Barefoot horse now sore after rain??

[Dune]

We have a little horse in the barn that has been barefoot since last spring. Horse has done pretty well after a rough start (was VERY sore after first "real" trim, not just after shoes were pulled). ANYWAY, was doing quite well over the summer, even walking over the gravel driveway on the way to the arena/trails with no ouchiness. There has been absolutely no chipping of the feet. This horse is doing well working on the flat WTC with some lateral work and jumping in the arena. However, it has rained a few times over the last month or so and now I'm noticing a shortened stride on the hardpack ground and a definite "ouch!" if said horse happens to step on a small rock. Even now that it's dried up a bit, still noticing this problem and anticipate it will continue since we're headed into the rainy season and I *think* that's what is causing it since nothing else has changed. I'm back to using Keratex (was able to stop completely over the summer) and just try to keep the walking around where horse is uncomfortable to a minimum. I not going to get into using boots, so please don't suggest that. I'm not going to put gravel in the stall, so please don't suggest that. I'm thinking we may need to put front shoes on if this doesn't get better, unless you folks can come up with another idea for me. Has anyone else had this problem before?

[JB]

You'd rather use "permanent" shoes than use boots for the temporary situations you encounter? There aren't many possibilities, since you've ruled out modifying his environment to help the quality of his feet, ruled out boots, Keratex might/might not work, other than shoes.

Yes, horses who don't get the right stimulation over the right footing on a regular basis can get soft enough soles after rain that harder/rockier footing that doesn't normally bother them, will.

[LMH]

It sounds like you have made up your mind.

[Posting Trot]

I'd use boots first. They're a little tricky to deal with at first (measurements have to be right, and there's a learning curve to putting them on), but they really give the hoof much more protection from concussion than shoes ever could. And, particularly if this is a temporary problem, boots seem like an ideal alternative.

I've used Old Macs: http://www.easycareinc.com/our_boots/old_macs_G2/Old_Macs_G2.aspx
and the main page on that website links to other types of boots as well.

Good luck.

[Pippigirl]

To answer your question. Yes. I don't use shoes to fix that though... I don't use Keratex or other sole hardeners.

[Daydream Believer]

Have you checked to see if he's got a touch of thrush after the wet weather? That could make him a bit ouchy if so.

[Sobriska]

Yep, I have one of those myself. I do my best to keep him dry. And I use boots when need be.
keratex, tough stuff, iodine etc did not help one bit.

Just a note, he was sore in shoes, so I am ahead of the game with him, and most of the time he is very happy barefoot.

[J Swan]

If the horse was sore with shoes - did you discover why?

If the horse was doing fine barefoot, and his soles got soft - there may be some bruising. It may or may not be apparent.

I'd say put shoes on since you don't want to use boots, but unless you know why the horse was sore with shoes, I don't see the point.

If it's bruising, you treat the hoof for bruising. If an abscess is developing, you treat for that. If the horse has developed thrush, you treat for that. If the horse is sore because of some medical condition, you discover what it is and treat for that.

[Guin]

Not to ask the obvious, but I assume you've had his feet x-rayed?

[Nezzy]

SHOES

[enjoytheride]

Horse feet harden up on tough ground then soften on wet ground, so his feet may be softer now and sore on rocks. Is his stall good and dry? While the ground in his pasture is wet you might have to stick with softer footing for riding or shoe him.

[Lookout]

Yes, wet hooves become more flexible and pressure from small stones and such more obvious. If you can't keep the feet dry, Keratex can help with this.

[Dune]

Have you checked to see if he's got a touch of thrush after the wet weather? That could make him a bit ouchy if so.


No thrush.

[Dune]

Horse feet harden up on tough ground then soften on wet ground, so his feet may be softer now and sore on rocks. Is his stall good and dry? While the ground in his pasture is wet you might have to stick with softer footing for riding or shoe him.


The "in" portion of the stall is dry, but the "out" portion is wet and there is no way to lock him in and I'm not willing to put him in a box stall. He can go in softer footing when the arena is dry but when it's wet out we have to walk them on the harder surfaces hence my problem. I thought I'd see if 1.) it was normal, which it seems like it is 2.) If someone had thought of something else that I had not Sounds like I'll be sticking to softer footing for now and next cycle will mean front shoes. :)

[Lauren!]

Was the horse sore in shoes? I didn't get that out of the first post, but someone mentioned it later in the thread, so maybe I missed something. Was the horse always barefoot or did she have shoes before? What prompted you to switch?

Try Keratex, and if that helps, try using Keratex Gel to help maintain it and keep the feet dry. You could also try Durasole, many people swear by that too.

If it were my horse, I'd try boots, since it seems to be a temporary condition. Boots could make the horse comfortable until the footing gets better, since it sounds like you were really happy with the horse being barefoot otherwise. Shoes are certainly an option too, and maybe the best one for you if you don't like boots and can't deal (or your horse can't) with the changing footing. They are often easier from an owner's perspective (call farrier every 6 weeks, pay bill... no buying and fitting boots, no adjustments and cleaning of muddy boots :)) and if you're happy with how your horse goes in them it may be a good solution.

[JB]

Just realize that a wet/dry cycle with shoes often leads to its own set of problems.

[EqTrainer]

Dune, before you do the shoes, just try doing the Borax thing. Pour a couple of tablespoons in a water bottle, fill up with hot water and shake it up. Every day, clean the feet, brush them out really well and then pour it over the frogs. See if your horsie feels better.

I swear, I am continually amazed at this. When it rains, I just do it now and no more sore-in-the-wet horses. Fungus must be one insidious MoFo.

[Lauren!]

Just realize that a wet/dry cycle with shoes often leads to its own set of problems.

Good Point :) I would consider continuing Keratex and then maybe Keratex Gel even if you do decide to shoe.

[Dune]

Was the horse sore in shoes? I didn't get that out of the first post, but someone mentioned it later in the thread, so maybe I missed something. Was the horse always barefoot or did she have shoes before? What prompted you to switch?

Try Keratex, and if that helps, try using Keratex Gel to help maintain it and keep the feet dry. You could also try Durasole, many people swear by that too.

If it were my horse, I'd try boots, since it seems to be a temporary condition. Boots could make the horse comfortable until the footing gets better, since it sounds like you were really happy with the horse being barefoot otherwise. Shoes are certainly an option too, and maybe the best one for you if you don't like boots and can't deal (or your horse can't) with the changing footing. They are often easier from an owner's perspective (call farrier every 6 weeks, pay bill... no buying and fitting boots, no adjustments and cleaning of muddy boots :)) and if you're happy with how your horse goes in them it may be a good solution.

This particular horse was NEVER sore in shoes, another poster (Sobriska) posted something about her horse being sore in shoes and those not versed in reading comprehension got derailed. :rolleyes: This horse was SUPER sound in shoes, even on asphalt and crushed asphalt and will be going back to that if necessary. I pulled shoes earlier this Spring because said horse had a mild stifle pull and was laid up for a while. It's been working well so far, but not lately. Boots are clunky, and in my opinion tacky, do not work well in general. :no: Footing won't "be better" until it dries up again. Temporary?? I dunno, I'd classify this as seasonal. I'd rather go back to 'what works', right? :yes:

[Dune]

Just realize that a wet/dry cycle with shoes often leads to its own set of problems.


Never had a problem before.

[Dune]

Dune, before you do the shoes, just try doing the Borax thing. Pour a couple of tablespoons in a water bottle, fill up with hot water and shake it up. Every day, clean the feet, brush them out really well and then pour it over the frogs. See if your horsie feels better.

I swear, I am continually amazed at this. When it rains, I just do it now and no more sore-in-the-wet horses. Fungus must be one insidious MoFo.


Ok, but it's really not "that wet" here. It's been rainy a few days and then dry for days, I really have NO reason to suspect a fungus of any sort whatsoever. I'm not sure that I want to combine the Keratex product with Borax if there is NO good reason to do so. :confused: If you are insistent on this, please PM me. ;)

[DesignerLabel]

Have your vet or farrier check for white line disease. I've seen soreness as you describe in affected horses.

Liz

[Bluey]

Your horse is one of those that need shoes to be comfortable, so why not keep him shod?

We had a ranch horse like that, not lame, but sorefooted and ouchy without shoes and, since we do not use our horses much any more, we don't shoe, just trim.
After seven years of trying with him, we sold him at 13 to someone that trail rides, does arena roping and keeps shoes on their horses.
The horse is doing fine under that management.

We had the horse x-rayed when we first fought that problem and here and there over the years and the vets said he just had soft feet, a thin sole and it just was him.
You could squish his soles when we had a wet spell and nothing would keep them from doing that.
There was no pathology inside the foot.
Shoes kept his feet protected enough for him to be comfortable.

Now, your horse may not be like this one, but if shoes help, why not use them?;)

[LMH]

You would hammer nails into an animal's feet because boots are tacky?:confused:

I am sorry but that is just absurd.

Either way you have made your choice-from every post you are seeking permission to shoe your horse...so shoe him and let's stop another bare vs. shod thread.

There is no point whatsoever in this discussion when you have made your choice.

[Bluey]

You would hammer nails into an animal's feet because boots are tacky?:confused:

I am sorry but that is just absurd.

Either way you have made your choice-from every post you are seeking permission to shoe your horse...so shoe him and let's stop another bare vs. shod thread.

There is no point whatsoever in this discussion when you have made your choice.

This should not be about shoeing or not, but about doing what is best for each horse.
There are some horses that live more comfortably with shoes on their feet.
Why not accomodate them, why trying to make ALL horses fit some theory?:confused:

[JB]

Goodness, LMH was not saying this horse had to go barefoot! All she was saying, as well as a couple others, including myself, is that if the horse is sore, the OP won't consider boots but would consider trying Keratex again, then that doesn't really leave many options - shoes. And it IS silly, IMHO, to throw out boots because they are clunky and tacky. Boots DO work for the situation described - it's a matter of finding the boot model that fits the particularly feet in question. There are better reasons to not want to use boots. But honestly, if Dune just simply wants to put shoes back on, have at it, it really doesn't bother any of us.

[J Swan]

Yeah - that's what I kinda got as well.

Horse is sore - but no boots - and the horse can't go barefoot because it's sore but the OP doesn't know why the horse is sore but it can't wear boots and it can't go barefoot.

Round and round we go. Well - put shoes on then. QED.

Personally, if a horse was footsore I'd want to find out why before just nailing shoes on - but that's just me. I can think of many reasons a barefoot (or even shod) horse would be footsore that have absolutely nothing to do with being barefoot or shod.

Does that make sense? :winkgrin:

[JB]

Yes, that makes perfect sense.

Perhaps (and what I think is most likely) the soles are thin enough that the brief periods of moisture that we HAVE had make them soft enough to be very unprotective of the inner structures. Shoes don't fix that problem, but they do alleviate the symptoms. Whether the underlying trim is the cause of the thin(er) soles is unknown, but a possibility at this point.

[Daydream Believer]

.
Personally, if a horse was footsore I'd want to find out why before just nailing shoes on - but that's just me. I can think of many reasons a barefoot (or even shod) horse would be footsore that have absolutely nothing to do with being barefoot or shod.

Does that make sense? :winkgrin:

Bingo! Take an atta girl and a pat on the back! ;)

Just putting shoes on when you don't know why a normally comfortable barefoot horse is now sore is possibly not going to do you a lick of good, cost money and in the end, you may still have a problem.

[Sobriska]

JSwan: Makes perfect sense to me.
I have also been told that soles thin some in winter. By someone who is really into reading Bowker etc. I do not take that as a fact, but admit it may have some bearing on MY horse this time of year. What also may have some bearing is that I admittedly do not have the time to condition him properly on the tougher surfaces. He lives in a soft pasture, and mostly works on the same soft surface. I believe he would be LOTS better rain or no rain IF I took the time to condition him to harder surfaces. Boots work well for MY horse. So I use them. He is SO much better now than he was when he was shod. Go figure:)
To the OP: Best wishes with your horse whatever you decide.

[Dune]

You would hammer nails into an animal's feet because boots are tacky?:confused:

I am sorry but that is just absurd.

Either way you have made your choice-from every post you are seeking permission to shoe your horse...so shoe him and let's stop another bare vs. shod thread.

There is no point whatsoever in this discussion when you have made your choice.


Yep, I said it, boots are clunky and tacky. :uhoh: I think they're fine on a temporary basis. For instance, you lose a shoe on the trail and need a back-up or you pull the shoe because of an abscess and horse needs a little protection. All in all, I really haven't liked how horses "go" in them. I'm talking about horses that compete at a fairly high level in dressage/jumping. I've never seen any horses compete at all in them. :no: Maybe in endurance or something like that where horses are not judged on their way of moving/going more like fitness/recovery but I'm not familar with that discipline. Personally, I just don't think they offer that much more protection than being barefoot and I don't like the fact that they are "hugging" the foot, it seems much more unnatural than even a shoe. MY opinion. :yes: OH, and it wouldn't be ME hammering nails into my horse's foot, it would be my farrier, because I'd agree...that would be absurd.:p To clarify, I'm not seeking permission from anyone to shoe this horse, I was just wondering if anyone else had experienced this and if I was covering all my bases. I like the idea of keeping them barefoot for as long as possible and as long as it works for the comfort of the horse. So...back to shoes for this one. And yes, at this point I don't see any point for further discussion, you've made your stand clear as I've made mine. Let's see if you can contain yourself. :winkgrin:

[LMH]

Let's see if you can contain yourself. :winkgrin:

I actually think I did quite well at containing myself...I even implied 'shoe your horse' which is pretty huge for me.;)

You are correct as far as showing-boots are not a winner there...but as far as your other conclusions-boots offer far more protection that straight barefoot and as far as hugging the foot? Not sure why that is more offensive that nails.

J Swan makes the most sense-your horse has something that should be addressed. Bet money it is improper hoof form that is from weak structures.

Just something to consider.

So curious-why did you start this thread? What answer were you hoping for?

[J Swan]

Aw heck. We're making stands?

I don't wanna make a stand. My house is freezing, and I'm in my old lady chair with a shawl on.

Your horse's soles probably softened; then he got sore from bruising or from taking some wrong steps. The bruising may or may not be evident. Hoof testers might help determine where the soreness lies. If it is highly localized, it might just be a bruise or abscess. If it is over the entire sole - well -heck - you may want to call your vet.

If the horse is sore, he may not like a farrier hammering on his hoof. So if you end up getting the farrier out - warn the guy first. Horses usually don't.

[JB]

it seems much more unnatural than even a shoe.

We weren't talking about natural vs unnatural :) Merely suggesting that shoes might not solve the underlying problem and that boots might just allow you to work through this (possibly temporary) time. This does not mean shoes are the wrong thing to do, so nobody needs to start in on that ;)

[Bluey]

Our horse with the scarily squishy soles, so bad neither the vet, farrier or ourselves had seen anything like it, would stand there happily, letting the farrier nail shoes on.
He only put them in front, his hind feet were not affected.
His walls were not affected and evidently concussion to the hoof didn't hurt, only walking on those soft, funny soles.
They only became soft like that when we had a prolonged wet spell.
Since we are practically in the desert SW, that was not very often.

[LMH]

Come on J Swan...make a stand! You can do it! State an opinion and make it sound like fact! Let me know it is your way or the highway!

Live on the edge! Start a trainwreck!

You

Can

Do

It.

:lol:

[Lookout]

And yes, at this point I don't see any point for further discussion, you've made your stand clear as I've made mine. Let's see if you can contain yourself. :winkgrin:
How obnoxious, coming on here, informing people of your plans/decisions but phrasing it in the form of a question, then daring people to not respond.

[J Swan]

Aw heck - I've never started one, have I. I've participated in them.... but don't think I've ever started one.

Well - you'll have to wait until either my blood sugar drops, or my mother calls me and complains I never come to visit. Either one puts me in a lousy mood.

You know - it's amazing how few people seem to use hoof testers when their horses feet seem to be sore. I wonder why that is? Guess sometimes it's a pretty obvious problem?

I have noticed lately there are an inordinate number of threads from people who either want group hugs, someone to pray for them, or vindication. If one responds without the expected hug, prayer or smiley face - the poster gets all huffy.

What's up with that?


Come on J Swan...make a stand! You can do it! State an opinion and make it sound like fact! Let me know it is your way or the highway!

Live on the edge! Start a trainwreck!

You

Can

Do

It.

:lol:

[Daydream Believer]

You know - it's amazing how few people seem to use hoof testers when their horses feet seem to be sore. I wonder why that is? Guess sometimes it's a pretty obvious problem?


I ended up buying a pair of hoof testers a few years ago when I had one of those trouble prone horses who would always seem to come in gimping once a month for some reason. I'd pay money to have the vet come out, put the hoof testers on, get a flinch and declare a bruise! (this was a shod horse too). They are very handy to have around and now I have 25 or 26 (lost count) barefoot horses in my pastures, I haven't needed them for years. Go figure! :lol:

[LMH]

It is the rhetorical post? That is what it must be.

As far as hooftesters...good question-maybe some people don't have them, don't know how to properly use them, or feel they are not specific in helping?

Not sure about that one.

Well here is hoping your mother calls after you miss lunch so we can see what you have in you! :P

[LMH]

How obnoxious, coming on here, informing people of your plans/decisions but phrasing it in the form of a question, then daring people to not respond.

That's ok Lookout-she dared *me* not to respond... imagine that...*me* stepping away from the keyboard!:lol:

And add in it is miserably cold, my laundry is finished, bills are paid, hooves are trimmed...so I feel very attached to my keyboard today. :D

[AZ Native]

Did the diet change in any way ?

[J Swan]

I ended up buying a pair of hoof testers a few years ago when I had one of those trouble prone horses who would always seem to come in gimping once a month for some reason. I'd pay money to have the vet come out, put the hoof testers on, get a flinch and declare a bruise! (this was a shod horse too). They are very handy to have around and now I have 25 or 26 (lost count) barefoot horses in my pastures, I haven't needed them for years. Go figure! :lol:


Well, you know what will happen. You'll get rid of them and all of your horses will come in 3 legged the next day.

It's some sort of vast conspiracy among equines.

LMH - My mom went back to work today. Trust me - the last two weeks I have been screening my calls!!

And I really would like to eat and entire pizza. With extra cheese.

Sigh...

[Dune]

So curious-why did you start this thread? What answer were you hoping for?


Already answered that one.

[enjoytheride]

I think the OP is trying to find out if her situation is typical.

While the ground is wet and his feet get softer I would just expect him to be sore on asphalt and large rocks, which sounds like most of your riding area (you do road work?). Your farrier probably notices the softer feet but never thought to tell you, ask him if he notices a difference. I would say not uncommon at all, especially in locations that get muddy and mushy.

If you had an indoor arena you would probably never notice a difference because the footing would be softer, same as if you rode on grass all the time. If you can't avoid riding on the harder ground you might want to shoe him.

I only had to shoe my horse during show season because of all the asphalt and large rocks. He was fine showing in pea gravel arenas, schooling XC, show jumping, dressage, and trails. But miserable getting to those areas! So I shoed him for 3 months for his comfort. Made sense to me.

[Dune]

Your horse's soles probably softened; then he got sore from bruising or from taking some wrong steps. The bruising may or may not be evident. Hoof testers might help determine where the soreness lies. If it is highly localized, it might just be a bruise or abscess. If it is over the entire sole - well -heck - you may want to call your vet.

If the horse is sore, he may not like a farrier hammering on his hoof. So if you end up getting the farrier out - warn the guy first. Horses usually don't.

We've already taken this step. Farrier/vet are thinking the same way as I am, shoes may be necessary. I'm just trying to see if there is anything else I haven't considered, but it sounds like in addition to taking a stand, I've now covered my bases. :lol:

We weren't talking about natural vs unnatural :) Merely suggesting that shoes might not solve the underlying problem and that boots might just allow you to work through this (possibly temporary) time. This does not mean shoes are the wrong thing to do, so nobody needs to start in on that ;)

Well, it's my thread and if I want to talk natural vs unnatural, I will. My party and all. :winkgrin:

How obnoxious, coming on here, informing people of your plans/decisions but phrasing it in the form of a question, then daring people to not respond.

Wow, do you know how to win a girl over. :eek: It was a question from the beginning, but there are certain things that I'd already done and others that I wasn't willing to do. I was trying to narrow it down so that I didn't have a lot of suggestions that wouldn't fit into my program. If it bothers you so much, you don't have to read the thread....




You know - it's amazing how few people seem to use hoof testers when their horses feet seem to be sore. I wonder why that is? Guess sometimes it's a pretty obvious problem?

See above, already done.


If one responds without the expected hug, prayer or smiley face - the poster gets all huffy.


:):):):) Wouldn't want anyone to get all huffy.

?

[Dune]

I think the OP is trying to find out if her situation is typical.

While the ground is wet and his feet get softer I would just expect him to be sore on asphalt and large rocks, which sounds like most of your riding area (you do road work?). Your farrier probably notices the softer feet but never thought to tell you, ask him if he notices a difference. I would say not uncommon at all, especially in locations that get muddy and mushy.

If you had an indoor arena you would probably never notice a difference because the footing would be softer, same as if you rode on grass all the time. If you can't avoid riding on the harder ground you might want to shoe him.

I only had to shoe my horse during show season because of all the asphalt and large rocks. He was fine showing in pea gravel arenas, schooling XC, show jumping, dressage, and trails. But miserable getting to those areas! So I shoed him for 3 months for his comfort. Made sense to me.

A voice of reason, what a joy! :D We have gravel driveways around the property and to get to the arena and trail system you have to walk across these areas. In the arenas and on the galloping track (soft footing), this horse is fine. I noticed the difference and informed my farrier who was skeptical (gave me the "really?!" look) since the horse was fine all summer on the dry/hard ground and the feet are beautiful, I mean they look fantastic strong and healthy. They are very well balanced and not chipped at all. He put the hoof testers on and had a small reaction, not bad enough to recommend shoes at this time but we discussed it. However, I'm just not happy with the way the horse feels under saddle across those areas. Since nothing else has changed: diet/farrier/major injury etc. I think that it must just be the slight softening due to the wet weather, although again it hasn't been super wet and this horse doesn't live in mud (although when it rains the "out" portion of the stall is wet for a few days). For this little guy, it must be just enough to throw him off though. Oh well...

[enjoytheride]

If you are just crossing those areas then I would consider leading him or walking slowly and leave his shoes off. Occasionally while trail riding I would hit patches of asphalt or gravel and just give my horse his head to gimp across those areas. He was never sore after those rides. I could do gallop sets in the middle of August on hard grass covered ground and he was never footsore.

The only trail I had problems on had large portions of the trail going through asphalt roads or on gravel roads with BIG rocks. Instead of a quick gimp across that it was 10 minutes or so on it. I did not go back to that trail after that. If you kept him in a stall overnight to let his feet dry and apply keratex you might notice a difference that way (I think keratex then right back to wet would be a waste), but he might perfer his 24/7 turnout!

So, extended period of time on gravel? Shoe if you don't consider booting an option. Quick blips over gravel? Cross in the softest area possible and remain barefoot.

My horse also had wider flatter feet and he was a big heavy guy so I think it affected him more then smaller horses with more upright concave feet.

[Lauren!]

This particular horse was NEVER sore in shoes, another poster (Sobriska) posted something about her horse being sore in shoes and those not versed in reading comprehension got derailed. :rolleyes: This horse was SUPER sound in shoes, even on asphalt and crushed asphalt and will be going back to that if necessary. I pulled shoes earlier this Spring because said horse had a mild stifle pull and was laid up for a while. It's been working well so far, but not lately. Boots are clunky, and in my opinion tacky, do not work well in general. :no: Footing won't "be better" until it dries up again. Temporary?? I dunno, I'd classify this as seasonal. I'd rather go back to 'what works', right? :yes:

Sure, whatever works for you :D I'm glad your horse went well in shoes, I didn't see anything in your post to indicate otherwise but thought I might have missed something. If you were happier with how your horse went in shoes, then by all means, go back to that! My horse did NOT do that well in plain steel, which is why I would hesitate to go back to them for him... but that's a different case than yours. (Incidently all boots aren't clunky... some certainly are, but I've chosen ones for my horse that are not, and I switched a few things on them so they are very close fitting and secure and work great for us... tacky is in the eye of the beholder of course, they are certainly not appropriate for the hunters, but he doesn't wear them all the time or in the hunters, so no worries here!)

Wet/dry cycles can be a problem for a lot of horses (shod or not), but it's something to be aware of, not worry about. Keratex is super stuff regardless, I just wish I was better and more consistient with applying regularly :no:

[JB]

Endurance horses aren't judged on their way of going? :confused: Maybe "judged" isn't a good word.

I'm pretty sure what she meant was it doesn't matter if an endurance horse has lots of knee action, but if a Hunter (who couldn't wear them in the ring anyway, but that's beside the point) had too much knee action because of the "clunky" boots, it would be an issue. "Way of going" isn't necessarily about sound or lame.

And, Dune did explain that she was looking for other possible reasons as to why the horse might be sore, so it really wasn't a totally useless thread.

[Dune]

Endurance horses aren't judged on their way of going? :confused: Maybe "judged" isn't a good word. How about "disqualified" and receive a "did not complete" note on their permanent AERC record. At every vet stop the horse is scrutinized on their way of going, attitude, metabolic scores, etc. They have to walk and trot both on the straight and often on the circle to both directions. They have to show soundness, impulsion and purity of gait in order to pass the exam and move on down the trail. Even after you've completed the race, you have another post-ride vet check and soundness and way of going is judged again. One ride I did last year required us to work out horses on a 10 meter circle in the sharp gravel. A nice soft grassy lawn was just a few meters away, but the vets want to get a real good look and just "how" sound your horse is.


Perhaps I should have said movement...I certainly didn't mean soundness....but there is a big difference in the way a hunter or dressage horse (or any "show" horse) "goes" in an arena versus the way an endurance horse "goes" out in the open and on rough terrain. They are just totally different and one wouldn't be suitable for the other (not the specific horse, I know some can cross over, but not the majority). I hope that is clear as mud. :lol:

I don't know about you, but in endurance (or just plain trail riding), you might be 10 or 20 miles away from the nearest hint of civilization. If boots were all that unnatural, dangerous, or offered no more protection than barefoot, I guarantee endurance and trail riders wouldn't trust them.

I didn't call them unnatural, I was just trying to stave off the inevitable. The minute we "keep" horses it is unnatural, not wanting to start that thread, it's been done. I didn't say that they were dangerous. I agree that they are more protection than barefoot but less than shoes, IMO. (you're kinda putting words in my mouth, uh ...writing.:yes::winkgrin:)

As far as being "tacky" well, that just sounds like DQ speak to me. But hey, I'm just a tacky ole endurance bum so I guess tacky is ok in my book. :D Here's my tacky little mare in her tacky little boots. I thought she was cute, but hey, I can handle tacky too I suppose! http://www.hphoofcare.com/boots3.jpg


Ok, your horse is freakin' adorable and not tacky at all, but yes, I'm sorry...the boots are. :uhoh: They just don't cut it in the horse show world, but if they work great for you...super! It's just not for me and doesn't fit in with our program.

Boots have worked quite well for me, and thousands of other people. Many of the mounted patrol units use Old Mac's now instead of steel shoes.

I'm sure that they work for that purpose, it's not that. BUT again, those horses are not for the same use as mine are, that's all. Many, many others use shoes too....

I'm confused where you got the idea that they generally don't work very well?

Never said that....:no:



If you'd already made up your mind to re-shoe, then I'm a little unclear why you started this thread?

Again, never said that in the beginning, this thread has led me to most likely making that decision though. So I'm very glad that I did start this thread...temporary derailment and all. :yes:

In any case - being ouchie after wet weather is normal for shoeless horses. I use boots on trails that I normally wouldn't after a week straight of rain. Hooves take on water and can get softer and weaker after prolonged exposure, the same as your fingernails do in the dishwater.

Thank you! THAT is the kind of answer I was hoping for and other people have given that same input as well. Being at a show barn with primarily shod horses and just a few barefoot pleasure horses, when I asked all of them, they looked at me with the HUH? look. I was thinking this little one must be a freak of nature, but I guess not. :)


.l

[Bluey]

Really, not all barefoot horses get sore when it is wet, only some.
We only had one over many horses and years, so I doubt that it is normal for many to get sore when wet.

If the horses get sore and depending on how sore they get and if you are going to be riding your horse, if you put shoes he won't be sore any more.
If you don't care if he is sore and are not riding him, well, leaving him barefoot to cope is what some seem to do.

[Dune]

[quote=Bluey;2916201]Really, not all barefoot horses get sore when it is wet, only some.
quote]


If this is true/typical, I have to wonder WHY? :confused:

[Bluey]

[quote=Bluey;2916201]Really, not all barefoot horses get sore when it is wet, only some.
quote]


If this is true/typical, I have to wonder WHY? :confused:

Of course, we are assuming you have a vet diagnosis first, then you may have your why.
With our ONE horse, all the vets could find was a very thin sole.

We had one horse that had a crack on the front of the coffin bone and was generally sore on that one foot when wet or when very hard over clumpy ground, until it healed.
He also had an abcess from it, but all that was transient and he healed fine.
We bought him from a feedlot, where the seller had used him since he was young and now assumed he was a little sore so he needed to change management.
Our vet said he would heal fine, that the hoof makes a very good cast for his problem and to give him a few months.
He healed well in about 6 months, not being sore again when the ground was too wet or hard and uneven.

[JB]

Really, not all barefoot horses get sore when it is wet, only some.



If this is true/typical, I have to wonder WHY? :confused:


THIS is why I intially said, and others followed suit, that in the ideal world (and I realize we don't all live there), one would figure out why *your* horse gets sore after some wet environment. The main reason is soles thin enough to become soft enough to not protect the coffin bone. THAT is a problem, and not one that shoes solve - they only make the symptoms go away.

If you are currently showing in a discipline that does not allow boots, and have no desire to stop showing while you get the feet straightened out, then you don't have much choice but to put shoes back on. But if you AREN'T showing, or can/want to take the time to get the feet healthier, then boots become a viable alternative for the time being.

[Dune]

THIS is why I intially said, and others followed suit, that in the ideal world (and I realize we don't all live there), one would figure out why *your* horse gets sore after some wet environment. The main reason is soles thin enough to become soft enough to not protect the coffin bone. THAT is a problem, and not one that shoes solve - they only make the symptoms go away.

If you are currently showing in a discipline that does not allow boots, and have no desire to stop showing while you get the feet straightened out, then you don't have much choice but to put shoes back on. But if you AREN'T showing, or can/want to take the time to get the feet healthier, then boots become a viable alternative for the time being.

This horse doesn't have thin soles and does not have any pathology that would be reason for this to happen, I guess that's why I have the :confused: look. The feet are healthy and don't need to be "straightened out". I guess it's more of an individual thing....kinda like when you have a horse with x-rays that look fine but they're unsound versus horses like one I used to own and show/ride 4th/PSG and when they take the x-rays the vet says, "This horse is still standing/sound/showing???!!!" :eek::yes: Oh well, thanks guys/gals for your input, I guess I'll try the shoes and see how it goes...

[JB]

This horse doesn't have thin soles and does not have any pathology that would be reason for this to happen, I guess that's why I have the :confused: look.
Can I ask in a very honestly inquisitive manner - how do you know the soles are not thin? Xrays are the only way to know for sure.

The feet are healthy and don't need to be "straightened out". I guess it's more of an individual thing....kinda like when you have a horse with x-rays that look fine but they're unsound versus horses like one I used to own and show/ride 4th/PSG and when they take the x-rays the vet says, "This horse is still standing/sound/showing???!!!" :eek::yes: Oh well, thanks guys/gals for your input, I guess I'll try the shoes and see how it goes...
It is all very individual, for sure. I do think that some horses genetically have thinner soles that cannot stand up to too much wet ground and hard footing. Even beyond that, I think it's a matter how how thin is too thin for any given horse, since they all have different thresholds of pain tolerance.

How does the frog look? Is it full? TOO full? If the frog got soft and is now in too much contact with the ground, that can be ouchy. Some trimmers will shave off little bits of the frog at a time, stopping within reason, and judge the movement on a harder surface to see if that is potentially an issue with soreness - starting with the assumption of course that the frog is in too much contact with the ground.

[Lookout]

How does the frog look? Is it full? TOO full? If the frog got soft and is now in too much contact with the ground, that can be ouchy.
Good point. If the hoof became more flexible all around, the frog may not have been contacting the ground at all before, and now if the hoof 'opens' more due to its flexibility the frog may now be contacting the ground, and if too long (tall) could cause soreness.

[Dune]

Can I ask in a very honestly inquisitive manner - how do you know the soles are not thin? Xrays are the only way to know for sure.


Of course, that is the only way to assess, that has already been evaluated.

It is all very individual, for sure. I do think that some horses genetically have thinner soles that cannot stand up to too much wet ground and hard footing. Even beyond that, I think it's a matter how how thin is too thin for any given horse, since they all have different thresholds of pain tolerance.

Pretty much what I stated above and agree with as well. However, if we have one that has a decent amount of sole and is still sore, I would not want to try to "manufacture" more sore on the theory that would help. I've also seen too much sole (as in false) make a horse very sore as well as all kinds of things can hide. (abscess, for one)

How does the frog look? Is it full? TOO full? If the frog got soft and is now in too much contact with the ground, that can be ouchy. Some trimmers will shave off little bits of the frog at a time, stopping within reason, and judge the movement on a harder surface to see if that is potentially an issue with soreness - starting with the assumption of course that the frog is in too much contact with the ground.

Frog is not too tall, I know exactly what you are referring to. Feet really are quite lovely, you'll have to just take my word for it and my gut says, along with the hoof test results that it's the soles that are just too flexible when wet and perhaps not "tough" enough for this particular horse to be comfortable on hard/rocky ground when wet. Horse was not sore in the frog area.
l

[JB]

Thanks for not taking my questions as accusatory :)

I do agree with not trying to "manufacture" sole - allow it to develop to it's fullest, but not even try to allow/create any "false" sole.

Good luck, you know your horse best :)

[Lookout]

I do agree with not trying to "manufacture" sole - allow it to develop to it's fullest, but not even try to allow/create any "false" sole.



How would one do that? How would you 'manufacture' sole, or converseley, prevent any 'false' sole?

[jack mac]

How would one do that? How would you 'manufacture' sole, or converseley, prevent any 'false' sole?its easy haven't you ever heard of genies, with every one they throw in a magic flying rug, its easy you just find an old lantern & give it a rub make shore you wish for think soles on your first wish, because if you wish indervidually you wont have a forth wish to complete the job & you will have to find another old lantern ;):D

[Lookout]

JB, Dune, would you mind ignoring the above post and explaining about manufacturing sole, I'm genuiinely interested in what you mean. :)

[JB]

I just used a word that Dune used in quotes - it didn't really mean one could :)

[Lookout]

What about the second part, not allowing false sole to be created - what does it mean, and how would one ensure that?

[Dune]

Well, my reference was to some barefoot trimmers that supposedly were trained by some of the big names mentioned on this forum. One also did the natural balance shoeing. What I saw them do over and over again was never trim down to live sole, so that the horse just kept the sole...kinda like JB was asking about the frog...but picture the sole just getting taller and taller. It was ridiculous and they kept saying how now the horse had thicker soles. :eek::no: Well, said horse was still lame, and this horse is particular (when gal finally took him to a "regular" farrier) had a couple of small abscesses in one foot. Once that was relieved and horse was trimmed (to my way of thinking) more "normally" he was fine, just fine. And this horse was one the barefoot/natural balance folks had all taken a poke at at one time or another. My point is that basically horses have the foot they were born with (duh! :winkgrin:) and there's only so much you can do with it, get the best farrier you can afford and do the best you can for your horse. I'm over someone telling me that there sure I'm doing something wrong if the horse needs shoes or that they can fix whatever my vet/farrier/trainer/I can't. (just in general, not specifically in reference to this thread)

[Lookout]

Thanks for the explanation Dune, I agree with you on that.

[Lauren!]

What I saw them do over and over again was never trim down to live sole, so that the horse just kept the sole...kinda like JB was asking about the frog...but picture the sole just getting taller and taller. It was ridiculous and they kept saying how now the horse had thicker soles. :eek::no:

Assuming the horse isn't kept in a soft totally dry stall 24/7, wouldn't the dead layers slough off in the course of normal work, turnout, etc? I understand what you're saying (and no, huge chunks of dead sole probably wouldn't be a good thing) but I've never see anything like that on any horse, barefoot or shod, some of which I know the soles haven't been trimmed on in years (granted, I know and have horses that are at least pasture sound and active, not stall bound, but still...) Isn't dead sole... well, dead? And likely to shed itself like skin without someone actively trimming it off?

[JB]

Assuming the horse isn't kept in a soft totally dry stall 24/7, wouldn't the dead layers slough off in the course of normal work, turnout, etc?

It depends. If the horse is turned out alot, but on lush thick grass, there isn't much abrasion there either. And, to some degree I think it depends on the horse. I have 3 horses at home. 1 is ridden, 2 are not. The ridden one rarely has much exfoliating sole, as part of his ridden work is in a screenings ring. One of the unridden horses also rarely has much exfoliating sole. However, the other unridden one - exact same environment as the 1st unridden one, which is red clay, grass, some gravel, stalled for 2 hours a day - doesn't ever seem to "let go" of his shedding sole. With him, each trim starts out with a "flat" sole and ends with nice concavity simply by scraping off shedding sole with the NON-sharpened side of the knife - it's really soft flakey stuff.