Horse kicking passenger while driving - You Tube video

[MSP]

What is your take on this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0xnKnUOndI&NR=1

I have never seen anything like this before; guess I just never thought about it. So is this rare in driving or has it ever happened to you?

I found this video while looking at a video posted on the Off Course forum.

[Renae]

That same video has been posted and discussed here before, searching te driving forum for the word kick quickly found the old thread http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=114159&highlight=kick

[MSP]

OK, sorry I missed it. I'll head back over to Off Course where we love to discuss the same thing over and over! :winkgrin:

[pricestory]

Come visit anytime.

[MSP]

Gee, thanks and I was feeling unwelcome. Imagine that!

Someone feeling unwelcome on the Driving forum! :lol:

Seems we have had this discussion before perhaps some one can search and see if they find any threads about that in Driving.;)

[Renae]

:rolleyes: The exact thing had already been discussed at length and I linked you to the discussion.

[MSP]

Many things get discussed at length over and over again. Whether the poster just missed the thread or would like to open it up for discussion.

I have posted about the wagon style in-line horse trailer before but found no need to dig up all the threads about it and post them. I added my comment to the new thread as I am sure you have done on other threads.

Perhaps I mis-read your post but it seemed to me you just declared this topic all done.

I would think I could spend the day in this forum searching the topics of all these threads and declaring them discussed. How come you don't do this in the other forums?

[pricestory]

MSP, luckily it hasn't happened to us or we wouldn't admit it if it had. Is shows very poor training and very poor safety practices. Both the horses and the people will probably not be driving again.
As a whole, drivers are a cautious bunch. When a horse throws a rider, it is a loose horse. When a driver isn't in the carriage, it is a horse with a 350lb weapon attached.

[Renae]

Why don't you read the posts on the first topic on this subject and then ask questions if you have any rather than making people who have already weighed in on the subject repeat themself? There aren't as many regiualr posters in the driving section and sometimes you do see posts go unanswered because the same people get tired of typing the same things over and over again.

[katarine]

MSP you are hunting for a fight - good lord you got a LINK to a lengrthy discussion and that makes you mad or unwelcome? sand in your cereal this morning or what?

I read here and never found it a 'mean' forum. Picky- but drivers need to be picky...umm, where's this strap go? oh, who knows, let's just leave it off...:D"

[MSP]

MSP, luckily it hasn't happened to us or we wouldn't admit it if it had. Is shows very poor training and very poor safety practices. Both the horses and the people will probably not be driving again.
As a whole, drivers are a cautious bunch. When a horse throws a rider, it is a loose horse. When a driver isn't in the carriage, it is a horse with a 350lb weapon attached.

Thanks for commenting! It bothers me a little that you don't think anyone would comment if it had happened to them and that it only can happen as a result of poor training or safety. I have seen all levels of trained horses freak unexpectedly over the years and wouldn't necessarily blame the trainer or handler for it.

I believe My sparrow posted on the other thread that the driver did in deed drive this horse again successfully.

I found the video very disturbing to the point of questioning whether I really want to ever drive my filly given her nature.

[MSP]

MSP you are hunting for a fight - good lord you got a LINK to a lengrthy discussion and that makes you mad or unwelcome? sand in your cereal this morning or what?

I read here and never found it a 'mean' forum. Picky- but drivers need to be picky...umm, where's this strap go? oh, who knows, let's just leave it off...:D"

Thanks! No I am not looking for a fight but I did asks some different questions about the video that was not addressed in the other thread. I think that many of the posters in the driving forum tend to have the same perspective on things and many times it is highly elevated. A lengthy thread? That thread was 14 post and one page long hardly lengthy by COTH standards.

Posters with out expert opinion are some times passed over. For example on the linked thread there was a poster that commented they had a similar experience while driving. So how do you think that poster felt based on these comments? MIdeafhorserider hasn't been back to the COTH since posting on that thread.

I just find it amazing that the folks that train horses and drive every day for years have never had this happen to them. What no learning curve on driving? Horses once trained properly to drive never act badly , never spook and never do anything wrong unless a person makes them.

What I wanted to know was yeah this can happen if you don't do this or this. Or yeah this can happen but if you do your home work it is very unlikely.


Here is an example: I sent my filly to a trainer to be started under saddle. He says "if I do my home work she won't buck, some do but if prepared properly the majority don't". Now my filly's breeder sent a gelding off to him to be started. He started him the same way as my filly but he bucked and he took longer to get started. And even after two months with the trainer while on a trail ride he was startled by a deer and he reacted by bucking violently. He threw the trainer and the trainer at that point kind of gave up on the horse. Now I don't think he could train the horse any differently that would have prevented the horse from bucking. The horse has some issues and perhaps if he gets a lot of time in the saddle can work out of it. The point here is it can happen but probably doesn't happen too often.

If this horse was being trained to drive what would have been any different?

[MySparrow]

Whoa, guys, whoa. MSP is a friend of mine and I did think our response to her was terse to the point of being unwelcoming. Back down. She asked a legitimate question and deserves a friendly response. MSP is a longtime driver and owns the oldest, most beautiful, youngest-looking 35-year-old horse I've ever seen, an OTB SB. She drove him till he retired. She knows her stuff and has things to share.

That was a pretty disturbing video. I revisited it when MSP posted the link. Yikes. No wonder we all get tetchy around it, eh? It's actually the driver who got kicked, not the passenger. A miracle that he survived!

Enjoy this beautiful day! You're always welcome here, MSP!

[Drive NJ]

Not sure where the entrenched positions on both sides of the should we re-discuss this here are coming from (this group also discuss the same thing over again and sometimes get new input). But that's not productive conversation, so lets move on to your question, which seems to be whether this is a common occurance and whether a horse with a tendency to buck and/or kick can be trained to drive with more training?

This is not a common occurance though it does happen from time to time.

While I guess you could try training the horse through a tendency to buck/kick, but I probably wouldn't. Horses that respond to new input by bucking and kicking are not usually considered good candidates for driving. IMHO there would have to be a real good reason for me to want to get behind a horse that commonly kicks and bucks in a carriage.

If you DID decide to work through it with an experienced trainer, hopefully you can solve the issue during ground work or while working as a single with a kicking strap. As Price said, its just too easy for things to escalate when you add in the carriage so we try to avoid the problem in the first place where possible.

[MSP]

Whoa, guys, whoa. MSP is a friend of mine and I did think our response to her was terse to the point of being unwelcoming. Back down. She asked a legitimate question and deserves a friendly response. MSP is a longtime driver and owns the oldest, most beautiful, youngest-looking 35-year-old horse I've ever seen, an OTB SB. She drove him till he retired. She knows her stuff and has things to share.

That was a pretty disturbing video. I revisited it when MSP posted the link. Yikes. No wonder we all get tetchy around it, eh? It's actually the driver who got kicked, not the passenger. A miracle that he survived!

Enjoy this beautiful day! You're always welcome here, MSP!

Playing referee again! ;) I seem to get into trouble when I post out here.

This video kind of makes me look at driving in a new way and not a good one. I really am having a hard time; thinking that if the right button was pressed any horse could react this way.

If I had seen this video when I was 14 I probably never would have taken that first drive! I trusted Ace 100% and couldn't imagine him doing this but I have seen him kick, Ive been on him when he spooked and spun me off like a bull; so I started thinking any horse is capable of this. Then I thought about my independent minded little cow horse who kicks every time I tack her up. Hmm, maybe I will pass on driving her!

[pricestory]

This all brings up another point but I will submit it as another thread "Why driving horses stand" and others (event horses) don't.

[MSP]

Not sure where the entrenched positions on both sides of the should we re-discuss this here are coming from (this group also discuss the same thing over again and sometimes get new input). But that's not productive conversation, so lets move on to your question, which seems to be whether this is a common occurance and whether a horse with a tendency to buck and/or kick can be trained to drive with more training?

This is not a common occurance though it does happen from time to time.

While I guess you could try training the horse through a tendency to buck/kick, but I probably wouldn't. Horses that respond to new input by bucking and kicking are not usually considered good candidates for driving. IMHO there would have to be a real good reason for me to want to get behind a horse that commonly kicks and bucks in a carriage.

If you DID decide to work through it with an experienced trainer, hopefully you can solve the issue during ground work or while working as a single with a kicking strap. As Price said, its just too easy for things to escalate when you add in the carriage so we try to avoid the problem in the first place where possible.

I did a little googling based on your last paragraph; wondering if many do this. I found two farm sites with kicking stories and mention of the kick strap.

http://www.bowersfarm.com/articl02.html

http://www.axwoodfarm.com/Library.php?inc=14

Then this mini cart popped up although I don't see how it affords much protection from kicking.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Orange-Miniature-Horse-cart_W0QQitemZ270200494793QQihZ017QQcategoryZ64654 QQcmdZViewItem

[goodhors]

This is not a common occurance though it does happen from time to time.

While I guess you could try training the horse through a tendency to buck/kick, but I probably wouldn't. Horses that respond to new input by bucking and kicking are not usually considered good candidates for driving. IMHO there would have to be a real good reason for me to want to get behind a horse that commonly kicks and bucks in a carriage.

If you DID decide to work through it with an experienced trainer, hopefully you can solve the issue during ground work or while working as a single with a kicking strap. As Price said, its just too easy for things to escalate when you add in the carriage so we try to avoid the problem in the first place where possible.


MSP, are you planning to drive a Pair? The horse shown in the video is in a Pair, not used as a Single. There are options for Singles, that Pairs can't use.

DNJ metions the kicking strap above, very popular with folks starting single horses, under the theory that horse is unrewarded if he can't kick, so he quits. Kicking strap helps prevent horse from learning how to kick with cart, so he can't revert to this behaviour later. He never damages cart kicking, doesn't hurt him self either, is better able to go thru learning stages unharmed. Those concerned with Driving safety in all situations, use kicking straps daily. They make a kicking strap part of their regular equipment in all driving outings.

I can see their reasoning, would not look down on those who use the strap. Better to be safe than sorry, EVER. We have a kicking strap, but it is expected to be used, then eventually left off. An aid whose time comes and goes, in our expectations of a driving horse.

We go along with DNJ, endeavor to choose horses that do not react to situations with panic. Also horses that do not get angry, lash out when things make them unhappy. Innate things on individual horses are seldom changed, like kick reactions if startled or angry.

We work very hard when testing new horses to purchase. Try all the tests, ideas we know, to get into his head in short times of "looking at him". None of the horses we find are EVER close to home, so one visit is all you get. This is after we have already evaluated horse for size, color, stride, temperment, skills, with previews on video footage. Husband has a good feel for a horse that suits him. The driving failures were still very nice horses, but not going to work for us or our wants. Some just DON'T want to drive. You have to recognize the difference between a training step with problems, and a problem with horse who is not liking the work.

We drive multiples, so we can NOT have ANY P***Y attitude by the horse. No crabby days allowed, for any reason. I find it hard to believe the video horse kicked for the first time that day. He had to have given clues about kicking problem before, but no one listened or fixed the situation. I am afraid we would be rather harsh with a horse who got light behind in the Multiples, gave ANY CLUES that he would be kicking after he had previously been just fine in training.

We sold a horse who was unreliable in harness. We never got him hitched to a cart. He is flawless under saddle, NEVER picks up a foot to argue. He did not like driving, objected strongly when you didn't expect it. He didn't care about harness, straps between his legs, pulling weight, noise. He just would say "I'm done" and you could do nothing about it. Sure not worth the effort to MAKE him drive. That thinking will hurt or kill you.

We sold him on to a girl who loves him, he likes her a lot too. Make a great riding pair. He passed all our driving tests with flying colors when we tried him out as a prospect. There is just something inside him that didn't want to drive. We have his 1/2 brother, a SUPERB driving horse who is also a good riding horse. Blood helps, but each horse is an individual. Our mare pair came from a stallion who drove well. However we went thru 4 of his fillies to get 2 who drove well. One went on to do Dressage, the other Evented, both did very well in their fields of skill. Neither wanted to drive, said so LOUD.

I have to trust our horse to keep his brain screwed in, react to his extensive basic training and conditioning in all situations. I may have to hop down, fix a problem between a Pair or the 4. Can't have one kicking me to pieces in there. Or even thinking he MIGHT be touchy, kicky, while I work between them. SCARY thought. May happen on a CDE Hazard or even a Pleasure drive or picnic. We are hard in asking our horses for a lot. We give them great basics, try to have them accepting of all things we may ask of him. He needs to follow directions, stand and wait, step over, because he is trained that way. "YES BOSS". We expect obedience of him EVERY TIME WE ASK, nothing less is acceptable. Bad things happen when you start accepting less obedience from horse in any situation.

I would not want any horse in front of me who was "forced" to learn driving or iffy in his driving skills.

Driving is a place you can't be sentimental about the horse's feelings, reactions. You have to be clear eyed in evaluating a Driving prospect, decide what you can live with in him or not. Every horse has some holes, some are acceptable, others make him wash out of our program. The Driving horse has to be much more trained, accepting of all sorts of odd things, than the riding horse does, to be just a GOOD Driving horse. The really EXCELLENT Driving horses are marvelous.

[fourh mom]

Man. I didn't see the old thread and would never have thought to search for 'kicking cart horse'. <lol> So... thanks, MSP for the link to this video.

It is really awful to watch - those kicks sound like gunshots. Would that be her hitting the wooden cart? Not to mentio the driver's face and it seems the passenger's arms/hands.

Poor second horse is just standing there going, "What????"


I understand what DriveNJ means by a horse who has a tendency to buck/kick to new (unpleasant/scary) stimuli. While any horse can and will buck or kick... some horses just have it in their nature as First Line of Defense. Some will run. Some will rear. Others run backwards.

It would seem that the ones who spook/startle-in-place and/or stop-and-stare are better suited to a life in the traces. :) sylvia

[Drive NJ]

MSP said "Then I thought about my independent minded little cow horse who kicks every time I tack her up. Hmm, maybe I will pass on driving her!"

Your instincts are good here. I would agree she's not an ideal candidate for a driving horse. As Goodhorse points out a lot of horses scrub out of driving and some more probably should. Some folks can get iffy horses to drive, but its likely they will never be that steady horse.

[zinnniaz]

This video kind of makes me look at driving in a new way and not a good one. I really am having a hard time; thinking that if the right button was pressed any horse could react this way.

While any horse *could*, I don't think all WOULD. I know many driving horses and I watch the green ones and the well seasoned ones and the ones being trained. I don't think the ones who have a quick 'kick buck' response are the ones that end up making it as driving horses.

My old mare just was not that kind of reactor. We were once chased by a dog while riding down the road. The dog came at her and bit her in the heels. She was a driving horse. She didn't kick out at all. She tucked her butt a little and took a fast step. But she just wasn't a kicker at all.

So I guess the trick is to figure out what kind of horse you have. If they are kicky, well, take your time.

[MIdeafhorserider]

Zinnniaz,

What kind of your horse? curious

[Thomas_1]

I wouldn't tolerate a horse that looked to kick out for no reason. I'd consider it had vital gaps in its training.

I'd consider a riding horse looking to kick or kicking out when its tacked up to be an ill-trained puke. I've done a heck of a lot of remedial training of those spoilt horses.

Worst I've come across were a memorable pair of hunters about 4 years ago - owned by the same lady had multiple "problems" and they both kicked out when you rugged or unrugged them. They were IMO so dangerous that I wouldn't let the majority of my staff anywhere near them. Anyway one day I'd brought one in and was unrugging it in the stable and watching out that the 16.2 hand ill trained puke didn't catch me with its leg when it then turned round and grabbed me with its teeth on my shoulder! Fortunately it was February and I was wearing a mass of clothing and including a huge quilted shooting jacket with reinforced shoulder padding underneath a waxed coat which had a mass of lining. Even so it ripped my top jacket and bruised my shoulder!

Just last August I had a Dutch Warmblood Mare here for a week (from Holland) and that thing was also a beast! When it was rugged it also had legs flying about everywhere and an owner that just kept out of the way and made no attempt whatsoever to train the horse! In my experience its HUGE mistake to neglect to train a horse so its not doing such likes. Its an accident waiting to happen.

However IMO its nothing to do with a badly trained horse if a horse kicks out at say a dog that attacks it or if something rams into the back of it - whether that's a carriage or another horse. In that case its just a horse attempting to look after itself and entirely understandable.

[kearleydk]

Thomas, What is the rest of the story? What did you do with those kicking/biting horses?
Dick

[MySparrow]

Thomas, What is the rest of the story? What did you do with those kicking/biting horses?
Dick

Yes, please! Inquiring minds, you know!

[MSP]

My filly is probably the best trained horse I have ever owned. She is also the first cow horse I have ever owned and I can tell you they are like no other horse I have ever delt with. She has been reprimanded from the beginning for this behavior and knows its coming. She is consistent and requires one to two reprimands when being groomed or handled. Her response to ground work has never changed; ears pinned and very reluctant to do as you ask. She will not face you in the stall and I can tell you the trainer I sent her to wasn't able to change her personality either.

They are free thinking processing not reactive horses and if you start a fight with them you will loose. They like a good reason for what you are asking them to do; ground work makes no sense to them!

Once the bridle is on her demeanor changes to a quiet willing mount. She is a great reliable ride and has a good mind. When on a cow she pins her ears and is very aggressive.

I am friends with her breeder and I can tell you these qualities run in the family. They have had disastrous results when sending their horses to the wrong trainer. They really require a trainer that specializes in foundation QHs. It has been a learning experience but what it comes down to is accepting them for what they are and working with rather than fighting it.

This reminds me how people are always telling me I need to discipline my son more because of his bad behavior when actually his behavior is because of his neurological condition/disability. It is his nature we must find a way to work with it not try to squeeze him into a uniform mold. Same with my filly.

[Renae]

We have also had the discussion on the driving forum of different breeds are bred for different things. There are breeds with a long heritage of being bred for driving, with temperament and body type suitable to driving always being on the minds of breeders, and how by choosing a horse of one of these breeds you are more likely to get a good driving horse, not guranteed, but definatly much more likely. The stock horse breeder breeding for cutting/working horses is not thinking about traits desirable for driving when they breed their horses.

[MSP]

When you can only afford one or two horses you try to make them as versatile as possible. I think a stock horse could make a good driving horse if their personality allowed it. I didn't buy my filly for driving I bought her for versatility ranch, team penning, roping and trail.

I will probably just get another Standardbred some day that can double as husband horse and my driving horse. Straight from the track all trained to drive and ready to go!

Thats if I can get this video out of my head and enjoy driving again! The sound affects are horrific!

[War Admiral]

Just as a heads-up, though, the thing about OTSTBs is that you have to pretty much retrain them to use their muscles entirely differently than they do when racing. Price can probably help you with that! :cool:

Actually one of the nicest Training level dressage tests I ever saw at a CDE was by an Appy from out west. There are plenty of stock types out there that can drive and do it well enough for most of us to stay entertained.

[MSP]

Just as a heads-up, though, the thing about OTSTBs is that you have to pretty much retrain them to use their muscles entirely differently than they do when racing. Price can probably help you with that! :cool:



Been their done that!:D

My gelding came off the track as a 4 year old and I worked him back to racing condition and handed him back to my cousin the trainer. I missed him more than I could bare and begged to get him back.

We have had many adventures together driving on roads and back woods trails, dressage, jumping and trail riding. He is now 34 and will turn 35 in May!

[War Admiral]

Awwww, great story!! I've never owned an STB but I have NEVER met one I didn't like. Fun heese!! :D

[Thomas_1]

What do you guys think of Morgans as stock horses?

I've done cattle work on some VERY nice Morgans over there and they struck me as being more than just adequate at that job. Indeed they were intelligent, biddable, quick and brave.

Got to say that I think a 4 year old off the track is not the best idea for a driving newbie.

[War Admiral]

Fine by me. I think Morgans used to be used for stock work a lot more many decades ago than they are now (at least, I haven't seen one since the 1960s!), but only b/c there are so many *more* QH than Morgans on the ground.

[Renae]

Morgans can make handy little horses for ranch horse shows and team penning and are heavy enough to rope off of. The Brunk, Government and Waorking Western lines are most noted for this. I think Flyhawk was probably the epitome to me of what a Morgan horse is. Sites on Working Western Morgans http://www.2wfmorganclub.com/ http://www.sportmorgan.com/families/index.html

And yes, I think on average you are far more likely to find a working western bred Morgan that makes a good driving horse than a working bred Quarter Horse. The working bred Quarter Horses have gotten so they are bred like race horses, with 1 event in mind, even cutting horses and reining horses are different lines within Quarter Horse lines, as well as all-around/roping/ranch horses. I have 3 Quarter Horses on the place right now, only 1 of them would I trust to hook a cart too!

[Cattail]

Any horse is capable of that action or reaction and we should not forget it. They are powerful animals with small brains. We should always respect that fact. I am new to driving but a horsewoman from way back. As soon as we forget that we need to respect them and pay attention, we are in trouble and asking to be hurt .

[Thomas_1]

Glad to hear you guys are in accord with my thinking.

I'd have thought a Morgan would have been a much better proposition for the OP.

[MSP]

I like Morgans but I don't think I have seen one in the 11 years I have lived in MS. I think it's been near 20 years since I have seen a non-performance bred Morgan.

Any how, this is a case of when in Rome! We have a lot of AQHA shows and a big population of Western riders and local western events. That coupled with the availability of inexpensive horses I went with a QH. I had the chance to get a very nicely bred QH foal from a friend. If I had to buy my filly now she would be way out of my price range.