Driving wreck and runaways

[Thomas_1]

We've had quite a few postings on driving wrecks and with folks asking why a driving accident so often ends up more serious than a riding accident.

I thought these short videos pretty well demonstrate what can go wrong and how a simple error of judgement or mishap can end up pretty badly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV32IErUTs0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hu_jItOC3Es

[Thomas_1]

I saw that one. From what I could see it seemed like that was a harnessing problem.

[Happy Feet]

I have to say the harnessing malfunction is my biggest fear. I was once taking Magic out on the road, he picked up a canter for a couple of strides and when I was pulling him back to a trot a piece of the breeching snapped making the cart go up about 2 inches, scared him, he lurched forward and we barely made it around a sharp curve in the road upright. It scared the living bejeavies outta me! I really look at the harness all the time, and the leather was in good condition, as was the stitching still it happened and I am really glad to have a 4 wheel carriage to go out it in now - I feel h much safer.

Those videos bring home the idea that a mistake can have big consequences, Be careful, safe and prepared for what you are about to undertake.

[War Admiral]

...So I guess we're not posting the one where the Lipizzaner drowns in the water hazard? (You can find links to it from the ones Thomas posted, if so inclined - but WARNING it is disturbing to watch. :no:)

[Thomas_1]

I've seen that one though I won't post that one as it is indeed very tragic.

Its similar to what happened at Lowther Horse Trials when one of the wheelers in a pony team went down though in that incident the driver had the foresight to drive the whole team on and which literally dragged the one under water out. It survived the incident though was injured and it never went into harness again.

That was in the late 70's early 80's though when the sport didn't attract so much attention or have people filming etc.

[goeslikestink]

i thought that it was a harness problem with gothedistance video as you can clearly see it comming detatched

inkow this isnt driving but watched the 1st video of the your tube carriage accident
which i presume might have been over truend more so as the grooms where on the same side of the turn and hadnt counter balanced the turn going on the oppersite side so carriage tipped over- might be wrong but thats what it looked like

the video just after that shows a horse keep falling down it was loose-- most besar i wonder what was wrong with it--looked drugged to me - i know its not driving but the your tube thing went striaght onto it

[Thomas_1]

inkow this isnt driving but watched the 1st video of the your tube carriage accident
which i presume might have been over truend more so as the grooms where on the same side of the turn and hadnt counter balanced the turn going on the oppersite side so carriage tipped over- might be wrong but thats what it looked like The groom on the back stap should actually be out on the same side as the turn and NOT the opposite side. IMO though the groom wasn't really being observant and not "working" the carriage. Watch even before the accident: the carriage is bouncing all over and yet he's standing upright. He should have got his centre of gravity lower and his weight out over the wheels. The driver got the turn wrong and too tight: he was "fighting" with the horses well before the obstacle. And I thought the wheel hit something and bounced up and because the groom wasn't well back out and over the inside he was unable to give any help by keeping the inside wheel on the ground and so the carriage bounced up and flipped over.

the video just after that shows a horse keep falling down it was loose-- most besar i wonder what was wrong with it--looked drugged to me - i know its not driving but the your tube thing went striaght onto it When the pair took off I think they actually jumped something at the back of the course - possibly a small fence or trees? Watch it carefully and you'll see they both slow down slightly and then take a small jump at the same time and then come to a sudden and crashing halt as one falls. I thought therefore they'd jumped and then the carriage stopped them and that's what brought the horse down and in that horse dropping the other came to a very sudden halt. I think at the end that they might have actually been caught up in fencing as the guy mounted the back step and got hold of the reins.

The only tip out I've ever had (touch wood) was when a pair of young horses took off and jumped a tree trunk (that's where I got thrown out!) and then a 4 foot high hedge with a wood fence through it. In that case the carriage crashed through the fence and hedge and the horses took off!

[Renae]

I think this race accident shows well how when shit happens if you keep a cool head and don't abandon your poor horse things can be scary but a lot less scarier than could have been http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pl3qLgnNDI I think dring horses feel especially vulnerable and lost when they lose their driver, even more so then when a riding horse loses its rider. half the time when you fall off a horse you land on the ground and the horse stops and looks and you like, "Why are you on the ground?" But your driving horse doens't know where you went.

[War Admiral]

My take on the driven pair is the same as Thomas'. Looks to me like the inside wheel hit the inside post, causing the flip. And yes, they definitely jumped something - my assumption is that they jumped, the carriage got stuck, and that's what stopped them. Major props to the guy who caught them and stuck with it and the other guy who jumped into the vehicle!

[LostFarmer]

Anyone who has never had a wreck is either a lier or hasn't driven much. LF

[MySparrow]

Wow.

I loved the guys who managed to stop the pair, stroking them to calm them, and the brave one who climbed into the carriage and grabbed the reins. Wish I knew the rest of the story on the series of calamities that began with the runaway single horse and cart. How did the pair come apart from the four-in-hand?

[Ashemont]

Anyone who has never had a wreck is either a lier or hasn't driven much. LF

Gee.... guess I'm a liar then LF ;) I might not have been driving much - 2 years - in comparison to many of you, but being retired and having the time to drive just about daily (for a bit I was driving 2 or 3 a day) - knock on wood and TTL - I haven't had a wreck. I chalk it up to many, many, many years of experience with horses and being able to 'read' ours quite well. Plus the fact that if I'm not sure I'm doubly cautious :yes:

Please don't wish a wreck on me - I've had more than my fair share ridden so would prefer to avoid that experience driven!

[RidesAHaflinger]

How about we subsitute the word 'incident' for wreck? :winkgrin: I've been driving for 6 years and have not had what I would call a wreck but I've surely had my share of 'incidents'. With my own horses, I've been tossed out of the cart. had two bolts, 'bolts' being defined by Thomas' criteria of being *more* than a simple 'spook 'n scoot.' :lol::eek:, and numerous 'spook 'n scoots', too... And I've been along for the ride on training drives with other horses who bucked, reared, kicked the dash and/or tore their harness to shreds. I've had the dubious distinction of being the groom who got put down to calm a kicking stallion, unhook the trace that he'd gotten his leg over while kicking, re-hook the trace, make an emergency repair to the kickstrap that had been tested beyond its limits, get back on the backstep and accompany the driver back home to be taken to the ER to have his bleeding shin tended to where shod foot met human leg as the horse kicked up over the dash. In that case I had forgotten to wear my gloves and it wasn't until we got back to the barn that I saw the stripes on my palms from gripping the back of the seat while the horse was performing airs above ground. :eek: And later I received a compliment from the driver/trainer that I still wear with pride when he said "You're just not a screamer, are you?" No, I'm not. I try to keep my cool and assess and deal with the things that are happening in an attempt to minimize damage and improve the outcome.

It's always hard to think this way at the time such things are occuring but in retrospect I feel like every incident I've dealt with has contributed to making me a better, stronger and more capable driver. If things always go smoothly and predictably, where do you get the experience of having your limits tested so that you know how you'll react in a crisis? I've fortunately not had what I'd call a full-blown wreck but I've visited the steps along the way to a wreck on several occasions and had the opportunity to hone my skills at wreck-aversion. It's all been along the lines of what my mother used to call "character-building." I guess none of us really wants those experiences but I do think you become stronger and better-prepared after you have a few of them under your belt. I'm as safety-conscious and cautious as anyone but I do know that sooner or later "stuff happens." How you deal with it can make a difference in many cases.

[War Admiral]

RAH raises some interesting points which I have occasionally pondered myself in the dark of night..

First off, how do we define "wreck"? An incident where any one or more of horse, human, harness or vehicle is damaged? Or must the vehicle actually overturn, as in the vids Thomas posted?

If the former, then yeah, I've had MINOR wrecks - some of which only stayed minor b/c the horse I was driving was the cool-headed, wise and sensible HRH Avery, whose reaction to every problem is to stop the vehicle, whoa-stand, turn his head toward me and say "Well, we seem to be in a spot of bother at the moment. How would you suggest we get out? I await your direction." :D :yes:. He's a TB in a million and yes I know that!

But the other key point of RAH's really IS the one that keeps me up at night. When your horse is THIS good, how do you advance your experience in dealing with wrecks? :confused: Sooner or later I know I'm going to have one - probably not with HRH at this late date (unless as fallout from his occasional pirouette) but with some other horse, surely. So I don't think it's necessarily the number of YEARS one has been driving that equips one to cope - it's more the nature of the horse(s) you've got...

[LostFarmer]

Experience isn't the number of years it is the number of situations that you are putting you and your horses in. Are you pushing the envelope? Or are you content to just drive. Nothing wrong with either but when you are pushing the limits stuff can and does happen.

[War Admiral]

See, I think THIS is the key to why I am able to "get away with" my Driving TB:

My saving grace is I always, and only, ever drove animals that I personally schooled to driving from the ground up, and with which both had developed a mutual level of trust. And I don't like to take chances with my vehicles.

Three full years of ground driving 3-4 times a week before the horse was ever hitched might strike a lot of people as preposterous in the extreme... but that's what I did... Avery wasn't even remotely trail broke, so I worked very, very hard on despooking this horse. The day I was able to ground drive him on unfamiliar show grounds in a literal hurricane, with gale-force winds, icy rain, plastic flags blowing, jump standards and jumps blowing down all over the place, trash blowing everywhere (scary plastic shavings bags and the like), and went through deep mud puddles that literally had whitecaps on them, and he kept on truckin' (albeit a bit grimly! :D), I figured he was ready to hitch. ;)

I look back at all the things he could/"should" have spooked about and didn't (e.g., the "traffic jam with 27 motorcycles and a tractor" incident which some may recall, or the time Yours Idiotically got the vehicle stuck in kudzu :rolleyes:), I do start thinking that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

LF - basically we took our lives in our hands every time we went out at my old boarding barn. It had been quiet and rural but 2 new subdivisions went in and it just got insane. The motorcycles, bike racers in training, traffic jams on football game days, kids throwing soccer balls out their car windows at him, you name it, we probably saw it in our last 2 years there.

I even had occasion to be glad I had schooled Avery to ground drive through FIRE when one day we rounded a corner to find a neighbor burning leaves on the side of the road with loads of smoke blowing at us - and the track we needed to take went around the blaze within 3 feet! :lol: You want to talk about de-spook training you never really think you will actually NEED in real life--!!! :lol:

[goodhors]

I like the word "incident" which as GTD and RAH say, can give levels of bad.

I guess wreck for me, is horse down, carriage broken. Now this can be bad, but not always the worst. Two incidents of horse down, we drove away from. It was bad while we were in the middle of the situation, but no horses hurt beyond being on the ground.

One was unhitched and unharnessed, stood up. We turned cart back up, reharnessed because stuff had all slipped sideways, rehitched and kept going. A total saint of a horse, with me just thinking, "How stupid of ME, to ask horse to turn that way and then I run over the stump to flip cart!!" Horse was a freeze-in-place type. Always locked EVERYTHING up when scared or didn't understand a situation. You then helped her thru it. Never ran about anything. I bought mare for my mother to ride, knew her dam and sire, loved the minds. Trained her to drive just because I thought she would not be spooky in harness. However her western riding training had some reining work, so she tended to do a half pivot on the hind for short corners, instead of always trotting forward and around the turn. This is why I hit the stump, she shortened the distance, but still my fault. Wheel went up on stump and with speed, we flipped. Horse stayed frozen sitting, when I yelled "Whoa". We stood up and took care of things, went on to finish the drive, had a fun drive covered in mud. Actually no one believed we had flipped until later when the officals came in from the course, had seen the flip-over. Only later in the day did I ever think of "what if....??" as I explained the bent seatbacks to husband at home.

We did lots of things with the horses then. We just "EXPECTED" them to obey, work with us, go on after a happening, ridden or driven. Stuff happens, you didn't just stop for the day. Good grief, "Cowboy Up", get on with the days program!! If you panic, have to recover from stuff, we then would never have gotten anything done.

I look back now, think how ignorance is bliss, and Angels do protect the unknowing from themselves!! Back to picking good horses for the jobs, they did take good care of us. I have had some really great ones who didn't allow me to kill both of us!

Looking at the video wrecks is pretty awful, glad I wasn't around. All praises to the horse stoppers for being in the right place.

As RAH says, you learn with each happening, get more knowledge. That helps you prevent things from getting to the bad level. You avoid situations that put you in danger. I may not scream, but husband says the whimpering can be distracting!!

[RidesAHaflinger]

I may not scream, but husband says the whimpering can be distracting!!

:lol: :winkgrin: :yes:

I usually get a very good case of the quivering 'what-ifs' a few hours post-incident. I've always thought this might be an important evolutionary step: those who panicked when the sabre-toothed tiger ran towards them became lunch. Those who kept calm, plotted an escape route and THEN freaked out later would live to fight another day. :D

[okggo]

Scary videos, I didn't see the link to the Lippizans (probably best!!)

I am very much a newby "driver" and had only been in the cart solo a handful of times and have to say I was VERY uneasy about it (being used to riding) at times. We have to go up a road (that people fly down) to get to a field to school, and my first jaunt out solo a firetruck was coming the other direction (and this is a narrow road). My saving grace was that my husband was riding his horse ahead of me and was primed and ready to be at my horses head if need be. His horse walked by and as we went by the truck they released the air brakes just as we started passing. My horse jumped just a fraction of an inch and then kept going, but I was scared to death. People DO NOT know how to behave around horses, and my biggest fear with driving is some FOOL flying by at 60 in a 20 mph zone and clip the cart. Not to mention some horses spook TOWARDS traffic :( Scary.

Anyway, you all are obviously acutely aware of all of this, but as a newby to driving with 20 years horse experience, it can be (to me) more frightening then galloping a cross country course. But maybe I've turned chicken as I've aged...

[MSP]

Ive decided to categorize driving pairs right up their with eventing; leave it for the crazy people!

The video with the single horse and equipment failure doesn't bother me as much. Although if it was me I would have preferred a horse that didn't panic as much. Although I was happy to see he didn't kick the tar out of the driver.

Racing video; you have got to love the Standardbred! That is one of my favorite things about them. Very sane horses!

I have had several incidents, (equipment failures and entanglement in nature) but I think because of my horse they didn't end up as wrecks. Only one I would call a wreck was when my wheel came off while in a full gallop. I hit a pot hole or tree stump and got air bound and when I hit the ground the wheel popped off (jog cart). My Standardbred gelding just slowed to a stop and we had a very long walk back home; probably 45 minutes.

An example of what could have been a wreck but because of my horse was nothing was the time I was pulled over by a cop while driving. The rookie officer put his sirens and lights on and came flying up beside me while I was trotting down the shoulder of a road. My horse never even flinched. We engaged in a very long discussion and lets just say I educated him on approaching horses. Long story but he pulled me over because he felt I should not be driving down that road and he wanted me to pull into a strangers barn and stay off the road. I finished my all day drive the way I wanted to and reported the officer to the Chief of police when I got home!

[goodhors]

His horse walked by and as we went by the truck they released the air brakes just as we started passing. My horse jumped just a fraction of an inch and then kept going, but I was scared to death.

Anyway, you all are obviously acutely aware of all of this, but as a newby to driving with 20 years horse experience, it can be (to me) more frightening then galloping a cross country course. But maybe I've turned chicken as I've aged...

I just thought I should mention this about air brakes. The truck driver, nor anyone in truck, had control of the air release. Truck builds up air pressure, which is released at the pre-set measurement on the truck's valve. So air is released whenever the truck has too much pressure. NO CONTROL on release.

As a large truck, driver, we DO NOT release air to spite folks!! Certainly NOT EVER around horses! My own mother complained to me about "rude truck drivers who blow the air" when she was beside them at lights, stops. I had to explain the no-control, air release thing to her.

You might see if anyone you know with a big truck, could come park in your yard for a little while. You take advantage of that by having horse stand by truck, sniff it, hear truck while air releases a few times, blow the big horns. A huge training opportunity for you. Horse could be on a lead, in paddock beside truck, where he won't have cart or blinkers to worry about.

If you are near a road with such trucks, it is better to work out problems under controlled setting, than be surprised again on the road. We had one who was afraid of UPS trucks so she stayed on the roadside paddock a long time. Neighbor gets tons of UPS stuff, so horse saw truck stop and back in almost daily. Heard the sounds, got immune to them. Truck never did anything to her, so quit worrying.

We all get a little more fearful as we age. All those life experiences, observations of others, have taught us we are breakable. Not immortal, like previously believed! Plus it is easier to be calm in settings we are familar with, like galloping, instead of sitting like a target in new-to-us carriage driving. As RAH said, we LEARN so we can modify behaviour, run and come back another day.

You might approach the Road Commission about signs to warn auto and truck drivers, of possible carriages using the road. People don't expect to see them on most roads, often can't identify them by silouette driving at speed. Some signs warning of horse crossings, carriages on the road, BEFORE each end of road area you use, could be helpful to auto drivers approaching. Everyone is going so fast, takes longer times to slow and react to things in the roads.

YOU need to have visible things so carriage is noticed. Bike flags move, can catch the eye of car driver quickly. Triangles, reflective tape, roadworker vests. Green color seems most noticable, red/orange doesn't give good perspective of distances to approaching cars. Take precautions to protect yourself, use your lane of road. You are a legal vehicle, entitled to use the road. If you get over by ditch or ride the edge, they try to zoom around you fast. They can shove you over into ditch by cutting in too quickly, may clip the horse! If they have to get into other lane to pass, they usually pass by slower, wider, but you be prepared for cutting back in anyway. Try to make eye contact, wave and smile, ALWAYS. Turn yourself into real people, not just obstructions. They only know TV horses, scared of nothing.

[Thomas_1]

First off, how do we define "wreck"? An incident where any one or more of horse, human, harness or vehicle is damaged? Or must the vehicle actually overturn, as in the vids Thomas posted?
For my definitions:

I've actually always described them previously as Accidents (serious or minor) or Incidents. It was just coming to this board that had me seeing them described as "wreck" and it seems somewhat a decent enough descriptor for a serious accident.

To me its when something or someone has suffered damage and specifically in relation to a carriage horse its when the driver has parted company with the equipage and the horse has tanked off in utter fright and flight mode and with total disregard for what is happening about it. It or they are not going to pay heed to people shouting and trying to stop them, they HAVE to get out of the situation.

I've had one of those in a lifetime of driving. Would have been 3 as I've had 2 serious accidents with traffic but in both cases the horses were injured and weren't going anywhere.

If the driver stays on board and everything manages to stay undamaged then its "just" a bolt.

Had probably a handful of those.

And an incident to me is when there's a single act that has or could have had an adverse effect on safety and health. So for instance when I once had an axle break and the wheel come off on a carriage but my pair just politely stopped and looked round and waited for me to unharness them, and including to lift the carriage so I could get it off.

I well remember Mysparrows account of her harness vanishing up the tree but everything being o.k. - that's an incident ;)

I've also had some memorable ones of those

Then there's what I call "near misses" which is when but for good luck there wasn't an accident, wreck or incident :winkgrin: So you might get back and discover that a bit of harness wasn't properly fastened but it didn't come apart. Often though near misses are never even recognised by those who have them and because they don't have the wit and knowledge to undertake a risk assessment in the first place and don't really know what they're doing.

But the other key point of RAH's really IS the one that keeps me up at night. When your horse is THIS good, how do you advance your experience in dealing with wrecks? :confused: Sooner or later I know I'm going to have one - probably not with HRH at this late date (unless as fallout from his occasional pirouette) but with some other horse, surely. So I don't think it's necessarily the number of YEARS one has been driving that equips one to cope - it's more the nature of the horse(s) you've got... I don't think that is true at all.

When I had my "wreck" it was the VERY day someone asked me about carriages tipping etc and I'd said "I've never had that happen and now I've finished competing and had totally sensible horses it wasn't going to be likely" :no: I think I probably also said something along the lines of the fact that some people seem to have a lot of catastrophes and others manage things better :no:

But I hit a tree trunk totally obscured in long grass and was thrown out the front of the carriage between the backsides and hind legs of the horses and the carriage front! I actually thumped into the back of one of the horses as I was thrown out! I was VERY lucky not to be run over by the vehicle as I rolled into a VERY tight ball - that was my old survival instinct from jockey steeple chasing days. Then as the carriage threw itself over the tree trunk and thumped down it scared the wits out of the horses and they shot forward and jumped a hedge and fence in perfect unison and the carriage crashed through it taking several 6 foot fence rails and a load of hedge and wire strainers with it. Nothing that happened was the fault of the nature of the horses.

In many ways it cold have been MUCH worse but I had good calm staff - including one as a passenger still on the vehicle! as it launched over the log and fence and then up the road!!! When they eventually stopped one horses had its legs over the trace, the other over the pole! and the reins were also wrapped round there! But we all got away with minor cuts and bruises and lived to tell the tale and have a drive out straight away to put it behind us.

[okggo]

Argh.
Okay, I didn't say they intentionally tried to spook my horse, did I? And I'm sure you have heard the loud air release sounds coming from the brakes of heavy trucks and busses (particularly if you drive one). This sound CAN INDEED come from the release of the
brakes. When air brakes are applied, there is some air sound, but it is
not easily heard. So if a truck is STOPPED, as this one was, and releases the brakes as it proceeds forward, it does in fact HISS.

I was talking about traffic in general, not picking on trucks, that was just an example of my very first "solo" outing EVER. Why you feel the need to be defensive about this is sure curious to me.

About the road commission, there are SIGNS all over the place, this is a huge equestrian area. And it's not a high truck area, it's a backroad that an EMERGENCY vehicle happened to be going down. The usual traffic is people flying down it as thought it were a highway.

Have you driven in Landcaster, PA? People (most) don't care about signs. I've driven through their numerous times and cringed as minivans almost take out a carriage full.

Yes, our cart is quite visible. And yes I am more than interactive with the traffic.

Not sure if your whole post was a jab at me, but it sure felt like one.

Edited to add: Maybe as others have indicated I'm being way overly sensitive. Probably. If so, sorry. I do appreciate that you care about the safety of both my horse and me.


I just thought I should mention this about air brakes. The truck driver, nor anyone in truck, had control of the air release. Truck builds up air pressure, which is released at the pre-set measurement on the truck's valve. So air is released whenever the truck has too much pressure. NO CONTROL on release.

As a large truck, driver, we DO NOT release air to spite folks!! Certainly NOT EVER around horses! My own mother complained to me about "rude truck drivers who blow the air" when she was beside them at lights, stops. I had to explain the no-control, air release thing to her.

You might see if anyone you know with a big truck, could come park in your yard for a little while. You take advantage of that by having horse stand by truck, sniff it, hear truck while air releases a few times, blow the big horns. A huge training opportunity for you. Horse could be on a lead, in paddock beside truck, where he won't have cart or blinkers to worry about.

If you are near a road with such trucks, it is better to work out problems under controlled setting, than be surprised again on the road. We had one who was afraid of UPS trucks so she stayed on the roadside paddock a long time. Neighbor gets tons of UPS stuff, so horse saw truck stop and back in almost daily. Heard the sounds, got immune to them. Truck never did anything to her, so quit worrying.

We all get a little more fearful as we age. All those life experiences, observations of others, have taught us we are breakable. Not immortal, like previously believed! Plus it is easier to be calm in settings we are familar with, like galloping, instead of sitting like a target in new-to-us carriage driving. As RAH said, we LEARN so we can modify behaviour, run and come back another day.

You might approach the Road Commission about signs to warn auto and truck drivers, of possible carriages using the road. People don't expect to see them on most roads, often can't identify them by silouette driving at speed. Some signs warning of horse crossings, carriages on the road, BEFORE each end of road area you use, could be helpful to auto drivers approaching. Everyone is going so fast, takes longer times to slow and react to things in the roads.

YOU need to have visible things so carriage is noticed. Bike flags move, can catch the eye of car driver quickly. Triangles, reflective tape, roadworker vests. Green color seems most noticable, red/orange doesn't give good perspective of distances to approaching cars. Take precautions to protect yourself, use your lane of road. You are a legal vehicle, entitled to use the road. If you get over by ditch or ride the edge, they try to zoom around you fast. They can shove you over into ditch by cutting in too quickly, may clip the horse! If they have to get into other lane to pass, they usually pass by slower, wider, but you be prepared for cutting back in anyway. Try to make eye contact, wave and smile, ALWAYS. Turn yourself into real people, not just obstructions. They only know TV horses, scared of nothing.

[Thomas_1]

What is wrong with folks!??? Does everyone come to this board with a chip on their shoulder and a bug up their backside!

Got to say that as an experienced driver and Advanced Light Harness Horse Instructor that I wouldn't take Goodhors' posting as a jab at all.

Indeed I'd say it was helpful, informative, polite, well constructed and accurate.

Heck folks pay money for instruction like that.... just be appreciative you're getting it for free!

If the cap fits then wear it. If it doesn't then just read it for what it is: an excellent posting; no more and no less!

However the "jab" I would have at you as a novice is that its really not wise to drive without a groom (assister) in the vehicle with you. Someone mounted on a separate horse is going to be neither use nor ornament if something happens. You're doing something there that I would never do and I've frequently been accused of having no fear at all.

[okggo]

I came with no chip. If you are referring to me? I just came with a comment and post and got read the riot act of semis 101.

What did I do that is so wrong, that you are referring to? My horse was trained by a pro, I took lessons from a pro and decided to take him around the field a couple of times solo. Sadly, meaning going on the road (no other option), and made sure to have help with me if need be. I'm sure I could have (and no doubt have) done far stupider things in the past, bad me.

And frankly, if something had happened I am horse smart enough to be able to react. I wouldn't just scream like a child and close my eyes. But yes it made me nervous. Good grieft batman. Sorry for violating the sanctity of the driving forum.

What is wrong with folks!??? Does everyone come to this board with a chip on their shoulder and a bug up their backside!

Got to say that as an experienced driver and Advanced Light Harness Horse Instructor that I wouldn't take Goodhors' posting as a jab at all.

Indeed I'd say it was helpful, informative, polite, well constructed and accurate.

Heck folks pay money for instruction like that.... just be appreciative you're getting it for free!

If the cap fits then wear it. If it doesn't then just read it for what it is: an excellent posting; no more and no less!

However the "jab" I would have at you as a novice is that its really not wise to drive without a groom (assister) in the vehicle with you. Someone mounted on a separate horse is going to be neither use nor ornament if something happens. You're doing something there that I would never do and I've frequently been accused of having no fear at all.

[Renae]

What is wrong with folks!??? Does everyone come to this board with a chip on their shoulder and a bug up their backside!


Sometimes I think so!

I have never had a serious wreck, knock on wood- serious wreck described as cart broken or horse or person injured.

I have flipped a cart (horse stopped and looked back at me like I was an idiot), had a bit break in half while driving (same horse as I flipped the cart with, again stopped at looked at me and would have said WTF? if he could), had to deal with a naughty little Haflinger with a tendency to bolt that a customer brought in with that problem and left me without that problem (have no idea if my advice was followed after the thing went home), did have a green Hackney Pony rub the cart against the wall in the indoor once and rip the tug off the harness (that has really a non-event other than the pain of dealing wtih a broken harness), had a nasty attitude Saddlebred gelding whose old trainer always stopped him in the same corner of the arena to unhook him and he would try to stop there when he thought he should be done jogging so I got sick of him one day and wacked him and he lept forward and into the wall a bit, catching the telephone on the wall and getting the phone cord around his legs causing him to bolt and buck and I was thrown from teh jog cart but he stayed hooked and I caught him again got back in the cart and finished jogging his lazy ass, was jogging a 3 year old Saddlebred colt outside once and he bucked because he was fresh and outside jogging is fun and got a leg over the shaft and cantered on 3 legs for a ways while I helped him get his leg back where it belongs and he was fine after, thats about the worst of it. Nothing that would ever cause me to not want to drive, and as far as seeing accidents with other people I've seen just as scary accidents with riding horses as with driving horses. I've been driving for over 10 years.

[LostFarmer]

Heck if it requires damage to the vehicle, person, or horse to be a wreck I have had one. I was damaged with a little road rash.

I define a wreck as that point when the horses and team are out of control. That you get back in control before damage occurs... it is still a wreck.

Semantics. LF

[goeslikestink]

The groom on the back stap should actually be out on the same side as the turn and NOT the opposite side. IMO though the groom wasn't really being observant and not "working" the carriage. Watch even before the accident: the carriage is bouncing all over and yet he's standing upright. He should have got his centre of gravity lower and his weight out over the wheels. The driver got the turn wrong and too tight: he was "fighting" with the horses well before the obstacle. And I thought the wheel hit something and bounced up and because the groom wasn't well back out and over the inside he was unable to give any help by keeping the inside wheel on the ground and so the carriage bounced up and flipped over.

When the pair took off I think they actually jumped something at the back of the course - possibly a small fence or trees? Watch it carefully and you'll see they both slow down slightly and then take a small jump at the same time and then come to a sudden and crashing halt as one falls. I thought therefore they'd jumped and then the carriage stopped them and that's what brought the horse down and in that horse dropping the other came to a very sudden halt. I think at the end that they might have actually been caught up in fencing as the guy mounted the back step and got hold of the reins.

The only tip out I've ever had (touch wood) was when a pair of young horses took off and jumped a tree trunk (that's where I got thrown out!) and then a 4 foot high hedge with a wood fence through it. In that case the carriage crashed through the fence and hedge and the horses took off!


i see it now you pointed it out-- and he wasnt quick enough the groom that is

[goeslikestink]

Scary videos, I didn't see the link to the Lippizans (probably best!!)

I am very much a newby "driver" and had only been in the cart solo a handful of times and have to say I was VERY uneasy about it (being used to riding) at times. We have to go up a road (that people fly down) to get to a field to school, and my first jaunt out solo a firetruck was coming the other direction (and this is a narrow road). My saving grace was that my husband was riding his horse ahead of me and was primed and ready to be at my horses head if need be. His horse walked by and as we went by the truck they released the air brakes just as we started passing. My horse jumped just a fraction of an inch and then kept going, but I was scared to death. People DO NOT know how to behave around horses, and my biggest fear with driving is some FOOL flying by at 60 in a 20 mph zone and clip the cart. Not to mention some horses spook TOWARDS traffic :( Scary.

Anyway, you all are obviously acutely aware of all of this, but as a newby to driving with 20 years horse experience, it can be (to me) more frightening then galloping a cross country course. But maybe I've turned chicken as I've aged...

another perosn should have been with you ready to jump out and hold the horses head
so to calm him and reassure him - having a ridden horse in front isnt always the safe option as he to could have run off then startled yours whatever- but if yout hubby acted as groom in carriage to jump out ready whould have been a better option
when iused to dirve al be it rusty with a little shetland then i would have young debs as get out and hold the head if need be-- if you learning then you still need a groom even when you arnt -- most have another passenger

[LostFarmer]

What is wrong with folks!??? Does everyone come to this board with a chip on their shoulder and a bug up their backside!

Pot meet kettle. :cool:

[Cartfall]

:lol: :winkgrin: :yes:

I usually get a very good case of the quivering 'what-ifs' a few hours post-incident. I've always thought this might be an important evolutionary step: those who panicked when the sabre-toothed tiger ran towards them became lunch. Those who kept calm, plotted an escape route and THEN freaked out later would live to fight another day. :D

Would the stallion you spoke of earlier be Dream? and the driver, our beloved Bob?

You are a braver person than I, lady, to get on a carriage behind Dream.


My reply to this whole thread is-- I have earned my moniker honestly!!!
Most were were "incidents" and only one wreck where the horse was never returned to harness. But everyone of those incidents have left me as a better driver. Harness failure scares me silly---you can;t prepare much for that other than to look over your harness.

okggo---
Thomas makes a valid point about having a groom in the cart with you. But I expect you are like the majority of us who do not have the luxury of someone to drive with us. You are lucky if your husband is out there with you--even on a seperate horse. I must drive alone most times. Just keep at it and as they say in distance riding--long slow miles and time will help you achieve your goal. Driving can be scary. I too must drive down a busy road to get to some trails. But now my horses are pretty road savvy, and I do use my whole lane.

[NRB]

...So I guess we're not posting the one where the Lipizzaner drowns in the water hazard? (You can find links to it from the ones Thomas posted, if so inclined - but WARNING it is disturbing to watch. :no:)

Shudders, oh man that's just the worst way to go. Somehow that makes eventing XC seem safer......odd.

[War Admiral]

Shudders, oh man that's just the worst way to go. Somehow that makes eventing XC seem safer......odd.

I know exactly what you mean! The sad thing is that it appears to me the horses in that vid were trying to do the right thing but unfortunately it backfired. :(

Oh and actually I'd like to THANK Goodhors for the air brakes 'splain. I did not know that!! Thank you!

[RidesAHaflinger]

It was not Dream although I did go out on Dream's very early training drives with Bob a few years back and we had no 'incidents.' I guess I was lucky from some of the tales I've heard. :eek:

The stallion who kicked over the dash was a Haflinger stallion. Bob took a solid whack to the shin that day, actually more than one solid whack. The horse was moving out nicely, then stopped to have a kicking tantrum during which he kicked Bob but remained inside the harness. Then he was quiet for a moment while we re-grouped and thought the storm was over. Then he abruptly launched into a second kicking frenzy, whacked Bob in the shin again, broke the kickstrap and got his left leg over the trace- miraculously he did not get the leg over the shaft or we'd have been toast. That's when I was directed to climb down and (with shaking hands) get the trace back where it belonged and fix the kickstrap. Which I did. By this time Bob (on blood thinners pending his bypass surgery) was bleeding freely from his shin. But you know Bob. We drove that horse on another 7 miles that evening (without further incident) and only then did we go back to the barn where I took care of the horse while Bob's wife took him to the ER. It was quite an evening.

In defense of the horse, I believe it turned out that he tested positive for Lyme disease and once he was treated for that, his behavior improved greatly.

Karen

Would the stallion you spoke of earlier be Dream? and the driver, our beloved Bob? You are a braver person than I, lady, to get on a carriage behind Dream.

[Mngirl]

Thanks, goodhors for the info on the air brakes. I did not know that. You also gave me another idea about desensitizing. I am alway trying to come up with differant things, and it wasn't until you mentioned about having someone you know bring thier truck over. It was a DUH moment for me! My brother-in-law drives semi! Now I will just have to sweet talk him into bringing it over.

[War Admiral]

Thanks, goodhors for the info on the air brakes. I did not know that. You also gave me another idea about desensitizing. I am alway trying to come up with differant things, and it wasn't until you mentioned about having someone you know bring thier truck over. It was a DUH moment for me! My brother-in-law drives semi! Now I will just have to sweet talk him into bringing it over.

Oh yeah, that's a good one!! :yes: I was lucky that a truck driver lived in a tenant farm on the property where I started Avery ground-driving. I set up a few "dates" with the Man and His Truck, culminating in "Meet you on the levee over the lake." I figured if HRH Avery could ground drive past that thing with 3.5 feet clearance between 18-wheeler and solid cement wall, with water rushing underneath it, we were good to go on the truck front! :lol:

[MIdeafhorserider]

Wow, I remembered when I was young lady at riding school in Detroit, the rider fell off the horse, instructors told riding students stopping the horses, the unrider horse ran around, I tried to catch the horse, I caught the rein pulling the bit of the horse mouth, brake the horse's back legs sliding. The instructors said good job.
Person tried to catch the horse or horses but sometimes they knew they could got hurting self from the horses, safe or unsafe. I understand all of us tried to stop the horses safe, but very difficult.
About several years ago, five men stopped Beligan horse with broken cart, the woman driver got very bad hurting, one radiology Doctor saw, he ran to help the woman, hold her neck, Doctor told her not to move, still hold. EMS took her flying to Ann Arbor, Michigan, it was happened at Michigan State Fair horse show, in Detroit. Radiology Doctor told me about the story.

[willowoodstables]

Eek some of those videos are terrifying. Had many an "incident" and a couple real good wrecks. The old stand by of a really sharp knife goes a long way to getting a horse out of a twisted, tightened harness. I have had to (GASP) cut the traces on a nearly new Freedman Harness when a pony flipped and got himself so tight we couldn't slack the traces to get them off the whiffletree. Zip went the knife..$800 for a new set of rolled traces later..well worth it in the end IMHO. Saved pony from certain thrashing, shafts and my piece of mind that he could get up in one piece.

"Saved" another pony "choke himself off" at speed in the show ring, dropped like he was shot dead, he went arse over teakettle and harness was a twisted mangled mess. Some parts broke (check etc) but the rest was cut off. Ok by me because he wasn't really breathing all that well. That was very scary indeed.

JMHO...sometimes Murphy's Law can happen and sometimes the best "laid" harness can go awry, hence the handy dandy Bowie Knife (just kidding). Oh and paramount, try to not slice the struggling horse..I tend to slice the poor guy holding the harness away from the horse's body.

Kim

[goodhors]

Glad you didn't mind cutting your harness to ribbons. In the accidents I have been involved in, helped at, you don't jump in and start cutting stuff. For SOME REASON, not understood by me, all the folks who arrive at an accident want to cut the harness, first off!!

Often horse is just laying still, you can work around him, get other parts loose, while maintaining control of him. In fact, the only wreck I can recall needing to cut harness, was one rein billet. A Pair, had one rein around the one horse throat, was being choked. There was enough help to hold both animals, they were not fighting, choice was made to cut AFTER they had been released from the vehicle. Downed horse was in water, rein did keep her from inhaling while under water. Holding her head out of water, the rein was cut, she got some air, was asked to stand up, and she did. No acting like a nut-case, a person was in control of her with a lead all the time.

I have seen other times, horse goes down while tied, someone runs over, cuts them loose and horse runs away at the show!! Gets hurt being an idiot between the barns running about, people chasing him! Person coming up to the downed horse doesn't get a second lead on him, just cuts up close to the halter, nothing to grab. No thinking by the person with knife. Seems to happen over and over, you just can't stop the folks with their sharp knives.

With modern competition harness and vehicles, the quick-release snaps are a great advantage. Equally nice to have are the quick-release tug loops on shafts. Doesn't matter how much pull or weight, the strap releases when pulled. Our Tedman harness also has a single strap down spine to the crupper. Can be quickly unbuckled to release the whole breeching with holdback straps still in place on shafts, on single animals.

You do want to keep a cord tassel or leather tag on the quick-release snaps of traces or singletrees. Much easier than just the small rings, to grab quickly. You have to pay attention to your quick-release snaps, keep them lubricated so they work easily when needed. Wet weather, sandy roads, sweaty horses, can gunk up the springs of such snaps. The minute snaps are a little "difficult" to work they should be immediately attended to, cleaned and lubricated, able to function smoothly if needed.

Please don't jump in immediately if you see a driver having difficulty, and start cutting harness!! You easily can make a bad situation change to TERRIBLE!

[hobbyhorse23]

my own definition of a wreck entails:
1. a broken beyond repair vehicle ....and/or ...
2. an injured horse that requires medical treatment.
3. an animal so tramatized by an "incident" that it no longer can be trusted in harness.

For my definitions:

(Wreck) To me its when something or someone has suffered damage and specifically in relation to a carriage horse its when the driver has parted company with the equipage and the horse has tanked off in utter fright and flight mode and with total disregard for what is happening about it. It or they are not going to pay heed to people shouting and trying to stop them, they HAVE to get out of the situation.

If the driver stays on board and everything manages to stay undamaged then its "just" a bolt.

And an incident to me is when there's a single act that has or could have had an adverse effect on safety and health.

Then there's what I call "near misses" which is when but for good luck there wasn't an accident, wreck or incident :winkgrin:

Under both definitions I've certainly had a wreck.:winkgrin: We were told my older Arabian gelding was "broke to drive" but being sensible people we took him to a very well-respected combined driving trainer we knew who bred Friesians. She took him through all the steps she'd use to train a green horse from harnessing to lunging with harness on to ground-driving with and without blinkers, dragging a tractor tire, walking near the cart, then driving with the cart. He was a perfect gentleman and she said it was obvious he had indeed done this before and been very well-trained at it too. She was excited about his potential for CDE as he was a lovely balanced mover with a soft mouth, short turn radius, and of course those four flashy white socks on his lovely copper coat. That was '96 or '97 and I was maybe 14? The trainer always stayed in the cart with me as a safety precaution but after she was sure it was safe I was always the one at the reins as he was my horse and the goal was to drive him in competition at least at the local shows. It went well for several months and we borrowed her cart and harness to haul out to a local arena for our first solo drive. Long story short- what the previous owner had forgotten to tell us was that he had been in a horrible driving accident and five minutes into our drive he had an apparent flashback and completely lost it. I think it was the sound of the squeaking cart springs that hadn't been audible in our trainer's soft arena footing that did it, but whatever the trigger he began to radiate fear and within heartbeats was tearing off at a full gallop towards the outgate. The wheel of the Meadowbrook caught on the gate post and the harness abruptly snapped as I was catapulted over the dash and out the right front, thankfully landing on my helmet instead of a bare head. I probably would have died if I hadn't had that helmet on. As it was I had my first mild concussion, the cart and harness both needed major repair, and the Arab took off down the trail like his tail was on fire in complete and absolute panic. This was normally a very sensible horse so I think I was more distressed about his state of mind than my own head. A couple of horse-wise hikers saw him coming down the trail and waved their arms to turn him and we caught him as he came cantering back.

Needless to say after that we were turned off of driving. Spyder spent the next two years so terrified of carts that the mere sight of one in the distance would send him into complete meltdown and I eventually had to retire him from under-saddle classes as he became completely crazy. Poor guy! As for me, I could be a passenger in a draft carriage or mini cart but anything in the light horse range sent my gut tightening up in fear at the least little sign of tension in the horse.

Then of course I fell in love with this cute little mini who had NO manners in hand but loved to drive, and what was there for it but to get over my fear and drive him? :lol: He's a good sensible fellow but his younger years were full of some real hyjinks and boy did he desensitize me. :yes: He wasn't dangerous, just easily frustrated and liked to express his feelings emphatically. ;)

In the three years I've had him we've had one major bolt that was handled with no damage, a couple of incidents including getting a leg caught between trace and shaft after a brief buck (I said "whoa" and he hobbled from a canter to an immediate and calm three-legged stop, let me fix it, then went straight back to work) and a case where stiff new breeching suddenly rode up under his tail on a steep downhill marathon run (he merely clamped his tail and flicked his ears at me for instructions, carefully obeying my requests to weave back and forth down the hill until we could get stopped), and of course quite a few "near-misses" as other people's horses had wrecks, bolts, accidents, or incidents around us! :lol:

All these experiences have indeed built my confidence as I've learned how to handle trouble in harness and I discovered last year that I'm now okay with driving light horses even if they're acting up. I got hooked on pairs driving at the National Drive and this last Friday took my first lesson with my current trainer's larger Friesian pair! :eek: :yes: I was incredibly proud that I was able to handle them calmly and firmly and even tackled my first hazards and a cones course without incident or having to retrieve my heart from my throat. I couldn't have done it without the last several years working through minor incidents and rough spots with my little partner!

Oh, and that Arab who was so scared of carts? He had a life-changing experience and by the time the mini came along he was able to watch anxiously as I drove him in the next pasture...looking more anxious for me than about the cart! He wasn't sure that little hellion was going to take proper care of me. :lol: Two years ago he went to the beach with our mini and me and a group of mini friends and walked calmly along the seaside boulevard in a halter, literally surrounded by Lilliputian easy entry carts on all sides and perfectly content. :sleepy:

I'd say while wrecks can be truly awful, safely navigating the smaller incidents can give you valuable experience and does, indeed, aid in making you a real driver if you take the right lessons away.

Anyone who has never had a wreck is either a lier or hasn't driven much.

Leia

[kearleydk]

Very well said Hobbyhorse. I agree with every bit of it.
Also agree with the good horse comments about the knife. I always have the knife but have yet to use it. Have considered it a couple of times but have always been able to ease something and get things un-buckled.

[Sithly]

Just FYI, since I'm kind of a knife nerd....

Many knife companies make "rescue" knives. They are made for cutting seatbelts and the like. They generally have serrated blades for cutting power and a blunt tip, so you don't accidentally cut the person (or horse) you're rescuing.

Spyderco makes a great inexpensive (http://spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=255) model, and they also have a top-of-the-line (http://spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=63) model.

[Thomas_1]

I've also seen a lot of situations where someone rushes in with a knife and wants to, or else starts to cut harness. Fortunately though at most of the ones I've been at there's been a lot of genuinely experienced and unflappable folks about to take charge and get the nutter with the knife out of the way ;)

I can honestly say that in all of those situations, there's been absolutely no necessity to cut harness and indeed its been a pretty daft thing to do. Its always been quicker and easier and safer just to undo the harness that needed to be got out of the way. Either with fast release or just by unbuckling it.

I'm of the belief that "cutting the struggling harness horse out with the knife" is just one of those stories that has gone round so much that some people believe it and think its the way to deal with anything and everything.

I'm most definitely in agreement with Goodhors sentiments on that subject.

[Cartfall]

Several years ago on the Cross Florida Cracker Trail Ride and Drive, I was riding and accompanying a gal who drove her mare to a spring wagon. As hers was the only vehicle among a hundred riders, it was often somewhat scary when the riders crowded in around her at stops.

We had stopped at a store who gives away free drinks to the ride. Everyone wanted to get their drink and my freind;s mare got panicky as people moved in. She went up and fell over breaking the shaft. I was off my horse in aminute trying to get the mare unhitched. There were at least 12 knives flashing ready to cut up the harness. We stopped them and got the mare undone.

Silly cowboys.

[Sithly]

I believe that every horseman should carry a knife. Some day you may need it in an emergency, and you'll be happy you made a habit of carrying it. You certainly don't have to use it unless you want to. :lol:

I had to use mine last year at my old job when someone (stupidly) tied a harnessed draft team to a high line made for saddle horses. One horse got the lead caught around his hames and panicked, entangling himself and the other horse -- and damn near bringing down the entire barn in the process. They were whirling around like dervishes. I had just enough time to step in and cut the rope. Definitely would not have had time to unharness and untangle both horses without getting trampled by 3600 lbs. of flailing horseflesh. :eek: Glad I had my knife that day! Granted I was cutting a cheap lead rope and not a nice harness.

I hope I never have to cut a horse out of a harness, but I will always carry a knife just in case. Better to have a knife and not use it than to need one and not have it.

[kearleydk]

Better than a knife is a "leatherman" tool. It has a knife in it of course but it also has pliers with a wire cutter. Not a great wire cutter but it works when the adrenaline is flowing. A couple of years ago I arrived at a show just in time to see a Haflinger with no bridle run through a wire fence. The leatherman came into play immediately to cut the fence away from the horse. In another incident the pull tab was lost from a trace safety shackle and the pliers were needed to release it. The leatherman is used every day to tighten or loosen something.

If I've got my pants on I probably have the leatherman on.

(Actually it's a Gerber)

[Sithly]

Better than a knife is a "leatherman" tool. It has a knife in it of course but it also has pliers with a wire cutter. Not a great wire cutter but it works when the adrenaline is flowing. A couple of years ago I arrived at a show just in time to see a Haflinger with no bridle run through a wire fence. The leatherman came into play immediately to cut the fence away from the horse. In another incident the pull tab was lost from a trace safety shackle and the pliers were needed to release it. The leatherman is used every day to tighten or loosen something.

If I've got my pants on I probably have the leatherman on.

(Actually it's a Gerber)

Good point. I carry a Leatherman every day. Had to cut a horse out of a fence with it once, too. The wire cutters are actually pretty decent. I think Leatherman has made some improvements to their original design; the cutters seem a lot sturdier than the old ones.

[sublimequine]

Eek some of those videos are terrifying. Had many an "incident" and a couple real good wrecks. The old stand by of a really sharp knife goes a long way to getting a horse out of a twisted, tightened harness. I have had to (GASP) cut the traces on a nearly new Freedman Harness when a pony flipped and got himself so tight we couldn't slack the traces to get them off the whiffletree. Zip went the knife..$800 for a new set of rolled traces later..well worth it in the end IMHO. Saved pony from certain thrashing, shafts and my piece of mind that he could get up in one piece.

"Saved" another pony "choke himself off" at speed in the show ring, dropped like he was shot dead, he went arse over teakettle and harness was a twisted mangled mess. Some parts broke (check etc) but the rest was cut off. Ok by me because he wasn't really breathing all that well. That was very scary indeed.

JMHO...sometimes Murphy's Law can happen and sometimes the best "laid" harness can go awry, hence the handy dandy Bowie Knife (just kidding). Oh and paramount, try to not slice the struggling horse..I tend to slice the poor guy holding the harness away from the horse's body.

Kim

This just gave me the image of a lady dressed in a fancy dress and hat and in a big white fancy one-horse cart.. with a machete tucked into her belt. :lol:

[Renae]

IMO, much handier than a knife in most harness accidents where a horse actually goes down is a towel to cover his eyes with. It is amazing how calm a horse becomes when he can not see anything.

[Thomas_1]

I believe that every horseman should carry a knife. Some day you may need it in an emergency, and you'll be happy you made a habit of carrying it. You certainly don't have to use it unless you want to. :lol:

I had to use mine last year at my old job when someone (stupidly) tied a harnessed draft team to a high line made for saddle horses. One horse got the lead caught around his hames and panicked, entangling himself and the other horse -- and damn near bringing down the entire barn in the process. They were whirling around like dervishes. I had just enough time to step in and cut the rope. Definitely would not have had time to unharness and untangle both horses without getting trampled by 3600 lbs. of flailing horseflesh. :eek: Glad I had my knife that day! Granted I was cutting a cheap lead rope and not a nice harness.

I hope I never have to cut a horse out of a harness, but I will always carry a knife just in case. Better to have a knife and not use it than to need one and not have it.

Well I do have a knife in my carriage spares kit and there's one on hand in the tack room but I'm obviously not a horseman as I've never seen it as a vital necessity to go tooled up for any and every eventuality.

And I certainly don't see it as my job to go equipped to help out duffers who don't know that you don't go tying harness horses up so they can get tangled and whilst they're still in their harness and attached to other horses too!

And if I was out with such a duffer, rather than waiting so I could use the ever-present knife (or machete and chainsaw tucked down my trouser leg! - pictures of Rambo here!), I'd like to think I'd have glanced across at them as they were dismounting and tying the horse up and suggested that they might not want to do that if they wanted to be safe.

But hey ho, clearly I lack a sense of adventure: I'm not Rambo and seemingly by this definition I'm no horseman! ;)

p.s. I also have several towels in that spares kit ;)

[Sithly]

Well I do have a knife in my carriage spares kit and there's one on hand in the tack room but I'm obviously not a horseman as I've never seen it as a vital necessity to go tooled up for any and every eventuality.

And I certainly don't see it as my job to go equipped to help out duffers who don't know that you don't go tying harness horses up so they can get tangled and whilst they're still in their harness and attached to other horses too!

And if I was out with such a duffer, rather than waiting so I could use the ever-present knife (or machete and chainsaw tucked down my trouser leg! - pictures of Rambo here!), I'd like to think I'd have glanced across at them as they were dismounting and tying the horse up and suggested that they might not want to do that if they wanted to be safe.

But hey ho, clearly I lack a sense of adventure: I'm not Rambo and seemingly by this definition I'm no horseman! ;)

p.s. I also have several towels in that spares kit ;)

Holy overreaction, Batman! :lol:

So are you saying that if you happened to walk by and see two draft horses caught in a lead rope, panicked, you'd ... just keep walking?

[Thomas_1]

No. I never said that at all. Did I?????!!!!

[Sithly]

And I certainly don't see it as my job to go equipped to help out duffers who don't know that you don't go tying harness horses up so they can get tangled and whilst they're still in their harness and attached to other horses too!

Ahh. Clearly I misunderstood. I interpreted the above to mean that you'd leave them to their own stupidity. Which is definitely an option I would have considered -- if it was the "duffer" trussed up like a turkey instead of his poor horses! Especially since he was my boss, and I hated him. :lol:

Anyway, my knife comes in handy for something every day, whether it's a dramatic rescue operation (;)) or just cutting twine. I can't imagine working around horses without one.

I'm also considering getting one of these (http://www.martialartsgear.com/ninjagear/ninjaacc/6473.htm) in case of jungle guerilla warfare. In the interest of being prepared, and all. ;)

:lol:

----

ETA: Just to clarify, I wasn't out with the duffer. I just happened to walk out of the building, saw the horses tied there, thought "Gee, that looks unsafe," and as I was walking over to move them, they freaked. I wasn't out to get my boss, or anything. LOL. Also, the horses weren't attached -- one wound the other one up in his rope.

[Thomas_1]

Ahh. Clearly I misunderstood. I interpreted the above to mean that you'd leave them to their own stupidity. Which is definitely an option I would have considered -- if it was the "duffer" trussed up like a turkey instead of his poor horses! Especially since he was my boss, and I hated him. :lol:

I think rather than misinterpretation, you got bored and stopped reading. The trick is to read to carry on and read to the end and get the whole of the content and context :winkgrin:

And if I was out with such a duffer, rather than waiting so I could use the ever-present knife (or machete and chainsaw tucked down my trouser leg! - pictures of Rambo here!), I'd like to think I'd have glanced across at them as they were dismounting and tying the horse up and suggested that they might not want to do that if they wanted to be safe.

Anyway, my knife comes in handy for something every day, whether it's a dramatic rescue operation (;)) or just cutting twine. I can't imagine working around horses without one. I can't think how I've managed for all these years ;)

[Sithly]

Originally Posted by Thomas1
And if I was out with such a duffer, rather than waiting so I could use the ever-present knife (or machete and chainsaw tucked down my trouser leg! - pictures of Rambo here!), I'd like to think I'd have glanced across at them as they were dismounting and tying the horse up and suggested that they might not want to do that if they wanted to be safe.

That's what most people would have done, if they were there when the horses were tied up. Which I wasn't. Which I already explained. But don't let that stop you!

[yellowpony]

Don't worry Sithly, everyone misinterprets T_1 and puts words in his mouth. It's an extremely strange phenomenon. :) :)

[Sithly]

Yeah, I've seen him in action before. I'm not offended because I understand where he's coming from. Plus I will be a crotchety old lady someday (god willing), and I'm sure I will absolutely relish the opportunity to put stupid young whippersnappers in their place. ;)