemia".... Generally, the biggest problem with this anemia is insufficient B-vitamins (including folic acid), or copper.... Please see my other post for an explanation about copper. The first thing I would do is put a horse like this on a ration balancer pellet. I really don't like using iron products but if I were to use one it would only be for three or four weeks, at most....

When a horse is at rest the red blood cells are sequestered in the spleen. When the horse exercises the rbc are circulated throughout the body and if a sample is taken at this time it is a truer measure.

Thanks!

The horse is a big-boned guy - 17hh - who gets hay 3x a day and gets pellets morning and night. No idea how much total poundage that is/don't know what brand of pellets. I'll try to find that info out today, and also find out whether he was exercised prior to the last time his blood was pulled/tested.

He was on Red Cell for a while, but it seemed to make him stupid/hot. So now he's off it...

[Sarah Ralston]

If a horse isn't getting the recommended amount of horse feed (which can be 4 to 6 pounds), no feed or straight grains (like oats, barley or corn) then the horse could have what is known as "deficiency anemia".... Generally, the biggest problem with this anemia is insufficient B-vitamins (including folic acid), or copper.... Please see my other post for an explanation about copper. The first thing I would do is put a horse like this on a ration balancer pellet. I really don't like using iron products but if I were to use one it would only be for three or four weeks, at most....

When a horse is at rest the red blood cells are sequestered in the spleen. When the horse exercises the rbc are circulated throughout the body and if a sample is taken at this time it is a truer measure.

While Cherry is absolutely correct about WHEN to take a sample to test for anemia, I beg to differ with the idea that not feeding recommended amounts of xcommercial feeds will cause "deficiency" anemia and require supplements. True deficit anemia in horses is RARE. B-vitamin deficits (mainly thiamine-B-1) can cause anemia BUT in most horses they synthesize adequate amounts of these vitamins in their body! There has NEVER been a documented case of folic acid deficiency in horses. Luckily most of the B-vitamins are just excreted in the urine if fed in excess so oversuplementation is not a problem but there is usually NO need for diet supplements unless highly stressed and on very poor quality feed! Iron deficit anemia is EXTREMELY rare in horses and usually only due to chronic blood loss (ie: Severe parasitism).

[JB]

Thanks!

The horse is a big-boned guy - 17hh - who gets hay 3x a day and gets pellets morning and night. No idea how much total poundage that is/don't know what brand of pellets. I'll try to find that info out today, and also find out whether he was exercised prior to the last time his blood was pulled/tested.

As Sarah said, true anemia caused by a lack of adequate dietary iron is very, very rare. Simply eating enough hay gives enough iron, unless you've got some really wonky hay.

More likely any "anemia" is from not enough copper, or blood drawn without any exercise, as mentioned.

What prompted your iron check? What was the number and what was the range for that lab? Remember, the "normal" range is not necessarily what's going to be normal for *your* horse, and if it was on the low-normal side, or very slightly below that, it may be nothing.

Your horse is a big guy, I'd lay odds on the copper ;)

[chaltagor]

Just read the label for the first time in years--eeww! I'd forgotten there were things in red cell like "dried meat solubles" and "liver concentrate". :dead:

I cannot comprehend that there are people out there that don't read lables. It astounds me. I read the lables on everything. Who would feed this to a horse :confused:

[Buffyblue]

My old vet recommended Lixotinic (rather than Red Cell).

[deltawave]

Hey, I'm a label reader! The only reason I hadn't read the label "in years" is because I haven't used this product since, well, maybe 1979. :lol:

[KayBee]

As Sarah said, true anemia caused by a lack of adequate dietary iron is very, very rare. Simply eating enough hay gives enough iron, unless you've got some really wonky hay.

More likely any "anemia" is from not enough copper, or blood drawn without any exercise, as mentioned.

What prompted your iron check? What was the number and what was the range for that lab? Remember, the "normal" range is not necessarily what's going to be normal for *your* horse, and if it was on the low-normal side, or very slightly below that, it may be nothing.

Your horse is a big guy, I'd lay odds on the copper ;)

I have replied to this post 3x and it's been eaten each time. Four times the charm?

At any rate "Big Guy" is getting 3 quarts of "pellets" (don't know what brand), plus 1 quart of Ultium (as of last week), plus hay 4x daily.

And, alas, Big Guy isn't mine -- I started a half-lease on him a month ago. As such, I'm not sure the initial reason for the CBC. There may have been two -- one as part of the PPE, back in July (he was on a 2-month trial prior to his purchase in the beginning of September by the woman I'm leasing from) -- and the one that was definitely done when he colicked (coliced?) in mid-August. (The vet suspected a bacterial infection as the root cause of the colic, and it turned out there was an infection of some sort.)

I do not know (but doubt) that Big Guy was exercised for the PPE CBC (if there was one) and know that he was NOT exercised prior to the colic-inspired CBC. It seems to me that if the diagnosis of anemia was based on a single CBC -- the one pulled during the colic/infection -- that it might be a bit suspect based on what else was going on at the time.

A follow-up CBC was pulled a week or so ago and I know that there was no prior exercise in this case. The diagnosis was that he was "getting better" (that the anemia was marginal).

Can an experienced vet look at the CBC hemaglobin/RBC levels and "adjust" for the lack of exercise when diagnosing anemia?

At any rate, this particular vet didn't seem worried/inclined to suggest dietary adjustments.

As I'm a) not the owner and b) inexperienced (been riding 2 years now/started leasing for the first time ever), I can't really give any more detailed info (don't know the exact values from the CBC, for example). Owners DH is a doctor and apparently he (the DH) wanted those values and got into a little tiff with the vet over it.

FYI, there's been a succession of vets handling this horse's care, in part because the vet that handled the colic was... scary. A bad communicator to say the least (ie, if any of us had heard "possible impaction" we would have been, y'know, alarmed. And stayed with him every minute.) He also didn't notice during the PPE, and after, that Big Guy's teeth badly needed to be done. And there are other VERY scary (verified) stories about this guy.

The current vet is highly respected but... is not known for his bedside manner.

Well, that was long and rambly and contained more than you really needed (or, likely, wanted) to know... and yet contained no definitive information.

Huh. <g>