New carriage question

[vtdobes]

Hello,
I am looking to buy a new carriage to train and show with this summer. I had wanted to buy a new Running Brook Road Cart but am thinking of getting their Training cart instead as it will save me close to $500. I plan to do "small" shows like local open/breed shows (pleasure driving classes) this year and maybe a driving show at GMHA in VT the next year or depending on how we advance.
Here is the link to the training cart, I do plan on ordering the optional seat back :), do you guys think this will be acceptable for what I plan to do?

http://www.runningbrookfarm.com/html/products/rbf_trainingcart.html

Thanks!
Cat

[pricestory]

It should be fine. Ususally show carts don't have the iron fenders, those seem to be more in Marathon vehicles. Think about getting in once you add the back. If you are young and agile, you should be fine. I certainly don't want to be climbing over the back with a green horse.

[Drive NJ]

We have almost that exact cart
My first cart was similar and bought at Martin Auction
Since it could not be kept completely indoors - and it was older - eventually we had to many repairs to make it worth it and bought the roadcart from Carriage Machine Shop in PA (where they are all built) Had that cart for close to 20 years when it was destroyed ina barn fire
We looked around at other options but settled back on the same cart again
It is well balanced, easy to move around, comfortable to drive in, goes just about anywhere
It is not suitable for CDE anymore - hazards are just too tight to make it competitive, but it is a great all around cart to drive in the pleasure ring and XC.

The options we got this time were flush hubs and a split seat so you can walk thru rather than crawling over the seat. (It came with a few more options I did not order, but oh well - se we have a dash and a box under the seat)

I would not buy the seat box because you can strap on a basket or other spares box - to the floor under the drivers seat

I really like the walk thru split seat - just generally more comfy, except when you drive alone and tend to drift your seat toward center - then you encounter the hinges
Our seat is hinged in the middle which makes it capable of opening full width
Seats hinged on the outside tend to not open as wide because they interfere with the wheel or fender

The handrails are quite visible but they have not seemed to detract from the overall look and dont score down particularly in a class (unless of course its your roadcart against all sorts of fancy-schmancy carts)

Rick and Kathleen are very knowledgeable and will not steer you wrong, so you can trust in their advice

Good choice - have fun with it

[vtdobes]

Thank you both for the info. I can't tell by the photo but do you think with the training cart you need to step over the seat instead of next to it like the road cart?

[War Admiral]

Not familiar with that particular training cart, but here are a couple thoughts from hard-won experience:

1. Be sure to check the shaft length. A lot of makers' training vehicles are designed so that the horse can be placed a lonnnnng ways ahead of the cart when hitched the first few times (so it won't kick the cart to pieces); then you move the horse back to its proper position after a few drives. Mine is designed like that - and once the horse is moved back into correct driving position to get the vehicle in draft, the shafts are WAY too long. I looked into getting them shortened but the guy I took it to opined that it would end up being out of balance, so I left it as is. It's in draft, so it's fine for just driving on roads at a walk/trot, but would not be suitable for tight circle work.

2. Is the seat adjustable? I'm suspecting not. If it's not, and the shafts are "training length", you may end up having this same problem.

You can gussie these carts up a bit by adding a dash and small lamps for shows, which I've done to mine on occasion.

Definitely get flush hubs!!! :yes:

[Thomas_1]

how do you get in and out? Do you have to step over the shafts?

[Drive NJ]

Thomas

You climb in over the seat from the back. This used to be a typical Amish roadcart back in the 70-80s. The ones called roadcarts either have you climb in alongside the seat from the rear or over some amount of the shafts from the front. I'm not fond of either though a lot of people think they are easier to get in/out of and don't feel as "trapped"

vtdobes

Might want to talk to Rick about catching a ride in each of the vehicles to see how they ride for you. NJ2 answered before and I agree with most of what she said, but we have the marathon cart shown on his site not the training cart and I personally prefer the square front and the adjustable seat which I don't think is on that training cart. I also wouldn't bother with the spares box under the seat, but you might want to consider the seat backs if you plan on long drives.

[Thomas_1]

Thomas

You climb in over the seat from the back. This used to be a typical Amish roadcart back in the 70-80s. The ones called roadcarts either have you climb in alongside the seat from the rear or over some amount of the shafts from the front. I'm not fond of either though a lot of people think they are easier to get in/out of and don't feel as "trapped" Thanks for the explanation. I've heard folks talking about "rear entry carts" and basically was just thinking "why?" I don't think I've seen either over here. I'm much more familiar with the shafts running level and under the base of the vehicle (like the Running Brook Spinner on that site) or else fixed to the front of the dash board. (like the Eaglet)

Seems it would be a little tricky (intrinsic risk) for getting in and out.

Its always wise to see if you can try a vehicle before you buy. I've taken a lot of phone calls over the decades from folks wanting to sell or modify something they've bought and then found to be very uncomfortable or impractical for their needs.

[War Admiral]

Thomas, if you take a look at my profile pic you will see a pretty typical rear entry training vehicle with a bench seat. I added the dash for that one show & then took it off again... ;)

The prior owners added an extra step on the back (the SMV sign is resting on it) b/c the vehicle is quite tall. You step on that and then onto the floor of the vehicle - which extends out a good bit behind the vehicle - designed this way so that a trainer introducing a green horse to hitching can actually stand on THAT to drive and thus can bail out in a hurry if necessary. From the floor of the vehicle, you park your behind on the bench seat and swing your legs over.

In an emergency it's quite possible to bail out by stepping on a shaft and jumping wide of the wheels - but luckily I haven't had to try that (touches wood)!

[Thomas_1]

Isn't there a back-rest on the seat?

I do a lot of driving over the top of the vehicle either from the ground or from the back step - you'll probably have seen that from photos I've posted of training horses. Though I've never personally felt the need to have to climb up from there to the seat without making the horse halt and stand though. And to date I've never felt the urge to stand on shafts and launch off the vehicle clear of the wheels! Maybe I've been missing something or just lack a spirit of adventure! ;)

[War Admiral]

Nope, no back rest. I do have the hardware to put one on - one of my trainers thought I should, the other said "it's up to you". I don't know why, but I *feel* a little safer without one, maybe less claustrophobic or something, so I've never put one on...

Of *course* we make horsie halt and stand before we swing in!! ;)

My trainer had me practice the "emergency dismount" over the wheel a couple of times but I, too, have never felt the need to try it since! :cool:

Edit: Funny story re getting into vehicle from behind. My arthritis is getting so bad that a week or so ago I actually got STUCK halfway up, sprawled across the bench seat! I really hate that, b/c as you might imagine, having human weight hanging off the back of the cart when there is no driver REALLY throws the balance out of whack for the horse. HRH Avery was a saint about it though. I did get a quizzical "what on earth is going ON back there??" kind of look but he waited patiently for me to scramble aboard...

[goodhors]

The no-seatback feature is very common on homemade vehicles, less expensive carts, and of course the little metal pony carts. Some folks order it on their vehicle just because they like it or are used to seats like that.

I always looked at no seatback as just being a BASIC vehicle, part of the cheap price. Like plastic seats used to be basic in ordering a new car, fabric was more expensive. Looking at backless seats now, many good reasons to have them. I see benefits to having horse STAND WELL, no matter if shafts are suddenly light or heavy, with weight on foot basket or steps. Adding the different feel of belly straps pulling up, sudden saddle weight, is very good for training a young animal, keeping the older one tuned up. We have headers for the new horses in training, but an older one should be reliable in standing. Practice never hurts. Standing still, continues as you move around getting situated in the seat, adjust your reins, get the whip, pick up the passenger. All very good for the horse, waiting PATIENTLY for the "Walk On" directions. You don't want the auto-start to get learned.

Our tall roadcart is usually entered from the rear. I don't like being on one leg, poised over the wheel as I lift leg over the high shaft. You count on horse being reliable with training, but you don't put yourself in bad positions either. It was easier to enter with smaller wheels we first had with small horse. Those 54" wheels are just a bit too big to be comfortable. For me, the back step is the easy way to enter.

Long legs help, since I just swing a leg all the way over seat to front floor of basket. My feet are solidly placed, before putting weight on them, finish stepping into front. I don't sit and turn, probably because we have folding seatbacks down on the bench, not comfortable! Seatbacks are laid down to enter, step over bench seat.

We have walked behind the cart, driving. Never stood on the rear and drove over the seat. Our cart gets very light in the shafts, pulls on the belly too hard. Balance point is not good for back step weight. No grooms standing back there either.

I have to say that no seatbacks would be extremely tiring on long drives. Even short times, I lose my good posture with fatigue. Somehow it just is not like riding!! My back is fine for hours in the saddle. Our seat cushion is very thick, top comes even with the hinge of seatbacks. Folded, they lay nicely on the cushion. Folded, the seatbacks are lower than the wheels, to reduce height for trailers or riding in the back of the truck.

We do have a second seat, which we use. We just unscrew the whole bench, lift it off, put the other seat on. It has a fixed steel rail around the whole bench, 10-12" high, little back rest for driver, like a coach does. Copied from a coach seat rail. The cushion has a wedge on one side, with a flat cushion on the other side. This seat works well for little kids, can't slide off sideways or seated groom/passenger. Gives driver height with our tall horses. We first used it with the little horse Tandem, so you could see the Leader. You must enter over the shaft with this seat.

We did add a footrail to the foot basket, during one of the many basket changes. Basket is deep, to be positioned below the axle, not hit axle while driving on rough ground when springs compress and release. Footrail gives driver and passenger an aid for stability. Carts can be quite bouncy on rough ground, so you need your feet secure on the floor or rail to stay seated firmly. No 3rd hand for Driver to hold on with! I can hook a toe under rail, put the other foot on rail, for bracing legs. Kids usually just hooked their toes, held the siderail, since they didn't weigh enough to stay seated well.

If I was ordering a cart, I would ask for folding seatbacks, so upholstery would match seat cushion. Easy to climb over. I might get the hinged seat too, as DNJ suggested. Better for wearing skirts when competing/showing, just easier to use than straight bench. I always showed in slacks under apron, with our Roadcart. Don't want to give a FREESHOW, swinging leg over seat in skirts!! Trust me, you DO NOT get any bonus points from the Judges!

We also have a strap on box when showing the Roadcart. Just find a nice basket or wood box you can paint black. Two leather straps buckled around box or basket and floorboards, make a nice looking spares container. Secure on cart, ready to go.

[War Admiral]

Yep, excellent points all, GH!

Only reason I swing both legs over at once is that I'm 30% range of motion disabled laterally in my right hip so I literally cannot straddle the bench - never could. And yes I definitely showed in slacks! :D

Oddly enough, when I bought my cart, I thought the training platform at the back was the coolest feature and that I would use it a lot. I've never used it at all... :lol:

The picnic basket you can see on mine is our spares kit. I like it b/c it holds a LOT of stuff (HRH Avery's "raincoat", my raincoat, Animalintex, Vetwrap, etc.), not just the ADS recommended spares! It's secured with 2 stirrup leathers.

If I were going to make any further mods to this cart (which I'm not, at this late date, with HRH only driving 10 minutes per week :cool:), I would definitely put in a foot rail. Unlike Goodhors I have very *short* legs for my height and could for sure use the extra security. I'll add it to my next one no doubt!