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Sabine
Dec. 30, 2007, 02:05 AM
Sorry I don't come here often but have a question/concern that I would like to hear opinions on-

I have 3 dogs and about 5 years ago - when I got my beloved Giant Schnauzer- the breeder made me sign a contract whereby the dog was not to receive vaccinations beyond 2 years of age and only got wormed if there was indication of the need for it.
Recently I got into a semi-argument with my equine vet about vaccinations- as she likes to do every 3 month a whole battery of shots. To top it off - I recently consulted a quite well respected healer on the health level of my horse- and she confirmed that he had unnecessary liver strain- due to over vaccination.
I since have researched the topic and would like to know if there are folks out there that feel alike and have recommendations.
Specifically I would like know about

-organic wormers
-required vaccinations vs. commonly assumed necessary vaccinations
-any research in regards to cushings and over vaccinations
-validity of titres to proove that sufficient antibodies are present to protect the horse.


Thank you all in advance for contributing.

ToTheNines
Dec. 30, 2007, 08:18 AM
I could go on a bit about this subject. At my advanced age (55), I am becoming a convert to holistic horsekeeping as a supplement to my (wonderful) equine vet. I am lucky to live in Austin, where we have a highly respected vet/guru. I highly recommend her website, holistichorsekeeping.com for discussions of your questions.

My personal take on holistic approaches is that you cannot learn too much about nutrition. And supplements and herbs are drugs, so we should not just throw them in the feed bucket without educating ourselves what they are.

I am a far cry from not worming or vaccinating, but I will say that I am struggling with a horse that developed headshaking after a flu/rhino vaccination. I am investigating whether it was the particular brand or type of vaccination, and if not, whether I should only do that vaccination in response to titer levels, not "just because".

Lambie Boat
Dec. 30, 2007, 08:42 AM
my mare coliced and almost died right after getting West Nile shot in 2006. I did not give that shot this year, although I was concerned and nervous not to. There is no way I would give shots every 3 months. That sounds excessive to me.

I de-worm w/ ivermectin 3x Rotectin 1x, but would not feed daily dewormer and would not use Quest. I tried the 5 day Panacur one year, and will not be doing that again either. Mostly because by the 3rd day, the horses ran away from me :D

my horsey peeps think I'm nuts and reckless. I do not give my horses lots of vitamins, supplements, BOSS, paprika, garlic, seaweed, mushroom or anything other than selenium (oregon is lacking), lovely hay, a little grain mix, and fresh clean water. Less is more.

they are in fine flesh. their coats gleam like new money.

deltawave
Dec. 30, 2007, 09:01 AM
I could go on about this subject, too. :D

You have to consider, in EACH AND EVERY health-based decision you make for you or your loved ones, RISK VS. BENEFIT.

Parasites were once an enormous problem for horses, causing innumerable colics and other health issues.

Same for communicable diseases. Although we don't have ideal vaccinations for every disease or even ANY vaccines for many diseases, the ones we have are by and large SAFE. There are, of course, exceptions to the rule and you will ALWAYS hear those tales loudly and clearly. The vast, enormous majority of people who vaccinate regularly and have no problems whatsoever RARELY speak up. :)

Ever seen a dog die of parvovirus? I have. NOT pretty. Completely preventable.

Ever seen the aorta of a horse that died from dissection due to strongyles? HORRIBLE sight.

Some of these things are SO RARE nowadays, because of proper prevention. We have short memories...kids used to DIE of measles, pertussis and other horrible childhood diseases, most of which have been all but eradicated due to vaccination.

BY ALL MEANS, do your homework. You have to decide what's right for you and your animals. But if you'd take one piece of advice from someone who clearly is on "one side" of the argument and makes no apologies for it, PLEASE PLEASE consider the source of the information you gather. Especially on topics like this, there is an AWFUL lot of bullsh*t out there! :)

JHUshoer20
Dec. 30, 2007, 09:30 AM
Of possible interest here is a link to a discussion we had a while ago about this on horseshoes.http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2623 I think it good to be not 100% trusting of these things. Not for human or veterinary medicine. There really is a lot to this, check out www.tetrahedron.org
George

Avra
Dec. 30, 2007, 09:43 AM
I don't know about CA, but in MD I think it would be problematic not to have your dog vaccinated regularly for rabies, unless it never left your property. I would never in a million years sign a release like that for ANY animal.

deltawave
Dec. 30, 2007, 10:20 AM
George, you ARE joking, right? RIGHT?

From the "tetrahedron" site, I give you this:


According to Dr. Horowitz’s latest of sixteen books, Da Vinci’s most famous drawing, “The Vitruvian Man,” is a cryptograph providing “Divine direction” for advancing technologies crucial for civilization’s evolution.


Dr. Leonard Horowitz provides an unparalleled peek into the Creator’s technology. He unearths compelling scientific evidence of your spiritual existence, and gives practical advice for your success as a powerful co-creator.


In this riveting presentation, Dr. Leonard Horowitz relays more than a decade of his research evidencing nefarious tinkering with microbial, plant, animal, and human biology befitting a massive conspiracy to place profits before people and population control before compassionate medicine. Dr. Horowitz presents solid proof that the most powerful industry on earth—the petrochemical–pharmaceutical cartel—aided by corruption, greed, and incompetence by officials in government, scientific organizations, and academic institutions, has seriously endangered the life and health of myriad forms on this chemically and pharmaceutically beleaguered planet.

WOAH, baby! Cue the "Twilight Zone" music! :eek:

This is a BEAUTIFUL example of what I mean by CONSIDER THE SOURCE. Wow....somebody is smoking something SERIOUSLY powerful over there. :no:

JHUshoer20
Dec. 30, 2007, 10:25 AM
This is a BEAUTIFUL example of what I mean by CONSIDER THE SOURCE. Wow.
His credentials are excellent. He's testified before congress on these matters and has been researching this issue for many years. His education is from Harvard and not Middleham. How much more qualified would you like him to be?
George

Sabine
Dec. 30, 2007, 10:41 AM
I don't know about CA, but in MD I think it would be problematic not to have your dog vaccinated regularly for rabies, unless it never left your property. I would never in a million years sign a release like that for ANY animal.

Sorry about that- Rabies is not excluded from her list. She requires a titre for everything else- which is totally doable on a dog because it's not very expensive.

Liz
Dec. 30, 2007, 11:04 AM
Sabine - I can see where you are coming from questioning how many vaccinations your horse might need. My guy had a serious reaction to a vaccine, finally through process of elimination, we were able to figure out that it was rhino. Each time he has gotten the vaccine, even when premedicated, his reaction has been worse than the time before. Needless to say, he will no longer get this vaccine.

You might take into account how much traffic is at your barn. Do you have a lot of horses coming in and out, do you go to a lot of shows. What type of exposure does your horse get to other animals?

I personally am not real big on the daily wormer but I do believe in worming bimonthly.

pintopiaffe
Dec. 30, 2007, 11:06 AM
You have to consider, in EACH AND EVERY health-based decision you make for you or your loved ones, RISK VS. BENEFIT.

I had two horses react very badly to WNV vax the second year it was available, the year after loosing a horse to Quest. Those two events started me on my (continuing) journey to educate myself. Around the same time a very, very large APHA breeder I was peripherally associated with via my partner farm had an abortion storm related to vaccination. It confirmed for me I was on the right track.

I think you are asking excellent questions, and there is certainly middle ground between NO vaccinations and NO deworming and the dispensing of Vax and wormers as routine.

I do 'minimal' vax and worming. And then spend probably a similar amount of time and $$ creating an environment that lends towards health. Minimum host sites for parasites, (manure management in pastures) full turnout, healthy guts, etc.

I wish I had more cites for you. They are out there. Particularly the newer studies showing vaccinations last longer than we originally thought.

For many though, prevention is about convenience, and plentiful and often vaccines and deworming on a tight schedule are far more convenient than the type of prevention that takes time and effort that can be very lacking in folk's lives. That's a choice too. Just not my choice any more.

EqTrainer
Dec. 30, 2007, 11:13 AM
Hey Sabine!

I do think we, as a society, have gotten trained to just do it. Just do the vaccines, just do the deworming, just do it without thought put into it. After years of rehabbing horses, here are my collective thoughts on it, or as much as I can collect after only one cup of coffee :lol:

Deworming: IMO deworming is done too often and not effectively enough (how many times have you seen someone put a single tube of Ivermectin down the throat of a 17h, 1500 lb horse? The tube is for 1100 lbs...) . All of the factors have to be considered, of course.. pasture management, deworming history, the deworming history of your horses friends, where they go, etc. An interesting thing was the study done that showed that some horses seem to carry a heavy worm load in spite of our best efforts. I think those horses need to be identified and dewormed appropriately. I have had a few of them and when I tell people the schedule I put them on, their eyes bug out :lol: but it worked in the end. So I guess what I am saying is.. some horses need the HELL dewormed out of them and some do fine on a light rotational schedule. I do view a yearly PP as essential and I always will. The older horses that I rehab who have NOT had them, have issues that the other horses simply do not. Appparently encysted strongyles ARE the AntiChrist. Further research has got me doing a double Anthelcide (by weight) two weeks after the PP is finished. The results speak for themselves.

So for the "normal" horse I recommend a PP once a year, followed by a double Anthelcide in two weeks. Then 8 weeks later, a double Ivermectin, followed by a Prizantqutal (sp?!!!) product, 6-8 weeks later a double Strongid, 8 weeks later a double Ivermectin, 8 weeks later a Moxidectin product, rinse and repeat. For a horse who is obviously carrying a heavy wormload, I would add a double Ivermectin and a double Strongid in between the Prazanquital and the Moxidectin. I would consider a double Prazantuital if the horse showed any symptoms of neck worms :eek: I would do this until the condition I was treating them for was resolved.

It is interesting and important to remember that horses have parasites other than in their digestive tract. I sat down with a parasitology book while tending a colic one night at the vets office and I was totally blown away by the creepies in their bodies that we are not even aware of. I am convinced that parasites are one of the factors in IR and metabolic disorders, along with a host of other behavioral issues.

Vaccinations: I am a lot more paranoid about vaccinations than dewormers :lol: I think one important thing to remember about them is that they should never be given to a horse that is stressed or has a weakened immune system. IR and metabolic horses should not be vaccinated as they have a tendency for their immune system to overreact and I have seen more than one horse suffer thru this. It can be fatal, and the side effects of the treatment (steroids) for an IR horse can be fatal. So it's simply not worth it in those horses.

I tend to vaccinate the young horses on a much stricter schedule than the older, and I do use the live rhino vaccination and have without issue in healthy horses. As the horse ages I stop giving the whole run of them and start giving them only what I think they may need. I do them myself so I can split them up and I NEVER give more than one at at time. The exception is Tetnus/E & WT, as the tetnus has been shown to boost the efficacy of the E & W.

--

It is important to remember that I deal with horses who are screwed up physically, and that I see the worst of most things here. I will never be able to say what thing is the "thing" that fixes them up, because I have a moral and ethical obligation to not experiment in a way that might cause the horse to fail. But my gut feeling is that it is the strict deworming that is the biggest factor. I think people do their horses a HUGE disservice by underdeworming, or waiting until the horse is showing symptoms of a big worm load to PowerPack. Damage has been done by then, and it may or may not be fixable. Gut damage from encysted strongyles is a big problem to cure, and from what I am seeing, it takes years, not weeks after the deworming. IMO horses really start to show the effects of ineffective deworming processes when they get to be 11,12,13 years old. They fall apart. The horses that we have who have been properly dewormed and managed from babyhood, don't.

grayarabpony
Dec. 30, 2007, 11:14 AM
Are there any studies out there showing titer levels? I vaccinate for West Nile, EEE etc 2X a year, but always wonder if it's really necessary. Do horses just have weak immune systems?

tollertwins
Dec. 30, 2007, 11:17 AM
Depends some on where you live....

dogs:
Here you get parvo every 6 months till the dog's an adult. Used to be every 6 months period, then they found out that adults didn't get it as easily. The others are once per year....In adults a couple are every other year, now, but I don't remember which ones.

horses:
Lots of people vacc for rabies here.

We're also one of the West Nile capitals....we do WN for the horses every 6 months because there's never a time of year where we don't have mosquitoes. EVERYBODY worms regularly (the Gulf Coast is really a swamp in disguise, plus there's not enough turn out to not get parasite loads in the paddocks).

Having said that - the only thing that I've heard of given every 3 months is flu/rhino to horses that are competing a LOT.

lizathenag
Dec. 30, 2007, 11:18 AM
I worm my horse once a year (whether he needs it or not). My vet boards his horses where I do and we discuss this regularly. We do regular fecals and my horse lives in his own big paddock. I don't graze him by the manure pile (which I did as a younger horsewoman).

Liz
Dec. 30, 2007, 11:27 AM
Eqtrainer - I really liked your post. One of the reasons I do not like the daily wormer is I see too many people give the same amount to each horse regardless of weight. Chances are someone is getting under wormed. I can't understand how people can not know how much (or at least have a ball park figure) their horses weigh. Yes, horses loose and gain weight but a responsible owner should have an idea, worming is done by weight (and most other medications for that matter).

If I had my horses at my own place and could manage the pastures effectively I might consider another worming schedule. Now they are in an environment where they come into contact with a lot of other horses so this is not an option.

Appsolute
Dec. 30, 2007, 11:48 AM
Well,

Like some one else mentioned, horses live MUCH longer lives now that we have dewormers and vaccinations available.

I have seen a horse die of tetanus, HORRIBLE site.. could have been prevented by a $12 vac.

I have seen a horse die of the flu... also horrible, and the poor little girl...had to watch her horse die over the course of several weeks (despite intensive care).

I de-worm and vaccinate pretty religously. I have for the 20 years I have owned horses. And not once have I had any sort of "reaction" and my horses have been very healthy. Knock on wood I have not had a single sickness or colic.

The exception being a bout with strangles (before there was an inter-nasal vac.), luckily it didn't turn to some thing like bastard strangles and the horse recovered fine. Now I vaccinate for strangles.

(that said, I don't do "power packs" I don't use tape worm de-wormers -not a problem in my area, and have heard about too many reactions-)

grayarabpony
Dec. 30, 2007, 12:42 PM
Does anyone know how often aneurysm is connected to parasites? Does this show on necropsy?

Eqtrainer, great post. I have always worried about de-worming -- I always got the sense it wasn't enough, or that I was going blind. My youngsters got daily dewormer until they went for training at 5 -- if there were any parasites I'm sure they were resistent to Strongid by then. (The horses also got Ivermectin and Ivermectin Gold 3 or 4 times a year.) I gave up doing manure checks because they were always clean and after reading about how much it can miss, depending on what is being shed out at the time, it felt rather futile.

They have been on a 8 week schedule in the last 2 years.

We're going to the NCSU symposium in Feb -- it will be interesting to hear what Dr. Menigo has to say.

deltawave
Dec. 30, 2007, 01:14 PM
George, what are his credentials, exactly? Lots of people have college degrees. He is a conspiracy theorist.

He has testified before congress on WHICH issue? Anthrax conspiracies, Intelligent Design, Autism epidemics, AIDS conspiracies, or the apocalypse?

He's a NUT JOB. Caveat emptor. :eek:

grayarabpony, here is a citation:



Ischaemic myocardial fibrosis and aortic strongylosis in the horse.

Cranley JJ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Cranley%20JJ%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus), McCullagh KG (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22McCullagh%20KG%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus).
The hearts and aortas of 2076 unselected horses of all ages were examined immediately after slaughter. Focal zones of fibrosis, observed in the myocardium of 14.3 per cent of hearts examined, were found in both atria and ventricles and were unrelated to age. Microscopically the majority of lesions involved myocardial fibre lysis and replacement fibrosis, although acute infarction was present in some cases. Intramyocardial arterioles in or adjacent to the lesions exhibited occlusive arteriosclerotic changes whereas those elsewhere remained patent. The evidence strongly suggests that the myocardial lesions were ischaemic in origin and related to the distribution of intramyocardial arteriosclerosis. Nodular fibrous plaques and mural thrombi associated with migrating larvae of Strongylus vulgaris were observed in the thoracic aorta of 9.4 per cent of horses. These intimal lesions were often present in the aortic bulb and proximal 10 cm of the thoracic aorta indicating that larval migration in this zone is common. Statistical analysis revealed a highly significant association between the occurrence of proximal aortic S vulgaris lesions and the presence of focal ischaemic lesions in the myocardium. The association was not the result of direct larval damage but appeared to be caused by microembolisation from parasitic lesions in the proximal aorta, producing obstructive arteriosclerotic lesions in myocardial arterioles.

BuddyRoo
Dec. 30, 2007, 01:19 PM
Some great posts thus far.

As another thought....

When you are educated regarding disease and parasites, diagnostics, and treatment, you can choose the path that makes the most sense.

However, many of the "protocols" out there exist because MOST PEOPLE are NOT educated, don't WANT to be educated, and don't WANT to do the diagnostics. They want to do as much as they can on their own as cheaply as they can. In that regard, having a protocol for deworming every X weeks and vaccinating X times a year is safer for the overall population.

At our veterinary clinic, we offered titers in lieu of just following the vaccine protocol. But very few people utilized that option. Why? Because it often required two visits. One to draw the blood, then one to come in and vaccinate as needed. It was easier for people to just vaccinate.

Fecals? Same thing. There's not much of a way to get around a trip to the vet's office for a fecal unless you want to invest in a microscope, slide, fecal cups, and fecasol, know what you're looking for and do them yourself. It's a $10 test. But most folks would rather just deworm.

So...if you're committed to going a little out of your way to become educated, do the diagnostics and testing, and then make your deworming and vaccination choices accordingly, I'm all for it! But if you're not, sticking to the standard protocol is a lot safer for all of us.

Choosing NOT to do the diagnostics AND choosing NOT to vaccinate or deworm puts the rest of us at risk. You're essentially riding the coattails of all the others who ARE vaccinating or deworming and in some cases, putting both your horse and ours at risk.

Much like the measles argument. Why vaccinate? It's gone. Well, if we all discontinue vaccination, methinks it will be back.

As far as the reactions people mention--it's most often the adjuvant that causes a reaction. Ft. Dodge in particular had some problems with serious reactions due to the adjuvant they were using in a WNV vaccine a few years ago. Again, understanding more about the process can be helpful in dispelling myths and keeping our horses/dogs/kids well protected where the risks warrant it.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Dec. 30, 2007, 01:52 PM
His credentials are excellent. He's testified before congress on these matters and has been researching this issue for many years. His education is from Harvard and not Middleham. How much more qualified would you like him to be?
George

Under this administration, at least, if you are a legitimate scientist, your opinions are completely discredited and discounted. I know way too many people at the National Institutes of Health and National Science Foundation, to say nothing of numerous colleagues, not to know this.

My PhD is actually in virology, so I think I know maybe a little bit about this.

Would I vaccinate unnecessarily? No. Would I worm unnecessarily? No. But there's a reason these diseases are being eradicated. Want polio to make a comeback?

And PS not to diss any COTHers with a Harvard education. But the getting into Harvard is difficult. The staying in is not. A joke from a friend who graduated from there: "Wanna know how stupid Caroline Kennedy is? She got C's at Harvard!"

Apparently, 70% of people graduate from Harvard with honors. The average is a high B, not a C or C-.

Katy Watts
Dec. 30, 2007, 02:00 PM
George,
Even crazy, irrational people can have lots of education, before or after, they go crazy.
Testifying before Congress, or even being IN Congress does not mean someone is sane or rational, or honest.
Not all people with degrees in science are GOOD scientists. There is a lot of bad science out there if you know how to spot it. Real science tends to be disspassionate, and does not need to stir up emotional response for impact. Lots of people seek more drama in their lives, and lack the ability to think critically, hence psuedo-science is gaining in popularity.
Katy

grayarabpony
Dec. 30, 2007, 02:04 PM
Oh for God's sake why does anyone even respond to George?!

JHUshoer20
Dec. 30, 2007, 02:09 PM
Under this administration, at least, if you are a legitimate scientist, your opinions are completely discredited and discounted.
Very true, when government money is funding research oftentimes the political strings attached force scientists to come up with results to their liking. This crosses all party lines.

The information provided by Dr Horowitz has made him enemies at the CDC as well as the pharmaceutical cartels who control AMA medicine. These people are owned and operated by the petro-chemical industry.

He is a man who's credentials are as good as they come and is in my opinion above reproach. He's published many books, has videos available as well as his website. Is all available to the public and very enlightening.

For those who will casually dismiss him so be it. Your loss.
George

Albion
Dec. 30, 2007, 02:31 PM
He is a man who's credentials are as good as they come and is in my opinion above reproach. He's published many books, has videos available as well as his website. Is all available to the public and very enlightening.

:confused: Since when does having a Harvard degree qualify someone as 'above reproach'? There are plenty of idiots out there who have Ivy League credentials. His doctorate is in dental surgery - and this qualifies him to speak to virology ... how? I have no idea how Harvard's MPH program stacks up, but I can tell you that in my field, while the Harvard name might make lay people go 'Oooh, aaah, Harvard!', a PhD from my (non-Ivy) school means more in the field. Ivy League is not synonymous with quality. They just have bigger endowments than the rest of us. :winkgrin:

Likewise, publishing does not make one an expert. Who is publishing his books (or articles)? It would appear his books are published by ... his own publishing group! I could publish any sort of crackpot theory I wanted if I owned my own 'press.' There's a Japanese historian who publishes - and gives away FREE! - a book he wrote on why the Nanjing massacre didn't happen. That doesn't make it true just because it's in print and 'available to the public.'

There's a reason prestigious journals and presses have a pretty damn rigorous process of peer review and anonymous readers. If his stuff is so wonderful, why isn't his alma mater publishing it?

deltawave
Dec. 30, 2007, 02:45 PM
His credentials are not above reproach. They are beneath contempt. But I'm one of those evil members of the AMA. :rolleyes:

Stuff makes my blood boil...he's a leech and a predator on the gullible and the disenfranchised. But oh, yeah, it's a free country. Bankroll your own publishing house and you can churn out 50,000 copies of whatever you wish. :(

Ghazzu
Dec. 30, 2007, 02:54 PM
Does anyone know how often aneurysm is connected to parasites? Does this show on necropsy?



In addition to deltawave's reference on cardiac damage, a major concern is damage to the cranial mesenteric artery and its branches, which supply the small intestines. A thrombus in one of these results in ischemic damage/death to the segment of intestine which it supplies.

Yes; I've seen it on necropsy.
Saw it in surgery once, too, as a student.

The surgeon was sufficiently impressed he sent me out for his camera, saying, "You don't see damage like this too often anymore--most people deworm regularly. These will be good teaching slides."

CanadianGolden
Dec. 30, 2007, 02:57 PM
Of possible interest here is a link to a discussion we had a while ago about this on horseshoes.http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2623 I think it good to be not 100% trusting of these things. Not for human or veterinary medicine. There really is a lot to this, check out www.tetrahedron.org
George

Please tell me you didn't attend Hopkins.

pintopiaffe
Dec. 30, 2007, 03:00 PM
As far as the reactions people mention--it's most often the adjuvant that causes a reaction. Ft. Dodge in particular had some problems with serious reactions due to the adjuvant they were using in a WNV vaccine a few years ago. Again, understanding more about the process can be helpful in dispelling myths and keeping our horses/dogs/kids well protected where the risks warrant it.

DEFINITELY. Interestingly, Fort Dodge is the mfg of both Quest and the WNV vax that caused the issue. I avoid them like the plague these days. They may have fixed the issue, but they were completely awful when I contacted them reference the Quest death.

I think that doing anything less than the 'common practice' vax and deworming gets a bad name because of the folks who do none and claim it is in the name of holistic horsekeeping... when in truth it's in the name of laziness or cheapness.

Yes, it saves me money to pull fecals rather than automatically deworm--as these days I pull from 2 or 3 horses, not the whole herd, since I can extrapolate. But there is time and effort put into management that also eables me to chemically deworm less. As cheap as you can get generic Ivomec now, *effort* wise it probably would be justa as 'cheap' to just order a case of it, you know?

But you get the wormy, neglect or borderline neglect cases talking about minimal or no vax and worming... and it really gives the whole thing a bad name. :sigh:

Ghazzu
Dec. 30, 2007, 03:02 PM
His credentials are excellent. He's testified before congress on these matters and has been researching this issue for many years. His education is from Harvard and not Middleham. How much more qualified would you like him to be?
George

The good dentist has an MPH from Hahvahd in, fittingly, " Behavioral Science / Media Health Promotion".

Media Health promotion seems to be what he's all about.

deltawave
Dec. 30, 2007, 03:10 PM
You mean "Behavioral Modification through Media Health Hysteria". :rolleyes: :lol: Obviously he was a brilliant student.

merrygoround
Dec. 30, 2007, 03:47 PM
Of possible interest here is a link to a discussion we had a while ago about this on horseshoes.http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2623 I think it good to be not 100% trusting of these things. Not for human or veterinary medicine. There really is a lot to this, check out www.tetrahedron.org
George


Have any of your ever so informed sources given any thought to the fact that many, many horses, died of colic due to parasites, or lack of vaccinations, or infections until modern dewormers, vaccinations, and antibiotics came along? Ivermectin when it came on the market quieted many of an equine practitioners 'phones. No more, or fewer, frantic 'gas colic' calls. Not to mention those who died of colic caused by parasitic migrations.

deltawave
Dec. 30, 2007, 04:18 PM
Yes, memories are short. We also forget that our average life expectancy was around 50 years less than half a century ago. We forget how people used to die like dogs from heart attacks at a rate of 3 in 10 in the late 20th century, when now 99.8% of them go home in 3 days with a bandaid and a bottle of (evil pharma/petrochemical conspiratorial) pills. We forget horses dying of colic and being terrible hard keepers due to such bad gut damage from parasites. We forget having to have them tube wormed twice a year.

Our blissful amnesia is brought to you by modern medicine. :)

JHUshoer20
Dec. 30, 2007, 04:30 PM
Have any of your ever so informed sources given any thought to the fact that many, many horses, died of colic due to parasites, or lack of vaccinations, or infections until modern dewormers, vaccinations, and antibiotics came along? Ivermectin when it came on the market quieted many of an equine practitioners 'phones. No more, or fewer, frantic 'gas colic' calls. Not to mention those who died of colic caused by parasitic migrations.Nobody denies that modern medicine has done good things, Ivermectin has foundered more than it's share read my post on that. It has wreaked havoc on these animals immune systems. And is most likely a big link into the WLD of the early '90s. It was vets themselves who had it pulled from the market almost immediately in it's injectable form

Vaccinations must be safe. Quality control must be very anal. This is not always the case.

Mercury has no place in any vaccine, nor should it ever be injected into the bloodstream of a young child with an immature immune system. This is an outrage!
George

CanadianGolden
Dec. 30, 2007, 04:34 PM
So, JHUShoer20, my question isn't worthy of an answer?

deltawave
Dec. 30, 2007, 04:41 PM
Ummm, vaccines aren't injected "into the bloodstream". And mercury has been GONE from vaccines for 6 or 7 years, if memory serves. (With not one bit of a drop in cases of diagnosed autism, either) So your outrage is long since obsolete on that score.

If you're going to insist on being "anal", start with precise and factual comments, please.

JHUshoer20
Dec. 30, 2007, 04:46 PM
So, JHUShoer20, my question isn't worthy of an answer?
Sorry missed your question, no never went to Hopkins

JHUshoer20
Dec. 30, 2007, 04:54 PM
Ummm, vaccines aren't injected "into the bloodstream". And mercury has been GONE from vaccines for 6 or 7 years, if memory serves. (With not one bit of a drop in cases of diagnosed autism, either) So your outrage is long since obsolete on that score.

If you're going to insist on being "anal", start with precise and factual comments, please.
So you don't think IM injections get into the blood?:confused:

It was the public outcry that brought attention to that issue precisely because a clear link was established to skyrocketing cases of autism. Might not tickle your ears but is true:yes:
George

deltawave
Dec. 30, 2007, 04:59 PM
Untrue again. Yes, it was public outcry that got the thimerosal removed, but certainly NOT because a clear link was established. Absolutely, categorically UNTRUE. Public outcry won the day with NO data supporting the link. Which is probably why new reported cases of autism did not move and have not moved downwards even a tiny smidgen when the thimerosal was removed. No cause and effect was ever demonstrated, period, and I defy you to show me any scientific literature proving otherwise.

Please note SCIENTIFIC LITERATURE, not hysterical, conspiracy-theorist nonsense.

Whether or not things that are injected IM "get into the blood" is not my point. It is imprecise and incorrect to say things are "injected into the bloodstream" when one is discussing vaccinations. Precision, please.

JHUshoer20
Dec. 30, 2007, 05:00 PM
Yes, memories are short. We also forget that our average life expectancy was around 50 years less than half a century ago. Balderdash, life span hasn't changed since the flood.
We forget how people used to die like dogs from heart attacks at a rate of 3 in 10 in the late 20th century, when now 99.8% of them go home in 3 days with a bandaid and a bottle of (evil pharma/petrochemical conspiratorial) pills. Plenty more get thrown out of the hospital as soon as possible due to poor medical care and lack of a public health service. I doubt it's because of their being better treated though.
We forget horses dying of colic Colic still is and probably always will be the #1 killer of horses. The thing you must ask is how much is due to parasites as compared to impaction, twisting, ulcers from bute rotting their guts, etc etc etc?

deltawave
Dec. 30, 2007, 05:02 PM
Untrue
Untrue
True, true and unrelated. :)

Saying it with feeling doesn't make it so, George.

JHUshoer20
Dec. 30, 2007, 05:03 PM
Untrue again. Yes, it was public outcry that got the thimerosal removed, but certainly NOT because a clear link was established. Absolutely, categorically UNTRUE. Public outcry won the day with NO data supporting the link. Which is probably why new reported cases of autism did not move and have not moved downwards even a tiny smidgen when the thimerosal was removed. No cause and effect was ever demonstrated, period, and I defy you to show me any scientific literature proving otherwise.

I already have.
The fact that you've rejected it out of hand because you don't care for the messenger is not my problem. The information has in fact been provided
George

deltawave
Dec. 30, 2007, 05:04 PM
Citation, PLEASE. The messenger is a whacko and therefore his message is completely without credibility. Again, just because somebody says something with feeling doesn't make it so!

JHUshoer20
Dec. 30, 2007, 05:12 PM
Citation, PLEASE. The messenger is a whacko and therefore his message is completely without credibility. Again, just because somebody says something with feeling doesn't make it so!
Can I quote you on that next time I argue with a BUA zealot?:lol:
George

EqTrainer
Dec. 30, 2007, 05:37 PM
It is a crying shame that this thread has broke down into this.

tma
Dec. 30, 2007, 06:02 PM
I haven't had time to read all of the responses here, but if regular vaccinations + dewormings were a bigger threat to horse health than the diseases and parasite loads they treat/prevent, it is my belief that the last three horses that I've lost would not have lived to the ages of 29 (heart attack), 28 (unknown), and 31+ (stroke). (All three, we had registration on and/or bred ourselves, so thier ages are not a guesstimate).

We have more currently that are at ages 31, 24 and 21 -- all with fairly recent blood chem panels within normal ranges. All three of these we''ve had since birth, so we know history. They include vaccination 2x/year with the Ft. Dodge killed WNV vaccine also, ever since it was first released on a provisional basis...and deworming every 60 days. Granted, when the 31 year old was foaled, we only had the semi-annual tube worming, but he's been on the rotational paste worming program for at least 20 years.

The only reactions we've ever had were (1) injection to penecillin, and (1) to the old injectible Ivermectin (that was later pulled from the market, at least for equine use). Both of those were in the same horse (which we lost due to the stroke at age 31+).

Just my own experience; take it for whatever it's worth (or not! ;)

Personally, I'm not inclined to change my routine at this time.

grayarabpony
Dec. 30, 2007, 06:18 PM
tma, I'm glad you posted. It's good to hear how the owners of some old, healthy horses have cared for them. :yes:

deltawave
Dec. 30, 2007, 06:21 PM
As I mentioned earlier, anecdotes from people who use reasonable, sensible and mainstream prevention programs for years and years (I daresay a LARGE majority of horse owners fall into this category) rarely pipe up with the un-dramatic fact that their horses are doing JUST FINE.

BuddyRoo
Dec. 30, 2007, 08:35 PM
Undramatic fact here: My old guy was vaccinated and dewormed til the ripe old age of 32. My other two girls, 16 and 6 respectively have also faired well in a pro-vaccination/pro-deworming/pro-testing environment.

I will note however, that my mare did get PHF this summer though vaccinated. I wish that there was more money to develop a more current PHF vaccine to cover some of the newer strains. But I will not stop vaccinating for it regardless. ANd I do steer clear of FD products when I can as I've had horses have reactions. Never deadly. Never serious really. But I just choose to steer clear.

Pretty unremarkable over here. ANd I've moved my horses across the country several times, in several environments...and they've always done well. Coincidentally, only one colic in over 25 years of having horses. And that was a case of dehydration.

tma
Dec. 30, 2007, 10:51 PM
A couple of footnotes to my earlier post here. Again, take them for whatever they are worth (or not! LOL)

First, none of the above horses I mentioned above (or any others we own) has ever suffered from colic (knocking HARD on wood!!!!).

In contrast, a good friend of mine had a colt that she came very close to losing at the age of nine months. That was due to a heavy parasite load which led to SEVERE colic.

Two; Keep in mind that no vaccine is ever 100% effective - and that how one uses it plays a part in it's effectiveness as well.

As a matter of fact, we've had a single case of strangles in a horse that had been vaccinated with the intra-nasal vaccine (while in another barn). Both our vet and ourselves were under the belief at the time that that vaccine needed boostering annually. The horse was at the six-month mark from vaccination when the strangles outbreak in the barn began.

Ours was the very last horse in that barn to come down with strangles-a full two months after the first case showed up, and eight months post-vaccination.

I honestly believe that the case of strangles was milder overall in this horse because the horse HAD been vaccinated.

Granted, we also learned from that that we need to booster 2x/year (also confirmed directly with the manufacturer of the vaccine).

JHUshoer20
Dec. 30, 2007, 11:48 PM
As a matter of fact, we've had a single case of strangles in a horse that had been vaccinated with the intra-nasal vaccine (while in another barn). Both our vet and ourselves were under the belief at the time that that vaccine needed boostering annually. The horse was at the six-month mark from vaccination when the strangles outbreak in the barn began.

Ours was the very last horse in that barn to come down with strangles-a full two months after the first case showed up, and eight months post-vaccination.
Best thing to do for Strangles is nothing. Quarantine the horse as best you can but do no antibiotics. Let it run it's course and the animal will have an immunity. Is primarily a young horse problem not unlike chicken pox or mumps etc in kids.

The immunity the animal develops will stay with him for most of his life. Stranglevac just like the west nile and PHV vaccines has gotten a reputation for being innefective as well.

OTOH if you try to treat Strangles with penicillin and so forth, you'll in all likelihood cause him to stay sick much longer than necessary as well as preventing him from getting an immunity so you'll probably have to deal with it all over again year after year.
George

tma
Dec. 31, 2007, 08:13 AM
Best thing to do for Strangles is nothing. Quarantine the horse as best you can but do no antibiotics. Let it run it's course and the animal will have an immunity. Is primarily a young horse problem not unlike chicken pox or mumps etc in kids.

The immunity the animal develops will stay with him for most of his life. Stranglevac just like the west nile and PHV vaccines has gotten a reputation for being innefective as well.

OTOH if you try to treat Strangles with penicillin and so forth, you'll in all likelihood cause him to stay sick much longer than necessary as well as preventing him from getting an immunity so you'll probably have to deal with it all over again year after year.
George



I'm sorry if I left you with the impression that we had NO experience with strangles, in my earlier post.

We've dealt with MANY cases in the past. Just not with our own horses on our vaccination program (other than the one case mentioned previously - intended to be used to demonstrate our experience about effectiveness and useage).

You are right when you say that the strangles vaccines may have a less effective level than some other vaccines. The injectible is in the 50% effective range, while the intra-nasal is roughly the 85% range. No vaccine is 100% effective. There will always be a few that get the disease regardless.

(And there are always some who may blame the vaccine on those occasions where the animal is vaccinated AFTER exposure to the disease (often heard of with strangles, for example - when many people vaccinate after an outbreak has been confirmed, not realizing that the horse may already have been exposed and be in the incubation stage...at which point the vaccine cannot keep the horse from coming down with it.)

One other point: a vaccine is not "instant" protection either...it takes time to build imunity and if the horse is exposed before that immunity is built up, the horse can still contract the disease, through no fault of the vaccine.

With the strangles cases with which we have had direct experience, we've successfully kept the outbreak to the initial case...with no other horses affected.

Horses can get strangles more than once, and many remain shedders of the bacteria for quite some time after infection. Although as you indicated, many also maintain an immunity for an extended time after.

In regard to WNV (Ft Dodge killed version, which is what we use); it is generally recommended that a horse be boostered 2x/year after the proper, inital series.

caballus
Dec. 31, 2007, 08:45 AM
Just from personal experience: Have had 4 dogs in the last 35 years:

Saint BernardX weighing 140#: Did contract Heartworm when 2 years old, was treated then lived to be 13 years old. Vaccinations rec'd: Rabies. No others, not even puppy shots. (back in the day when there were signs all over saying "Free puppies" and these free puppies were "backyard" puppies.) (avg. life span for Giant Breed dog 6 - 8 years)

NewfoundlandX weighing 140#: Vaccines rec'd - puppy shots, one round. Rabies. Died at 14 years old. (avg. life span for Giant Breed dog 6 - 8 years old)

Golden Retriever X weighing 75#: No vaccines except Rabies until she was 16 years old when she developed a Haematoma in her ear and needed surgery. Vet (my boss) would not operate unless the dog has full vaccines. CBC showed her blood to be "that of a puppy" so the Vet said he guessed we were doing *something* right. Dog had her surgery. She lived to be 20 years old. (Avg. life span for Large Breed Dog 8 - 10 years old.)

Chow/KeeshoundX weighing in at 95#: This dog was a rescue when he was 4 years old. Had full vaccine regiment plus wormings, and Rabies. Developed Cancer and died at 7 years old. (Avg. life span for Large Breed Dog 8 - 10 years). This is also THE ONLY dog we've ever had who constantly had "Hot Spots" and other various ailments.

Just for interest - we don't feed regular Dog food, either. All dogs (and cats) get mostly human foods (dinner leftovers). I also don't use chemical flea sprays or dips. Any dog that I used flea spray or dip on got grundgy coat and skin irritations. Our Goldie actually went totally paralyzed in her hind end after using that "spot on" flea stuff. She was paralyzed for 3 days. Then recovered and was fine. Vet said was a "reaction" to the chemicals in the flea stuff.

Our cats live to be 16 years old ++ also. No vaccines. No Rabies. No chemical flea stuff.

Present Dogs: 8 year old Rat Terrier. I *assume* she was vaccinated as she came from a local zoo. 6 month old SATO. She had her full vaccine regime prior to entering the country.

caballus
Dec. 31, 2007, 08:55 AM
Oh, meant to put down personal exp. with human vaccines:

Older son: red, painful swellings at sight of injections. Would spike high fever and be miserable for 3 days following.

Younger son: Extreme reaction to MMR needing medical intervention. High fever, restricted airway, hot red swelling at injection site, convulsions.

Daughters both "OK" from vaccines. No visible immediate reactions. One daughter now has very strange tumors in hip (aneurysmal); other daughter has extreme reactions to "institutional foods" and other chemicalized "stuff" (endotoxicity).

One Grandson: anph. shock and seizures following Flu shot last year at 2 years. old.
Another Grandson: contracted Whooping cough after vaccine for Whooping cough at 3 months old.
Another Grandson: painful, hot, swellings and high fever following DPT vaccines.

Have 2 family friends whose children were "fine" as infants but shortly after receiving vaccines one became "retarded" in his growth and development and now is DXd as autistic; the other cannot be Dx'd but has all symptoms of CP except Drs. say its not CP. They don't know what it is. She is now 8 or 10 years old and cannot walk, cannot balance herself, can't tie her own shoes. etc. etc.

So those are my own personal experiences with vaccines from animal AND human perspective.

JHUshoer20
Dec. 31, 2007, 08:57 AM
Hey Gwen,
Let me ask you this, I know rabies shots are required by law but to my understanding can't a dog or cat still get rabies if their bitten by a rabid animal?
George

caballus
Dec. 31, 2007, 09:15 AM
Hi George ... think the answer to that is "it depends". *GRIN* (As usual in the animal world). I've heard and read about dogs or cats getting rabies even though vaccinated. I think the general pharmaceutical consensus is 90 - 95% of vaccinated animals will NOT be affected if bitten. But there's that 10 or 5% that do ...

JHUshoer20
Dec. 31, 2007, 09:20 AM
Hi George ... think the answer to that is "it depends". *GRIN* (As usual in the animal world). I've heard and read about dogs or cats getting rabies even though vaccinated. I think the general pharmaceutical consensus is 90 - 95% of vaccinated animals will NOT be affected if bitten. But there's that 10 or 5% that do ...
Ok, then if not vaccinated as wild animals aren't is this always transmitted by infected saliva? Or is it also viral?

And can it be treated and cured, or is it still certain euthanasia/death?

Just wondering
George

caballus
Dec. 31, 2007, 09:34 AM
George .. your questions might be better directed towards someone who has more expertise in the matter than I do! Good questions, tho, and I will do some reading on it just for my own benefit. If you run across the answers in your searching, let us know!

caballus
Dec. 31, 2007, 09:39 AM
BTW, George ... your link to Dr. Horowitz' site looks like it might be some interesting reading.

Are you familiar with http://www.shirleyswellnesscafe.com?

deltawave
Dec. 31, 2007, 09:45 AM
always transmitted by infected saliva? Or is it also viral?


Ummm, BOTH. Or I'm not understanding the question at all. ??? Isn't the answer on Horowitz's page, or is there not a government conspiracy about rabies yet? :lol: :p

Rabies is a viral disease transmitted (usually) by the saliva of an infectious/infected animal. There is ONE reported case of survival in a human with INTENSIVE and extremely vigorous care and antiviral therapy. Such would not be even remotely practical in animals what with prolonged induced coma, etc., therefore the disease is still considered 100% fatal.

equinelaw
Dec. 31, 2007, 09:49 AM
Um. . how would one safely treat a rabid animal? I don't want to try that at home:no:

JHUshoer20
Dec. 31, 2007, 09:55 AM
George .. your questions might be better directed towards someone who has more expertise in the matter than I do! Good questions, tho, and I will do some reading on it just for my own benefit. If you run across the answers in your searching, let us know!
Ok, here's I think just about anything you might want to know about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabies

George

JHUshoer20
Dec. 31, 2007, 10:00 AM
BTW, George ... your link to Dr. Horowitz' site looks like it might be some interesting reading.

Are you familiar with http://www.shirleyswellnesscafe.com?

No, hadn't heard of that but it looks pretty cool. Another thing you should check out is a book called Natural Cures They Don't Want You To Know About, by Dennis Trudeau. I have it here is interesting stuff.
George

Blu
Dec. 31, 2007, 10:16 AM
Um. . how would one safely treat a rabid animal? I don't want to try that at home:no:


You don't. Rabies is for life, and the only way to diagnose is to get a brain tissue sample. Which is done post mortem. If a questionable rabies case involves contact with a human via bite etc a test is done for confirmation which then would confirm the human exposure. To the best of my knowledge this is how its done (or how weve historically done it around these here parts)

I am vaccinated for rabies myself as well as all my pets.

And to respond to someone a few pages ago... for clarification distemper parvo vaccines are given every 3 weeks starting at 6-8 weeks until 16 wks of age... not every 6 months until adulthood (that would be only 2x??).

And if youre foolish enough to think that parvo is not a problem anymore, this year weve treated about 15 or so parvo cases in pups (that does not include the ones weve had to euthanise due to cost of treatment or grave prognosis). All unvaccinated. And thats way too many. Parvovirus is also a very hardy virus and persists in the environment everywhere.

caballus
Dec. 31, 2007, 10:17 AM
No, hadn't heard of that but it looks pretty cool. Another thing you should check out is a book called Natural Cures They Don't Want You To Know About, by Dennis Trudeau. I have it here is interesting stuff.
George Ohhhhhhh, ... I got that a couple of months ago. Good reading. Certainly alot of "thought material". :)

Ghazzu
Dec. 31, 2007, 10:49 AM
Um. . how would one safely treat a rabid animal?

Intracranial injection of a bolus of lead.

Blu
Dec. 31, 2007, 10:51 AM
;) thanks Ghazzu!

deltawave
Dec. 31, 2007, 11:26 AM
Intracranial injection of a bolus of lead.

Yes, while standing WELL BACK. The virus can also reportedly be transmitted via aerosolized brain particles. :eek:

It is a FATAL ILLNESS, no cure, no treatment, no hope, unless you are a young, healthy human being in an academic medical center with fearless doctors willing to try....and then the mortality rate is 99.99999999999999%.

grayarabpony
Dec. 31, 2007, 11:46 AM
I have a Jack Russell who has always had all of her shots, and she's still going at 19 years 5 months. My parents had 2 cats that lived to be 20 and 21. They all got vaccinations too. Distemper, feline and canine, is still all around. I don't know how many stories I've heard about people whose unspayed bitches got away (usually dug out from under their pens) the pups weren't vaccinated and they all died. (A waste all around.)

There may be dangers in over-vaccinating, which is why I asked if there were studies not done by companies that produce vaccines.

equinelaw
Dec. 31, 2007, 12:06 PM
I was just sort of imagining what would promt such a question. Even Ole Yeller wasn't much fun one the rabies got him:)

Here Coju. . . take your medicine. . . nice doggy NICE doggy:eek::o:mad:

Just the shots for getting nipped by a stray kitten cost my frined $14K. I think I'd rather randomly risk anything a vaccine could do to avoid meeting a rabid animal or having to deal with one--for example, a large 1,200 lb one?

EqTrainer
Dec. 31, 2007, 02:05 PM
Rabies is, in most cases, a must have vaccination..

it creeps me out a little to not give it to the IR horses, but they are mostly over 10 and had it annually for many years in a row. I can only hope they have immunity.

caballus
Dec. 31, 2007, 03:22 PM
Sooooooo, what do y'all feel about nosodes in place of vaccinations?

Ghazzu
Dec. 31, 2007, 03:38 PM
Sooooooo, what do y'all feel about nosodes in place of vaccinations?


Only for diseases I wouldn't mind if I caught.

JumpRoo
Dec. 31, 2007, 03:45 PM
We had a pony in our barn that got potomic and west nile at the same time, because the vet did it without my trainers permission and foundered almost 10 minutes after. The family had just purchased the pony and she had to be rushed to New Bolton. Last year we were at a horseshow and because of these same two shots given together, two horses died on the property while we were there. The pony is okay now but she almost died. You really need to find a knowledgable vet on this matter and create a program where shots are given stragically throughout the year.

caffeinated
Dec. 31, 2007, 04:31 PM
erm...

Just because someone mentioned Kevin Trudeau's "Natural cures 'they' don't want you to know about"...

http://dir.salon.com/story/books/feature/2005/07/29/trudeau/index.html

http://skepdic.com/trudeau.html

Washington post on Kevin Trudeau (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/22/AR2005102201272.html)

http://www.infomercialwatch.org/tran/trudeau.shtml

Seven Warning Signs of Bogus Science (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/signs.html)

As for Dr. Horowitz and tetrahedron- kind of hard to take someone with regular appearances on Coast to Coast all that seriously.

In any case, people and horses are both living longer now than they used to, thanks to modern medicine. Even just a few decades ago when I started riding, horses in their late teens were considered "old" by most people I knew. Now it's not unusual to be riding and using horses into their twenties.

If there's REAL science indicating that vaccinating and de-worming horses causes damage greater than the damage caused by parasites and disease, I'd love to see it. But conspiracy theorist websites don't cut it, as far as I'm concerned.

ToTheNines
Dec. 31, 2007, 04:46 PM
Lots of good thoughts here. But it does seem like there are enough valid incidents of vaccinations-gone-wrong to justify intelligent thought and open minds on the OP's original question.

Just because the statistics support routine vaccinations, doesn't mean I want to be the one-in-a-thousand case where something goes wrong.

My horse has begun the "headshaking syndrome" after a flu/rhino (the only shot he got that day). After considerable research, I am convinced the vaccination somehow affected his trigeminal nerve. There is considerable support that the EHV virus can reside in the trigeminal nerve, and can be stirred up by a vaccination. From now on, I will be vaccinating on the basis of titers.

Suffice it to say, I am no longer a "routine" vaccinator, and every vaccination will be given due consideration for the particular type of vaccination (including its adjuvants) and the particular horse.

molliwog
Dec. 31, 2007, 05:03 PM
Daughters both "OK" from vaccines. No visible immediate reactions. One daughter now has very strange tumors in hip (aneurysmal); other daughter has extreme reactions to "institutional foods" and other chemicalized "stuff" (endotoxicity).



So those are my own personal experiences with vaccines from animal AND human perspective.

Caballus, the last time I checked, "endotoxicity" would have something to do with a response to lipopolysaccharides found in the cell walls of gram negative bacteria. How do reactions to "institutional foods and chemicalized stuff fall into this category? Not trying to be rude, just trying to figure out what you are saying.

deltawave
Dec. 31, 2007, 05:04 PM
NOBODY wants to be the "one in a thousand" case. If the risk of a vaccination is greater than the risk of getting the disease, I'd run the opposite way from the vaccination. I daresay the risk is a lot less than "one in a thousand" for vaccines and founder, etc. You just don't HEAR about the other 99,999 animals who did just fine after their shots.

RAyers
Dec. 31, 2007, 05:22 PM
Intracranial injection of a bolus of lead.

But doesn't that result in high speed lead poisoning?

Reed

MistyBlue
Dec. 31, 2007, 05:35 PM
Isn't Kevin Trudeau the Infomercial dude? The one making millions by fleecing rubes? *Anyone* marketing things on infomercials is the only one getting "cured" and that's being cured from being middle class income. :winkgrin:

equinelaw
Dec. 31, 2007, 08:47 PM
No, thats not true. He lets you buy the book and a few extra books and all you have to do is pay for shipping. He isn't even very good at seperating us form our $$$$$. Free 30 day trial and you keep all the other books! I just assume all those petro-chemical drug compamines who don't want you to know stuff are too lazy to just stay up all night and order all the copies:)

Besides, he has moved on to what credit card agencies dont want you to know:):):) I am a night owl. I know my informercails!

JSwan
Dec. 31, 2007, 08:55 PM
This thread reminds me of that Seinfeld episode where George gets "treated" by some wacko and ends up turning purple.

But Jerry got some great comedic material out of the treatment plan.

Raise your hand if you've been bitten by a feral kitten and had to go to the ER for the rabies rigamarole.

me me oh pick me.

Wading through a room full of walking wounded, and having to say to the triage nurse loudly, several times, I GOT BITTEN BY A KITTEN. Then being mortified that they moved you to the head of the line.

Like another poster, the rescue I work with has an awful problem with parvo. We lose puppies to it constantly, and it is absolutely heartbreaking. I realize that there is a chance that some vaccines may have side effects - but for God's sake. The diseases are much much worse.

Get your animals vaccinated. :cry:

deltawave
Dec. 31, 2007, 09:27 PM
caffeinated, you have made my day, thanks for the laugh. (if I didn't laugh, I would cry...someone tried to leave a copy of Trudeau's book in our waiting room) :dead:


Get an electromagnetic chaos eliminator. Do some "bioenergetic synchronization." Give yourself some enemas, and then give yourself some more enemas. Wear white, for positive energy. Don't use a microwave or an electric tumble dryer or fluorescent lights or artificial sweeteners; don't dry-clean your clothes or use swimming pools or eat pork. Don't use deodorant (causes cancer) or nonstick cookware (causes cancer) or watch the news (stress alters your body's pH, which can make you get cancer). Remove the metal fillings from your mouth, and you're all set!

Cool! :cool:

Sabine
Jan. 1, 2008, 12:49 AM
thanks for all your informative replies. I am not asking about small animals- as I have a firm opinion about that- just like with kids- 2 years- and then you're done except for Rabies.
With horses its different because there are extreme variations in environment, climate and usage that affect the level of risk and exposure.
I live in SoCal in a dry- desertlike climate- in a large EQ center- that is feeding 3 times daily, mucking 2 times daily and has no grass pastures or the like (we don't have that in this part of the country). Thus we don't deal with large populations of larvae either. Even Mosquitos are limited- because of the extreme draught we are in.
I have decided to go the titre route and check before administering vaccs.
I have seen an increasing amount of weird neuro issues including Cushings and unexplained founder and believe that overall wellness of the horse has also to do with appropriate vac-schedules (I am not saying never vaccinate- but after a certain age - maybe 3 or 4- do titres.) Same applies to worming. I rather the pay the bit extra $$ for the tests- then have a HUGE vet bill- because something goes seriously wrong- or worth yet- have a horse that never really achieved its potential because of overall lack of wellness....

Vaccinations are poison. We are putting it into their bodies. We have to be responsible about that and know that we are doing the right thing- when doing so.

On a final note- I have had great success feeding Immusyn as an immune system booster- apart from good regular workouts, and great basic feeds.

JHUshoer20
Jan. 1, 2008, 12:52 AM
Sounds good Sabine,

Be sure and have the water checked from time to time too.

George

Auventera Two
Jan. 1, 2008, 01:46 AM
I only have one tidbit of anecdotal information to offer. My metabolically foundered horse was doing GREAT until I vaccinated her with a 3 way. It was tetanus, and 2 others I can't remember. She was very very sore in the feet for three days after that. That was my first experience with a vaccine reaction. My vet had told me it was best not to vaccinate her, being that she's older, and foundered. Apparently foundered horses can react funny.

Kementari
Jan. 1, 2008, 01:50 AM
We had a pony in our barn that got potomic and west nile at the same time, because the vet did it without my trainers permission and foundered almost 10 minutes after. The family had just purchased the pony and she had to be rushed to New Bolton. Last year we were at a horseshow and because of these same two shots given together, two horses died on the property while we were there. The pony is okay now but she almost died. You really need to find a knowledgable vet on this matter and create a program where shots are given stragically throughout the year.

I have two horses who have both had PHF and WNV vaccs at the same time ever since the WNV vaccine became available. Neither is dead, foundered, or in any other way the worse for the wear.

By the way, my TB who is coming 22 has been vaccinated regularly since he was 9, at least (that's when I bought him, so when I can account for for certain). He's gotten EWT, Flu, Rhino, PHF, and Rabies at LEAST once a year (more frequently depending on incidence of disease in the area/potential for exposure) for those 13 years, and WNV once or twice yearly since it came out. He is happy and healthy. (Same for my coming 5 y/o, who was out of an unvaccinated mare so has been vaccinated regularly with all those things since she was 3 months old (well, we didn't do WNV till she was 6 mos, as the vet wasn't sure of it's safety for very young foals), and is also happy and healthy.) :yes:

I would think that a vaccine causing laminitis within ten minutes would be HIGHLY unlikely (I'd go so far as to say that causing FOUNDER would be pretty much impossible). Most inflammatory processes simply take longer than that to be noticeable. The only thing I'd be worried about in that short a frame is anaphylaxis - which is very rare. Ghazzu, correct me if I'm wrong...

I've always wondered how much of this crap people blame on vaccines is just because we give vaccines at times of the year (spring and fall) when the environment is changing, and so stuff like colic and founder is simply more prevalent. It's easy to blame the vaccine. When the WNV vacc came out, people were blaming it for EVERYTHING - I heard it was making horses' hair fall out, causing weakness in tendons/ligaments leading to injury, rendering dewormers ineffective, making horses go blind, and funding terrorism. :eek: Well, OK, maybe not that last one. ;) But some people were foaming at the mouth about it so much I'd not have been surprised! Ya know what? $hit happens. It's not necessarily anyone/thing's FAULT, and just because horses tend to founder in the spring (new grass, stress from upping workload, and often feed changes as said workload is upped) and colic in the fall (drinking less and eating drier foodstuffs as it gets colder...) does NOT mean we should be blaming these things on the vaccines that we also happen to give at those times of year. If anything, the "Blame the Vaccine" crowd is being MORE irresponsible, by not considering other horsekeeping practices that may have led to the injury or illness in question. :no:

JHUshoer20
Jan. 1, 2008, 02:03 AM
I only have one tidbit of anecdotal information to offer. My metabolically foundered horse was doing GREAT until I vaccinated her with a 3 way. It was tetanus, and 2 others I can't remember. She was very very sore in the feet for three days after that. That was my first experience with a vaccine reaction. My vet had told me it was best not to vaccinate her, being that she's older, and foundered. Apparently foundered horses can react funny.
Encephalomyelitis and Equine influenza.

Also once saw a horse get a huge shot abscess on the neck big as a football from being vaccinated with stranglevac while already infected with strangles.
George

Simkie
Jan. 1, 2008, 02:05 AM
Encephalomyelitis and Equine influenza.

A three way in my neck of the woods is Eastern, Western and Tetanus. No flu.


Also once saw a horse get a huge shot abscess on the neck big as a football from being vaccinated with stranglevac while already infected with strangles.

I saw something similar when some idiot took the intra-nasal strangles vax and gave it IM. Are you sure that's not what happened with your example?

Kementari
Jan. 1, 2008, 02:11 AM
Encephalomyelitis and Equine influenza.

Also once saw a horse get a huge shot abscess on the neck big as a football from being vaccinated with stranglevac while already infected with strangles.
George

Actually, if it was a THREE-way, it was probably EEE/WEE/Tet. I'm sure some company somewhere makes a three-way with tetanus that's something different, but I've not seen it...

I'm NOT anti-vaccine, but I don't do strangles, because even with the intra-nasal one I feel the risks outweigh the benefit. If strangles was common in my area, or I had a horse who I (or my vet!) felt was at risk from it, then I'd do it. I'd also do it if I had an otherwise excellent barn that required it, but I'd not be thrilled about it... ;)

JHUshoer20
Jan. 1, 2008, 03:04 AM
I saw something similar when some idiot took the intra-nasal strangles vax and gave it IM. Are you sure that's not what happened with your example? Was back in the 80s. I don't think they had intra-nasal back then but I really don't know
George

deltawave
Jan. 1, 2008, 10:49 AM
Wanna know something TRULY ASTONISHING?

I gave my whole herd (of 4) :) a flu/rhino booster last week, even the mare that's recovering from EPM. Two are traveling, the weather's changeable, might go to some shows this winter...it's my routine anyhow, just a bit later than usual this year.

This is the amazing part...you will NOT believe this...

They are all doing absolutely FINE.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

AZ Native
Jan. 1, 2008, 11:20 AM
George,
Even crazy, irrational people can have lots of education, before or after, they go crazy.
Testifying before Congress, or even being IN Congress does not mean someone is sane or rational, or honest.
Not all people with degrees in science are GOOD scientists. There is a lot of bad science out there if you know how to spot it. Real science tends to be disspassionate, and does not need to stir up emotional response for impact. Lots of people seek more drama in their lives, and lack the ability to think critically, hence psuedo-science is gaining in popularity.
Katy

Katy,
My husband and I love you !!!! GREAT POST !!!!!!!!!

Ghazzu
Jan. 1, 2008, 11:44 AM
Encephalomyelitis and Equine influenza.

Also once saw a horse get a huge shot abscess on the neck big as a football from being vaccinated with stranglevac while already infected with strangles.
George

I've seen ugly reactions to IM strangles in horse who weren't already infected.

One of the reasons I don't recommend it.

Sarah Ralston
Jan. 1, 2008, 12:02 PM
Which is why the IM strangles vaccine is not usually recommended anymore and I was taught way back in 1980's that it should never be used in infected horses!! The Intranasal works well and is much safer, especially IF you follow tthe instructions...which apparently often is not done....


I've seen ugly reactions to IM strangles in horse who weren't already infected.

One of the reasons I don't recommend it.

Lookout
Jan. 1, 2008, 12:56 PM
caffeinated, you have made my day, thanks for the laugh. (if I didn't laugh, I would cry...someone tried to leave a copy of Trudeau's book in our waiting room) :dead:

BWAHAHA! Thanks for the laugh! I guess they must have heard you were an inconoclast! :p

sid
Jan. 1, 2008, 12:57 PM
My oldest horse lived until his mid 40's and was vaccinated regularly. My next oldest was 31 and died of natural causes, not from vaccinations. I have a host of horses from young to geriatric. Until someone can prove vaccinations shorten a horses life --which would fly in the face of my 20 some years caring for horses -- I will still consider having my horses vaccinated my obligation to them. IM strangles is the exception for the reasons Ghazzu pointed out.

If you've ever seen a horse succumb to tetanus or Type B botulism for lack of vaccinations(I have) you'll thank your stars they ARE available, and for a pittance compared to the cost of trying to save them.

Lookout
Jan. 1, 2008, 12:57 PM
I gave my whole herd (of 4) :) a flu/rhino booster last week, even the mare that's recovering from EPM. Two are traveling, the weather's changeable, might go to some shows this winter...it's my routine anyhow, just a bit later than usual this year.


So you're in the habit of disregarding warnings and directions in vaccine packages?

And why is it that the time frame for reactions is shorter than the supposed length of the duration of efficacy?

deltawave
Jan. 1, 2008, 01:03 PM
Lookout, will you PLEASE get over the iconoclast thing? Jeez. Have a happy new year and please can you get out of my face?? Live and let live, will ya? I don't tell you how to do your thing, please return the favor. :rolleyes:

meredithbarlow
Jan. 1, 2008, 01:12 PM
While I really don't want to get into this. I will say this.

Not all vaccines are created equally! WHO made them plays a large factor. I've never had (knock on wood) a single issue with any vaccines EXCEPT the ONE time my equine vet used fort dodge rabies (lesson learnt on all our parts) my horse had a swollen pectoral muscle for 2 MONTHS. That was with me cold hosing it daily, and giving him bute. A

And my cat got cancer from a fort dodge vaccine. No I'm not making this up... fort dodge paid for his surgery to amputate his leg. turns out while all vaccines -in cats- pose the risk of vaccine associated sarcomas VAS, fort dodge vaccines have a MUCH higher incidence rate. My small animal clinic (after another incident with fort dodge products) now refuses to use any of their products.

Now... am I anti-vaccines because of my cat now being three legged? Nope, I still vaccinate my other cats, dogs, and horses- just not him since he is at a higher risk to have problems (and lacks the limb required for a rabies vaccine ;) ) Risk vs benefit.

Lookout
Jan. 1, 2008, 01:30 PM
If there's REAL science indicating that vaccinating and de-worming horses causes damage greater than the damage caused by parasites and disease, I'd love to see it. But conspiracy theorist websites don't cut it, as far as I'm concerned.

Why is it that people require science to dispel their beliefs, but not to form them?

Thomas_1
Jan. 1, 2008, 01:30 PM
-organic wormers
-required vaccinations vs. commonly assumed necessary vaccinations
-any research in regards to cushings and over vaccinations
-validity of titres to proove that sufficient antibodies are present to protect the horse.
Thank you all in advance for contributing.

I won't over-vaccinate or over-worm. But I won't use homeopathic stuff because it doesn't work. Our dogs have titre blood counts for immunity for distemper and parvo-virus and none have needed vaccinations much past 3 years ever. But they do get vaccinated for leptospirosis because that's a different matter.

With regard to horses I follow the best practice.

I can't think what vaccinations need to be given every 3 months at all. But we don't need the same as you. Indeed all we have is Tetanus and ordinarily every 2 or 3 years. Equine flu annually. Here the best practice is always to give separate vaccines to reduce the risk of contraindication. Some folks do still give multi-vaccine and its cheaper that way, but that tends to be uncommon.

We don't have a strangles vaccine in the UK. The American one isn't licenced over here because it doesn't pass our tests on efficacy. We used to have a vaccine which was more efficient and had to be administered every 6 months. But the efficiency only lasted for 3 years and the drug was withdrawn.

I worm according to faecal sampling and then season for tapeworm. Again daily wormer isn't licenced over here because of the unacceptably high risk of wormer tolerance

I will say that I personally know of a horse that died of tetanus and whose owner had inflicted unfortunate beliefs on it and with no cliniical evidence of efficacy gave it homeopathic stuff which was supposed to protect it.

Likewise I have read a couple of clinical studies on herbal worming treatments which basically rules them out as being ineffective.

When my own horse had cushings (died 3 years ago) I was advised (and read a paper) not to have his system shocked with such as 'over-vaccination'. In his case I just dropped the equine flu vaccine totally because he wasn't leaving the premises anyway.


Does anyone know how often aneurysm is connected to parasites? Does this show on necropsy?
. I'm old enough to remember when it was much more common place and yes it does indeed show up.

Lookout
Jan. 1, 2008, 01:32 PM
Lookout, will you PLEASE get over the iconoclast thing? Jeez. Have a happy new year and please can you get out of my face?? Live and let live, will ya? I don't tell you how to do your thing, please return the favor. :rolleyes:

Wha???? I appreciated that great story you told.
So, which parts of his book didn't you agree with, after you read it?

caffeinated
Jan. 1, 2008, 01:35 PM
The idea that you can alter the pH of your body, for one. Not only is it impossible, but if you actually succeeded, it would probably kill you.

;)

Frankly, most of my beliefs are informed by real science. From my religious beliefs to my social ones, to my thoughts on immunization.

Why do so many people refuse to look at the real data and listen to whackjob pseudoscientists instead?

Thomas_1
Jan. 1, 2008, 01:40 PM
Intracranial injection of a bolus of lead. Aren't there contraindications with that treatment?

deltawave
Jan. 1, 2008, 01:47 PM
I have plenty to read without wasting my time reading the work of convicted felons, conspiracy theorists and nut-jobs. Present company excepted on the latter score, haven't figured out the "ignore" feature yet. :D

JHUshoer20
Jan. 1, 2008, 02:02 PM
I have plenty to read without wasting my time reading the work of convicted felons, conspiracy theorists and nut-jobs. Present company excepted on the latter score, haven't figured out the "ignore" feature yet. :D
Hey Delta,
What can I say, some of us are anti-shoe, some of us are anti-drug.

Takes all types to make a world.

Have a good new year:D

George

deltawave
Jan. 1, 2008, 02:05 PM
More power to you. Hope you never need 'em. :)

Ghazzu
Jan. 1, 2008, 02:06 PM
Aren't there contraindications with that treatment?

Well, it does require a specialized administration device utilized by a trained technician...and it is a single dose treatment, when administered properly.

Lookout
Jan. 1, 2008, 02:10 PM
I have plenty to read without wasting my time reading the work of ...
Don't let that stop you from having an opinion on it!

Thomas_1
Jan. 1, 2008, 02:12 PM
Well, it does require a specialized administration device utilized by a trained technician...and it is a single dose treatment, when administered properly. Thanks for that explanation. Most helpful. :yes:

I'm sure though that this is something that most owners could manage for themselves

I got a very nice boxed presentation cleaning kit for one of those special devices for Christmas. And practiced administering treatment to pheasants. I'm sure it can't be that specialist ;)

deltawave
Jan. 1, 2008, 02:13 PM
I have no opinion on the book itself, but I have read PLENTY about the author that makes me NOT want to. Have you done your homework on this author? Like what you hear? :lol: You seem to have plenty of opinions, too, and I daresay you feel as though you're entitled to them JUST like I am with mine, no?

Lookout
Jan. 1, 2008, 02:18 PM
I have no opinion on the book itself, but I have read PLENTY about the author that makes me NOT want to. Have you done your homework on this author? Like what you hear? :lol: You seem to have plenty of opinions, too, and I daresay you feel as though you're entitled to them JUST like I am with mine, no?

I never rely on hearsay. All of my opinions are based on my direct experience, not on what someone else said,thinks, etc. If I'm not directly familiar with someone/something, I don't loudly espouse an opinion on it.

MistyBlue
Jan. 1, 2008, 02:21 PM
Seriously...people believe the Kevin Trudeau World Of Make Believe/Make Me Rich? :lol: :lol: :lol:
The FDC threw his arse off the airwaves for false advertising when he was selling his "cures." He got a $2 mil fine for that one. So in true huckster style...he wrote his "cures" in books instead...which is protected by the First Ammendment.
Here's a bit from one of his books:

As a member of this secret society I have sat in private meetings with the heads of state from countries around the world. I have attended secret international business meetings where business leaders, politicians, and media moguls coerce together to create the new world order with global control over individual people everywhere. I have been shown and have seen with my own eyes secret government and corporate documents. I have heard with my own ears how BigPharma, the food industry, and the oil industry are working together with governments and media outlets around the world. I have been in over sixty countries, yet there are no stamps of evidence in any of my passports. I have been to Area 51 in Nevada. (This top secret military installation is still denied to exist by the U.S. government.) This is where much of our technology has been developed. Area 51 houses most extraterrestrial artifacts, including a working spacecraft and dead alien bodies. I've seen these things with my own two eyes. As a member of this secret society I was used in covert operations around the world.
Yeah...okay. He's probably getting his "cures" for cancer, diabetes, fat, etc from the aliens he's SEEN WITH HIS OWN TWO EYES. :D Ya know...from being in a secret society. sshhh...it's secret. ;) But he'll tell anyone who buys his books about the uber-secret society, yes he will!
He's a star on the Better Business Bureau for complaints along with Consumer Reports, Consumer Affairs and The Rip Off Report.
People honestly believe anything he writes? If you want to throw your money into infomercials...may I suggest Ron Popeil? His "set it and forget it" rotisserie grill actually works just as great in person as it does on his infomercials. :yes:
But you can all bet your booties that the cure for cancer will not be found on late night infomercials by some ass-hat in a $4k suit.
This isn't hearsay...it's a matter of proven public record. ;)

tma
Jan. 1, 2008, 02:22 PM
we don't deal with large populations of larvae either. Even Mosquitos are limited- because of the extreme draught we are in.

I too, am in So Calif.

Although we don't have the mosquito population that other parts of the country do, unfortunately, studies show that the TYPES we DO have are especially well equipped to carry WNV.

That was a factor in making portions of So Calif one of the "hot beds" of cases of WNV early on - before large numbers of people began vaccinating thier horses.

deltawave
Jan. 1, 2008, 02:24 PM
Wow, you base ALL of your opinions SOLELY on direct experience? That explains a lot. Gotcha.

You know, they SAY the world is flat. :lol:

caballus
Jan. 1, 2008, 02:26 PM
I won't over-vaccinate or over-worm. But I won't use homeopathic stuff because it doesn't work

Think I asked this of you before, Thomas ... can you say, without any doubt, would you stake your life on it ... that homeopathy doesn't work? HAVE YOU EVER TRIED IT?

Bluey
Jan. 1, 2008, 02:30 PM
All I will say is that we lost a horse to WNV in June, that had been properly vaccinated before and boosted in March.

Even the best vaccines are only 95% effective, because of all kinds of reasons, the immune status of the horse that is receiving it between them and we don't know that when we vaccinate.

Statistics have shown time and again that titers are not a good way to measure response to infection.
All they tell us is that there was a reaction to an illness or vaccine, but not how the individual will respond to a challenge.
Vaccine manufacturers use titers to see that a response occurred, but they don't depend ONLY on that to say a vaccine is effective, they run many other tests with actual exposure to the organism they are vaccinating for.

Someone called vaccines "poison"? Not by far.
Poisons are the MSM and all other sort of supplements people use on themselves and their horses, the alcohol that was consumed last night and many things in our environment.
Vaccines? Far from it, in the larger measure of things poisonous.;)

WildBlue
Jan. 1, 2008, 02:43 PM
Think I asked this of you before, Thomas ... can you say, without any doubt, would you stake your life on it ... that homeopathy doesn't work? HAVE YOU EVER TRIED IT?

I'm not Thomas, but I can state from experience that homeopathy does bugger-all for humans with severe poison ivy rash, strep throat, second- and third-degree burns, flu, roundworms, broken bones, or leukemia. And it very nearly DID cost me my life a couple of times, quite literally life-flight.

Homeopathy does reasonably well for first-degree burns, bumps, scrapes, bruises, and upset tummy, though.

Lookout
Jan. 1, 2008, 02:43 PM
You know, they SAY the world is flat. :lol:

So what?

atr
Jan. 1, 2008, 02:45 PM
There's a lot to be said for moderation in all things, and examining the circumstances and environment before you apply blanket rules.

For instance. I live in the middle of nowhere. My little herd at home is pretty much a closed herd. We are up a mountain at 7K feet. We see about three mosquitoes a year. We are blanketed with snow for about 5 months a year. There is no rabies here, Thank God. (I can't imagine not vaccinating for that if it was appropriate.)

So, bearing this in mind, I vaccinate all but one of my horses once a year with the minimum possible range--tetanus, flu, and WNV, the latter because my vet feels it's a good idea here still. We don't need to vax for PHF, and I really don't see the need for E/W under our circumstances.

There is one who did not get vaccinated last year at all. The jury is still out on what to do with him this year. I'm leaning towards just Tetanus, and worrying about even that. He had a horrible reaction to his shots the year before, and I'm honestly concerned it might kill him if it happened again. Now, it might not, but it's a huge risk to take.

As far as worming goes, yet again I look at the environment. Every 60 days seems about right for up here. If I lived somewhere wet and lush with actual pasture and lots of horses, I'd be doing it more often.

My cats all get their first series, but that's it. My two beloved and now rather elderly siameses had a reaction to a bad batch of vaccine a few years ago, so we haven't vaccinated them since.

So, think about what you are doing and use those powerful, miraculous drugs judiciously.

Lookout
Jan. 1, 2008, 02:47 PM
I won't over-vaccinate or over-worm. But I won't use homeopathic stuff because it doesn't work.

Homeopathy does not work like vaccines and is not intended to. It is not a 'preventative' treatment. So it couldn't be expected to 'work' that way. Bully for you for not using something that it's not intended for.

blackstallion
Jan. 1, 2008, 02:57 PM
Slightly OT, but there is an excellent article about rabies in horses in the January 2008 issue of Equus. It is not available on line yet. It was interesting to note Virginia is the 2nd state in the nation your horse is most likely to be exposed to the rabies virus! (Texas ranked 1st).

meredithbarlow
Jan. 1, 2008, 03:11 PM
So what?

Her point being that we do take others words for some things at some point in the game no matter who we are. Meaning Have YOU ever been in a space craft to tell for certain that the world is in fact round? Have you ever sailed the entire thing to PROVE to your self that its round? Not saying its a good or a bad argument just explaining the bit of sarcasm.

(and yes I do apologize since I did say I was staying out of this thread!, I should have known that was impossible.)

Kenike
Jan. 1, 2008, 03:44 PM
I haven't read the whole thread, just some on the first page....sorry.

As a parent who is selective on vaccines (delaying some, simply skipping some, allowing few now), I think this is okay in animals. Generally.

I wouldn't skip rabies. In most cases once a year on the others is fine, otherwise twice a year. But I don't necessarily think horses (and other pets) need a huge battery of everything under the sun available to man (see my feelings on my son's shots above). I'm among those who feel we over-vaccinate, under-educate.

In the OP's particular case, I'd be looking to hire a new vet. Every 3 months is ridiculous! Both in terms of health AND pocketbook!

And, yes, I have seen a dog die from parvo (a few times), I have seen cats die from various communicable & preventable diseases, and I have seen horses die from things preventable, as well. (parasite and pathogen both) Horrible? Yes! And part of why I don't just totally eradicate vx's.

equinelaw
Jan. 1, 2008, 07:08 PM
I can't speak for Thomas1 either, but one would assume since he has lukemia he has "staked his life" on whether hocas pocas homeopathey works or not. Since he he said many times that he does not believe it can work, becuase there are no active ingredients at all, one could imagine if he thought it had any chance of saving his life he would not be afraid to try it.

He hasn't been cured and he knows its out there, so he is an expample of someone who staked their life on all avilible treatments and did not find homeopathy to be a viable option.

Homeopathy and "natural cures" are not the same thing. The bullet could be considerted a "natural cure" as it is pretty much pure metal just like is found in nature, but homeopathy has no ingredients so it is a faith based treatment. I just don't see how a horse can beleive strongly enough in a dose of sugar water to cure it if anything. The placebo effect does not work very well with animals--only their owners:)

I too agree that we all must be aware of who is manufaytring our vaccines and drugs and what their track record is that year. I good place to do that is COTH. There isn't much incentive for research inthis area, so I do take anecdotal evidence, if supported by enough disinterested parties, under advisement. FORT DOGDE and Zimecterin Gold come up ofetn enough that one could assume its not the actual idea of vaccinations that can cause problems--but a few particual bad actors that seem to screw up too often and send out bad batches of otherwise safe vaccines and treatments.

In 40 years I have never personally seen a case of strangles. I read about one in The Red Pony, but I think vaccinations had a lot to do with the rareness of the infection until recently. Now it seems to be all over. Is that becuase people got scared to use the vaccine?

caballus
Jan. 1, 2008, 07:17 PM
but homeopathy has no ingredients so it is a faith based treatment.

I can understand how you feel about this but how can one explain the healings that occur when Hom. is administered to infants, animals or unconscious patients? Faith and even knowledge of administration is not even a question in those cases.

So, once again ... and I'll expand my "audience" for the question - have you ever TRIED Homeopathy? If not, how can you possibly say, with no uncertainty, that it does not work?

equinelaw
Jan. 1, 2008, 07:25 PM
becuase it impossible for it to work. Sometimes things heal no matter what you do. Homeopathy can do no good. so I doubt it does any harm and things heal on their own. It can do harm if it is used instead of proven cures and preventives though.

I don't have anything against people using it along with proper medications, but frankly if you lived near me and used homeropathy on a infant INSTEAD of something that works for a serious desease? I'd petition the court the appoint a gaurdian ad litum to watch over the child's care. Thats just nuts. People do that? To other people who cannot chose? Like infants and coma patients?

Faith is always a question in how you interpret results. Science is the method that demands reproducable results. I will stick with science for my animals and science for my faith. Within science there is always room for more information to give us better results. We migh tbe over doing our cures, but I prefer that to under doing them.

EqTrainer
Jan. 1, 2008, 07:28 PM
Weeeeellll..... I did have a rehab horse with horrendous abcessing. Caballus recommended... oh Caballus, what was it? And the abcessing stopped. And never came back.. until now (4 years later). So.. Caballus... WHAT WAS IT?!!!!

Who knows if it was coincidence or not, but for $7.00 it's worth a shot.

equinelaw
Jan. 1, 2008, 07:31 PM
I agree with that. For $7 it is worth a shot, as long as you are willing to use other methods if it doesn't cure it. I wouldn't want neighbors that relied on it for rabies control.

EqTrainer
Jan. 1, 2008, 07:32 PM
I agree with that. For $7 it is worth a shot, as long as you are willing to use other methods if it doesn't cure it. I wouldn't want neighbors that relied on it for rabies control.

Exactly!

JHUshoer20
Jan. 1, 2008, 07:35 PM
So, once again ... and I'll expand my "audience" for the question - have you ever TRIED Homeopathy? If not, how can you possibly say, with no uncertainty, that it does not work?
It works Gwen,

Me and you will talk sometime. Arguing with people like that is a waste of time though:yes:

George

caballus
Jan. 1, 2008, 07:46 PM
Weeeeellll..... I did have a rehab horse with horrendous abcessing. Caballus recommended... oh Caballus, what was it? And the abcessing stopped. And never came back.. until now (4 years later). So.. Caballus... WHAT WAS IT?!!!!

Who knows if it was coincidence or not, but for $7.00 it's worth a shot.
*GRIN* ... well, depends on if the abscess is "brewing" or has burst. If "brewing" you'll want to use Hepar Sulp. 30C ... one "dose" X3 daily for 2 days. Then when the abscess blows out you'll use "Silicea 30C" to help resolve it. Same ... 1 dose TID for 2 days.

Glad it helped. ... Let us know how it helps this time.

:) -- Gwen

caballus
Jan. 1, 2008, 07:47 PM
It works Gwen,

Me and you will talk sometime. Arguing with people like that is a waste of time though:yes:

George

Would love to chat, George! And arguments/discussions help to keep the mind alert *GRIN* ... besides, Hubby's watching football and I'm not interested so this is keeping me entertained and from being bored ... hahahahaha!

caballus
Jan. 1, 2008, 07:52 PM
becuase it impossible for it to work. BUT ... if you've not tried it then you cannot say, beyond doubt, that it IS impossible to work. And yes, many times things will resolve by doing nothing but the resolutions can be amazingly quick (within mins.) in acute situations with the correct remedy administered. The results in chronic dis-eases also can be very quick to begin. One or two instances would not be enough for me to believe it works. Heck, even a dozen or so wouldn't. But a few dozen? 50? 100? Then one has to start thinking ...

Nanoscience ... nanoscience. Sounds like something from Mork and Mindy's show (what was that?) but its a legit science. Homeopathy would fall under that along with quantum physics and quantum science, I believe. It goes beyond Avagadro's "theory" ...

deltawave
Jan. 1, 2008, 08:09 PM
In biological systems, one can NEVER say anything "beyond doubt".

Am I CERTAIN that my Shetland pony isn't going to jump the fence when I'm gone? Yes, virtually certain. But not "certain beyond doubt". The laws of physics don't allow "beyond doubt", but they do allow us to get pretty close. It is not necessary to personally try things to know (within the limits of "knowing") that they may or may not work, simply based on probabilities and general knowledge. If you jump off the roof, you are not CERTAIN to die, but you might. You could also say you are not CERTAIN to get injured, but you probably will. These things can be accepted without personally trying it out!

One can never "know" whether or not a given remedy (be it holistic, allopathic, faith-based or otherwise) has worked or NOT worked with certainty. Requiring certainty is unnecessary, and insisting on it is futile.

With things like tummyaches, headaches, cold symptoms, rashes, etc. there is plenty of opportunity for things to JUST GET BETTER. One could say with equal "truth" that such-and-such remedy DID or DID NOT work.

equinelaw
Jan. 1, 2008, 08:12 PM
No. It doesn't work. You are nuts. Nice, but nuts. I believe you believe, but if it worked. every time I drank a coke full of sugar water something in my body would be cured. I do not mean that nuts is evil or stupid or anything snarky, I just mean you see what you want to see and beleive in the face of facts what cannot be possible. Thats is faith.

So yes, I have tried it. I use sugar water often and that would be a blind trial for whatever ails me. Lots of things still ail me:)

I do not think you mean any harm or even understand such simple concepts as needing one atom to work. I can tell that from your signature fishy.
In fact, I had never even investigated homeopathy until I used your link. It was my first exposure and led me to investigate further.

You also believe jesus will heal and that magic happens all the time. I do not have a problem with your maigical beliefs and clearly you are not alone, as even George has cited "The Flood" as an histroical event, but I just don't want you letting diseases spread that science has controlled or talking others into it.
That effects me and mine and crosses personal belief systems.

Vaccines are excatly what homeopathy thought it was doing 200 years ago. Give small amount of the substence to cure the disease. Been there, done that, moved on. We probably owe our modern wonders to the work your guru started, but at some point you must understand that zero means zero?

I don't agree with bashing you with AN becuase I do not think an entire mole of anything is neccasasry for active results, but you need something besides a memory that the thing was once there and sugar water.

Its not about my beleif systems or my love of arguing. I am concerned you might live near me and be keeping diseases alive and active that we could get rid of with proper methods. Polo was not cured by 200 years of homeopathy. Nor were infections or rabies or other things you can spread to me or my horses. That troubles me. A lot. You being nice just makes it more scary as more people will believe you.

Carry on in curing abcesses all you like, but please do not cross the lines of good sense and cure strangles, flus or rabies with it.

deltawave
Jan. 1, 2008, 08:14 PM
please do not cross the lines of good sense and cure strangles, flus or rabies with it.

No worries there. :)

Thank you for stating clearly the difference between BELIEF and KNOWLEDGE.

equinelaw
Jan. 1, 2008, 08:18 PM
And I didn't even get $7 for it:):):):)

JSwan
Jan. 1, 2008, 08:30 PM
I noticed something that none of y'all have brought up. I'm curious as to why.

One reason we don't want disease in our livestock is because of the economic loss to the industry; locally, regionally, and even nationally.

I'm not quite sure many of you understand what it's like to have an outbreak of a disease, and then have your state vet intervene - and what that intervention can mean.

These arguments against vaccination, particularly for those diseases which are capable of spreading to other species of livestock, as well as humans, are completely selfish and self centered. I really don't care who is getting messages from space aliens, or whether or not homeopathy works.

These diseases are not benign conditions; restricted to only your horse. While I completely support an owners decisions about their animal - the owner also has a responsibility to ensure their animals do not pose a health risk.

And I'm sorry - but a lot of you are making decisions about your animals that pose a risk to other livestock as well as humans. The risk to the animal population is less if that horse does not travel, but since humans do travel, quite a bit, we can carry contagion with us and spread it to other animals; some of whom could be weak or infirm.

Virginia went through an EHV-1 outbreak last winter. It resulted in enormous economic losses, as well as fear, panic, rumormongering, gossip - which made the economic losses even worse. A localized strangles outbreak can do the same thing. The quarantine can damage a barn's reputation, ruin the entire competition season for that barn's horses, any horses that have come in to our out of that barn, and the protocols required to contain the outbreak must be diligently adhered to.

While YOU believe your horse should not be vaccinated for just little old strangles - what you forget is that should your horse, mildly ill with the condition, could make many many other horses violently ill; even kill them.

I'm not advocating everyone vaccinate for every single condition out there. But for God's sake - your horse does not live in a vacuum. Your decision not to vaccinate could result in nothing more than a stuffy nose or fever for your horse. Or it could result in a widespread outbreak of a disease that kills many animals and devastates the economy.

It ain't all about YOU.

caffeinated
Jan. 1, 2008, 08:47 PM
explanation of homeopathy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWE1tH93G9U)

(of course, some things are now advertised as "homeopathic" that would more correctly be called herbal or other types of remedies... but this is a great explanation of the classical form of homeopathy. It's a long video, but for anyone sort of on the fence, worth watching)

BuddyRoo
Jan. 1, 2008, 08:47 PM
That's my point about "riding on the coattails of others", JSwan.

Some get lucky. But they get lucky because everyone ELSE is taking the "risk" to vaccinate.

It's true...sometimes, you get better after illness for no known reason.

As a child, I was ill with meningitis. The doctors told my parents I would die. I got to wear my new "school clothes" in the middle of summer because....they thought I was going to die. They weren't precisely sure what I had at the time they put me on a plane to fly back to the children's hospital at the University of Iowa...the results didn't come til later.

And somehow...between the time when I was delirious and running a high feverand be accompanied via ambulance to the plane and the time we touched down....I got better.

Sometimes, it just happens.

But most of the time, it doesn't without some sort of medical intervention. Call it luck. Call it faith. Call it whatever you want.

To me, it's just a gamble. And I want to put my money on things with independent empircal data supporting them. IE: Vaccines.

equinelaw
Jan. 1, 2008, 08:54 PM
As a child I was cured of a horrible fever by watching old Perry Mason episodes on TV. I am still suffering the side effects of that treatment:)

caballus
Jan. 1, 2008, 09:03 PM
No. It doesn't work. You are nuts. Nice, but nuts. Well, being nuts sometimes has its advantages! *Grin*
I believe you believe, but if it worked. every time I drank a coke full of sugar water something in my body would be cured. I do not mean that nuts is evil or stupid or anything snarky, I just mean you see what you want to see and beleive in the face of facts what cannot be possible. Thats is faith. Hmmmmm, well faith is faith but still does not preclude the fact that infants, animals and unconscious have been "healed" with Homeopathy (as well as with "Faith and Prayers *grin*) even when conventional chemical medicine has failed.


So yes, I have tried it. I use sugar water often and that would be a blind trial for whatever ails me. Lots of things still ail me:) sugar water eh? *Grin* Wonder how that works for diets? homeopathy is based on like cures like so if sugar, in its "wholeness" adds calories and causes excessive weight then the succussed and diluted must cause one to lose weight! hahahahaha ... I wish but who's to say?


I do not think you mean any harm or even understand such simple concepts as needing one atom to work. I can tell that from your signature fishy. Ahhhh, but you, I'm sure, equate me with those radical terrorists known as Born Agains. Well, yeah, the fish just relates to those who believe Jesus as the Son of God who died for our sins BUT ... its all a very personal journey, isn't it? No, I do not mean harm and I'm the FIRST one to advise someone to call his or her vet or Dr. BUT I will also suggest that in the interim of waiting for the vet or Dr. that maybe a remedy might help. On the other hand with a situation that does not merit the emergency services of a medical or veterinary professional then why NOT try a remedy? The "wrong" remedy will do no harm but the "right" remedy might just do the trick! In the last couple of months I've been witness to the healings of several animals AND humans who suffered from chronic situations where conventional veterinary and medical intervention did NOT help at all. Even in the cases of cases that had been active for over 5 years. They include IBS (longstanding of over 40 years), chronic abscessing, Lyme disease, recurrent colicking, residual effects from flu and pneumonia, Ulcerated Cornea ... all with failed medical intervention and verifications. Vets and Drs. were all notified of the results. All said something to the effect of "spontaneous healing" ... ?????? Two of them wanted to know more about Homeopathy.


In fact, I had never even investigated homeopathy until I used your link. It was my first exposure and led me to investigate further. Well, again, if you haven't tried it then don't knock it. For instance, that "oscillococcinum" that is advertised for flu symptoms. *I* just tried it last week. Had all the "symptoms" of immediate, impending flu bug ... sore throat, swollen and throbbing sinuses, sneezing, coughing, aching, fever ... stiff neck; nausea - the usual "symptoms" *I* get before I'm down and out for 7 - 10 days. Lo and behold, even *I* questioned the efficacy of this stuff but ... took it and the next morning woke up feeling fine. No recurrance of symptoms at all, thank God ... didn't wanna be sick for Christmas!! So hey ... it does not harm. Why not give it a try?


You also believe jesus will heal and that magic happens all the time I do not have a problem with your maigical beliefs and clearly you are not alone, as even George has cited "The Flood" as an histroical event, but I just don't want you letting diseases spread that science has controlled or talking others into it.. Yes, I believe Jesus heals but I do not believe in magic. As for the Flood being a historical event or not - can you PROVE the 'science' of "Evolution"? No - evolution is a *theory*. Can't be proven. If evolution is a science then why are there still chimpanzees and gorillas in our midst? *grin* As for MY letting diseases spread or taking others into it ... Just as with horses, I don't FORCE anyone to do anything. I also would not, ever, tell someone NOT to call a vet or Dr; as I said, quite the contrary. I advise people to contact their healthcare professionals. But, bottom line - to each his/her own; each of us is responsible for our OWN decisions, right? You are not responsible for any of MY decisions nor am I, yours.

That effects me and mine and crosses personal belief systems.*grin* ... only if you allow it to be so.


Vaccines are excatly what homeopathy thought it was doing 200 years ago. Give small amount of the substence to cure the disease. Been there, done that, moved on. Ummmmm, no ?? This discussion is actually about vaccinations, is it not? In a very wide description yes, vaccinating is much like Homeopathy. Only Homeopathy takes the "vaccines" further into a deeper, energy level that is only now being studied in the "nano" sciences.
We probably owe our modern wonders to the work your guru started, but at some point you must understand that zero means zero? There are negatives less than zero but much more powerful. Afterall - a negative balance in the checkbook can drive one to insanity! *grin* That negative balance is just as strong as a positive one. Negative and positive ENERGIES are real ... EVERYTHING in existence is energy.

I don't agree with bashing you with AN becuase I do not think an entire mole of anything is neccasasry for active results, but you need something besides a memory that the thing was once there and sugar water. I'm not sure I even agree with the "memory" theory of Homeopathics ... I feel its more of the energy aspect of which I just mentioned. Energy = frequencies = resonances. EVERYTHING in existance resonates at a specific, personal level. Ever hear of the ancient solfeggios? Certain frequencies that can alter water, emotions, DNA ... interesting stuff! Frequencies are life altering (or ending).


Its not about my beleif systems or my love of arguing. I am concerned you might live near me and be keeping diseases alive and active that we could get rid of with proper methods. Polo was not cured by 200 years of homeopathy. Nor were infections or rabies or other things you can spread to me or my horses. That troubles me. A lot. You being nice just makes it more scary as more people will believe you. Well, the essence of Homeopathy is CURING the CAUSE and to cure the cause one needs to allow the "host" of the dis-ease (the animal or human's body) to eradicate it. Allopathy suppresses symptoms and thereby many times allows the dis-ease to continue to exist within the host. (think Shingles : Chicken Pox) Homeopathy causes the body to EXPEL the disease and thus, the symptoms as well. Think of "jumpstarting your car" and then think of Hom. as "jumpstarting your immune system". Enough energy is left in the Hom remedy to initiate the immune system to doing its proper job. Symptoms are merely the body's way of trying to expel whatever dis-ease there is. But our common medicines treat the "symptoms" and not the "diseases". Decongestants, sore throat remedies, skin salves, etc. all treat SYMPTOMS of a disease. The do nothing to eradicate the cause of the disease. Antibiotics may kill off the bacteria but do nothing to treat the HOST/immune system defense which is/was in such a state of weakness that it was unable to fight off the disease to begin with. One can treat a swamp for mosquitoes and kill them all off but the swamp remains a swamp and is the perfect breeding spot for more mosquitoes to breed. One needs to treat the SWAMP then the mosquitoes will die off if their environment is not conducive to their existence.


Carry on in curing abcesses all you like, but please do not cross the lines of good sense and cure strangles, flus or rabies with it. Well, if it works then it works. :) If not then no harm is done. Unlike conventional meds ... there's *always* a possibility of some sort of adverse reaction. Just look at any magazine now that has an ad on one page then the following spread of two pages in 4 pt. type that is unreadable FILLED with warnings about the med. *shivers* ... that's scary just in itself.

Bluey
Jan. 1, 2008, 09:04 PM
Well, strangles used to be very common, that is why a vaccine was made.
One of the first vaccines for it was made by Franklin Laboratories in Denver and they took the samples here in the 1950's, from our broodmare herd, thru our veterinarian, since we were having an outbreak at that time.

Those early vaccines were very basic, but they worked fine, didn't have another case here until one arabian horse we bought in the late 1970's and have not had another since.

In Europe, I worked in one riding center that imported horses from all over Europe and some times from South America.
Before there was a vaccine for strangles, we had several cases a year, that we quickly isolated in the quarantine barn and normally could keep other horses from contracting, except a rare case here and there.

Vaccine protocols are presented so they protect the most individuals that may be exposed.
At times it is recomended that we overvaccinate, just to be sure that as many as possible are safe.
Those very few that come down with the rare reaction to a vaccine happens and it is sad for them, but for so many to be protected helps the general population stay safer.
Not to do so would be unethical.

caballus
Jan. 1, 2008, 09:06 PM
what you forget is that should your horse, mildly ill with the condition, could make many many other horses violently ill; even kill them. Ahhhh, but if your horse is vaccinated then it *shouldn't* get the disease, right? Isn't that what vaccines are for?

Would anyone care to discuss the immune system of an animal and how it works? Or, is supposed to work?

JHUshoer20
Jan. 1, 2008, 09:06 PM
It is true that some of us have some deeply held personal convictions concerning what we will and will not introduce into our bodies. I don't think anyone will deny that as free people we have that right.

So what should this have to do with animals?

Reason is simple, because human and veterinary drugs are essentially coming from the same place. They are the same companies and oftentimes even the same drugs.

There have been numerous examples of these vaccines and other drugs not being safe. Even on this thread you yourselves have come forward with numerous examples of your horses having reactions. Some of us find this unacceptable. They should be recalled and reworked until they are made safe.

I realize worming and vaccinating are done with best of intentions. Problem is I don't see "better than nothing" and "good enough" as being good enough.

AMA medicine has flaws. It's imperfect and there are other ways to do things and other alternatives for both people and animals.
George

caballus
Jan. 1, 2008, 09:12 PM
explanation of homeopathy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWE1tH93G9U)

(of course, some things are now advertised as "homeopathic" that would more correctly be called herbal or other types of remedies... but this is a great explanation of the classical form of homeopathy. It's a long video, but for anyone sort of on the fence, worth watching)


And in rebuttal to this:

Bristol Homeopathic Hospital, 1997-2003
One of the most comprehensive outcome surveys is an analysis of over 23,000 outpatient consultations at the Bristol Homeopathic Hospital from November 1997 to October 2003. This represented over 6,500 individual patients whose overall outcome was recorded at follow-up. More than 70% of these follow-up patients reported clinical improvement following homeopathic treatment.45 Many of the patients in the analysis had previously received mainstream medical intervention at the secondary care level and had either failed to respond satisfactorily or had been unable to tolerate the medication prescribed. Table 3 summarises some of the key findings. Homeopathy therefore achieves positive clinical outcomes in certain conditions that have not yet been proven in RCTs (e.g. Crohn's disease, depression, eczema, headache, menopausal syndrome).

You can read more from the source: http://www.trusthomeopathy.org/case/res_outcomesurveys.html

Just for curiosity ... how many times has a conventional drug been tested on over 23,000 patients BEFORE being brought to the public?

caffeinated
Jan. 1, 2008, 09:15 PM
As for the Flood being a historical event or not - can you PROVE the 'science' of "Evolution"? No - evolution is a *theory*. Can't be proven. If evolution is a science then why are there still chimpanzees and gorillas in our midst?

Someone doesn't understand either the concept of what scientific "theory" actually means, nor have they studied this particular one...

oh well, that's not horse related anyway.

This conversation does remind me though, of an informational packet I got about Tahitian Noni Juice and it's equine supplement. There was a story in there about a miraculous recovery- a horse who had been stuck in a ditch unable to move for a very long time, was rescued-dehydrated and very weak from his ordeal, he was given tahitian noni juice (and electrolytes and water). He recovered, but his recovery was hailed as the wonderful effects of the noni juice (sugar water, as anyone who knows what noni fruit tastes like can attest) despite the use of two very time tested and medically sound substances for what the horse was suffering from.

equinelaw
Jan. 1, 2008, 09:15 PM
If you are reccomending homeopathy along with other treatments and after other methods have failed, by all means, I have no problem with that. I just don't like the thought of instead.
But don't knowck Perry Mason unless you have TRIED it either:)

And George, you do not have the right. The law allows us to require certain things for the public good even if it infringes on personal rights. For expample, rabies vaccination are required by law. So are human vaccinations under certain circumstances. The law is not any more scientific than faith and it can be apllied haphazadly as well. Rights are only what you are given and rigth now your rights are not protected is the law says so.

You know this--you must have some vaccination scars on your arms?

I came to COTH when my horse had a bad reaction to a "safe" drug. It pissed me off that they knew and didn't warn me or fix it. I am 100% with you on that front, but I do not see it as a huge conspericay--just some marketing yo yos who make and choices at one company for one product. I am willing to balance risks, but I want to know what the risks are.

Find me a plaintiff and I can fix it:):)

There is a golden mean where we all can agree, but niether extreme is for the benifit of all.

deltawave
Jan. 1, 2008, 09:17 PM
Just for curiosity ... how many times has a conventional drug been tested on over 23,000 patients BEFORE being brought to the public?

Virtually always. If by "brought to the public" you mean released for widespread use, then the answer is MOST drugs. If you mean "never tested on humans" then of course the answer is zero. Between phase I, phase II, and phase III trials, the majority of drugs are tested on many, many, many thousands of individuals before being "brought to the public".

Although "23,000 outpatient consultations" is nothing like treating 23,000 people with the same drug.

Bluey
Jan. 1, 2008, 09:39 PM
---"AMA medicine has flaws. It's imperfect and there are other ways to do things and other alternatives for both people and animals."---

There you are wrong, not that traditional medicine has flaws, everything in this world does, but that many of the alternatives some here are proposing as reasonable are proven effective at all.
That is why they are NOT part of traditional medicine.

It is ok to go on faith, when you are not hurting anyone.
When you put others at risk, then we better talk about who's "rights" we need to consider first.

Vaccines are what let us live without so many diseases that decimated people.
Every one of us, including those that don't believe in them, should be thankful for vaccinated people, since all of us, including those few not vaccinated ones, are protected living with groups of well vaccinated people.

Vaccines are only as effective as best we know how to make them, store, ship, give AND as the individual given them is able to mount a defense with the appropiate memory cells for that specific organism AND is able to have them reproduce quickly if exposed to it.

That means that vaccinating may not be 100% efficient, but we come very close to it.:cool:

equinelaw
Jan. 1, 2008, 09:42 PM
Or using a double blind study.

If I get cancer, I do not want to be on the homeopathic placebo side of things. I'll be happy to glug some down as a back-up, but I'd take the nasty chemo with all the side effects first.

. . . and wait. . I drink DIET Coke, shouldn't I be skinny?:)

My horse is not colicing tonight. He usually colics on holidays. There are more bullets then usual flying around. Therefore, I can safely conslude that Ghazzu's rabies remedy also prevents colic! I tried it and it works!

JHUshoer20
Jan. 1, 2008, 09:46 PM
And George, you do not have the right. The law allows us to require certain things for the public good even if it infringes on personal rights. For expample, rabies vaccination are required by law. So are human vaccinations under certain circumstances. The law is not any more scientific than faith and it can be apllied haphazadly as well. Rights are only what you are given and rigth now your rights are not protected is the law says so.

You know this--you must have some vaccination scars on your arms?
Yes and no, As you know thats a question as old as law itself. Who's rights are more important-the individual or the state? Bet you debated that first day of law school didnt you?:) Fact of the matter is in all but Colorado it is perfectly legal to claim a religious exemption from vaccination. Schools and such may threaten but when people know their rights and stand their ground the authorities back off.

And yes I do have a cowpox scar. That gives my age away as they stopped doing that in the very early '70s. My parents were clueless as well.
George

JHUshoer20
Jan. 1, 2008, 09:51 PM
If I get cancer, I do not want to be on the homeopathic placebo side of things. I'll be happy to glug some down as a back-up, but I'd take the nasty chemo with all the side effects first.

Excellent subject! Glad you brought it up! I've known many people that died of cancer. I've never seen chemo work on any of them:no:

Tell me what in the world is the logic of giving you a poison in hopes that it will kill the cancer before it does you? Thats worse quackery than pinfiring for crying out loud! And after it's long track record of failure it's still what doctors do first. Whats up with that?
George

WildBlue
Jan. 1, 2008, 10:01 PM
the "nano" sciences.

You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


If your grasp of the immune system is on par with your grasp of evolution and nanotech then, no, I'd rather not discuss it with you, thanks.

equinelaw
Jan. 1, 2008, 10:02 PM
um. . . .the alternitive is certain death? many people also live through cancer who would have died before. My mother is one of them.

Cancer sucks and kills a lot of people. Sorry for your loss, but we dont have a 100% effective cure for cancer yet. We do save a lot of people who would be dead 50 years ago though.

No, we never dabate such stuff in law school. We just read what the law says and then tell people how to follow it. The cases fall all over the place on livesaving treatments and relgious expemtions. Vaccines, not so much, but given a good plauge those rights will go bye bye too.

We dabate the "tragidy of the commons" a lot. That is what we have here. Some people want to ride on the rights of other people. Its not called a tragidy for nothin:)

As far as animals go, there are no regligous exemptions for the very good reasons J Swan pointed out. On the rare days that J Swan and I agree, there is a pretty stroing argument to be made in what we agree on:)

Unless we have segregated tack stores and feed stores and whatnots, I do not want not vaccinators tracking germs onto my commons. I'm selfish that way.

caballus
Jan. 1, 2008, 10:05 PM
More rebuttals:

Historical review of the main publications
A number of large-scale studies designed to evaluate the huge amount of homeopathic
literature have been conducted, especially in the last 10 years.
Organisations and institutes of great international prestige and importance have
dealt with the issue of homeopathy.
All of them have concluded that homeopathy possesses therapeutic efficacy.


QUOTED FROM: guna.it/eng/ricerca/Homeopathy the scientific proofs of efficacy.pdf
-------------------------------------------
And from Sloan-Kettering:

One randomized, double-blind clinical trial showed homeopathic medicine can treat the heat of the skin resulting from radiotherapy for breast cancer (19). Another study reported that homeopathic treatment improved symptoms of xerostomia
-------------------------------------------
Some org. and hospitals utilizing Hom. in their treatments:

American Cancer Society
Mass General
Brigham & Womens
Dana Farber
Spaulding Rehab

and more.

If some of the best known and biggest hospitals are integrating Hom. in their treatments then there's gotta be something to it, wouldn't you think?

meredithbarlow
Jan. 1, 2008, 10:11 PM
dumb question - is homeopathy not the same as holistic??? i use devils claw n think it helps my pony when she is sore- can't give bute- ulcers. BUT i do not think it replaces nsaids.. thanks

equinelaw
Jan. 1, 2008, 10:14 PM
No. Sick and dying people need all the hope they can get and it can't hurt.

I do think beliefs and hope can cure some diseases by lowering stress and promoting the immune sytem. I do believe there is still a lot to learn and some of it will be amazing. I just don't believe in homeopathy.

I also don't believe you are stupid. I just think you are wrong. Corrolation and caustaion are not the same thing. However, a good marketing campaign can overide any objections to common sense.

You are getting more busines out of this then I am, and sometimes you just can't argue with succes:)

The more we argue the more potenital clients you reach. Just keep vaccinating and we can agree to disagree:)

caballus
Jan. 1, 2008, 10:14 PM
Devil's Claw is an herb that treats specific conditions. i.e. it's an anti-inflammatory to treat inflammation. Homeopathy works on the individual - not on the symptoms. Where conventional medicine (and herbals) look for a group of "symptoms" to classify and treat a disease, Hom. looks for unusual "symptoms" that are unique to the individual in order to treat the individual, not the symtoms or the disease.

equinelaw
Jan. 1, 2008, 10:16 PM
No! There is no reason holistic cannot work. You got some matter to deal with there. Thats what I always thought--homeopathy and holisitic were the same. Look up the homeopathy stuff and you just go:eek::eek::eek:

Asperin is holistic. Voodoo is homeopathy.

Did you read all those threads by people who prefer no power tools and no drugs? Whats up with that?

caballus
Jan. 1, 2008, 10:16 PM
You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Well, would you be so kind as to enlighten me, then, please?

equinelaw
Jan. 1, 2008, 10:19 PM
Very small. Yhat would still be larger then nothing or enegry:) I think you mean wave particle theroy. That is were traces of energy would be found. Or perhaps in string thoery, but not nano science that deals with itsy bitsy stuff.

JHUshoer20
Jan. 1, 2008, 10:19 PM
um. . . .the alternitive is certain death? many people also live through cancer who would have died before. My mother is one of them.

Cancer sucks and kills a lot of people. Sorry for your loss, but we dont have a 100% effective cure for cancer yet. We do save a lot of people who would be dead 50 years ago though.
Have you ever heard of oxygen therapy? They've been doing great with it in Mexico. Saving lives inexpensively. Would be plenty of good progress made if not for drug company dominated AMA Medicine.

Tell you what, read the history of the AMA. Don't take my word for anything. There are other ways to do things it doesn't have to always involve drugs.

Reminds me of people who have such poor horsemanship skills that all they know is grab for a needle.

It should be thought of last, not first.

For whichever one called Gwen or me a nut I'll tell you this-Tomorrows mighty oak is yesterday's little nut that held it's ground:yes:
George

equinelaw
Jan. 1, 2008, 10:23 PM
Acorns secrete a chemical to kill of other compition. Then they get to become mighty oaks by killing off other Oaks. Better living through chemestry:)

Mexico has always been a mecca for unapporved cancer treatments. Oxygen exists and if you use it to cure an illness, then you are using its chemical properties to cure an illness--a drug. Is the Mexican treatment free?

Do you just breathe the lovely Mexico city air and get cured?

Get back to horses or you lose your soap box:)

caballus
Jan. 1, 2008, 10:27 PM
Hey George ... between this and horseshoes.com there seems to be an awful lot of nutcrackers! Sheeeeeeesh!!! *GRIN*

WildBlue
Jan. 1, 2008, 10:27 PM
Well, would you be so kind as to enlighten me, then, please?

Equinelaw is quite correct.

equinelaw
Jan. 1, 2008, 10:29 PM
O please! We are wayyyyyyy kinder then the stuff you put up with on horsehoes.com!
Hell, I don't even do the cut paste respond to every comment crap! I go there to see what mean really is:)

caballus
Jan. 1, 2008, 10:34 PM
O please! We are wayyyyyyy kinder then the stuff you put up with on horsehoes.com!
Hell, I don't even do the cut paste respond to every comment crap! I go there to see what mean really is:) Actually, you're very correct. horseshoes.com is B-R-U-T-A-L!! Been there for many years and have seen probably the worst! Very entertaining, though ... :)

Lookout
Jan. 1, 2008, 10:36 PM
Therefore, I can safely conslude that Ghazzu's rabies remedy also prevents colic! I tried it and it works!

Once again, you show you don't know what you're talking about. Homeopathy is not a preventative treatment, and does not prevent anything despite your belief stated earlier that homeopathy 'thought' it was doing 200 years ago what vaccination does. Homeopathy is NOT a susbstitute for vaccination so there is no reason to be discussing it on a vaccination thread.

Ghazzu
Jan. 1, 2008, 10:37 PM
Well, the essence of Homeopathy is CURING the CAUSE and to cure the cause one needs to allow the "host" of the dis-ease (the animal or human's body) to eradicate it. Allopathy suppresses symptoms and thereby many times allows the dis-ease to continue to exist within the host. (think Shingles : Chicken Pox)


Considering that, at least whan I had it, allopathic medicine did not a damn thing to treat chicken pox, please explain how it is "suppressed".
It's the nature of the herpesviridae to remain latent once they have infected a host.
You can't blame allopathic medicine for that.

JHUshoer20
Jan. 1, 2008, 10:43 PM
Actually, you're very correct. horseshoes.com is B-R-U-T-A-L!! Been there for many years and have seen probably the worst! Very entertaining, though ... :)
Oh come on Gwen:D

We're all so lovable:yes:
George

equinelaw
Jan. 1, 2008, 10:48 PM
she started it:) I only know what I read through Gwens links and her comments during the ever popular sport of Gwen slapping here and on horseshoes.com.

I see nothing to indicate that she hasn't claimed it can prevent deseases as well as cure them.

Of course I dont know what I am talking about. I have a hard time trying to understand all the crap you guys are making up as it is. I am not an expert on the subject and I am not making it up as I go along. That puts me at behind form the start.

If it was there during a plause I can assume it was tried and in fact, if you follow those nice links she provides us you can learn a lot about the amazing history of homeopathy.

I don't make this stuff up. I really coudn't if I tried:)

All I hear is fear of the unknown. I faer the unknown too, but I don't make stuff up to make me fear it less.

JSwan
Jan. 1, 2008, 10:57 PM
Ahhhh, but if your horse is vaccinated then it *shouldn't* get the disease, right? Isn't that what vaccines are for?

Would anyone care to discuss the immune system of an animal and how it works? Or, is supposed to work?

So are you saying that you're not going to vaccinate your animals because everyone else should be vaccinating theres so it's not your fault if their animals get sick?

Because sometimes an animal isn't vaccinated because it's too young, it's too sick, the animal exhibited side effects which make boosters/future vaccinations unwise.

The whole idea is to prevent or mitigate the spread of DISEASE. Y'all are acting like they get a pimple.

Tell you what - google "herd eradication". Then get back to me on your attempt to be cute about vaccinations.

The reason you have the luxury to be flippant about vaccination is because, through widespread vaccination of humans and animals for certain diseases, plagues and epidemics are a memory.

Or are they?

caballus
Jan. 1, 2008, 11:04 PM
Considering that, at least whan I had it, allopathic medicine did not a damn thing to treat chicken pox, please explain how it is "suppressed".
It's the nature of the herpesviridae to remain latent once they have infected a host.
You can't blame allopathic medicine for that. Hmmmm, perhaps a bad choice of analogy then other than the symptoms of Chicken pox are usually treated with Calamine or other skin lotion which, in turn, will "suppress" them. That will treat (suppress) the clinical symptoms of the Chicken Pox but the real cause remains "hidden" (latent) in the body. That's actually, a decent example of how a disease is "suppressed" in analogamous form. In theory, if a remedy were made from the herpes zoster bug, itself, then homeopathically speaking one could "cure" the disease, itself. That is, totally eradicate it from the body. Note that I *did* say "in theory". I;ve not done any research on this particular disease but it might be interesting to see if anyone has treated it successfully with Homeopathics. I know that I've used remedy to treat it on myself and have had "success" with the clinical symptoms (rash, etc) going away very quickly compared with my first bout with it (when I was first Dx'd by Dr. who gave me a Rx for a tiny, tiny, tiny tube of skin salve that cost $60 and then some sort of pills that cost me $120 for 10 days worth! Niether of which did any good that I can remember and even the Dr. said they probably wouldn't do much good.!!) The 2nd bout of it cost me $7.50 for a tube of Homeopathic remedy (can't remember, offhand, which one I took) which got rid of the rash in less than 1/2 the time from the previous bout. I guess I'll just have to wait and see if I get another round of shingles anytime soon. Hope not! They're miserable!!! :(

caballus
Jan. 1, 2008, 11:13 PM
So are you saying that you're not going to vaccinate your animals because everyone else should be vaccinating theres so it's not your fault if their animals get sick? Oh man ... the night is getting long! No, not saying that at all. Please don't go putting words into my mouth or twisting what I say. What I said was exactly what I meant. Given that vaccines are given to protect against diseases, if an animal is not vaccinated, why would the vaccinated animals be in danger?

Because sometimes an animal isn't vaccinated because it's too young, it's too sick, the animal exhibited side effects which make boosters/future vaccinations unwise. Of course.


The whole idea is to prevent or mitigate the spread of DISEASE. Y'all are acting like they get a pimple. A healthy animal should have the immune system that will protect him from disease. Personally, I think an animal that is on a wholly healthy husbandry regime will fare much better even if unvaccinated than an animal that is getting alot of chemical preventatives but is in a less than a favorable husbandry situation. A healthy horse is going to have a healthy immune system that is going to be strong enough to vigorously help fight off infections and diseases. A horse that is in a weakened constitutional state will not have the strength of the immune system so even with vaccines will not fare well.

Tell you what - google "herd eradication". Then get back to me on your attempt to be cute about vaccinations. Well, being adverse to the NAIS program I'm well aware of herd eradication and kill zones etc. And was I being "cute" about vaccinations? I merely asked a question.


The reason you have the luxury to be flippant about vaccination is because, through widespread vaccination of humans and animals for certain diseases, plagues and epidemics are a memory.

Or are they?Once again, I wasn't being cute or flippant .. I was asking a question.

GreekDressageQueen
Jan. 1, 2008, 11:37 PM
Hi Sabine :)

I only vaccinate my dogs and horses once a year for everything that I have to by law and by need (WN, Rhino, Rabies, Parvo, etc.) I do worm the dogs every month and the horses every 6 weeks without fail. I am not familiar with organic wormers and in this area I probably would stick with medicated wormers. I recently started vaccinating my old mare - she is 25 this year - every other year to ease the burden on her organs. She is happy, healthy, and vibrant. I also figure she has lived in 3 countries on two continents and if she isn't immune or at least resistance to the crap out there than I am not sure one shot a year will really help at her age.

A very good friend of mine is a holistic animal healer/therapist and although I haven't completely bought into the whole movement 100% I have seen her work make a difference. We put lots of different herbs in our horses' diets and I also use essential oils on the more sensitive horses. Rescue Remedy and Lavender worked wonders for a hyper-sensitive Selle Francais gelding.

I think vets have a tendency to over-vaccinate because they see so much crap every day. They also do a good job guilting owners "if you love your dog..." sort of thing. I personally think vaccinating every three months is way over the top, but then I'm not a vet. If your instincts tell you that is too much - I would go with your gut and don't be afraid to tell your vet "no thanks." I think once a year for dogs/horses is enough.

Kementari
Jan. 2, 2008, 12:09 AM
I don't know, J Swan - I both agree and disagree with your point. ;)

On the one hand, one is in fact doing not only one's own horses but other horses a disservice by refusing to vaccinate. I am actually very familiar with this, because my brother had such a bad reaction to the DTP vaccine that he could not (cannot) have it again. When we lived next door to Idaho, with one of the lowest childhood vaccination rates in the country, this was a matter of some concern, as you can imagine! (Luckily, at 20, he has made it through the most susceptible stage, though of course you can get these diseases at any point in life.)

On the other hand, that's almost an argument for blindly vaccinating for everything under the sun, just because otherwise you are being irresponsible towards others, even if you feel a particular vaccination is not a good choice for your situation (leaving aside, of course, those who cannot give a vaccination due to health or allergies or what have you). I've never vaccinated for VEE, because I've never lived anywhere where it was an issue. Yet theoretically, a horse carrying it could be transported to these northern climes, it could be transmitted to my horse, and then I could take my horse to a show (with lots of mosquitoes...) and infect several more. But is it irresponsible to not vaccinate for a disease that hasn't been seen in the US in decades? To me, that's a case where the risk of the side-effects of the vaccine to my (normal, healthy) horse, even if very small, is far greater than the risk of contracting the disease.

Obviously, that's an extreme example. Strangles, I think is more nuanced. I was working for a vet shortly after the new IN vaccine came out (well, it's not THAT new anymore...), and at that point it seemed pretty safe and effective. But what I've read and been told by my vets since then seems to indicate that it's NOT as safe OR effective as it seemed back then (still worlds better than the IM vaccine, to be sure), and strangles is an often preventable (don't let your horse play with strangers ;)) and largely treatable (though it's obnoxious, costly, and time-consuming) disease - unlike rabies, or even the encephalitises (which, though marginally treatable, have a fairly low survival rate). So, with agreement from my vet(s), my horses aren't vaccinated for strangles. And I've been through the uncertainty of finding out my horse was possibly exposed and having to wait through the incubation period (luckily, we were fine), and I still make that choice. But I also made the choice to keep my horse at home for three weeks when he might have been exposed, rather than risk exposing others.

So, it's a complex question, and cannot be made without taking all the factors into consideration. I guess I don't have a problem, ethically, with anyone who, relying on actual scientific information and veterinary advice, makes a decision not to vaccinate for a given disease. It's the people who think that some magikal fairy source from outer space is going to keep their horses healthy, or those who have read a few kooky articles on the internet and think that constitutes scientific knowledge who I have a problem with. :yes:

Sabine
Jan. 2, 2008, 12:36 AM
Hi Sabine :)

I only vaccinate my dogs and horses once a year for everything that I have to by law and by need (WN, Rhino, Rabies, Parvo, etc.) I do worm the dogs every month and the horses every 6 weeks without fail. I am not familiar with organic wormers and in this area I probably would stick with medicated wormers. I recently started vaccinating my old mare - she is 25 this year - every other year to ease the burden on her organs. She is happy, healthy, and vibrant. I also figure she has lived in 3 countries on two continents and if she isn't immune or at least resistance to the crap out there than I am not sure one shot a year will really help at her age.

A very good friend of mine is a holistic animal healer/therapist and although I haven't completely bought into the whole movement 100% I have seen her work make a difference. We put lots of different herbs in our horses' diets and I also use essential oils on the more sensitive horses. Rescue Remedy and Lavender worked wonders for a hyper-sensitive Selle Francais gelding.

I think vets have a tendency to over-vaccinate because they see so much crap every day. They also do a good job guilting owners "if you love your dog..." sort of thing. I personally think vaccinating every three months is way over the top, but then I'm not a vet. If your instincts tell you that is too much - I would go with your gut and don't be afraid to tell your vet "no thanks." I think once a year for dogs/horses is enough.

Hi GDQ,
Although I don't do everything like you- I agree with your theory 100%. I have seen amazing results using healers and animal communicators- but most of the peeps that know me personally know that I am a very keen analytical operator- and therefore don't make fun of me acknowledging the effectiveness of some of these strategies. I have not ever wormed my dogs- they do get their stools tested once a year- and so far so good. They do get garlic everyday...(not saying it works- but I guess it 'helps'). They also get once a week fresh marrowbones and overall a very holistic diet.
The horses get pretty much the same- a very healthy (although expensive diet) and as of recently more titres than actual shots. Once a year sounds like a plan- but really I think I will go the titre route first. My vet happens to be my friend and she and I have a very friendly yet fierce discussion about how to improve veterinary medicine and make it more kind to the horse. Once I told her about my plan she was 100% on board. She says that many owners WANT their horses vaccinated because all their friends do the same.
It's like trying to stop a moving train- it's painful.
We have worked out how to do the future just fine- and I am very much hoping for much improved performance of my current active horse and hoping for less issues with the 3 year old I am bringing along.....I think the issues are minor and don't 'threaten the horse for it's liveliness' but it reduces the ability to perform a lot- and really that's my issue- every little detail DOES matter to me. I want my horse WELL- and not experiencing minor aches and pains all the time...

Albion
Jan. 2, 2008, 03:10 AM
Seems to me, Sabine, if everyone who didn't want to be on a 'regular' vaccination schedule for what ever reason went with the titre and vaccinate-or-don't as needed, there wouldn't be an issue. That's a lot different from the people I've met who don't vaccinate - and don't pull titres or anything else.

I guess I've been lucky with not having overzealous vets or human doctors - neither my animals nor I have ever been what I would describe as 'over vaccinated.' My dog gets a stool sample checked every year & so far, no problems, so she doesn't get wormed for intestinal parasites. I do keep her on heartworm preventative year round.

Due to travel in East Asia, I'm vaccinated against typhoid & Japanese encephalitis, in addition to the routine vaccinations - also Hep A & B. I've always wondered what rabidly anti-vaccine people do if they travel to countries where certain non-routine (for the US/most Western countries) vaccinations are strongly recommended & for good reason. There are enough scary tropical diseases that don't have vaccines (like dengue fever), I'll happily take my chances with sore injection sites or an upset stomach for preventable diseases that are endemic to areas I'm visiting. The potential for a visit to a Mainland Chinese emergency room is more than enough of a threat to encourage me towards prophylactic action whenever it seems prudent. :eek:

JSwan
Jan. 2, 2008, 06:02 AM
I guess I don't have a problem, ethically, with anyone who, relying on actual scientific information and veterinary advice, makes a decision not to vaccinate for a given disease. It's the people who think that some magikal fairy source from outer space is going to keep their horses healthy, or those who have read a few kooky articles on the internet and think that constitutes scientific knowledge who I have a problem with. :yes:

Actually, I agree 100%. I don't vaccinate against botulism. I decided against it after speaking with my vet.

Good vaccine to have? You betcha. Have horses died, and continue to die, from botulism? Heck yeah. Where I live? Rare - and usually if fed round bales.

So it's very rare for my area and is only recommended for those horse owners who feed round bales.

Rational, intelligent decision made after doing a risk/benefit analysis.

No tin-foil hats, no Internet experts, and I sure wouldn't rely on the word of some of the folks on this BB.

But rabies? Strangles? WNV? PHF? Flu/rhino? No debate. The risk of a reaction FAR outweighs the benefits. And I have had a horse react to a flu/rhino vaccine. He still gets it.

All this crystal/magnet/homeopathic stuff is all pie in the sky. When a woman feels a lump in their breast - does she get a mammogram or chew kava kava and think happy thoughts?

Some of the folks on this thread don't have the brains God gave a paper bag. Conspiracy theories, dentists, secret conclaves... sounds like a bad sci-fi novel. And for the life of me, I simply cannot believe any reasonable person would believe that doo doo.

AnotherRound
Jan. 2, 2008, 07:10 AM
Are you people out of your ever loving gourds?? I wish I could say it as well as JSwan, but cant - bears repeating, though -

- Some of the folks on this thread don't have the brains God gave a paper bag. Conspiracy theories, dentists, secret conclaves... sounds like a bad sci-fi novel. And for the life of me, I simply cannot believe any reasonable person would believe that doo doo. - JSwan

ETHICS?? I have alot of problems with it. Besides that this is your horse's health you are justifiying playing roulette with, your affecting as well the health of the horses they are exposed to.

I had no idea there were so many dimbulbs on this board. I knew of a few, but so many!

Weatherford
Jan. 2, 2008, 07:44 AM
I admit, I haven't read the whole thread, however, there is a "homeopathy challenge" still standing in the UK which will award a million pounds (or is it 7 million?) to the company/person who can scientifically prove that homeopathy works (double blind studies). It has yet to be picked up. In fact, one study showed the group with the placebo, in fact, did better than the group with homeopathic therapy... (I am sorry, I no longer have the website - fascinating reading however.)

By the way, if your dog is getting heartworm meds regularly, it shouldn't need to be also wormed - heartworm med is ivermectin. Your dog should be checked, however, in case of parasites that ivermectin doesn't get.

Vaccinate. Your. Horses. Especially for RABIES. And all the other US dx's. We do not have as many here in Ireland - but I do vaccinate, though, I know some neighbors don't. :(

caballus
Jan. 2, 2008, 08:54 AM
"Also at the turn of the century, a book was published called The Logic of Figures or Comparative Results of Homeopathic and Other Treatments. This book provides dozens of charts comparing dis-ease and death rates in homeopathic and allopathic hospitals. These included the epidemic dis-eases of scarlet fever, yellow fever, typhoid, etc. The homeopathic hospitals usually had 50 to 80 percent less deaths per 100 people, depending on the dis-ease compared.

Another early double-blind study was sponsored by the British government during World War II. The experiment demonstrated that those patients given homeopathic remedies experiment significant improvement in burns from mustard gas in comparison to those given a placebo. A 1982 review provided further substantiation of the statistical significance of the research.3,4"
"The British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology published a double-blind experiment on patients with rheumatoid arthritis. An impressive 82 percent of those given a homeopathic medicine experienced some relief of symptoms while only 21 percent of those given a placebo experienced any similar degree of improvement. If a conventional drug ever demonstrates the quality results of reducing pain in 82 percent of the rheumatoid arthritis without side effects, it will be major news in all forms of U.S. media.14"

"The majority of these studies were done by non-homeopathic researchers, and published in non-homeopathic research journals. "

Quoted from: http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/13/19/19.html There are a good number of other blind study results listed there, also, with their corresponding references.


Seems to be much from either side of the coin.

deltawave
Jan. 2, 2008, 08:59 AM
Oh, but you know it's not FAIR to require those dang randomized, double-blind studies for such a mystical, "special" practice such as homeopathy. It is ABOVE all of that, you know. Just look at the MILLIONS of people whose tummyaches went away!

I had a long but fun weekend. Kinda slow--only ONE nearly-fatal MI, and this person is going HOME today after being in shock, no blood pressure and horrible pain after the "big one" just on Sunday morning. Prognosis EXCELLENT. Life is good. :) :) :)

JSwan
Jan. 2, 2008, 09:01 AM
World War II?

You mean the same era in which soldiers were purposefully exposed to radiation, black soldiers were experimented on, and everyone knows what was going on in Nazi Germany?

You'll excuse me if I'm a bit underwhelmed by a "study" from WWII. Lots of good medicine came out of that war - backed up by SCIENCE. If homeopathy was going to prove itself - that would have been the time.

It didn't. But we did cure polio. Oddly enough - without the benefit of homeopathy.

Peddle the snake oil elsewhere. And for God's sake, if your horses travel off your property, please stable them far from other horses.

You're just adding fuel to the NAIS argument that every horse has to be tracked from birth to earth.

Lieslot
Jan. 2, 2008, 09:02 AM
Vaccinate. Your. Horses. Especially for RABIES. And all the other US dx's. We do not have as many here in Ireland - but I do vaccinate, though, I know some neighbors don't.

Does Ireland also have the rabies vaccine?
I thought just like England there were no approved rabies vaccines over there?

So what bothers me personally, why does England not approve the rabies vaccine & vaccinate but why is it approved over here.
Same with strangles and same with botulism.
The US seems to approve vaccines really easily and I am not so sure if this is to be considered a good thing or a bad thing :confused:.

GreekDressageQueen
Jan. 2, 2008, 09:23 AM
By the way, if your dog is getting heartworm meds regularly, it shouldn't need to be also wormed - heartworm med is ivermectin. Your dog should be checked, however, in case of parasites that ivermectin doesn't get.

Yes, I give my dogs their Heartguard every month - this is what I mean by worming. I do this religiously because my dogs are also barn dogs and well, they eat a lot of crap. They like to hunt and kill things. My Lab is a better mouser than some cats I know. :lol: You can also give the barn cats some Heartguard (or leftover horse wormer) to prevent tapeworm in particular and some other worms. I don't see anything wrong with that.


Vaccinate. Your. Horses. Especially for RABIES. And all the other US dx's. We do not have as many here in Ireland - but I do vaccinate, though, I know some neighbors don't. :(

My gelding received a tainted shot when he was 2 and developed a heightened sensitivity to vaccinations. He survived but endured 3 days in Purdue's intensive care for very high fevers. We think it was the Potomac Horse Fever vaccine and I stopped giving it to him since we now live in a low risk area. Two years later, he received a rabies shot and he had the same reaction so I no longer give him the rabies shot. I figure I have a greater chance of losing him by giving the shots than by not giving him the shots. But I don't rub tree bark on him and hope it will drive the rabies away. ;) I'm making a conscious decision that I believe is best for that particular horse.

Using holistic or alternative therapies for horses is a good way to supplement their health regime, but I still would grab a tube of banamine in a heartbeat if I thought my horses were colicking or in serious pain. To ridicule those who choose to pursue other therapies is very narrow minded and just ridiculous. I bet the same people who scoff at "holistic" or "homeopathic" therapies are the same people who throw hundreds of dollars a month away on powdered joint supplements. Every vet worth his or her grain of salt as admitted to me the evidence shows that oral joint supplements are not effective. I think the latest studies indicated that more than 75% of the supplement is digested in the stomach and the ingredients left inert, thus, ineffective. Yet people still buy them - how's that for stupid? :yes:

deltawave
Jan. 2, 2008, 09:34 AM
Not me! I ditched the oral joint supplements years ago. Requiring PROOF is very economical.... ;) If there isn't any, I figure my horses (and my own self) are better off without "substance X", be it natural or otherwise. I keep my faith and beliefs separate from the things I put in my body.

GreekDressageQueen
Jan. 2, 2008, 09:35 AM
They [dogs] also get once a week fresh marrowbones and overall a very holistic diet.

After my Lab developed serious allergies to dog kibble as a puppy, based on the advice of my "holistic" friend, I started feeding her raw meat with her kibble and she has never had a problem since! I too feed her fresh marrownones. I think it's funny how we call this a "holistic" diet and we are talking about dogs! Dogs are carnivores - they are designed to eat raw meat! When was the last time you saw a wolf cook his food?

I still have friends and family who think I'm crazy for feeding raw meat to a dog, but seriously she looks like a show dog and everyone comments on her coat, healthy teeth, bright eyes, etc.

Not everything "natural" has to be associated with "holistic" and somehow disregarded as "voodoo." :no:

deltawave
Jan. 2, 2008, 09:38 AM
What cracks me up is the "whole grain, vegetable, etc." diet for CATS, who are obligate carnivores. Dogs, heck, they'll cheerfully eat anything (horse poop bon-bons, anyone?) :lol: but if the cats could read the labels on the yuppie-fied cat food bags they'd probably HEAVE. :lol: Mine prefer rabbit brains. :p

caffeinated
Jan. 2, 2008, 09:59 AM
What cracks me up is the "whole grain, vegetable, etc." diet for CATS, who are obligate carnivores.if the cats could read the labels on the yuppie-fied cat food bags they'd probably HEAVE. :lol: Mine prefer rabbit brains. :p

I switched my cat to canned food recently, and only buy the kinds that use real meats as ingredients (no "meat byproducts" and definitely no wheat gluten and fillers)... it's amazing how much healthier he seems :) It's still not rabbit brains, but it's better than the dry food a previous vet had told me to use :)

Fixerupper
Jan. 2, 2008, 10:00 AM
Does Ireland also have the rabies vaccine?
I thought just like England there were no approved rabies vaccines over there?

So what bothers me personally, why does England not approve the rabies vaccine & vaccinate but why is it approved over here.
Same with strangles and same with botulism.
The US seems to approve vaccines really easily and I am not so sure if this is to be considered a good thing or a bad thing :confused:.

England & Ireland are islands...due to strict quarantine laws they have managed to keep rabies out for over a century. They don't need rabies vaccines.
They do have approved strangles vaccines.

equinelaw
Jan. 2, 2008, 10:19 AM
But of course if you read the posts we have clearly stated again and again that holistic does not=homeopathic.
Homeopathic is not herbs or raw meats. It is nothing in a bottle or pill form. Real stuff can have healing properties. Imagainary stuff? Not so much.

I might try a holistic wormer or even a rolling pin for splints--but I will not try nothing is somethig is wrong.

Anecodtaol, longitiudinal, or corrolational studies are not double blind. If the study does not describe double blind--then it isn't. I dont care what the ttile says. While the drug comapnies are greedy bastards with mostly profits in mind, they would jump on any cure that was 80% effective and required no actual ingredients. Thats a lot of profit. And no side effects? No legal worries either! They aren't stupid. If it worked, they would package and sell it.

If imaginary cures that have been around for 200 years worked, then people wasted a lot of time making anitbotics, vaccines, and dying in droves for nothing. It is just not logical. If they worked, we would have cures and not need more research. You don't fix what aint broke.

If a horse is going to be exposed to lots of other horses and stress, then a flu shot 3-4 months is not unreasonable. Worming too might not need to be very frequent in a closed sterile heard, but more often in a busty barn or a show horse. Of course any animal that shows sesitivities to certain vaccines or drugs should be excused also. Its a balance between safe and sorry. And there is nothing wrong with questioning your vet and asking good questions to come to your own risk benift analysis.

Not vaccinating or treating at all is not a good idea. It puts a greater risk on my horse who now must be vaccinated more often to make sure your horse doesn't carry germs to my neck of the woods.

And if your horse ever gets a reportable disease some place where you will be reported? Check the laws in your state about that. You'd be suprised what they can do with your private property:no:

People can die if they strongly believe in voodo. That doesn't make it real either. Holistic, natural and organic are not voodo. Homeopathy is.

Bluey
Jan. 2, 2008, 10:33 AM
After my Lab developed serious allergies to dog kibble as a puppy, based on the advice of my "holistic" friend, I started feeding her raw meat with her kibble and she has never had a problem since! I too feed her fresh marrownones. I think it's funny how we call this a "holistic" diet and we are talking about dogs! Dogs are carnivores - they are designed to eat raw meat! When was the last time you saw a wolf cook his food?

I still have friends and family who think I'm crazy for feeding raw meat to a dog, but seriously she looks like a show dog and everyone comments on her coat, healthy teeth, bright eyes, etc.

Not everything "natural" has to be associated with "holistic" and somehow disregarded as "voodoo." :no:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

In our dog club, we have one member that is all into the holistic feeding of her dogs, that she breeds.
They are very nice dogs and she talks to anyone, especially new members about all that and how bad regular dog foods are supposed to be and brings "The Whole Dog Journal" up continuously as her bible on dog nutrition.:p

Well, her dogs look dull of coat and attitude, kind of slow and pokey and of poor muscle tone, compared with the sleek athletes the rest of our dogs are, that eath all that poisonous commercial dog food.;)

Not much different than the many discussions on horse nutrition here.:rolleyes:

Ghazzu
Jan. 2, 2008, 10:37 AM
YYou can also give the barn cats some Heartguard (or leftover horse wormer) to prevent tapeworm in particular and some other worms. I don't see anything wrong with that.


I do.
Heartguard (ivermectin)isn't effective for control of tapeworms.

Eclectic Horseman
Jan. 2, 2008, 11:00 AM
I've skimmed all of this thread and was suprised at how few moderates seem to be out there on these issues. Reputable periodicals (The Horse and Horse Journal, to cite two) seem to acknowledge some of the risks of overworming and overvaccinating--but they don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. We do come from a culture where if "some is good, more must be better" and this is not accurate. :no:

Regarding worming, while there is anecdotal evidence of things like daily wormer combined with spot on or other insecticides causing neurological problems-- the major reason not to over worm is RESISTANCE. When all of the wormers that we have are ineffective--what then?

Regarding vaccinations, most of the reasonable approaches that I have seen suggested are to vaccinate only when necessary, less often and not in combination. While immediate effects of frequent vaccinations given in combined formulas are often cited as negatives, these are not common. The bigger worry is the development of auto-immune problems or of immune system compromise. If you test blood from almost any horse that is on a regular rotation of all of the available vaccines, don't be surprised to find a LOW (or so-called 'low normal') white blood cell count. This is the result of frequent stimulation of the immune system--the white blood cells are depleted and the immune system is less efficient.

So is vaccination necessary and desireable? YES, but not as often or as many as vets will advise (it is their 'bread and butter" and they can be a bit dug in on the issue.)

Is worming necessary and desireable? Yes, but not nearly as often as vets will advise and good pasture management practices should be followed.

That's my considered view for what it is worth.

JSwan
Jan. 2, 2008, 11:20 AM
Well you know - there is nothing "holistic" about that. Dogs are supposed to eat meat. Funny how people think there is something new and improved about feeding dogs meat.

You wanna hear something really odd? The same types of folks who espouse all this "natural" mother earth stuff are the same types who would look on in horror at a bunch of hunting dogs eating off a cow carcass.

Yeah - we're supposed to feed them dog food - raw meat just turns them into bloodthirsty killers. Haven't you heard of AR nuts who say just that?

What you're referring to is just plain common sense. Is there value in meditation to lower blood pressure? Sure there is. Is it a substitute for high blood pressure medicine? No

Can it complement more conventional treatment? Of course it can.

What I'm reading on this thread isn't common sense. It's dogma and zealotry. If alternative medicine was able to cure disease..... it had thousands of years to do so. Thousands upon thousands of years in which Man has tried to prevent, treat and cure disease.

The best "natural" medicine could do was help a little; mostly with pain management for terminal illness. People still went mad, limbs were still hacked off, and millions upon millions died of disease. Animals too.

Conventional/Western medicine may not be perfect. And there is no doubt that the role of nutrition, emotional support, spiritual support have been overlooked or denigrating by many physicians. Though that appears to be changing.

As far as animals go - yeah - a small herd with a good management program may not need to be wormed as frequently as a big boarding barn or more confined feeding.

Again - common sense. That's all.

A retired old horse living out its life in a pasture with goat may not need the strangles vaccine; particularly if the owner does not go to other stables.

Common sense.

Horses that mingle with other horses and shows, trail rides, or travels a lot - not vaccinating is irresponsible and dangerous; and it can devastate a population and cause enormous economic loss. I really don't care what a person thinks about their widdle pookums getting a widdle shot from the mean old vet. If the horse can handle the vaccines - get them.

Eclectic Horseman - actually there are a few moderate voices on this thread. I'm one of them. Another Round is.... well... another. Ghazzu. Deltawave.

No one is saying that every horse has to be wormed on a rigid program and every horse has to have every vaccine period no discussion. But few of the posters seem to be using their own brain - they're hanging up on the word of wacko's spouting off about conspiracies.

If I had to hang my hat on something - it would be the educated opinion of a qualified veterinarian.

Of course - folks aren't going to believe herd eradication could happen to their horses. Nor could a state mandated quarantine.

Guess we'll find out.




After my Lab developed serious allergies to dog kibble as a puppy, based on the advice of my "holistic" friend, I started feeding her raw meat with her kibble and she has never had a problem since! I too feed her fresh marrownones. I think it's funny how we call this a "holistic" diet and we are talking about dogs! Dogs are carnivores - they are designed to eat raw meat! When was the last time you saw a wolf cook his food?

I still have friends and family who think I'm crazy for feeding raw meat to a dog, but seriously she looks like a show dog and everyone comments on her coat, healthy teeth, bright eyes, etc.

Not everything "natural" has to be associated with "holistic" and somehow disregarded as "voodoo." :no:

akor
Jan. 2, 2008, 12:19 PM
I'm struggling with the whole vaccine thing. One of my beasts, after a prolonged incident that is not really for a public BB, developed what I would call "bad" reactions to ANY injection. And, a bad attitude about getting an injection (but not about the draw for Coggins, so it's very IM specific in her mind) I'm worried that one time, one is going to take her out or set me back another 4 figure vet bill.

So, for this year, I'm going to take her to the vet, have her in the stocks, have them tranq her (yes, I know that has risk too) so her neck isn't so tense or have them inject in another body part and do as little as possible.

It's hard when you don't have the knowledge to make good decisions and "everyone else" does x.....I will be doing much more research this year on what the must haves are.

caballus
Jan. 2, 2008, 12:25 PM
What you're referring to is just plain common sense. Is there value in meditation to lower blood pressure? Sure there is. Is it a substitute for high blood pressure medicine? No

Can it complement more conventional treatment? Of course it can.

What I'm reading on this thread isn't common sense. It's dogma and zealotry ...
Dogma and zealotry ... there have been a couple of posts by people who, for personal reasons (horses reactions, older, sick) choose not to vaccinate. I simply stated my own personal experiences with vaccines giving neither opinion nor stating my feelings about them. Where are you reading the dogma and the zealotry? Has anyone here called conventional medicine evil? Has anyone here said to avoid conventional medicine - don't call your Vet or Dr. for advice? I don't think so. The discussion/debate has been on whether or not regular vaccinations are necessary/safe and then we got into Homeopathy is a viable means of treatment. I and a few others have posted informational and educational sites as well as research results. If forums all posted sweet and nice singular views of topics then they wouldn't BE discussion boards. I don't think anyone has done the dogma and zealot thing. And in saying this and coming on strong against Hom. along with the "voodoo" comments, are you not being dogmatic and zealous as well? *grin*


Of course - folks aren't going to believe herd eradication could happen to their horses. Nor could a state mandated quarantine.

Guess we'll find out. Unfortunately I believe you're correct in this. Why HORSES are included in NAIS I have no idea. And please, don't go telling me about disease control, yadi, yadi, yadi ... NAIS is SUPPOSED to be about controlling diseases in our LIVESTOCK - those animals which we use for FOOD. Actually, when first publicized, it was done with the Bird Flu and Mad Cow examples as the terrorist topics. Those were de-bunked along the way and now they've got something else. Haven't read about it for awhile cause I got so fed up with it. Bottom line ... I know here in Massachusetts horses are considered recreational/personal property; NOT livestock. I paid plenty of personal property taxes on my horses over the years as recreational "property". But now, cause it'll be more $$$, horses are being considered agricultural livestock. It's all BS .. and yeah, there are greater motives to this program than what meets the public eye. But that's for another topic entirely.

WildBlue
Jan. 2, 2008, 12:26 PM
It's hard when you don't have the knowledge to make good decisions and "everyone else" does x.....I will be doing much more research this year on what the must haves are.

A good vet should be very willing to discuss the pros and cons of every offered vaccine for your particular case and region. Mine's great--and readily discusses effectiveness and risk. With that information, I was able to go from "what everyone else does" to a much more tailored approach.

caballus
Jan. 2, 2008, 12:30 PM
I'm struggling with the whole vaccine thing. One of my beasts, after a prolonged incident that is not really for a public BB, developed what I would call "bad" reactions to ANY injection. And, a bad attitude about getting an injection (but not about the draw for Coggins, ... [/ QUOTE]

Now this is something else that puzzles me. One can have blood drawn for a Coggins but since EIA is caused by bloodsucking insects, no sooner can the vial be taken away that the same horse can be bitten by an insect carrying EIA! So what does the blood test really prove? Only that for that time that the blood was drawn the horse was not carrying EIA. When was the last recorded instance of EIA anyway and where? Anyone know?

[quote]I was able to go from "what everyone else does" to a much more tailored approach.
As well it *should* be ... :)

Ghazzu
Jan. 2, 2008, 12:39 PM
I believe Texas topped the list of EIA cases in the last year, with 38 positives.
There have been positive horses in a number of other states as well.

It's rather disingenuous to sniff at the low rate of positive horses as a way of implying that Coggins testing is irrelevant or ineffective, as the *reason* the number of cases is low is the testing and eradication program in the first place.

There's been a consistent downwards trend in EIA since the Coggins test was developed.

caballus
Jan. 2, 2008, 12:58 PM
How the written word does NOT convey true meanings ... I was not "sniffing" at anything. I am "puzzled" as I said. My last conversation about EIA was with the Director of the Farm Bureau a number of years ago who said it had been 20+ years since we had any here in MA so I was curious to know how many and where? You're from MA ... any idea, Ghazzu?

deltawave
Jan. 2, 2008, 01:16 PM
Where are you reading the dogma and the zealotry? Has anyone here called conventional medicine evil?

Pretty much. Check out the first few pages. :)

Ghazzu
Jan. 2, 2008, 01:33 PM
My last conversation about EIA was with the Director of the Farm Bureau a number of years ago who said it had been 20+ years since we had any here in MA so I was curious to know how many and where? You're from MA ... any idea, Ghazzu?

There was a positive horse in MA in 2006.

JSwan
Jan. 2, 2008, 01:42 PM
Virginia has a few cases every year. But that's only in the equine population that gets tested, of course.

ASB Stars
Jan. 2, 2008, 01:50 PM
I admit to not having read this entire thread, because it usually gets reduced to major conflagration when this stuff comes up- but here is my question- does anyone here titer their horse, prior to innoculating them? Does anyone know why titering is apparently fairly expensive?

My Vet agrees that we over-immunize, however, he figures it is the lesser of two evils. My question is, if there was a cost effective way to titer, would that be a smarter path for the horses over all health?

And JSwan, here's your sign... :lol:

deltawave
Jan. 2, 2008, 01:57 PM
Running titers is a fairly elaborate (ergo, pricey) bit of lab work. Running titers for several communicable diseases is REALLY pricey. And just how often do we need to run titers? Yearly? Every 3 months? Every 2 years? WHO KNOWS? Is a weakly positive titer "good enough"? Is a strongly positive titer always protective? WHO KNOWS?

Titers are good general guidelines but are FAR from precise "yes/no" indicators of immunity. They take a long time to run, require blood draws and proper handling...in all honesty, you would be doing a good job only with the VERY fastidious, willing, and super-vigilant horse owners out there. For the "masses" it is probably easier and just as reasonable to go with SIMPLE, YEARLY, IM injections. You cover more animals that way and keep up that herd immunity.

JSwan
Jan. 2, 2008, 02:02 PM
Unfortunately I believe you're correct in this. Why HORSES are included in NAIS I have no idea. And please, don't go telling me about disease control, yadi, yadi, yadi ... NAIS is SUPPOSED to be about controlling diseases in our LIVESTOCK - those animals which we use for FOOD. Actually, when first publicized, it was done with the Bird Flu and Mad Cow examples as the terrorist topics. Those were de-bunked along the way and now they've got something else. Haven't read about it for awhile cause I got so fed up with it. Bottom line ... I know here in Massachusetts horses are considered recreational/personal property; NOT livestock. I paid plenty of personal property taxes on my horses over the years as recreational "property". But now, cause it'll be more $$$, horses are being considered agricultural livestock. It's all BS .. and yeah, there are greater motives to this program than what meets the public eye. But that's for another topic entirely.

Well, your jurisdictions classification of personal/recreational property does not preclude an animal being also legally classified as livestock. NAIS is federal; how a state taxes or doesn't tax the animals within state boundaries is not relevant. I have a pet Duroc barrow; the fact I treat him as a pet does not mean he is automatically removed from the ag status - he's a pig. But he's also a pet. He's a pet that also tastes delicious.

Microchipping and tracking are not only being mandated in livestock, anyway. Many states are starting to required pets to be chipped too. And it isn't for the animals welfare. NAIS is its own boondoggle, but the pet/livestock argument shouldn't apply.

Another NAIS myth is that it's supposed to control disease. Controlling disease is done by VACCINATING. Since nothing is perfect, and we can't catch everyone who doesn't vaccinate, or can't stop new and emerging diseases, we have to have plans to stop the spread of disease in the event of an outbreak. Residents of my state got a little taste of that last February. Just a couple of sick horses resulted in huge economic losses; as well as some people really panicking (for no reason but the rumor mill was alive and well)

The entire concept of stopping the spread of disease is to quickly identify and contain the source - and quarantine any animals exposed. Nothing can stop disease from happening. Even if we vaccinate. But hells bells - it's a darn good start - and it's proven to work.

The best defense to making sure your horse, or any other animal in your care, doesn't end up being shot and burned - is to vaccinate for the illnesses prevalent in your area, and what the animal can stand.

Whether or not the animal is included in NAIS, or your states versions of NAIS for pets, really shouldn't matter.

NAIS is about money - no doubt about that. Whether or not that was the original intent - I don't know. The originals plans I read were all about identifying contagion and stopped its spread. While it has turned into another government boondoggle - the premise is sound - and was already in practice at the state level long before NAIS was even thought of.

SGray
Jan. 2, 2008, 02:07 PM
hey guys - I heard that MistyBlue said that Ron Popeil's 'set it and forget it' rotisserie grill cures cancer but then Ghazzu said that there's too much lead in it

Eclectic Horseman
Jan. 2, 2008, 02:10 PM
Running titers is a fairly elaborate (ergo, pricey) bit of lab work. Running titers for several communicable diseases is REALLY pricey. And just how often do we need to run titers? Yearly? Every 3 months? Every 2 years? WHO KNOWS? Is a weakly positive titer "good enough"? Is a strongly positive titer always protective? WHO KNOWS?

Titers are good general guidelines but are FAR from precise "yes/no" indicators of immunity. They take a long time to run, require blood draws and proper handling...in all honesty, you would be doing a good job only with the VERY fastidious, willing, and super-vigilant horse owners out there. For the "masses" it is probably easier and just as reasonable to go with SIMPLE, YEARLY, IM injections. You cover more animals that way and keep up that herd immunity.

An owner that I was training for did them on her herd of 4 after her eldest (25) had a near fatal reaction to fall shots. The results are not unequivocal--i.e., how much titer is enough, but they did show surprising results. The youngest, who was a 3 year old gelding, had never had a vaccination after his foal year shots and he showed a decent level of immunity to everything, including rabies.

Horse Journal published some general guidelines a few years back, and it showed which vaccinations you might be able to skip altogether in certain circumstances and others in which giving them only every 18 months conveyed substantial immunity.

JSwan
Jan. 2, 2008, 02:10 PM
:lol::lol::lol:


hey guys - I heard that MistyBlue said that Ron Popeil's 'set it and forget it' rotisserie grill cures cancer but then Ghazzu said that there's too much lead in it

You gonna believe anything that girl says? She's got a vulture named Morticia that she's trained to attack visitors.

deltawave
Jan. 2, 2008, 02:17 PM
I think it's entirely reasonable to use titers as a means of decision-making with horses that have had PROVEN adverse reactions to vaccines. In these cases, the titres fill a niche and help to answer a question: "which is safer for THIS HORSE?". But as an across-the-board means of controlling infectious diseases, no. No blood test can protect a horse like a vaccination can. :)

Eclectic Horseman
Jan. 2, 2008, 02:20 PM
I think it's entirely reasonable to use titers as a means of decision-making with horses that have had PROVEN adverse reactions to vaccines. In these cases, the titres fill a niche and help to answer a question: "which is safer for THIS HORSE?". But as an across-the-board means of controlling infectious diseases, no. No blood test can protect a horse like a vaccination can. :)

Yes, that is undisputed. But I think if more people did titers--or if there were more studies done on the duration of the protection offered by vaccines--then we might have a more educated general rule on how often to give the vaccines. If I am not mistaken "annual" shots is just arbitrary. Wouldn't it be nice to know if 18 months or 2 years was all that was really necessary?

millerra
Jan. 2, 2008, 02:23 PM
Nanoscience ... nanoscience. Sounds like something from Mork and Mindy's show (what was that?) but its a legit science. Homeopathy would fall under that along with quantum physics and quantum science, I believe. It goes beyond Avagadro's "theory" ...

Ummm, whoa. :eek: Really.

Can't say any more that couldn't be construed as patronizing or rude.

caballus
Jan. 2, 2008, 02:26 PM
The youngest, who was a 3 year old gelding, had never had a vaccination after his foal year shots and he showed a decent level of immunity to everything, including rabies.
Am I mistaken or isn't this what the immune system is supposed to do? The animal will get immunities from its mother as well as from the environment. If the immune system is in working order then as the animal is exposed to the different pathogens then the immune system will build up an immunity to that particular bug?

Lieslot
Jan. 2, 2008, 02:33 PM
If I am not mistaken "annual" shots is just arbitrary. Wouldn't it be nice to know if 18 months or 2 years was all that was really necessary?
I so agree with you. I am really in with those, YES, one should vaccinate, but this 6-monthly 'adviced' vaccination, seems a lot to me.
Horse Journal published some general guidelines a few years back, and it showed which vaccinations you might be able to skip altogether in certain circumstances and others in which giving them only every 18 months conveyed substantial immunity.
Anyway of getting my hands on this article. Anyone has a copy of this or can I find it back online. Thanks!:)

Eclectic Horseman
Jan. 2, 2008, 02:34 PM
Am I mistaken or isn't this what the immune system is supposed to do? The animal will get immunities from its mother as well as from the environment. If the immune system is in working order then as the animal is exposed to the different pathogens then the immune system will build up an immunity to that particular bug?

Titers show immunity to specific diseases based on levels of anti-bodies in the blood. This could be from natural causes, such as exposure-- but I think we would know it if this horse was exposed to rabies. :lol::lol: He was weaned at 4 months, and I'm quite certain that anti-bodies from colostrum would not last so long. Even they did, it would be quite a stretch that the dam's vaccinations would be passed to the foal--the dam was not exposed to rabies naturally either.

MistyBlue
Jan. 2, 2008, 02:36 PM
You gonna believe anything that girl says? She's got a vulture named Morticia that she's trained to attack visitors.
Now now...she only 'attacks' if visitors are carrying food...especially if it was cooked in the rotisserie. :winkgrin:

Eclectic Horseman
Jan. 2, 2008, 02:39 PM
I so agree with you. I am really in with those, YES, one should vaccinate, but this 6-monthly 'adviced' vaccination, seems a lot to me.
Anyway of getting my hands on this article. Anyone has a copy of this or can I find it back online. Thanks!:)

You should be able to find them online at http://www.horse-journal.com by doing a search on the word "vaccinations."

millerra
Jan. 2, 2008, 02:39 PM
I personally wouldn't want my horses to develop a immunity to rabies from any thing other than a rabies vaccine. Any other way and they are on their way to being dead. Same goes for tetanus, sleeping sickness, etc. That, in a nutshell, is why I personally vaccinate. My horses, my choice.

equinelaw
Jan. 2, 2008, 02:41 PM
Yes, you are mistaken. The 3 yr old had its shots. Animals can still get sick and die when exposed to an infectious agent. The immune sysytem is supposed to protect some animals from some things that are common in their environemnt. It can't protect against all thinsg or new thinsg very well and it ofetn works after exposure and illness--saving the animals life--but not before the animal is sick and in danger.

Animals cannot fight off many of the things we vaccinate against. Most animals are suppsed to die or ther will be too many of them. A few will be born with a mutation that make sthen immune while most other animal sdie aorund them from a new desease. That animal will them pass on its immunity and it genes until most of the new population is also immune. The population, as whole, does OK, but any individual animal may not do OK.

Its called survival of the fittest and when you skipped all those classes on evolution you missed all this too.

We want all our animal to survive with long, useful lives. I do not want evolution working amoung my herd.

This is why less then 500 men could conquer a new continent--no immunities to european germs even amoung healthy populations. This is why chestnut trees all die of blight and why new and somewhat unproven and risky vaccines must be used for new threats. They have no natural immunities to those deseases.

Nature sucks and we work hard to protect our horses from natural selection.

JSwan
Jan. 2, 2008, 02:46 PM
Now now...she only 'attacks' if visitors are carrying food...especially if it was cooked in the rotisserie. :winkgrin:

:lol::lol::lol:Kevin does the same thing. I guess some folks would find a 400lb hog running full tilt towards them, grunting and squealing, mighty distressing.

Last I heard, there was no rabies vaccine for swine. Since he does salivate a lot, particularly when he's hungry and running towards you........ I guess that's another reason my first indication we have a visitor is when I hear someone screaming. :D

Ghazzu
Jan. 2, 2008, 02:56 PM
He was weaned at 4 months, and I'm quite certain that anti-bodies from colostrum would not last so long. Even they did, it would be quite a stretch that the dam's vaccinations would be passed to the foal--the dam was not exposed to rabies naturally either.

No stretch at all to think that the dam's immunity generated by vaccination would be passed along in the colostrum--that's exactly what it does.

As for DOI from passive transfer, it would be declining sharply by 4 months, but *might* still be measurable. (Not referring to your example, just in general.)

Eclectic Horseman
Jan. 2, 2008, 03:00 PM
No stretch at all to think that the dam's immunity generated by vaccination would be passed along in the colostrum--that's exactly what it does.

As for DOI from passive transfer, it would be declining sharply by 4 months, but *might* still be measurable. (Not referring to your example, just in general.)

Well, the titers on this horse were taken when he was 3 years old. He HAD his foal shots during his first year. What I was trying to say was that I doubt sincerely that if he had not had his vaccinations that he would have any immunity to rabies as a 3 year old. No way would a passive transfer last that long!

caballus
Jan. 2, 2008, 03:01 PM
Titers show immunity to specific diseases based on levels of anti-bodies in the blood. This could be from natural causes, such as exposure-- but I think we would know it if this horse was exposed to rabies. :lol::lol: He was weaned at 4 months, and I'm quite certain that anti-bodies from colostrum would not last so long. Even they did, it would be quite a stretch that the dam's vaccinations would be passed to the foal--the dam was not exposed to rabies naturally either. Wasn't rabies part of his foal shots, though, that you said he received?

MistyBlue
Jan. 2, 2008, 03:02 PM
JSwan...:lol:


As for the Flood being a historical event or not - can you PROVE the 'science' of "Evolution"? No - evolution is a *theory*. Can't be proven. If evolution is a science then why are there still chimpanzees and gorillas in our midst?
The Flood would have left massive and obvious physical markers on the planet...there aren't any. Also, it's an impossibility to load every species of animal on the planet into a boat since there are more than 30 million species of life on this planet. So if only the animals of that region were loaded onto the boat...then where did the rest of them come from after the flood?
...not to mention that a boat even half the size of the Titanic isn't possible to be built out of wood alone...not one that would stay sea-worthy for more than a week since it's own massive weight would warp the wood and it would no longer be water-tight. It would sink.
People back then writing the stories had no idea of the size of this planet and the life that was on it in areas that had not yet developed the written communication yet. The stories were written as a way to tell people what would happen if they didn't live by that religion...there is absolutely no basis for it being true.
Evolution...how else do we explain the earth being populated by land animals considering it was covered in water for so many millenia? Land animals did not just appear...they evolved from sea animals. Some evolved fully into land animals, some never evolved at all (sharks/crocodiles) and some evolved halfway. (seals, whales, dolphins)
Just because we may have evolved from apelike animals does not mean that all apelike animals evolved at the same rate. Evolution takes eons...all the while we'll be living side by side with animals in different stages of evolution from us. If all other animals evolved...why is that us human mammals are somehow different?
And one can believe in religion and evolution. After all...one starts out with Adam and Eve...who gave birth to Cain and Abel. Cain killed Abel and then left and married a woman from the land of Nod. Either she was an alien...or she evolved. :winkgrin:

Eclectic Horseman
Jan. 2, 2008, 03:03 PM
Wasn't rabies part of his foal shots, though, that you said he received?

YES. The point that I was trying to make in my original post was that he still had substantial immunity from his foal shots (including rabies) two years after he received them. What I learned from the titers was that we may not need to give vaccinations so often.

It seems as though you were previously suggesting that the vaccinations were irrelevant and that he may have had a titer from exposure or from nursing which I believe is ridiculous. I believe that vaccinations are necessary and desireable, but that there can be too much of a good thing.

deltawave
Jan. 2, 2008, 03:08 PM
Well, passive immunity from colostrum isn't permanent, and animals (as far as I know) do not develop "immunity" to things like rabies from exposure. You get rabies, you die. It's at least plausible that an animal could be exposed to the rabies virus and not become infected, thereby developing true immunity outside of a vaccination but HIGHLY unlikely. The more simple the pathogen, the more virulent and the "cleaner" the immune response. Which is why things like EPM (very complex pathogen) are difficult to diagnose AND vaccinate against.

TwoArabs
Jan. 2, 2008, 03:22 PM
One of my horses had a reaction to his rabies shot this fall. He has had this shot every year for the past 18 years. I will have his tested next year, and if needed he will be vaccinated again. I have a friend who is a total holistic and homeopatihic fanatic. Her hose has moe poblems from hay allergiies to heaves. Yet she continues to preach to me how I'm killing my two perfectly healthy 20 year olds with Purina feed and regular vaccinations.

JSwan
Jan. 2, 2008, 03:23 PM
JSwan...:lol:


The Flood would have left massive and obvious physical markers on the planet...there aren't any. Also, it's an impossibility to load every species of animal on the planet into a boat since there are more than 30 million species of life on this planet. So if only the animals of that region were loaded onto the boat...then where did the rest of them come from after the flood?
...not to mention that a boat even half the size of the Titanic isn't possible to be built out of wood alone...not one that would stay sea-worthy for more than a week since it's own massive weight would warp the wood and it would no longer be water-tight. It would sink.
People back then writing the stories had no idea of the size of this planet and the life that was on it in areas that had not yet developed the written communication yet. The stories were written as a way to tell people what would happen if they didn't live by that religion...there is absolutely no basis for it being true.
Evolution...how else do we explain the earth being populated by land animals considering it was covered in water for so many millenia? Land animals did not just appear...they evolved from sea animals. Some evolved fully into land animals, some never evolved at all (sharks/crocodiles) and some evolved halfway. (seals, whales, dolphins)
Just because we may have evolved from apelike animals does not mean that all apelike animals evolved at the same rate. Evolution takes eons...all the while we'll be living side by side with animals in different stages of evolution from us. If all other animals evolved...why is that us human mammals are somehow different?
And one can believe in religion and evolution. After all...one starts out with Adam and Eve...who gave birth to Cain and Abel. Cain killed Abel and then left and married a woman from the land of Nod. Either she was an alien...or she evolved. :winkgrin:

You know - the guy you need to talk to about this land of Nod thing is the Hahvad dentist guru guy mentioned on another page of this thread. I strongly suspect the land of Nod is really Area 51. You know - it was East of Eden, so it works out.

I think. :confused:

I'm going with space aliens, myself. It explains Michael Jackson.

deltawave
Jan. 2, 2008, 03:28 PM
TwoArabs, it is practically axiomatic in human medicine that the people who use the most "natural remedies" have the poorest estimation of their overall health. It's a curious "chicken or egg" question. Does poor perception of one's well-being drive one to try ANYTHING to feel better? If these remedies work so well, why do these people feel so poorly?

SGray
Jan. 2, 2008, 03:49 PM
.....Last I heard, there was no rabies vaccine for swine. Since he does salivate a lot, particularly when he's hungry and running towards you........ I guess that's another reason my first indication we have a visitor is when I hear someone screaming. :D

quick, yell to the visitor to drop the lead-stuffed rotisserie roast before the rabid hog and the trained vulture attack

Rebe
Jan. 2, 2008, 04:14 PM
can you PROVE the 'science' of "Evolution"? No - evolution is a *theory*. Can't be proven.


I thought I'd just help out with a few more of those pesky "unprovable" theories - and yep, these are all THEORIES, not LAWS:

Classical mechanics (yup, the Newtonian stuff)
Electromagnetism (just try flipping a light switch)
Fluid dynamics (do you trust the hydraulics in that plane?)
General relativity AND Special relativity (argue with Einstein, anyone?)
Quantum mechanics (can you say, "Chernobyl?")
Conservation of energy (just ask the gelding I sold...)
and my personal favorite -
Game Theory (awright, it's just a form of Economics)

deltawave
Jan. 2, 2008, 04:43 PM
Insisting that the "theory of evolution" is "unprovable" is the kind of third-grade rebuttal the Intelligent Designers pass out. :rolleyes: Gravity is also a "theory". The Intelligent Designers are trying to jam the "softer" definition of a theory down everyone's throat so they can insist it isn't "provable". Maybe if they spent more time READING science books instead of burning them... :lol:

GreekDressageQueen
Jan. 2, 2008, 04:59 PM
Heartguard (ivermectin)isn't effective for control of tapeworms.

Is that also true for cats? I was at a barn several years ago where one of the barn cats had a bad case of tapeworms and the vet told me to give him some horse wormer (Ivermectin) when I asked about it. I didn't own a dog back then so I'm not sure if Heartguard was around. It wasn't my cat but I told the BO about it. I think she gave the poor cat a squirt of horse wormer and the tapeworms cleared up in a few weeks. Maybe she used a different kind of wormer... :)

Thomas_1
Jan. 2, 2008, 05:20 PM
Does Ireland also have the rabies vaccine?
I thought just like England there were no approved rabies vaccines over there?

So what bothers me personally, why does England not approve the rabies vaccine & vaccinate but why is it approved over here.
Same with strangles and same with botulism.
The US seems to approve vaccines really easily and I am not so sure if this is to be considered a good thing or a bad thing :confused:.

Its not so much that we don't have a rabies vaccine. Rather rabies does not pose a risk on our small island and because there is no rabies.

Strangles vaccination does not pass our pharmaceutical licencing laws. I posted on that earlier. And hence we manage strangles risk with quarantine.

Don't forget though we have better ability to track movement of horses with passports and identification etc.

Thomas_1
Jan. 2, 2008, 05:42 PM
I can't speak for Thomas1 either, but one would assume since he has lukemia he has "staked his life" on whether hocas pocas homeopathey works or not. You don't speak for me. But by heck, you didn't do a bad job! ;)


Homeopathy and "natural cures" are not the same thing. I am actually quite "in to" natural and herbal treatments and we use a heck of a lot of those in the family, for the dogs and horses.

Likewise I'm an advocate for taking an holistic approach to treatment. I know a lot of folks think it means alternative, but I use the original definition of the word and hence it means considering the whole being and everything rather than just addressing symptoms. So in other words looking at everything and removing root cause . I'm also all for keeping diet relatively natural - or at least to knowing what's in it and ensuring good quality - and again for myself, the dogs, cats, cattle, sheep and the horses.

So our dogs eat meat and plain wholemeal biscuit, the horses have a heck of a lot of forage and when they have supplementary hard feed its all home grown organic grain and vegetables.

Ghazzu
Jan. 2, 2008, 06:22 PM
Is that also true for cats? I was at a barn several years ago where one of the barn cats had a bad case of tapeworms and the vet told me to give him some horse wormer (Ivermectin) when I asked about it. I didn't own a dog back then so I'm not sure if Heartguard was around. It wasn't my cat but I told the BO about it. I think she gave the poor cat a squirt of horse wormer and the tapeworms cleared up in a few weeks. Maybe she used a different kind of wormer... :)

Not only is it true for cats, it is all too easy to fatally overdose cats by attempting to use the equine formulation of ivermectin.

CatOnLap
Jan. 2, 2008, 06:32 PM
yeah holy cow, Greek! You have to weigh cats before you worm them and figure out the milligram doseage! They are far more prone to poisoning from this than horses are. Our vets won't even dispense the stuff without weighing the cats.

Simkie
Jan. 2, 2008, 06:37 PM
Is that also true for cats? I was at a barn several years ago where one of the barn cats had a bad case of tapeworms and the vet told me to give him some horse wormer (Ivermectin) when I asked about it. I didn't own a dog back then so I'm not sure if Heartguard was around. It wasn't my cat but I told the BO about it. I think she gave the poor cat a squirt of horse wormer and the tapeworms cleared up in a few weeks. Maybe she used a different kind of wormer... :)

:eek:

Droncit (praziquantel) for dogs and cats. Ivermectin doesn't get canine/feline tapes!

Lookout
Jan. 2, 2008, 07:07 PM
I admit to not having read this entire thread, because it usually gets reduced to major conflagration when this stuff comes up- but here is my question- does anyone here titer their horse, prior to innoculating them? Does anyone know why titering is apparently fairly expensive?

I asked my vet to do titers this year for my horse for rabies, who has had the shot many, many times. He said in particular with rabies titers was not a useful tool, because of the way the vaccine conferred immunity (cellular?), it would not show up on titers. IOW, there is no way to know according to any test that a horse has any immunity to rabies, even right after you know a shot has been administered. So I have to ask, how do we know it's actually doing anything?

Bluey
Jan. 2, 2008, 07:13 PM
I asked my vet to do titers this year for my horse for rabies, who has had the shot many, many times. He said in particular with rabies titers was not a useful tool, because of the way the vaccine conferred immunity (cellular?), it would not show up on titers. IOW, there is no way to know according to any test that a horse has any immunity to rabies, even right after you know a shot has been administered. So I have to ask, how do we know it's actually doing anything?

As already mentioned, titers are only one not very accurate way to measure how one part of the immune system responded to a challenge, be it thru vaccine or exposure.
There is no real statistical significance with how the individual will respond to a challenge by the numbers measured. It takes more than the number of certain immune system cells to mount the proper defense.

Our small and large animal vets don't put much count on titers to tell them anything, when it comes to vaccinating healthy animals without known problems with vaccines.

They will run titers if a client just insist, but they explain it doesn't really mean much.
Some clients still insist, because they read somewhere that is what you need to do.;)
Running titers won't hurt anything but your pocketbook, so why not.:winkgrin:

Lookout
Jan. 2, 2008, 07:18 PM
As already mentioned, titers are only one not very accurate way to measure how one part of the immune system responded to a challenge, be it thru vaccine or exposure.
There is no real statistical significance with how the individual will respond to a challenge by the numbers measured. It takes more than the number of certain immune system cells to mount the proper defense.

Our small and large animal vets don't put much count on titers to tell them anything, when it comes to vaccinating healthy animals without known problems with vaccines.

They will run titers if a client just insist, but they explain it doesn't really mean much.
Some clients still insist, because they read somewhere that is what you need to do.;)
Running titers won't hurt anything but your pocketbook, so why not.:winkgrin:

As already mentioned, the point and conversation was specifically in reference to rabies which (supposedly) cannot be measured in a titer - because of the way the vaccine confers immunity - as compared to other vaccines, which can.

Lieslot
Jan. 2, 2008, 07:18 PM
I asked my vet to do titers this year for my horse for rabies, who has had the shot many, many times. He said in particular with rabies titers was not a useful tool, because of the way the vaccine conferred immunity (cellular?), it would not show up on titers. IOW, there is no way to know according to any test that a horse has any immunity to rabies, even right after you know a shot has been administered. So I have to ask, how do we know it's actually doing anything? Yeah, good question.
I'd love to titer too, but same here, my vets say they have no guidelines to go by to tell me whether protective titer or not :(.

Anyway just read a horse in Upper Freehold, NJ is being quarantained for 45 days after a bite from a rabid raccoon in pasture. The horse was vaccinated for rabies last June (or July can't remember) so it'll be interesting to see the outcome of this. Let's hope the horse will be fine!!

Lookout
Jan. 2, 2008, 07:28 PM
ReallY? You mean, they found the raccoon, and processed it and everything? We have had some similar reports in Northern NJ (where I am) of cows in pastures being bitten but again not clear on how they actually figured that out.
Did you see this in the paper or word of mouth (Looking to read the article).

blackstallion
Jan. 2, 2008, 07:32 PM
I can't answer the horse rabies titer question, but I can tell you titers are used for humans who have had pre-exposure rabies treatment to determine if a booster is needed to maintain pre-exposure protection. (you still get boosters after an exposure regardless of titer level) Our titers at work are tested every 2 years. My titer is still strong from the initial rabies vaccinations taken in 1996.

Another aspect not brought up, regarding rabies vaccinations especially is that dogs and cats are required to have veterinary administered boosters by law in many states. If you don't have proof of current rabies vaccination when your dog or cat is exposed to a rabid animal, it's too late for titers or boosters. The animal will more than likely be ordered euthanized. Livestock is generally allowed to be sold straight to slaughter or quarantined anywhere from 45 days to 6 months depending upon the state. If you don't believe your animals/pets are your first line of defense against rabies, come spend some time with me at the health department. Most everyone in our area has a rabid animal story to tell - either they were attacked or their pet was attacked, or someone in their family had to take shots. If you don't live in a rabies endemic area, consider your self very fortunate! Only a few years ago a horse at a barrel racing competition in Delaware died of rabies. Numerous people and horses from multiple states were exposed. Some more food for thought.

I know EHV vaccinations have become a new requirement in our area too, and I believe they want veterinary proof of a EHV (rhino) vac within the last 3 months at shows, tracks, etc. Not a state law, but I just wanted to point out that in some circumstances you have to provide the proof of vaccination and in general titers, holistic, herbal, and whatnot are not accepted in lieu of a veterinary certificate.

deltawave
Jan. 2, 2008, 08:29 PM
Rabies titers are used ALL THE TIME. Yes, there is cellular-mediated (T-cell) immunity to rabies, but there is also a VIGOROUS humoral (antibody) immunity that is induced by the vaccine. It is very difficult to measure cellular immunity, but humoral immunity IS what is being assessed with a titer.