Irish draught and Irish sporthorse breeders

[incahoots]

I was thinking of trying something new this year.....would like to breed a nice Irish sporthorse for myself and although I know quite a bit about warmbloods I know nothing of the Irish horses. What do you look for in a TB mare to cross on these stallions? Who are the big name, successful horses in the US? Where are the big breeding farms located? Successful producers? Any information would be helpful or direct me to a website! Thank you!

[erinwillow]

HI,

GREAT idea! You may wish to try starting your search here: http://www.irishdraught.com/horses/roster.php?sunid=17

Best of Luck!

[incahoots]

Thanks Erinwillow-I did visit that site and have been perusing over their stallion roster. I am looking for subjective opinions on stallions if anyone wants to chime in!

[okggo]

I think it depends on what you want? I'm fairly certain the only full ID stallion (available fresh) with offspring moving up the ranks to GP is O'Leary's Irish Diamond. Edited to add, I think he himself probably has the most impressive show career as well, jumping and dressage. Frozen gives you some more lovely options, like Cruising, Sea Crest, Sir Rivie, Jumbo, CoolCorron Cool Diamond. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

Kegansporthorses stallion Macha Breeze was eventing and doing well, she might chime in on him.

What are you breeding for, what are your goals?

Acorn Hill Farm has some very nice, successful offspring, but they are not affiliated with the IDHSNA- so how important are those papers to you?

[incahoots]

I would like what we all would like I think.....some jump, nice enough movement for lower level dressage, a good mind, less buzz than a full TB but still plenty of energy, good bone and great feet. I like a taller horse as I am quite tall and need some substance to take up my leg. A good engine, long neck and good topline. I am wary of frozen, I tried three doses on two different mares last year with no pregnancies-ouch in the pocketbook. As far as registration papers go.....can you get a certificate of pedigree to prove parentage? What if you have a breeding animal?

[Platinum Equestrian]

So you're not looking at doing it for a business? You'll be keeping this foal, right?

Taller... how tall do you need?

[Sassenach]

I think it depends on what you want? I'm fairly certain the only full ID stallion (available fresh) with offspring moving up the ranks to GP is O'Leary's Irish Diamond. Edited to add, I think he himself probably has the most impressive show career as well, jumping and dressage. Frozen gives you some more lovely options, like Cruising, Sea Crest, Sir Rivie, Jumbo, CoolCorron Cool Diamond. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

Kegansporthorses stallion Macha Breeze was eventing and doing well, she might chime in on him.

What are you breeding for, what are your goals?

Acorn Hill Farm has some very nice, successful offspring, but they are not affiliated with the IDHSNA- so how important are those papers to you?

Sir Rivie has sired some REALLY nice stock in Ireland. He's a lovely athletic stallion. Our friend back home had an absolutely stunning colt by him that he is keeping as a stallion prospect. He's gorgeous. I would have taken him home with me had I been able to.

CoolCorron Cool Diamond: My Grandfather helped start him under saddle and had nothing but good things to say about him especially his temperament. He said he was a huge pet and would have kissed you if he was able to. He's been a phenomenally successful performance stallion too. :yes:

[okggo]

For lower levels, jumping and dressage, I think any would get you there, if they cross well conformationally, etc. with your mare.

Taller...not all of these guys add height, some of that really depends on the mare and what/how much you are trying to add. King of Diamonds (one of the great jumping lines) for example adds bone, but often the mare has a lot to do with height. None of the IDs I mentioned are huge, Cruising and Sea Crest were in the 16 h range I think, Sir Rivie is a bit more but you don't want frozen...

Touch of the Blues isn't standing fresh any more, and I know there are a couple others that do add to height. I think a Sport Horse with some leggy TB blood would be more of a guarantee, albeit still a crap shoot. I've heard Huntingfield Proud Tim is throwing the height and some nice looking foals.

Not sure which reliably pass on a long neck...others may have a better idea.

Papers, for Acorn Hill boys I think they are PHR only. My understanding, if the stallion you pick is not approved by IDHSNA you can't get the papers from them. With AH it's not a lack of talent thing, they just never presented their horses with them or decided to join.

There is a Clover Hill son in Canada that looks really nice....Clover Cliste not sure his size though.

Honestly, for what it sounds like you want, a lower level horse with a decent jump, I think most (if not all) would do the job for you.

And there are some very nice up and coming sport horses, Formula One for one.

[TBlitz]

I have a little purebred ID baby who's 15hh at 9 mo. I'm just sharing his bloodlines, he's in no way, shape, or form for sale- he's MINE! His mom is 16.3 as 5yo and got her height from her sire, King of Diamonds (since her mom is only 15.3). His dad is The Pride of Gloster (Clover Hill x Bantry's Pride by Pride of Shaunlara), and only 16.1, but I'm wondering if he throws size or not since my wee one is so big (I'm still hoping he'll finish out under 17hh :yes:).

They have enough substance and girth that I doubt you will have a problem with your leg being taken up or looking too big for the horse.

I think the crosses with Holsteiners are amazing... but that would probably be more costly to aquire a nice mare to breed. I think the Irish head is pretty dominant in passing to the offspring, so I would look for a mare with top build and nice movement that you can stick the sire's head onto.

AdAblurr02 breeds IDSHs and may be able to chime in!

[BeastieSlave]

You'll get lots of opinions here I'm sure.

When I was breeding my ISH baby, it was important to me that the TB mare have substance of her own. Yes, I wanted a heavier ISH, but I think breeding one extreme type to another is risky - no matter what you are breeding for (hunter, dressage, eventing...). You don't know what you'll get.
I'd hate it if the foal got some heavy parts from the sire and some light parts from the dam and end up mismatched. You guys know what I mean - big body on spindly legs or big head on little neck, big horse with little feet, etc.

[erinwillow]

Thanks Erinwillow-I did visit that site and have been perusing over their stallion roster. I am looking for subjective opinions on stallions if anyone wants to chime in!


I also really like SEA QUEST! He has a gorgeous Sport filly up in Canada that I'd give my right arm for. . gorgeous! I, of course, am partial to the greys as well ;)

[gillenwaterfarm]

Thanks Okggo for the mention of Mac. He's not a big name, and we aren't a big farm. :) I haven't had him out competing as much as I wanted due to some family things that have taken priority. I'm very much an amatuer owner/rider, who gets very stressed and nervous at shows, and I plan to spend the next season at schooling shows to work out MY issues. Mac takes excellent care of me, frequently doing whatever he can to keep me in the tack when I blow things.

Anyway, Mac is consistently producing tall, substantial foals with great minds. He has added a minimum of 2" of height AND bone to each mare he has bred, and stamps his foals with his neck, shoulder, and hip. They all have his uphill canter, and are an improvement over the dam in all gaits. Take a look at the foals on his page...they all look like him, and are out of a WIDE variety of mares. His oldest are starting thier careers, one is doing well in the hunters in Florida, and two others are starting Eventing.

If Mac isn't what you are looking for, I'd second the recommendation of Huntingfield Proud Tim. He is consistantly producing excellent foals that fit the type of what you mention wanting.

Good luck in your search!

[Roisin]

Gotta give a shout out to one of my mare's relatives, Bridon Beale Street...he looks like he is turning out beautifully! By the same stallion (as my mare), Mountain Pearl, who returned to Ireland last year.

http://www.lonetreefarm.net/stallions.htm

[Irish Momma]

Incahoots there have been some good suggestions for you on here already, most Irish Draught and Irish Sport Horse stallions will probably offer you the "good sort" you are looking for, thats the wonderful thing about them - but dont underplay the mares portion of the equation.

Leggier TB mares tend to be my choice of cross with most of the RID stallions as RID can put a bigger torso to leg ratio than I like for my North American customers- of course everyone has different likes and dislikes.
I have crossed a wide variety of mares both TB and Irish Sport Horses, to Full Draught and to Irish Sport Horse stallions. The brains - uniformly wonderful, but the phenotypes required vary, for the jumpers /eventers my buyers prefer the 1/8 ID,7/8 TB ISH, for dressage 1/2 breds have been more successful for me.
Whichever stallion you choose, it goes without saying, should complement and be a good combination with your mare.

[Debbie]

I'm pretty biased since I love my Macha baby so much, but I think he's a great choice and now that we have our own place, I'm contemplating getting a nice TB broodie to make another one. :winkgrin:

My mare is (http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/dab1966/Horses039.jpg) coming 5 and is just what I hoped for when I went looking for an Irish cross. (1/2 ID, 1/2 TB) She's a big mare (16.3, 1400 lbs) but with a lot of elegance. She has the gaits to do well in dressage and jumps like an old pro -- quiet and easy to the fences with lovely form. Brave, brave, brave.

Touch of the Blues and Steeped in Luck are another two I'll be looking at when/if I get that broodie.

[Sassenach]

I ADORE Foxglen Himself. Love him love him love him. :D

www.foxglenhimself.com

[AlexMakowski]

I love Foxglen Himself! I have a two year old and she is fabulous. I also worked at the Damon Williams farm a few years back. I got to ride Glen several times while I was there and he was AMAZING! His jump was soooo scopey. I also rode Western Sun. He was really cool.

I also am vey interested in breeding to Stepped in Luck RID. I think he is in Canada. He looks superb. But Glen is truley unique.

[AlexMakowski]

Oh and in response to an earlier post on a stallion with GP offspring. Foxglen's foals have not seen the GP level because mine isnt even broke yet. But fear not, we will be making our mark!

[Waterwitch]

Other than the usual caveats applicable when choosing any mare for performance horse breeding, the TB mare you use depends on the stallion you wish to use and your aspirations. One stallion isn't the answer for every mare or vice versa. Some Irish stallions don't throw a lot of bone due to the amount of TB in their background so you won't want a fine legged mare. A few stallions tend to throw the Draught body but not the bone to go with it. Some throw tall, some not. Some throw more substance than you may want in an upper level eventer. Some throw themselves, some let the mare come through. In other words...research research research...ask to see photos/stats of the mares the foals are out of and/or get mare owner references.

Some additional suggestions for your stallion file:

Of the NA-based Irish stallions, Brandenburg's Windstar probably has the most successful group of youngsters competing right now both in eventing and straight dressage. He certainly has the pedigree to back it up being by I'm a Star out of a Draught mare with KOD and Sea Crest in her background. Crosses well with American TBs though I don't think they tend to be overly tall.

The previously mentioned Rhyd's Sea Quest is Sir Rivie's full brother and is available FRESH as he is in Canada. He stood locally for several years and there are several very nice youngsters by him out of American TB mares starting their eventing careers in our area. They definitely can jump and tend to be taller.

If you are looking for height, Huntingfield Proud Tim is very reliable in that department. Most of the offspring I know of have finished in the 17 hh range, out of a variety of mare heights (my 15.3hh mare produced a filly that was over 16.3hh at age 2 1/2 - way too tall for me but you said you are looking for height). He seems to cross well with TBs as well and always throws a nice temperament.

Another ISH stallion with interesting bloodlines is Gypsy Diamond - he is from the same female family as Leslie Law's 4 star brothers Shear l'Eau and Shear H20. This horse throws a gorgeous front and nice movement though he hasn't been competed much due to the death of his previous owner. Not sure what the new owner plans for him.

Snowford Bellman has a 1/2 bred son (again out of an American TB mare) in training with the O'Connors. Bellman is a son of Slievenamon who is the same Irish stallion that Denny's Formula One goes back to, and his damsire is Skippy, who was also the sire of Jumbo (sire of Badminton winner Headly Brittania et al). Bellman's sons Harkaway Lionhawk and Winmaur Sergeant Pepper are worth looking at as well. You will not get a huge amount of additional height on a small mare with these guys but if you need great movement with your jump there are no other RIDs that produce it with the consistency these three stallions do. Great feet in this line.

Also agree with looking at O'Leary's Irish Diamond. He doesn't usually produce a lot of additional height on a smaller mare but that is not a concern if you start with a decent sized mare. Definitely a proven stallion and probably has more youngsters competing in the jumpers than any other American based RID stallion (most out of TB mares). Super temperaments, super limbs, natural jumpers.

Good luck whatever you decide!

[Sassenach]

The previously mentioned Rhyd's Sea Quest is Sir Rivie's full brother and is available FRESH as he is in Canada. He stood locally for several years and there are several very nice youngsters by him out of American TB mares starting their eventing careers in our area. They definitely can jump and tend to be taller.


I didn't now Sir Rivie had a brother in North America. I was very impressed by the foals I have seen by him in Ireland :yes:

[Waterwitch]

I didn't now Sir Rivie had a brother in North America.:

Yep...I actually prefer Sea Quest to his brother.

[horsetales]

As Others have said O'Learys Irish Diamond produces talent, but not size. I sold my OLID daughter to an eventer that could use her termendous amount of talent that would be wasted in my field. I expect to see her take her rider up the levels.

I also have a TB mare in foal to Dandelion Diamond Rebel who combines the King of Diamonds line and Rebel Yell lines (which produces great eventers and jumpers). He evented up until recently when sold to a foxhunter. He produces height and substance. He himself has an amazing temperment.

I would also look at Cradillo who's competing quite successfully in the jumper ring. I believe he's around 16.3 and produces nicely

[erinwillow]

Yep...I actually prefer Sea Quest to his brother.

Here's his site, http://www.ridleighsporthorses.com/index.htm this is one of the most beautiful animals I've ever seen. . . his progeney are consistent and of quality. . .all who hae a piece of him are truly blessed.. .

[SBClancy]

Snowford Bellman is fantastic. I have a 6 year old by him and he is so talented he could go in any direction. His jump and movement are just like his Dad's. He has been barefoot since I bought him two years ago and we will go for hours on the trail without ever a problem. Clancy is now 17 hands and as solid as they come. His mom is 1/2 tb/1/2 Percheron. I would definitely check him out. Tony Philips, who owns Snowford Bellman, is an absolute authority on the Irish Draughts.

[Loki]

O'Leary's Irish Diamond is owned by one of my clients. I showed him in the jumpers last year up to the 1.30 division. I was a bit nervous to have him in the barn as I have no prior experience with stallions. He is like riding a super fun thelwell pony with lots of power. He is very light and easy to ride for such a big guy! I own 2 off his babies and ride 4 others for clients. They all have amazing minds and athletic ability. He is best crossed with TB mares. This year in Tucson I will have Irish and 5 of his offspring there competing at various levels. You can look up his info at kinsonstud.com

[pintopiaffe]

For dressage and all around, a new kid on the block is Bridon Belfrey.

He is pretty darn stunning.

I am smitten. ;)

[Loki]

" O'Leary's Irish Diamond produces talent not height." Of the 6 OLID offspring that I have ridden 4 of them are 16.3 maybe 17 hands and 2 are 16-16.1. I think that he produces both height and talent. I may be a bit biased!

[gortmore]

Clover Cliste has competed to 4'6" and schooled to 5'3". He has a great temperament and is very easy to ride and work with. He is an absolute dream to work with and I could not ask for a nicer horse to work with. Due to his competition schedule he does not have a ton of foals on the ground but he does have one gelding from his first foal crop who has competed in his first Grand Prix (Level 8 4'9"). This same gelding Clover All Over also competed this year in the 7/8 year old young jumper classes as a 7 year old. Clover Cliste seems to pass on his beautiful head and has added size with one foal out of a 15.1hh Trakenher mare reaching 17hh and very leggy and a 10 mover and jumper for the hunter ring. Oh yes and he is 16.1hh.

I personally have been doing the Holsteiner cross with Clover Cliste and could not be happier with the cross.

If you would like more info on him check his website at www.tophorsesales.com

[Sassenach]

For dressage and all around, a new kid on the block is Bridon Belfrey.

He is pretty darn stunning.

I am smitten. ;)

He is LOVELY I agree :yes:

[gillenwaterfarm]

Someone posted this link on the HJ board's thread about ISH's. It's a very worthy read!

http://www.irishsporthorse.com/_file...ements2007.pdf

[AKB]

We have a 5 year old by Glenlara who is lovely; a good mover and a great jumper. Oak Hill Farm in Virginia is easy to work with. We also have a 6 year old Snowford Bellman/American TB who my daughter adores. He scores well at 1st level dressage and is a good, reliable, jumper. My impression is that Snowford Bellman produces horses who are a little hotter than most IDSHs. They are still far quieter than average horses but more spunky than the Glenlara offspring we have known. My friend has a Cradillo/American TB 4 year old who is a lovely mover and a sweetheart. There is a lot of diversity in the Irish Draught Stallions. You need to look at videos and talk with people to find exactly what you want. I think you will love your IDSH. Make sure you register him/her so you can participate in the Irish Draught shows.

[SandyUHC]

I wanted what you want except for the height part and decided to put my elegant, scopy TB mare to a 1/2 ID 1/2 TB stallion for that magical 1/4 bred that excels at eventing. So far I'm thrilled with the result -- my coming 2 year old is just what I ordered and oh so cooperative. You won't regret the ID influence, I assure you.
:- )

[okggo]

I wanted what you want except for the height part and decided to put my elegant, scopy TB mare to a 1/2 ID 1/2 TB stallion for that magical 1/4 bred that excels at eventing. So far I'm thrilled with the result -- my coming 2 year old is just what I ordered and oh so cooperative. You won't regret the ID influence, I assure you.
:- )

I'm sooo excited about mine on the way!! :) The foal-to-bes sire and dam are mine, and the sire was bred by me out of my Irish/American TB mare. So it's truly a "homebred" event prospect.

Megan, the link you provided doesn't work for me...

Re size on OLID- I really think the mare has a lot to do with it. His old owner told me when I picked him that the mare tended to set the size of the foals, so those with 15 hand mares wanting 17 hand foals likely weren't going to get one. My mare was large, so I didn't care. My guy is 16+ as a coming 3 year old and I think will end up around 16.2. Perfect, in my mind. Don't forget they have BODY, and width of barrel takes up leg better (IMHO) than long legs any day.

[TBlitz]

Quick question for the breeders here...

How long does it typically take to get registration papers from the IDHSNA? Since Mark had not been registered when I got him in October (though he came with all his paperwork that had been completed, waiting to be sent in) I sent everything in when he got home. I e-mailed them at the very beginning of December and they e-mailed back telling me they were waiting for the DNA results to come back.

I'm not in a rush to get them since he's probably going to be sitting in his pasture going through his uglies this year (though he has a very high opinion of his looks), but I just wanted to ask if this was a normal length of time for the registry to get papers.

I'm so excited to have him growing up! He's by far the most personable young horse I've ever worked with, and I've had my fair share of handling babies (though he's the first one I've actually owned). I'm SO glad I decided to go Irish!

Thanks in advance!

[Waterwitch]

Quick question for the breeders here...

How long does it typically take to get registration papers from the IDHSNA?

It can take up to 2 months if things are busy. Things are always busy around the time of the Annual show and then again at the end of the year with people trying to get registrations in before the fees go up January 1st.

If you haven't received anything by the end of January I would try phoning again.

[AdAblurr02]

" O'Leary's Irish Diamond produces talent not height." Of the 6 OLID offspring that I have ridden 4 of them are 16.3 maybe 17 hands and 2 are 16-16.1. I think that he produces both height and talent. I may be a bit biased!

Agreed - and the "skip a generation" factor will play into it sometimes, too!

Our RIDSH mare is right at 16 hands - a very uphill girl, she's not that tall behind - and her filly by OLID stood 16:2 as a three year old. Of course, the mare's sire Touch of the Blues could have something to do with that, many of his sons are right up there at 17 hands, including our young stallion who was 16:2-1/2 on the stick at his inspection last fall as a three.

We bred two mares to an OLID son last year, Braveheart RID, owned by Debbie Fullilove in Texas, he is right at 16 hands. The resulting foals are definitely influenced by their dam's families. The filly from the 15:3 mare is going to finish about 16 hands at most. The colt from the BIG 16:2 mare will be at least 16:3 or so - he's very stretchy.

We have a colt by Steeped in Luck RID who will top 17 hands easily - he is BIG, and gorgeous, and sweet as can be, just like the other kids. He is definitely a dressage prospect, too - airy gaits with lots of suspension. His TB dam is 16:3 and a classy lady who throws huge foals, so this boy got height from both sides.

To the OP - what part of the country are you located in? There is NO substitute for personal inspection IMHO. Even great video doesn't show you all you'd like to see.

Kate

[SandyUHC]

*fingers ine ars, lalalalala* Noooooo, not skip a generation! My boy's grandpapa is The Irish Rover -- 17'1" if I remember right. I want 15'3" like his mamma. : - )

[ashcroft]

Good for you Incahoots to be considering an Irish Draught/Irish Sporthorse stallion for your mare.You'll seldom go wrong with an Irish cross. We've been breeding Irish Sporthorses for the last ten or so years in the US and you cant beat a bit of Irish blood to look after you!


www.cloverhill.us

[equestrianrider]

I'd like to ad, that this year we are breeding our RID mare to Cradilo http://www.huntingtonfarms.org/ ........

[Awesomesporthorses.com]

Hi all,

I used two stallions as my Irish stallion selection. Al'lain Shawn who is a black Registered Irish Draught Sporthorse who is now a gelding.

The other is Hang On Johnny- RID. He is a 16.2 H big stallion with body and movement. He passes these qualities on to his babies. He is some of the more rare bloodlines. He produces a baby with a natural jump and excellent gaits.

I produced a filly by him named Irish Chick. She is a black and white Pinto filly out of our Paint mare. We could not be happier with her markings and athletic ability.

You can see Hang On Johnny at www.Blackshireequestrian.com. You can see the filly we produced at www.1Ahorses.com Take a peak!

Kari

[denny]

In general, how much size do most riders want to handle? Because there are many size related aspects to the feel that a horse gives the rider, the basic type of "ride" you get.
In my sport, eventing, at the preliminary levels and up, I`d say that 3/4 tb, 1/4 draught is maybe ok, maybe a bit "heavy." At the lower levels, where speed and endurance aren`t so key, less tb blood is ok.
What I see at Rolex tend to be 7/8ths bred, maybe even 15/16ths. When Sam Barr gave a breeding seminar 4-5 years ago, John Williams Carrick (4th place indiv. at World Games) was used as a demo. He is about 1/32nd Clyde, I think, and still you could see he wasn`t full tb.
Sam`s comment was "It doesn`t take very much."

[Waterwitch]

Yet several of the most successful 4 star horses with Irish blood have more than just a dash:

McKinley (2007 Pan Am bronze) is 1/2 Irish Draught

Parkmore Ed (2007 Burghley winner) is 1/4 Irish Draught

Headley Brittania (2007 Badminton winner) is 1/4 Irish Draught

Toytown (2006 European champion) is 1/2 Irish Draught

[Westglen Farm]

I have not really read through the posts but thought I would ass in that there are some very nice stallions up here in Canada and because shipping semen across the border is easy you may want to consider looking at some of the RID's in Canada. The IDHS of Canada has our stallions listed on their web site.
You asked about type of TB you would cross- well just about anything crosses well with an RID. It is amazing how the cross just works. In Shining Armor, RID has bred a few TB's with great results, a connemara, Appendix QH and a haflinger and to be honest, they all crossed well. This year he will cover a standardbred mare.
The Irish draught sport horse crosses are such amazing athletes with temperments to match.
Whatever RID stallion you choose I do not think you will go wrong.

[Janet]

Toytown (2006 European champion) is 1/2 Irish Draught
I thought Toytown was "of unknown breeding". Did they figure out his pedigree?

[Waterwitch]

I thought Toytown was "of unknown breeding". Did they figure out his pedigree?

Word on the street in Ireland is that he is by Tipperary Grey, a purebred Irish Draught son of the RID stallion Riverbank.

[columbus]

There is no one size for Irish Draughts(ID) and that has a consequence for Irish Draught Sport Horses(IDSH). To look at Formula One I see an aweful lot of substance that is not typical in the modern IDSH of his percentage of ID. It may reflect that the Irish Draught blood he carries was from a very substantial horse to linger so long or that the TB breeding he has was from stock that still carried a lot of bone itself. We are finding a wide range of "bone" in Irish Draught/TB crosses made here. The crosses in Ireland are often with the Irish Draught mare on the bottom line as opposed to our desire to have the TB on the bottom. If you make this cross with a TB mare...and I highly encourage you to do that I would consider the amount of bone and substance of your mare and select accordingly. A lightly built mare that you want to add substance to consider a ID but if you are looking for a slighter increase then look at the smaller lighter purebred stallions or the IDSHs. I have a traditional purebred gelding...more old fashioned...very substantial, very steady and very trainable. 10 inches of bone and a wide saddle position, he takes up a lot of leg but is just over 16 hands...he seems much much bigger. No one thinks of him as small, he was also measured at just under 16.2 and no one saw him and contested he was not so big. He is baroque in type with an upright Friesian like neck and demeanor that adds the impression of height. I then have a 17 hand mare you would swear is bigger. 10 inches of bone and about the same saddle position and she makes tall people look like peanuts up there. With a more hunter type neck set and quick footed and super powerful. Still clearly an Irish Draught but you can see how a stallion of either type would contribute very different things to the cross. Irish Draughts are not a warmblood they are a breed and they have not been melded into one uniform type so you can find what you want from individual stallions. I have happily used Hangon Johnny and KEC Double Diamond on my mare and have been delighted by each stallions get...each are different but exciting.

Pat Orgas
Merrypath Irish Draughts

[denny]

Thanks, Pat, for your insights.
I have 2 Irish horses, my 11 year old preliminary event horse, Loftus Fox, and Formula One, the horse in the video on our website, rising 6 years.
Lofty is by Taldi, according to Clare Ryan, although his passport lists his breeding as unknown, and he`s taller than Formula One, about 17 hands, but not so strongly made.
He`s a very good jumper, brave, scopey, and quick for his size. If I were 10 years younger, I`m certain he`d be an advanced horse. The limitations are mine, not his!
The stallion is about 16.2, and is actually a better jumper than Lofty, really about the best jumper I`ve owned in 50 years. He`s just a bit "big" for my personal taste, but I like the slightly smaller, quicker types in general. That`s just personal preference.
But crossed with full tbs, to get the 7/8ths cross, is why I bought him, quite specifically.
I have two yearling colts, both out of full tb mares, that I`m very keen on. Of course by the time they`re ready to start competing, I`ll be looking for some brave young kid to take them on.
Over the years we`ve had dozens of Irish crosses at our farm, and every one of them was a very nice horse, and the best were world class. It must be in your drinking water over there!!!

[columbus]

Merrypath and her Irish Draughts are in Minnesota where it reached a grand total of 1 degree today. I think it is an individual thing. I do agree that Formula One will make wonderful 7/8ths sporthorses because of his substance and other qualities he was well bred for but there are very lovely IDSH stallions who are more Irish Draught but are showing less of their ID ancesters who will make fleet, quick footed sensible 1/4 IDSH. If my big mare ever went to a TB she might produce a very competitive horse herself as a half bred but because she carries the traits you want, that usually come from the TB side, like quick feet and endurance and ground speed with rapid recovery. Most people are breeding to IDs for their soundness and mind and general toughness but my mare proves that there are lines of Irish Draught that have endurance and speed as well and I see my ID gelding's problems for you being a slower foot and less agility though he is steadfast and strong with lovely easy gaits judges like and he would be a good safe sensible lower level horse. Neither would ever be like a small quick TB however.

Pat Orgas
Merrypath Irish Draughts

[denny]

I watch those foxhunting in Ireland videos, where horses gallop across the kind of terrain and footing where sane people would scarcely walk a horse, and I realize how much that sport has created the calm courage of the Irish horses.
Tbs have "hot" courage,of the "leap into fire" kind, that can get you in trouble, whereas the horses on those tapes come to steep banks, or drops into streambeds, slow down, have a look, figure it out, with never the slightest doubt they won`t go, and THEN leap.
So is it any wonder that the RID and the tb go together like ham and eggs?
Then it`s personal preference, the degree of the mix.

[Fred]

This is an excellent thread with valuable sharing of information, thank you.
I too am a big fan of the Irish/TB crosses. A Fine Romance has been bred to a number of RID and ISH mares with lovely results. None are of competition age yet though, but we have high hopes for all of them. ;)

I saw the video for Coolcorran Cool Diamond a few years ago, and I thought he was wonderful, an extraordinary stallion, and I have seen a few of his offspring, and they are beautiful. I seriously considered breeding AFR's full sister to him, but she is not a good candidate for frozen semen. Irish Momma has a stunning mare by him who could move into my barn any time!

Another young stallion who I have met, and who has been mentioned, is Steeped in Luck. He is RID, and is in dressage training right now. Lovely temperament, lighter build, good feet.
I have seen a couple of his babies (weanlings) and the nicest ones are out of TB mares. One of them is an AFR daughter. They are lovely.

I too am a proponent of breeding like to like, and if I were going to breed a TB mare to an RID stallion I would most definitely look for one with size and substance of her own. As always,if you can see offspring, that is a good idea.

For myself, I would be more inclined to breed one of my TB mares (all of whom with size and substance) to a ISH with more TB blood, aiming for a 3/4 or 7/8s or higher % of TB blood.

I am not an expert on the Irish horses, and their bloodlines, especially compared to the many knowlegable breeders here, but think that you have a lot of lovely horses to choose from, depending upon your mare, and the discipline you are breeding for.

good luck, have fun.

[AdAblurr02]

<SNIP>

Another young stallion who I have met, and who has been mentioned, is Steeped in Luck. He is RID, and is in dressage training right now. Lovely temperament, lighter build, good feet.
I have seen a couple of his babies (weanlings) and the nicest ones are out of TB mares. One of them is an AFR daughter. They are lovely.<SNIP>
good luck, have fun.

Steeped in Luck RID actually has a ten inch cannon, he's not "light" at all. He's being kept clipped to the gnat's patootie for showing dressage, which makes him look somewhat more streamlined than he actually is - also, he's young, and still not done growing. I expect to see him put on body a bit more.

Fred, and list, here's a Steeped in Luck colt out of a big strapping TB mare

http://www.irishhuntersandjumpers.com/Lucky%20Punch.html

the "fuzzy baby" pics are at five WEEKS of age, next to my 6-foot hubby. The show pics are at four months, and his handler is well over six feet tall. He's a lovely, light-moving, very substantial colt.
You can see mama in a couple of the shots and draw your own conclusions - I'll just say that she's 16:3 and has a 9.5 inch cannon herself! a very substantial mare, from female family that's produced a lot of spectacular grass and hurdles horses, and her male family is not lacking bone or foot either.

I truly believe that success in any breeding depends so much on the quality of the mare - you can't expect even the best stallion to produce a miracle out of a faulty mare, especially in the temperament department.

Great to see so many positive comments on this thread!

[SandyUHC]

Pat, Formula One won't make 7/8ths sporthorses with TB mares since he's only 1/8th anything other than TB. To do that he'd have to go to some mare with an ID percentage my brain can't come up with after your run-on paragraph. Which is why I asked Denny the question about why he bought a 7/8 TB stallion instead of a 3/4 one if 7/8ths IDSH was a goal.

Edited: Oh, I see, if you suppose that Craig Lassie's unknown mother is actually Irish Draught then you get the 3/4 percentage. Carry on.

[denny]

Formula One is 3/4 tb, 1/8 RID, and 1/8 breeding unknown. He`s a big boy, big feet, big crest, big bone, big strong back and loins, etc, so I`m assuming that the unknown 3rd dam was not a lightweight.
Look at the video on the website below, or go see him at U-Mass, and you`ll see that he`s just the type to cross with full tbs to get that 7/8ths TYPE, regardless of what that 3rd dam was.
Look at some of the photos of some of his foals, especially a couple of the ones Jacquie Mars bred, to see that even out of full tb mares, they clearly aren`t full tb.
The other thing is to carefully watch that freaky jumping ability, and that movement. He didn`t get all of that, I don`t think, from the tb side alone.
I care about the athlete more than the papers. In 55 years of competing at every level, I`ve yet to ride a set of papers.

[Holsteiner jumper]

I have an Irishbred mare that is of phenomenal quality. The one Irish horse people always seem to forget is Amazing Odyssey, Philip Dutton's 13th place Burghley mount, and my mare's half brother. I definately prefer the 7/8 TB, as well as the ISHXWB Which I think adds modernity in type. SandyUHC, Denny bought Formula One because he's an AWESOME horse! Quality is the key. Formula One is the only Irish stallion that my mare's breeder considered breeding her to.

[Waterwitch]

I have an Irishbred mare that is of phenomenal quality. The one Irish horse people always seem to forget is Amazing Odyssey, Philip Dutton's 13th place Burghley mount, and my mare's half brother.

Ody is definitely a very cool horse! I used own a 1/2 sib to Ody - she was 3/4 RID though. Maggie and Ody's dam Ardglare (registered as Diamond Down with the IDHS) was a small, traditional Irish Draught mare by Diamond King (small mare, mighty genetic punch!). Windfield Farm in Pennsylvania have an RID granddaughter of this mare as well, and the owner of my mare's full brother used to be on COTH...she events in the SE USA. Small world!

[denny]

One thing that needs to be stressed is what Walter Christensen, former Olympic coach of the Swedish dressage team, told me about the Holsteiner breed.
Walter was worried that, in the trend toward lighter, more athletic horses, the Holsteiner breeders were losing their "seed corn", the big, full blooded Holsteiner mares (especially the mares) that replenish the requisite qualities in a given breed.
So some breeders need to stay "pure", even against the commercial tendencies that put pressure on them, Walter told me.

[Holsteiner jumper]

Very possible that she is the breeder of my mare and Ody, non? BigRuss1996?

[Waterwitch]

He`s a big boy, big feet, big crest, big bone, big strong back and loins, etc, so I`m assuming that the unknown 3rd dam was not a lightweight.

This brings up an important point. If Irish Draught breeders stop breeding strong substantial purebreds and instead follow what seems to be the warmblood trend of breeding ever lighter leggier (and sometimes) hotter horses...you will not see these wonderful essential breed characteristics maintained through to the third cross in the ISH. ISH breeders seem to get that :) Now if we could convince our purebred breeders!

ETA: Must have been typing at the same time, denny!

[Waterwitch]

Very possible that she is the breeder of my mare and Ody, non? BigRuss1996?

Yep! Ardglare was then sold to Penmerryl Farm who bred my mare and Windfield Farm's mare.

[SandyUHC]

I completely agree that you don't ride the papers, Denny, but my point was if he is actually only 1/8 RID then if my math is right you are down to 1/16th ID in TB offspring. Which apparently is enough for the eventers that are successful anyway.

My boy is 1/4 RID and he has more bone than I ever would have guessed would come out of his elegant mamma. If I was younger and more serious about eventing then 1/8th might have suited me better but 1/16th might not be quite enough of that famed ID temperament to save my butt.

Sadly enough I want to avoid that giant kick-up over the fence because my Supergirl cape got lost at the cleaners a few years back. He's only coming 2 so time will tell but hey, I'm just happy to be on the ID bandwagon!

[Ravencrest_Camp]

Steeped in Luck RID actually has a ten inch cannon, he's not "light" at all. He's being kept clipped to the gnat's patootie for showing dressage, which makes him look somewhat more streamlined than he actually is - also, he's young, and still not done growing. I expect to see him put on body a bit more.


I was going to make the same comment.

I saw Steeped in Luck advertised and I went to see him in 2006 as I was looking for a RID to breed a TB mare. In the ads he looks quite a bit more "streamlined" than he did in person.

[SandyUHC]

He takes up Tom Dvorak's leg nicely! : - )

(Scroll down)
http://www.pairadoxfarm.com/page/page/2683046.htm

[Sassenach]

He takes up Tom Dvorak's leg nicely! : - )

(Scroll down)
http://www.pairadoxfarm.com/page/page/2683046.htm

I like him a lot!!! :yes:

[SueCoo2]

I'd highly recommend this stallion (link below):

http://deanfieldfarm.com/Home_Page.html

Especially if you want excellent conformation and temperment. :yes:

[Janet]

What do you all know about It's The Luck of the Irish (1996 RID)? I'm looking at a three year old by him... sporty enough for the eventers? I think it's out of a TB mare.

*** edit, out of an arab mare..... hmmmm. shrug.
IIRC, a previous owner also bred arabs, and produce quite a few RID x Arab crosses. I heard that some of them were very good jumpers. But no personal knowledge.

[AdAblurr02]

I'd highly recommend this stallion (link below):

http://deanfieldfarm.com/Home_Page.html

Especially if you want excellent conformation and temperment. :yes:


I can personally attest to Braveheart's get - we have TWO of them, a colt and a filly, and one colt by Steeped in Luck. These kids are all the Real Deal - Irish through and through, solid, correct, super nice movers, super athletes, and temperaments to die for. These are the Irish babies we got into this thing for!

Debbie, Braveheart's owner, is just the nicest lady - and she is also an OUTSTANDING person to work with for breeding. Ships out of Texas A&M, so you know your vet is getting all the info and best service. She rides her horse every weekend either foxhunting or eventing - and he's a perfect gentleman.

The Douglases, who own Steeped in Luck, are also great to work with and very supportive. You can't go wrong with either stallion. I hope that people can say that about our boy some day!

[AdAblurr02]

What do you all know about It's The Luck of the Irish (1996 RID)? I'm looking at a three year old by him... sporty enough for the eventers? I think it's out of a TB mare.

*** edit, out of an arab mare..... hmmmm. shrug.

SUPER stallion, his owners are now getting him out more - he was kind of "lost" to the breed for a while. Very nice people, great to work with. His babies so far are looking very good!

[horsetales]

The arab x Lucky crosses I've seen going have been doing very well in the hunter and dressage rings. They seem to all be 15.2-16 hh and were not heavy, only 1 I saw was on the heavier side. IMHO he is one of those stallions that produces better than himself. I hope to use him this year with one of my pure breds. He has a wonderful temperment and his owners are super nice. They would be more than willing to talk to you about him or his offspring (he is down in Ocala showing now).

[lucky dog farm]

I own a wonderful big moving RID mare and two of her sons. One of her sons is ISH out of a Bruce Davidson advanced horse. He is just starting his career in eventing and would make a great event horse if his owner would just do it. Her other son Is a full Irish Draught out of Macha Breeze. He is a very uphill guy with good bone and the best temperment. He could probably do training level where as his brother could go all the way. Out of these three horses I would say the mom is the most forward/sensitive of the three. Now I hope to take the older ISH to a Denny camp this year and get him out and competing!

[TBlitz]

Since we're on the ID topic anyways... anyone care to share the growing habits of the young ones? Please tell me that they grow like weeds in their first year and then only grow 3-4 inches the remaining growing years. :winkgrin:

My little guy has been shooting up since weaning and at exactly 9 months (http://tblitz.myphotoalbum.com/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album02&id=Mark_and_Blitz_004)measured 14.3hh at the withers and 15.0 1/2 at his enormous rump. He's even grown since then, and I'm afraid to take the measuring stick to him again :eek: His booty is as wide as my TBs now! Is he going to be a monster?

Do I need to have him standing around balancing my text books and dictionaries on his back in order to have him slow down growing? :lol: Or maybe it's a breed thing to slow down immensely starting VERY soon! He has a little bit of TB in his pedigree (http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/flagmounts+trademark), so maybe he's shooting up early...? *hopeful thinking*

[titan]

Sad news in MI. The RID stallion Loguestown Blue's Man was hit by a car after excaping his paddock and was euthanized. I don't know him personally but I was very sorry to hear it. His owner is involved with CANTER and keeps many of the rescues at her farm.

[AdAblurr02]

It's a horrible thing... evidently the driver was impaired, per police that talked to the owner. It was a hit and run, at night, I have not heard that the dirty bugger is caught yet.
How anybody could hit a horse and not stop is beyond me....

shaking head sadly.

[Sassenach]

Sad news in MI. The RID stallion Loguestown Blue's Man was hit by a car after excaping his paddock and was euthanized. I don't know him personally but I was very sorry to hear it. His owner is involved with CANTER and keeps many of the rescues at her farm.

:( Oh no, how awful!

[AdAblurr02]

Since we're on the ID topic anyways... anyone care to share the growing habits of the young ones? Please tell me that they grow like weeds in their first year and then only grow 3-4 inches the remaining growing years. :winkgrin:
<SNIP>

Well, your mileage may vary :)

I wouldn't say that any I've been around have gained "most" of their height in the first year. Maybe by two.... Our purebred colt was a fairly good sized yearling, but "normal". He was a tad over 16 hands at two, 16:2-1/2 at inspection at the age of three years four months, and has since added a bit more - AND his butt is shooting up again. Sigh. I have to stand on a bucket to curry his back.

The sporthorse kids follow the same pattern, but do all seem to really get that TB high rear end as yearlings - the twos are starting to even out a bit, but still ahve a lot of growing to do by their leg measurements. My "opinion" is that most all of the height is there at three - but these Irishbreds grow a long time, and mature slowly.

[crosscreeksh]

This sad news was on the Irish message board. How terrible for Martha and all connections.

As for growth in ISH kids...our Touch of the Blues colt was about 13.3 at 10 months - I was very worried - we had a TB colt who was 15.2 at the same age!! But the Irish colt has sprouted to about 15.2+ at 18 months. ALL in proportion!! Never went up one end or the other. Now he just looks like a mature horse..and is still growning. He should top out at 17 or more hands.

[Waterwitch]

Needless to say this is is a huge loss for Irish Draught breeders :( This young stallion was a very important outcross for purebred breeders in North America. Not to mention he was just a lovely person to be around. Godspeed Rocky.

[lucky dog farm]

My full RID baby has always grown level. Never butt high. Now at 4 coming 5 he stands 16'3 and I hope he STOPS. I'm not sure because his mom is 17 hands and his dad , Macha Breeze, is 16.2. His brother , the ISH, was always butt high until he turned 6 and hopefully is finished at 16.2. He finally leveled out as well. I'm thinking the TB blood makes them grow faster but not sure. I am so sorry to here about Blue's man. That, I think, is every horse owners nightmare.............

[Debbie]

TBlitz, I bought my IDSH filly at 19 months and a hair under 16 hands, now she's coming 5 and right at 16.3, so she definitely gained the majority of her height early. I suspect mileage varies widely on growth patterns. ;) Try not to fret in the meantime!

[columbus]

I have only raised purebreds and have seen every combination even from foals from the same mare. I did however have the champion of the ugly yearling contest in 2001 and we joked then that the reason the Irish Had 7 foot hedges was to hide the yearling and two year old Irish Draught babies in their pastures. What I have seen is that if you loved them at 3 to 4 months then in the end you will have the horse you wanted. I encourage Irish Draught breeders to take lots of baby pictures because you will have to use them for marketing for several years.

That said I have one pretty filly who has never gotten ugly and her mother was both the Royal DUblin Society Champion Irish Draught foal in 2000 and then was the Champion of the ugly yearling of 2001 and a few people here saw her and I believe it was a uncontested decision. She was terrible until three and started catching up at three. She was 16.3 1/2 at late three and the inspector(one of the best part of Irish Draughts are the Irish inspectors and their information and kindness and sense of fun) held up two fingers and said "Two years lassie(I have never been called lassie before unless canine comparisons were intended)" He was right but it took four years and she is glorious at 7. By 7 she had only grown a 1/2 inch taller but was completely morphed body wise...you would have had to see it to believe it. PatO

[TBlitz]

He is a full ID baby, but he does have some TB influence from Clover Hill, so that's why I added that he has some TB blood, though he's not an IDSH. My baby's daddy is only 16.1, so I'm not expecting Mark to be a giant (though his mom- I adore her- is ~16.3). He'd be perfect if he stopped right in between them. :yes:

He hasn't really grown too unevenly compared to other babies, but you can tell every week that he's growing either in the front or hind. His feet look like they're going to be just like his mom's-- huge dinner plates! He also suffers from "only-child syndrome" (needs human attention ALL the time) and makes me stay with him for hours and then give pitiful whinnies when I leave. It's so cute that he would rather spend time with his human than with other horses :)

[gortmore]

Since I have a Clover Hill son as well that is 16.1hh I can comment on that part of your horse's pedigree in terms of size. Clover Hill was a good 16.3hh from my understanding. I do know that my stallion's full sisters are all 16.2-16.3hh and my stallion is adding height on to the smaller mares. Most of his foals are ending up in the 16.1-16.3hh range but I have had one out of a 15.1hh Trakenher go to 16.3hh as a 4 year old. Our foals tend to keep growing until late 6 year olds and I know that D'Arcy added an 1.5" from 4-7years. Ours are also tending to lay the bone down later which is actually very interesting. Now that may just be my own foals but they seem to get more bone and bigger joints starting around the age of 3. It's very weird and it does not make sense to me but hey.

I am a tad worried about my two year old. He is by far the tallest, leggiest foal we have had. His full brothers were all at 15.1-15.2 hhs as 2 year olds and the two that are mature are a good 16.2hh. This two year old was 16.1hh at 19 months. I am thinking he is going to be a monster and being that I don't like my own horses to be taller than 16.2hh he is sadly going to be for sale.

[Equilibrium]

Without overstepping my mark, could someone tell me the best place to advertise fully registered draught colts? They are not mine, they are for my friend Carol.

I just have to say also, you couldn't find the cutest most awkward foals when they first hit the ground. It seems they take a day or so more to unfold!Carol always calls me when they first hit the ground. I take loads of pics and the next week it's like looking at a diffrent foal. Let's just say last year's foal was jokingly named Willy Wonky at birth. A week later we were calling him Will!

Oh and whoever mentioned the hedges, yes they do come in handy for all sorts of things!

Any help on the first part of my email would be great.

Thanks
Terri

[Fred]

Somehow, it seems, my recommendation of Steeped in Luck in my original post, was taken as a criticism.
To clarify: It was a compliment.

I intended my phrase 'lighter in build' as a compliment. It is a relative term. It does not mean 'insubstantial'. I did not actually have a tape measure at hand each of the times I have seen him, so I was not out in the field measuring his cannon bones, but he gave me the impression of being elegant and quite refined, both in the pasture and under saddle.

Keith and Liz, his owners, are terrific people, and I consider them friends. In the very near future one of my best mares will be going to their farm for repro work.

[awm]

My TB mare ( granddaughter of Turn To!) has a 7yr. old by Lucky that was lightly
worked til last year, then put into formal training & was out in our Hunt field & whipping-in
within weeks.

He received many compliments by all who rode him, he was leading seasoned hunters
over coops, he is very sure-footed for a 17 hd. fella, and is not for sale!

It's great that Lucky is back in the breeding shed!
Ann

[Sassenach]

I have only raised purebreds and have seen every combination even from foals from the same mare. I did however have the champion of the ugly yearling contest in 2001 and we joked then that the reason the Irish Had 7 foot hedges was to hide the yearling and two year old Irish Draught babies in their pastures. What I have seen is that if you loved them at 3 to 4 months then in the end you will have the horse you wanted. I encourage Irish Draught breeders to take lots of baby pictures because you will have to use them for marketing for several years.

That said I have one pretty filly who has never gotten ugly and her mother was both the Royal DUblin Society Champion Irish Draught foal in 2000 and then was the Champion of the ugly yearling of 2001 and a few people here saw her and I believe it was a uncontested decision. She was terrible until three and started catching up at three. She was 16.3 1/2 at late three and the inspector(one of the best part of Irish Draughts are the Irish inspectors and their information and kindness and sense of fun) held up two fingers and said "Two years lassie(I have never been called lassie before unless canine comparisons were intended)" He was right but it took four years and she is glorious at 7. By 7 she had only grown a 1/2 inch taller but was completely morphed body wise...you would have had to see it to believe it. PatO

I think it's an Irish thing - have a mare from a bloodline that is known for being extremely late developers.

My grandfather's last stallion was from that same line and all I can say was that the Inspectors must have felt pretty damn generous when inspecting him at two because it took until he was about 8 until he looked something decent...

Mare we have here is being hidden in the back pasture until she's 7 or so and I will do my best not to take pictures of her. With that line the saying goes 'they won't get looked at 3 or 4 but by 6 and 7 they bring home the ribbons.'

You know it's a bad thing when your mother looks at your dad and goes 'WHY did you name the UGLY one after me?'

[JSWiley]

Hi, If you want an Irish Sport Horse stallion, check out Silver Galtee from Greyhaven Sport Horses. They are located in NY, and their website is www.greyhavensporthorses.com (http://www.greyhavensporthorses.com) . Good luck!

[Sassenach]

Hi, If you want an Irish Sport Horse stallion, check out Silver Galtee from Greyhaven Sport Horses. They are located in NY, and their website is www.greyhavensporthorses.com (http://www.greyhavensporthorses.com) . Good luck!

Nice!! :yes:

[silver2]

Very nice! I saw Silver Granite when he was younger many times and he was a fabulous horse. One of my favourite. Nice to see a son of his in the US.

Of course, now I want some rashers ;)

[Ravencrest_Camp]

Hi, If you want an Irish Sport Horse stallion, check out Silver Galtee from Greyhaven Sport Horses. They are located in NY, and their website is www.greyhavensporthorses.com (http://www.greyhavensporthorses.com) . Good luck!

He certainly does look lovely. Does anyone know what his stud fee? I can't seem to find it on the web site.

Looking at his pedigree, his sire was RID and his dam was 1/4 RID 3/4 TB, does that make him 5/8 RID?

[lucky dog farm]

I own a Silver Granite daughter who is just a beautiful mover and jumper. Her tempermant is outstanding and she is just a great all around horse. I can't say enough good things about the breeding.

[Foxtrot's]

Can somebody explain to me why the Irish have Irish Draughts, but Clydesdales etc. are Drafts?

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Can somebody explain to me why the Irish have Irish Draughts, but Clydesdales etc. are Drafts?

No, Clydesdales are also Draughts, as are Shires, Suffolks, Percherons and all Draught breeds. The other spelling is American.

[columbus]

The Draught as in Irish Draught Horse is the breed's name. It was given to the breed by the British. There has been lots of discussion about whether this was a good choice but I remember reading of someone who would have thanked the Englishman who chose the word Draught to name this all purpose native breed of Ireland. By using the term Draught it ensures that the lovers of the Irish Draught are constantly reminded of the importance of substance and bone and power to the charecter of the breed. If the choice had been Irish Warmblood it would be an enormous struggle to fight the drag toward the trend of other continental warmblood breed to ever lighten until the unique charecter of the Irish Draught breed was lost. Perhaps think of all the uses of the word draught...the militaries of Europe went to Ireland to find the horses for war. They were drafted. The Irish Farmers used the breed for all farm duties and that included plowing. There are many stories of the legendary stallions of the breed spending the off season working the farm often paired with the farms mare. They were draft horses in part as well. Then that post hunt,all day over stone fences and hedges and through heavy footing carrying the farmer, ending perhaps at the pub...for a pint of good Draught beer.

The Irish Draught is the heaviest light horse breed as opposed to the lightest draft horse breed. They would be more comparable to the original purpose of the Morgan. Truely all purpose...draft, yes, but hunt horse too, and cart the family to church, then the mares produced some of the worlds best military horses, then field hunters, and then jumpers as the sports evolved. And now I have a nifty dressage horse too. PatO

[Janet]

No, Clydesdales are also Draughts, as are Shires, Suffolks, Percherons and all Draught breeds. The other spelling is American.
"Draft" and "Draught" are just variant spellings of the same word.

Like "plow" and "plough".

[Westglen Farm]

When I first got involved with The Irish Draught there was quite the discussion that although they are called an Irish Draught they are genetically a warmblood just mis-named but as Pat posted for us who want to keep then traditional and not like the 'modern warmblood' it is a great reminder on a daily basis that we want to keep the 'draughtiness'. I also would like to point out that the cold blooded actual DRAFT is spelled different that our Irish DRAUGHT. To me it is not like plow or plough.

[Janet]

I also would like to point out that the cold blooded actual DRAFT is spelled different that our Irish DRAUGHT. To me it is not like plow or plough. The spelling is only different in the US.

The Americans preserved the "British" spelling for "Irish Draught" (presumably because it is IN the name of the breed), but use the American simplified spelling "draft" for the generic term.

Yes, the Irish Draught is a "Light Draught" (aka "carraige horse" and or "all purpose horse"), like the Cleveland Bay. Until the last half century, "draught work" (i.e., "pulling" a cart or a plough) was a part of the Irish Draught's job description, as well as taking the farmer hunting.

A "Light Draught" is indeed quite different from a "Heavy Draught" such as a Shire, a Clydesdale, or a Suffolk Punch.

In British English, the spelling "draught" is (or at least has been, the American spelling has taken over in some contexts) used for all the meanings of the word spelled "draft" in America
-A wind blowing through the building because someone left the door open.
-Beer out of a cask
-A drink
-The first (or early) version of a manuscript
-The conscription of soldiers
-The below-water height of a ship
-A horse that pulls a plow, a cart, or a carriage
-A written payment from a bank
-A "pull" in general.

[imapepper]

Formula One is 3/4 tb, 1/8 RID, and 1/8 breeding unknown. He`s a big boy, big feet, big crest, big bone, big strong back and loins, etc, so I`m assuming that the unknown 3rd dam was not a lightweight.
Look at the video on the website below, or go see him at U-Mass, and you`ll see that he`s just the type to cross with full tbs to get that 7/8ths TYPE, regardless of what that 3rd dam was.
Look at some of the photos of some of his foals, especially a couple of the ones Jacquie Mars bred, to see that even out of full tb mares, they clearly aren`t full tb.
The other thing is to carefully watch that freaky jumping ability, and that movement. He didn`t get all of that, I don`t think, from the tb side alone.
I care about the athlete more than the papers. In 55 years of competing at every level, I`ve yet to ride a set of papers.

Have you crossed him on any smaller TB mares? And if so, do you have photos of the foal? And what are the registration options for his foals out of TB mares? Just curious....he is lovely.

[AdAblurr02]

Originally Posted by denny View Post
Formula One is 3/4 tb, 1/8 RID, and 1/8 breeding unknown.

Have you crossed him on any smaller TB mares? And if so, do you have photos of the foal? And what are the registration options for his foals out of TB mares? Just curious....he is lovely.

Lovely he well may be, but at only 1/8 Irish Draught blood, he is not himself eligible to be inspected and approved as RIDSH.

If you breed to this good horse, your registration options will be limited to what he is registered with, or what your mare is eligible for (ie some of the warmblood books) or PHR, or similar performance databases. Of course, if the mare is listed in a color registry and you were lucky enough to get color, there's always that route!

PS, Denny, I do appreciate your comment on riding the papers - having been raised on a working cow ranch, I never saw a barn that had a calf worth a darn either! :)

Kate

[denny]

I`ve been involved with breeds and I`ve been involved in disciplines, and there can be a world of difference between the two.
Breed people---RID, Morgan, Arab, QH, whatever, tend to value a horse by whether or not the horse in question either is or is not a member of their chosen breed.
A Morgan person won`t typically attend an Arab show, and you won`t find many Connemara breeders at Hanoverian inspections. Yes, there are a few breed people who aren`t breed specific, but most are like sports fans.
If you are A Red Sox fan, and your friend is a Yankees fan, neither is likely to convert the other. It`s like arguing about religion or politics.
An event rider needs a horse that can win an event. Same for dressage, reining, show jumping, whatever.
I am mainly a rider. My World Championship horse Victor Dakin was said to be 1/2 tb, 1/4 Irish Draught, 1/8 Arab and 1/8 Morgan.
But his lack of papers didn`t stop Prince Phillip from handing him his gold medal.
When I went to Ireland to look at Formula One, I knew exactly what I wanted, a big, straight legged, uphill horse, with big hard feet, a loose way of moving, lots of bone, but not so big that I couldn`t cross him with tb mares, plentiful in the USA, to get the 7/8ths bred type that we see at Rolex, Badminton, and Burghley.
Bigger boned than most full tbs, more "uphill", better quality feet, good in the brain, stronger across the back and loins than the typical tb, but (this is a big BUT) fast enough to make the time of 570 meters/minute x-c, even in hot, muddy, humid or other adverse conditions.
Yes, I like Irish horses, but, no, I`m not breed specific about it.
Papers, no papers, I want a good horse.
Look at the video, www.tamarackhill.com, and watch Formula One move and jump.
Would having RID papers make him a better athlete?
I have great respect for breeders who strive to preserve the breed characteristics of all kinds of breeds, but I find myself most drawn to horses who can run and jump, registered or not, knowing intellectually that some breeders are keeping the well full of "pure" water, but also knowing that that isn`t my personal priority.

[witherbee]

Just have to say that I love my RID by Rockrimmon Silver Diamond aka "Jack"- size, beautiful neck and topline and a really light way of going. Jack was sent back to Ireland, so that puts him out of the OPs requirements, but I sure love my boy!

Here are some pics of my Orchard Hill's Diamond Drop:

http://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/wtryan/Our%20horses/?action=view&current=100_3198.jpg

http://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/wtryan/Our%20horses/?action=view&current=100_3157.jpg

http://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/wtryan/Our%20horses/?action=view&current=100_3156.jpg

http://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/wtryan/Our%20horses/?action=view&current=100_3159.jpg
* not me riding...

[imapepper]

Denny, I absolutely agree that you do not ride the papers. And if I breed my mare and got a colt (which would become a gelding) I don't give a hoot about papers. Especially since I am going to be breeding for myself. My mare is not eligible for any warmblood registries since she is a little mare. Most WB registries that I have looked into want mares to be over 15.1...not sure why since she can easily make the steps and has plenty of jump. I would love to just clone her but would settle for a stallion that has very similar jumping style to hers....like your boy :) I do know that sometimes things don't always work out as you plan though and would like to make sure if I bred something, that it would be marketable just in case :) And I am mostly day dreaming anyways since if I bred my mare, I would be temporarily losing my favorite ride.

[denny]

See, what I don`t get is this. Let`s say you want to try to breed an upper level event horse. You know what you need, soundness of mind and body, speed, movement, quiet brain, big jump, general overall athleticism.
And you study the horses that are at the top, and most are at least 3/4 tb, more are 7/8 tb, or 15/16 tb, or full tb.
So the only way you get a 7/8 bred is either to breed a 7/8 bred to a 7/8 bred, or to breed a full tb to a 3/4 bred. That "other", the non tb part, can be breeding unknown, or RID or any of a dozen warmblood breeds or mixtures of breeds.
But it mathematically can not be a half RID, or a full RID, to get a 7/8 thoroughbred.
So what`s the fuss?
You either want to get a 7/8 bred or you don`t.
If you don`t, don`t breed a tb mare to a 3/4 bred like Formula One.
Can you have a half bred, or a 3/4 bred at Rolex, etc? Sure.
Are there many at Rolex compared to horses with more tb?
No. Simple as that. Depends what you want.

[Waterwitch]

Denny you've made it abundantly clear that you don't care about papers and that is totally fine...but the question is: what if the *mare owner* wishes to register offspring of Formula One?

You may not care about papers but as I'm sure you are aware there are many, many mare owners who do care, and I am sure you do not mean to imply that wanting to register their potential Formula One foal makes them petty and/or uneducated about event horse breeding.

What are the options? PHR?

[denny]

I think "open" registries like the PHR are needed, for many reasons.
Reason number one--Our national federation, the USEF, continues to avoid its responsibility to sport horse breeders, by failing to create a meaningful database that lists the breeding and the performance records of horses which compete in the US.
If the USEF ever does step up to the plate, all the mixed breed athletes will have a permanent record, but until then, it`s the PHR or nothing.
Reason two. Many of our very best horses--Winsome Adante, to name a famous one, or Theodore O`Connor, to name another, are a mix and match of several breeds.
Study the pedigrees of many of the World Championship horses, as in show jumping, 2006.
Part Westphalian, part Holsteiner, part Selle Francaise, part Hanoverian, etc, etc, etc.
Great horses, but no single breed.
Once the horse trailer allowed breeders to go far from home with their mares, regional characteristics began to blur (you could breed to a stallion who wasn`t within 10- 20 miles of your mare), and what the horse trailer began, the equitainer gave wings to.
So the athletic horse of 2008 in open competition is more apt to be a mixture than any fixed breed.
So breeders who are breeding for performance, not a specific breed, and I think you`ll find these breeders at the top of the FEI leaderboard increasingly, will need open registries.
I`ve already said that there needs to be a pool of dedicated breeders who need to maintain the old, pure breeds, to keep a "wellspring" of blood to replenish the mixes.
But there is also a valid place for competition oriented stallion owners like myself to aim at a different market.
One isn`t "better",or the other "worse", we`re just different.

[Waterwitch]

One more time.

Denny, can Formula One's foals out of TB mares be registered and where?

[BeastieSlave]

I agree with denny that a good horse is a good horse - no matter what its breed or breeding.

The problem (as I see it) is that many people want to know that breeding or have those papers when the horse is young. Once it's mature and going well under saddle, there are plenty of folks who appreciate a horse for itself (read: will pay handsomely). It's a little harder for some people to envision a youngster as an adult. They might not be willing to take a chance on an unknown, or may need to rely on proven parentage and/or breed standards.

Don't registries come into play more for the horses who are being sold as youngsters? I would think that unless the parents are very special and/or have an exceptional performance record, the unregistered babies just aren't as marketable. It seems like the field is more level for horses with proven ability. Are having papers as big a deal to breeders who plan to keep their youngsters until they are going under saddle anyway?

[denny]

The Performance Horse Registry is owned by the USEF, and any horse can be registered in it. Google it for details.
Ned Bonnie originally got The Jockey Club to create the PHR for horses at least 1/2 tb, but the JC decided to drop the PHR, and Ned bought it for a dollar, and gave it to USEF.
So, yes, part breds, pure breds, all can be registered in PHR.
As years go by, and as performance and pedigree are more closely linked, I suspect the value of PHR papers will be more fully acknowledged.

[crosscreeksh]

I've been reading this thread with great interest. As owners and breeders of Reg. TB's, paints and now the proud owners of an Irish Sport Horse (1/2 TB-RID) stud prospect it is interesting to see the various views of horsemen. I stand with Denny on the idea that what most people in the performance/eventing world look for is results! We've been breeding and selling 3/4 TB-1/8 Clyde-1/8 Irish horses (no registry) for quite a few years. (One special horse went to a client of Denny's!) These horses are selling in the 5 figure amounts as green or unbroken and not ONE person ever wanted to see a copy of the horse's pedigree or asked about registry eligibility!! A true horseman looks at the body conformation, way of moving, attitude and personality and makes up his mind if the horse will "likely" do the intended job. It doesn't matter if he's part donkey if all the other criteria is met. In the race horse world there have been a lot of multimillion dollar youngsters that were sold based on pedigree, that never won a race at even cheap claiming race levels. It's a matter of deciding what a horse "should do" based on what his family tree looks like or what "he" looks like he'll be able to do. I'm sure Denny's, Formula One will have no trouble filling his book by mare owners who don't care if or what register they are eligible for - even if it's an AKC Cocker Spaniel!! A good horse is a good horse.

[Foxtrot's]

Well, I'm glad the PHR serves some useful purpose. I'd given up on it, even though I registered my horse in it. A good horse IS a good horse, but if it is a filly, it is nice to know what ingredients went into the cake-mix if someone wanted to breed her, and not all buyers are the horsemen we think they are - papers do count.

[Waterwitch]

I'll take that as a "no".

[Janet]

One more time.

Denny, can Formula One's foals out of TB mares be registered and where?
There are lots of places they can be registered, just not North American Irish Draft stuff.

AWS for one, which is where my 1/4 RID is registered.

[Waterwitch]

There are lots of places they can be registered, just not North American Irish Draft stuff.

AWS for one, which is where my 1/4 RID is registered.

There are obviously plenty of other places to register Irish horses besides the IDHS.

I have no dog in this hunt. I simply repeated the question that imapepper addressed *to the owner* of a stallion being discussed. As a mare owner, I find it fairly unusual that someone promoting their stallion is unwilling to answer this most basic question, a question that is an utterly standard component of stallion inquiries made by mare owners every day all over the world.

Therefore we are left to assume, right or wrong, that Formula One's progeny cannot be registered. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[denny]

You learned to read in a different school than me, Liz.
Read my post above again. I say, yes, PHR takes all horses. What`s confusing about the word "all"?

[Waterwitch]

At last an answer...thank you.

[Ravencrest_Camp]

You learned to read in a different school than me, Liz.
Read my post above again. I say, yes, PHR takes all horses. What`s confusing about the word "all"?

Waterwitch's confusion on the definition of the word all brings to mind one of my all time favorite quotes.

In the words of one Bill Clinton "It all depends on what your definition of the word is, is."

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[SandyUHC]

It looks like there was an intent to obfuscate the issue by not answering a simple question but instead going on and on about not needing a registry and then about a particular registry.

As a mare-owner it was important to me to have a registerable IDSH foal, both to support the breed and to be eligible for the growing number of year-end awards. I think when you say you are targeting a particular breed for your stallion it is reasonable to ask where the offspring could be registered.

[Sassenach]

http://www.theirishhorse.com/irishdraughthorseconservation.html

Interesting article on Irish Draught conservation - makes some really excellent points :yes:

[TBlitz]

Any IDSHNA members read "The Journey of Loguestown Blues Man" on the IDHS yahoo group? If not, you need to; it's very touching! Makes you feel like -->:sadsmile:

I confess to being a lurker there but never contributing in discussion. Maybe someday I'll have something worthwhile to add.

btw, I guess it was just posted around a 1/2 hr ago, so go read it!

[TBlitz]

http://www.theirishhorse.com/irishdraughthorseconservation.html

Interesting article on Irish Draught conservation - makes some really excellent points :yes:

That is a good article. I liked this part the best (Bolded part was one of the big bonuses in getting my little man):

Additionally, animals that are indigenous to certain regions, as the Irish Draught horse is to Ireland, are genetically adapted to their environment and more resilient to environmental stress. They generally remain more productive while consuming lower quality feed and are more economic to maintain. Therefore, they are extremely important sources of genes for improving the health and performance of the “industrialized” or “improved” and intensively bred animals. The Irish Draught and other breeds like it, including the Gelderlander and Cleveland Bay, provides a needed reservoir of genes that can be used to improve strength and vigor when the intensively bred sport horses begin to show signs of physical and behavioral instability.

[Janet]

It looks like there was an intent to obfuscate the issue by not answering a simple question but instead going on and on about not needing a registry and then about a particular registry. I didn't see any obfustication.

[SandyUHC]

That's how good it was!

; - )

[Foxtrot's]

Is a slightly thick neck and throat an Irish thing on cross-breds, or just some of them?

[Platinum Equestrian]

Just some... neither of my ISHs have that. ;)

[Sassenach]

http://www.acornhillfarm.com/

Any info on Carlow Clover and USA Cruising? I think my heart went all a-flutter when I saw that they had a Cruising AND a Clover Hill son :D I was a HUGE Cruising fan back when he was showing - and Clover Hill? We need a *squee* icon here ;).

Are they approved with the North American society or any such thing?

Just wondering :)

[TBlitz]

It doesn't look like either of those are Breeding approved stallions since they would have the 'R' before the ID or IDSH (and they would probably be in the IDHSNA stallion database) if they were. Their babies would not be able to be registered as breeding stock, though I think IDHSNA would let them register as an ID or IDSH. Correct me if I'm wrong.

looking at my baby's daddy's web page (http://www.prescottfarm.com/Stallions-info.html) (The Pride of Gloster), it looks like he's the only RID Clover Hill son standing in North America, with only 6 world-wide.

[Janet]

It doesn't look like either of those are Breeding approved stallions since they would have the 'R' before the ID or IDSH (and they would probably be in the IDHSNA stallion database) if they were. Their babies would not be able to be registered as breeding stock, though I think IDHSNA would let them register as an ID or IDSH. Correct me if I'm wrong.
For whatever reason, it appeas that Acorn Hill choses not to be part of the IDHSNA

[Sassenach]

For whatever reason, it appeas that Acorn Hill choses not to be part of the IDHSNA

That's a pity :(

[titan]

Acorn Hill is a pleasure to work with. I bred my Irish mare to Freedom Z last season and for an old guy his semen quality was excellent. If I had appropriate mares I would seriously consider breeding to one of their Irish stallions regardless of what papers came with. Pallas or Carrig View depending on mare type. Especially love the Carrabawn View offspring.

[Holsteiner jumper]

Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't Formula One offspring be eligible for IHB-ISH papers? The Actual irish sports horse registry?

[Sassenach]

Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't Formula One offspring be eligible for IHB-ISH papers? The Actual irish sports horse registry?

I do not believe so unless they were more than 1/8th Irish Draught.

[Janet]

Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't Formula One offspring be eligible for IHB-ISH papers? The Actual irish sports horse registry? I think the foal would have to be born in Ireland for that, but not sure.

[gillenwaterfarm]

I think the foal would have to be born in Ireland for that, but not sure.

I know an IHB approved stallion's foals are eligible, regardless of where it is born. I believe foals from mares possessing green IHB passports are eligible also. It may be however, that any foal born from one parent possessing a green IHB passport is eligible.

I also believe that it is basically a COP with the IHB, and that the resulting colt foals aren't eligible to be presented for inspection.

Also, just to clarify, the IHB's ISH papers don't care a lick about Irish Draught blood. The 1/8 ID requirement is strictly for registration with the IDHSNA.

Someone who knows better, please correct me.

[Sassenach]

Also, just to clarify, the IHB's ISH papers don't care a lick about Irish Draught blood. The 1/8 ID requirement is strictly for registration with the IDHSNA.



Yes I was thinking of IDHSNA when I wrote that my bad.

[omare]

All these handsome boys and girls are cloverhill on the dams side :0)

http://www.cloverhill.us/

I understand both Cloverhill and his owner were legends in their own time. Is it true the stud fee for the grand boy was only 30 pounds his whole stud career?

[Platinum Equestrian]

omare, Wow - I didn't even know they were in my backyard practically. I'll have to introduce myself at HITS.

[deltawave]

The Irish Horse Board registers sport horses from Ireland. They can be Connemaras, Irish Draughts, or Gypsy Vanners for all I know. :) The Irish DRAUGHT Society registers only IDs and crossbreds.

Formula One's pedigree contains an "unknown" 1 or 2 generations back that would keep him out of the ID books. That wouldn't stop me from breeding to him, though. Yummy! I have an RID x TB mare who I just adore. She's by Mountain Pearl out of my good old TB mare. She's just rising 8 and I haven't done much with her due to lack of time, but WHAT AN EASY HORSE! She wasn't blessed with superior movement, LOL, but WOW, talk about a horse that improves with work. We've got lengthenings, we've got BIG jump, we've got adjustability, and best of all the BEST work ethic, great feet and legs, and just a great brain. :yes:

I had the opportunity to ride Mountain Pearl before he went back to Ireland. What a total gentleman! Even my 3yo son got a "pony ride" on him, minutes after I'd cantered him "cold" (never had even sat on him before, ever) around a course of jumps. :)

[Sassenach]

All these handsome boys and girls are cloverhill on the dams side :0)

http://www.cloverhill.us/

I understand both Cloverhill and his owner were legends in their own time. Is it true the stud fee for the grand boy was only 30 pounds his whole stud career?

Indeed. :yes:

One year a friend of my Grandpa's decided he was going to breed his mare to him. My Grandpa went up with him and when he got there, there was a line of trailers waiting to breed.

Grandpa's friend was a bit of an idiot and hopped out of the car and told the owner 'will you trot him around for me? I'm still not sure if I want to breed to him.'

His owner looked at him like he was mad 'you come all this way and you're still not certain? You've got 5 cars behind you... fine...' So he takes Clover Hill out and trots him and stands him up.

Friend: Damn he's an ugly bastard isn't he?

Well Clover Hill's owner lit into him- cursed him as only an Irishman can - and ended with 'don't you EVER come back here. I KNOW what you look like!'

Friend turned to run away and Grandpa made to follow when Clover Hill's owner went 'hey you! Get back here! You can't leave without seeing Clover Hill!'

[TBlitz]

another question...

where do you show your purebred babies in-hand? I'd love to get my little guy out somewhere for experience. I don't think they really fit the "type" hunter or dressage judges are looking for and all the FEH events are really far away for me. Where have you found success?

If IDHSNA ends up holding an annual show, I'll make sure to make it to that. Any updates on the topic? Since I'm a 3 minute drive from Will Rogers horse show venue (Fort Worth, TX), I wouldn't mind it being there :winkgrin:

New AWW! picture (http://tblitz.myphotoalbum.com/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album02&id=Mark) of my camera-hogging little guy!

[Foxtrot's]

Deltawave - I have a foal due this summer by a Mountain Pearl grandson (To Be Sure) and am excited to hear your description of his offspring. Every single ISH from To Be Sure has had the same brain as you describe, even the 3/4 TB's, as mine will be. TBS's owner bought him as a suckling and is in the jumpers now. His trainer tells his owner she couldn't afford that horse now. I don't hear so much about Mountain Pearl since he returned to Ireland, but I'd think it was a compliment that they wanted him back.

[JSWiley]

I am not sure about what his stud fee is, I guess you just have to inquire about it. I know the owners a little since I designed their website. They are very nice and sure do have nice horses!:)

Jessie

[Sassenach]

re: the Acorn Hill stallions (yes I know many questions sorry!) .

Are their progeny registerable with the North American Irish Draught society? Or is there an appendix registry they can be put into of some sort?

Just wondering as I'm not sure how 'closed' the book is here in the States.

Thanks!

[gortmore]

It is my understanding that the foals by these stallions are not registerable with the Irish Draught Horse Society of North America. I do not think that IDHS NA has an appendix book. I am pretty sure that if you had a mare that was registered with the IDHS NA that you would be able to get papers on a foal that was bred to one of their stallions as long as the foal has 1/8th ID blood (you would want to check that as I could be wrong about that).

[Hi Jump]

Gortmore, you are way too humble, your Clover Hill stallion Clover Cliste is one of the nicest modern types for Irish I have ever seen with well set typey neck and balance, I saw the article singling him out as a top stallion they focused on out of all breeds in Sport Horse Breeders . Out of your single mare you have produced at least one horse competing at the top in the young jumpers and has done his first grand prix and another young stallion Pricelss Clover that is going to kick our butts in the ring here again this year and you outproduced his sire and dam for ability. You need to boast a little more , my own Hanoverian and Holsteiner stallions have to compete against yours in the jumping ring, in the foal classes, and in the breeding market and not only are you a worth adversary but straight up person . Are your stallions both fully approved Irish sport horse or just Clover Cliste?

Synergy Sport Horses
Home to Cotopaxi and Raffaello
http://www.synergysporthorses.net

[Waterwitch]

I am pretty sure that if you had a mare that was registered with the IDHS NA that you would be able to get papers on a foal that was bred to one of their stallions as long as the foal has 1/8th ID blood (you would want to check that as I could be wrong about that).

ETA: Just figured out "their" above refers to "Acorn Hill" not "IDHSNA" so this is correct (didn't see your post title).

The mare doesn't have to be registered. All foals by IDHSNA stallions can be registered regardless of the mare's registration status. All IDHSNA approved stallions are minimum 1/4 Irish Draught so all progeny are a minimum of 1/8 RID.

IDHS Canada will register any horse that is provably 1/8 Irish Draught regardless of approval status of its parents.

[Orkney96]

Hello,
I have read this string from beginning to end and I just have to add in my two cents!
I have been riding my Dutch horses for the past 10 years and have ridden everything else but these guys (RID and ISH) along the way. We ended up purchasing a Dutch (x R Johnson) filly last year and although she is registered RPSI she is actually half Irish - he dam is ISH - all the mares (4) that i have are all Ramiro/Nimmerdor breeding which is why i wanted this filly. Keep in mind I love my mares but i love them because the are SUPER competative and with all that comes a slightly smart/agressive mentality and they have their moments. When I started this filly under saddle she was like none of the others - she was EASY - like cake! and I knew it wasnt her Dutch breeding so I started looking into her Irish breeding and talking to people - and that did it for me! she has as much if not more talent then the rest of my mares and is just as beautiful but she has this amazing temperment, like she does everything so willingly!
SO that was it I bred both my KWPN dutch mare and my TB mare to "The Pride of Gloster" and will have foals by them this year. He can be found at http://www.prescottfarm.com/ He is by Clover Hill and is young, but I have heard nothing but great things about his offspring and they can jump!
The other stallion I was looking at was Touch of the Blues and through meeting many of his offspring, bought a full ID stud colt by him. I met him in person and his owner and he is amazing, the easiest going stallion ever and he has 7 approved sons around the world that you can see on www.manufortifarms.com.
I am a complete convert and at Finncastle Farms we will now be breeding RID/ISH. I love my colt and at 8 months, i take him everywhere, he is totally voice command, i fully body clipped him last week, and he ground drives already. Look for him in years to come, we plan to campaign him a lot to get him known. His father TotB is now 20 and he is one of the only true black colts ever thrown by him - MFF Magic Touch.
Ok, i will get of my soap box now! Just thought I would weigh in on both the WB vs ID debate and the personal experience i have with those 2 stallions!
Orkney 96
www.finncastlefarms.com

[Orkney96]

Thanks, Pat, for your insights.
I have 2 Irish horses, my 11 year old preliminary event horse, Loftus Fox, and Formula One, the horse in the video on our website, rising 6 years.
Lofty is by Taldi, according to Clare Ryan, although his passport lists his breeding as unknown, and he`s taller than Formula One, about 17 hands, but not so strongly made.
He`s a very good jumper, brave, scopey, and quick for his size. If I were 10 years younger, I`m certain he`d be an advanced horse. The limitations are mine, not his!
The stallion is about 16.2, and is actually a better jumper than Lofty, really about the best jumper I`ve owned in 50 years. He`s just a bit "big" for my personal taste, but I like the slightly smaller, quicker types in general. That`s just personal preference.
But crossed with full tbs, to get the 7/8ths cross, is why I bought him, quite specifically.
I have two yearling colts, both out of full tb mares, that I`m very keen on. Of course by the time they`re ready to start competing, I`ll be looking for some brave young kid to take them on.
Over the years we`ve had dozens of Irish crosses at our farm, and every one of them was a very nice horse, and the best were world class. It must be in your drinking water over there!!!
In response to Denny and his comments on breeding, I have to say that I have gone back to the eventing world for this mentality. Not meaning to be negative about hunters/jumpers/dressage but in those arenas - linage is everything and you have a hard time getting people to come and look at your horse when you say - he is a little bit of this and little bit of that, until they have jumped moon. From the breeding side of it I understand that purchasing a young horse with no papers is a hard sell. However I have to say that what we have at Finncastle Farms right now is a big mix, but with one solid common thread - all our mares have papers (mostly Dutch), but none of the are "pure anything" and yet they will take from the foxhunting field to the jumper ring and save your butt on the event field, they are all sound and very sane and that is what we want from our breeding stock - safe, sane and good at their job, i refuse to breed anymare that cant pass that test.
My first event horse, that i went a long ways with was a 16H, percheron/qh/appaloosa/arab - so go figure! and if i could have him back, i would sacrifice all that i have now.
I have two things that I think we should all stick by in breeding - soundness and sanity - that often are getting overlooked - papers or none!

[Waterwitch]

I've always wondered if there was an Irish connection to this stallion's story...he goes back to a horse called Telstar (there was an Irish stallion by this name). There was also an "R Johnson" who was a famous horse dealer who brought lots of Irish horses into Europe...wonder if R Johnson the stallion is named after him.

[AdAblurr02]

<SNIP>meeting many of his offspring, bought a full ID stud colt by him. I met him in person and his owner and he is amazing, the easiest going stallion ever and he has 7 approved sons around the world that you can see on www.manufortifarms.com.
<SNIP>His father TotB is now 20 and he is one of the only true black colts ever thrown by him - MFF Magic Touch.
Ok, i will get of my soap box now! <SNIP>
Orkney 96
www.finncastlefarms.com


Well, WELCOME to the growing group of confirmed Irish Draught fanatics!

Oh, may I please correct you on a couple of minor points - TOTB now has EIGHT fully approved RID sons, our boy being the most recent :)

Plus, there are two true black approved RID sons, On a High RID and Penmerryl's Rhythm and Blues RID, and many other black sons and daughters, including On a High's full sister Dandelion Nora Blue RID.

I am in full agreement on Simone and Doug, Flynn's owners - they are wonderful people.

I'm sure as your boy grows up you will appreciate the Irish attitude even more - just be sure to keep himm busy and happy, as their mighty Irish brains are easily bored when they don't have anything to do!

Cheers,
Kate

[Orkney96]

Actually they are two different horse (Telstar). But I love the Dutch Telstar and we have a mare by him and then obviously the R Johnson filly goes back to him as well -R Johnson is making a name for himself with his eventing offspring and this filly you could pay me a million bucks for, she is awesome! But two different horses there is a Dutch one and an Irish one!
Orkney96

[denny]

Orkney96;
I think what we`re seeing on this thread, and others, is the difference in both approach and objective between pedigree people and breed people.
To me, pedigree is very important, but breed is not.
I tend to like "mix `n match" in a horse. While I like many full thoroughbreds, at least as many others need a "leavening effect" of something calmer, stronger, more uphill, better hooves, more bone------etc.
This is usually Irish, but even in Ireland it`s increasingly likely to be some varient of warmblood.
Look at Cavalier Royale, who stood in Ireland, but was pure Holsteiner. As time passes, breed characteristics tend to become blurred, because performance/pedigree people, like me, will breed to horses like him who get the job done on the fields of battle, so to speak.
This doesn`t mean that the breeders who stay the course with the traditional bloodlines aren`t needed. In a way, they are needed more than ever, because you need a wellspring of old fashioned blood to allow you to cross out to get the ultimate performance horses.
I feel that there is often a hint of adversarial relationship in these discussions, as if one viewpoint is right, and, therefore, the other wrong.
Both are right. It depends upon your personal objectives which is right for you.

[Orkney96]

Well, WELCOME to the growing group of confirmed Irish Draught fanatics!

Oh, may I please correct you on a couple of minor points - TOTB now has EIGHT fully approved RID sons, our boy being the most recent :)

Plus, there are two true black approved RID sons, On a High RID and Penmerryl's Rhythm and Blues RID, and many other black sons and daughters, including On a High's full sister Dandelion Nora Blue RID.

I am in full agreement on Simone and Doug, Flynn's owners - they are wonderful people.

I'm sure as your boy grows up you will appreciate the Irish attitude even more - just be sure to keep himm busy and happy, as their mighty Irish brains are easily bored when they don't have anything to do!

Cheers,
Kate
Kate,
I should be slapped for not remembering that your fantastic stallion had been approved this year, as he was one that Simone noted for me to look at before he was approved to get and idea of Flynns offspring - and for those reading this looking to breed you should look at Manu Forti's Touch Down RID - Simone and Doug even put me up in their own home when i went out looking at her horses this year, they are so nice. And TOTB is beyond breath taking and what a sweetheart - I would have taken him home with me but Simone wouldnt part with him!

And yes you are correct that there are some others that are true black, but not "many" available in the US for breeding purposes, so that is what i was referring too.
Well you can wish Manu Forti's Magic Touch luck when he goes for his inspection, "Merlin" is doing his first show on 2/29 at FEH @ the Ark to start getting ready! I absolutely love him and the fact that he loves to busy and finding out new things.
Can I ask how tall TD is now? is he still growing? Merlin is 14H at 8 months and where as his mom is by The Pride of GLoster and is only 16.1, i will be interested to see how big he gets?
Thanks for welcoming me in and hope you are up for answering all my questions that I have now and down the road!
Orkney96

[Orkney96]

Orkney96;
I think what we`re seeing on this thread, and others, is the difference in both approach and objective between pedigree people and breed people.
To me, pedigree is very important, but breed is not.
I tend to like "mix `n match" in a horse. While I like many full thoroughbreds, at least as many others need a "leavening effect" of something calmer, stronger, more uphill, better hooves, more bone------etc.
This is usually Irish, but even in Ireland it`s increasingly likely to be some varient of warmblood.
Look at Cavalier Royale, who stood in Ireland, but was pure Holsteiner. As time passes, breed characteristics tend to become blurred, because performance/pedigree people, like me, will breed to horses like him who get the job done on the fields of battle, so to speak.
This doesn`t mean that the breeders who stay the course with the traditional bloodlines aren`t needed. In a way, they are needed more than ever, because you need a wellspring of old fashioned blood to allow you to cross out to get the ultimate performance horses.
I feel that there is often a hint of adversarial relationship in these discussions, as if one viewpoint is right, and, therefore, the other wrong.
Both are right. It depends upon your personal objectives which is right for you.
Denny,
I totally agree that there is no "right" answer and it depends on the objective - but I do have to say that I started a thread hoping to get people involved in the FEH and YEH to start getting more attention to breeding for event horses and so people that are looking to bred have something to look at know what the objectives are for breeding for this sport. It would also be great to get more clinics done by people like yourself, that have ridden so many different horses to the upper levels, to make sure the rest of us are headed in the right direction with our breeding programs! (shameless hint!) I will be really interested to see what I get for comments on my colt (by TOTB) and filly (by Cicera's Icewater) at the FEH at the ARK in a few weeks.
If we do the right thing with the breeding programs there should be no problem in the next few years to sell horses that may not be papered into a certain registery at birth but by proven parents and that show the desired traits to be great event horses and are approved by PHR and do well in the FEH/YEH competitions.
Orkney96

[GreekDressageQueen]

I would stay away from Prescott's Diamond because he has a bad temperament. He is also quite small. PM me if you want more details. I give 2 BIG thumbs up for Braveheart who is incredibly sweet, lovely mover, and all-round great stallion. I also really like Double Diamond and had a chance to see him go when Jutta was at StarGate.

Good luck!

[gortmore]

Thanks Synergy for the lovely things you said about my stallions. We are very exicted about Priceless Clover. And yes they are both approved.

When I brought Clover Cliste, RIDSH, over from Ireland and bred him the first year there was frowning going on as I was breeding him to warmblood mares. I love my warmblood mare, Mirabell, but to be honest she is just to big and to much work for me to ride and put together. I bred her to our stallion who is by Clover Hill and out of an Ozymandias (xx) mare and the foals have been outstanding. My goal was to get the power and jump from the Warmblood and the soundness and brain from the Irish. We seemed to have managed that. The first foal , Clover All Over, competed this year in the 7 yr old young jumper program and was 3rd in the midwest finals, 2nd in his zone for the year and 34th in the Nation. He did his first Grand Prix at 4'9" in October and was 9th with one rail down and the fastest time. His trainer loves him and says he is very easy. He was purchased to be a 3'6" hunter. The next foal we had is probably better and I would have to agree with Lisa that Priceless Clover is probably better than his sire.

I really don't understand why people get hung up on a 'breed'. The German and Dutch have dominated in show jumping and dressage for years and my personal take on that is, use what they have produced to get the ultimate performance horse. I do think that pedigrees need to be traceable and that stallions should have approvals some how but you know what, look at the breeding of any Holsteiner, Hanoverian, Dutch, Belgium, Westphalian etc and you will see an infusion of many other breeds. I do think that we need breeders to continue to breed to older type, traditional, full IDs, older, heavier types of Warmblood but for many performance is performance and if it can't perform I personally don't want to own it. Don't think that I take my non performing horses and get rid of them, I have a 36 yr old pony here, I have my broodmare etc. but if I was not producing really good horses I would not breed anymore the world does not need another mediocre horse. The other thing to look at, and this from someone with purebred dogs, is that humans can interfer and get so carried away on bloodlines and certain characteristics to the detriment of others. Look what has happened with many breeds of dogs, there are those that are beautiful to look at and can not do their job at all, and there are those that can sure do their job but boy are they ugly. There has to be a happy medium. If the best horse for roping cows on is an Arab x QH do you not think that that is what those roping cows would use?

There is an old saying "no good horse is a bad colour" the same can be held for breeds "no good horse is a bad breed" they can either do the job at the level we want and stay sound or they can not.

[Waterwitch]

I would stay away from Prescott's Diamond because he has a bad temperament. He is also quite small. PM me if you want more details. I give 2 BIG thumbs up for Braveheart who is incredibly sweet, lovely mover, and all-round great stallion. I also really like Double Diamond and had a chance to see him go when Jutta was at StarGate.

Good luck!

That's interesting. I saw this horse's inspection and have met him in person. Not only is he an incredible jumper but when I met him he appeared to have a great temperament - he was handled by his amateur lady owner for his approval and was extremely well behaved and not studdish. He has been very successful showjumping in California and Texas. He was at least 16.1 as a three year old (probably taller now)...but I guess that is small to some people.

No worries however, he is currently in quarantine to be exported back to Ireland where I am sure they will be happy to have a Flagmount King stallion back in the country.

BTW I agree about Braveheart - who I have also been fortunate enough to meet - he is a great all around stallion with a great temperament and also not overly tall.

[Sassenach]

That's interesting. I saw this horse's inspection and have met him in person. Not only is he an incredible jumper but when I met him he appeared to have a great temperament - he was handled by his amateur lady owner for his approval and was extremely well behaved and not studdish. He has been very successful showjumping in California and Texas. He was at least 16.1 as a three year old (probably taller now)...but I guess that is small to some people.

No worries however, he is currently in quarantine to be exported back to Ireland where I am sure they will be happy to have a Flagmount King stallion back in the country.

BTW I agree about Braveheart - who I have also been fortunate enough to meet - he is a great all around stallion with a great temperament and also not overly tall.

Good to hear that some (more) stallions are being exported back :)

[crosscreeksh]

Raising my hand as another proud and satisfied owner of a Touch of the Blues son. Our ISH colt is 21 months old and wonderful...and BLACK...with chrome! I just LOVE a black horse! At 1/2 TB, we plan to breed him to TB mares - especially some of Rambo's painted daughters - for 3/4 TB- 1/4 RID youngsters. Maybe we'll put some "Bling" in the Irish Sports!! I haven't met TOTB in person, but we just loved his looks and way of moving and the fact that he has produced so many quality (approved) offspring. Our colt has a wonderful, sweet, sane disposition.

[Orkney96]

I have to say of all the RID stallions, I have just never heard an ill word about TOTB and I just came in from working my colt and boy I love him! (I hope the judges do!)

[gillenwaterfarm]

"Merlin" is doing his first show on 2/29 at FEH @ the Ark to start getting ready!
Orkney96

I'll be there too! I'll be handling my IDSH colt in the yearling class. He is by Macha Breeze RID and out of a Cruising/Coille Mor Hill RID/Chair Lift RIDSH mare. He is 11 months old and in front he measures a bit over 14.2. He looks very even in his growth right now, and I'm just hoping he hangs onto it for another few weeks until the show.

I'll make it a point to introduce myself to you.

[Equilibrium]

In refrence to breeding Eventers. I think the tide is changing a bit on that aspect over here at the moment. People are wanting pedigrees in the younger event horses and are looking for more blood in the eventers. The Future Event Horse League has really been quite helpful in this process. A 3yo gelding that we bred will be heading towards the FEHL next year. He's a Dutch/TB cross, but a National Hunt TB cross.

We just had a big sale of National Hunt TB's. A just turned yearling filly went through the ring from the immediate family of Moon Fleet. She wasn't sold for 3800 euros. Meaning she didn't make her reserve. My husband was at me to go up there, but we just plain have too many horses at the moment. But I reckon crossed with a nice blood type ISH she would make a fabulous producer or she has the bloodlines to do it all herself.

Denny was saying he likes to mix and match. I think that's part of what makes an ISH so appealing. You can cross almost anything and it can be registered with the IHB. Now you have papers for your foal, a passport, and the pedigree or part pedigree in your passport. By law now all horses have to be registered and microchipped.

Terri

[Orkney96]

I'll be there too! I'll be handling my IDSH colt in the yearling class. He is by Macha Breeze RID and out of a Cruising/Coille Mor Hill RID/Chair Lift RIDSH mare. He is 11 months old and in front he measures a bit over 14.2. He looks very even in his growth right now, and I'm just hoping he hangs onto it for another few weeks until the show.

I'll make it a point to introduce myself to you.
Hey Megan,
We will make great competition mates in the colt class. Merlin is full ID and out of a Pride of Gloster mare. This is his pedigree http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/manu+fortis+magic+touch
I actually mentioned earlier in the string that he was 13.3H - but last night I measured him and he is 14.1H - He has grown like a weed since he was weaned and he now 8 months! It would be great to meet you and I am glaad to see the ID/IDSH out showing what they have at the FEH!
Lisa

[gillenwaterfarm]

Lisa,
I'll be really interested to see how my guy compares standing next to yours. Paddy is 81% ID, and looks very much like a purebred. I see *some* TB infulence in him through his length of leg, but not much. I think his dam's Clover Hill blood is coming through in him. He already has 8.75" cannons. His pedigree: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/kegan+maccruise

Anyone else doing the FEH with thier ID's this year?

[horsetales]

Lisa,
I'll be really interested to see how my guy compares standing next to yours. Paddy is 81% ID, and looks very much like a purebred. I see *some* TB infulence in him through his length of leg, but not much. I think his dam's Clover Hill blood is coming through in him. He already has 8.75" cannons. His pedigree: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/kegan+maccruise

Anyone else doing the FEH with thier ID's this year?

I am thinking of getting our 3/4 ID 1/4TB out there. I've never shown before, so looking at maybe watching a couple and then try one or two shows. I can't get him to even out for long. The rear keeps going up, so hopefully this summer maybe we can get a few weeks of him looking "put together" He is by Flag of Diamonds (RID) out of Diamond Wasque (IDSH). At the least I hope to be cheering on the Irish at some of the shows :D

[TBlitz]

Orkney96,
I have a Gloster baby too! He's out of an amazing Flagmount King mare. My little guy (@10mo now 15hh :eek:) A++ on temperament and conformation. I've been wondering if TPOG throws size though since my guy is so big. Maybe you could give me some insight on that?

I received his USEF lifetime registration certificate in the mail today and wanted to hit my head against the wall when I read "Flagmount's Travelmark" as the name. WTH is a travelmark?!?!

[Janet]

Lisa,

Anyone else doing the FEH with thier ID's this year?
Not technically an ID, but I expect to take Chief out a couple of times this year. Will you be getting up to VA at all?

Chief is Premier de Kegan, Anglo-Irish-French. His damsire is Happy Ending RID.

[gillenwaterfarm]

Horsetails,
ID people always appreciate a cheering section. :)

Janet,
I should have said ID's and IDx's (sheepish grin).
Whats being offered in VA? I'm open to it. I'd love to see Chief in person.

[Sassenach]

Hope you don't mind me asking more questions.

I have a friend who is pondering the idea of breeding ISH's and RIDs (he has Connemaras and has been breeding Connemaras and is from Ireland so he knows his Irish Horses and also has some really nice TB mares who would cross well as sporthorses).

Who are the good mostly underused stallions who have good outcross lines?

I want to do some 'stallion shopping' for him and put together a nice list as he's kind of computer-phobic :)

[gillenwaterfarm]

Sass,
Mac has the outcross line of Heather Breeze RID and the performance line of Grey Macha RID. He has 21 progeny on the ground from 7 foal crops (4 purebred foals), and all are improvements over thier dams in terms of substance, bone, and athletic ability.

Other under used with outcross blood (RID): Abbeyleix Brian Boru, Celtic Moon, Dandelion Diamond Rebel, Happy Ending, Huntingfeild Proud Tim, Moorepark Image, Rhyds Sea Quest/Sir Rivie, Snowford O'Donnell, Tors Gentleman Farmer, Western Sun

[Sassenach]

Sass,
Mac has the outcross line of Heather Breeze RID and the performance line of Grey Macha RID. He has 21 progeny on the ground from 7 foal crops (4 purebred foals), and all are improvements over thier dams in terms of substance, bone, and athletic ability.

Thanks - I want to look for 'lesser used' stallions so to speak for him to get an idea of - give the 'good but doesn't get attention' ones a chance :)

[columbus]

Well, first there are no heavily used Irish Draught stallions so even more common lines are uncommon relative to a Donnerhall stallion of Weltmeyer etc. All Irish Draughts are rare and all need support. I have used KEC Double Diamond and he has thrown a lovely up hill mare who will be a very good competitive dressage horse. I have also used the stallion Hangon Johnny who was nearly unused until he was 18 and at 20 still has very good semen and ships very well. he is at www.blackshireequestrian.com/HangonJohnny.html
His offspring are younger though he has an approved Irish Draught Sport Stallion fully approved in Great Britain. Huntingfield Proud Tim also ships well and his sire line was near to extinction when his sire was found happily breeding the countrysides hunt mares and he had never seen an Irish Draught mare until his last year and he produced about 7 incredible purebreds who saved his line. www.dandelionfarm.com I think. for more go to www.irishdraught.com and see the stallion pages. This is a breed well worth saving and every single person we find to buy or breed or just pass on the information is of tremendous value to preserving Irish Draughts. I just brought my big 7 yo purebred mare into a new barn and first she behaves impeciably and she is converting people to the breed who are impressed by her class and manner and they haven't seen her move to see how athletic a big horse can be. It would be a tragedy to have these lovely horses disappear. PatO

[Sassenach]

Well, first there are no heavily used Irish Draught stallions so even more common lines are uncommon relative to a Donnerhall stallion of Weltmeyer etc. All Irish Draughts are rare and all need support. I have used KEC Double Diamond and he has thrown a lovely up hill mare who will be a very good competitive dressage horse. I have also used the stallion Hangon Johnny who was nearly unused until he was 18 and at 20 still has very good semen and ships very well. he is at www.blackshireequestrian.com/HangonJohnny.html
His offspring are younger though he has an approved Irish Draught Sport Stallion fully approved in Great Britain. Huntingfield Proud Tim also ships well and his sire line was near to extinction when his sire was found happily breeding the countrysides hunt mares and he had never seen an Irish Draught mare until his last year and he produced about 7 incredible purebreds who saved his line. www.dandelionfarm.com I think. for more go to www.irishdraught.com and see the stallion pages. This is a breed well worth saving and every single person we find to buy or breed or just pass on the information is of tremendous value to preserving Irish Draughts. I just brought my big 7 yo purebred mare into a new barn and first she behaves impeciably and she is converting people to the breed who are impressed by her class and manner and they haven't seen her move to see how athletic a big horse can be. It would be a tragedy to have these lovely horses disappear. PatO

:) I agree with you - my family has been breeding Connemaras in Ireland since 1961.

Our area is a very good one for RID/ISH - the quality of mares at even our local show has always been great. I love the RID and ISH though with my short size (4'10) I find the Connemaras a much better choice for me. I would love in the future to add a RID or ISH breeding program to our own Connemara breeding and hope to do so someday. :yes: And here in the states in IL where our farm is I am very happy to find RIDs and ISH coming into the area.

[Orkney96]

Orkney96,
I have a Gloster baby too! He's out of an amazing Flagmount King mare. My little guy (@10mo now 15hh :eek:) A++ on temperament and conformation. I've been wondering if TPOG throws size though since my guy is so big. Maybe you could give me some insight on that?

I received his USEF lifetime registration certificate in the mail today and wanted to hit my head against the wall when I read "Flagmount's Travelmark" as the name. WTH is a travelmark?!?!
TBlitz,
My colts mom (by TPOG) is around 16.1H and she is lighter than what we would consider "traditional" frame - not by much but just a little, but she is gorgous and very typie and a lapdog personality. My mare that is due in June to TPOG is Dutch-KWPN, Ramiro Z grandaughter, Nimmerdor g-gd and she can jump the moon! she is also 17.2H and is the spitting image of her grandsire - I bred her to TPOG because I dont want 17.2H anymore! so i am hoping he can tone down her size a bit but with those bloodlines from her side and Clover Hill from TPOG - the foal should be nicely athletic! As for size for other TPOG offspring the ones i have seen seem to be 16.1-16.2 for the most part.
My colt being a TPOG grandson doesnt show any signs of being less than 16.2H given he is now almost 14.1 at 8mo and by the old farmer string test - he measures out to 17H!

AND YES ID PEOPLE LIKE A CHEERING SECTION! Even if you do not have one to show, come and cheer us on at the FEH!
Orkney96

[AdAblurr02]

Kate,
<SNIP>
Can I ask how tall TD is now? is he still growing? Merlin is 14H at 8 months and where as his mom is by The Pride of GLoster and is only 16.1, i will be interested to see how big he gets?
Thanks for welcoming me in and hope you are up for answering all my questions that I have now and down the road!
Orkney96

MFTD (Manu Forti's Touch Down RID) is called Ollie at home and by his ardent fan club :) He's been our baby since Simone deigned to part with him at the age of barely five months. He arrived in our front yard as a fuzzy little muttly boy,all legs and head, and was about 14 hands at 6 months. He won't be a full four years until May 13, and he's now near 17 hands, 1600 pounds, with a ten inch cannon and a size five shoe in the front. Ollie is very reminiscent of many of his dam's relatives - she is a Gortboy daughter from a Ben Purple mare, and a very traditional family.

Oh, and yes, he's still growing - over the past couple of months he went from the 16:2-1/2 of his inspection to 17 at the withers - and his croup has shot up another couple of inches. At this rate I need a stepladder....

[Janet]

Horsetails,
ID people always appreciate a cheering section. :)

Janet,
I should have said ID's and IDx's (sheepish grin).
Whats being offered in VA? I'm open to it. I'd love to see Chief in person.
So far, there is Difficult Run in August.
I expect there will be more.

[Waterwitch]

He won't be a full four years until May 13, and he's now 17 hands, 1600 pounds, with a ten inch cannon and a size five shoe in the front. Ollie is very reminiscent of many of his dam's relatives - she is a Gortboy daughter from a Ben Purple mare, and a very traditional family.

:eek::eek: Wow. He's going to be a big 'un.

I had the good fortune of meeting Ollie's second dam in Wales a couple of years ago...she is a gorgeous little traditional mare...15.3 on her tippy toes (if that). I LOVE that mare. Just my type :yes: Sadly she is in her twenties and her breeding years are over. She's bound to be one of the last living Ben Purple daughters.

[horsetales]

Sass,
Other under used with outcross blood (RID): Abbeyleix Brian Boru, Celtic Moon, Dandelion Diamond Rebel, Happy Ending, Huntingfeild Proud Tim, Moorepark Image, Rhyds Sea Quest/Sir Rivie, Snowford O'Donnell, Tors Gentleman Farmer, Western Sun

I have a sport horse foal due in May by Dandelion Diamond Rebel. I'm very anxious to see what it produces. He was recently sold and now lives not too far from me, so if they continue to stand him, I may go back.

[Waterwitch]

I have a sport horse foal due in May by Dandelion Diamond Rebel. I'm very anxious to see what it produces. He was recently sold and now lives not too far from me, so if they continue to stand him, I may go back.

I have seen some super partbreds by him...great Irish arses on those babies!!

[Sassenach]

Other under used with outcross blood (RID): Abbeyleix Brian Boru, Celtic Moon, Dandelion Diamond Rebel, Happy Ending, Huntingfeild Proud Tim, Moorepark Image, Rhyds Sea Quest/Sir Rivie, Snowford O'Donnell, Tors Gentleman Farmer, Western Sun

A friend of ours had an ISH colt by Sir Rivie back in Ireland - absolutely knocked my socks off - I loved him and they said that they are going to run him on :yes:

[J. Bewley]

I am thinking of getting our 3/4 ID 1/4TB out there. I've never shown before, so looking at maybe watching a couple and then try one or two shows. I can't get him to even out for long. The rear keeps going up, so hopefully this summer maybe we can get a few weeks of him looking "put together" He is by Flag of Diamonds (RID) out of Diamond Wasque (IDSH). At the least I hope to be cheering on the Irish at some of the shows :D

LOL...I can relate to the parts not looking put together. Our Bridon Glenmore IDSH filly, out of a grade 1 event mare, is at the same place. We hope to get her out to some FEH events.

We're lucky in the MD/PA/VA area to have a number of FEH available to go to. Last year we had a great time showing a 3 yr old RIDSH (Warrior Queen by Tors Gentleman Farmer) in the FEH to include the championship and rec'd some very good, but not always consistent, feedback from the judges. We had originally thought about getting her out in the 4yr old YEH this year but we're behind schedule due to various reasons and we won't push her. But I do wish some of last years judges could see her now. Gone is the 'baby fat' we were critized for - hey she IS 1/2 ID - and to watch her gallop with her buddies across the field I don't think she'll have any problem 'making time'.

To get your guy ready for showing you might want to consider going to the clinic w/ Christine Smith on 05 Apr 2008 that I just posted about on the IDHS list. The farm hosting the clinic isn't that far from you.

Regards,
Pat
Catoctin Sporthorses
www.catoctinsporthorses.com

[Waterwitch]

3 yr old RIDSH (Warrior Queen by Tors Gentleman Farmer)

I have been secretly salivating over this filly. She is super.

[lucky dog farm]

Oh Great! All this talk of breeding and babies really makes me want to breed my Silver Granite daughter again. I already have two of her sons but I have always wanted a filly. Does anyone have any suggestions as to who to breed her to? She has had foals by Mountain Pearl. Corrcullen, Ambers Lust (TB) and her last was by Macha Breeze. The last two are the two that I have. She is not a small girl at 17 hands but is very light on her feet and boy can she jump. Both of her sons also carry this and I would love to have another baby that keeps jumping out of my pastures.Thank you any suggestions

[AdAblurr02]

Oh Great! All this talk of breeding and babies really makes me want to breed my Silver Granite daughter again.<SNIP>Thank you any suggestions


What is her damline? I LOVE the Silver Granite mares I've seen :)

Kate

[AdAblurr02]

:eek::eek: Wow. He's going to be a big 'un.

I had the good fortune of meeting Ollie's second dam in Wales a couple of years ago...she is a gorgeous little traditional mare...15.3 on her tippy toes (if that). I LOVE that mare. Just my type :yes: Sadly she is in her twenties and her breeding years are over. She's bound to be one of the last living Ben Purple daughters.


Yep he is big.... and he looks/measures bigger than he is, as he has a tremendous uphill front end on him - that arched column of neck seems to rise out of his back like a centaur.

I just came across a picture of Ollie's granddam that Simone had sent to me some time back - she is totally perfect. The pic has Ollie's dam as a foal at foot - you can really see how the type carries down in this strong female family.

I don't think I have ever seen a Gortboy mare I didn't like - they just have that something that really turns my head. There is a definite nick between the Gortboy mares and TOTB, too. Many nice horses from those two families.

Of course, they are quite traditional Irish Draught in type - if you want the so-called modern variety with lighter bone and less body, one must look to other breeding!

Cheers,

Kate

[J. Bewley]

I have been secretly salivating over this filly. She is super.

Thank you! She may very well be 'a keeper'. But that said I'm saving my dollars in the hopes of purchasing a traditional RID (purebred) mare. The more I get involved with the IDSH and ID, the more concerned I am that the breed is losing or at least diluting the traditional qualities.

Pat
Catoctin Sporthorses
www.catoctinsporthorses.com

[lucky dog farm]

Adablurr02,
Her dam is Tifcrom Star by Annaghdown Star out of
Loc Gowna bred by James Hoare of Dowdstown Stud Ireland.

[gillenwaterfarm]

Lucky Dog,
If you are interested in re-breeding your mare to Mac, we are offering a 50% discount off the stud fee for RID mares in 2008. (The website says the offer ends Feb. 1, but we have extended it to April 1.)

[AdAblurr02]

Adablurr02,
Her dam is Tifcrom Star by Annaghdown Star out of
Loc Gowna bred by James Hoare of Dowdstown Stud Ireland.


Oooo.... Aaahhhh! Very nice! Ollie would love to "meet" that girl! :)

Late

[Orkney96]

I was thinking of trying something new this year.....would like to breed a nice Irish sporthorse for myself and although I know quite a bit about warmbloods I know nothing of the Irish horses. What do you look for in a TB mare to cross on these stallions? Who are the big name, successful horses in the US? Where are the big breeding farms located? Successful producers? Any information would be helpful or direct me to a website! Thank you!
just to reinforce the awesomeness of the ISH! you can find the full articles on the Irish Horse Board website:

Flexible (ISH) wins Thermal Grand Prix
[ Monday, 4th February 2008 ]
Flexible (ISH) wins Thermal Grand Prix
Irish Sport Horse Flexible and Rich Fellers (USA) won the $50,000 FEI World Cup Grand Prix in Thermal, California, on Saturday. Across the other side of America another of Cruising's progeny, Credit Cruise (ISH) and Andrew Bourns (Irl) placed twelfth in the WEF Oen Challenge at Wellington.

Wellington, Fl (USA) CSI**
WEF OPEN Challenge Series 1m45 Table A:
12th Credit Cruise (ISH) - 1999 grey gelding by Cruising (ISH) out of Bracklin Country Girl (ISH), out of Penistone (TB). Bred by Charles Pidgeon, Bracklin, Kilbeggan, Co. Westmeath. Rider: Andrew Bourns (Irl)

Thermal, Ca (USA) CSI W
Grand Prix FEI World Cup 1m50 Table A:
1st Flexible (ISH) - 1996 chestnut stallion by Cruising (ISH) out of Flex (ISH), by Safari (TB). Bred by Catherine Doyle, 5 Cill Corban, Corbans Lane, Naas, Co. Kildare. Rider: Rich Fellers (USA)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[lucky dog farm]

Thank you Megan. I have one of Mac's babies that I just adore. Adblurr02- How cute is your boy?! I love touch of blues.

[AdAblurr02]

Thank you Megan. I have one of Mac's babies that I just adore. Adblurr02- How cute is your boy?! I love touch of blues.

Thank you! He's a great kisser too :) big fuzzy grey kisses and only a little bit drooly. If our lousy soaking wet weather will just subside, I really want to ride this boy - he was backed last fall, has under thirty days on him, but the trainer said he was perfect in company in the indoor and out on trails, creeks, hills, down timber etc - a real Irish horse. Can't hardly WAIT!

KAte

[HntJmpLv]

I know this relpy is a little late. I was in your shoes after purchasing my TB mare in November of 06. Once I decided on breeding to a RID, I did TONS of research. My first step was becoming a member of the North American Irish Draught Society. Tons of great information about the breed there and in the magazines they send out. Online they have lists of RIDs and IDSHs.

Research the bloodlines and who are the greats in the RID history. I decided to breed my mare to Steeped in Luck, and am expecting my foal in a few months. He is well bred, and has the performance lines and the abilities I would like in my prospect. He is a beautiful animal. His owners were SUPER easy to work with. I went with frozen semen and had her AIEd. My vet had her in foal with one dose. From my experience: high fertility!

Look up up the registery online and there is a stud named Touch of Blues, if you google him you can find his website, his owners have a link up with the history of many of the great studs! My first year and a half of learning about the Irish Draughts has gotten me hooked on wanting to continue breeding that route. Also makes me want a purebred!!:winkgrin:

[gillenwaterfarm]

Lisa,
It was great to meet you and your colt this weekend. He sure looks just like his dad!

For those who want to know, my colt scored a 77.5, and Lisa's scored a 77. We placed 1st and 2nd respectively in our class for yearlings. (FEH series at the Ark Spring HT in Monroe NC)

I heard a bunch of positive comments about Irish horses from the spectators, and everyone seemed to be having a great time.

[AdAblurr02]

Lisa,
It was great to meet you and your colt this weekend. He sure looks just like his dad!

For those who want to know, my colt scored a 77.5, and Lisa's scored a 77. We placed 1st and 2nd respectively in our class for yearlings. (FEH series at the Ark Spring HT in Monroe NC)

I heard a bunch of positive comments about Irish horses from the spectators, and everyone seemed to be having a great time.

Thanks for the report, Megan - and congrats! to both you and Lisa for doing so well with your Irish boys! Ollie says GO! IRISH! to his kid brother, too :)
Kate

[Waterwitch]

Congratulations Megan!

[okggo]

Lisa,
It was great to meet you and your colt this weekend. He sure looks just like his dad!

For those who want to know, my colt scored a 77.5, and Lisa's scored a 77. We placed 1st and 2nd respectively in our class for yearlings. (FEH series at the Ark Spring HT in Monroe NC)

I heard a bunch of positive comments about Irish horses from the spectators, and everyone seemed to be having a great time.


Megan, I'd love to see some pictures if you have any??

[gillenwaterfarm]

Thanks.

This was Paddy's first time away from the farm, and his first long trailer ride. He handled himself very well, and I couldn't be more proud of his Irish sensibility. He saw a bunch of new things, but handled it all like a seasoned show horse.

He was a bit of a loud mouth on show day, the only indication of nerves from him. He called to whomever was listening about every 30 seconds for a full hour. But he stayed composed throughout, even giving me quite an extension at the trot on the triangle. The score and the placing was literally the icing and sprinkles on the cake. :)

I hope to have some photos up on his page of my website soon. Does anyone have a premium account with COTH that would be willing to post them here?

[awm]

Congrats Megan!

I'm breeding my purebred mare to Macha Breeze, she has Flagmount King
and Pride of Shaunlara top & bottem so Mac is a pretty good out-cross,
and I love his looks & apparent attitude!

Looking forward to a successful relationship this Spring!

Ann in western New York

[Orkney96]

Congrats Megan! Your boy looked great too, he is very big! and we had a blast! So YAY! to the Irish for taking 1st and 2nd Everyone who has seen "Magic Touch" says that he looks just like his dad, Touch of the Blues. Simone has said that he looks more like him than any colt she has seen - it helps that he is black and has almost the exact same markings! He was great outside the ring but for his first time in the ring he was great too, he kept licking the judges - he is such a suck up already! We are breeding one of our mares to TOTB this year and two of them too The Pride of Gloster - Since Magic is a g-son of his and i cant get enough of the temperment.
Lisa

[gortmore]

Have to add to the recent successes of Irish Draught Sport Horses or ISH. I just received an e-mail telling me that Clover All Over won a 7/8 Yr old Young Jumper class in Ocala, out of 18, was 5th out of 55 in another class and was 2nd in his last 7/8 Yr old Young Jumper class out of 18.

This horse was bred in NA so it just goes to show that we can produce horses in NA that can hold there own against the imported horses. Go Irish horses go.

[Waterwitch]

Congratulations Adele!!!

[Irish Momma]

Congrats!

Great to hear of the NA Irish youngstock doing well on the big tracks.
I hope we continue to see a lot more of them being shown at this level, I think its a real double edged sword,IMO Irish horses because they are so ammy friendly, often dont stay in the big classes with the pros for long but get sold down to the ammy clients who show at the lower levels and so the breed loses the high profile visibility within the sport.

My Coolcorron Cool Diamond daughter is rising 5, was started last fall and is in training with a grand prix jumper rider- we hope to campaign her, starting this summer, she is showing enormous talent and loves the job and is so easy about everything , typical irish mind. I already had an approach to sell, but am resisting (dont tell my DH!)
Now if I could just win the lottery..... Id love to be able to have her compete with a professional and make her Daddy proud.

[Westglen Farm]

Do you have problems keeping your Coolcorran Cool Diamond filly in? Mine is coming two and jumps were she wants to go. I am excited for her future but would love if she would wait to practice until she is being ridden:)

[Sassenach]

Do you have problems keeping your Coolcorran Cool Diamond filly in? Mine is coming two and jumps were she wants to go. I am excited for her future but would love if she would wait to practice until she is being ridden:)

You have no idea how happy it makes me to hear about Coolcorron Cool Diamond offspring here in NA.:)

My Grandpa helped start him undersaddle and groomed him for the man wh owned him prior to Robert Splaine. He absolutely adored him and said that he had the best temperament of any stallion he'd ever worked with in his life.

[Irish Momma]

Hi Nikko - Bling ( Bobbus /CCD's 5 yr old ) only jumped out once in a rain shower - as a 2 year old she jumped out of the paddock and INTO the barn over the 1/2 door ( I didnt sleep for days after that - imagining what could have happened!)
She was completely unmarked and was standing waiting by the feed room. Greedy monkey.
She has this wonderful trait which Bobbu also has - which is to stand facing what shes interested in and if you come up behind her - she just curls her neck right around owl like and stares at you as if to say "Whats up!!" My pilates instructor would be impressed!! She makes me laugh, she is such a ham.

Sassenach - is your grandpa still around- I can send you some pictures for him if you like? Bobbu certainly makes a favourable impression on everyone that meets him.

[Sassenach]

Hi Nikko - Bling ( Bobbus /CCD's 5 yr old ) only jumped out once in a rain shower - as a 2 year old she jumped out of the paddock and INTO the barn over the 1/2 door ( I didnt sleep for days after that - imagining what could have happened!)
She was completely unmarked and was standing waiting by the feed room. Greedy monkey.
She has this wonderful trait which Bobbu also has - which is to stand facing what shes interested in and if you come up behind her - she just curls her neck right around owl like and stares at you as if to say "Whats up!!" My pilates instructor would be impressed!! She makes me laugh, she is such a ham.

Sassenach - is your grandpa still around- I can send you some pictures for him if you like? Bobbu certainly makes a favourable impression on everyone that meets him.

No, my Grandpa passed away a year ago :( He was a Connemara pony man but he LOVED a good RID/ISH :yes: He got to see the good ones.

I would love to see pictures of your Bobbu if you could PM them to me please?

[witherbee]

Don't discount the full RIDs either - I just love mine! He's by Rockrimmon Silver Diamond out of Pearl Drop (Castana).
http://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/wtryan/Jeffrey/?action=view&current=100_3157.jpg
http://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/wtryan/Jeffrey/?action=view&current=100_3159.jpg
http://s74.photobucket.com/albums/i245/wtryan/Jeffrey/?action=view&current=100_3198.jpg

[Waterwitch]

out of Pearl Drop (Castana).


I love this mare :) I remember being sent pics of Jeffrey when he was a yearling - smooching everyone at Equine Affair I think it was? Adorable.

[Irish Momma]

Witherbee - Hes Beautiful :)

[Orkney96]

Hey,
I have been keeping up with post but havent been on since noting that my colt by Touch of Blues had done well at his first FEH! But since then I wanted to let everyone know that we will be welcoming his grandfather The Pride of Gloster, who is the only full (stallion) RID son of Clover Hill in NA to our farm!

I am so excited and hopefully everyone will get to see him out and competing again this year - our many thanks to Pat and Karen for letting us purchase their dear boy and we promise to make him very happy!

Lisa

[AdAblurr02]

Congratulations, Lisa! hope you can post pis of your new guy in his new place soon?

BTW, clicked on the website link on your profile info and it's not working - hope you get it resolved soon. Web updates are such a job!

Kate

[TBlitz]

Awesome! He's my baby's daddy! :D

Where you planning on competing him? Maybe I'll be able to see him go sometime!

[Altamont Sport Horses]

I have a 2007 Macha Breeze filly who is fabulous. She is out of a refined Anglo-Trakehner mare. My filly, Serendipity, has very good bone but isn't heavy. She also has a fabulous topline, neckset, straight legs, awesome feet and good strong hindquarters. You can see photos of her on my website if you are interested in seeing what he produced. Sorry they were taken during the winter so she's fuzzy and a little dirty. http://www.altamontsporthorses.com/id84.html At 9 months of age she is a little over 14 hh. Very good, solid temperment. The vet was out yesterday to pull the Coggins and as he was filling out the paperwork he said "two years old, right?" Uh, nope...9 months.

It gets better because she has got to be one of the best eventing prospects I've got. She is fast, loves to run (beats every one of her pasture mates when they race) and has endurance for days. Of course she likes to jump the logs in the woods too. Just a very athletic filly. Oh gosh, I forgot to mention how great her movement is. It is hard to tell in the photos on her page but she's got great reach, impulsion, suspension. She's a fancy mover, you'd never think she is a draft cross.

I showed my Trakehner colt in the FEH Yearling class not too long ago. He did well and one of Macha Breeze's colts placed first. Also, I noticed there were at least 3 other horses by Macha Breeze competing under saddle at the horse trials that weekend. Very cool.

Expecting another foal by Macha Breeze at the end of May. Can't wait. :) Thanks to Kegan Sport Horses for offering this very nice stallion. He's so sweet and kind...makes a very loving baby too. I think it's been a few pages since Macha Breeze was mentioned so his webpage is http://www.kegansporthorses.com/Stallion.html

[Go_Irish]

I have 2 youngsters by Sea Quest. Both are out of thoroughbred mares. One is going to be 3 this spring and is a Roan/grey filly the other is a chesnut colt. Both babies are going to be very tall but I love the bigger horses so thats fine. The filly is 16.3 rising 3yrs old the colt is rising 2 and is at 16.1

They both have drop dead gorgeous movement and are very athletic but have the stable mental makeup that the Irish draughts are so famous for.
The hardest thing is to decide which one to keep and which one to sell.....
Am new here but will post pictures once i sort out how if anyone is interested

[Waterwitch]

Love Sea Quest. He stood locally in the Midwest for several years. I just heard that he's moved to ERC in Virginia. Would love to see pics of your kids, Go_Irish :)

[Go_Irish]

I'm totally new to this board, as soon as i figure out how to post them I'd love to show you !

[goodpony]

sorry, bit confused here, but if I take my Connemara Mare to an ISH would the foal be eligible for registration ISH, provided she was approved into the stud book. Also we are Connemara breeders, and my husband has been translating at the Hanoverian Inspections for the last couple of years....he's one of those Connemara people who goes to Hanoverian inspections :winkgrin:

[Ravencrest_Camp]

Love Sea Quest. He stood locally in the Midwest for several years. I just heard that he's moved to ERC in Virginia. Would love to see pics of your kids, Go_Irish :)

I saw him last year in Ontario. (unless there is another Sea Quest)

I really wanted to breed a TB mare to him. Unfortunately, other circumstances got in the way. I thought he was a good match, and the nicest Irish Draught stallion I have seen.

[Waterwitch]

sorry, bit confused here, but if I take my Connemara Mare to an ISH would the foal be eligible for registration ISH, provided she was approved into the stud book. Also we are Connemara breeders, and my husband has been translating at the Hanoverian Inspections for the last couple of years....he's one of those Connemara people who goes to Hanoverian inspections :winkgrin:

Actually, the progeny of any mare bred to any stallion approved with IDHSNA is eligible for registration with IDHSNA. Your mare does not have to be approved for her progeny by an approved stallion to be registered (or for her progeny to be eligible for breeding approval - I don't agree with the latter policy, but it is beyond the scope of the registry to handle inspecting other breeds at this time).

The only place it gets tricky is that for studbook eligibility, the progeny have to be at least 1/4 RID through an approved parent. This means that if you are breeding to produce future breeding stock, you should use an approved stallion that is at least 1/2 RID so that the progeny will be 1/4 and thus studbook eligible. If you are breeding performance progeny it doesn't matter. Down to 1/8 RID can be registered. Clear as mud?

[Waterwitch]

I saw him last year in Ontario. (unless there is another Sea Quest)

I really wanted to breed a TB mare to him. Unfortunately, other circumstances got in the way. I thought he was a good match, and the nicest Irish Draught stallion I have seen.

Yes, that was him! We have some super nice sporthorses by him out of TB mares locally. They are just starting their competitive careers in eventing.

[Ravencrest_Camp]

Yes, that was him! We have some super nice sporthorses by him out of TB mares locally. They are just starting their competitive careers in eventing.

I do not know what ERC is, do you have a website for them? Will Sea Quest be standing to outside mares?

I would have bred to him last year for an event horse, had I not had to repair my well, septic system and hot water heater not all in the span of 2 weeks. :lol:

[Waterwitch]

There is a very spare (as in one page!) website that has contact info for ERC (Equine Reproductive Concepts - a repro facility). He is actually owned by Bill and Felicity Ferrell in Maine:

http://www.irishequinesinternational.com

Keep us posted if you decide to breed to him :yes:

[Sassenach]

Sea Quest is full brother to Grade A Showjumper in Ireland Sir Rivie if I remember correctly. I REALLY like him :yes::yes::yes: friend of ours had a smashing colt by him (Sir Rivie) a few years ago - I would have taken him home with me in a heartbeat!

[seejp083]

When I was briefly considering doing a breeding lease with my friend's tb mare, I came across this guy and absolutely LOVE him! Kilpeck Diamond Knight RID (http://www.diamondcrestfarm.com/kilpeckdiamondknight.htm). He's located in PA.

[Waterwitch]

Fargo spent some time in the Midwest as well. I saw some very nice partbreds by him in Minnesota. Some of them may be under saddle by now. These two stallions (Sea Quest and KDK) seem to get a similar type of foal out of the TB mare - tall scopey build with powerful hind ends.

[TallyhoFarms]

Saw this thred and thought it might be the place to ask. I am quite interested in breeding my TB mare to an IDSH/ISH stallion (breeding for an upper level eventer). Does TOTB have any 1/2 TB offspring standing at stud? TOTB is a gorgeous boy, certainly what I am looking for but ideally I'd like something with more blood so I was thinking he might have a TBx son?
Other stallion recommedations also appreciated, though I am looking for something with some TB blood, (just personal preference).
TIA!

[Waterwitch]

I am quite interested in breeding my TB mare to an IDSH/ISH stallion (breeding for an upper level eventer).


For an upper level eventer, without knowing anything about your mare, I would look hard at Brandenburg's Windstar (http://www.teamwindchase.com/Breeding.htm) (aka Bounce). He is 1/2 TB, by the Irish TB I'm a Star who sired several CCI**** eventers, out of a very well bred Irish Draught mare with lines to King of Diamonds and Sea Crest.

Bounce himself has produced a CCI**** eventer in Arthur (by Bounce out of a TB mare) ridden by Alison Springer. They were on the training list for the 2008 Olympics and finished 13th at Rolex CCI**** last year. There are several other of his progeny well on their way to the advanced level. Bounce is producing straight dressage horses too (also out of TB mares). So I would say, of the ISH sires in NA, Bounce would be a proven choice who has offspring currently succeeding at the upper levels of the sport specifically bred out of American TB mares.

Another horse I would look at, though his progeny are seen more in the jumper ring than in the eventers, is Clover Cliste (http://www.tophorsesales.com/Stallions/clovercliste.htm).

[Weatherford]

I love my ISHs - I have :eek: 10 at this moment!

However, there are some things people should know about the breed. First, the RID registry/organization is having problems - I haven't followed it at all, except for the occasional article in the Irish Field. Just a heads up for you!

The second is something called "shivers (http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=10070)" - a neurological problem. I have/had three big ISH's 3/4trs TB (all the exact same breeding) and they have all had this problem one degree or another. The youngest developed it the worst - and had to be put to sleep. Turns out the spine in his neck never grew enough to allow the spinal cord to work properly (the radiologist-vet at UCD said she had never seen anything like it before!) (He was the sweetest, kindest, loveliest horse I've ever had. :cry: ) The middle-aged one has developed it recently, and it is being controlled through fitness and diet. It does make him unsaleable - although, I will admit, I never sell my horses. The last, my broodmare, the oldest, has also shown slight signs of it, and I probably shouldn't breed her.

My thoughts on this are two fold: First, these three (all the same breeding) were out of a draught mare that was unpapered - a lovely, classic, gray ID mare. I think now, in retrospect, that she may have been by the same stallion as the one to whom she was bred. It would make sense from an Irish standpoint, as people in the past would breed to the "local" stallion - and he was the most famous of the locals. I have read the shivers is often found in draughts/drafts (all breeds of them), so IMHO, this inbreeding could easily have caused the problem.

The other part of it is it could have come from a lack of copper in the soil - something that has been linked to neurological disorders, and is also a common problem in Ireland.

And, while I don't care about papers, I think tracking the bloodlines to prevent inbreeding, etc, is critical. Of course, in this day and age of being able to scour the world for you bloodlines, the problem is less an issue than when you only bred to the local stallion! However, it remains something to consider.

Irish horses are wonderful!! Be aware that they temperament, while generally consistent, can vary! Cruisings (for example) are considered "tough" to handle and break - but they are brilliant! Cruising crossed with Clover Hills seems to have the best of both worlds!

Needless to say, despite the problems above, I love my Irish horses. And I love having them here in Ireland where I do not have to worry about frozen water buckets, ten feet of snow, deathly cold weather, etc etc... ;)

[Waterwitch]

However, there are some things people should know about the breed. First, the RID registry/organization is having problems - I haven't followed it at all, except for the occasional article in the Irish Field. Just a heads up for you!

Yes, we have been following that here as well...sigh. Until things get worked out in Ireland we won't have a worldwide studbook, and until we have a worldwide studbook, things like inbreeding to popular sires and other conservation issues are that much harder to manage.

Re: temperament, I believe the BouncexTB mare progeny are good eggs but are of the slightly more reactive type (maybe it comes down to Sea Crest again?), although this is probably part of what makes them good competition horses.

Sorry to hear about your shivers horses...I haven't personally seen that in an ID here yet but I'm sure it exists, shivers being more common in big horses in general.

[Go_Irish]

HI there Liz and anyone else that wants to see a couple of nice Sea Quest Youngsters
I do hope this works
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=84752&l=65ffa&id=757428145
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=73437&l=505a1&id=757428145

[crosscreeksh]

Tallyhofarms - we have a coming three year old son of Touch of the Blues out of a Seattle Slew granddaughter. He is true black (may be homozygous for the black - TOTB's IS) We plan to breed him to a couple of mares this year even though he can't be inspected until the fall of this year. You can see baby pictures of him on our web site: www.crosscreeksporthorses.com He is VERY nice and we are totally pleased with him as a stallion prospect. Great disposition, movement and conformation...and will be a big boy!! The best combinations for sport horse breeding in my opinion.

[Waterwitch]

HI there Liz and anyone else that wants to see a couple of nice Sea Quest Youngsters


Lovely youngsters :yes: I can see why you are having a hard time deciding which one to sell. Sea Quest really stamps his babies. Keep us posted as you get them started under saddle!

[hendyboy]

Greetings from the Emerald Isle. Im really surprised by the interest in ISH's and ID's. I guess it depends on what you want to breed....if you want a general riding horse then go for it. If you want to breed an international showjumper then Id run a mile from them if I was you.

[Sassenach]

Greetings from the Emerald Isle. Im really surprised by the interest in ISH's and ID's. I guess it depends on what you want to breed....if you want a general riding horse then go for it. If you want to breed an international showjumper then Id run a mile from them if I was you.

And if you want to breed an eventer there's no better cross.

[columbus]

If there are 30 RID stallions in a registry and there are 3 (I believe there are more)who were Grade A jumpers in their own right and say 10(Again I believe there are more) had sired at least one Grade A jumper. That's a very high percentage of success. Then a few who had offspring who had evented to say a two* and that is not including at all the Irish Draught Sport Horses who are half Irish Draught or more. Then we find out that the Irish Draught are quite good dressage horses and train easily up the levels and out of less than 20 stallions in the US two were training at FEI level or had shown at FEI level. Turns out it is the IRISH people who don't do dressage but their horses DO. Ultimately if you researched the stallions who were NOT Grade A or upper level eventer or not doing FEI level dressage you would find that most had never had training to try...they had not failed...their owners never tried...lets not blame the breed. Then if your Irish Draught ALSO trail rides on the buckle, is sensible enough to be a school master for a lower level rider, can go on their first field hunt and show their rider a good time, then also works on half passes/haunches in/changes, jumps on Saturday mornings, putzes with the owner on Sunday, and everyone has a good time...that's what WE want from our Irish Draughts. If the Irish haven't tried to use their breed to their talents...that's silly. PatO

[hendyboy]

And if you want to breed an eventer there's no better cross.

This is true...we still lead the books on eventing...however the rest of the world is slowly catching up with us since the Cavalier Royale blood ran out..who wasn't even Irish in the first place. The Irish mare herd is dire at the moment...this and the importation of second rate European stallions has left the ISH industry on its knees.

[hendyboy]

If the Irish haven't tried to use their breed to their talents...that's silly. PatO

I agree entirely. However, our breed is gone. Back when everyone everywhere rode Irish horses there was an abundance of excellent Irish Drafts to cross with thoroughbred blood. These drafts worked in the field, pulled the carriage to town and hunted. They had the excellent temparament and the famous fifth leg. To a large degree the current Irish Draft herd is inferior to that of the past. Poor management on the part of the authorities here saw the best of our broodmares sold abroad. I cant think of any thoroughbreds in this country breeding jump. Many are succellfully lightening strong mares but that is about all they are doing. Given that the current mare here is poor at best this is a recipe for disaster. We have to a large degree squandered our resources. Technically speaking we should be able to produce a super showjumper by crossing the best Irish blood (providing bravery, fifth leg and rideability) with the foreign bred (providing scope and movement)....however this is only achieveable if we use quality Irish mares and the best of foreign bred stallions. The Irish Sport Horse of today is largely sired by second rate European stallions who were not good enough to stand in their own country! We are still competitive at eventing, however we have slipped down the showjumping rankings. There was a time when you would go the the Aga Khan and every team would be riding Irish horses, now even the Irish team are on foreign breds. As for dressage it is totally overlooked here, simply because people are backward and slow to change. You would be shocked if you knew how little information is available to Irish breeders. Im glad to hear the breed is being managed more successfully in the USA. We could do with such professionals over here.

[Waterwitch]

Im glad to hear the breed is being managed more successfully in the USA.

Don't count on it.

[stolensilver]

I've heard mutterings about the state of the broodmare band in Ireland. What a terrible pity that they seem to have lost so much of what made Irish horses famous: their sense, soundness and fifth leg. I don't think this is a reflection on the Irish Draught though. It is down to the neglect of the Irish Draught and, as hendyboy says, crossing good ID mares with substandard warmbloods.

Surely a way forwards is to open the stud book again, as has happened many times in the past? Allow mares with no papers to be assessed for type and if they are good enough put them in the AID book. Then if they have an outstanding filly by an RID stallion the filly (but not a colt) can be entered into the RID book. I also think mares and stallions with a significant % of TB blood should be allowed to be RID as long as they pass on type. This again is something that always used to happen, just look at many of the famous names from the past like Pride of Shaulara who was 25% TB and every inch an Irish Draught. http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/pride+of+shaunlara Or Clover Hill who was 50% TB. http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/clover+hill or King of Diamonds who was 25% TB. http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/king+of+diamonds3

IMHO closing the studbook on a breed with such limited genetics as the ID was as big a mistake as losing the mare base. It would be such a tragedy if this wonderful breed and these tried and tested lines were lost. I also think that closing the studbook is a big part of the reason why there are few ID sports horses at the top of the showjumping ranks these days. It usually takes more than one cross of TB blood from good jumping lines to produce a top jumper. In the golden years the top RID stallions already carried plenty of TB blood without compromising on type or bone and so the first cross to the TB mare was the finished article. These days an RID cannot carry TB blood up close and so the first cross is not producing the top jumping horses as it used to. The old formula worked for generations. Why was it changed?