Are "modern horses" hothouse flowers? What to do?

[deltawave]

All of these threads about ulcers, metabolic issues, vague lamenesses, etc. have got me wondering if horses are actually more fragile in this day and age, or does it just seem that way because increased vigilance on our part is uncovering all of these ailments?

This is a rhetorical question. Were horses getting ulcers 100 years ago and we just weren't recognizing it? Or are modern horses just incapable of coping with the lifestyles they have?

Another semi-rhetorical question: is horsekeeping now REALLY better than it used to be? Or worse? (My answer is, of course, IT DEPENDS, for the record) ;)

Most importantly--are we (as an entire horsey "population") really doing anything to combat all of these "new" (or are they??) diseases by making real modifications, or are we simply looking for better remedies and SmartPaks? Is there any thinking among breeders of selecting horses based on their TOUGHNESS and resistance to "modern day" disorders?

Discuss. :)

[BuddyRoo]

We were just talking about this elsewhere as it pertains to colic.

I think in general, a lot of the the issues we see with horses can be tied back to human interference. ;)

IR? We're not working them enough and we're feeding too danged much. The breeds with high instance of IR like arabs, morgans, pasos, QH's? They were designed to live on air and get the crap ridden out of them. We do not use horses like we used to.

Colic? We tinker too damned much with feed.

Ulcers? Cribbing? Um...turnout! Turnout! Turnout! That and cutting corners on forage and tryin to increase calories with rain while cuttin back forage.

Generally speaking, the healthiest horses I know are the ones left out, on forage only diets, who get WORKED.

ETA: my "g" key is stickin. rain=Grain. Sorry.

[Serigraph]

Well, when I first got my horse he was definitely a "hot house flower". Before I got him, he lived in a stall 24/7 and was a show horse who seems to have not had much exposure outside a ring. As a result when I got him, he had bad balance, mud would horrify him and water...no way. He also had massive turnout issues which made finding a suitable boarding situation hard.

He came to me with ulcers. He was so sick and weak, I thought I would lose him. Fast forward a few years and a few different management styles, and now he is out 24/7 with access to stall. He goes on trails that are not perfectly groomed and keeps his footing pretty well. He walks in mud (water is still a problem), the flies that just about gave him a heart attack before are much more tolerated. His off and on gimpy-ness is gone. He is 100 times more healthy and sound then when I first got him.

I still pamper him to a degree, but he is showing me and telling me that he can be a real horse, unlike the hot house flower I saw a few years ago and the more natural I let him live, the more he thrives.

[spookhorse]

Oh goodness, I agree with BuddyRoo!

I think that the more we keep horses on limited turn-out with too much starch, the worse they are... Hence, mine are on 24-7 turn-out and on high forage/low starch diets ;) I won't keep horses where they can't be on tons of turn-out.

I found a decent trainer I thought of sending Buddy to for the winter but he would have only had a couple hours out a day and I said NO WAY is he going back into a stall! He has become so much more laid back and healthy since I've had him and he's gone to full turn-out after having been a stall-kept showhorse his whole life.

[JHUshoer20]

Generally speaking, the healthiest horses I know are the ones left out, on forage only diets, who get WORKED.
Amen to that,

Matter of fact it's been proven. I know most of those who populate these boards don't want to hear it but barns are for people, not horses. Living in a stall is about the most unhealthy thing you can do.

Whats more, the ulcers that the OP mentioned are caused by stress. To a social herding type animal to be confined in a box stall is every bit as psychologically damaging as a human in solitary confinement. Think about it.
George

[deltawave]

No doubt stress plays a HUGE role in all of the above. But how about the horses that DO get 24/7 turnout, a thoughtful diet, etc? Are they healthier or not healthier than horses kept in similar circumstances 20, 30, 100 years ago?

When horses worked for a living they stood in stalls a LOT. This was mitigated partly by the fact that they got their "exercise" out working. But they still stood around a lot.

Don't know where I'm going with this, just musing, I guess...maybe drawing parallels to human lifestyles where we want "instant fixes" for things instead of changing our lifestyles.

I also wonder about the genetic influence. Would YOU breed a hard keeper who was prone to ulcers and needed special "maintenance"?

[Rhyadawn]

This is a very interesting thread. I will throw in my .02

I don't think that we are doing them any favors by overdoing thier care. I have seen horses that are on 4 or 6 hours of turnout a day, heavy grain diets, limited "horse" time, and they are miserable. The worst part is, if you left them out longer or gave them a buddy they wouldn't know what to do with it.

Horses need to be horses, they need to be allowed friends, playtime, they need to be mentally stimulated and worked. They were meant to forage! However proper diet is very important as well, good health does start in the gut (I believe), a good suppliment can make the world of difference.With the lack of nutrients in the soil it can't hurt to have a little extra. My coach used to tell me that if it takes a recipee and more than 5 minutes to make your horses breakfast then you are missing the mark!

I might breed a hard keeper, it would depend on the situation. But it would certainly be to something that was much easier to keep.

[caballus]

Amen to that,

Matter of fact it's been proven. I know most of those who populate these boards don't want to hear it but barns are for people, not horses. Living in a stall is about the most unhealthy thing you can do.

Whats more, the ulcers that the OP mentioned are caused by stress. To a social herding type animal to be confined in a box stall is every bit as psychologically damaging as a human in solitary confinement. Think about it.
George ABSOLUTELY! And psychological damage causes STRESS ... stress causes all SORTS of reactions in a body. All the way down to the hooves. When I teach about the "Lifestyle of the Natural Horse" as the FIRST module in my natural hoofcare course we go over and compare the "natural" (feral/natural as 'designed') with those who are kept domestically. From body positioning (stalled horses mostly head up creating stress response in body) to lack of movement to feed & nutrition to general husbandry. Stall kept horses have stresses on their minds and bodies that are not conducive to Equine "well-being". Imagine locking up a 6 year old hyperactive boy in a 4X4' room, no windows, no social interaction except 1 hour and day and fed nothing but sugar and carbs 2 meals a day? Pretty scary thought, eh?

[ProzacPuppy]

My husband asks me the same question every time we have some health related problem with my OTTB. "How did horses survive in the wild?".

While I agree that living "like a horse" with turnout and forage etc is probably best for the horses I also feel that some of the breeds that bear the most evidence of man's hand (such as the modern American TB bred for speed at the expense of other considerations such as conformation, mental stability etc - and I don't imply that all are bred thusly but many are bred purely for a brief racing career and then they are expendable) are genetically not suitable for the "hardy outdoor" life. Modern TBs tend not to grow much coat even in the winter, many modern TBs have exceptionally thin or shelly hooves and often need extra farrier care. Some modern TBs tend to be very highly strung even when away from the track and as many TB owners know - alot of TBs have a tendency toward "paddock accidents" due to high speed hijinks.

While my TB does seem to enjoy more turnout and the companionship of other horses (which he did not get while at the track or in a show barn), he also enjoys his warm blankets on chilly nights and the comfort of his stall and fan on hot Texas summer days. We can barely keep weight on him with 3 meals a day of feed and free choice hay so I'm sure that just forage would probably not work well for him either.

On the other hand, my WB would probably do very well in 24/7 turnout and forage.

[Over the Hill]

In fact, I was just discussing this with my (non horsey) hubby.

I have had horses for 25years now. I have had Andalusians, Arabs, TWH, TBs, and assorted ponies along with a Quarter/Arab cross and a grade Paint..

I have had to put an older mare (27) down due to founder. She actually foundered twice, once at 10 years, and once at 24 years. I put one old (35) gelding down because of hock issues. I lost one Andalusian stallion to sepsis following surgery for a distended cecum. And put the older Quararab down due to a cancerous growth which could no longer be controlled. Other than that I have had maybe three colics which resolved at the barn, not requiring surgical intervention, one horse had to be nerved because of undiagnosed limb lameness, and after his complete recovery, was sold. Last year I had a horse with an elevated temperature and lethargy. Tested really high liver enzymes. Put on two weeks of four different drugs, turned the corner immediately and recovered without remark. Non-diagnosed. Follow-up bloodwork turned out normal.

I read about the issues today, such as ulcers, IR, Cushings, et al., and have to wonder why I do not seem to have any of these issues with any of my horses. When the ponies become a little rotund, I put them on a diet. I feed consistently and make sure that the feed and grain is of good quality and quantity. I adhere to a strict schedule with my horses, and do not experiment. (I think I have changes feed companies only four times in all these years.) They are stalled at night and as much turnout per day as they can get.

My horses are not in heavy training, but seem to enjoy their light training schedules and lots of turnout. None of my horses have vices. I have no stall-walkers, cribbers, weavers, wind-suckers, etc. They are happy and alert and willing to do as they are asked when they are asked. My pony rides and drives, my Andalusian is a dressage mount, the paint is a trail horse, the old OTTB is retired.

I sometimes think that when a problem presents itself, we just want to do anything to "fix" it quickly. We add this supplement or that supplement or try this or that feed, switch hays, grain/no grain and don't think of the long term consequences of doing so. Are we causing our own problems?

I remember when horse keeping was a common sense thing. I hope that no one comes into my barn to inform my horses that they are not normal because they do not have any of these problems. My vet comes twice a year. My farrier comes every five weeks. Of course I can appreciate the advances in veterinary medicine. It is absolutely wonderful that there are so many tools available for diagnosing and treatment of our horses today. I wonder about some of the lengths that we go through, though, grazing muzzles no grain and only soaked hays to remove all sugars. . . as an example, what does that do to the quality of the horses life?

[Rhyadawn]

"While I agree that living "like a horse" with turnout and forage etc is probably best for the horses I also feel that some of the breeds that bear the most evidence of man's hand (such as the modern American TB bred for speed at the expense of other considerations such as conformation, mental stability etc - and I don't imply that all are bred thusly but many are bred purely for a brief racing career and then they are expendable) are genetically not suitable for the "hardy outdoor" life. Modern TBs tend not to grow much coat even in the winter, many modern TBs have exceptionally thin or shelly hooves and often need extra farrier care."



Its true that with the horses that are the products of all this breeding that there is no way they would thrive with foraging, 24/7 turnout, and all the other "natural" things. They need the blanketting, extra feed, and all that stuff if we want them to stay healthy.

[JHUshoer20]

"While I agree that living "like a horse" with turnout and forage etc is probably best for the horses I also feel that some of the breeds that bear the most evidence of man's hand (such as the modern American TB bred for speed at the expense of other considerations such as conformation, mental stability etc - and I don't imply that all are bred thusly but many are bred purely for a brief racing career and then they are expendable) are genetically not suitable for the "hardy outdoor" life. Modern TBs tend not to grow much coat even in the winter, many modern TBs have exceptionally thin or shelly hooves and often need extra farrier care."



Its true that with the horses that are the products of all this breeding that there is no way they would thrive with foraging, 24/7 turnout, and all the other "natural" things. They need the blanketting, extra feed, and all that stuff if we want them to stay healthy.

I've not seen many horses suffer from cold. Usually is quite the contrary. Most tend to enjoy winter and playing in the crisp air. I have however seen plenty of them suffer from heat. They don't do well in heat at all. Nonetheless show people keep them blanketed at 80+ degrees don't they?

The soundness issues experienced by racehorses can be cured with turnout. This is why they usually run much better after coming back from a trip home to the farm.

For much more on that subject I highly recommend "The Backyard Racehorse" by Janet DelCastillo. Is a great book that anyone interested in horsecare should read.

Additionally, although racehorses have the reputation, I think I see much more unsoundness and health issues in show horses. Is no coincidence that they live most like hothouse plants:yes:
George

[cartera45]

I don't buy that modern TBs have bad feet or don't grow a good coat. Some grow a different coat - it is not necesarily less warm. My TB and the one we half lease are the only two horses in the boarding that have not had blankets yet - we are in Maryland. I just don't think it has been cold enough to blanket yet - unless they are clipped. They are stalled at night and they certainly don't get cold in the barn. They don't have the long shaggy coat thay my Tennessee Walker got, but they have the layers that you often see on a TB - and the layers work well if they are left alone. I also think that with proper management, there is no such thing as bad TB feet. With regard to ulcers, the top experts will tell you that there are two ways to treat - Gastrogard or several months of 24/7 turnout on grass/hay with no work. If you want to keep them work and treat ulcers, you have to use medicine. Ulcers are a management problem.

[Calena]

I think the obvious answer to the question is "It depends", "yes and no" and "can't answer that without defining the benchmark". Seriously.

Having brought horses out of their natural environments for our use and pleasure, everything changes. Here's a picture of as close to a real natural horse as we're likely to see:

http://www.iucn.org/themes/ssc/sgs/equid/pics/PM_PH.jpg

Sound, healthy, hearty and basically useless for human purposes beyond a food source (NOT!). I wonder how long those horses would last if they were required to live the high-stress life of today's high-performance competitors.

I think most of us here understand what constitutes a healthy lifestyle for our horses and do our best to provide that. I am in the unfortunate situation of needing to keep my mare in a stall. She's been stalled since she was 10. Is that the best thing for her? No. Am I guilty of abusing her? Well, she's 25 now, sound, healthy, bright-eyed and energetic. And there's a 35 year old Appaloosa down the street that's still working, sound, healthy, bright-eyed and energetic. He's been stalled his whole life.

I think much of the present concern with ulcers, metabolic issues, vague lamenesses, etc. are a direct result of greater knowledge regarding the care and complications of horse ownership coupled with a larger population of horses owned by people who are interested as much in the welfare of the horse as in the animal's intended use.

As we increase the numbers of new owners entering the horse world, we proportionately decrease the percentage of wise, knowledgeable owners/trainers/caretakers. Is the problem that serious breeders and owners aren't breeding for sound healthy horses or are demographics skewing the picture?

I guess my bottom line on this is that trying to compare totally natural to 1800's to today to US to Europe to Africa is difficult to impossible. There are too many variables. Can I have a simpler question?

[Halt At X]

I am amazed at all the posts I see of how many horses are getting ulcers and colicking.....
I only have one gelding right now but at one time I had 3 horses a OTTB mare, a QH and my AWB who I have now. All 3 horses had all day turnout and my QH was the only one stalled at night as he came from a lesson barn and was happier being in at night.
My mare had 2 or 3 extremely mild bouts of colic (nothing that needed a vet call) due to her just being a nervous nellie.
Other than her colicking (which was actually when I had to board her when I first got her) my horses never had the vet out unless it was for shots/teeth once a year. My mare lived to be 32- which is amazing for an OTTB and she was never lame or showed any signs of arthritis either :)
I am a firm believer in as much turnout as possible (ideally 24/7 w/access to shelter) and as much good quality hay and plenty of exercise and your horse will be in good shape!

[Dorienna]

I agree 100% with the general opinion above that the extreme "pampering" we put our horses through is not necessarily good, and that letting horses just be horses is usually the best method to a happy healthy horse.

BUT, how many of you think this thinking applies to high level show horses? Can we make this theory work for a horse in full time training with goals of showing at the higher levels of the sport? I am debating this as I am thinking of how exactly to raise my coming 3 yo who hopefully will turn out to be my show horse. Does anyone have examples of top Grand Prix horses in 24/7 turnout, with no boots or blankets or feed supplements or special shooes? Most will answer - well these horses cost a lot of money, need to be "protected", need to be in the best shape possible, etc... Is there a middle point somewhere, a balance between being a horse but preventing bad situations? opinions anyone:cool:

[JanWeber]

I see merit in many of the viewpoints expressed on this thread.

1. Yes, I think we "catch" subtle lamenesses and gut aches better than previous generations of horse owners - partly because many of us are so internet-educated we look symptoms up when we don't understand a horse who's NQR. We now have, more than ever, the tools to treat them and the income or insurance to make it possible. Enough of these horses would have died young in a previous generation - just like people, now they are living long enough to get more sick, more often.

2. I think also with emphasis on competition and high-priced horses comes (what are to me) questionable horse management practices. I was looking at a nice private dressage barn (I'm a realtor and was asked to prepare a marketing proposal for them) - there was little turnout. Nice lawns, orchard, etc. but very little fenced pasture with a 10 stall barn. When I asked about it, the owner was horrified - "these are NICE horses - expensive horses - WHY would we put them outside to get hurt in the pasture?" And that's why so many show hunters need, uh "prep" before a kid or an amateur can get on them.

3. There are, of course, owners who over-do it. I know someone who cuts up their horse's carrots so he doesn't run the risk of choking (no history of choke in horse or owner's previous horses). A different blanket every temperature shift of 10 degrees or more. Okay, if it makes them happy, it probably won't hurt the horse. As long as they get full turnout and a forage-based diet...

[yellowbritches]

I'm going to go a bit the other way.

When horses truly worked for their livings, they spent a good deal of time locked up in stalls, with very, very little turn out, if any. They were fed high grain diets with little grazing and often worked into the ground...literally. They were beasts of burden and treated as such ("Black Beauty" WAS based in reality). Barns and stables are not a new concept, and keeping horses stabled (often in standing stalls) was standard practice, and has been for thousands of years.

On top of that, veterinary medicine, just as human medicine, has come a long, long, long way (even in the past 10, 15, 20 years). We know more now and understand more now. We have new ways of treating problems and know how to prevent them, too, and we're finding out that a lot of behavior issues can stem from a deeper medical or soundness issue. We are learning about better ways to feed our horses, and are understanding that horses need to be horses to be happy, healthy partners. Sure, some horses may still spend the majority of their time in a stall, but we at least now have ways to try and keep them healthy and happy...might not be "perfect" but it is better.

[Katy Watts]

I agree with others that living in a stall is just not healthy for any horse. Period. I've always just had an open shed, and I've never had a colic in 21 years of horse keeping, except for a recent rescue when I wormed it for the first time in years.

Along the genetic components dealing with IR: As an aging baby boomer, I am done with challenging, hot, tall horses and purposely went to pony crosses. I now value a handy, sensible short horse and would much rather deal with stubborn or a bit of temper than a hot, spooky horse who leaps about unexpectedly. I am also feeling more comfortable being closer to the ground. I've broken more than my share of bones. I'm the only person I ride with that can get back on after opening a gate.
I think many others are in the same place. We have bad backs, so we are buying gaited horses. They have a higher incidence of IR. Icelandics, Norwegian Fjiords, Connemarras, all pony crosses, Iberian horses, mustangs, TWH, Morgans are all genetically predisposed to IR. I think they are more appealing to people like me.
I think you can feed a TB like a cow and get away with it. But not any of the breeds I mentioned.
If anyone has a short, slightly lazy, sensible, skinny TB that can eat grass 24/7 and NEEDS some sweet feed to stay in condition; THAT's the horse I'm looking for now. Got plenty grass going to waste.
Think about the origins of the TB. England, stables built by weathly aristocrates, grooms, rugs, grain, perennial ryegrass, selected for fast metabolism that could produce short bursts of speed. Now.... think about what a feral Connemara dealt with. No brainer.
Katy

[murphyluv]

Yes, I too think a lot of it has to do with human interferance. As well as the fact that horses don't work as hard as they used to. Think back to the "ye olden days" people did not strictly own horses for pleasure- if they did they were extremely wealthy- and the rest of the horses worked. And I'll argue the fact that founder and colic didn't happen- it surely did- they just had no idea what to do with it and they probably were shot when they foundered.
Now almost anyone can afford a cheap horse (or at least think they can, unfortunately), and they have no clue how to treat them.
Also, I think "show horses" have gotten to be a HUGE industry, more than it ever was, and horses are under a lot of high stress as they are shipped back and forth across the country- that probably did not happen as much many years ago.
And, a decrease in land available to horse owners means that many are in boarding situations with limited turnout. Hay is also more expensive than it used to be- and most people don't exactly find it in their backyard.
Most people also sstill have the old idea that horses need GRAIN without understanding why.

[Fiat Lux]

I agree 100% with the general opinion above that the extreme "pampering" we put our horses through is not necessarily good, and that letting horses just be horses is usually the best method to a happy healthy horse.

BUT, how many of you think this thinking applies to high level show horses? Can we make this theory work for a horse in full time training with goals of showing at the higher levels of the sport? I am debating this as I am thinking of how exactly to raise my coming 3 yo who hopefully will turn out to be my show horse. Does anyone have examples of top Grand Prix horses in 24/7 turnout, with no boots or blankets or feed supplements or special shooes? Most will answer - well these horses cost a lot of money, need to be "protected", need to be in the best shape possible, etc... Is there a middle point somewhere, a balance between being a horse but preventing bad situations? opinions anyone:cool:


Cindy Sydnor's horses are out in a 20 acre pasture every moment they aren't working, and they go out naked -- no boots, blankets, etc. I know this is rare, but I respect her so much for this. She believes horses should be allowed to be what they are -- horses. And her horses do look happy, and she certainly is successful.

[cartera45]

My TB's not lazy or too sensible sometimes, but you can't find an easier keeper. She thrives on hay and grass and the handful of grain that she only gets because I mix in flaxseed and Lubrisyn. She looks like a cow in the summer on the overgrazed, less that disireable grass where I board her. She will soon be going to a farm to have timber racing babies and I have to warn them that they may need a muzzle since they have so much pasture.

What do you guys mean by the "modern day" TB? You go back a few generations, and you can't tell them apart.

[JHUshoer20]

I'm going to go a bit the other way.

When horses truly worked for their livings, they spent a good deal of time locked up in stalls, with very, very little turn out, if any. They were fed high grain diets with little grazing and often worked into the ground...literally. They were beasts of burden and treated as such ("Black Beauty" WAS based in reality). Barns and stables are not a new concept, and keeping horses stabled (often in standing stalls) was standard practice, and has been for thousands of years.
Major difference here, you're talking about horses working for a living.

Time spent pulling a buggy down the road or plowing a field or carrying a mounted soldier can easily translate to same as turnout.

Is a world of difference from an animal in a stall 23 and a half hours a day with 10 minutes on a lunge line, 10 minutes in the shower stall and 10 minutes on cross ties as their stall gets cleaned.

Nothing at all wrong with horses working, but when they don't work they should be out. As much as possible.
George

[Dianna]

Yes, the horses of today live far more "restricted" lives than their wild ancestors but the argument that stalls equal stress equal ulcers isn't necessarily correct ... some ulcers are not from stress at all.

One poster said in 20 plus years of having horses living out she has not had a colic. That is great; but, for 20 plus years that I have been doing horses, who are out 1/2 the day and in for the evening ... I have not had a colic (now, that should jinx me). I haven't had a horse with ulcers or that cribbed or weaved (whoops - yes, I did have a weaver, he came off the track as such and he actually got better with time ... but he still had stall time and outside time.

Do I think my horses could live off the land ... I doubt it, but not because they are hot house flowers .... I don't think there were many mustangs that were 17 and 18 hands ....

I think that with the good came bad and with the bad we learned better dealing mechanisms.

[Tory Relic]

We were just talking about this elsewhere as it pertains to colic.

I think in general, a lot of the the issues we see with horses can be tied back to human interference. ;)

IR? We're not working them enough and we're feeding too danged much. The breeds with high instance of IR like arabs, morgans, pasos, QH's? They were designed to live on air and get the crap ridden out of them. We do not use horses like we used to.

Colic? We tinker too damned much with feed.

Ulcers? Cribbing? Um...turnout! Turnout! Turnout! That and cutting corners on forage and tryin to increase calories with rain while cuttin back forage.

Generally speaking, the healthiest horses I know are the ones left out, on forage only diets, who get WORKED.

ETA: my "g" key is stickin. rain=Grain. Sorry.

I think she's nailed it.

[Sithly]

This is a very interesting topic; I've often wondered the same thing. In fact, I've wondered the same thing about humans. These days our reproductive success has less and less to do with our suitability to the environment -- what are the long-term reprecussions?

I think we're facing a similar problem with our horses. Now that horses are no longer necessary for work, their reproductive success is dictated by nothing more than our whims. And we've proven in this country that our whims can ruin a working breed in short order.

[J Swan]

Me too.

I never like to get to into the "wild horse" stuff - because the comparison only goes so far.

The "good old days" for horses - were not exactly good. Veterinary care and farriery have come a long way - and now that we no longer use them for transportation, we have the luxury of treating them for things that in the past, would have sent a horse to the knacker.

If we compared an average healthy "old timey" horse, and an average healthy "modern" horse - I'd say - the modern horse may technically be more healthy, but would also probably be overweight, underworked, and stuff full of every supplement under the sun.

In that respect, yeah, a modern horse might be called a hothouse flower. If a person depended upon their horse to get to work - I think all these special shoeing, special feed, supplements and stuff would quickly go by the wayside.

Used to be an average horse was good at many things. The family drove the horse to church, the horse could plow a field, and the horse often hunted. In the summer, that horse might do shows as well. If you look at old pictures of horses in horse shows - chances are that horse hunted and drove as well. And they did it without supplements and herbs and magnets.

Today's horse is very unlikely to do these things. The jumper doesn't hunt. The dressage horse never leaves the arena. Horses have been pigeonholed and overfed and underworked - and people have to give them calming supplements to ride them. The world has changed.

Very beautiful hothouse flowers. I guess it's not a bad thing - depending on how you look at it. Folks are more likely to keep a horse until old age, or work within a horses physical limitations, or even spend a lot of money on vet care.

That just wasn't very practical in the past.

The only thing I think is "bad" is that people really really go overboard on feeding and supplements. Spend the money on riding lessons instead - learning how to sit through a frisky horse's silliness really isn't difficult.

In short - more hay - less grain. ;)

[deltawave]

Getting back to what yellowbritches was saying. Yes, horses DID work for a living back then, but they often DID also stand around. I'm sure not every horse got worked every day in livery stables, for instance, or in the cavalry, or the carting trade. They STOOD (usually in standing stalls) until it was time to work, then they worked HARD. Sound familiar? Been on the racetrack? :) Except they have box stalls.

Hard work is natural to a horse (or any animal) but being in a stable is not. We're all preaching to the choir there, because nobody DOESN'T agree that outside is better, etc. Yet what are we DOING about it? A couple of other posters wondered about or mentioned "really valuable" show horses not getting turnout, etc. I'd love to hear of or from really competitive riders in the upper levels of horse sports who actually DO let their horses live out (not counting layups) and be horses.

Another question I'd like to re-state: is anyone considering the overall health and inherent "toughness" in stallions or mares they choose for breeding?

[enjoytheride]

What about saddle fitting?

I know today's wider warmbloods need saddles bigger then yesterday's narrow TB saddles, but gosh!

Every horse now needs a custom saddle from a custom fitter, reflocking monthly, and special pads. He also needs acupuncture, massage, and chirpractic work.

Did yesterday's horse suffer miserably under ill fitting saddles while the cruel humans rode them over fences and cross country? Or did they do just fine?

[deltawave]

Oh God, another GREAT example of guilty-owner angst, etr! Both my horses wear both my saddles. Call PETA, somebody! :eek: :lol:

[Tuff Tilly]

There is no "Survival of the fittest" anymore. Even the weak have a chance to survive due to modern day vet practises. We have all this technology and knowledge (or lack thereof) and I don't think things are being well thought through.

In the past, if a horse broke it's leg it was weak and generally put down. Now if a horse breaks it's leg not only can we heal the leg but there are folk out there who would consider breeding the animal. If a horse foundered or coliced badly, likely it was PUT DOWN.

Now we do everything we can to save a horse, which isn't always a bad thing. However, the possibility of that horse being bred and passing on whatever unhealthy properties it my be genetically pre-disposed for is extremely high with the number of people out there breeding just to breed or breeding with a single trait in mind. Ie: Breeding fast to fast for fast TB babies to race at the track and make money.

I love modern day medicine, I think it does wonders, but you have to wonder how much good it's really doing in the end. When there's no survival of the fittest what other awful diseases and disorders are headed our way in nature's attempt to self cull and how will medicine respond?

[deltawave]

Well, in the end we're ALL doomed. The sun is going to burn up in about 5 million years. :) I think we'll have finished ourselves off long before that, though. What can we do? We're a HIGHLY imperfect species muddling through time and space doing what our brains allow us to do.

(must stop reading philosophy books, must stop reading philosophy books, must stop reading philosophy books...) :D

[JHUshoer20]

This link is to an interview with the late Burney Chapman a few years back. Although it covers a wide range of subjects I think the part where he talks about club feet in thoroughbreds is of particular interest to this thread.

http://www.anvilmag.com/farrier/intbc2.htm

George

[hey101]

Jane Sleeper lets her horses live out. I remember reading that Winsome Adante, for the most part, lived out.

I think the problem isn't the horses, but the owners. They feed them too much and don't work them enough.

[Auventera Two]

For every 1 post of a horse having 13 quatillion dollars worth of vet bills and still no diagnosis, there are a thousand more without problems. How often have you started a thread that said "Hi guys, everything is good with my horse! No problems, just wanted to post and say hi."

Um, no.

People post when they have a problem or a concern, usually, or to give an update on a previous problem.

And remember that for every 1 person that posts on this board, there are thousands in the U.S. (and elsewhere) who don't.

So I'm not really sure how you can judge the health and wealth of today's horses based on a sporthorse bulletin board. Would rancher cowboys posts about ulcers, ringbone, and obscure lameness? Probably not. They'd probably just toss the hoss out in the back 40 and pull in another to do a days' work on. Sporthorse people are a unique bunch. ;)

I was recently informed that all endurance horses are "400 dollar hillbilly nags" (their words, not mine) so myabe that's why the endurance boards I read don't necessarily have this many problems posted. Maybe people just don't spend thousands of dollars in vet bills on a 400 dollar hillbilly nag, but sporthorse people with an 80,000 dollar imported treasure do. Don't know.

[ManyDogs]

OK-I think this might be the thread to ask this question:
My Perch X (3.5 years) has had one wonky hoof-LF-flares and chips when all of the others are OK. We are working on "stand for the farrier" skills (she was antsy, not bad like kicking, etc) and I was in the process of making another farrier appt. However, the past week or two or three (seems like a year) we have had rain, slop, glop, and a general quagmire in the pasture. So, after spending her days in the muck (and I'd like to point out that she stood in the muck by choice-the rest of the paddock was reasonable) and some time in the barn/stall, I put her back out and I was amazed to see that her LF hoof was in great shape; looked like the farrier had been out just a few days ago. She and her pasturemate have been out 24/7 except for the few days this past week when the weather was bitterly cold and windy. Seems like a nice dose of cool mud was a natural "spa" treatment.

I am all for keeping horses out as much as possible. When we lived in Alaska, the guides would turn out their horses in the wilderness all winter (and we're talking 50 below F here) and the horses would show up in the Spring looking extremely hairy but in good shape. Due to the 20 hours of daylight in the summer and lots of rain, there was always plenty of grass available under the snow.

[flyingchange]

God there are some judgemental people on this board. Live and let live.

I agree with YB that we have made huge advances in all types of medicine - human and animal. And we humans and our animals are reaping the benefits.

I'm sure there were lots of undiagnosed/untreated human diseases in the past that today (depending on where you live / how much money you have and therefore whether you have access to healthcare) are treated. We as humans benefit from these advances. Same is true for our animals. Whether they pull carts for a living, stand around in stalls, or run around in 100 acre pastures all day long.

And if Joe Horse Owner wants to supplement his horse until the cows come home, thats totally fine! Who cares? As long as the horse is OK and not being mistreated/neglected/abused, then what business is it of anybody else's anyway?

[deltawave]

A2, I think whoever you were responding to there has a valid point. I really DO think that there are more horses out there "doing fine" than NOT doing fine, even among "us".

No, this BB is not a broad, deep slice of horse owners. But it IS a place where people come to share things that are out of the ordinary, "newsworthy", if you will.

There aren't, you must admit, very many posts entitled "My horse is doing fine, everything's hunky dory" here. Major bias in a forum entitled "HORSE CARE" for people to post concerns, problems, etc. Even among this admittedly small slice of the population, you are seeing, by definition, skewed viewpoints and questions from those who are having problems, perceived problems, or who are wishing to do things better.

[Dianna]

Actually I am one who doesn't agree that all horses would do better out 24/7 ... I am not an all or nothing person in any area of my life ... I believe that there is a delicate balance that needs to be observed which is easier for those who have their own facilities than those who have to board out ... but I believe that all in all there are no horses standing around saying .. gee, I miss the good old days like when my grand daddy was young.

[Sithly]

So I'm not really sure how you can judge the health and wealth of today's horses based on a sporthorse bulletin board. Would rancher cowboys posts about ulcers, ringbone, and obscure lameness? Probably not. They'd probably just toss the hoss out in the back 40 and pull in another to do a days' work on. Sporthorse people are a unique bunch.

True, but most of us are also drawing on a wider base of horse experience than just the BB. When the OP mentioned lameness, for example, I didn't think about the lameness posts I've read here -- I thought about all the people I know from the barn (several) with unsound, unusable horses.

[Thomas_1]

I don't think they're more fragile. But I do think there's a lot more in the hands of folks who overfeed them with too little forage and too much hard feed and with too little work to do.

All of which contributes massively to the increase in problems mentioned.

The ILPH has seen a 100% increase in calls relating to extreme obesity and a 1000% increase in laminitis.

My equine vets in their Annual Newsletter reported a 200% increase in obesity related illness and including laminitis.

A lot of people have a problem with their diets and fat regulation and with metabolic syndromes and sadly this is too often inflicted on their horses.

[MistyBlue]

I do think the instant info we can share world wide via the internet is definitely skewing beliefs about general horse health.
However...there is a question delta is trying to ask and I'd love to hear more answers for it. And maybe it could be posted on the breeding forum. (horrors ;) )
Anywho...are breeders breeding for hardiness/general health? Are they producing horses with the best chances of saying physically and mentally healthy? Will they not breed an otherwise good horse (mare or stallion) if it's prone to ulcers, nervous issues, stall walking, mild chronic colics, shelly feet, etc?

[Peggy]

IMHO, it's a combination of things.

We know more now, we have better diagnostics, we have better drugs. Thus more things are diagnosed and treated. I would love to bring back Jive and see if modern veterinary medicine could have helped him to gallop and jump even longer. The downside is that people want to use treatments or drugs that may not be appropriate, just b/c they're available or someone said they needed them.

The demographics of horse owners is shifting. Fewer people do their own and thus rely on a vet and/or a trainer to "fix" the horse. More money is being spent so there is more motivation to keep the horse going. More money also means more money for diagnostics and drugs and massages.

Also agree with the above posted who cited the greater variety of breeds. For example, when I was a kid and pretty much everyone had some variant of a TB or QH we fed our horses alfalfa (this is California) and they all did OK. Some of the horses with more cold/warm blood don't do as well on that diet. Were our TB's tougher or just different?

[deltawave]

Thanks for refocusing, MB. If a horse misses 2 months of training or showing due to mild laminitis, ulcers, colic...should that be equated with the more "mechanical" types of unsoundness that "turn off" potential buyers, like a bowed tendon or bad stifles?

I'm picturing shopping for a horse (not planning on it) and having to ask, in addition to all the soundness questions, about the horse's "challenges" in terms of diet, metabolism, etc. etc. Not terribly appealing!

[Calena]

I used to post on a thoroughbred racing forum. One of the men posting was a long-time racing TB/QH breeder and trainer. He brought out a significant point that I think is pertinent to this conversation. When comparing the 'old-timer super tough' thoroughbreds to today's 'hot-house flowers', he insisted the modern horses are at least as tough if not more so than the old timers. He also agreed there were more injuries, but he explained why.

What we forget is that the modern horses are working at a much higher level than the old-timers. Man O War's world records have all been broken. The modern race horses would smoke the old timers. With increased speed comes increased stress at all levels. Also, Man O War wasn't put on a plane and flown half way around the world to race at world class levels in the desert and then flown back home and prepared to race again.

Yes, there are breeding factories churning out poor quality fancy horses. But I'd say that the overall quality being put on the ground by knowledgeable, responsible breeders is better than yesteryear. And knowledgeable trainers and riders are producing brilliant athletes and keeping them sound and healthy in the most difficult circumstances.

I really think the breakdown is in the overall quality of horsemanship. Too much money, too many people getting into the game with too little knowledge and not enough good mentors to teach them the ropes. How hard is it to teach people that horses need to move. everyday. a lot. and not be fat. Come to think of it, we're having a heck of a time teaching people that they also need to do this.

I most definitely don't blame the breeding or the horses.

[JHUshoer20]

I really think the breakdown is in the overall quality of horsemanship. Too much money, too many people getting into the game with too little knowledge and not enough good mentors to teach them the ropes. How hard is it to teach people that horses need to move. everyday. a lot. and not be fat. Come to think of it, we're having a heck of a time teaching people that they also need to do this.

Absolutely, is a major problem I see no solution to
George

[equinelaw]

I think we see more of some things and less of others. Pick up a horsecare text thats more then 10 years old. Read the list of common ailments. Fistuluos withers? Poll evil? Bots clogging the intestines? Old Farnum Horse Care books?? Ewwwww! All kinds of scary stuff we dont see any more and its been replaced witht suff that could not have been diagnosed in the past.

The fact is, that as much as we wish it were not true, PMU mares are a hardy, healthy bunch of horses. They have been studied for years and suffer no stress or problems with sitting aorung doing nothing all day.

In fact, if you have ever had to watch a group of horses (broodmares in my case) for more then 24 hours, you realize that they don't do much of anything but eat eat eat and doze, a little sleep, and maybe 2x trips to the water trough a day. Its a farily boring life.

Geldings play more beucase they can--no babies to worry about or feed--but stress does not cause cribbing, ulcers, or most other ailments except those that are related to a lowered immune system--and we still have very little idea of what does and does not cause stress in a domestic horse. the research is out there and it does not support 24/7 as being more healthy.

Thats how my horse lives and any horse I have will live, but thats for my benefit. I can't stand to see a horse locked in a stall all day. However, the Eurpopean traners I worked for int he 80's didn't even believe in turn-out. They said that was "an American thing" and although I disagreed, the horses were fine.

25 years ago I can't remeber any barns where 70% of the horses were not on daily bute (4 pills 2x was normal) or Banimine or Ace. I do remember foundered horses--they went to the auction ASAP. I do remember every horse evrywhere being on molasas covered sweatfeed and not dropping dead.

I think we are more educated, aware, and even ethical in our treatment of horses so we find more stuff to treat and fix instead of throwing the horse away when its tire goes flat.

So, instead of trying to find out what we are doing wrong--I apllaud all of us for doing such a darn good job we know what the inside of our horses stomach linung looks like as easily as we know if they have heat in their leg or a lost shoe. Yeah us!:)

[Fluffie]

What we forget is that the modern horses are working at a much higher level than the old-timers. Man O War's world records have all been broken. The modern race horses would smoke the old timers. With increased speed comes increased stress at all levels. Also, Man O War wasn't put on a plane and flown half way around the world to race at world class levels in the desert and then flown back home and prepared to race again.

Hmmm, but you're overlooking the fact that track surfaces have increased speed, advancements in vet technology have improved care (and therefore health/performance), and that when Man O' War traveled, it was long treks via TRAIN.

In addition, I also don't agree that every horse MUST be kept out 24/7 or else. My guy came from living in a pasture a raging cribber with horrible feet. He now has minimal turnout (which, BTW, is not by my choice--I do like a long playtime) and his cribbing has reduced dramatically and his feet are better (always had a good farrier).

And, in my 17 years of showing hunters, I can proudly say that I've never met a trainer who keeps his/her horses with NO turnout.

[sublimequine]

Honestly? I don't think horses are that much more fragile. I think owners are getting more neurotic. :lol::lol::lol:

[Bluehorsesjp]

Colic? We tinker too damned much with feed.

Ulcers? Cribbing? Um...turnout! Turnout! Turnout! That and cutting corners on forage and tryin to increase calories with rain while cuttin back forage.

Generally speaking, the healthiest horses I know are the ones left out, on forage only diets, who get WORKED.

ETA: my "g" key is stickin. rain=Grain. Sorry.

Can the turnout issue also be put in the category of less rural land? Let's face it farms and ranches have become farmettes and ranchettes. Horse properties are getting smaller and are encroached upon by sub-divisions and strip malls.

I worked at a barn in California that had 4 turnouts for 50 horses. Try to rotate that through. And there were beautiful houses built all around the facility. Go figure.

[Thomas_1]

Can the turnout issue also be put in the category of less rural land? Let's face it farms and ranches have become farmettes and ranchettes. Horse properties are getting smaller and are encroached upon by sub-divisions and strip malls.

I worked at a barn in California that had 4 turnouts for 50 horses. Try to rotate that through. And there were beautiful houses built all around the facility. Go figure.Heck if you think you've a shortage of rural land in the USA, you really need to travel more!

Of course I entirely understand that land immediately adjacent to urban connerbations has the potential as development land and hence will be of higher price, but there sure as apples are apples isn't less land. And neither is land that expensive there (relative to other countries that is).

Rather than relating to the land, it relates to the change in demographics in horse owners. More common is the horse as a lifestyle choice or a "hobby horse". Folks want to own horses on the cheap and that means they put their horses at livery where someone has bought or retained just small pockets of land (having maximised the potential by selling a lot off for development) or else because it is in some way protected as rural or not suitable for building.

So you look at areas where there's a mass of owners who are urban dwellers and claim they can't afford to buy land and yet they can afford flash cars and all the luxuries that go with that consumer lifestyle. But their horses are kept with inadequate turnout - in the likes of pipe corals etc etc.

I might be missing something, but you have the number of horses you can manage and according to your resources so if you only have 4 acres you wouldn't (or shouldn't IMO) be having 50 horses.

And if you do, then you need to accept the fact that they will likely be developing a lot of the illnesses on the increase in the equine population and particularly ulcers, colic, laminitis and other diet and stress related disorders.

[yellowbritches]

To those wondering about top level riders who keep their horses out all the time, I know of one very, very, very big name event rider who keeps her horses out 24/7 , unless stabled at an event. Her horses aren't immune to injuries and issues (one had colic surgery a few years ago).

I don't think people got the point of my original post. We know SO much more now than we did that we do attempt to take care of our horses better. We have no way of knowing if ulcers, etc were as prevalent 50, 100, 150 years ago, but I'd bet they were...horses were fed just as poorly (even more poorly) on high grain diets. Because they rarely saw the light of day unless working, forage was substituted with more grain. Stress and high grain diets are known causes of ulcers...wouldn't working horses be under a lot of stress? I was not saying that horses that worked for a living were worse off...my point was that we have better a better understanding to how horses should be cared for now. In the past, horses were vehicles and tools and were, for the most part, considered disposable. If one broke down or colicked, it was replaced, quickly. Now we know how to fix things and prevent things. Isn't that a better way to live?

Yes, horses are often their healthiest when they are left out as much as possible (though, that doesn't mean they are not going to have any issues...I still nearly lost a horse to colic caused by ulcers last spring, and he hasn't lived in a stall in years). But even the ones who don't aren't getting better care...usually.

[War Admiral]

Honestly, if I hear "barns are for people" one more time, I'm gonna puke.

HRH Avery, left out 24/7, would have unquestionably died YEARS ago. Six times over. As it is, despite careful management, he has at least 2 major attacks of anhydrosis EVERY summer, which require cold-hosing, ice, and a fan. When he's out 24/7, he's too nervous to sleep, which leads to additional lameness issues, ulcers, and narcoleptiform episodes. If I didn't loff him so much I would actually offer to turn him over to one of these "barns are for people" Nazis and see how long y'all seriously think you could keep him alive, in good weight, and relatively sound on that regimen.

Most of the people who feel like this have NEVER come in contact with a hard-keeping TB. I do believe, as someone else posted, that we have bred the hardiness out of some breeds, TBs in particular though ASBs are definitely edging nearer to a place on the short list in my mind as well. When you start breeding for a particular desired trait you run the risk of inadvertently also bringing in undesireable ones.

I do think, speaking as an older person, that our understanding of nutrition and overall horse health has increased a gazillionfold since I first started riding in the late 1950s. This is good. :)

Crap management practices are crap management practices, and always have been. And it doesn't matter whether we are talking insufficient turnout or too MUCH turnout. There are just too many programs out there where people are trying to force a horse into a regimen for which that horse is not suited, physically or temperamentally. You HAVE to look at the individual horse. And too many big barns signally fail to do that.

[camohn]

We keep around 12 horses. In many years I have had one horse with an ulcer (came from a race barn with it....24/7 turnout and little grain took care of that) and one died of colic (but that was a post foaling twist colic unrealted to any feed issues). We have had our share of pasture squabble bumps and bruises and nope we don't have halter horses or conformation hunters.....but we do have generally health horses with excellent feet. They are turned out 24/7 except for severe weather (heat/storms) 3 seasons (spring/summer/fall) and in the winter are out 12 hours/in at night.They do NOT like the freezing rain or frozen mud we have had of late! Only one likes to be in. 11 of the 12 can't wait to get out in the morning. We do have that one that just hates going out unless the weather is perfect and she WOULD be happy being a stalled show horse. But, she is the exception. Our horses have a lot of good pasture and get hay supplemented in winter. They get on average 1 quart a grain with a vitamin supp in summer/2 quarts in winter. FWIW we have mostly TBs and some have come here in pretty thin shape with reps as hard keepers. Only one turned out to be a truly hard keeper. There is always an exception to the rule....like WarAdmirals horse or our one single horse that does not like all that turnout. Living out is not the same as unmonitored or left to fend for themselves. Our on true hard keeper does live out but is separated at feeding time to make sure she gets all her grain as she is also a low pecking order horse. They are checked daily for boo boos at feeding time. Living out can mean anything from "monitored living out" to "throw em out on the range". With 12 horses and a barn with enough stalls for all in bad weather we are the first. The girl that used to work for us is now working at a ranch in TX with 250 head of QHs. I am pretty sure where she is is the latter! Yup, I would agree that breeding for a certain trait does lend itself to breeding out hardiness in some breeds like TBs where in many race breeding programs dates are picked based on speed and pedigree. All in all: few horses mentally or physically can't hack a lot of turnout but they are the vast minority.

[JHUshoer20]

This continual talk of ulcers brings something else to mind. Yes it can be stress related but it's absolutely, positively guaranteed to happen with bute.

Bute rots guts! So badly in fact that they quit using it in human medicine. Is unfortunate that too many horse people feed bute like Christmas candy.

On the racetrack all of them are on bute. Should we be surprised that over 90% of them have ulcers?

That should not be something you grab for like an aspirin.
George

[deltawave]

Bute was yanked for humans because of fatal reports of aplastic anemia. It is no more likely to cause ulcers in humans (or horses) than over-the-counter motrin or any other NSAID. Including aspirin. :)

[ProzacPuppy]

Another point is that today there are some VERY VERY EXPENSIVE horses in the show world and owners and trainers are hesitant to put a $250,000 jumper into a field with other horses or alot of space to run due to the very real possibility of an injury either from another horse, even in play, or a bad step on uneven ground or a slip in damp grass. And there are many 6 figure horses in the show ring now. God forbid your hunter enter the ring with little "love nips" all over its neck or flank.

Regarding my comments on TBs not being especially suited to 24/7 turnout (though it does depend upon the individual), my OTTB even many years removed from the track and aging, can get up quite a head of steam in a large paddock. I am also keenly aware that his sire and his most famous sibling both died untimely deaths as results of "paddock mishaps" (and I have spoken with both horses' caretakers who confirmed that it was just a mixture of "speed and a bad step"). The speed, the desire to run run run is inbred into the TB. With some of them you have to step in and protect them from themselves.

I think our current knowledge level about horse health has added years of productive life to many many horses that years earlier might have died or had to be euthanized due to health issues.

Are todays horses "hothouse flowers"? Yes, most definitely some are, partly due to breeding (and "inbreeding" to a certain extent) to enhance specific characteristics and skills. And part of their "wrapped in bubblewrap" existence is due to owners who have alot invested in the animals - both emotional and financial. As someone pointed out earlier, a hundred years ago most horse owners treated them as property to be used and replaced. Now- how many of you are paying upkeep on a beloved horse that is no longer capable of doing the job you originally purchased it for? Not a big deal if one has acreage but what about fools like me who pay full board at pricey barns to keep our ex-h/j in style (becoming much more common as acreage for farms is gobbled up by developers and personal farms vanish).

[BuddyRoo]

Well, just to be clear, I was making some generalizations. Obviously, there are always exceptions, special situations, etc etc.

For example...I've never really been into blanketing. And my horses have historically been out with shelter 24/7 or stalled at night in the winter.

Well, this year, about the time everyone was growing coats (early Oct), my mare contracted PHF. She did not grow a coat. The combination of drugs, stress, whatever--she just never grew one this year. I've had this horse for 16 years and she has always been a woolly beast happiest outside. But THIS year, after finding her shivering, she has been blanketed ever since....

Did we make her this way? Was it her being spoiled for years? No....she was sick! It happens. So I'm not saying there's only one right way. What I AM saying is that in many cases, the problems we see are due to our horse husbandry--well meaning I'm sure--but there it is.

[equinelaw]

When we select horse for traits like speed, we are also selecting horses for resistance to stress and other things that would keep them from winning races. No wins, no stud fees.
I think they break down faster, but they make it to the races long enough to win and they do it in the face of management practices--so we are also breeding for stall bound high stress hardiness.

When you breed for non-performance traits like color or bubble butts--then you may seperate hardiness from reproductive success.

[Fluffie]

Rather than relating to the land, it relates to the change in demographics in horse owners. More common is the horse as a lifestyle choice or a "hobby horse". Folks want to own horses on the cheap and that means they put their horses at livery where someone has bought or retained just small pockets of land (having maximised the potential by selling a lot off for development) or else because it is in some way protected as rural or not suitable for building.

So you look at areas where there's a mass of owners who are urban dwellers and claim they can't afford to buy land and yet they can afford flash cars and all the luxuries that go with that consumer lifestyle. But their horses are kept with inadequate turnout - in the likes of pipe corals etc etc.

My dear, you are the one who needs to travel more. ;)

I live in Illinois, which is, theoritically "farm country". The problem is that "farms" mean plant crops (beans and corn) and a smattering of cows. The vast majority of open land is dedicated to these pursuits, which leave no land for horsies (most of the farmers I have encountered have NO use for horses at all, even as boarders to live with the cows--too high maintance comepared to the bovines!, and you can't milk/eat them generally).

To buy an acre of "God's land", in the area within a reasonable driving distance from where I work, would cost me around $100,000/acre; for two horses I would need at least 2 acres-->$200,000. Keep in mind that these prices do not include taxes and buildings (and these aren't just the asking prices--this is what land goes for 'round here). The "cheaper" land near me is 1. far from work 2. outside the traveling ranges of any decent vets/farriers 3. is "non productive" land, meaning that is one big hillside, a wetland (which comes with governmental restrictions such as "no horses") and/or 4. riddled with mine subsidence. What fun!! :eek:

And as far as so many of us trying to get by on the cheap? Well, talk to my fancy, 9-year-old Pontiac, my apartment on the property, and my second job to suppliment my income enough to afford my cheap boarding bill at one of the most expensive barns in this general area. No, the turnout isn't great, but at least the horses get fed 2Xday, water, clean stalls, a safe place to ride, and terriffic medical care. That's more than I can say about many of the barns, regardless of boarding OR private. :yes:

[Tory Relic]

Heck if you think you've a shortage of rural land in the USA, you really need to travel more!

Of course I entirely understand that land immediately adjacent to urban connerbations has the potential as development land and hence will be of higher price, but there sure as apples are apples isn't less land. And neither is land that expensive there (relative to other countries that is).

Rather than relating to the land, it relates to the change in demographics in horse owners. More common is the horse as a lifestyle choice or a "hobby horse". Folks want to own horses on the cheap and that means they put their horses at livery where someone has bought or retained just small pockets of land (having maximised the potential by selling a lot off for development) or else because it is in some way protected as rural or not suitable for building.

So you look at areas where there's a mass of owners who are urban dwellers and claim they can't afford to buy land and yet they can afford flash cars and all the luxuries that go with that consumer lifestyle. But their horses are kept with inadequate turnout - in the likes of pipe corals etc etc.

I might be missing something, but you have the number of horses you can manage and according to your resources so if you only have 4 acres you wouldn't (or shouldn't IMO) be having 50 horses.

And if you do, then you need to accept the fact that they will likely be developing a lot of the illnesses on the increase in the equine population and particularly ulcers, colic, laminitis and other diet and stress related disorders.

Very good points, Thomas. Many people want horses as possessions like the flash cars, Wii's, cellphones, and, and.....

None of this is bad, unless you overdo it and the horse(s) suffer. The current generation (in America) has been taught they can do anything and have everything. Every kid can be a CEO, notwithstanding the fact that there are more qualified people than CEO positions.

It's positive thinking run amok.

[Tory Relic]

Honestly, if I hear "barns are for people" one more time, I'm gonna puke.

HRH Avery, left out 24/7, would have unquestionably died YEARS ago. Six times over. As it is, despite careful management, he has at least 2 major attacks of anhydrosis EVERY summer, which require cold-hosing, ice, and a fan. When he's out 24/7, he's too nervous to sleep, which leads to additional lameness issues, ulcers, and narcoleptiform episodes. If I didn't loff him so much I would actually offer to turn him over to one of these "barns are for people" Nazis and see how long y'all seriously think you could keep him alive, in good weight, and relatively sound on that regimen.

Most of the people who feel like this have NEVER come in contact with a hard-keeping TB. I do believe, as someone else posted, that we have bred the hardiness out of some breeds, TBs in particular though ASBs are definitely edging nearer to a place on the short list in my mind as well. When you start breeding for a particular desired trait you run the risk of inadvertently also bringing in undesireable ones.

I do think, speaking as an older person, that our understanding of nutrition and overall horse health has increased a gazillionfold since I first started riding in the late 1950s. This is good. :)

Crap management practices are crap management practices, and always have been. And it doesn't matter whether we are talking insufficient turnout or too MUCH turnout. There are just too many programs out there where people are trying to force a horse into a regimen for which that horse is not suited, physically or temperamentally. You HAVE to look at the individual horse. And too many big barns signally fail to do that.

I agree that an individual horse has to be considered.

However, I have a 14 year old hard keeper Thoroughbred that was on the track until she was five, stabled 12 hours when she came to me, and then only stabled during bad weather. She is now out 24/7 and is healthier than she ever has been. I've had to tinker with her feed to get the right combination, but the more forage, less grain rule works wonderfully.

I'm pushing 50, so I'm not a youngster, and I've been around Thoroughbreds most of my life, including some very hard keepers.

[Avra]

While there are certainly horses with special needs, and certainly some TBs in that category--I sort of doubt that they're really as delicate as most sporthorse people think. Swing by one of those big, fancy TB farms some day--the stallions are pampered, sure, but the mares and foals, and any yearlings not aimed at a sale--generally live pretty rough. They're often out 24/7, grained as a group, have minimal shelter, etc. Somehow they survive, though.

[Dianna]

You know part of the equation is not only healthier but happier as well ... and there are (no matter how much you would like to think this is not true) horses that are happier and more content coming in to sleep on their deeply bedded straw stalls .... sure maybe they can get use to being out 24/7 laying on the ground, being rained on, snowed on, having the sun bake them and the flies eat them alive ... but some horses might actually prefer the comforts that they get through barn life as well.

It isn't that easy to determine what is best for each and every horse and certainly all horses won't benefit from the same type care ...

[pintopiaffe]

Is there any thinking among breeders of selecting horses based on their TOUGHNESS and resistance to "modern day" disorders?

Coming into this late, and posting my answer before reading responses so not as to taint what I think on this.

As a breeder, one of my main goals is a SOUND SANE horse. As a bonus, I don't think you should have to mortgage the farm to buy it. But, I breed *specifically* for soundness and suitability for the job.

I don't know of one of my babies that needs shoes for normal work. I'm not sure but one of them might have gotten front shoes for eventing, but I know the rest have fabulous feet.

They have great bone. Not too much, and they are not giant horses, they are just horses. Their angles are good. One guy is a little long in the hind fetlocks, no idea where that came from as he has 7 full and half sibs without that. Stuff *does* happen, but... Those angles and that bone will allow them to step under themselves and have proper carriage for dressage and eventing.

I also crossbreed. Hybrid vigour is a proven phenomenon. I don't cross willy-nilly, I breed type to type, and then back to breed, then back out, etc. There is a plan. But, by outcrossing, you tend to avoid the problems within a breed.

I want my horses to be sound and still working at upper levels well into their 20's, without joint injections or special shoes or miracle barefoot trims etc.

Now, I'll say I am agonizing a little over... saddle fit. All my kids tend toward the stupid-wide-and-impossible-to-fit. And I don't know that I'm doing the world a service by propagating that! I have thought long and hard about that! It *is* a rideability issue too--if the back angles (too wide/flat right on top, vs the 'overall' big horse) mean it hurts to ride, or takes more-than-normal flexibility or stretching of the hips. Sounds goofy, but I look at those things as a breeder.

That's also though, why I BREED still. There are lots and lots of lovely horses out there looking for good homes. I've been trashed for breeding when there are all those rescues. But at some point in your life, if you are SERIOUS about riding and competing, you get to a point where you a) want to start from scratch, not a retrain/project/rehab etc. and b) need as much soundness and promise of longevity as you can possibly manage. Good breeding hedges your bets in that regards. Of COURSE no one can guarantee soundness-accidents happen, but you have a better chance of long term soundness when you have generations of long-term-sound performance horses behind you.

Being purpose bred, I feel is important too. I am not asking a stock horse to do dressage--can they, Yup. Is it easy or comfortable or the best thing for their conformation, Nope. So I am breeding horses built to sit behind, lift through the back, use their neck, and have a natural 'carriage' for the sports I intend them for. This leads to longevity.

Finally--though it is my absolute #1 priority--I breed for sanity. A sensible horse won't worry as much. Will look at life as an adventure. IMO, is less likely to weave, panic, go off feed, not drink... all the things that happen when we show or travel etc. I've always thought my stallion could be an international horse--not because we're training at that level ( :lol: ) but because he takes travelling soooo smoothly. Stand on the trailer for a few hours? Okeydokey. Stay in a strange horse's stall overnight? MMMMmmm new smells, this is fun! Travel 5 hours in summer heat, then have an intense lesson... gee, there's a strong sulfur smell to the water here, but MAN am I thirsty, THANKS let me empty that bucket.... he just has this absolutely fabulous demeanor for stuff like that. And that's the ONLY kind of horse I want to perpetuate.

I do think we are breeding hothouse flowers. We are breeding for more extravagant movement, finer heads that don't match the body, and other traits that aren't inherently bad--but are tied in with every other function of the body and brain... and HAVE repercussions.

Management? We've learned a lot, but in that, forgotten a lot. I like 24/7 turnout and free choice forage. Many people think that my horses being out in the snow is borderline abuse, and at the least neglect. My rule of thumb is if the boys aren't hiding in the run in, the girls don't need to go in the stalls. So far, no one's been in yet this year. ;) Yet--my stallion survived, and even bloomed, during 3 months of very, very limited turnout, but excellent work. The atmosphere was also calm, and yet with enough going on he was never bored and did not develop any stall vices. Completely *different* management, but still excellent management, and the horse proved it. Then there is managing for human convinience and not horse welfare. I don't believe I need to say anything about that other than it's wrong, and the horses will reflect it.

Finally, I think some of our breeding practices are very much at fault. We are breeding mares who would never get pregnant without the extraordinary measures. We are chemically manipulating things far beyond what is 'normal' for a mare; and breeding artificially, when sometimes Nature, in her innate knowledge would NEVER let that mare stand for that stallion.

[pintopiaffe]

I also wonder about the genetic influence. Would YOU breed a hard keeper who was prone to ulcers and needed special "maintenance"?

NO. No, and no. Nor will I breed a horse who has degenerative issues and has not held up to showing. There might be an exception to that rule, but this crap of 'my mare isn't sound any more so let's breed her' is just not acceptable practice. UNLESS she isn't sound from actual injury--things like my Trak mare who had a branch penetrate her stifle joint. THAT kind of stifle injury doesn't bother me. Weak stifles... no way.

[Katy Watts]

Thomas,
If a bunch of typical TB's were thrown out barefoot to fend for themselves in the highlands of Connemara, or say the Shetland Isles for a few years, how would they fare?
As well as the local ponies?
Katy

[Daydream Believer]

Thomas,
If a bunch of typical TB's were thrown out barefoot to fend for themselves in the highlands of Connemara, or say the Shetland Isles for a few years, how would they fare?
As well as the local ponies?
Katy

I'm not who you addressed this question to, but I remember seeing a television special once about a feral herd of TB's in South Africa that were let loose at some point. They lived in the harshest desert you could imagine. They were thin and poor but they survived the feral life...no shoes and no vets. Sure, some died...but as a group they survived.

Some of the healthiest horses I know are those out on the western ranches who live outside 365 days a year with no shelter and no grain. I do think most of our problems with modern breeds are from our keeping them in a way that goes against their basic nature...not enough exercise, too much grain, etc... I do agree that there are some genetically poor horses that we keep going where nature would not but I don't think it's anywhere near as many as people seem to think.

I actually had someone come to my farm for a tour...a potential boarder. She commented that she'd heard that I turn out boarder horses in the rain. I said yes, I do. She said "my horse has never felt a raindrop in his life" and then went on to state how concerned she would be for his health if he was out in falling weather at all. I told her that I disagreed with her belief that a little rain would hurt her horse and suggested she not board with me if that was a problem as I will not keep any horse in a stall for no good reason like injury or stall rest by a vet. I have not heard back from her so I guess she will stay in her current barn where the horses never go out. :no:

[Dianna]

OK, so let's look at it this way, then a large number of horse owners need to get rid of their horses, all boarding stables need to close and only those horses that can live what many of you deem the BETTER LIFE can be kept by the owners. So, what do you propose be done with these poor unfortunate mistreated horses?

Let's turn them loose ... gee, that has been happening here in AZ and guess what, they are finding dead horses in the desert ... or horses close enough to dead that they need to be HUMANELY destroyed, rather than dying due to the elements or lack thereof.

[camohn]

OK, so let's look at it this way, then a large number of horse owners need to get rid of their horses, all boarding stables need to close and only those horses that can live what many of you deem the BETTER LIFE can be kept by the owners. So, what do you propose be done with these poor unfortunate mistreated horses?

Let's turn them loose ... gee, that has been happening here in AZ and guess what, they are finding dead horses in the desert ... or horses close enough to dead that they need to be HUMANELY destroyed, rather than dying due to the elements or lack thereof.

Err....how did you manage to make that huuuge leap from "horses with more turnout have better ciruculation to their feet and eat more forage like Ma Nature intended to keep the gut moving and prevent many colics" equates to "we should get rid of boarding stables and turn em loose in the desert" ???

[Dianna]

That isn't where I took the leap from ... I agree with those points, but as you read through the threads there is one specific post that says that people are taking the cheaper route by boarding ...

The pure and simply truth of it is, horses are adaptable. Nothing is as good as it use to be 20 years ago and nothing was as good 20 years ago as it is today ... we make trade offs and we make advances and advances often times takes away from other areas of our lives.


My comments were more of a wake up call ... it doesn't matter that horses might to better IF because the IF cannot happen for the majority of horses or their owners and that for those owners who don't have the ability to provide what is being deemed best for horses in general, what should they do?

[LookinSouth]

. Then there is managing for human convinience and not horse welfare. I don't believe I need to say anything about that other than it's wrong, and the horses will reflect it.



And this mentality certainly doesn't help with the modern horse being a hothouse flower. More often than not the reasons for a horse to be stalled in a barn are for human convenience OR absolutely extreme weather. Moderate rain and snow are not extreme weather IMO.
My horse lives out 24/7 and it is rare he chooses to stand in his run- in whether it be sprinkling, pouring rain or a blizzard. Yeah it sucks when his neck is wet and legs muddy when I have to truck out to a lesson later that day or such but taking him in would not be fair to him. It would only be to serve MY purposes and cut my grooming time down.

It is common these days for horses to develop arthritis at VERY young ages. I think some of this can be attributed to the widely popular trend of turnout only a few hours a day. In addition, tiny dirt paddocks are not big enough for a horse to really stretch out and move around. Nor do they encourage moving around.

There was a study awhile back about the incidence of arthritis in wild horses ( I don't have the link :mad:) but suprisingly in the horses studied there was virtually no arthritis found. Scientists attributed this to the fact that feral horses graze and move around constantly. If you watch a horse grazing grass they take a step...nibble...take step..nibble. This maintains joint movement and fluidity constantly. Of course feeding hay makes the constant moving difficult but 24/7 turnout especially in larger spaces does encourage movement. I spread my guys hay around as much as possible to encourage them to move about and not just stand in one place to eat.

[deltawave]

I also think "arthritis" is a disorder that is MASSIVELY overdiagnosed, usually by owners without benefit of X-rays or even a vet exam. Not all lameness is joint related, and not all sore joints, even, are "arthritic", strictly speaking.

[sunridge1]

I have 10 ASB's that live outside 24/7 in Northern WI. I have raised,competed and enjoyed horses for 35+ years. In all the years and all the horses I've only had one special needs horse. And I purchased her at 20 very nearly dead and in 3 years at 23 she had a beautiful healthy foal.

They have run-in shelter. I don't blanket, did once then I realized it was a disservice.

Stallion was a stall baby for 10 years before I bought him. He's since been in a run in situation. After 3 years he barely uses it now. I've locked him in a stall to clean his paddock, he hates it. His cribbing has finally subsided.

There has never been a colic, hoof issue or IR issue. And I have one obese mare. Easy keeper. I fear obesity as much as I fear malnutrition. Maybe moreso.

I only grain the individual as needed. Most of my broodmares only receive mineral and the best quality hay I can buy.

Any supplements given is based on individual needs.

BTW I used to drink the Kool-aid for horse care. No more I bought enough property specifically to keep horses this way. They and I are better for it.

Mary

[Dianna]

Of course wild horses don't have humans breaking and riding them as 2YO's, they don't tote the weight of a saddle and a rider at any time in their lives ... I think the issues with lameness and arthritis and splints and all the other issues has more to do with the general lack of proper legging up and maintenance than it does with whether or not the horse gets turned out. Ignorance is far more detrimental to horses than lack of turnout.

[Thomas_1]

Thomas,
If a bunch of typical TB's were thrown out barefoot to fend for themselves in the highlands of Connemara, or say the Shetland Isles for a few years, how would they fare?
As well as the local ponies?
Katy I've not the faintest idea. Do you want me to go open the gates ? ;)

Seriously I've had t/b's all my life and my parents before me. I was brought up in the North Yorkshire Moors - not exactly known for fantastic weather and its a lot of bog! Ours were always out unless they were being groomed to exercise, hunt and race

And I'm now in the Cheviots. Mine are all in the main unclipped, unrugged and out. I've currently got 11 unshod and 2 of those are t/b's. This year has been relatively mild and I've only given hard feed about 10 days so far.

However all mine are in work so not just "thrown out"

Did you know that Darley Arabian escaped and ran the North Yorkshire Moors for many months having his way with farmer's mares before he was recaptured and taken back to Thomas Darley.

[lstevenson]

This is a really interesting discussion. My opinion is that it is a combination of many things. Such as the more you know sometimes the more trouble you have, you know how they say ignorance is bliss. Like in the case of ulcers, which are the latest fad.

Do hard working horses have more ulcers now than they did many years ago? I doubt it. But thanks to Pharmaceutical companies and advertising, everybody thinks their horse has them. Years ago the same horses that actually do have them now may have still had them, but we would not even know because nobody was thinking about ulcers.

And yes, I think that as a rule horses are kept in too much and fed too much grain. And that may also be contributing to colic and ulcers. My top horse lived outside 24/7 for most of his 18 years and I have always tried to feed as little grain as possible. And touch wood, he has never coliced or shown any sign of ulcers in his whole life. And he has worked very hard in his life, first as a racehorse, and then Eventing to the top levels. So there may be something to the poster who said to turn them out, cut the grain, and work them hard! It certainly works for me.

I know when I was younger I used to be pretty paranoid about protecting my horses legs. They were always wrapped when overnight in a stall, booted for turnout, inspected carefully everyday, rubbed, linimented, ect. And the joke was those of us who did that, seemed to have even more leg problems and injuries than other boarders who never even looked at their horses legs. The ones who just came, rode them hard, and put them away. And their horse's legs were tight and tough. There seemed to be some real truth to this, so I slowly changed the way I over protected their legs. Nowadays I almost never wrap or liniment unless I have an actual injury that I am working on. And they do seem to be tougher.

And it is probably true that we have bred hardiness out of modern horses to some degree, especially in some breeds. If that's true then it will only get worse in the years to come. I doubt if breeders will change their criteria from movement and ability to hardiness. They will keep breeding what sells, and buyers and breeders alike often give very little thought to hardiness as a quality that should be considered.

[LookinSouth]

I also think "arthritis" is a disorder that is MASSIVELY overdiagnosed, usually by owners without benefit of X-rays or even a vet exam. Not all lameness is joint related, and not all sore joints, even, are "arthritic", strictly speaking.

Well this I do agree with. My horse tends to have issues with muscle soreness rather than "arthritis" eventhough when others have observed him when he had one his muscle soreness spells everything from legend to adequan and hock injections were suggested ;) None of this by my vet though.

I still firmly believe regular and ample turnout IS a huge contributor to overall joint health and well being for horses in general.

[hey101]

My horse lives out 24/7 and it is rare he chooses to stand in his run- in whether it be sprinkling, pouring rain or a blizzard.

When we first moved into our own place, I was most familiar with the traditional 8- 12 hrs of turnout, remainder in stall management scheme. I evolved over about two years to a 24/7 management with three stalls set up as a run-in that opened up onto our drylot where there was an auto-waterer (among other things, besides being better for them, it was MUCH less work for me and a lot cheaper with significantly reduced bedding costs).

Anyway I quickly noticed that the only time the horses were in the run-in was when it was mildly warm on up to the blazing heat of summer (and then they basically kept themselves inside from early dawn to well after dark).

In all other weather- rain, snow, bitter cold, even bitter cold and windy- for the most part they stayed outside. I figured hey, if they weren't worried about it, why should I be? the only time I would decide I knew better than them was if a thunderstorm with lightning rolled through- quite a few times I was running out to the pasture to bring them in when they quite happily would have ridden out the lighting in the middle of an open field- on metal shoes! :eek::no:

[LookinSouth]

And yes, I think that as a rule horses are kept in too much and fed too much grain. And that may also be contributing to colic and ulcers. My top horse lived outside 24/7 for most of his 18 years and I have always tried to feed as little grain as possible. And touch wood, he has never coliced or shown any sign of ulcers in his whole life. And he has worked very hard in his life, first as a racehorse, and then Eventing to the top levels. So there may be something to the poster who said to turn them out, cut the grain, and work them hard! It certainly works for me.

I know when I was younger I used to be pretty paranoid about protecting my horses legs. They were always wrapped when overnight in a stall, booted for turnout, inspected carefully everyday, rubbed, linimented, ect. And the joke was those of us who did that, seemed to have even more leg problems and injuries than other boarders who never even looked at their horses legs. The ones who just came, rode them hard, and put them away. And their horse's legs were tight and tough. There seemed to be some real truth to this, so I slowly changed the way I over protected their legs. Nowadays I almost never wrap or liniment unless I have an actual injury that I am working on. And they do seem to be tougher.

.

Great points and I agree wholeheartedly. I too don't believe in "babying" my horses legs and this belief has served me well. He lives out 24/7. I liniment his legs pretty regularly before a ride (lightly) but I never, NEVER wrap unless it is for a an injury. I haven't wrapped this horse in over 2 years if my memory serves me correctly!:winkgrin:
At almost 17 my horse has some of the cleanest legs I've seen and has never been off or lame due to leg puffiness etc...His legs are never puffy and he works on all sorts of footing at a variety of paces 4 to 5 days a week year round. I am careful not to over jump him though. We keep jumping to a minimum; pretty much only at lessons. That's another issue I think contributes to some of the issues horses have these days....overjumping.

[hey101]

I know when I was younger I used to be pretty paranoid about protecting my horses legs. They were always wrapped when overnight in a stall, booted for turnout, inspected carefully everyday, rubbed, linimented, ect. And the joke was those of us who did that, seemed to have even more leg problems and injuries than other boarders who never even looked at their horses legs. The ones who just came, rode them hard, and put them away. And their horse's legs were tight and tough. There seemed to be some real truth to this, so I slowly changed the way I over protected their legs. Nowadays I almost never wrap or liniment unless I have an actual injury that I am working on. And they do seem to be tougher.



Lstevenson, I have also gone this direction with my horses' legs. I still check them over carefully when I am grooming, but I have done away with polo wraps, splint boots, bell boots, liniment after a workout, etc. And most foxhunters seem to eschew boots for the hours of hard riding and jumping they do. I don't even put boots on for stadium schooling, although I do for XC. (For a competition I still put boots on for stadium, but that's mostly because I found a gorgeous set of leather Dover fleece-lined open-fronts and ankle boots for a killler price!)

Knock on wood, they both have very good legs!

[LookinSouth]

Of course wild horses don't have humans breaking and riding them as 2YO's, they don't tote the weight of a saddle and a rider at any time in their lives ... I think the issues with lameness and arthritis and splints and all the other issues has more to do with the general lack of proper legging up and maintenance than it does with whether or not the horse gets turned out. Ignorance is far more detrimental to horses than lack of turnout.


Then how would you explain arthritis in stalled horses that are NEVER ridden, are pretty much just broke for ground handling for breeding or are essentially someone's expensive pet?

Of course breaking at 2 isn't doing any favors in that department. But lets say every other factor is in order (horse broke at 4) and there is no other logical explanation as to why 6, 7,8 year old horses are dealing with arthritis.

And I tend to be of the school of thought that lack of turnout IS ignorance just as much as proper legging up, maintenance and breaking at a sufficient age.

[pintopiaffe]

I *definitely* agree that some situations warrant stalling! And that is darn INconvinient for me. Stalls are NOT for ME. But I had a hard keeper former show mare who did best on not-full turnout.

Sometimes the youngsters need a few hours inside to really sleep well once their Mommas aren't there to watch over them any more. In the heat of the summer, mine are often in under a fan for the worst part of the day--not for heat (though it helps) but because the dang bugs are so horrible.

I'll hold that the *horse's* welfare has to come first. Not human convinience. Regardless of that meaning in or out or both... what is best for THAT horse at THAT time?

[LookinSouth]

I *definitely* agree that some situations warrant stalling! And that is darn INconvinient for me. Stalls are NOT for ME. But I had a hard keeper former show mare who did best on not-full turnout.

Sometimes the youngsters need a few hours inside to really sleep well once their Mommas aren't there to watch over them any more. In the heat of the summer, mine are often in under a fan for the worst part of the day--not for heat (though it helps) but because the dang bugs are so horrible.

I'll hold that the *horse's* welfare has to come first. Not human convinience. Regardless of that meaning in or out or both... what is best for THAT horse at THAT time?

I certainly will be the first toagree that stalls have their time and place and are neccessary in *certain* cases. My own horse DOES have a stall and it is used once a month or so ;)
But I know horse owners that have admittedly said they DO NOT want their horses turned out because
a.) their afraid their going to get hurt
b.) they don't want to have to go out and get said horse out for the field for their ride in the early afternoon so horsey only goes out for ~ 1 hour per day. They prefer said horse be in the barn in the afternoon when they come to ride. And I'm not talking about summer time in the deep south either where inside MAY be more comfortable.

You'd be surprised just how common this mentality is.

I just recently had a dressage trainer tell me that they turn out for about 4 hours a day and that is ALOT for a dressage barn (in our area at least) :eek: Now I know why my horse is a wingnut in a stall; I suspect he spent most of his life in one.

[Dianna]

I, myself, have not seen a case of arthritis in a young horse that was never ridden but only stalled ... I might say that perhaps it is more genetic ... we have children that get arthritis early on in life, and it has nothing to do with overwork or lack of exercise.

I think the comment lack of turnout is ignorance is beyond rude. The simple fact of it is, people do the best they can. I agree that show horses need exercise and turnout and horse time but unfortunately in many areas of the country this simply isn't possible .. so again I ask, should the people who cannot afford their own horse properties or cannot find barns that have horses out 24/7 get rid of their horses or stop owning horses?

All this chest beating and bravato about how much better one way is (i.e. out 24/7) serve no useful purpose. The reality is, as the years go by there will be fewer and fewer options for many horse owners and either there will be fewer horses with homes or the species will adapt, as they have done over and over again.

Management with the situation you have at hand is where the research should focus ... what can people who cannot give their horses full time turnout do to offset this ... since we don't live in a perfect world when it comes to horse management and the world will keep getting less and less perfect, we need to focus on management techniques that fall within the realm of reality for many horse owners and their horses.

[Sannois]

I think she's nailed it.

I also think Buddyroo hit the nail on the head.~ HAve thought that way for years. In fact my coming 20 TB is far more sound and healthy looking since he has been out of a boarding barn. This spring so he will have friends I am moving him to a barn with pasture board. No more stalls for him, he likes to come and go as he pleases.

[War Admiral]

I've had to tinker with her feed to get the right combination, but the more forage, less grain rule works wonderfully.

Did I say I disagreed with that at any point?? The reason I'm having such a tough time with HRH this year is b/c there IS no forage. I'm literally down to having to ride or drive him 3 miles down the road, hop off, unhitch, put his halter on him, and graze him in roadside ditches for 2-3 hours. And even the patches of grass there are going dry...

I'm not by any means unfamiliar with or opposed to the KISS rule. Miss Penny is a *very* easy keeper and is treated accordingly. She has good, tough, well-formed feet with walls of iron; she goes barefoot. There is no reason on God's green earth to put shoes on that mare (she does light flatwork only), so I don't. Her feeding regimen is: 1 scoop TC Senior a.m./p.m., 2 flakes of hay per day, soaked alfalfa cubes. Period. She does fine. Both horses are on 10 hours' turnout in a HUGE pasture every day, rain or shine.

So I've got one horse who is a maintenance nightmare and one who's an air fern. They EACH get what they need. The type of program I have issue with is a program that *doesn't* tailor to the needs of specific horses.

[ProzacPuppy]

Regarding TBs - It is my opinion that there is a vast difference between the Irish/English TBs and the garden variety American TB. The Irish/English TBs tend to be bigger boned and hardier (not always but in general), as do the Australian bred TBs.

With regard to the breeding of American TBs I think that alot of farms breed primarily for speed. My horse's sire was known to be extremely tempermental and hot but a very good runner. My horse inherited his sire's personality and I'm sure many of his other progeny inherited as well. My TB's bloodlines run to Display and Man O'War 12 times in 5 generations. And the horse is from a good Kentucky breeding farm/Keeneland yearling etc. If there were any genetic negatives in that bloodline (Fair Play) then it would surely be magnified in my horse.

I don't think my horse is that different from many "average" american TBs.

He is also a horse that will stand and stare at the barn after being turned out for a few hours, demanding to be brought in to play with his automatic waterer and to lie down in his deeply bedded stall. He just feels more comfortable in his stall. (Most of my dogs feel more comfortable in their crate than sleeping "in the open" (on the carpet or on the couch).

All animals are individuals.

That said I still think the "hothouse flower" mentality comes in large part from the emotional and financial investment that people have in their horses.

[deltawave]

He is also a horse that will stand and stare at the barn after being turned out for a few hours

This is behavioral rather than due to temperament, I think. They can learn to be "outside" horses just like they can learn to be "inside" horses if given the opportunity. :)

[LookinSouth]

This is behavioral rather than due to temperament, I think. They can learn to be "outside" horses just like they can learn to be "inside" horses if given the opportunity. :)

Agreed. I had a friend take his horse camping overnight for the first time this summer. Both him and trainer of show barn where he boards were convinced the horse would panic and NOT handle being out well at all overnight.Turns out the horse did GREAT (and he is the nervous TB type). All the other horses were used to that setting, they all were happy to be out and about grazing 24/7 and this horse fed off their attitudes and adapted just fine. Both trainer and owner were quite surprised how well he handled being out 24/7.

[LookinSouth]

.

I think the comment lack of turnout is ignorance is beyond rude. The simple fact of it is, people do the best they can. I agree that show horses need exercise and turnout and horse time but unfortunately in many areas of the country this simply isn't possible .. so again I ask, should the people who cannot afford their own horse properties or cannot find barns that have horses out 24/7 get rid of their horses or stop owning horses?

.

Yes dogs enjoy sleeping in their crates. Yes some horses would prefer sleeping in their stalls. Stalling overnight for a few hours I don't think is terribly detrimental. Stalling 20 to 24 hours a day? Sorry, I DO think that is ignorance whether one finds it rude or not.
Would you keep your dog crated for 20 to 24 hours per day?

[Dianna]

Ok, then I ask you (again) it is easy to say bad, bad, bad - but what is the solution? If you are going to tell the horse population that doesn't have the access to turnout that they should (and I agree more turnout is better) ... get rid of their horses?

As it is there are too many horses and not enough people willing to give them homes ... so what is your suggestion - your solution?

These conversations are great for making those who can feel so much better about themselves, but they do little to help that portion of the horse world who can't quite provide the exact care they would ilke to.

[JHUshoer20]

I, myself, have not seen a case of arthritis in a young horse that was never ridden but only stalled ... I might say that perhaps it is more genetic ... we have children that get arthritis early on in life, and it has nothing to do with overwork or lack of exercise.
You'll not often see it in any young horse. It takes years as it does for most people. Put one on a concrete floor though and sure as God wrote it on a rock.....

I think the comment lack of turnout is ignorance is beyond rude. The simple fact of it is, people do the best they can. I agree that show horses need exercise and turnout and horse time but unfortunately in many areas of the country this simply isn't possible .. so again I ask, should the people who cannot afford their own horse properties or cannot find barns that have horses out 24/7 get rid of their horses or stop owning horses?
Put more effort into finding a better place. If boarders demanded their horses be put out they would be. People treat you and your horse precisely the way you LET them.

Management with the situation you have at hand is where the research should focus ... what can people who cannot give their horses full time turnout do to offset this ... since we don't live in a perfect world when it comes to horse management and the world will keep getting less and less perfect, we need to focus on management techniques that fall within the realm of reality for many horse owners and their horses.
And what might that be?

Majority does not rule when it comes to doing wrong. Horse people need to quit bunching up into herds and following along with their friends. A little free and independent thought would go a long way here.
George

[Thomas_1]

I, myself, have not seen a case of arthritis in a young horse that was never ridden but only stalled ... I might say that perhaps it is more genetic ... So you think that all secondary joint disease is genetic???? WRONG!
we have children that get arthritis early on in life, and it has nothing to do with overwork or lack of exercise. Which form of arthritis do you specifically mean? Do you even know there are different sorts?

I think the comment lack of turnout is ignorance is beyond rude. The simple fact of it is, people do the best they can. I agree that show horses need exercise and turnout and horse time but unfortunately in many areas of the country this simply isn't possible .. so again I ask, should the people who cannot afford their own horse properties or cannot find barns that have horses out 24/7 get rid of their horses or stop owning horses? Well it might surprise you to know but owning horses is NOT compulsory and its NOT a god given right. Its just a lifestyle choice. Its not a case of have to have the designer clothes, car, fancy coffee maker oh..... and I mustn't forget the horse.

All this chest beating and bravato about how much better one way is (i.e. out 24/7) serve no useful purpose. The reality is, as the years go by there will be fewer and fewer options for many horse owners and either there will be fewer horses with homes or the species will adapt, as they have done over and over again. I don't think anyone was actually saying they needed to be out all day every day all and every day of the week and every year of their lives.

But the reality is there AREN'T fewer options for horse owners and horses are suffering because they're stuck in inappropriate environments. If you can't provide them what they need, then just don't have one! Its dead simple

Management with the situation you have at hand is where the research should focus ... what can people who cannot give their horses full time turnout do to offset this ... There's been a mass of research and evidence relating to animal husbandry and management for horses.
since we don't live in a perfect world when it comes to horse management and the world will keep getting less and less perfect, we need to focus on management techniques that fall within the realm of reality for many horse owners and their horses. For goodness sakes. Its a lifestyle choice. You don't HAVE to have one. We're talking about an animal not running water and electricity!

[Thomas_1]

Ok, then I ask you (again) it is easy to say bad, bad, bad - but what is the solution? If you are going to tell the horse population that doesn't have the access to turnout that they should (and I agree more turnout is better) ... get rid of their horses?

As it is there are too many horses and not enough people willing to give them homes ... so what is your suggestion - your solution? Have you not realised that one of the reasons why there's "too many horses" is because there's a market for them.

The increase in "hobby-horses" that are just a lifestyle choice means that the market is flooded.

These conversations are great for making those who can feel so much better about themselves, but they do little to help that portion of the horse world who can't quite provide the exact care they would ilke to. Ahhh didumms .... we can't possibly have the owner that can't provide what the horse needs feeling shamed or guilty or uncomfortable.

I'll say it again only this time I'll type it slowly.

O W N I N G A H O R S E IS N O T C O M P U L S O R Y!

[LostFarmer]

Horses especially young horses need to be out. I have heard over and over that you can never trot a horse on hard ground or they will _____ . Fill in the blank. I have found that animals slowly brought into work and then used are quite sound.

Breeding. It used to be that those that weren't fit never made it to the point of being breed. We are so concerned with trait X that we never look at trait Y and Z. Think color breeders. The old phrase form follows function applies. The horses that lasted were the ones that reproduced and you had a functional animals. The size of the head wasn't a consideration until after the quality of the feet and legs.

Use and feed we feed horses too well and use them too little. VERY few actually get used enough to need the extra feed.

LF

[Auventera Two]

Then how would you explain arthritis in stalled horses that are NEVER ridden, are pretty much just broke for ground handling for breeding or are essentially someone's expensive pet?

Of course breaking at 2 isn't doing any favors in that department. But lets say every other factor is in order (horse broke at 4) and there is no other logical explanation as to why 6, 7,8 year old horses are dealing with arthritis.

And I tend to be of the school of thought that lack of turnout IS ignorance just as much as proper legging up, maintenance and breaking at a sufficient age.

You answered your own question. STALLED.

How strong and healthy would your joints and bones be if you lived your entire life in a 10x12 room?

And sorry but stalling a horse 20 to 24 hours a day *IS* plain ignorance and shows a total disregard for the animal. Just because it's convenient for YOU is no excuse. Pay the money to board at a different place, or sell the animal. Everyone wants a horseie but no one wants the responsibility that goes with it.

I drive past a western pleasure show barn every day on my way to work. There is NO turnout anywhere. Not even a single little paddock. There is one Appy that is turned out into their outdoor arena every day around lunchtime. When I go to lunch, I see him down on his knees with his whole head and neck under the fence reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaching for a single blade of grass or weed. I almost never see that horse up on all four feet.

So I bet this owner would say "My horse has arthritis in his knees and I just don't know why. I mean, he's turned out for 2 hours every day, without fail. Sheesh, must be bad DNA."

Gee - think about it. It's not normal or healthy for a horse to be down on his knees attempting to graze under the arena fence during his "turnout time." It absolutely amazes me of the unacceptable conditions that some horses are kept in.

Obviously there are exceptions to everything. Some horses may be kept in certain conditions for very good reasons. For instance, my friend who raises minis keeps them in small paddocks. These Minis do not have the gumption to run and gallop like say a young TB would. Her Minis are exercised though to keep them in show shape. They trot behind an ATV of some type. But they have no inclination to run and roam like the big horses do. There's exceptions to everything.

[Tory Relic]

Did I say I disagreed with that at any point?? The reason I'm having such a tough time with HRH this year is b/c there IS no forage. I'm literally down to having to ride or drive him 3 miles down the road, hop off, unhitch, put his halter on him, and graze him in roadside ditches for 2-3 hours. And even the patches of grass there are going dry...



I did not mean to imply that you were against less grain/more forage. I was commenting on my program for my own horse. Your posts continually suggest that all Thoroughbreds are as delicate as yours seems to be. It just isn't so, in my experience.

I'm sorry that the forage situation is so awful where you are. I'm in South Carolina, and it's been no picnic here, either. I've been feeding lots of beet pulp and while hay is much more expensive than usual, it is available. I was fortunate to get in on a group purchase of hay shipped in from out of state and get some at a decent price. I do realize how lucky I am that this occurred.

[camohn]

Obviously there are exceptions to everything. Some horses may be kept in certain conditions for very good reasons. For instance, my friend who raises minis keeps them in small paddocks. These Minis do not have the gumption to run and gallop like say a young TB would. Her Minis are exercised though to keep them in show shape. They trot behind an ATV of some type. But they have no inclination to run and roam like the big horses do. There's exceptions to everything.
It's OT but....Boy I wish our mini thought this! I have no idea the general traits of Minis...but ours got renamed Houdini for his increadible feats of escape...amazing what he could climb over, under or through. If he even stayed on the farm doing this it would have been OK but he had a case of wanderlust in the neighborhood too. And of course he had a particular fondness for the lady's yard that was afraid of horses....even Mini's! He had to be rehomed to a place with Mini proof fence. No electric tape (he didn't care if he was zapped), no Centaur flex fence (which he could throw himself against to bend enough to squeeze through), no little gaps under it at the streambed (which he could squeeze under) and nothing he could climb like a mountain goat!! He was the biggest character I ever met. He would escape, get into the stallion's paddock and taunt him by eating his food. (The stallion was good with other horses except when it came to sharing his grain.) The little bugger would stand there until the stallion was almost upon him then squirm under the fence and thumb his nose at him....nah nah you can't get me over here.......

[Dianna]

JHUSHOER1,

With regard to arthritis in young horses, the poster's comment was specific to young horses already with ... of course arthritis doesn't happen over night, except in the case of RA which the damage can come on at a fairly significant speed (in humans). I am all too aware of the varying types of arthritis and its triggers.

I cannot get beyond the level of pure self righteousness. Sure people just buy a horse and put it at whatever dive they can, without any thought. I was lucky enough to when I boarded out not care about being "liked" and was able to insist on what I wanted. Not everybody is that lucky. I was then even luckier to acquire my own place ... is it as nice as what you must have, based on your comments, probably not .. but it suffices, the horses all do well, are happy and content. Unfortunately not all people are that lucky.


The question about focusing on what we can do for the horses that have less than ideall situations was a point where research could be done ... I have no idea what that might be, thus the need for research based on what many horses are required to adapt to.

Nobody said the majority rules, but the reality is, the world is shrinking. I suspect most horse people don't bunch up for any other reason than it is what they can do. One of the biggest problems is that many horse people sit back and watch the horse community around them be squeezed out ... they take little active participation - politically - to secure land for the horse industry. Why? I have no idea. I guess it is easier to critisize and pat one's self on their back rather than working to salvage what we have left and work with what we are limited to.

George, please explain what free independent thought is. You sure do like to be right, but you offer no valid solutions to the issues at hand.

[Dianna]

Thomas1,

Yes I am well too aware of the varying types of arthritis and that which attributes to its formation ... are you?

No, there is not a market for too many horses. There are too many people with a mare or worse, a colt that should be gelded but hey, maybe we can breed them. I have often said that horse owners should be required to have licenses (just as trainers at the track do), that if it were harder to get a horse or to hang a shingle as a boarding facility, that perhaps things might not have evolved into what it did ... but those doors have long since shut and the horse world is what it is.

So, who shouldn't be allowed to have horses? Who do you refer to so smartly as "hobby horse" owners? The largest area of infractions of your belief as to what is best for horses happens to be one of the industries that had a profit during the Depression ... the horse racing industry ... so are they the hobby horse owners? I don't think so.

I think big business has done more to hurt the industry - the breeders breeding and pushing horses along at way too early of an age to get them sold to make room for the next group. The "market" is not the horses who are priced high, but the horses that are priced for the quick sale ... the rescue horses ... etc.

BTW, who says that what we believe is best is truly what the horse needs.

Finally, I'll say it slowly and hopefully so you can understand .... with the same frame of mind, courtesy and respect that you posted your words of wisdom to me:

THE WORLD ISN'T PERFECT.

IT DIDN'T GET THIS WAY OVERNIGHT.

INSTEAD OF STANDING ON YOUR SOAPBOX MAKING YOURSELF FEEL BETTER ABOUT HOW MUCH BETTER YOU ARE THAN HOBBY HORSE OWNERS (AND WOW THAT DESIGNATION RELFECTS AN INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF DISRESPECT AND EGO THAT IT IS ACTUALLY SAD)

WHY NOT TRY FOCUS ON WORKABLE SOLUTIONS THAT CONTRIBUTE IN A POSITIVE WAY TO THE PRESENT WORLD.

[deltawave]

OK, then, so what ARE some workable solutions?

[Tory Relic]

INSTEAD OF STANDING ON YOUR SOAPBOX MAKING YOURSELF FEEL BETTER ABOUT HOW MUCH BETTER YOU ARE THAN HOBBY HORSE OWNERS (AND WOW THAT DESIGNATION RELFECTS AN INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF DISRESPECT AND EGO THAT IT IS ACTUALLY SAD)

WHY NOT TRY FOCUS ON WORKABLE SOLUTIONS THAT CONTRIBUTE IN A POSITIVE WAY TO THE PRESENT WORLD.

Um, I don't see the difference between "hobby" horse owner and "amateur" horse owner. There are many "hobby" farms that are not working farms in that they are not the owner's livelihood. The same for an "amateur" or "hobby" horse owner. We aren't making our living doing it -- which I refuse to do, as I do NOT want my horse to be subject to "earning her keep" in hard numbers. I've been on both sides of this, and I prefer the hobby/amateur side of it. This is not to say that I don't respect those who are making their living at it.

I think the distinction being made in this thread is that there are many people who are not thinking of their horse's welfare first, but whatever they get out of owning a horse. I agree with you that it is not only the "hobby/amateur" owners, but there is certainly a large number of people who choose to live near a city and keep horses in limited space. This creates problems for the horses. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

So--what do you think the solution is?

[Thomas_1]

Thomas1,

Yes I am well too aware of the varying types of arthritis and that which attributes to its formation ... are you? Thanks for asking. Yes. Indeed its why I took exception with what you were inferring.

No, there is not a market for too many horses. There are too many people with a mare or worse, a colt that should be gelded but hey, maybe we can breed them. If folks didn't want them, then just maybe they wouldn't be bred to potentially sell.

I have often said that horse owners should be required to have licenses (just as trainers at the track do), that if it were harder to get a horse or to hang a shingle as a boarding facility, that perhaps things might not have evolved into what it did ... but those doors have long since shut and the horse world is what it is. So you think folks should have licences to own but having suitable premises and turn out won't be a pre-requisite?? I'm still not getting you.

So, who shouldn't be allowed to have horses? If I ruled the world then anyone who didn't have the wit and wherewithall.

Who do you refer to so smartly as "hobby horse" owners? Anyone who owns a horse for leisure or pleasure as opposed to for business and livelihood.

BTW, who says that what we believe is best is truly what the horse needs. Well I know I'm right and it seems you think you're right ;)

Finally, I'll say it slowly and hopefully so you can understand .... with the same frame of mind, courtesy and respect that you posted your words of wisdom to me:

THE WORLD ISN'T PERFECT.

IT DIDN'T GET THIS WAY OVERNIGHT. You don't say! If you're trying to make a point, then I don't get your point. Is your point that anyone and everyone can own a horse because it happened by evolution rather than revolution? Is your point that because the world isn't perfect that its totally o.k. for folks to keep horses in a box with severely restricted turnout because they can't find somewhere with land? If so that's an odd point.

INSTEAD OF STANDING ON YOUR SOAPBOX MAKING YOURSELF FEEL BETTER ABOUT HOW MUCH BETTER YOU ARE THAN HOBBY HORSE OWNERS (AND WOW THAT DESIGNATION RELFECTS AN INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF DISRESPECT AND EGO THAT IT IS ACTUALLY SAD) A hobby horse is merely a horse used for leisure and pleasure. I'd suggest its you that has a bug up your ass and an ability to read what isn't being said.
WHY NOT TRY FOCUS ON WORKABLE SOLUTIONS THAT CONTRIBUTE IN A POSITIVE WAY TO THE PRESENT WORLD. You mean like educating folks into being aware that you don't HAVE to have a horse. And if you don't have land then just don't have one! And if you don't have money to pay someone with land, then you don't have to have one! And if you don't have one you can still ride and enjoy the experience by going somewhere that provides the service.

[millerra]

but I believe that all in all there are no horses standing around saying .. gee, I miss the good old days like when my grand daddy was young.

Yea. And as I was reading the thread I kept thinking that my horses are all saying "thank GOD we don't live at that Amish place just down the road. Those horses have to WORK - and stand tied outside to a buggy even when it's 90 degrees and the flies are OUTRAGEOUS".

[Chezzie]

I have many, many thoughts about this thread that I will refrain from expressing.

However, I do think it is a little ridiculous to give people cr*p about having "hobby horses" in this day and age. I would say the vast majority of the horses in the US are "hobby horses". We don't need them for transportation, farm work, etc. The reality is that our needs from our horses and our expectations of them has changed. And so our managment practices change. Things evolve. Time marches on.

And saying that if you don't have land you shouldn't have horses is not a solution to anything. It is laughable at best, and insulting at worst.

[hey101]

I think the distinction being made in this thread is that there are many people who are not thinking of their horse's welfare first, but whatever they get out of owning a horse. I agree with you that it is not only the "hobby/amateur" owners, but there is certainly a large number of people who choose to live near a city and keep horses in limited space. This creates problems for the horses. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

So--what do you think the solution is?

Alright, alright... I'll throw myself under a bus here. Since I was one of the chest-beaters crowing about how great I was that I had my horses on 24/7. (honestly I wasn't trying to sound sanctimonious with my previous posts- just commenting on how MY horses behaved in different weather conditions with where they chose to hang out)

Hubby and I moved to Orange County, California in July. I brought two of my horses with me (sold the other three), and took them from 4 acres of gorgeous 24/7 turnout in SE PA, to SoCal boarding which consists of a 24x24 pen. NO turnout other than what I provide for them in an arena.

It was VERY VERY VERY hard for me to leave my dream farm and move to California, especially because I knew what I was about to do to my horses wrt to the turnout thing. I cried the day we showed up at my new barn. BUT...the single contributing factor to me liking California as much as I do, is that EVERY SINGLE DAY, I showed up to the barn and my horses were RELAXED, HAPPY, and in general, JUST FINE.

I am at the barn 6 days a week (I aim for 7, but in reality with work, travel, etc, it works out to 6 days a week). If I can't get up there, I have them turned out or ridden for me. I've elminated all grain from their diets.

I fully acknowledge that I made a selfish choice and am keeping them at that barn because it is 4 miles from my house. I could keep them at a barn 90 miles away where they'd at least get 8 hours of daily turnout. I still stress about the no-turnout every single day. Honestly, even I didn't think they'd adapt as well as they have.

Do I realize, that even though their attitudes are great, that it's still a less- healthy lifestyle for them? Yes, of course I do. But I know my horses, I know how to take care of them, I've done and am doing everything I can think of to make the best of what I've got and still have my horses. My girls are in no way shape or form hothouse flowers! I have them on no special supplements, and they only see the vet (knock on wood) once a year. No special shoeing.

SO I've been on both sides of this debate, and very recently. There is no one answer.

[hey101]

I have many, many thoughts about this thread that I will refrain from expressing.



Hey, I want to hear them! Because I know you've been on both sides of this too! (and how, eh? ;))

Chezzie, you made me feel a lot better prior to us moving because of your experiences with your mare in AZ. Of course, I didn't REALLY believe you that my girls would probably be fine until I got here and saw for myself, but it was good to be at least hearing first-hand that it could be OK from someone else who had their horse(es) in the restricted-boarding type situation.

[LookinSouth]

I think the distinction being made in this thread is that there are many people who are not thinking of their horse's welfare first, but whatever they get out of owning a horse.

Precisely. I cannot find fault with the horse owner that has NO options for a barn with t/o within a 90 mile radius. I feel bad for those horses and owners but obviously these matters may not always be in their control. I do find fault with the horse owner that decides to keep their horse stalled for extended hours of the day when there ARE options of turnout; sometimes even at their very own barn simply for THEIR own convienience. But that's just my opinion.

[Dianna]

Chezzie - well said.

Thomas_1, it isn't worth my effort to try to make you understand anything beyond your own point of view. Enjoy your soapbox and rest comfortable in your beliefs that you are so much better than those members of the horse community who have to board out, and simply cannot have their horses out 24/7.

Not everybody has the luxury to choose where they live. When I left NY and moved to AZ, the time came that going back to NY was what I really wanted, but I had acquired several horses in addition to the ones I brought with me, and I could not afford to keep them in NY. So, I stayed in AZ with my horses (and no family). I don't board my horses out, I keep them home, so that I can handle things the way I want to. Despite all this, I don't begrudge anybody a horse just because it can't be out 24/7 or has to live in a boarding facility. I have seen many horses that I feel bad for that do live out 24/7 and are living the "good life" like their ancestors did.

However, I do begrude horses to so many professionals who are motivated by money and in promoting their own careers at the expense of the horses in their care and the trusting horse owners who look to them for guidance. My hat is off to the horse owner who despite all odds, does the best they can do for their horses in less than perfect situations, and manages to give their horse love and attention and a feeling of love and safety.

My idea behind licensing is that perhaps it might open people's eyes to the amount of work and money and aggravation that comes hand-in-hand with owning horses. It might keep a few "professionals" from hanging their shingles, it might keep a few breeders whose stock isn't really promoting a better future from breeding. Again, I don't agree with 24/7 for all horses, but I agree with your right to believe it is best and utilize it.

[LookinSouth]

Pay the money to board at a different place, or sell the animal. Everyone wants a horseie but no one wants the responsibility that goes with it.

.

The sad reality is they ARE paying top dollar to board a top notch facility WITH beautiful grass turnout. They just prefer that horsey stay in because they are either afraid the horse will hurt itself in turnout and so the horse will be clean and readily available when they come to ride.

This is the type of mentality that infuriates me.

[cartera45]

We have people at the barn where I board who blanket early in the year just because they don't want to deal with a dirty horse when they come up to ride. That's a personal choice that I wouldn't make. My horse is the only one owned by boarders now that isn't blanketed yet and she is a mud cake when I go up, but that just isn't a good enough reason for me. It's 65 here today and I don't know if the BM took all the blankets off or not before turnout or not. If not, I'll bet there are some sweaty horses in the field - but they're clean. I don't chastize the others at the barn for this - I just do what I do and they do what they do. Stuff just happens to horses. Two boarders lost horses this year to freaky pasture injuries and my horse suffered a life threatening injury while in her stall.

[TB Fan]

I have to agree that I think we are killing our horses with kindness. I rode and competed as a kid, left the horseworld and then came back to it as an adult. One thing that struck me was the plethora of supplements out there. I don't remember that when I was younger? You almost feel strange if your horse isn't on 2 or 3 supplments. And now it seems like the trend is to start them before any issues, as a preventative! That boggles my mind. I admit my two are on a joint supplement but they are 24 and 22 respectively. But the 24 year old is an OTTB with 10 years on the track and the other is a QH with documented navicular problems.

My OTTB liked to play the role of hot house flower initially, but in reality is practically indestcructible. He was blanketed and a stall baby when I first got him. Now he is literally his own "bear skin rug"! He loves going out to play with his buddies, is actually fat (easy keeper) and we have finally resolved any hoof problems with believe it or not, a simple addition of alfapha pellets with his morning feed. In the case of my TB, I think he just had to learn about being a horse again, and now he relishes it. My QH is the definition of easy keeper. The barn I am at now is not fancy and many would call it rough, but you look around and the horses are healthy and happy and not on a million supplements. I can't even tell you the last time a vet was out for an emergency call.

I am blessed with two beautiful, good boys who are enjoying life as horses!

[MistyBlue]

IMO...a responsisble horse owner (or *any* pet owner) balances what they can when it comes to the animals' welfare and ental and physical health.
This might not be 24/7 turnout...in many areas of this country it's just not possible. Nor...dare I type it out loud...necessary for the horses' health. Is it better? Depends on the horse. And the owner. Yes...and the owner. If a person is taking excellent care of their horse and not providing 24/7 turnout (and I don't mean graining it to death, blanketing for convenience, no turnout, etc) then who's to say that a different owner will take provide 24/7 turnout? In some states that might mean the owner has to market their 8-12 hour of turnout horse out of state because nobody else in their state has hufe pastures either.
Stating that if only people with what some believe is "optimum" care standards ever buy horses just doesn't work in real life. The equestrian industry would crumble withough those owners. Making owning horses pretty much impossible for everyone but a very select few. And that's not a worry for the owners as much as it is the horses...vut the horse owning population down to less than half of what it is now in this country and you lose tons of equine-necessary businesses...making horse ownership impossible for a huge percentage of those left with 50 acres of grass and 24/7 turnout.
I do think horses need a minimum amount of turnout in a big enough area to move freely...if I had to keep a horse stalled 20 hours per day or turned out in a 20x12 turnout then I personally would not own one. But...I do have 2 horses at home. They're out in winter from 7 am until 4 pm...stalled the rest of the time. Turnout consists of a 70/75x200 dirt paddock at this time. Am I somehow harming them? Ruining their health? I think not. Would I like 50 ares of grass that's nowhere near humans or roads so I could turn mine out 24/7? Sure, who wouldn't? If anyone has the $10 million that land in my state would cost I'm gladly accepting of a gift of that size. :D CT is very dense in horse ownership...removing any horses without 24/7 turnout on grazing land would eliminate about 50,000 of our 55,000 horses. What's the last 5,000 horses going to do for feed stores, farriers, vets, hay? Because removing 50,000 horses without 24/7 turnout from this state means 95% of those businesses would go out of business. The few left would need ridiculously high prices to compensate for the lost horses. Where would these horses go? Saying not to breed more doesn't wash...it'll never happen. If it were that easy then Miss Pole Dancing Crack Ho would stop pumping out an addicted baby every 15 minutes. If you're not going to stop it in humans...you're not going to stop it in animals. :winkgrin: Sure it's a great idea...so is fat free chocolate that tastes good and makes you lose weight when you eat it.

[pandorasboxx]

I used to board at a barn where one saddlebred mare stayed in ALL the time. NO turnout. Ever. She was pulled out of her stall maybe 2x a month to pogo around toting a great lump of a SS rider banging and jerking away. The owner was always irritated the mare was "naughty" and spent every session "tuning her up". When I inquired why the mare wasn't turned out, I was told she was a former saddleseat show horse and had never been turned out in her life--too valuable.

The mare was a crazy as a latrine rat. Go figure.


A friend of mine briefly served as a groom to top dressage rider and spent one winter in Wellington. She told me the horses were considered too valuable to be turned out and daily hand walking was substituted.

[deltawave]

I don't think you'll find many reasonably knowledgeable horse people who would DISAGREE that turnout is good, etc. We're all kind of preaching to the choir and we all acknowledge there are exceptions to EVERY rule of so-called "proper horse care".

To keep this from spiraling into a "my way is better than your way" battle, how about listing some of the things YOU (collectively) have learned to do better than what you did 10 years ago? What dogmas do YOU still cling to?

For me, I of course have gotten away from the "sweet feed" mentality that relative inexperience, ignorance and the lack of choices led me to feed it 10 years ago. I have been fortunate enough to build my own place and choose to give my horses access to 24/7 turnout. I try to pull their shoes EVERY fall, where I didn't used to.

I still cling to blankets. :) I still vaccinate on a very complete regimen, and am resistant to the idea that this may or may not be "correct" for all animals. I still feed sugar cubes. I throw cold water over hot horses, always have.

I wonder what we will think in 25 years about horsekeeping practices of 2008? :)

[hey101]

A friend of mine briefly served as a groom to top dressage rider and spent one winter in Wellington. She told me the horses were considered too valuable to be turned out and daily hand walking was substituted.

I would argue that Barbaro was considerably more valuable than any dressage horse, and yet Michael Matz turned him out.

OTOH, I visited the KY horse park last year, and there was a saddlebred stallion in the hall of champions whom they never turned out- because he would get scared and anxious and hurt himself. it's not that they didn't have TO available. It just wasn't the right option for this horse. Is he the product of his environment? Probably. If he'd been managed differently from the start as a young horse, I'm sure he could hang out in the back 40 all day and be happy as a clam. But too little, too late by the time he's kicking back his heels 20 years later in KY.

and by the arguments of some people on here, what about horses due to injury that need to be stalled for considerable lengths of time? Should people just start putting them down, rather than the 2- 4- 6- 12 months it might take to rehabilitiate them?

I'm very much a "turnout is best" kind of person. But I'm also not a black-and-white person- there are just too many variables with horses and lifestyles to say ONE WAY is the ONLY WAY.

[Lookout]

This is behavioral rather than due to temperament, I think. They can learn to be "outside" horses just like they can learn to be "inside" horses if given the opportunity. :)

I agree.

Especially if they have sources of stimulation in their turnouts, and are fed out there so no longer associate the barn with food.

[Lookout]

Ok, then I ask you (again) it is easy to say bad, bad, bad - but what is the solution? If you are going to tell the horse population that doesn't have the access to turnout that they should (and I agree more turnout is better) ... get rid of their horses?

As it is there are too many horses and not enough people willing to give them homes ... so what is your suggestion - your solution?

These conversations are great for making those who can feel so much better about themselves, but they do little to help that portion of the horse world who can't quite provide the exact care they would ilke to.

Suggest reading Jaime Jackson's Paddock Paradise which has lots of ideas on keeping horses occupied, stimulated and moving on small acreage.

[Lori]

This is a very interesting topic; I've often wondered the same thing. In fact, I've wondered the same thing about humans. These days our reproductive success has less and less to do with our suitability to the environment -- what are the long-term reprecussions?

I think we're facing a similar problem with our horses. Now that horses are no longer necessary for work, their reproductive success is dictated by nothing more than our whims. And we've proven in this country that our whims can ruin a working breed in short order.


You beat me to it!!! Perfectly put. I have seen this downfall in the horse/pony and dog world. I won't get started on humans. LOL

[Lookout]

Put more effort into finding a better place. If boarders demanded their horses be put out they would be.

Absolutely true, in my experience. For the most part the barn is a convenience for the rider. Get to the barn in the cold or when it's getting dark and you don't have to trudge down to the paddock for your horse. And so on, and so on. My horse is one of the few at my barn out full time (because I insist on it) and it's common knowledge that other boarders think I'm being 'mean' to him by making him stay out there instead of a 'nice cozy stall'. Furthermore, my horse is always available to some riders to be ridden (so that he gets more exercise) because theirs frequently are unrideable for one reason or another (such as lameness, arthritis, bad attitudes, etc.), and they just won't be bothered to go get him from outside.

[deltawave]

I think another thing that's changing is the notion that a horse with a suspensory, bowed tendon, etc. needs to be on stall rest for 6 or 9 months. That's another bit of dogma I'd LOVE to see dispelled.

[Lookout]

I think another thing that's changing is the notion that a horse with a suspensory, bowed tendon, etc. needs to be on stall rest for 6 or 9 months. That's another bit of dogma I'd LOVE to see dispelled.

Me too!

[Dianna]

Lookout, great suggestion about the book. I have not read it, but apparently somebody is trying to address the issues rather than just making blanket statements. Perhaps this might be a good book that people can give as gifts to new horse owners.

To me the most important thing any horse owner can know is that nothing is black and white. No all horses can be fed a certain way, worked a certain way or rehabbed a certain way. Not all bows or suspensories need to be treated a certain way and that means stall bounded or not ... it depends on the individual damage which has been done. Not all horses need shoes, but not all horses can or should go barefoot.

While in most aspects of our lives, horses simply aren't a cut and dry management issue at any juncture.

[Druid Acres]

As the owner of an IR horse, this topic interests me. I agree that there are multiple factors at work in the apparently declining health of the horse population - loss of recreational land, too little turnout, too much feed, veterinary advances, etc.

However, I also see a distressing correlation between the rise in diabetic people in the general population and a rise in the number of IR horses. With people, you can point to sedentary jobs, video games, too much soda, etc. But that does not apply to horses.

I see something much more insidious at work. I think that many species have reached a 'toxic threshold' for pollutants and we are seeing the result. Pollution (especially heavy metals) may not directly cause metabolic issues, but may throw the genetic switch for them, or contribute in other ways or combine with other factors.

Sorry for the gloom, but I calls it like I sees it. :)

[hey101]

To me the most important thing any horse owner can know is that nothing is black and white. No all horses can be fed a certain way, worked a certain way or rehabbed a certain way. Not all bows or suspensories need to be treated a certain way and that means stall bounded or not ... it depends on the individual damage which has been done. Not all horses need shoes, but not all horses can or should go barefoot.

While in most aspects of our lives, horses simply aren't a cut and dry management issue at any juncture.

Well said. Nothing irritates me more than narrow-minded people who think their way is the only way. No matter what the subject is- horses, religion, etc.

DW- not only do I hose hot horses, but ~gasp~! I also let them DRINK water! the horrors! :lol:

[Tory Relic]

To keep this from spiraling into a "my way is better than your way" battle, how about listing some of the things YOU (collectively) have learned to do better than what you did 10 years ago? What dogmas do YOU still cling to?

For me, I of course have gotten away from the "sweet feed" mentality that relative inexperience, ignorance and the lack of choices led me to feed it 10 years ago. I have been fortunate enough to build my own place and choose to give my horses access to 24/7 turnout. I try to pull their shoes EVERY fall, where I didn't used to.

I keep mine barefoot right now because she is in very light work. I think that in her situation, it's better for her. If I put her in harder work and felt (with input from the farrier -- we have discussed this) she needed shoes, she'd get shoes. I'm neither for or against shoes, but I AM for tinkering as little as possible with the horse's natural state. However, the minute I start riding her, I AM changing that, so I have to care for her accordingly. I've only been doing this barefoot thing for the past four years.

I still cling to blankets.

So do I. Actually, it's kind of a new thing with me, with this particular horse. She was in and out in her prior situations. She came down here and got THOROUGHLY confused about having to grow I winter coat. When they stand shivering, you have to do something, so I've blanketed her for the past four winters, given she is out all of the time. It is done according to the weather, which changes here like the wind. We just came of a cold snap where the water I dug out of tubs didn't melt laying on the ground through the day. This is very unusual here. Today, it's in the 70's and there is NO ICE anywhere outside the ice box. I'm out in my shirtsleeves instead of bundled up in a sweatshirt and a jacket. So the horse is dressed accordingly. She is growing a better coat than she did at first and could probably have less clothing, but I can't seem to stop.

I still vaccinate on a very complete regimen, and am resistant to the idea that this may or may not be "correct" for all animals. I still feed sugar cubes. I throw cold water over hot horses, always have.

I vaccinate less stringently than I did when my horse was boarded, but there are some that I think are necessary.

I KNOW intellectually that throwing cold water over hot horses has been shown to be the best way. I still cringe at the idea. However, if I thought my horse was in danger of heat stroke, I'd bite down and do it. :eek:

I feed peppermints, which is peppermint flavored sugar. ;)

In the past ten years, I've gone from feeding my horse every single supplement I thought she MIGHT need to going back to feeding a hoof supplement.

When I was working with race horses 25 or so years ago, no one gave so many supplements to these horses. Electrolytes were given as needed. I keep those around, too, just in case, because it gets hot down here and it's sometimes needed.

With training devices, leg wraps and the like, I ask myself why am I using them? Afraid the horse will hurt herself? Then slow down the training so her legs can catch up. I try to think out which is for my convenience and which is for the horse's welfare. Sometimes, the risk/benefit of what I'm doing weighs heavier one way than another.

I think the key is to really pay attention to what you are doing with your horse and why, rather than thinking like the herd. THEY are herd animals, we aren't supposed to be.

[JHUshoer20]

George, please explain what free independent thought is. You sure do like to be right, but you offer no valid solutions to the issues at hand.
Thought I did that before.

You were talking like choice of barn was a financial issue. For many I'm sure it is. Ironically enough though the most expensive places have the least amount of turnout so that shouldn't be an issue.

Some are talking 24/7 out. Thats ok but not necessary either. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. They can go out in day and in at night or vice verse.

Sound healthy horses in 24/7 is unnacceptable. Especially for reasons like too lazy to catch or afraid of a scratch or whatever.

Anybody who can buy a 6 figure horse can buy a 10 cent band-aid.
George

[Katy Watts]

However, I also see a distressing correlation between the rise in diabetic people in the general population and a rise in the number of IR horses. With people, you can point to sedentary jobs, video games, too much soda, etc. But that does not apply to horses.


But I think it does. Not enough exercise, too much sugar in grass and 'feeds'. Google 'sugar grass' and look at all the articles directed towards increasing sugar content of grass for cows and sheep.
I've heard the speils about 'environmental illness' and I don't buy it. The 'cure' for EI ends up being trace minerals. I do think that trace mineral deficiency enters into metabolic problems, but blaming it on petro-chemical, industrial environmental toxins is just for dramatic affect.
The lady who sells that EI crap told me neighbor kids foundered her horse feeding it a whole package of cookies. So she sells minerals to 'de-tox' and pushes the concept of enviromental illness ???? It's about too much sugar. But I for one can say unequivacally, there is no income to be made by telling people to not feed their horses so much sugar.
Katy

[Mozart]

What am I doing differently now vs ten years ago?

1. I wrap less. Way less. And I don't wrap for trailering anymore unless there are other horses in the trailer.
2. I use electrolytes in summer
3. I am fussier about my hay
4. Horses in my home barn (I also board out my riding horse, can't control what happens there) go out from 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m. They used to come in at 6:00 p.m. Now I am less interested in mucking, so out as much as possible. Weatherwise, they have shelter so they only come in for lightning. If they want to stand outside in the rain, so be it.

[hey101]

A2, that was an interesting post. And, in the past few months, having had time to reflect on the things I've learned about my horses' lifestyle Then vs. Now, and remembering how I did things at my own place, I had already come to the conclusion, based on the horses' own behavior while at liberty, that if and when I'm back at my own place I would put them back on a stalled-during-the-day situation for the summer months. For fall through late spring, I'd do the 24/7 TO thing. But the horses VERY clearly told me that they did NOT want to be out during the heat of the day. And they'd probably be more comfortable in their own little hidey-holes, than all together in the run-in. (dammit, I KNEW I should have had the water lines run to each individual stall for auto-waterers while I was getting the barn redone! Stuupid, stuupid...)

[equinelaw]

As far as I know, after studying enviromentla law for 3 years, this is the cleanest the USA has ever been. Air, water, soil--better then ever.

What I do see a change in, brought about my Ms Watts interesting research, is diveristy in grazing plants. Most modern paastures all all one type of grass plant and most of the greasses are "un-natural" university deveopled mutant plants that really and honestly are new. They simply didn't exist 50 years ago.
My horse is out 24/7 and when he grazes--its all one plant. No foraging for a variety of plants--its Tifton in his pasture, in his hay, everywhere.

When I was a kid growing up in NoVA I think I remember the fields being a bit more diverse? Dandylions, clover, grasses, all sorts of different plants. Now all I see is single species fields with all one type of grass.

[Druid Acres]

I've heard the speils about 'environmental illness' and I don't buy it. The 'cure' for EI ends up being trace minerals. I do think that trace mineral deficiency enters into metabolic problems, but blaming it on petro-chemical, industrial environmental toxins is just for dramatic affect.

I understand your point, but I didn't say a word about detox or curing anything, and I am most definitely NOT selling or advocating "cures" of any kind. I just think pollution is catching up with us.

In the 1970s, I boarded at several large barns that fed sweet feed and I don't recall a single IR or laminitic horse at any of them. I believe that something in our environment has changed, making all animals sicker. We'll just have to manage as best we can, which includes carefully monitoring NSC in feeds and forage.

Love your web site, BTW. Keep up the good work.

[Dianna]

George, there you go .. I don't know many "hobby horse" owners that have six figure horses or even five figure horses (but yes there are many people out there that do buy five figure horses)... but I suspect the majority of horse owners are buying 4 digit horses (with no cents - sorry, I couldn't resist) ...

I really do believe that there are more owners wanting the best for their horses within the realm of their financial reality .... than there are those who buy the horse and say, gee, let me nickle and dime the care and maintenance aspect of my horse's expenses.

[LookinSouth]

I used to board at a barn where one saddlebred mare stayed in ALL the time. NO turnout. Ever. She was pulled out of her stall maybe 2x a month to pogo around toting a great lump of a SS rider banging and jerking away. The owner was always irritated the mare was "naughty" and spent every session "tuning her up". When I inquired why the mare wasn't turned out, I was told she was a former saddleseat show horse and had never been turned out in her life--too valuable.

.

Actually I could be wrong but it is my understanding that MOST saddleseat show horses are not turned out due to the shoes they often have on for competition. From what I've been told they cannot be turned out with these shoes on...so they dont' get turned out. Not only that the riders WANT their horses very hot in most cases.

Not to knock on saddleseat people because not ALL participate in the practice. There are western, H/J and dressage barns around here that offer NO turnout whatsoever as well :no:

[Lookout]

What I do see a change in, brought about my Ms Watts interesting research, is diveristy in grazing plants. Most modern paastures all all one type of grass plant and most of the greasses are "un-natural" university deveopled mutant plants that really and honestly are new. They simply didn't exist 50 years ago.
My horse is out 24/7 and when he grazes--its all one plant. No foraging for a variety of plants--its Tifton in his pasture, in his hay, everywhere.

When I was a kid growing up in NoVA I think I remember the fields being a bit more diverse? Dandylions, clover, grasses, all sorts of different plants. Now all I see is single species fields with all one type of grass.

This is a very important factor that just doesn't get attention with domestic horse care.
Variety is definitely the spice of life for horses grazing the range. During the 15-30 daily coverage of miles they encounter a wide range of plant life including not just grass but herbs, plants, 'weeds', stemmy plants, etc. Doing so insures getting a wide variety of all the minerals, vitamins, and everything else they require. If they don't get it all in one day they certainly will over time. The domestic horse's diet doesn't begin to approach the diversity of the range diet and it takes some concerted effort to ensure it. Besides getting hay from a variety of sources, different herbs can be planted around the pasture edges (some places sell specific mixes for horses, like KV vet), and not be so aggressive about eliminating the 'weeds'.

[Katy Watts]

As far as I know, after studying enviromentla law for 3 years, this is the cleanest the USA has ever been. Air, water, soil--better then ever.

Amen. I've been involved in pesticide residue studies, have a background in pesticides, and can say that the pesticides today are WAY less toxic and have less environmental impact than 20 years ago. But people are still getting worked up about Rachel Carson's Silent Spring, when all those have been banned for 30 years. People need to find something a little more 'here and now' to get worked up over. There's plenty to choose from.


What I do see a change in, brought about my Ms Watts interesting research, is diveristy in grazing plants.

I'm not so sure it's about lack of diversity per se. It is true that many of the introduced grasses that have ended up being invasive and therefore tend to form monocultures are also higher in sugar than the mixed native grass meadows that precluded them. High sugar concentration is very closely linked to good agronomic characteristics. So lack of diversity is more like a side affect, rather than the main cause of the problem.
The lack of diversity is also caused by overgrazing. Ovegrazing provides selection pressure for those species that are highest in sugar. If you over graze a mixed sward of native grass in a temperate region, you'll end up with brome, Kentucky Bluegrass or fescue, depending on where you are located. All higher in sugar than most native grasses.
So lack of pasture managment skills, coupled with too many horses per acre, contributes to this issue.
Katy

[Chezzie]

Hey, I want to hear them! Because I know you've been on both sides of this too! (and how, eh? ;))

Chezzie, you made me feel a lot better prior to us moving because of your experiences with your mare in AZ. Of course, I didn't REALLY believe you that my girls would probably be fine until I got here and saw for myself, but it was good to be at least hearing first-hand that it could be OK from someone else who had their horse(es) in the restricted-boarding type situation.

Well, my first thought was that if you didn't out yourself and admit that you had moved to a no turnout situation, I was going to give you suuucccchhh a hard time!:winkgrin:

My second thought MistyBlue has already expressed thoroughly.

My third thought is that we all need to take a healthy dose of the old saying "There's more than one way to skin a cat." and rub it on our collective overinflated egos.

[Tory Relic]

not be so aggressive about eliminating the 'weeds'.

I agree. It is only a weed if it is so invasive that it takes a field over or is harmful to horse or human. Otherwise, if it can co-exist peacefully with my grass, it's not a weed. My horse, for one, loves dandelion. Scarfs it right up, but to many, that's a weed. A pasture and a lawn are different things.

[appaloosalady]

Finally, I think some of our breeding practices are very much at fault. We are breeding mares who would never get pregnant without the extraordinary measures. We are chemically manipulating things far beyond what is 'normal' for a mare; and breeding artificially, when sometimes Nature, in her innate knowledge would NEVER let that mare stand for that stallion.

Totally agree! I posted something similar on the SHB forum a while ago and it was not a very popular opinion :lol:. When I see what some people do in order to get an extremely "average" mare in foal it completely blows my mind. Why, oh why, would a responsible breeder do that? Why would someone want to pass on infertility issues to future generations?:confused:

[LookinSouth]

These conversations are great for making those who can feel so much better about themselves, but they do little to help that portion of the horse world who can't quite provide the exact care they would ilke to.

Solution? How about put more energy and time into concern for the welfare of said horse that is stalled 20 to 24 hours out of the day and LESS on competition. Again, I am NOT speaking about horse owners that have no other option available. I am speaking about horse owners that CHOOSE to have their horse stalled day in day out for their showing lifestyle or for their own personal convenience.

[LookinSouth]

I think another thing that's changing is the notion that a horse with a suspensory, bowed tendon, etc. needs to be on stall rest for 6 or 9 months. That's another bit of dogma I'd LOVE to see dispelled.

Well said.

[griffox]

Totally agree! I posted something similar on the SHB forum a while ago and it was not a very popular opinion :lol:. When I see what some people do in order to get an extremely "average" mare in foal it completely blows my mind. Why, oh why, would a responsible breeder do that? Why would someone want to pass on infertility to future generations?:confused:

Not to mention, foals that normally would have died shortly after birth are kept alive with the most advanced veterinary care. After working a foaling season at a top equine hospital in lexington, ky I learned what the TB business is all about. If you spend $250,000 on a stud fee, you're going to keep that dummy foal alive even if it means tubed feedings, colic surgeries, plasma, blood transfusions, fluids, IV nutrition, hyperbaric treatments for bed sores, urinary catheters, oxygen...I could go on. All this because, should this foal live, it COULD be really fast...but what are the odds of that?? Maybe none of the foals' health problems are genetic, but maybe they are. In nature there's no room for weak genetics. You can't deny that SOME breeding methods are focused more on performance than on health and longevity. Even if it is not THE issue at hand, it makes you wonder how that will affect horses 100 or 1000 years from now. Maybe by then we'll all be medical wonders. :o

[Rancher]

I basically ignore my horses and they have stayed away from the vet. I have called the vet for an emergency exactly ONCE in 8 years of horse owning (knock on wood). Had a horse with a leg blown up like a balloon so bad she couldn't even bend her knee. Turns out she had an abscess that popped just before the vet got there and was totally fine in a few days. And that's it.

I don't blanket them, they have never seen a stall, they have 24/7 access to some type of food (grass or wild hay), they have 24/7 access to water ( I have a tank heater that keeps my entire tank thawed and so there is never an empty bucket, etc), I don't feed my horses any type of supplements, all my horses are barefoot, and they are very rarely ever locked up on less than an acre. The only 'un-natural' things I do for them is vaccinate them, trim hooves and float teeth otherwise they take care of themselves.

I have a video of my 'herd' running around like fools on a day that was SOO cold the snow had a serious crunch to it under hooves. My lungs were burning just from running around trying to keep up with them to take more video and they could care less about the cold. Someone needs to tell my boys and girls that you are not supposed to get breathing hard during very cold weather. I am just lucky to have horses that don't require anything extra to keep them warm.

[Rancher]

Solution? How about put more energy and time into concern for the welfare of said horse that is stalled 20 to 24 hours out of the day and LESS on competition. Again, I am NOT speaking about horse owners that have no other option available. I am speaking about horse owners that CHOOSE to have their horse stalled day in day out for their showing lifestyle or for their own personal convenience.

To me keeping a horse locked up for that length of time is abuse. I would rather see a horse underweight (not deathly, just skinny) than see a horse locked up for LONG periods of time for NOTHING. They are animals, not your sports car you want to keep the rain off of. Wouldn't you look at someone funny if they told you they kept their show cat locked in a small rabbit cage 23 hours a day. Their excuse was that when they let him out he ran around like a fool and climbed the curtains and they were worried he would fall. So the solution was to keep him locked up so he wouldn't do that.

[Rancher]

This is a very important factor that just doesn't get attention with domestic horse care.
Variety is definitely the spice of life for horses grazing the range. During the 15-30 daily coverage of miles they encounter a wide range of plant life including not just grass but herbs, plants, 'weeds', stemmy plants, etc. Doing so insures getting a wide variety of all the minerals, vitamins, and everything else they require. If they don't get it all in one day they certainly will over time. The domestic horse's diet doesn't begin to approach the diversity of the range diet and it takes some concerted effort to ensure it. Besides getting hay from a variety of sources, different herbs can be planted around the pasture edges (some places sell specific mixes for horses, like KV vet), and not be so aggressive about eliminating the 'weeds'.

Yes yes!! I always thought it was funny that people always seemed to feed horses one or two types of grass. I mean come on...potatoes are good for you, but would you really want to eat ONLY potatoes for the rest of your life? I buy my horses 'wild' hay. Hay that was never planted. Its full of weeds, brush, little alfalfa, etc. May look awful to some, but it's perfect for my herd. They love it. My pastures have also never been planted. I will manually pull the weeds the horses obviously don't like and seem to be taking over, but that's it.
I try my best to make sure they are getting a varied diet.

[caballus]

This is a very important factor that just doesn't get attention with domestic horse care.
Variety is definitely the spice of life for horses grazing the range. During the 15-30 daily coverage of miles they encounter a wide range of plant life including not just grass but herbs, plants, 'weeds', stemmy plants, etc. Doing so insures getting a wide variety of all the minerals, vitamins, and everything else they require. If they don't get it all in one day they certainly will over time. The domestic horse's diet doesn't begin to approach the diversity of the range diet and it takes some concerted effort to ensure it. Besides getting hay from a variety of sources, different herbs can be planted around the pasture edges (some places sell specific mixes for horses, like KV vet), and not be so aggressive about eliminating the 'weeds'. don't forget bark, saplings, leaves, shrubs, etc. All good forages for them (except the toxic ones!)

[Eventer55]

This is always an interesting if not controversial topic, so here's my 2cents: I would imagine it is a combination of things that make some people think of the modern day horse as fragile. First, the advancements in veterinary medicine have given us greater insight into how to manage an older horse better. When my mother was young an older horse was 12 to 15 years an now we think of it as over 20. My vet has 2 horses in her care that are 40. My cushings horses get a great deal of care ie: special feed, medicine and careful consideration of their coats. Years ago no one knew about cushings.

A second thing to ponder is what it takes to get a horse to Rolex for example. I don't know of any horse at Rolex that just runs free with no grain or vet care. When you spend that much money and time getting to Rolex it's because your horse is scrutinized constantly for bumps, weight, lameness and attitude. Feeding horses that compete at high levels is ever evolving and again this requires careful scrutiny.

My horses don't "require" blankets when they are not clipped, but I can't work my horses terribly hard in the cold weather unless I have them clipped and a clipped horse requires a blanket. Hense in order to do what I want with my horses I need to "pamper" them. I actually don't consider this pampering, I consider it just good horse keeping.

[Tory Relic]

Solution? How about put more energy and time into concern for the welfare of said horse that is stalled 20 to 24 hours out of the day and LESS on competition. Again, I am NOT speaking about horse owners that have no other option available. I am speaking about horse owners that CHOOSE to have their horse stalled day in day out for their showing lifestyle or for their own personal convenience.

I agree. Back in the day, when in Maryland, I was checking out boarding facilities to see what it would cost to keep a horse. I found out real quick that it cost a good bit more to have decent turnout included, and it was out of my range. I absolutely refused to own a horse until I could afford to have them turned out at least 12 hours a day. So I spent a lot of time riding other people's horses.

[LookinSouth]

I agree. Back in the day, when in Maryland, I was checking out boarding facilities to see what it would cost to keep a horse. I found out real quick that it cost a good bit more to have decent turnout included, and it was out of my range. I absolutely refused to own a horse until I could afford to have them turned out at least 12 hours a day. So I spent a lot of time riding other people's horses.


I realize this is the case in many parts of the country and I feel badly for horse owners on a budget that have no other options at this time. However, around here I can think of multiple barns of various disciplines that DO HAVE grass turnout, yet many horse owners at these facilities request their horses only be turned out at minimal. They are not at these facilities for the turnout, they are there for the trainer, huge indoor, facilities etc...

Again human comfort before creature comfort. As another poster mentioned horses are not a piece of pricey sporting equipment. I realize many take this sport very seriously, as do I, BUT the bottom line is our "equipment" is a living, breathing creature that deserves better than my skis and mountain bike that are cleaned , maintained and stored in the closet!

[hunterjumper81]

I have to agree that I think we are killing our horses with kindness. I rode and competed as a kid, left the horseworld and then came back to it as an adult. One thing that struck me was the plethora of supplements out there. I don't remember that when I was younger? You almost feel strange if your horse isn't on 2 or 3 supplments. And now it seems like the trend is to start them before any issues, as a preventative! That boggles my mind. I admit my two are on a joint supplement but they are 24 and 22 respectively. But the 24 year old is an OTTB with 10 years on the track and the other is a QH with documented navicular problems.

I will have to agree with you on the supplement thing. I know that some of the big ones like Cosequin have been around for a long time but I remember as a kid when I used to feed to work off my lessons NO ONE was on a supplement. Now we have everything out there in either a powder, pellet, paste, or injection. I am a veterinary technician and strongly believe in preventing the possible unknown, but remember, everything is a preventative, including your vaccines. My horse is 20 and is on a very low maintenance joint supplement and I will agree as a preventative. But he is a horse and acts just like a horse. He is not stalled unless we stay overnight at a show and even then he was not happy and broke the hardware off the stall! (How embarrassing) Not only that, he gets turned out with his friends and his "stall" is just a run in with a pretty large paddock off of it so that he can play and really run around unlike some small paddocks I have seen. I also know that he came from the stalled life and prefers this option over being stalled with no turnout.

I have worked in farms where I had to fight to get horses turned out because they were stalled 24/7 and there were some lush green paddocks right behind the farm that were just for looks. And when I was able to get them out, I was only allowed to put them in the indoor for maybe an hour at at time. Horses like to be horses. I have seen how stiff the bigger guys can get from just standing all the time. If you got the turnout, use it. Your not doing anyone a favor by pampering a loved one.

[Tory Relic]

I realize this is the case in many parts of the country and I feel badly for horse owners on a budget that have no other options at this time. However, around here I can think of multiple barns of various disciplines that DO HAVE grass turnout, yet many horse owners at these facilities request their horses only be turned out at minimal. They are not at these facilities for the turnout, they are there for the trainer, huge indoor, facilities etc...

Again human comfort before creature comfort. As another poster mentioned horses are not a piece of pricey sporting equipment. I realize many take this sport very seriously, as do I, BUT the bottom line is our "equipment" is a living, breathing creature that deserves better than my skis and mountain bike that are cleaned , maintained and stored in the closet!

I agree with you! And I am sympathetic to people who have no alternatives. But in my case, I chose not to own a horse until I could afford turnout, even if it meant I couldn't afford to show or other things that were for ME. And luckily enough, I was in horse country and could afford lessons at barns where you were allowed to ride the school horses and could short-term lease horses for trail rides and to go hunting or whatever. I was at one barn where there was a pool of horses that you paid a fee to belong to a lease pool. Then you were evaluated and told which horses were suitable for you to ride. They backed up to a big park that was wonderful for trail riding. So I was able to ride some nice horses.

My husband and I have this discussion about hobbies all the time. He always says his hobbies don't have to be fed. Which is very true, luckily, we see eye to eye on what we consider to be bottom line horse care.

I am very fortunate to have property on which to keep a horse.

[Auventera Two]

don't forget bark, saplings, leaves, shrubs, etc. All good forages for them (except the toxic ones!)

Exactly!

We rode for 4 hours on Saturday in the snow. We stopped for a short break to adjust some tack configurations and our horses were eating dry sticks poking up out of the snow. They were just snapping them off and crunching them up like it was a grand treat. They grazed on sticks for 15 minutes.

[ProzacPuppy]

Another point - horses that are never stalled but on 24/7 turnout usually have a harder time adjusting to show schedules which can include 2-6 weeks of stabling at a show facility which has little to no turnout. Even if you pay extra for a "paddock" most of them are little more than a 15x15 postage stamp of land for the horse to stand in outside the show barn. I've known a couple people who brought "field board" horses to shows and the horses were obviously stressed by being stalled 24/7 to the extent that some colicked, some refused to eat, some started weaving.

While 24/7 turnout, unshaved winter coats and unshod hooves are probably the best thing for the horse the reality is that alot of people own competition horses with a full show schedule, often year round, and none of those things are options many times. To put studs in your jumper or eventer you need shoes, to compete the horse needs to be shaved and clipped and to be able to withstand the stress of 20 hour trailer rides and weeks in a show stall without turnout the horse has to be comfortable with that level of confinement and isolation.

Is the show or competition life the optimal way to keep a horse? Probably not but a large proportion of the nation's horse population ARE competition horses. Due to the stresses of the competition horse's life they are often treated like "hothouse flowers" to compensate for the unnatural way they are kept.

[LookinSouth]

I agree with you! And I am sympathetic to people who have no alternatives. But in my case, I chose not to own a horse until I could afford turnout, even if it meant I couldn't afford to show or other things that were for ME. And luckily enough, I was in horse country and could afford lessons at barns where you were allowed to ride the school horses and could short-term lease horses for trail rides and to go hunting or whatever. I was at one barn where there was a pool of horses that you paid a fee to belong to a lease pool. Then you were evaluated and told which horses were suitable for you to ride. They backed up to a big park that was wonderful for trail riding. So I was able to ride some nice horses.

My husband and I have this discussion about hobbies all the time. He always says his hobbies don't have to be fed. Which is very true, luckily, we see eye to eye on what we consider to be bottom line horse care.

I am very fortunate to have property on which to keep a horse.

Absolutely agree. I too would rather not own than provide my horse with lackluster care. I won't be owning again anytime soon since when my own horse has to retire from competition I will probably just do a partial lease. IF I want to keep jumping/showing and just let my horse stick to the trails. This is only because I would not be able to afford full board for TWO horses at a facility that would meet my standards.

[Tory Relic]

Another point - horses that are never stalled but on 24/7 turnout usually have a harder time adjusting to show schedules which can include 2-6 weeks of stabling at a show facility which has little to no turnout. Even if you pay extra for a "paddock" most of them are little more than a 15x15 postage stamp of land for the horse to stand in outside the show barn. I've known a couple people who brought "field board" horses to shows and the horses were obviously stressed by being stalled 24/7 to the extent that some colicked, some refused to eat, some started weaving.

While 24/7 turnout, unshaved winter coats and unshod hooves are probably the best thing for the horse the reality is that alot of people own competition horses with a full show schedule, often year round, and none of those things are options many times. To put studs in your jumper or eventer you need shoes, to compete the horse needs to be shaved and clipped and to be able to withstand the stress of 20 hour trailer rides and weeks in a show stall without turnout the horse has to be comfortable with that level of confinement and isolation.

Is the show or competition life the optimal way to keep a horse? Probably not but a large proportion of the nation's horse population ARE competition horses. Due to the stresses of the competition horse's life they are often treated like "hothouse flowers" to compensate for the unnatural way they are kept.

There can be a happy medium, I think. A clipped horse can be blanketed for turn out. A horse doesn't need to be out 24 hours a day. 12/12 (or there abouts) works just as well and you can keep the show horse in nights during the winter to help accommodate the clipped coat and in during the summer to prevent bleaching. Mine hangs out a lot in her run in during the summer. She definitely likes a fan.

I would require, for my horse, a minimum of six hours turnout, and down here, I'd want her to be out at night in the summer, and in when it's really hot if she's going to be in at all.

I do understand that many people cannot do this and are likely doing the best they can with what they have, but lack of turnout, overfeeding, and over supplementing are among the things that I think makes horses these days less healthy. Just my opinion, though.

[Daydream Believer]

What am I doing differently now than I was 10 years ago...Lots.

My horses live outside 24/7 unless there is a very important reason to bring them: mares ready to foal, getting ready for a show where they will be stabled (to accustom them to the stalling) and injury, of course. I don't bring them in if it's cold or rains but only in extreme weather like a hurricane or major blizzard/ice storm.

I don't shoe mine anymore...haven't had to in several years now and don't foresee having to in the future. If I need additional protection, I will use boots. So far, I haven't had to use those. I trim my own now also and feel I do a better job than any local farrier I could find. 10 years ago I never imagined I would be trimming either...that kind of just happened to me and now I'm hooked!

I feed way less grain and I've moved from premix grains to a custom program using whole grains and good quality supplementation. Since doing that I have not had any developmental problems in any growing horses (did before I switched).

I feed round bales...never did that before but now I have 25-30 of my own horses at any given time, I find it more economical and a worksaver.

I vaccinate way less also and do the vaccinations myself mostly. I still worm on a regular rotational program as I feel that I need to. I try to avoid Quest...I don't trust it.

I switched to treeless saddles also a couple of years ago for one horse's problems and now am probably getting rid of all my old treed saddles that sit and collect dust. Even if I had a horse that could use a treed saddle, I can't tolerate one as they are too uncomfortable for me now. I sat in my old Wintec Pro the other day and wondered how I ever managed to ride in it!

I don't wrap anymore in a trailer. Hauled one 10,000 miles total this summer with bare legs and he is fine...just as sound as he could be. I don't mind boots or wraps in a trailer in principal but just am not so fixated on stuff like that anymore. I think for a high risk horse I'd wrap but it would need to be more than a routine trip for me to do it.

I have eased up on micromanaging every detail...like putting fly spray on daily or blanketing. I only blanket my stallion so his coat is not too thick for winter riding. Maybe having so many horses finally maxed out my worry meter!

[Lookout]

Another point - horses that are never stalled but on 24/7 turnout usually have a harder time adjusting to show schedules which can include 2-6 weeks of stabling at a show facility which has little to no turnout. Even if you pay extra for a "paddock" most of them are little more than a 15x15 postage stamp of land for the horse to stand in outside the show barn. I've known a couple people who brought "field board" horses to shows and the horses were obviously stressed by being stalled 24/7 to the extent that some colicked, some refused to eat, some started weaving.

weeks in a show stall without turnout the horse has to be comfortable with that level of confinement and isolation.


Well what does that reaction to being thrust into confinement say about its effect on horses? Is a horse that spends lots of time in a stall 'comfortable' with it, or just stopped showing its stress so obviously? I know people will say they adapt, but that would have to assume that their biological instincst as a prey animal are somehow overridden with time, and that the horse 'realizes' that even though all his instincts tell him he needs to be able to get away, somehow in this barn he no longer does. I think it is this 'insidious' stress (unrecognized or unacknowledged by the caretaker) that is most responsible for horses appearing to be fragile hothouse flowers.

[sublimequine]

Well what does that reaction to being thrust into confinement say about its effect on horses? Is a horse that spends lots of time in a stall 'comfortable' with it, or just stopped showing its stress so obviously? I know people will say they adapt, but that would have to assume that their biological instincst as a prey animal are somehow overridden with time, and that the horse 'realizes' that even though all his instincts tell him he needs to be able to get away, somehow in this barn he no longer does. I think it is this 'insidious' stress (unrecognized or unacknowledged by the caretaker) that is most responsible for horses appearing to be fragile hothouse flowers.

If being in a stall is so stressful, why is it that some horses stand at the gate and just BEG to come inside? :lol:

[Lookout]

If being in a stall is so stressful, why is it that some horses stand at the gate and just BEG to come inside? :lol:

Because there's no shelter from the flies? Because they're waiting to be fed inside?
If it's not, why are those horses described by PP so visibly disturbed by it?

[deltawave]

This is all conditioning. There is no argument as to what is "natural" or "unnatural" regarding whether horses belong in barns or not. What we have is varying levels of adaptation, by individuals who adapt in different ways, just like people. :)

Take a phlegmatic, low-stress type of individual and subject it to unnatural conditions and it may cope VERY much better, to all outward appearances, than a fretful, anxious individual. (note I'm not specifying a species here) Take an individual and subject it to TRULY distressing conditions and, again, depending on temperament, it may rail and struggle at first, but eventually virtually all will sort of resign themselves. The ones who do not may become physically ill, violent, injure themselves, whatever. Which is the better coping mechanism? Who knows?

Living beings are EXTRAORDINARILY adaptible. There are limits for every situation and every individual. One cannot generalize too much.

[equinelaw]

There are many scientific studies that gave domestic animals choices. A lot of domestic animals chose to have the same comforts and luxeries people might chose. What they liked best was having a choice though. . .

The horses, just like my horse and many other people's horses, if given a choice, prefered access to shade and fans and safety. They also like an open door so they can chose to leave if they wish. I know its not what we think they should want, but you have to pry my horse out of the deepest, darkest corner of a run-in during the day if its hotter then 50 degrees. He likes his stall and choses to be in it. He is not fed in the run-in. He likes it becuase it is safe and dark and cool. He has other run-ins to use, but he hates them. He has stolen the run-in that is supposed to house the tractor. Clearly, he has not read many books on proper horse care or he would know he to supposed to do that, but:confused::confused:

That said, we must remember horses did not "evolve" at all, in the past tense. They are a domestic animal that is constantly changing and continually evolving at our whims. They bare little relationship to wild animals. They evolve every time we make a breeding and don't stop unitl we stop making them in our chosen image. My horse was bred to be in a stall as much as he wants. So were his parents and his parents before that.

Would it be abuse and cruelty to force him out into the sun and the flys if he doesn't want that? I don't know, but he can chose and we can argue all we want, but the horses know what they want better then we do.

[Lookout]

This is all conditioning. There is no argument as to what is "natural" or "unnatural" regarding whether horses belong in barns or not. What we have is varying levels of adaptation, by individuals who adapt in different ways, just like people. :)

Take a phlegmatic, low-stress type of individual and subject it to unnatural conditions and it may cope VERY much better, to all outward appearances, than a fretful, anxious individual. (note I'm not specifying a species here) Take an individual and subject it to TRULY distressing conditions and, again, depending on temperament, it may rail and struggle at first, but eventually virtually all will sort of resign themselves. The ones who do not may become physically ill, violent, injure themselves, whatever. Which is the better coping mechanism? Who knows?

Living beings are EXTRAORDINARILY adaptible. There are limits for every situation and every individual. One cannot generalize too much.

I do agree with you. But maybe what appears to be adaptability is as you say, resignation - and with that comes coping mechanisms, and low level stress. What I'm saying is that while a horse may appear to be 'coping' because there are few obviously visible outward signs of stress, because their innate instincts are being overridden by their circumstances over which they have no control, low-level stress is a continuous situation for them. With this comes continuous release of stress hormones, which as just one example can lead to Cushings.

[deltawave]

Right, no question a horse that appears to be calmly "dealing with" whatever situation may, in fact, just be sort of numb and resigned. But it's beyond me how you would be able to tell in all situations for all horses...careful, careful observation and just knowing the animal well would probably serve, but it's probably almost axiomatic that horses that are subject to the "worst" conditions by most standards aren't typically owned by the most observant or thoughtful people.

People often ask me if "stress caused their heart attack" or whatever, to which I am never able to say YES or NO. How can I? Virtually EVERYONE (I'm talking 95%) of people who see me tell me they have ENORMOUS stress. Can that really be so? Surely there must be SOME people out there who aren't stressed? (maybe they don't go to the doctor, LOL) but the point is--ALL living beings have stress. Stress is NORMAL and probably beneficial in many ways. Kind of like exercise--it hurts, but then you get stronger. Of course when one has no means of coping or avoiding it (like a horse in terrible conditions)....

[pintopiaffe]

Oh, phew, for a minute I thought you were talking about me. (PP)

And I pulled in my 24/7 turnout boy, clipped his wooly winter coat in a hideous pattern, put a blanket on him, and incarcerated him, subjecting him to limited turnout and daily WORK. And he never blinked.

I also stall him the night before a show (he's a pinto afterall) and he could care less. He stalls for several nights if we do a clinic. He doesn't protest. In fact, he lays down even in strange places and completely sacks out provided he has clean fresh shavings. :yes:

Perhaps he stresses... but he sure doesn't show it.

[sublimequine]

Because there's no shelter from the flies? Because they're waiting to be fed inside?
If it's not, why are those horses described by PP so visibly disturbed by it?

I've seen horses in early fall, when there are no flies, and it is GORGEOUS out, want to come in RIGHT after their breakfast. They will stand at the gate and wait for someone to bring them in, even if they are out in a pasture full of grass or there's hay available.

I think it's not a good idea to lump all horses together in a statement like, "All horses are stressed by stalls". Horses are individuals. Some may be stressed by stalling (like my mare), some may PREFER to be stalled (like a horse named Gabriel I used to turnout.. I swear that horse would rather be in 24/7 then 8 hours of turnout daily.:eek:).

[Lookout]

That said, we must remember horses did not "evolve" at all, in the past tense. They are a domestic animal that is constantly changing and continually evolving at our whims. They bare little relationship to wild animals. They evolve every time we make a breeding and don't stop unitl we stop making them in our chosen image.
No matter what we do to them with breeding, we have not and will not breed out of them that they are prey animals and that their behavior is governed by their instinct to stay alive.

My horse was bred to be in a stall as much as he wants. So were his parents and his parents before that.

I honestly don't know how you would breed for such a thing.

[Dianna]

I have a horse that due to some issues with lymphangitis stayed out 24/7.... if I was not careful about shutting the gate behind me when I took his grain and hay out, he would sneak in the barn, straight to his stall and lay down. I would literally have to threaten him to get him back up and outside .....


My TB mare and gelding were having work done to their stalls ... after 3 days of 24/7 out they stormed the barn


Perhaps it is a learned behavior, but when my horses come in, laydown (on their straw beds) and sleep before worrying about eating, then I am not too convinced they are suffering from my forced luxuries of straw stalls, misters and fans.

[sublimequine]

I have a horse that due to some issues with lymphangitis stayed out 24/7.... if I was not careful about shutting the gate behind me when I took his grain and hay out, he would sneak in the barn, straight to his stall and lay down. I would literally have to threaten him to get him back up and outside .....


My TB mare and gelding were having work done to their stalls ... after 3 days of 24/7 out they stormed the barn


Perhaps it is a learned behavior, but when my horses come in, laydown (on their straw beds) and sleep before worrying about eating, then I am not too convinced they are suffering from my forced luxuries of straw stalls, misters and fans.

I agree. Some horses love their stalls. Some don't. :yes:

[equinelaw]

OTTB. If they couldn't hack being in stalls they would lose races. If they lost races they don't get to reproduce. Ideally, that is--if its a well bred horse. Mine is well bred. I assume his ancestors, for at least 100 years of selective breeding, were bred based on being able to thrive and still be stall bound. The sick and weak didn't win races.

Being a prey animal does not mean you are happier outside around all those preditors. Horses must be forced out of burning barns. They like nice, safe, predictable places.

They need turn out, and lots of it, but there is no hard data to suggest they prefer 24/7 turn-out in all cases.

If I try and lock him out of his favorite run-in he will simply break the boards. If I try and lock him in another pasture he will simply jump back into his run-in paddock. I assume he knows what he want sand is driven by his drives. Clearly, he does not care what I want to believe he wants:)

Horses evolved from small forest creatures into grass plains creatures. Then, but for the intervention of man, they went extinct. We made them better, more adpatable, and unlike thier wild ancestors.

I am personally fonder and much more in favor of the myth they need to be free and "natural", but the data just doesn't support this. They do what they want to do and, in fact, if given a mixed pasture they seem to like hanging out in sheds, under trees. dozing in groups during the day. More like deer then Buffalo.
Its not what we think we know--its just what they do. They may get stressed when choice is removed, but thats not about environment--thats about access. I LOVE laying around watching TV on rainy days. I would not love jail, even if there was TV:)

Nobody is ruining their horses by keeping them in part of the time. They may be saving them since a show horse must LOOK like a show horse and most people want to show and win. Losers in that sector don't see the breeding shed as much either.

This si all new to me too. I read these threads and check the research and change my mind. I observe. I think. I learn. I learn we don't know squat about horses and neeed to stop acting like they are the same animals we rescued from extinction 10,000 years ago and turned into animals worthy of vermin status. They are not wild horses and haven't been for thousands of years. They are our horses and they evolved right along beside us as we grew a liking for comforts and safety.

My horse can be out on 5 acres, with a companion, in knee deep grass, and still find the best place to hang out is near the window where the fan runs and he can listen to TV. That does doesn't fit into the paradigm of the wild free roaming beastie:) He prefers Dr. Phil over Dr. Green!

[Dianna]

If we were really to use their ancestors as the reason why they should all run free, be free, be natural ... then what about our dogs and cats? Wouldn't they be better off, outside, eating live prey instead of the dry crunch diets we feed them, forcing many to live inside, laying about on couches and beds, rather than out being dogs & cats?

[Auventera Two]

I do agree with you. But maybe what appears to be adaptability is as you say, resignation - and with that comes coping mechanisms, and low level stress. What I'm saying is that while a horse may appear to be 'coping' because there are few obviously visible outward signs of stress, because their innate instincts are being overridden by their circumstances over which they have no control, low-level stress is a continuous situation for them. With this comes continuous release of stress hormones, which as just one example can lead to Cushings.

Well, if that's true then certainly horses should never be ridden, put to a cart, or trailered. All these situations bind them with ropes, straps, girths, walls, ceilings, bits, etc. A horse's NATURAL instinct is to be free and loose. To not be bound or squeezed in a tight place. To not be cinched with tight things around their bodies. All these situations would surely cause stress to some degree.

My dog's NATURAL instinct is to roam in search of food, to pack up, and to take down prey. But if my dogs took down my chickens or a foal, or a small child, they'd be 6 feet under quicker than you could say - get the gun.

My Weimaraner has extremely short hair, is very thin, and has a raging metabolism. Her belly and insides of her legs are completely naked. She wears 2 coats just to be able to spend 20 minutes outside when it's 0 degrees. She would die in this environment and would not thrive in the wild. We have captive bred domestic animals for specific characteristics, so surely attempting to maintain them "like wild" is neither beneficial or fruitful.

Animals adapt to domestication, even if our domestic environment is less than ideal, or is far from "natural." I wrote about this in a paper last year. Copied below is an excert from my paper:

<snip>


(1)Domestication is the act of removing a animal from its natural environment and subjecting it to the confines and restrictions dictated by humans by changing its habitat, diet, social hierarchy, behavior and physiology. Pulitzer Prize winner and Evolutionary Biologist and Physiologist, Jared Diamond, indicates that animals must possess six characteristics in order to be domesticated. (Guns, Germs, and Steel, W. W. Nortan & Company, Copyright 1999)

Flexible diet
Reasonably fast growth rate
Ability to breed in captivity
Pleasant disposition
Temperament that makes it unlikely to panicModifiable social hierarchyStudying these characteristics, makes us aware of the modifications humans have forced upon the horse’s natural tendencies. Instead of roaming free, horses are often stalled. Instead of grazing at least 20 hours per day on sparse vegetation, horses eat two or three meals per day of concentrated feeds, enriched hay, and high potency supplements. Instead of maintaining a herd environment, horses are often kept in isolation or in small groups so that hierarchy cannot be established and cultivated. Domestication means compromise and substitution for today’s horse. Even when turnout in a herd is given, often it is on inappropriate land, with rich grasses, and unbeneficial footing. It is rare to find horses maintained according to their natural tendencies and demands.

As with many systems of the horse, changes can be noted in the feet in correlation to the environment and diet the horse is exposed to. As such, the care of the hooves of domestic horses is quite different than what would be required on a free ranging animal. In the absence of abrasive terrain and movement, the hooves grow long and unbalanced, requiring frequent trimming to maintain health. In many cases owners and farriers jointly decide to shoe the horse in response to pain, tenderness, or any number of hoof pathologies suffered due to incorrect environment, insufficient stimulation, and inappropriate diet.

<snip>

Horses are highly adaptable to domestication, but we do need to take note of when we are pushing the limits on that adaptation. If we want a dog, we should buy a dog. We should not buy a horse and keep it as a dog. We have domesticated certain animals and certain animals we have not. Why don't we keep monkeys, lions, or gazelle as pets to raise within our families? It's quite clear that certain species simply cannot or will not adapt to domestication favorably. Others will. Equines are highly adaptable, but we do need to take inventory of our own actions and whether or not we push the envelope in our demands.

The horse has adapted quite well to riding, working, living in stables, and to our human agendas as long as a few basic criteria are met in terms of their care and husbandry. I don't think horses need to live the life of a wild range bronc. But I do think we need to consider their digestive system, their feet, and their mental needs a little more carefully than we do.

[Dianna]

Ah, my mother bought my sister a spider monkey (I think that was the breed) ... it was cute as a button ... BUT it was a pick pocket ... it had a thing about men (hated them) and it had a habit of taking off its diaper and urinating on my mother ... which, believe it or not, was not the reason why we got ride of it ... mom tolerated the peeing, believing this would pass in time .. but when the monkey urinated on the Sunday dinner's mashed potatoes, that was it ... back to the pet store it went. This was in 1955.

[LookinSouth]

If we want a dog, we should buy a dog. We should not buy a horse and keep it as a dog. We have domesticated certain animals and certain animals we have not. Why don't we keep monkeys, lions, or gazelle as pets to raise within our families? It's quite clear that certain species simply cannot or will not adapt to domestication favorably. Others will. Equines are highly adaptable, but we do need to take inventory of our own actions and whether or not we push the envelope in our demands.

The horse has adapted quite well to riding, working, living in stables, and to our human agendas as long as a few basic criteria are met in terms of their care and husbandry. I don't think horses need to live the life of a wild range bronc. But I do think we need to consider their digestive system, their feet, and their mental needs a little more carefully than we do.


Spot on. I couldn't agree more.

IMO the moral of the story is that indeed there are adaptations that need to be made in horse care to properly maintain a performance animal. It is very easy to say ALL horses should be unshod, unclipped, unblanketed, un grained, w/o preventative supplements and turned out 24/7 when you don't compete or ride seriously year round :winkgrin:.

As far as this trend in comparison to the past? Years ago I think people didn't show as much as they do now. The trend of point chasing was pretty much non-existant. Showing year round nearly every weekend REQUIRES a heck of alot of adaptation on the part of the horse. This also puts alot more stress on the animal as well. Increased demand for performance means increased demand for innovative drugs/supplements. Do I agree with all this? Not really but it is what it is. Horses are living alot longer as are people. Medical technology is changing daily.

A large part of horse ownership for many people revolves around competition and maintaining a performance horse. It is no more right or wrong than those that merely keep a pleasure animal. Horses are expensive creatures. You might as well be doing what you enjoy with your horse.
Neccessary adaptations can be made in the case of the performance horse but there should always be consideration for the equine well being BEFORE human convenience whenever possible. (i.e offering turnout even when it's not the most convenient option for the rider;) ) This of course goes hand in hand with good horsemanship.

[Auventera Two]

Ah, my mother bought my sister a spider monkey (I think that was the breed) ... it was cute as a button ... BUT it was a pick pocket ... it had a thing about men (hated them) and it had a habit of taking off its diaper and urinating on my mother ... which, believe it or not, was not the reason why we got ride of it ... mom tolerated the peeing, believing this would pass in time .. but when the monkey urinated on the Sunday dinner's mashed potatoes, that was it ... back to the pet store it went. This was in 1955.

:lol: Yes, peeing in the potatoes is a sure ticket back to whence you came. LOL! I got to hold a little monkey one time and he took my earrings off, and was working on my wedding ring but I was a little more protective of that. The earrings were hoops, so after he took them off, he hung them on in the crook of his arm like you'd hang on to your purse. I laughed so hard! :lol: He was an industrious little bugger!

[Daydream Believer]

I realize this does not apply in all circumstances but when someone tells me their horses "love" their stalls... I wonder if the horses care anywhere near as much as the people care. Case in point, one of my boarders tells me all the time that her horses love their stalls and are happy to be in and prefer it over turnout. One of her horses is a terrible cribber and he has stood and banged on his door hard enough with his leg to make himself lame. I think she is delusional if she thinks that horse is "happy" in his stall. When I mentioned that to her this a.m., she then said that he loves to be outside also. So what is it?

I think horses that "like" their stalls and seem to prefer them over outside life are conditioned to associate a stall with comfort and food. I have a 16 year old Arab stallion here as a boarder that was locked in a stall a good bit of his life. When we turn him out, he's OK for an hour or so and then he starts to pace or run frantically trying to get back inside. It rained on him the other day (a nice warm rain) and he nearly had heart failure. In my thinking, that is a horse that has been conditioned to think of a stall as a safe haven. It will take a while to condition him to be happy outside but we all know that turnout is healthy and "good," so we will do what we can to give him a more healthy lifestyle.

My own horses which live out happily 24/7 are not content inside even if you put them up a nice fan and give them food. They spend all their time looking out the windows and wanting to get back out to the pasture. That is where they are accustomed to being and what they "like."

I think the issue really boils down to what is "good" for the horse...not what they seem to "like" or "want." I want chocolate but it's not particulary good for me!

[deltawave]

it had a habit of taking off its diaper and urinating on my mother ...

OMG, I'm about peeing in MY pants reading that! :lol: :lol: :D :lol: :lol:

Sounds like a scene from that cartoon--which is it?--with the weird psychotic baby with the English accent and the fat guy?

[Tory Relic]

OTTB. If they couldn't hack being in stalls they would lose races. If they lost races they don't get to reproduce. Ideally, that is--if its a well bred horse. Mine is well bred. I assume his ancestors, for at least 100 years of selective breeding, were bred based on being able to thrive and still be stall bound. The sick and weak didn't win races.

Yep. My OTTB hates being in, which I attribute partly to being happier with turn out -- of course, I'm not an animal communicator, so I don't know for SURE. ;)

Being a prey animal does not mean you are happier outside around all those preditors. Horses must be forced out of burning barns. They like nice, safe, predictable places.

Agree.

They need turn out, and lots of it, but there is no hard data to suggest they prefer 24/7 turn-out in all cases.

Agree.

I am personally fonder and much more in favor of the myth they need to be free and "natural", but the data just doesn't support this. They do what they want to do and, in fact, if given a mixed pasture they seem to like hanging out in sheds, under trees. dozing in groups during the day. More like deer then Buffalo.
Its not what we think we know--its just what they do. They may get stressed when choice is removed, but thats not about environment--thats about access. I LOVE laying around watching TV on rainy days. I would not love jail, even if there was TV:)

Yes, having the choice is ideal, IMO.

Nobody is ruining their horses by keeping them in part of the time. They may be saving them since a show horse must LOOK like a show horse and most people want to show and win. Losers in that sector don't see the breeding shed as much either. Correct.

This si all new to me too. I read these threads and check the research and change my mind. I observe. I think. I learn. I learn we don't know squat about horses and neeed to stop acting like they are the same animals we rescued from extinction 10,000 years ago and turned into animals worthy of vermin status. They are not wild horses and haven't been for thousands of years. They are our horses and they evolved right along beside us as we grew a liking for comforts and safety.

True.

My horse can be out on 5 acres, with a companion, in knee deep grass, and still find the best place to hang out is near the window where the fan runs and he can listen to TV. That does doesn't fit into the paradigm of the wild free roaming beastie:) He prefers Dr. Phil over Dr. Green! :lol::lol:

Overall great post! I also agree with Deltawave that much of the behavior we see is conditioning. Heck, most of the behavior we, as human beings, exhibit is conditioning!

[LisaB]

All the tb's I've had wouldn't last 2 seconds in the wild. First, you pull the shoes, then owww! their feet hurt. Second, their metabolism could not be sustained on wild forage. A couple of them were smart but 3 in particular were dumber than dirt. Yeah, that's NOT a dog! It's a coyote! And then during the winter, they would freeze. Current barn doesn't blanket, period. She's an old brit and thinks it's balmy at 30 degrees. So I HAD to go out and blanket them when absolutely necessary and still didn't get a coat.
Anyway, then the polar opposite is Winston. The Amish reject. That horse is resilient, smart, and could probably survive in the sahara or the tundra. Didn't matter. I've seen him process information. If he assesses that it's good for him, he likes it. Otherwise, forget it. He's outta there.
But in modern competition, he tore a check ligament. Would he have done it in the wild? Most likely not. He had a tiny bone spur on the inside fetlock from all the road work he did in Amish land. I was working on tiny circles on uneven ground (trying to work on moving his hind legs instead of just squatting on them) and I'm pretty sure that's what did it.
He has ulcers. Would he get them in the wild? Probably not because if something stressed him, he's outta there. I keep him contained and press him on and also feed him high concentrate grain (not a lot though).
Anyway, I think the tb industry is definitely a culprit.
And at our barn we have this obese halter QH who has not 1 lick of common pasture sense about her. She's pretty much bred to oblivion from the shoulder down. She's smart in the barn but will stand in the middle of the lowest part of the field in a rain storm with her head facing the wind wondering why she's so miserable.

[Lookout]

OTTB. If they couldn't hack being in stalls they would lose races. If they lost races they don't get to reproduce. Ideally, that is--if its a well bred horse.

Stress does not produce instant harmful results and anyway, would not necessarily prevent a horse from running, in fact it may help! Who knows, maybe they would run even faster if they weren't in stalls. So I don't think that's at all an apt analogy or a logical deduction.
The results of stress are insidious and long lasting. The stress that they encounter on the race track stays with them for the rest of their lives and is the reason why they are hard keepers, have other health and emotional problems, and all the rest of the problems associated with OTTB's. The homebred raised TB's I've encountered are well-adjusted easy keepers, in contrast to their OTT brethren.

Being a prey animal does not mean you are happier outside around all those preditors. Horses must be forced out of burning barns. They like nice, safe, predictable places.

OK let's not get too anthropomorphic. You're saying they logically conclude that they're just as safe inside a stall they can't get out of, as an open area where they can run?
They have an instinct to get away, fast, from any possible predator. They are happier if they know they can do this. This is what they're doing when they start running around a pasture, all together, for no apparent reason, running around checking out a new pasture, or trying to run from the handler when being confined for a long time and led to turnout. It's not 'excess energy'. They're testing their getaway mechanism. Keeping them in a stall and them 'getting used to it', does not mean that they have understood that a predator will not not get them in their stalls. They do not have logic to override their instincts.

[deltawave]

Yes, but generations and generations of breeding may have impaired at least SOME of the instincts that horses have/had/could have/may have. Sure the average horse is chock full of instinctual behavior, but (as with people) a lot of that stuff is also probably GONE or at least potentially gone. Another way to say it is that horses have "evolved" to be able to lay aside some of their instincts to better adapt to domestication. An example being the perfect comfort that many horses display when stabled, even to the point of preferring it.

I simply can't fathom an animal that is PURELY "instinct-driven" standing in a paddock and starving to death when all it needs to do is jump the fence to get the grass that is 5 feet away. They have surrendered many of their instincts in the face of domestication.

[LuvMyTB]

This is really a great thread. I have not read all the replies yet but will soon--very interesting stuff!

I grew up thinking that horses were perfectly fine on 3 hrs of turnout a day and a diet of straight corn. I have since grown up and realized otherwise.

My OTTB mare was a stalled, corn-fed, crazy show jumper for several years before she was turned out at the owner's farm. She then lived in a ginormous pasture with a small herd for 5 years. No shoes, sporadic grain, no blankets, nothing. Regular trims and routine vet visits were literally all she did for all that time. Apparently she did just fine.

Then I got her, and she was pasture-boarded for a year and a half and put into regular light work. She developed hoof problems, weight issues, and DEMANDED blanketing in the winter. Finally, with her feeding regimen worked out, shoes on, supplements added, and blanket securely buckled, she was fine.

This past October she choked badly and now requires a very strict and carefully monitored feeding schedule. She also is not allowed to have any grass. The only way to manage her environment this way was to pull her off pasture--no more 24/7 turnout--and put her in a stall. She now is on 8 hrs of turnout 6 days a week.

I was absolutely positive she was going to go crazy in the stall. She hadn't been stalled for more than 1 night in almost 7 years. And guess what? She has adjusted very well. She has developed a little wood-chewing habit, which I don't like, and displays some mild aggression towards her neighbords at feeding time, but otherwise is doing great. The biggest thing I have noticed is her willingness to lay down now that she is in a stall. When she was outside 24/7, I used to marvel at how clean her blankets would be--because she was very rarely laying down and rolling. Now, her blankets are regularly covered in shavings and manure stains--apparently she is more comfortable taking a nap inside than out.

I don't know what exactly this tells me. She lived for years practically on her own with little human interference, and she did great. As soon as I interfered, she developed a host of issues. She has adapted well to a drastic change in turnout time, but I can't help thinking she'd still like to be out more....who knows. I do the best I can for her and always try to put her comfort and happiness first, as I'm sure we all do.

[equinelaw]

Stress lowers the immune system, weakens tissue, causes metal disorders (not stereotypies), and interferes with digestion. Sick horses do not get to run races or jump courses.

I really do not know many OTTB's that don't turn into fat and happy easy horses after being properly let down. They do require more food, but its not rocket science--its just a higher metabalism. Of course I am old school from way back in the dark ages when all hunters, jumpers and most everything lese was a TB or part TB, so maybe I just know different horses. They were harder for non-horsemen to ride, but they never had to be skinny and certainly weren't ruined for life is they started off as a race horse. They just had to be perpetually drugged for clueless amatures:) In studies, QH were shown to be less reactive then TB's--didn't matter if the had raced or not. They are just less reactive. The reactiveness did go up with racebred horses of all breeds, but it didn't matter if they raced--just if they were bred for it.

Check out the many studies testing for stress hormones in race horses. Its down to an art where you only have to test saliva. They are not suffering. Neither are PMU mares or Saddelbreds. Of course we hate to think this is true. We are attached to our theories of what we belive is best for horses, but eventually the evidence piles up and you just have to give in. The margin for error is much wider then I ever thought.

Again, except for at the track and actually racing, the race horses I know do have some turn-out, get hacked in the woods, and are fussed over and mentally amused from 5am--10pm. They are started late and spend their fist 2 years running around in fields. Then they go to the training track where they slowly get used to being race horses. Then they race for a year or two and go back to being riding horses with long and useful lives. This is not always the case with all racehorses, but most racehorses have pretty good lives until training starts.

I have no comment on you rinterpretation of why horses run around. I thought they were just having fun. In a new feild, they are doing the "dance of the new horses" which is a ritualized dance to establish who is ranked where and how far the terrotory goes. Thats my guess. Yours is different.

Studies have shown that horses will bolt for almost exactly 1/8 of a mile. Thats how far they have to run to get away form anything chasing them. Pretators rely on sneak attacks to eat anything that runs. I see horses running around for 20 minutes at full speed, bukcing and playing. I see that as just having fun and doing what we bred them to do. This stuff too has been studied. We rank horse on the distance and duration of their "flight response" and call that a test of "reactivity" Needless to say, TB's rank high--thats what we bred them for.

I see children running around screaming all the time. They have no concept of a predator. They are just doing it to use up energy and have fun. Playing is part of learning to survive. All baby mammels play. Mammals will even play as adults if time allows it. Cats, dogs, bears, horses. . . . .ever seen the video of the Poalr bear playing with the sled dog? Polar bears have no natural predators. And birds? Intelligent birds love to play! I see horses running around and playing as just that--normal mammalian play time.

We can argue all day, but you really can't argue with the horse's preferance. I am in no way going to force my horse to stay outside 24/7 if he wants to be in his shed. He is intelligent enought to know what he prefers. He is also intelligent enough to learn to press a lever to tell me what he wants and has done this for several studies. He is not only an OTTB, but is also an ex-research horse. He wants IN if its hot outside. If he wants out, he can press a lever too. Of course I don't need levers at home, but I have seen horses trained to show their preferances and they do not always agree with wild is better. Neither do chickens, pigs, or cattle. Choice is better, but if they know they will be let out a predictable time they do not stress over staying in.

Domestic animals are not tamed counterparts of wild animals. They are MUTATED for neonatality, differing body propoetions, docile temperments, and adaptability to new lifestyles. See studies on blue foxes ect. . . A dog is not a wolf and a horse is not a Zebra. They are mutants that were made from those raw materials, but not wild animals any more. Pinto coloring is one of the traits domestic animals get out of the blue when you breed for a docile nature. Its not natural for horses, cows or dogs, but it just appears. Another sign of succesful domestication.

Humans are also animals. We have evovled to prefer captivity over freedom. There si no way in hell you are going to convince me to live in my backyard and give up regular trips to McDonalds! Moderation would be nice---regular exercise and healthy food, but there isn't a much more succesful animal at breeding then humans:) We are big fat nanasy pnasy hothouse flowers compared to our wild ancetors, but we also live longer, healthier, more productive lives.

Horses are samrt enough to figure out that if preditors never go into barns, then stalls are a safe place to be. I do not condone horses being in stalls 24/7 and personally have never even seen this except in passing at Devon or somewhere ASBs in full shoes and harnesses are kept, but I am not keeping a wild animal and I am not hurting my horse by allowing him to chose comfort over the stress of heat and flies.

One thing horses are still getting used to is adapting to heat. Its bad for them. They cannot really thrive in anything over 50 degrees. Does that mean we all need to move to Alaska? No, but it does mean a horse in an air conditioned stall is being taken better care of then a horse in a hot summer southern field. Go figure.

You know what I think is the cruelest, most stressful, most unatural thing we do to our horses? Weaning. Thats completely unnatural and abusive. It in no way fits in with their socail stuctures or physiology. I mean, once you have been ripped away from your family when still a a babay and raised with nothign but other babies, you got "Lord of the Flies" right there. 12 hours in a stall every day is nothing compared to that horror! Should we let all horses stay with their familes until 4 years old like nature intended?

We are all well aware when a gene mutates for bad things---like HYPP, ESPM, or FFS, but there is no reason that genes can't mutate for adaptive things too like tolerance for stalls, eating grain, or tolerating higher temps. Thats what we select for when we force evolution on an animal.

Humans have been evolving at at in increasing rate over the last 10,000 years. Domecticationg ourselves has sped up our evolution too. Do I see it? Hell no! Did I just read a study in the Science Times showing it to be true, yes. Just using the internet can lead to previously unlikely matings:):):)


Heres where it matter that we listen to horses. I took in a rescue horse that had been raised in a wild environment. No human contact and no regular feed. She was the last of 40 horses to be captured for rescue. After a few weeks she was just like any other horse--except for one thing--she did not like to be "out" in the open. I did not listen to her, becuase, we all know horses like to be in green grass fields and see all around, I mean, I could read that anywhere. She did not want that. She wanted to spend the days hiding in the darkest, most hidden place possible. When the leaves fell from the trees in fall, she hated being exposed (I am still guessing). She smashed down the 3 board oak fence so she could run into the tangled jungle of a patch of woods behind the pastures. She eventually got hit by a car and was killed. Had I treid to see things from here point of view or had anyone told me she used to hide in the woods every time they tried to catch her, I might have known that even this wild creature wanted nothing more then a dark little hiddy hole to feel safe in.
Becuase I "knew" all about how horses should feel and think and what they want from books and not observation, I was responsible for killing a horse. She didn't have any learned behaviors--thats just the way nature (or ASB breeding) made her. No amount of company, pasture, or regular feedings would make her happier in an open fiild then in the deep dark woods during the day. I learned one thing--I have no idea what normal for a horse is.

[ProzacPuppy]

I'm sure a huge part of the stall/field issue for horses is what they used to. My TB spent ages 2-6 at tracks, stalled for a good part of the day. Once we got him he already seemed to have developed a preference for his stall even when given 12 hour turnout. He never laid down to sleep while in turnout but in his stall he'll flatten out on the shavings and even appears to dream (looks like he's running - very funny). Obviously his experience is that his stall is safe and secure, hence the dead-to-the-world equine and that he has to be vigilant while turned out.

My WB mare has been accustomed to 12 hour turnout most of her life though she is fine being stalled as well (spent 8 weeks on stall rest without pharmaceutical assistance and didn't appear stressed or upset by it at all).

Neither of my horses is much into "flight" in turnout. I've seen my mare go after a coyote with a determination to stomp him to death that was very obvious. My gelding has hardly ever turned tail and run from something that "bothers" him. He tends to stand tall and snort and paw at the "intruder" be it a cat/dog or a frightening new flowerbox.

Every horse is different.

As is every dog. I have a pack of 4 that are house dogs. Some prefer to spend more time outside, some prefer to do their business and get back inside as quickly as possible. All are quite domesticated and have adapted to human comforts. I have often entered my backyard in the summer to find 2 dogs lying on the chaise lounges and my lab floating around the pool on a raft.

Animals are quite adaptable.

[Lookout]

Horses are samrt enough to figure out that if preditors never go into barns, then stalls are a safe place to be. [QUOTE]
I sincerely and completely doubt that the horse is having this 'thought process'.
[QUOTE]
We are all well aware when a gene mutates for bad things---like HYPP, ESPM, or FFS, but there is no reason that genes can't mutate for adaptive things too like tolerance for stalls, eating grain, or tolerating higher temps. Thats what we select for when we force evolution on an animal.
A gene mutation to override the basic survival instinct? Not likely.

[equinelaw]

No, actually that thought process is just trial and error learning. Been replicated countless times in many animals. Its not calculas--its just "hey, this is good" thinking.

The whole point of having a brain capable of learning is to add to the basic hardwiring. The point of domestication is to breed for less hardwiring that we don't want.

Its all pretty basic stuff. Horses learn to over-ride their flight response in all kinds of ways--otherwise, I certainly wouldn't sit on one!

Now, are they smart enough to leave a bad owner and jump into the field of a good owner? No. They are domesticated and too stupid to figure out stuff like that, but hey, so were women until the last 50 years:)

WE have a symbiotic relationship with our animals--they trade some of their instincts for our resources. Nobody knows whose idea it was. . the horses or the humans? We just know that right around the time we figured out how to grow grain, the horses entered our lives. Hmmmmm.


Its hard to let go of good ideas. I used to laways feel guilty about pulling manes and banging tails. I mean, nature put them there for a reason right? Except donkeys, zebras and true wild horses don't have long manes. Nature didn't put em there--we did:)

[Dianna]

Ah, but the survival instinct came because they were animals of prey and that survival instinct is quite helpeful in teaching boundaries. Foals that have been imprinted seem to loose some of inborn concept of boundaries ... so, perhaps, over time, as the horses become less and less a predator, and more and more domesticated, there will be some changes in their basic wiring.

[Auventera Two]

You know what I think is the cruelest, most stressful, most unatural thing we do to our horses? Weaning. Thats completely unnatural and abusive. It in no way fits in with their socail stuctures or physiology. I mean, once you have been ripped away from your family when still a a babay and raised with nothign but other babies, you got "Lord of the Flies" right there. 12 hours in a stall every day is nothing compared to that horror! Should we let all horses stay with their familes until 4 years old like nature intended?

"Weaning" is not unnatural. Weaning at 5, 6, or 7 months old is unnatural. In the wild herd, the foal will be weaned by the time the mare is going to foal out again the following year.

We've raised a handfull of babies on our farm and we never weaned them until they were around a year old. By that time the mare was more than sick and tired of them, and had started weaning herself in most cases. She would kick or pin her ears starting around 10 or 11 months or so. Weaning has always been very stress free and easy at our farm because we've always had a decent sized her (anywhere from 7-11 horses all together.)

I think it's very hard on babies to be weaned at 5 or 6 months like a lot of people do. They're not mentally ready, and neither is the mare.

[deltawave]

Re: changes in their "wiring": I think this is already the case. They seem to willingly and cheerfully subjugate their instincts for us on a regular basis. What do you think a horse trailer "instinctually" seems like to a horse? Well, probably NOTHING in the experience of the species is quite like it, but it's confined, it's noisy, it moves, it's something they can't leave at will...and yet 99% of horses, EVEN WILD ONES, learn to cope with them lickety split if handled properly. Even get on them gladly, it appears. Why? Because the INDIVIDUAL animal's personal experience is good with trailers: they go somewhere fun, or nothing bad happens, or they are just good sports.

I don't agree that weaning foals at 6 months is necessarily hard on either mama or baby. I took my pony colt to his new home yesterday (OK, he's closer to 8 months) and he whinnied about three times and that was it. Mama whinnied twice, and went back to her hay.

[equinelaw]

I'm not knocking weaning--I see it as necassary to ensure homes for horses--but it does go against the whole natural thing.

Mare do stop nursing at 1 yeasr whent he new babay arrives, but in groups of ponies studied, they would still pop in for a drink whenever they needed reassuring and still satyed with their own family group more then mixing with the rest of the herd. They get kicked out of the herd at 4 years old.

I think 1 year is 1,000 times better then 4-6 months. Most weaning does go without horrible consequences, but its about as unnnatural for horses as you can get.
Nothing teaches boundires like an old broodmare:)

[Dianna]

This is an interesting spin on this topic, because I had often felt that if there wasn't such a big rush to pull these babies off their mom's and an even bigger rush to push them from childhood into adulthood (i.e. being broke and ridden) how many of the issues that we see in the "hot house flowers" do you think we would see if it weren't for (1) weaning long before they would customarily do it if it were up to the mare and the foal ... and (2) if we didn't rush these animals to a mental maturity that they aren't necessarily ready for at age 2 and 3.

[Lookout]

Re: changes in their "wiring": I think this is already the case. They seem to willingly and cheerfully subjugate their instincts for us on a regular basis.
Key word: subjugate. Doesn't mean the cortex isn't still sending out the instinctual danger signals, which are getting scrambled, resulting in stress hormones being released.

[Tory Relic]

they are just good sports.




I think this is very true of most horses. We have gotten much more out of them than we would have they were not so inclined.

One well-known psychic claims that horses understand their contributions to world civilization and are proud of that fact. ::shrug:: Maybe?

[deltawave]

Maybe the horses who are better "subjugators" are our low-stress, easy keeper types who don't fret themselves into a lather and develop ulcers and vices.

And maybe horse owners can be characterized the same way: those who fret over every particle of grain that goes in their bin, and who have more changes of clothes for the horse than for themselves, those who obsess over every flick of the tail or funny step, those who buy into every fad and supplement out there...vs. those who sort of just feed 'em and groom 'em and ride 'em and do what needs doing. ;) "Hard-keeper" owners, a new term! :lol:

[FleetwoodStarr]

Deltawave- you're totally on to something there!

[ProzacPuppy]

Deltawave - You are on to something. The owners that fret over every funny step or every pellet of feed are many times the people who have horses that, due to their function are put under constant "stressors" such as travel, long periods with no turnout and asked for exceptional physical efforts (Grand Prix jumpers, Rolex eventers). If they didn't manage every detail of their horse's care the horse would probably be ill prepared for competition.

Rarely does one see a horse competing at the top of its game that was just pulled in from a field or that "makes do" with primarily forage. Like human athletes, there are necessary and specific steps one needs to take to stay at the highest levels of their sport.

[deltawave]

Ah, but I would argue there can be a difference between a very conscientious owner who frets over the IMPORTANT THINGS and one who frets over whether or not the horse's pee smells different or whether or not the latest magazine article/rumor/feed fad or shoeing frenzy needs to upset their already tenuous apple cart. :)

And I also think "BNRs" are just as guilty of jumping on bandwagons without the benefit of proof--although they can perhaps be forgiven because/if they are receiving sponsorship from "Company X" and that's why they tout "Product X", even though their understanding of it may not be any better than anyone else's. But that's another topic! :lol:

I daresay you can manage every detail of a horse's life WITHOUT a lot of needless supplements, gadgets, potions, and without changing with the wind of every new horse-management trend. Horses competing at the top level might not be the best gauge of this, as many of their riders are sponsored by companies and there is that relationship: "I always use Acme brand magnets on my Grand Prix jumper!", etc. Why not look to the MANY, MANY horses who compete happily, healthily and for long and successful (if you accept "long" and "sound" as markers of success) careers on, yes, forage and a little bit of vitamins and oats. I happen to own one. :)

[pintopiaffe]

I have often entered my backyard in the summer to find 2 dogs lying on the chaise lounges and my lab floating around the pool on a raft.

:lol: :lol: :yes:

Re: weaning... there was a long-ago study (back when I still got PH, so we're talking prolly 15 years or more) that horses weaned at a younger age are more human bonded and dependant on humans. Horses left with their dams longer (6mos + ) tended to be more independant and more able to problem solve.

Plusses and minuses to both.

I like to leave foals on at least 5-6 mos, 7-8 is better, though I'm 'day weaning' by 5 or 6 to give Mum a break and try to keep weight on her (this always brings us into winter up here--hard to keep weight on a nursing mare.) They are weaned into family groups, it is all very anti-climactic.

I just bought my first baby, she was weaned around 5 mos I think, very non-stressfully... and then came up here via Equine Affaire. Took that all in stride. But it's been a very interesting thing to see her adapt and try to integrate into my herd of very different horses than what she was used to. Mine are much larger than her relatives. She certainly has exhibited a little stress, IMO. But part of that is the fact that their hay is free choice--but together. So she has had to integrate into the heirarchy in order to eat. Perhaps a weanling arriving to a stall where the food is separate with no worries is less stressful? Probably.

I definitely think the owners are higher maintenance than the horses most times.

My teacher has a barnful of imported stallions. The school stallion barn is separate from the boarding barn. The boarders all have Smartpaks and changes of blankets etc. The stallions wear one blanket, and all get a pelleted complete feed. Nothing else. They gleam and are in excellent health and weight. (everyone gets hay fed 5x/day so yes, forage based) It's interesting to see the contrast on the same farm. Same management sort of... but not really. ;)

[Tory Relic]

Ah, but I would argue there can be a difference between a very conscientious owner who frets over the IMPORTANT THINGS and one who frets over whether or not the horse's pee smells different or whether or not the latest magazine article/rumor/feed fad or shoeing frenzy needs to upset their already tenuous apple cart. :)

And I also think "BNRs" are just as guilty of jumping on bandwagons without the benefit of proof--although they can perhaps be forgiven because/if they are receiving sponsorship from "Company X" and that's why they tout "Product X", even though their understanding of it may not be any better than anyone else's. But that's another topic! :lol:

I daresay you can manage every detail of a horse's life WITHOUT a lot of needless supplements, gadgets, potions, and without changing with the wind of every new horse-management trend. Horses competing at the top level might not be the best gauge of this, as many of their riders are sponsored by companies and there is that relationship: "I always use Acme brand magnets on my Grand Prix jumper!", etc. Why not look to the MANY, MANY horses who compete happily, healthily and for long and successful (if you accept "long" and "sound" as markers of success) careers on, yes, forage and a little bit of vitamins and oats. I happen to own one. :)

Yes, indeed. I never pay much attention to what BNRs say just for that reason. I understand *why* they do it, as you described, but that doesn't mean I have to buy into the product.

I've done the somewhat obsessive route but as I've come to realize that many times less is more, I have become less so. It is good to learn and to have a solid foundation in what horse care really is, so that we can make sound decisions about the care we give. It is what separates a real horseman/woman from a mere rider.

[ProzacPuppy]

Perhaps I should have said "highest levels of amateur competition" as I realize the pros need to keep sponsors happy. If you have a horse that does all the major circuits in the A/AA levels and is away from his home stable over 70% of the time it takes alot of equine management, in partnership with your vet(s) to keep said horse happy, healthy and sane.

I agree (and know of) many people who keep their horses with minimal fuss that compete one or two weekends a month. I guess I am thinking of the "shammys" (also know many) who compete almost full time and practically live on the road. They have high dollar horses who live a very unnatural lifestyle. If under FEI rules which do not allow any of the injectable supplements (Adequan, Legend, B vitamins) the owners are forced to use many "high maintenace" methods of keeping the horse sound and prepped including acupuncture, massage, swimming etc. while also keeping the horse's energy levels up through frequent adjustments in feed. Put a hard keeper into this sort of lifestyle and it really requires constant monitoring.

[Dianna]

Well, at least the poster with the sunbathing, floating dogs isn't coming home to find a horse lounging around the pool too ...

[Ja Da Dee]

I believe that a lot of horses that used to just go "down the road" are now being diagnosed with things that can be fixed. Chiro, ulcer meds, better feeds, better worming meds all are helping our horses live longer and healthier.

I do believe that there is a serious problem with overweight horses now. I've had the weight discussion with my vet regarding feeding my air-fern. He said that when he started working as a vet, he saw a lot of thin horses, and worked with their owners on a good feed program to bring the horses weight up. Now, he sees more obese horses than thin ones... the opposite problem. I have a devil of a time keeping my horse at a good weight, he hates being on dry-lot half days in the summer (begs everyone walking by to move him), if he was on 24/7 pasture he wouldn't be able to fit through the barn door. God Bless the horse that was bred to work all day, but dang, they are hard to keep at a healthy weight when they aren't working.

[Bluey]

I agree with horses, as people, being many overweight today.
I have pictures riding 40-50 years ago and those horses look right down weedy and skinny, but they worked hard and stayed sound and healthy forever.
We had some old schoolies participating in endurance rides in their late teens.
Today, we would laugh at those horses, how sorry they looked, lighter of bone, narrow and not an extra ounce on them, but they stayed with you all day long.

Many of today's horses are ridden maybe one hour a day and many not most days.
They are fed very well and many are heavier set horses to start with, so they carry more muscle, bone and fat over all that too.

To answer the question the OP posed, I don't think we can compare, because we have generally a different type of horse today and use and manage them differently.