Outside hoof wall seems to be collapsing.. * Update Jan 12th*

[LivviesMom]

I am looking for a few discussion boards that deal with hooves and trimming.

My coming three year old has always had great feet, but due to an inattentive farrier ( despite me getting after him repeatedly about it) it seems that her foot is rolling over onto her outside hoof wall in her left hind. I have switched farriers and we are working to resolve it. My fear is that the bigger she gets, the more stressed her hock and joints will be.I have put off backing her as I don't want any extra stress on the joint.
My farrier thinks the only way to bring her heel back out to normal may be to shoe her hinds.. we are trying to avoid it, so I'm looking for other opinions. Thankfully my farrier is wonderful and is open to suggestions and is also consulting with a few colleagues..

I will try to take pictures and post here but am looking for other places to get opinions.

Thanks!

Edited to add Link to Pics and video- 4 phots with brief blurbs..

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2380953770081299973zCLyig

Video- kind of hard but if you watch her left hind closely it rolls over to the outside slightly..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOGySqXZwZU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ-CnThAh7k

[LMH]

It sounds like a medial/lateral imbalance that might be showing its face because of bad trimming (as you mentioned) and a possible conformation issue that makes it worse when the trim goes south.

Have no fear! I have had wonky feet get right in order with good trimming and some patience.

Looking forward to your photos-please make sure you are ON the ground when you take them...looking down on the hoof causes too much distortion.

[LivviesMom]

I will try to take some tomorrow.. but I'll take a video of her walking as well so you can see exactly what I mean by "rolling over" it really bothers me as she has always had good round feet.. no lameness issues except one abcess 2 years ago.. *touch wood*. Conformationally she is quite correct.. previous farrier chalked it up to the way she stands when grazing... which I can accept to a certian degree, but not full responsibility..

Just remembered.. Farrier is coming tomorrow! crap...I'll try to get them tonight..

[LMH]

Quick question-you mention she has good round feet, but you refer to the rolling over on her hinds.

Fronts should be more round, hinds should be more oval...just to clarify:)

Since she is correct from a conformation standpoint, it sounds like something just started to go south...and if it was correct, assuming no HUGE injuries since then, it can come back :)

[goeslikestink]

and if you shoe her hinds shes unlevel better to shoe all 4
lmh is correct fronts are roundish hinds are oval shape

[LMH]

You know I have always wondered about the shoe half the horse...while it seems more common to shoe fronts and leave hinds bare...

Is there some benefit to shoeing backs and leaving fronts bare? I really don't have the answer to that and always wanted to know?

[LivviesMom]

I would really prefer not to shoe all four but we'll see what farrier says tomorrow. Last thing she needs is hind shoes to make her more bum high!:lol:
LMH -yes I should mention that her fronts are nice and round, her hinds are more oval, but the left hind wall and heel seem to have come slightly under the hoof!. just the one though.. her right hind is normal. If you look at her frog the V is off set and not in the middle of the hoof. I bugged and bugged the last farrier to start correcting it, and it did improve slightly, but said farrier apparently thought he knew better. I am not picky and difficult but Ihave been around horses long enough to know what a proper trim looks like.
Thankfully I am back to my original and amazing farrier after a barn move.

I have arranged for photos and video to be taken tonight as I have plans for my mothers birthday dinner.

[Melissa.Hare.Jones]

www.horseshoes.com (http://www.horseshoes.com)

Many different discussion boards. Look for Farriers Helping Horse Owners with Balance Issues...

Excellent advice from some very good farriers. Be ready to post pics and xrays if you have them.

[EqTrainer]

You know I have always wondered about the shoe half the horse...while it seems more common to shoe fronts and leave hinds bare...

Is there some benefit to shoeing backs and leaving fronts bare? I really don't have the answer to that and always wanted to know?


We have shod horses behind only. Stifle problems, NCB's, that sort of thing.

[LMH]

Stifle...that is a good one.

NCB?

[EqTrainer]

Sorry. Bad acronym. Negative Coffin Bone Plane.

[LMH]

Ah...ok...another good one!:)

So I can sleepp well tonight having reasons!:lol:

[LivviesMom]

added pics to first post..

[J.D.]

:no:horse is bow legged. add some flat plates on behind ; no traction. Will have hock problems when the horse grows up; sorry

[EqTrainer]

Ok, I don't have time to watch video's so just going to comment on when I see this trimming.

What I usually see is that one side of the foot has become more upright and the other is functioning as a big flare. The trimmer keeps balancing the foot *to the flare* instead of trimming down the high wall as much as possible and removing the flare until it is off the ground so that the separation in it stops.

If the flare is not removed, then the separation becomes painful. Horse begins to roll over the high wall. High wall starts to roll under.

Cure: take the flare off, lower the wall that is high.

Re: bowlegged horses.. as will all conformation issues, they will have a propensity to have joint problems. But since no horse has perfect conformation (or at least those that most of us can afford) I would get the trim fixed and keep her balanced and see how she turns out. We had a 25 year old pony who was bowlegged (wide behind at the hocks) and he was still packing children around... as far as I know, he still is ;)

[Rusty Stirrup]

A picture from the shoulder down straight on would be helpful.

[LMH]

Actually a sole shot would be great as well.

That just does not appear to be a difficult issue to fix. That foot is just not being balanced correctly.

[JHUshoer20]

From what you've posted it appears your problem is higher up.

You've got a lateral heel contracting for some reason. Makes me suspect sidebones maybe? Would need an x-ray to know for sure. If is that shoes can help. If not they really wont matter but need to try to stop and reverse the contraction somehow.

To me it appears the pastern is what's not straight. The hoof it appeared the guy did best he could with what he had to work with. As far as the trim goes they look pretty good for being so many weeks out. I'd vote for getting a vet to take an x-ray then go from there.

As far as shoes on hinds only- its done occasionally on reiners, calf ropers, etc. Is a temporary thing in their training and not something done pemanently.
George

[LivviesMom]

Interesting. My current farrier is doing his best to correct. I trust him competely as he is well recommended by vets for corrective work. When he trims her you barely notice the issue.
Conformationally. she is not perfect but her hind legs are actually pretty correct. She is definitely not Bow legged.
She also receives chiropractic work to keep her alligned.. shes a bit of a roughhouser in the paddock.

LMH - I think I got a sole shot.. I'll try to post it.

To me its just odd that her feet have always been absolutely fine. My current farrier ( who was her first before I had to move to another due to a barn change) had always remarked she had great feet for a TB lol..

Shes getting a trim today.. maybe I can get a few after shots to compare..
Next time the vet is out I'll ask him to take a look and see what he thinks as well.

Because of the way the foot is now It tends to wear faster, by the time shes due fr a trim it is more pronounced, it also affects the way she walks which wears the foot down.. its a cycle.. we're thinking that shoes could perhaps stop the wear and eventually pull the heel out a bit.. but we'll see.

[CookiePony]

To my eye it looks like the inside wall is higher than the outside-- is that where you see the flare, EqT? At any rate, the whole foot looks to be pushed over to the outside by that high inside wall. And both heels look too tall. A better-balanced trim will help a lot!

[Su Valley]

I agree with EqT, you have a flare issue that is not being addressed as it should. This is very noticeable to me, because the hairline shows it so plainly.

What is the trim cycle? I have a hunch it is not often enough to gain ground on this. JMO

[LivviesMom]

I agree with EqT, you have a flare issue that is not being addressed as it should. This is very noticeable to me, because the hairline shows it so plainly.

What is the trim cycle? I have a hunch it is not often enough to gain ground on this. JMO

Thats what I'm thinking... she's on a 7-8 week cycle with four others. I'm thinking she maybe needs to go every 6 weeks.. Although my farrier is wonderful and will come out to trim her whenever I ask him.. I'm thinking that she is wearing the outside due to the way shes moving.. ( i also think she needs a chiro appointment) or possibly needs a massage to loosen up some stiff muscles.. and by the time shes comes due for a trim its really noticeable.

I'll talk to farrier today about trimming more frequently as well..

[LivviesMom]

Actually a sole shot would be great as well.

That just does not appear to be a difficult issue to fix. That foot is just not being balanced correctly.

Just for you!

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2328890790081299973ixplGV

[Auventera Two]

I can't view any of your photos, but I will say that 7-8 weeks is usually too long for most horses. I trim horses every 4 to 6 weeks, max. Good luck getting your horse back in shape! :)

[LivviesMom]

I can't view any of your photos, but I will say that 7-8 weeks is usually too long for most horses. I trim horses every 4 to 6 weeks, max. Good luck getting your horse back in shape! :)

yes that it typical however in Liv's case although she had good solid feet, she didn't always grow enough to be trimmed so she was put on a 7-8 week schedule. but I think she should maybe go every 6 and have the foot balanced more frequently..

[LMH]

Wow...does that solar shot surprise anyone else but me? I certainly didn't expect a nice full frog like that.

*I* think, just from the photos, there is just too much foot overall...too much inside foot, too much heel and toes are not backed up enough...

Even if the problem is farther up the leg, there is enough imbalance in that foot, and enough material there that over time big corrections could be made.

I would be curious what the collateral groove depth is on the medial side vs. the lateral side.

Livvie do you know how to measure that? In a nutshell you would lay a flat edge across the heels (rasp or anything)...then measure the depth of each valley on the sides of the frog up tp the rasp you laid across the heels.

I would be interested in the depth closest to the heels. If this makes no sense I can try again or someone can jump in and explain it better.

[LivviesMom]

Wow...does that solar shot surprise anyone else but me? I certainly didn't expect a nice full frog like that.

*I* think, just from the photos, there is just too much foot overall...too much inside foot, too much heel and toes are not backed up enough...

Even if the problem is farther up the leg, there is enough imbalance in that foot, and enough material there that over time big corrections could be made.

I would be curious what the collateral groove depth is on the medial side vs. the lateral side.

Livvie do you know how to measure that? In a nutshell you would lay a flat edge across the heels (rasp or anything)...then measure the depth of each valley on the sides of the frog up tp the rasp you laid across the heels.

I would be interested in the depth closest to the heels. If this makes no sense I can try again or someone can jump in and explain it better.

Well thats the thing.. and it frustrates me that she has always had pretty good feet. Shes never been lame other than getting kicked in the field last winter in a different leg altogether. She had an abcess as a yearling. In another foot lol. But the previous farrier chalked it up to how she grazes and never did anything to correct it, but then I had to chase him to get her trimmed in the first place and he lived on the property..:no:

I think I agree her toe is a touch too long. I will try to measure that for you LMH, I understood your explanation. I'll also take a few after shots tonight aswell. And in all Honesty, she was last trimmed Nov 10th and due Dec 21st (wait that it 6 weeks..sorry late night last night- I'll wake up I promise!) But the move to the new barn caused us to reschedule..

[caballus]

I took the liberty to copy a few of the photos and mark them for you. It's a bit easier to "see" on the actual hoof: Go to: http://www.barefoottrim.com/2008/forums/livviesmom/livviesmom1-4-08.htm

Also, you might wanna go to http://www.barefoottrim.com and click on the article about BALANCE ... that will show what things *should* look like.

Hope this is helpful to you.

[MassageLady]

I don't know why 'shoe' has become a 'four letter word'. I shoe my horse that foundered slightly before I bought him, he get's pads to help him walk over the gravel on the trail rides. If this will help the horse become straight again, I don't know why you aren't doing it.

[LivviesMom]

I took the liberty to copy a few of the photos and mark them for you. It's a bit easier to "see" on the actual hoof: Go to: http://www.barefoottrim.com/2008/forums/livviesmom/livviesmom1-4-08.htm

Also, you might wanna go to http://www.barefoottrim.com and click on the article about BALANCE ... that will show what things *should* look like.

Hope this is helpful to you.

Thats very interesting! Thank You! I'm happy to know it can be resolved.. should have been taken care of over a year ago... when I first asked.

[JB]

If this will help the horse become straight again, I don't know why you aren't doing it.

Shoes won't help this foot become straight, fixing the trim will. Besides, who said shoes were evil on this thread?

Whether shoes can help speed up the process is something I can't answer. I would suspect not, since you can't trim nearly as often as you *might* need to to fix this imbalance.

[LivviesMom]

I don't know why 'shoe' has become a 'four letter word'. I shoe my horse that foundered slightly before I bought him, he get's pads to help him walk over the gravel on the trail rides. If this will help the horse become straight again, I don't know why you aren't doing it.

I'm not opposed to shoes... it something I KNOW she will need eventually for the hunter ring. i just didn't want to put them on her before she truly needed them.. and right now she doesn't absolutely need them. But if my farrier tells me Jen.. i think we really should put shoes on her to minimize the wear to that side of her foot to get her balanced again, then I will do it. But the other factor is the barn I am at will not turn her out in a group with hind shoes.. if shes needs them she needs them, i'd just like her to be a youngster a little longer.. lol

[LivviesMom]

Shoes won't help this foot become straight, fixing the trim will. Besides, who said shoes were evil on this thread?

Whether shoes can help speed up the process is something I can't answer. I would suspect not, since you can't trim nearly as often as you *might* need to to fix this imbalance.

I think this is absolutely true. Lets see how this trim goes.I'll post a few after shots and you guys can tell me what you think.

[JB]

I'm not opposed to shoes... it something I KNOW she will need eventually for the hunter ring.
I'm quite curious why you KNOW this :) Truly, I am not trying to start an argument. I am always interested in the thought process behind someone saying "Oh, when I start riding I'll have to put shoes on" or "Oh, when I start jumping I'll have to put shoes on".

[LivviesMom]

I'm quite curious why you KNOW this :) Truly, I am not trying to start an argument. I am always interested in the thought process behind someone saying "Oh, when I start riding I'll have to put shoes on" or "Oh, when I start jumping I'll have to put shoes on".

lol I understand, ok well I guess I can't say with 100% accuracy.. but her dam and sire both required shoes for riding, could not be left unshod. Plus with varying competition surfaces i like being able to use corks if necessary. i will leave her unshod as long as I possibly can.. I hope I can leave her completely natural to be honest but I think she will need them eventually.

[caballus]

I think that if you are able to get the hooves balanced and leveled properly, according to each hoof on the individual horse, couple that with plenty of movement on varied ground (especially hard, firm ground) that you'll be pleasantly surprised with your horse's hooves. You may even find you won't have to shoe her at all. But that's JMHO. *grin*

[Pippigirl]

Do you have any pictures of the horse after trimming? It would be interesting to see how the horse moves once the excess bar material has been trimmed off. It looks like the bar material has spread down around the apex of the frog. If the bars have been trimmed back to halfway down the frog (towards the heel) and at level or slightly lower than the outside wall, the horse may become more comfortable in the heels (assuming the heels are of equal heights).

Do you have any new pics of after the trim?

[LMH]

Is that material bar material? I would bet it is false sole...laid down to support lack of correct structure elsewhere...likely from the forward toe, stretching and thining the sole...and possibly from lack of inner wall (the water line...which stratum is that?;))...that is resopnsible for absorbing concussion...when the foot gets back in order, that material WILL go away on its own.

If it is removed prematurely it can lame the snot out of a horse and even cause the whole foot to go splat, losing all concavity.

Just my experience.:)

[LMH]

I wanted to add-in addition to the articles at equinepodiatry.net, Pete Ramey has several excellent articles at http://www.hoofrehab.com

He has TONS of photos and the articles will help you start to wrap your mind around all this stuff.:)

[Lookout]

I agree with the observations that the hoof is unbalanced and needs to be 'squared up', but there is minimal 'flaring'. The most telling views are the one from the back and the sole view. In the back shot, the hoof is going 'wry' (or collapsing as you say), and the lateral cartilages are very prominent, which can lead to bony/arthritic type problems. This is likely a result of the LC's being 'squeezed out' of the foot; this can be relieved by improved trimming which would allow the hoof to 'open up', and flex.

More telling is the sole shot, which does show too much heel, bar, etc, pretty much all around. I couldn't figure out how long ago you said she was trimmed but she is definitely due, to have that removed. The most significant thing here is the overgrown bar that does cover the front half of the hoof and around the frog. It's noteworthy that it appears worse and "bulging" on the inside of the foot. Because it's painful to step onto this excess horn (bar), she is twisting her foot to avoid putting weight onto it, and the result is what you are seeing and describing as the rolling over motion. You may well have a chiropractic issue, caused by the imbalance, not the other way around. This customary way of placing her hoot, is causing the 'flare', and the imbalance, and the uneven wear. So, first of all if all that bar is smoothed out, it will help the foot to wear more evenly, which will help with the way she carries herself, which will prevent further chiropractic issues. You will see an immediate improvement in her comfort level and way of going once this source of pain is removed.

This is an odd imbalance because it's resulting not just from uneven lateral/medial trimming but from uneven weight placement and will require more than one trim to correct, therefore the current 8 week schedule should be shortened until the situation is corrected. But, it must be trimmed correctly in order for that to happen! In this case the trimming will correct the situation, not the application of a shoe, which in any case since she's only 3 should not happen for several more years.

[LivviesMom]

Do you have any pictures of the horse after trimming? It would be interesting to see how the horse moves once the excess bar material has been trimmed off. It looks like the bar material has spread down around the apex of the frog. If the bars have been trimmed back to halfway down the frog (towards the heel) and at level or slightly lower than the outside wall, the horse may become more comfortable in the heels (assuming the heels are of equal heights).

Do you have any new pics of after the trim?
Hoping to get them up ASAP

Is that material bar material? I would bet it is false sole...laid down to support lack of correct structure elsewhere...likely from the forward toe, stretching and thining the sole...and possibly from lack of inner wall (the water line...which stratum is that?;))...that is resopnsible for absorbing concussion...when the foot gets back in order, that material WILL go away on its own.

If it is removed prematurely it can lame the snot out of a horse and even cause the whole foot to go splat, losing all concavity.

Just my experience.:)
Yep and farrier has been very careful about that..after he started trimming her again he felt she would be seriously lame if he trimmed her the way she was then..


More telling is the sole shot, which does show too much heel, bar, etc, pretty much all around. I couldn't figure out how long ago you said she was trimmed but she is definitely due, to have that removed. The most significant thing here is the overgrown bar that does cover the front half of the hoof and around the frog. It's noteworthy that it appears worse and "bulging" on the inside of the foot. Because it's painful to step onto this excess horn (bar), she is twisting her foot to avoid putting weight onto it, and the result is what you are seeing and describing as the rolling over motion. You may well have a chiropractic issue, caused by the imbalance, not the other way around. This customary way of placing her hoot, is causing the 'flare', and the imbalance, and the uneven wear. So, first of all if all that bar is smoothed out, it will help the foot to wear more evenly, which will help with the way she carries herself, which will prevent further chiropractic issues. You will see an immediate improvement in her comfort level and way of going once this source of pain is removed.

This is an odd imbalance because it's resulting not just from uneven lateral/medial trimming but from uneven weight placement and will require more than one trim to correct, therefore the current 8 week schedule should be shortened until the situation is corrected. But, it must be trimmed correctly in order for that to happen! In this case the trimming will correct the situation, not the application of a shoe, which in any case since she's only 3 should not happen for several more years.

I think we're on to something here as well.. I am going to have the chrio out, possibly a massage.. she has not shown me she is in any pain or come up lame at all, but the motion you describe would make sense.. maybe shes just tougher than I think and not showing me she is in discomfort. I'm also with you on shortening the period between trimming, just to keep her balanced.. not necessarily trimmed each time.

[LivviesMom]

Just to add I'm getting tons of great info here, thank you all very much. I'll have to print this out..

[Lookout]

I think we're on to something here as well.. I am going to have the chrio out, possibly a massage.. she has not shown me she is in any pain or come up lame at all, but the motion you describe would make sense.. maybe shes just tougher than I think and not showing me she is in discomfort.

It could be just a matter of time, before you start seeing some real discomfort, in particular because she is not in any work yet due to her age, where unnevenness, weakness etc., would be immediately noticed and the workload could make her more sore, more quickly. Also meant to say, a 'heels down' shot to show the balance would be very instructive to help in determining correct balance here, because it's more than a simple M/L issue.

[CookiePony]

http://www.barefoottrim.com/2008/forums/livviesmom/livviesmom1-4-08.htm



Wow, caballus, it is much easier to see with the drawing!

ETA: OK, now I am a little confused. I think what I thought was medial is what you think is lateral. I thought this was the LH?

[EqTrainer]

I'll bet that if any of us could actually hold this foot, feel it, use a hoof pick on it, we would see separation on that side.

I trim those horses on a two to three week cycle. OP, it is in your horses best interest for you to at least learn to trim this ONE foot if you cannot have your trimmer out that often. But be careful, this is how I started trimming :lol:

My now three year old had a foot that looked like that when I got him. Genetics my ass, crooked legged my ass, bad trimming did it. You could not find it now and his leg is perfectly straight (and ge-orgeous, I might add).

[LMH]

Medial is inside, lateral is outside

[CookiePony]

Medial is inside, lateral is outside

What I mean is, is the left side or the right side of the first photo medial?

OK, went back to look at the pics on webshots and the OP has labeled the pic LH. So the left side of the photo is the hoof's medial side. Is that what you were thinking caballus and EqT? IOW, is that the high wall?

[Lookout]

Is that what you were thinking caballus and EqT? IOW, is that the high wall?
It is confusing, isn't it? This is more complicated than a straight M/L imbalance which makes it so confusing. It's more like a 'wry' foot. If you look at the front view, the hairline shot, it's the inside that's higher, 'waving' up. There is probably more sole material built up at the toe on the inside causing that bulge, and which is why it would be so helpful to see a 'heels down' shot before deciding what needs to be done to balance it. I wouldn't be surprised if the inside needed lowering, not the outside. Because the horse is putting all its weight to the outside, avoiding the pain from stepping on the inside bar, it is squashing down the outside wall. ETA - if the inside wall is lowered without addressing the overgrown bar/sole, it will be weight the inside of the foot as well as the outside (as it should be) but stepping on the excess horn will make it even more painful than it currently is, and yes, it will appear as if the trimming 'made the horse lame'.

[EqTrainer]

What I mean is, is the left side or the right side of the first photo medial?

OK, went back to look at the pics on webshots and the OP has labeled the pic LH. So the left side of the photo is the hoof's medial side. Is that what you were thinking caballus and EqT? IOW, is that the high wall?

I should clarify, I did not yet see the pics when I posted this AM. I was talking generalities.

But now I have and yes, the inside wall appears high. And flared. But the outside wall shows evidence of a flare having been removed at some point. So I am unsure of what has been done and of course, unsure as to why the flare was left on the other side. IME you sometimes create an awfully funny looking foot when you get serious about deflaring but if you don't remove them from being weightbearing, you get a mess like this. But you know, it's a back foot. It's unlikely that taking the flare down to the white line is going to make her lame - in fact, she might stop moving so strangely if the flare and separation were removed. That would be a priority for me.

Without seeing it in person it's hard to say, as usual, but I'd be looking at a very short trim cycle and expecting it to look stranger before it looked better but that ultimately it would resolve. I would NOT shoe this foot to fix it and can't imagine either of my farriers would recommend that.

[Appassionato]

:no:horse is bow legged. add some flat plates on behind ; no traction. Will have hock problems when the horse grows up; sorry

From what you've posted it appears your problem is higher up.

You've got a lateral heel contracting for some reason. Makes me suspect sidebones maybe? Would need an x-ray to know for sure. If is that shoes can help. If not they really wont matter but need to try to stop and reverse the contraction somehow.

To me it appears the pastern is what's not straight. The hoof it appeared the guy did best he could with what he had to work with. As far as the trim goes they look pretty good for being so many weeks out. I'd vote for getting a vet to take an x-ray then go from there.

As far as shoes on hinds only- its done occasionally on reiners, calf ropers, etc. Is a temporary thing in their training and not something done pemanently.
George

I agree with Jaye and George. The leg is crooked. I also agree with getting x-rays then proceeding from there. Not doing the x-rays can/will cause irreversible damage internally if the farrier tries to "straighten" things out.

Don't despair about a crooked leg necessarily, that doesn't mean to throw away the whole horse! I would dare say most horses have something a little crooked about their legs...;)

[Melelio]

Lookout, I was told that growth around the frog is false sole, not bar, as real bar doesn't really grow beyond halfway down the frog.

I was also told that the false sole is growing in response to something internal in the foot not being supported. That the sole is trying to add support where needed to compensate.

My three started getting that growth just last month (after NEVER having it) I think due to the mud softening up their soles after having dry, hard drought-stricken ground previous.

As far as the rest, I'd definitely trim those high heels down, and get a good barefoot trim on this foot to really see what the ankle is doing. I see some flare, right at the bottom last inch. The front view makes it look like there has been some separation and wavy growth from close to a year ago growing out. My guys are similar, but I know they were laminitic and have separation I'm trying to repair.

OP, do learn to trim your own horse, if you can. It'll help you keep this horse sounder, and help you understand more what YOUR horse needs for foot care on a regular basis. I'm not sure where you are, but you might find a barefoot mentor to help you with it a time or two. You'll probably need to do something to this foot ever 1-2 weeks for awhile.

[LMH]

Appass...no one is suggesting straightening out a crooked leg (just to clarify)---either way the foot is wrong...the coffin bone is not going to be loading properly and that has to be corrected.

I would bet you that leg won't look as crooked once the hoof is corrected.

Speaking from personal experience here.;)

[JHUshoer20]

Lookout, I was told that growth around the frog is false sole, not bar, as real bar doesn't really grow beyond halfway down the frog.


Melelio,
Correct you are, you win the prize for today:)

Again this is indicative that the horse hadn't been trimmed for some time. Nonetheless it doesn't deter everybody from passing judgement on a weeks old trim though:o

For some reason this is especially prevalent in horses that don't get out much if at all, and are bedded on either shavings or sawdust.

Is nothing to worry about it'll be gone with the next trim.
George

[caballus]

I went in and labeled the photos for medial/lateral sides for clarification. http://www.barefoottrim.com/2008/forums/livviesmom/livviesmom1-4-08.htm That should help.
I agree with those who have stated removing that bar material and false sole at this time may cause the horse to sore as well as the sole to collapse. Without actually 'feeling' the hoof its difficult to say whether or not the hoof is "ready to release" the excessive sole. My rule of thumb is if its really difficult to take off with a knife then leave it. If its starting to peel off on its own simply remove that portion that peels off easily and leave the rest. I've worked with a number of wry hooves like this and its not a quick fix. This one is not nearly as bad as some I've seen. The worst take almost 6 months to straighten out and then still need careful attendance. The least affected take about 3 or 4 months. This is with careful trimming every 4 - 5 weeks. AND ... lots of movement on HARD, FIRM surfaces. Daily walks for 10 - 20 mins. down tarred road will help the hooves remediate rapidly.

Looking at these hooves its easy to see what Dr. Bowker was talking about when he said the bars grow sole forward. The portion that wraps around the frog apex is easily viewed as a continuation of overgrown bar material. I am careful to see that none of it is weight bearing so as not to cause the horse to be lame. Bumps and lumps that are weightbearing on the bottom of the hoof can cause tenderness - think of walking with hard rocks in your shoes. So I do make sure they are level with the rest of the sole/whiteline area. So if its not ready to completely be exfoliated then I will simply rasp or pare level with the hoofwalls that are trimmed down level with the hardened sole and then I bevel the walls at a 45* angle and roll them slightly at this time of the year. That helps to allow nice thick walls to form as well as get the weight bearing to be shared between the walls and the whiteline.

[caballus]

Melelio,
Correct you are, you win the prize for today:)

Again this is indicative that the horse hadn't been trimmed for some time. Nonetheless it doesn't deter everybody from passing judgement on a weeks old trim though:o

For some reason this is especially prevalent in horses that don't get out much if at all, and are bedded on either shavings or sawdust.

Is nothing to worry about it'll be gone with the next trim.
George
George .. I made a comment about Dr. Bowker's findings on the bars growing sole "forward". While the actual "bar" does not extend past the middle area of the frog (inside the hoof), the material (sole material) that it produces does migrate forward to look like its extenuated bar material. You can see that on the photos? And yes, maybe if the owner takes great care to see that the horse gets PLENTY of movement on a nice, firm surface it *could* be gone by the next trim but wouldn't count on it unless the farrier/trimmer manually trims it away. Even on horses that are turned out 24/7 if they're on soft ground they don't lose this growth for several months. At least that's what I've found.

:)

[Appassionato]

Appass...no one is suggesting straightening out a crooked leg (just to clarify)---either way the foot is wrong...the coffin bone is not going to be loading properly and that has to be corrected.

I would bet you that leg won't look as crooked once the hoof is corrected.

Speaking from personal experience here.;)

Whether trimmed or shod something needs to be done for sure, my point was that any attempts without x-rays to check the alignment, and she's in for trouble. That was my experience: messed up all 4 P3s and both hocks.

[Tom Stovall]

LMH in gray, deletia

Is there some benefit to shoeing backs and leaving fronts bare? I really don't have the answer to that and always wanted to know?

As always, it depends. Without considering possible reasons due to pathological presentation, biomechanical efficiency can sometimes be improved by shoeing the hinds and leaving the fronts bare when the animal needs more or less traction behind, but does not need shoes in front to do whatever it does as best it can - e.g., Some (not all!) heeling horses, reiners, hunter ponies, etc. :)

[JHUshoer20]

George .. I made a comment about Dr. Bowker's findings on the bars growing sole "forward". While the actual "bar" does not extend past the middle area of the frog (inside the hoof), the material (sole material) that it produces does migrate forward to look like its extenuated bar material. You can see that on the photos? And yes, maybe if the owner takes great care to see that the horse gets PLENTY of movement on a nice, firm surface it *could* be gone by the next trim but wouldn't count on it unless the farrier/trimmer manually trims it away. Even on horses that are turned out 24/7 if they're on soft ground they don't lose this growth for several months. At least that's what I've found.

:)
Gwen,
Said it would be gone at the next trim BECAUSE it will be trimmed away:)

Don't sweat the small stuff, Only judge the trim right after it is trimmed, not weeks out, this is all too common and people who get under them and get the job done really ought to know better:winkgrin:
George

[EqTrainer]

Appass...no one is suggesting straightening out a crooked leg (just to clarify)---either way the foot is wrong...the coffin bone is not going to be loading properly and that has to be corrected.

I would bet you that leg won't look as crooked once the hoof is corrected.

Speaking from personal experience here.;)

I agree... from personal experience.

[LMH]

OK this neverending debate of bar material vs. false sole.

What material makes the bars? What material makes the sole? Does sole make the bars? or something else?

Does this bar material have the same components as the bar or the sole?

Surely Bowker or someone has the answer to this?

[LivviesMom]

ok so.. I headed out and had a look at the trim yesterday. Looks MUCH better. Unfortunately camera died and I was unable to get new pics. I will do that this afternoon for sure.
I should mention she has had hock x-rays and vet was very pleased with them.. no issues there.. she is till growing and is a bit awkward at the moment. Bum is high again. Her hind end is widening aswell..
She has an appointment for Chiro next weekend. We ( vet, farrier and I) suspect that her movement is also contributing to uneven wear.
So right now the plan is to trim more often and see how it goes.

I am not so sure I want to trim or rasp myself in between farrier visits. I suspect it will help But I also don't want to mess an progress up.

I have always been careful to avoid growth related issues with her.

[LMH]

That is good news! Looking forward to your updated photos!:)

[Lookout]

Lookout, I was told that growth around the frog is false sole, not bar, as real bar doesn't really grow beyond halfway down the frog.
Always, in all cases? I'm talking about this particular case, and it's bar. It takes a long time to get that way, and it just hasn't been trimmed for a long time, months. That's all. Bars don't 'grow' past where their white line is producing them (midway down the frog) but if they're not getting worn away, or being trimmed, it has to go somewhere - and that's forward.
Physiologically speaking what distinguishes 'false' sale from 'real' sole? And if the foot 'needs' it because it doesn't have support, why wouldn't it just grow 'real' sole? Wouldn't that be easier and more logical?

I was also told that the false sole is growing in response to something internal in the foot not being supported. That the sole is trying to add support where needed to compensate.

So what is under there that's not being supported? There's the sole, the corium, and the coffin bone. How would it not be supported? In reality it' the laminae that are supporting the coffin bone.
If the horse 'needed' this excess growth, it would be moving and growing correctly. As it is, it is altering her movement to the point where the hoof is wry and collapsing and twisting the entire lower half of the leg into a totally weird, wonky alignment.

[Lookout]

( vet, farrier and I) suspect that her movement is also contributing to uneven wear.
So right now the plan is to trim more often and see how it goes.

The hof is wearing unevenly because the way she is walking and placing her foot is, to not step on the inside of the hoof (because that would hurt) but rather putting all the weight on the outside. You see the result in the squashed outside wall. Imagine you had something on the inside your shoe under your foot, like say the dull edge of a knife, on the inside, and how you would walk to avoid stepping on it. Or a blister. How long before other body parts would be sore, and joints were out of alignmment?

[Melelio]

Always, in all cases? I'm talking about this particular case, and it's bar. It takes a long time to get that way, and it just hasn't been trimmed for a long time, months. That's all. Bars don't 'grow' past where their white line is producing them (midway down the frog) but if they're not getting worn away, or being trimmed, it has to go somewhere - and that's forward.
Physiologically speaking what distinguishes 'false' sale from 'real' sole? And if the foot 'needs' it because it doesn't have support, why wouldn't it just grow 'real' sole? Wouldn't that be easier and more logical?

So what is under there that's not being supported? There's the sole, the corium, and the coffin bone. How would it not be supported?
If the horse 'needed' this excess growth, it would be moving and growing correctly. As it is, it is altering her movement to the point where the hoof is wry and collapsing and twisting the entire lower half of the leg into a totally weird, wonky alignment.



I don't know, to any of your return questions. I'm sure you do. I was simply stating what a mentor has told me about my guys, not having seen my guys with this issue.

I find it hard to believe that the farrier is not removing bar. Most of them remove too much. Why is it growing in again so fast, if it's all bar? Does the OP know if/how much bar is usually pared away on shoe resets?

[LivviesMom]

Alright back from the barn armed with more photos and video.. I took these one and tried to get as close as possible and little angle..

Photos that are just numbered are post trim. The video is not the greatest but my camera is not the greatest either..

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2092208920081299973OoTche

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OC1Yu-Rrc4c

[Pippigirl]

I don't know, to any of your return questions. I'm sure you do. I was simply stating what a mentor has told me about my guys, not having seen my guys with this issue.

I find it hard to believe that the farrier is not removing bar. Most of them remove too much. Why is it growing in again so fast, if it's all bar? Does the OP know if/how much bar is usually pared away on shoe resets?

It does take time for the bars to grow out like that. If there is no abrasive surface to wear them away, they will do that. I have yet to see a farrier remove too much bar.

I know people will disagree with me here but in the updated photos (assuming I'm looking at the correct ones), it looks like the farrier is not finished removing bar material. It also looks like the heels are still a bit tall and that the heels are unlevel (unless it's due to camera angles et all...). This is just my opinion and not saying your farrier is inferior ok?

[LivviesMom]

It does take time for the bars to grow out like that. If there is no abrasive surface to wear them away, they will do that. I have yet to see a farrier remove too much bar.

I know people will disagree with me here but in the updated photos (assuming I'm looking at the correct ones), it looks like the farrier is not finished removing bar material. It also looks like the heels are still a bit tall and that the heels are unlevel (unless it's due to camera angles et all...). This is just my opinion and not saying your farrier is inferior ok?


Nope he is not done yet. He trimmed the bar level to the frog. It will take some time to remove completely. And yes there is a bit more heel protruding on the outside. It going to take time to get back to normal.

[LMH]

LM-here is a link that I don't think has been posted here:

http://www.easycareinc.com/education/articles/problem_hooves.aspx

It has some valuable information on hoof form.

I haven't had a chance to really go over the photos-one thing jumped out at me (others please give input)...the side shot shows a bullnosed hind foot.


This can happen and result from a few things-one being a negative plane coffin bone...either heels to short or toes to long and forward or both.

Often when this happens you will see a REALLY overgrown looking frog OR you can see this extra "bar material"-the foot is weak from this form and it lays down more material or a fuller frog to carry the load.

Having experienced this in one of my own, I can tell you what worked and didn't for us.

The gut reaction is to lower the heels to bring them back-this is great in theory but can creat bigger problems. The back of the foot is weak and can't take the load of lowering the heels.

I choose to really focusing on getting the toe back-and NOT touching the heels...leaving them until I can get control of the toe.

This (again in my experience) keeps the horse from getting sore and sets up the mechanics for better growth.

If that 'bar material' that your farrier removed comes back in a few days, that it is good sign it was needed for support and should be left until it is easily scraped away...that is how the foot tells you it doesn't need it anymore.

Realizing this foot took awhile to get like this, it is going to be little adjustments often that will bring the best results. If he were in my care I would put a strong bevel (45 degrees or MORE) on that toe every week-two weeks max.

I wouldn't even touch the rest of the foot for several weeks and just see what happens.

Again just my 2cents.

[Rick Burten]

The lateral heel is sheared, the fetlock is asymmetrical and enlarged, In some of the photos it looks as though she has the beginning of a negative plane coffin bone and slight angular limb deformity. I don't necessarily like to shoe youngsters, but in this case, I'd think long and hard about it, at least for the short term.

[Auventera Two]

I'd like to know how Strasser followers get the idea that bars can grow all the way around the apex of the frog, when the laminae that produces the bar terminates approximately 50% of the way down the medial and lateral sides of the frog. Strasser people seem to be the only ones out there that think this way so I'd like an explanation.

[LMH]

I'd like to know Strasser followers get the idea that bars can grow all the way around the apex of the frog, when the laminae that produces the bar terminates approximately 50% of the way down he medial and lateral sides of the frog. Strasser people seem to be the only ones out there that think this way so I'd like an explanation.

I would like to have an understanding of this as well.

[LMH]

Rick-you don't think you could give this a go bare with aggressive bringing back of the breakover?

I only ask because I had one that had a wry type foot with mild shearing ( not like this and no joint swelling) and he did quite well using this approach.

Once I got breakover in a better place I was able to deal with the heels-but interestingly fixing breakover really started the heels almost correcting themselves.

Would the difference simply be a matter of how far gone things were?

[Rick Burten]

Rick-you don't think you could give this a go bare with aggressive bringing back of the breakover?
Perhaps, but there is not a lot of foot there to work with and I think I can be more effective with (short term)shoeing.
I only ask because I had one that had a wry type foot with mild shearing ( not like this and no joint swelling) and he did quite well using this approach.
I too have worked on some that have responded to trimming only. What I find is that if I am not getting improvement by the third trim, then I change my approach/re-evaluate and go from there.
Once I got breakover in a better place I was able to deal with the heels-but interestingly fixing breakover really started the heels almost correcting themselves.
Good stuff!
Would the difference simply be a matter of how far gone things were?
Yes, along with conformation, and the other usual suspects. Though this is a young horse, if the joints have remodeled to accommodate the situation, then the best that can be hoped for is to manage rather than correct the situation. (JMNTBCHO) And we have to take into account, the changes that may(or may not)be occurring at the hock level too. Personally, I'd want rads of the hock, the fetlock the PIPJ and the DIPJ before I started. At a minimum it gives a base line against which future rads can be compared.

[LivviesMom]

ok I have no idea even where to begin all over again. I'm so frustrated..

I guess I'll have the vet out to do an xray and see whats going on...

[LMH]

Thanks Rick for your explanation!

I certainly am not pushing some barefoot only agenda position-just explaining what I did with an understanding that my success may have been due to the fact it was a less severe case.

I do agree with the fact there is less foot to work with-which is why I suggested only dealing with the breakover and not getting tunnel vision on the heels-something all to common in many barefoot approaches.

So often that little bit of heel-though it looks long from the outside is actually quite short with respect to the position of the coffin bone. That is also why I was interested in the depth of the collateral grooves.

I guess this is a situation where the pros and cons of bare vs. shoes (the pro bare being the ability to address things more often than constantly resetting shoes and the pro shoe being making changes that are in essence 'replacing' hoof material with a shoe) have to be balanced.

Aside from my pro-bare personal thoughts, my only concern with shoeing would be the fact the breakover would be 'set' by the shoe without the ability to work on it weekly or such-I guess though a good farrier could really bring it back and apply the shoe for protection ( I am guessing)?

SO indeed, if there are not apparent changes in 3 trims, the approach would have to be reconsidered.

[LMH]

LM-don't get frustrated! You are actually getting some GREAT information that will help you once you can wrap your head around the information.

It is HARD when it is your 'baby' but horses have amazing abilities to heal with the proper environment, trim, etc...just be patient and thoughtful, review all the postive thoughts you have been given, get your x-rays and keep learning.

Things will look up! He is young, strong and you are heading in the right direction.

[Appassionato]

ok I have no idea even where to begin all over again. I'm so frustrated..

I guess I'll have the vet out to do an xray and see whats going on...

I can't remember if it was here or at horseshoes so I'll just ask, did you say she had x-rays done of her hocks before? How old are those x-rays? If you are going to get new x-rays, it's worth comparing the two!

Good luck! And FWIW, I had a very well-respected vet actualy ADD to the harm and almost death of my horse. It's hurtful when you're given bad advice; don't think I don't know how that feels. In your case it was more than likely just a mistake or mild oversight. My case, nah...and I'll stop whining here. Again, best of luck! :winkgrin:

[LivviesMom]

Her x rays were done in Novemeber..
I'm frustrated that this wasn't adressed when I brought it up in the first place.. Now that She is ready to be backed I don't want to add to the stress the joints may be under.. I had sooo many plans for her this year that will depend on getting this foot back on track.. The main thing to me is that it is fixed. its just aggravating to be ignored and then have to deal with the consequences..

[Appassionato]

Her x rays were done in Novemeber..
I'm frustrated that this wasn't adressed when I brought it up in the first place.. Now that She is ready to be backed I don't want to add to the stress the joints may be under.. I had sooo many plans for her this year that will depend on getting this foot back on track.. The main thing to me is that it is fixed. its just aggravating to be ignored and then have to deal with the consequences..

Hey, are the Nov, x-rays digital? If they aren't, can you get pics of them??? Post them here and at horseshoes. You might get some more helpful feedback when the folks giving advice can see what's going on internally. I'd also ask about x-rays of the fetlock and P3.

I understand your frustration. Have a bubble bath, a glass of wine (or beer, or whatever) and try to relax. Hey! You caught the problems MUCH sooner than I did for my own! Give yourself a pat for that! :D

[Petstorejunkie]

Her x rays were done in Novemeber..
I'm frustrated that this wasn't adressed when I brought it up in the first place.. Now that She is ready to be backed I don't want to add to the stress the joints may be under.. I had sooo many plans for her this year that will depend on getting this foot back on track.. The main thing to me is that it is fixed. its just aggravating to be ignored and then have to deal with the consequences..

Dont be discouraged. If you can get her on a once every 2 week cycle, things will get better quickly. Then once she's good to go, every 4-5 weeks works best ime. You have gotten a ton of really great advice here, just look at how much better her foot is after one trim!

[LivviesMom]

I know.. I want to thank everyone for their advice as well. Im going to call my vet and farrier tomorrow to discuss our options and see how it goes.. I'll still have her adjusted by the Chiro and get her alligned better too.

Her feet have always been phenomenal up until now

[Lookout]

I haven't had a chance to really go over the photos-one thing jumped out at me (others please give input)...the side shot shows a bullnosed hind foot.

Yes. It is because there is too much horn material at the toe. This is very visible on the 'heels down shot' (don't remember the number but maybe 49?) In addition to the other imbalance issues mentioned, if you look for the concavity you can see that the sole level is far above the apex of the frog, at least what looks like an inch. The sole should be level with the frog apex and flow up level with the bottom of the hoof wall, following the contour of the coffin bone. This will be very easy to see in a lateral xray.

Another very informative photo is the one of the hindquarters from the back (51?), where you can see the muscle atrophy of the near flank, and the bulging muscle of the gaskin on that same side. This indicates that the situation has been developing for some time and is not recent. Also, is she rubbing her tail? Just curious.

[LMH]

Isn't she only 3? Her skeleton isn't even mature until 5yo so waiting a few months will only be healthier for her in the long run.:)

[LivviesMom]

Yes. It is because there is too much horn material at the toe. This is very visible on the 'heels down shot' (don't remember the number but maybe 49?) In addition to the other imbalance issues mentioned, if you look for the concavity you can see that the sole level is far above the apex of the frog, at least what looks like an inch. The sole should be level with the frog apex and flow up level with the bottom of the hoof wall, following the contour of the coffin bone. This will be very easy to see in a lateral xray.

Another very informative photo is the one of the hindquarters from the back (51?), where you can see the muscle atrophy of the near flank, and the bulging muscle of the gaskin on that same side. This indicates that the situation has been developing for some time and is not recent. Also, is she rubbing her tail? Just curious.

LOL no she does nto rub her tail. I'm assuming you are asking due to the white hair? She hads had that since birth. She has the Rabicano gene that gives her that white tail hair and roaning through her flank.

LMH - yes she is three (in April)

[Rick Burten]

Yes. It is because there is too much horn material at the toe.
Huh? Would you please expand on that observation. How does one get "too much horn material at the toe"?

[Rick Burten]

Thanks Rick for your explanation!

I certainly am not pushing some barefoot only agenda position-just explaining what I did with an understanding that my success may have been due to the fact it was a less severe case.
I was never under the impression that you were pushing any agenda other than trying to help the horse. :) At least thus far, this has not turned into a barefoot vs shoes debate, nor should it.
I guess this is a situation where the pros and cons of bare vs. shoes (the pro bare being the ability to address things more often than constantly resetting shoes and the pro shoe being making changes that are in essence 'replacing' hoof material with a shoe) have to be balanced.
As is most always the case, "It Depends"
Aside from my pro-bare personal thoughts, my only concern with shoeing would be the fact the breakover would be 'set' by the shoe without the ability to work on it weekly or such-I guess though a good farrier could really bring it back and apply the shoe for protection ( I am guessing)?
No need to guess. Especially when it is a demonstrable fact. :)
That said, I think that right now, establishing more correct M/L balance and limb support are the over arcing concerns. Considering what the 'normal' rate of wall growth is, it would not be difficult to envision or enact a trimming and shoeing schedule of 4 weeks. As for breakover location, there are several methods to achieve this and one good shoe application for this would be an aluminum shoe with no wear bar at the toe. That would allow the shoe to wear back appropriately as the hoof started to grow out, and would allow the horse to achieve its own comfort level while still conserving the applied trim.

[Lookout]

Huh? Would you please expand on that observation. How does one get "too much horn material at the toe"?
There are at least three ways that one can get excess material: growing profusely for whatever reason, not trimming away as much as is growing, not wearing away naturally from movement/abrasive terrain.

[Lookout]

LOL no she does nto rub her tail. I'm assuming you are asking due to the white hair? She hads had that since birth. She has the Rabicano gene that gives her that white tail hair and roaning through her flank.

Well, that's different :cool: .

[Rick Burten]

Whoa, wait a minute. The context of your reply was with regard to the horse being bull-nosed, and my question was with regard to that and that alone. How does too much horn material at the toe cause a bull -nosed hoof capsule?

It is my understanding that the bull-nosed/convex shape of the dorsal wall of the hoof capsule is a distortion due to the effects of a negative plane coffin bone. ie: As the coffin bone rotates such that its distal leading edge is tipping upwards, the pressure that orientation places on the inner side of the dorsal wall(and the laminae in that area), causes the hoof wall to distort to relieve the pressure and probable pain and inflammation.

I am not aware of any studies that have shown a thickening of the wall to be the cause of the bull-nose distortion. Are you? If so, what were the causes listed?

[Lookout]

Whoa, wait a minute. The context of your reply was with regard to the horse being bull-nosed, and my question was with regard to that and that alone. How does too much horn material at the toe cause a bull -nosed hoof capsule?

It is my understanding that the bull-nosed/convex shape of the dorsal wall of the hoof capsule is a distortion due to the effects of a negative plane coffin bone. ie: As the coffin bone rotates such that its distal leading edge is tipping upwards, the pressure that orientation places on the inner side of the dorsal wall(and the laminae in that area), causes the hoof wall to distort to relieve the pressure and probable pain and inflammation.


And the thicker sole (horn) at the toe is what leads to the negative plane coffin bone, which leads to the bullnose shape. Not always of course. I would expect to see it though on this horse's xrays, (and am looking forward to the possibility) based on the appearance of the hoof and the thickness from the frog apex to the surface of the sole.

[JB]

And the thicker sole (horn) at the toe is what leads to the negative plane coffin bone, which leads to the bullnose shape. Not always of course. I would expect to see it though on this horse's xrays, (and am looking forward to the possibility) based on the appearance of the hoof and the thickness from the frog apex to the surface of the sole.

Can you explain how thicker sole (horn?? I'm not aware of sole and horn being the same?) leads to a bullnose, as opposed to just a (more) broken back HPA? How do you take into account what the heels are doing in the development of a bullnose? I'm honestly just trying to see where you're coming from so I can try to understand :)

[Lookout]

Can you explain how thicker sole (horn?? I'm not aware of sole and horn being the same?) leads to a bullnose, as opposed to just a (more) broken back HPA? How do you take into account what the heels are doing in the development of a bullnose? I'm honestly just trying to see where you're coming from so I can try to understand :)
I'm not saying it always lead to a bullnose shape, but it (the bullnose) can be the next step after the broken back angle and the NPCB, and I think Rick explained how that process takes place.

'Horn' is the all-inclusive term for the components of the outer hoof (sole, bar, wall, maybe frog but not sure about that one).

[Rick Burten]

And the thicker sole (horn) at the toe is what leads to the negative plane coffin bone,
How does a thickere sole lead to a negative plane coffin bone? How much extra thickness is necessary to create this condition?
I would expect to see it though on this horse's xrays, (and am looking forward to the possibility) based on the appearance of the hoof and the thickness from the frog apex to the surface of the sole.
What is it about the appearance of this hoof that is different from the appearance of other bull-nosed hooves, that leads you to this assumption? Have you considered that the thickness you noted from frog apex to sole surface may be do to factors such as retained frog, prolapsed frog, etc?
I'm not saying it always lead to a bullnose shape, but it (the bullnose) can be the next step after the broken back angle and the NPCB, and I think Rick explained how that process takes place.
I think you are drawing conclusions where there are no conclusions to be drawn. I say this because there is no evidence that I am aware of that links a thick sole, anterior to the distal leading edge of p3, to the inception of a convex dorsal hoof capsule distortion. The other two factors, are indeed closely linked with the bull nose condition, and I call well imagine that once the condition has begun, radiographs would show what would seem to be a thickened sole beneath the distal leading edge of p3. But that is due to the change in spatial orientation of p3 which has never been shown to occur due to a thick sole beneath it. In point of fact, it takes a rather experienced eye to , when reading radiographs, discern what is sole and what is sole corium and then translate that to numerical equivalents. Especially when there is pathology present.

[Auventera Two]

From my schooling I remember a long discussion on bull nosing and cadual rotation (negative plane P3.) I can't recall everything because I'm at work and notes are at home. But basically the dorsal surface of P3 creates increased pressure on the lamina from the negative orientation of the bone. Increased pressure creates increased growth. A thickening of the horn wall material creates the bull nose. Cadual rotation is fixed, hoof regains normal form.

In reading Lookout's posts, I took her comments to mean that increased toe height (thick sole at the toe) leads to cadual rotation. This of course would be only if the heel plane is taken to a level lower than the toe plane.

I've seen this on hundreds of photos of "natural trims" because they are terrified to touch the "toe callous." So the toe height is allowed to run amuck and only the heels are continually trimmed lower and lower to get that ever-coveted "heel first landing."

[goeslikestink]

Perhaps, but there is not a lot of foot there to work with and I think I can be more effective with (short term)shoeing.

I too have worked on some that have responded to trimming only. What I find is that if I am not getting improvement by the third trim, then I change my approach/re-evaluate and go from there.

Good stuff!

Yes, along with conformation, and the other usual suspects. Though this is a young horse, if the joints have remodeled to accommodate the situation, then the best that can be hoped for is to manage rather than correct the situation. (JMNTBCHO) And we have to take into account, the changes that may(or may not)be occurring at the hock level too. Personally, I'd want rads of the hock, the fetlock the PIPJ and the DIPJ before I started. At a minimum it gives a base line against which future rads can be compared.



this logical to me becyae its what i would do -- as the horse isnt right but the good thing is she 3 so not finished growing got another 4yrs yet, dont bck her yet get her feet and legs sorted 1st as i think this is high up --just my opnion, as i have watch that video time and time again - she also has long pasterns which she tends to lay flatish at times on siad foot dont know if she does it on the other foot but the black hind she tends to--

shes not had a knock on the pastern joint has she-- or since you had her it might not show on radiograghs but thats the 1s place i would look as it will put her foot out of ailment as it could be just conisident with oher farriers work --

once old man fogi had a splint on his front left leg he was so lame and walk like he was paralised-- when the vet came out --he had twot hings going on one was hiding the other
so looked like prarlaise of the schoulder- turned out to be a splint infused and a pricked sole

so sometimes things arnt quite what you think they are and can be soemthing you never even knew happened - like out in the field

[Lookout]

How does a thickere sole lead to a negative plane coffin bone? How much extra thickness is necessary to create this condition?
What is it about the appearance of this hoof that is different from the appearance of other bull-nosed hooves, that leads you to this assumption? Have you considered that the thickness you noted from frog apex to sole surface may be do to factors such as retained frog, prolapsed frog, etc?
In point of fact, it takes a rather experienced eye to , when reading radiographs, discern what is sole and what is sole corium and then translate that to numerical equivalents. Especially when there is pathology present.

If the sole at the toe is considerably thicker than the sole at the heels, this will manually rotate P3 into a negative plane. Just as when the sole is thicker at the heels that at the toe, the opposite happens. It is impossible to say 'how much' because it is relative and self-referential, and which is why I would require xrays to decide what to do.
Yes it may be something else such as a condition with the frog, which is why I would require xrays. There is definitely something going on there.
Yes, it does take an experienced eye to interpret xrays. None of this is suitable to try at home. Knowing in advance that this is what you're going to be looking for, you would set your exposure beam accordingly to make it more apparent.

[LivviesMom]

well Liv had a chiropratic adjustment today. He felt the way she was moving is contributing to the wear on her hoof. Her right hip was higher than the left and there was some pain and tension (makes perfect sense)
After the adjustment, her attitude has changed, shes relaxed and happy and she is not rolling onto the outside hoof at all, shes walking nice and flat.. even with the trim last week she was still rolling a wee bit.. so heres hoping that the 6 week trim cycle and an adjustment every 2-3 months keeps that hoof in check.

[vanheimrhorses]

rolling over the side is usually a stifle issue and i would build her up with hill work, other than that corrective shoeing is the way to go as that is the way to get things going the right way for a while and after that happens then she can go barefoot again, after all shoeing is all about correcting problems and protecting the hoof, all from a former farrier here

[Lookout]

Did the chiropractor mention anything about the muscle atrophy on the left flank or the overdeveloped left gaskin?

[LivviesMom]

Did the chiropractor mention anything about the muscle atrophy on the left flank or the overdeveloped left gaskin?

No. She is even on both sides.. Shes never shown any shortness of stride or lameness that might make her over or under developed on one side. Don't know if the angle of the photos made anything look odd at all.. or if she was standing with her weight shifted to one side, shes also in a VERY awkward growth phase right now.
Overall he quite liked her and felt that she was off in the sacrum.Tightness in her shoulder on the right also.He's given me some exercise to do in between visits.
Vet and chiros opinions are very similar right now. They still feel she may need shoes, but we've opted to do a 6 week trim cycle and regular chiro and see how she does.
She was a little suspicious of him at first, but after the first two manipulations she calmed down and just about fell asleep.

Once adjusted she moved out evenly and her feet fell flatly in place, no rolling over.

[LivviesMom]

Did the chiropractor mention anything about the muscle atrophy on the left flank or the overdeveloped left gaskin?

Sorry Lookout.. just had a look back at the photos and I believe you are referring to this one??..

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2525400050081299973DLFwos

Its the way she standing with her left hind out behind her. If I take a photo of her standing square behind, she is built evenly and well muscled on both sides..

[matryoshka]

It sounds like you are on the right track. There was something bothering me about the left hind at the walk, and I hope that the adjustment improved it. It was something hard to define, so I stayed out of the discussion. Keep us posted on how she goes. If you notice the medial wall flaring or the foot starting to look rolled again laterally again, call the farrier out sooner than 6 weeks. It'll help keep you from losing ground you have gained.

[LivviesMom]

It sounds like you are on the right track. There was something bothering me about the left hind at the walk, and I hope that the adjustment improved it. It was something hard to define, so I stayed out of the discussion. Keep us posted on how she goes. If you notice the medial wall flaring or the foot starting to look rolled again laterally again, call the farrier out sooner than 6 weeks. It'll help keep you from losing ground you have gained.

Yep that was te foot that was rolling over.. she is walking perfectly on it right now..its exciting lol..
I may have the farrier show me how to rasp properly so I can rasp of a tiny bit if need be..I really don't want to add to the problem though! especially now that we seem to be back on track.

[EqTrainer]

Yep that was te foot that was rolling over.. she is walking perfectly on it right now..its exciting lol..
I may have the farrier show me how to rasp properly so I can rasp of a tiny bit if need be..I really don't want to add to the problem though! especially now that we seem to be back on track.

Good idea because a 6 week trim will be, IME, too long.