So, you go to the barn, and your horse is colicking...what do YOU do? [Archive]

Freebird!

Dec. 29, 2007, 06:46 PM

BuddyRoo

Dec. 29, 2007, 06:50 PM

Me:

I get stats:
-heart rate
-resp
-temp
-horse down and thrashing? horse calm?

If horse is thrashing, I get 'em up while I get vet on phone.

If horse is lying down not thrashing, I leave them. Call vet.

If vet approves, I give banamine and watch/wait.

Remove food from stall, water avail.

Else (like if horse is thrashing) I have vet out.

I've been really blessed--only one colic of MY horses in 25+ years...and was due to dehydration. No vet visit needed. just some banamine.

ThoroughbredFancy

Dec. 29, 2007, 06:54 PM

My horse had bad gas colic a few months ago with a partial twist of the cecum that he actually came out of fine.

I walked him when he would try to role or paw like he was going to lay down. Water was avail. I kept an eye on his heart rate and such. I did let him stand if he wasn't thrashing or anything. I did call the vet who came out and did some procedures and mineral oil. and some type of IV. He did give me Banamine (sp?) as well and I kept an eye on him all night he seemed fine. And a few hours later still fine and then fully recovered but I still had the vet come back the next day to double check.

Tollriffic

Dec. 29, 2007, 06:55 PM

I usually give banamine and turn them out in the ring or get them walking. If they seem mildly uncomfortable I give them awhile before calling the vet but if they're in alot of discomfort and there's no improvement in a relatively short period of time they're on the trailer to the vets. I lost one to colic despite going to surgery and think its worth going to the clinic if there's any doubt.

shawneeAcres

Dec. 29, 2007, 06:57 PM

OK this particular colic case you have described needs vet attention two hours ago! The white gums are a bad sign, but also check the caplillary refill rate, more than 3 seconds is a bad sign (shock), if gums turn DARK red or purple, even worse sign, as this indicates toxin build up in gut (usually from an impaction). Many times at this point is irreversable.

Now, what I do is at the FIRST SIGN of ANY colic they get 10 cc banamine. THis is NOT going to cover up signs if the horse has a torsion etc. 9 times out of 10 the banamine clears up a mild colic, i.e. gas type of colic. I wait for 45 minutes to 1 hour and if horse is showing NO signs of relief will call the vet and discuss with her. I check gums, check for gut sounds on BOTH sides of belly (don't need a stethoscope, just put ear up against the hroses side and listen for a minute or two should hear LOTS of noises, if only a few then gut motily is low, possible impaction), look for signs of any recent manure, if you can find some, break apart and see if it seems very dry (dehydration). Do the "pinch" test for dehydration on skin, pinch up a pice of skin, should sping back into place, if not horse is dehydrated. Temp can tell you a few things, if temp is high, then possibly an infection or virus going on, if low then bad sign of shock. All of this gets relayed to the vet who then makes a decision about further treatment. Walking is not a good idea unless horse is FRANTICALLY thrashing, If they lay quietly, or just roll a little leave alone, but best to put in small turnout instead of stall. DEFINITELY take away all hay and feed, even if the colic seems to resolve itself. If a horse colics here they are off all feed/hay for a day, only thing they get is a small amount of very wet beet pulp.

rabicon

Dec. 29, 2007, 06:58 PM

We first check for gut sounds, check gums, take temp. Then call vet. We then give banamine before vet gets out to help take some of the pain and relax the intestines. Then we walk. Even if the horse is not thrashing, sometimes we will lunge at the trot. As told by our vet this helps get everything moving hopefully. This is usually why most people walk them even if they are not thrashing about. I've also heard of some people loading them in a trailer to try to get them to poop :confused: Then we wait for vet to come and pump their stomach.

promlightshine

Dec. 29, 2007, 07:09 PM

I agree with the call the vet a bit sooner than later. Get the vitals and stats. Often they will advise walking and monitoring if needed. I don't have banamine on hand-keep thinking I should get some.

I learned of the "trailer trick" a few years ago when I met some track folks. It is something many of them do and it does seem to help. I did it for a friend whose draft mare was colicing. She wasn't bad- vitals were stable. There was a woman there who is a very experienced vet tech-worked at the local large animal hospital. They had called the vet and she had given her a report. The tech suggested a ride as it was winter-cold/icey and at night and it was really hard to walk the mare.

Rode around for about 30 minutes. She finally passed some poop-seemed more comfortable. I then dropped her off at a farm with a "rehab" barn. It allowed for monitoring and also a comfy stall for the night. She pulled through just fine.

CoolMeadows

Dec. 29, 2007, 07:26 PM

1) Check stats, gums and hydration
2) Listen for gut sounds
3) Check out poop! How much/what type?

If hyperactive/gassy sounding immediately administer Equi-spaz (http://www.whistlestopper.com/books/B0002L02LY/Equi_Spaz.html) paste and take for walk. Occasionally I will lunge quietly a bit if they've a hyper gut but aren't terribly uncomfortable. Between the Equi-spaz and movement the episode is usually over very quickly. I've had 3 of these out of probably over 100 horses owned/cared for and they've all been after a period of rain and sudden grass growth that can be common in VA in the spring and fall.

If limited/no gut sounds I panic much more and immediately call the vet, give Equi-spaz just in case and walk if they're thrashing or take out hay if they're not. I've only had one of these and he passed away due to stroke during surgery. He was a rescue whose intestines were loaded with adhesions from years of parasite damage - very sad situation. The vet had been out twice and given banamine, after which the horse was relieved. By the third call he'd twisted and went to surgery. I'd never witnessed colic at that time and thought banamine was *the* colic drug, now I think differently.

The only time I'd give banamine now is if the horse was so obviously in trouble and pain relief's needed to get them to surgery or while waiting for euthanasia. My neighbor's old man was down in his field last year, covered in scrapes and sweat and had obviously been thrashing for a long time by the time I saw him from my driveway. I did give him Banamine while we waited for the vet as the poor guy was refluxing out his nostrils and was clearly at the end. :(

horsekpr

Dec. 29, 2007, 07:27 PM

I call vet immediately ,for a heads up to her,and follow instructions.usually that is give 10 cc banamine,walk the horse if it is trying to roll ,otherwise ,let it be.remove feed from stall. call owner,if that is not me,immediately after calling the vet,or perhaps call owner first depending on the situation. If owner is not immediately reachable ,I would call vet if harse was distressed. Also good to take vitals before calling vet so she can have that info as well.I would not give banamine without permisson of vet or horse owner,as technically I could be liable if not done on vets say so. Usually ,the banamine does the trick and within the hour horse is much improved. if banamine does not help tremendously ,usually the vet will want to come out. Also ,since banamine has an 8 hour effect,i be sure to watch the horse for signs of discomfort as the banamine wears off.

crazy gray horse

Dec. 29, 2007, 07:43 PM

Remove all hay/feed. I always listen for gut sounds, check for manure, check vitals. I call my vet to keep her appraised of the situation from the onset. Then banamine to ease discomfort.

Recently I had a horse with gas colic - he was pawing, stretching, buckling at the knees like he wanted to go down. I put a call into the vet - but gave him banamine while waiting for her return call and kept him walking. When the vet called back she suggested trotting him to help move the gas along.

If I have a horse that is quiet, but uncomfortable, he'll get banamine to ease the discomfort and I'll leave him be. I'll monitor him until he improves.

If I didn't see any improvement within 30 minutes or so, the vet would be on the way.

Freebird!

Dec. 29, 2007, 07:46 PM

Well, while I was out tending to my own horses, the Owner left a message saying that maverick was much better, so they left him up in a stall for the night. I haven't rechecked him myself, but I will before I get ready for bed.

I'm not saying that they were wrong in giving the Banimine, I just think that too many horse owners are too quick to give it, even before they really know what is going on.

sid

Dec. 29, 2007, 07:53 PM

BuddyRoo is right on with those instructions...and don't leave the horses' side. If the pain symptoms recurr, no matter how mild, after meds are in full effect (30-45 min.), it's likely a torsion which requires immediate surgical intervention.

The only thing I might add to BuddyRoo's list is that if the vet you've called is not personally familiar with the horse, is to have any info on adverse drug reactions or intestinal problems(i.e. ulcers) and any other history of colic/illness about the horse at one's fingertips to pass on right away.

Kenike

Dec. 29, 2007, 07:54 PM

First thing I do is get the horse up, even if laying calmly. Then I take vitals, listen to the gut, and check the poop. I do skip the poop check if horse is already sweaty and/or frantic and thrashy...we just start walking then. I can do all the vitals that way, with the exception of temp, so no big deal. Can also listen for gut sounds...an ear to the gut or stethoscope while walking is no big deal. I call the vet immediately after taking vitals and gut check. Usually I'll turn the horse to the ring to let it move more freely and definitely have zero access to food or water, but not always. Sometimes I'll just take the food/water out of the stall.
I'm among the very few who isn't the biggest fan of banamine, so I try to avoid it. I will use it, when necessary (like the barn or the owner of horse dictates), but tend to skip that step for equi-spaz...if I can.

shawneeAcres

Dec. 29, 2007, 08:04 PM

All of you that are "against" the use of Banamine, There is an added benefit to Banamine, it helps prevent the uptake of toxins (a byproduct of colic, particularly impactions) into the bloodstream. Even if we suspect an impaction, my vet will adminster banamine for this reason. The onlyr eal contraindication to Banamine is a horse known to have ulcers, which it can cause them to worsen. I had a filly whom we had purchased (was by my stallion) and when I picked her up after weaning this poor thing was in AWFUL shape (boguth her at 10 days old) they had really not taken care of her. For a few months she was prone to colic as we basically worked on her immune system, worming etc. She went thru an AWFUL colic (her last thank goodness!) where we honestly thought we'd lose her, she was refluxing, deep red gums, etc. I have a policy, that unfortuantely, with the number of horses we have, if something cannot be resolved at the farm, they have to be euthanized, I jsut cannot afford the expense of major colic surgery. At any rate, vet felt we'd likely not pull her thru that last colic, but with LOTS of supposrtive care (IV fluids, banamine to prevent toxin uptake and other meds as well as tubing to help relieve pressure in the gut) she is now a healthy coming two year old. Honestly never thought she'd make it, but she did!

sid

Dec. 29, 2007, 08:17 PM

shawneeAcres

Dec. 29, 2007, 08:28 PM

I always am amazed at owners who "listen for gut sounds" and if they hear something they think they are ok. The horses intestinal tract is miles long and requires a trained vet to discern what it normal from each area of it, and what is not.

Saving a buck by self diagnosing with a stethascope, without professional veterinary training and assistance is foolhardy..and a cheap and potentially dangerous way to go, IMO.

Sorry but been "self diagnosing" for over 30 years and have a good track record! Your vet can explain the BASICS of gut sounds, what to listen for, what is too much or too little (too much also can cause colic, when something is irritating the gut). Not something that in and of itself will tell you everything, but if you understand how a diagnosis works, the combination of symptoms can give a vet a clear picture over the phone of what is going on and how urgent the situation may be. Which in our neck of the woods is important as we have few vets that service a LARGE LARGE area, so immediate veterinary attention is not always possible!

ddashaq

Dec. 29, 2007, 08:30 PM

I check TPR and CRT, then I call the vet. Unless told directly to give Banamine, I do not. I keep the horse up if they want to thrash otherwise I let them rest either standing or laying down. My vets consider all colics an emergency so I always have them out.

tds

Dec. 29, 2007, 08:31 PM

I can't think of a case where a vet arrived for a case of colic and didn't give banamine ...

I don't mind giving banamine, it's just 75% of the time it's with the vet's blessing beforehand.

There are some horses I know well enough to know it's a "hmmm it could be colic ... but if it is, it's a very very mild case and we are going to nip it in the bud". These are generally mild distress, no dehydration, good capillary refill time. Just NQR in the Belly area (technical term). They get a shot of banamine and are closely monitored for the next 4-8 hours.

Then there are colic cases that make me call the vet and give them the option: "Do you want me to give a shot and monitor or do you want to come out now?" These generally involve decent capillary refill and hydratio, but more serious pain level ( no doubt this is a colic). Apparently I inspire trust in my abilities because over the last 2 decades not one vet has wanted to come out "now" - they have all taken me up on my offer. And by and large that one shot has pretty much resolved it.

And then there are the other colic cases. Sometimes you don't even have to take their vitals but you know what you will find when you do. You take one look at them and you just know that speed is of the essence. If the vet wants me to give a shot of banamine because they won't be there for over an hour, that's fine, but regardless, the vet is coming out asap.

I stick an ear to their stomach but that's just to give me something to do. I don't kid myself that I can hear a damn thing and if I did, I doubt I'd know what it meant.

equinelaw

Dec. 29, 2007, 08:38 PM

OP--that horse is not OK. I can tell that from here just reading your post. The Vet should be there already and this is not a DIY colic.

If my horse had white gums and a slow bad colic I would be on the phone with the VET ASAP or diging a large hole instead of walking it.

Sorry to sound harsh, but if giving banimine and walking not walking are the questions being asked there is nobody there qualified to diagnose this horse and know its a BAD colic.

By the time the gums go white the horse is in serious trouble. I have only seem white gums in horses that did not make it and I have seem a lot of colics in my time.

gas colics do not present slowly and do not interfere with circulation.

Huntertwo

Dec. 29, 2007, 08:53 PM

I can't think of a case where a vet arrived for a case of colic and didn't give banamine ...

Although one time my Appy was colicing quite badly. Before I even got to the barn the B.O. gave him some Banamine.

After my Vet arrived, she was kind of ticked off that we didn't wait for her approval as she wanted to judge his condition before the Banamine kicked in.

His gums were grey, vitals not good. We ended up taking him to Tuft's and it turned out to be an Impaction Colic.

Now, if any signs of Colic, Vet gets called ASAP.

deltawave

Dec. 29, 2007, 08:56 PM

Check vitals, listen to gut sounds, make sure horse isn't thrashing or in danger, assess overall level of distress, possibly give some Banamine, call the vet. In that order unless something were really "not right" in which case I'd hold off on the Banamine until after calling the vet.

sid

Dec. 29, 2007, 09:01 PM

shawneeacres...I didn't mean to offend you. Clearly you seem to say that you have had had consice and indepth veterinary instruction on how to use the stethascope and what each portion of the gut should sound like normally (peristalsis). Most people don't!

Please remember that others think hearing one rumbling is a signal of all ok, and fail to call their vet. Cripes, you can have a "dead sound" area that only a vet can discern while the rest of the gut is active (and in some cases hypermotile).

atr

Dec. 29, 2007, 10:02 PM

In addition to all the advice so far given, and obviously this depends on the severity of the symptoms, the other thing I will do is give the horse a really good grooming--particularly massaging the tummy area. This relaxes them, which tends to help get things moving if you've got a gas or minor impaction colic going.

I know it sounds a bit bizarre, but it really does seem to help, and beats walking round in circles for both of us.

sublimequine

Dec. 29, 2007, 10:47 PM

I always am amazed at owners who "listen for gut sounds" and if they hear something they think they are ok. The horses intestinal tract is miles long and requires a trained vet to discern what it normal from each area of it, and what is not.

Saving a buck by self diagnosing with a stethascope, without professional veterinary training and assistance is foolhardy..and a cheap and potentially dangerous way to go, IMO.

Some of us listen to our horse's gut sounds regularly so we know what sounds normal and what doesn't, you know. :rolleyes:

As for what I do if my horse colics..

1. Check for poop.
2. If horse is down (thrashing or not), get it up.
3. Check the gut sounds, then begin walking.
4. Have someone call the vet.
5. Give the horse Banamine (10cc) if vet gives the a-ok to do so, continue walking.
6. Wait for horse to improve, then put back with no feed until further notice.
7. Monitor horse carefully for a few hours, then offer small amounts of hay if vet gives the a-ok on that, too.

I'm a believer in walking the horse. It's a bit easier to keep a horse from going down if it is walking, and not just standing. Also, in things like gas colic, it helps if the horse can move around a bit.

Freebird!

Dec. 29, 2007, 10:52 PM

Sorry to sound harsh, but if giving banimine and walking not walking are the questions being asked there is nobody there qualified to diagnose this horse and know its a BAD colic.

As I stated in my original post, I am NOT the owner of the horse - I am just friend's with the owner, and have known the horse for 15 years. The vet was consulted, and experienced horse folks were there to evaluate him. However, I just didn't agree on everything that was done - or I should say, not done - which prompted me to start this thread.

As an update: I just came back from checking on Maverick, and he is much improved. While his gums were not as pink as they should be, they at least had color to them. He had 1 poop pile, which was nice and moist, but had not drank any water, so I gave him half a flake of soaked grass hay as well as some very soupy soaked beet pulp, which I added some Electrolytes and Epsom Salts to. He was happily slurping it up as I left, so I assume that Mavy is going to be OK.

sid

Dec. 29, 2007, 11:09 PM

equinelaw

Dec. 29, 2007, 11:19 PM

I know you are not the owner and its not your responsibility to care for their horses. You are doing a good thing. It just doesn't sound like they are up to the task of diagnosing a horse or they wouldn't need your help.

Where I live we have lots of Vets avialible at all times. I forget that is is not that way all over. Our Vets do not diagnose coilic over the phone when white gums are present and there is a risk of an impaction, but the reality is that in some places that is all you can get on a Sat night.

I'm gald the horse seems to be doing better. My answer to your questions was simply call the Vet ASAP and get them out there with no walking or drugs unless the Vets said to do that.

I always give Banimine and I have always had Vets give Banimine to a colicky horse. Never Bute--always Banimine. Usually mixed with some Rompium or tobogesic (sp?) or whatever the latest coctail is.

When I was 14 my horse had mild colic and white gums. We walked her until she dropped dead. She would have died either way, but she didn't have to die walking until she couldn't walk any more.

The next horse I saw colic with white gums doed too. She was not walked. The next with white gums died before she could even be loaded into the trailer.

I take white gums seriously and really ever see a colic that bad in a horse that resolves itself with no Vet help. I suppose they can and do--just never seen it myself. I hope your friends horse is one of them becuase now he is loaded up with pain killers and can look fine whether he is or not. in 12 hours you'll know the answer.

I have seen many many horses colic and be fine the next day too, but none of them were as bad as you made Maverick sound in your first post. Pain yeah, sweating yeah, thrashing rolling screaming all yeah, but white gums? Nope.

sublimequine

Dec. 29, 2007, 11:53 PM

sublimequine...oh my. Again, not to offend by my post..only stating the "facts, ma'am". There are several distinct types of colicT. They are not all handled/treated the same way re:walking, meds, etc.

Again, hopefully you are totally experienced in all normal/abnormal aspects of gut function via the stethascope. It can take years for practicing vets to become expert at this, that is why I discourage non-vets from using "gut sounds" in general to self diagnose -- it can bite you in the ass one day. But I say this fully understanding that one's own protocal for their horses situation is their own to decide.

I do agree that basing a diagnosis completely off gut sounds is really a bad idea, even for a vet. If I suspect the horse is colicking, I use that to try and get a better idea of what I'm facing (and so I have more to tell the vet on the phone, so they can give me a better idea of what to do). But either way, if I have any doubt, I'll call the vet. Better safe than sorry, and a phone call doesn't cost much. ;)

shawneeAcres

Dec. 29, 2007, 11:55 PM

white gums is a sign of shock. Do ALL horses with white gums die, well no, becuase I have had MANY with white gums turn around and be fine, but it IS a sign that things need to be addressed, immediately by a vet. Usually IV fluids are indicated. Now red or purple gums are quite another matter, and will generally (but again not always, my filly I talked about earlier being one case) inidicate death is pretty imminent. A horse can recover from shock with proper care, most horses cannot recover from toxins in the blood stream, this usually causes organs to begin shutting down, and red/purple gums are a sign of this.

Annetta

Dec. 30, 2007, 12:42 AM

Here I have learned that there is little point in calling the vet for colic. The vets--none of them--want to come out & oil a horse, and quite frankly I don't know as there is any one of them that I trust enough to let them try (if they did agree to tube with oil and that's not likely) to stick a tube in the right place. If they are that reluctant to do it I'm just afraid that they may not be very good at it. Colic surgery would have to be done out of town, several hours away so nothing to do with the local vets.

We've never had much problem with colic in all our years with horses--some mild cases now & again, but mostly not serious, all but two relieved by banamine and some walking. And no, I do not even bother to call the vet before giving banamine, nor after giving it either. There have been a few exceptions--the Mini foal that got colic at a month old when her mom came into heat, I called the vet to ask him if I could give banamine to a foal that young, and if so how much. Got my answers without him wanting to come out. I've given oil by syringe to a couple of the small ponies--it works quite well on them & yes I'm careful to not administer it in such a way that it could be aspirated--on the full size horses it wouldn't be so easy but we've been lucky with them & they haven't needed oil.

We had one foal that looked like she had serious impaction colic to start with, but we eventually learned (after she was recovered) that it was actually WEE--it had slowed down her digestive system to cause the colic, plus as it progressed it affected her urinary tract as well, and at the last she was showing some neurological symptoms. When the initial dose of banamine didn't relieve it we called the vet, who did come out. He didn't do anything I hadn't already done other than draw blood (which didn't tell us anything at all until the WEE test results eventually came back). He did give us some Gas-X for her, and told me to administer oil via syringe every 4 hours and and said banamine every 12 hours for up to 5 days. The only real benefit from his call was the Gas-X, $6 worth of drug & I paid $250 for it. As for the WEE results, they didn't really matter by the time we got them--we'd pretty much figured that out anyway, as soon as the filly started having problems with urination & she started showing some neurological symptoms.

So, in a similar situation now I would just do my own assessment, as usual, administer banamine, walk the horse if necessary, let him lay quietly if he's not trying to roll, administer oil if possible & if it seems necessary, and if it seems like a more serious impaction I'd call the vet & try to talk her into letting me have some Gas-X...chances are pretty good that I would get it. Obviously if it were to appear to be a severe case, worst case scenario type thing, I would then have to decide if the horse was likely to make it to the nearest surgical facility or if I should call the vet to euthanize.

I have to agree with shawnee that I'm much more concerned by gums that are a deep dark red or congested purple than by pale or white gums. White gums would mean a phone consultation with my vet and possible farm call ; purple ones would probably mean I'd be calling her to come & euthanize.

CanadianGolden

Dec. 30, 2007, 01:39 AM

I always give Banimine and I have always had Vets give Banimine to a colicky horse. Never Bute--always Banimine. Usually mixed with some Rompium or tobogesic (sp?) or whatever the latest coctail is.

Banamine, Rompun, Torbugesic.

Banamine is used, not Bute, because it has anti-endotoxic effects. Bute works primarily on the musculoskeletal system and therefore is not effective against colic pain. Also, bute should only be injected IV because it can cause tissue damage if given IM. Most owners are not competent to do an IV injection even if they can do an IM one, so the only way to give bute would be orally, making it slower acting due to slower absorption.

slc2

Dec. 30, 2007, 08:23 AM

There IS no gold standard one thing to do that works in every case, except to dial the phone and call the vet.

People do have their favorite things to do.

What I have to say though is that what is right for one situation isn't right for another. You just can't really make a gold standard, do this, do that, all will be well.

We had an old horse that was on his last legs with cancer and he coliced regularly. The owner had no money to do anything other than give him something for the pain. We always walked him for a long time and let him pick at some grass. The spasm would pass off and he would go back to the barn feeling better. If a non-cancerous youngster had the EXACT same behavior we would react totally differently. What one does has to be adapted to what one sees AND to the situation, age and health of the horse, and often to many other factors. If a horse was colicking on new years eve in a blizzard, I would do something very different than i would if it was a weekday at 2 pm and I knew the vet could get there imemdiately if things took a turn for the worse.

We would NEVER to remove ALL food - we left the horse with hay, and carefully observed if he ate it, how much, and what his behavior was. We did remove any grain.

Banamine is usually given for colic these days. It lasts a short time, so there is usually very little concern that it will 'mask' symptoms. It may ease a tight spot and let things work themselves out.

Part of the vet's procedure is evaluating the response to banamine, it's actually very useful that way. Horse gets a shot of it, and the vet is en route, drive time 45 min. He comes in the barn, and sees a calm, relaxed horse munching hay quietly. He examines the horse and leaves instructions - all seems well. OR...he gets there, the banamine has done NOTHING, or after a few moments of ease the symptoms are back with a vengeance, the horse is in a cold sweat, shocky gums, it's time to go into high gear.

With the horse that is now 'better'. What happened to him was an extremely severe colic. He was shocky and he was in a great deal of pain. I would not relax AT ALL that he is 'better now'. I would be very concerned that whatever is going on inside of him was not discovered and that the next colic would kill him. I wouldn't fuss that he did or didn't get a sheet on him or did or didn't get banamine, because the whole thing was very, very wrong.

The gold standard is take stats and unless you are very confident that you don't need any help, call the vet, decide on a plan of action with the vet, and keep observing the horse. The gold standard is also that if you don't want to involve the vet, you accept the consequences if it turns out to be much more severe than you thought or your chosen treatment doesn't work.

I'd also say the gold standard is if things don't look better damn fast, you DO call the vet.

I've seen quite a few cases where people wait and wait and wait to call the vet, and when they do, it's too late to do anything and the horse is put down, and then they have the gall to up and say, 'see, vets know nothing, the horse died'.

The gold standard is also that a mild looking colic can easily be from a very serious issue, and what you see can change very quickly into a real life threatening emergency.

We just don't have a lot of colics. We're lucky? Not completely. We stick to a very set routine, we try to feed the best hay we can, we work with the vet to find any underlying health problems, and most of the time, we've been lucky enough to have very healthy horses that before we got them, were wormed diligently and didn't suffer a lot of neglect, so their insides are in good shape. Even with all that effort I still do consider us just somewhat lucky. But we don't trust to luck to save us.

Very important is the pattern. Does the horse colic often? When and under what circumstances? How often has this happened before? Even a very mild colic can be due to a stallion hernia, cystic ovaries, or even, an enterolith or tumor that is progressively growing and will one day kill the horse.

Back home years ago, we were at one barn where the person in charge called any repeat colicker a 'wussy' and did nothing about it, and the repeat colickers just suffered on and on - one had a stallion hernia, two had reproductive problems, one had an enterolith (died during a final big colic), two had cancer (Died), one had a dead foal in her (someones stallion got loose, they guessed), and that was a pretty horrible death.

I agree with sid that most people aren't skilled enough to read gut sounds. I think many horse owners can't handle colic cases themselves and shouldn't.

I know that will offend people who feel very capable to deal with anything that pops up after many years with horses. If you feel you are able, you don't need a vet, vets don't know anything, god bless, and I will cross my fingers for you.

I don't know any vet that goes by gut sounds alone. That would be such a partial picture of what's going on.

To those who have successfully treated colics for years with their own chosen home remedies - trailer rides, walking, not walking, banamine, no banamine, a sheet, no sheet - you are all very lucky if it has always worked for you. These most likely were mild or moderate situation-based colics without internal twists, strangulation of bowel, tumors, enteroliths, or other non-resolvable problems, that probably would have gotten better with banamine, without, with or without whatever chosen remedy. Many colics resolve in as short as 45 min of walking, many resolve in a couple days (impactions) with very little intervention.

All I can say is, don't get too confident. If the horse has an enterolith, twist or something really serious going on inside, your treatment may appear to work and the colic may appear to be mild and things can change very, very quickly and go very, very badly.

If the vets won't come out and oil a horse it doesn't necessarily mean they aren't good at doing that. All the vets in my area will come out and oil a horse if it is colicking, except in every case I can recall in the last 25 years, they haven't used oil, and that isn't always regarded as the best thing. Instead some kind of special foamy fluid is used, I can't recall the name of it, it's a surfactant. This can soften impactions.

If a large animal vet couldn't put a tube down a horse, he probably wouldn't last long as a large animal vet. It's a very common procedure. I only call vets that I trust and that I know have very big horse practices. They are all very good and I respect them immensely. I have options in case my favorite one can't come out.

rabicon

Dec. 30, 2007, 10:53 AM

tds

Dec. 30, 2007, 11:01 AM

Although one time my Appy was colicing quite badly. Before I even got to the barn the B.O. gave him some Banamine.

After my Vet arrived, she was kind of ticked off that we didn't wait for her approval as she wanted to judge his condition before the Banamine kicked in.

His gums were grey, vitals not good. We ended up taking him to Tuft's and it turned out to be an Impaction Colic.

Now, if any signs of Colic, Vet gets called ASAP.

Still, that's not the same thing as "not giving banamine". Like I said above, it's almost always done on the advice of the vet, in those instances where I give it sans vet approval, it's such a mild case I am not even sure we are truly talking colic. And again, if we are talking about a case where the vitals are not good ... I've still not seen a case where the horse didn't get banamine (and torbogesic and a few other things), it's just (as I said) a conversation one should have with the vet before you treat - if the vet is 2 hours away, s/he may prefer you give banamine if they have some knowledge of your experience level, observation and shot giving skills. Bottom line though? I wouldn't give a shot of anything to someone else's horse unless the vet specifically told me to.

I will have to amend my statement about a vet not giving banamine. I have seen it on rare occasions, but it was back when dyprone (or however it was spelled) was on the market, so that admission dates me.

Tory Relic

Dec. 30, 2007, 12:20 PM

Freebird!

Dec. 30, 2007, 02:30 PM

Banamine, Rompun, Torbugesic.

Banamine is used, not Bute, because it has anti-endotoxic effects. Bute works primarily on the musculoskeletal system and therefore is not effective against colic pain. Also, bute should only be injected IV because it can cause tissue damage if given IM. Most owners are not competent to do an IV injection even if they can do an IM one, so the only way to give bute would be orally, making it slower acting due to slower absorption.

I think EquineLaw may have mentioned the Bute because in my original post I had mistakingly put Bute instead of Banimine, but edited it when I saw my mistake. Whoops!

MaresNest

Dec. 30, 2007, 02:45 PM

Here I have learned that there is little point in calling the vet for colic. The vets--none of them--want to come out & oil a horse, and quite frankly I don't know as there is any one of them that I trust enough to let them try (if they did agree to tube with oil and that's not likely) to stick a tube in the right place. If they are that reluctant to do it I'm just afraid that they may not be very good at it. Colic surgery would have to be done out of town, several hours away so nothing to do with the local vets.

Passing a tube is a very standard part of working up colics. I can't imagine not having a vet who was comfortable doing it. I would not consider a vet that couldn't pass a tube to be a competent practitioner. And passing a tube is really a critical thing to do with colics. When I worked in the horse hospital, we had a few cases where the horses arrived at the clinic with ruptured stomachs because no one had bothered to pass a tube and check for reflux on the farm. That is a terrible, and very preventable, death for a horse. I would really, really recommend finding someone who is competent to do this.

Back to the OP's question, though...

What I Do:

1.) If the horse is rolling, get him up and walking. If he is standing or lying quietly, I do not walk him.

2.) If possible (it may not be, if the horse is persistently trying to go down), get the following info:

- heart rate
- presence or absence of gut sounds in all 4 quadrants
- color/moisture level of gums, presence/absence of toxic line, capillary refill time

3.) Call the vet. No more than 5 minutes should have elapsed between my first sight of the horse and this phone call.

What I Expect A Vet To Do in the Field:

1.) A quick but thorough physical, with the assistance of pain meds/sedation if necessary.

2.) A rectal exam

3.) Pass a tube to check for reflux and possibly administer water/oil/electrolytes if indicated.

4.) Develop and implement a pain control plan.

5.) Start fluids if indicated.

What I Expect the Horse Hospital to Do:

1.) Abdominal ultrasound

2.) Re-rectal, re-tube.

3.) Bloodwork.

4.) Fluids.

5.) Consult with a surgeon.

Edited to add: I would only give Banamine if directed to do so by the vet OR if the horse was obviously in terrific amounts of pain. If the horse can stand it and the vet is not far away, you really want the vet to see the horse before any drugs are masking symptoms.

Mallard

Dec. 30, 2007, 05:45 PM

TalkIsCheap

Dec. 30, 2007, 05:57 PM

Woodsperson

Dec. 30, 2007, 06:29 PM

If the symptoms are bad or I can't get the vet, the horse goes on the trailer to the clinic (with surgeon). Otherwise I take temp., listen to gut sounds, check vitals and call the vet and describe symptoms. Banamine, walking etc depends on what the vet recommends. The vet either comes out or she tells us to go to clinic. Even if it is mild or questionable the vet will tube, oil and give banamine and buscopan.

shawneeAcres

Dec. 30, 2007, 07:01 PM

To those of you who adminster banamine yourself, are you giving it IV or IM??

There have been many reported cases of nasty allergic reactions to banamine given IM.

You can also give it orally, which would take longer to work, but IMHO a much better alternative to giving it IM.

Any IM injection can have a "nasty reaction" if given inciorrectly. I have always given Banamine IM and have been doing so for 30+ years with no adverse effects. And I have given it to MANY MANY horses over the years, ahving always had a LOT of horse to care for both my own, and other peoples either as barn manager, or as boarders.

CoolMeadows

Dec. 30, 2007, 07:42 PM

sid - I wouldn't discourage people from listening to gut sounds, it's a very useful skill to have and I certainly can hear the difference between a hyperactive gut, an underactive gut and a normal sounding tummy. I interned with Godolphin's vet in Dubai every summer for years as a teen. More people should know what normal-for-their-horse sounds like. My one experience with a truly nasty colic made me a little Banamine shy but in reality it was the vet's mistake for just adminstering pain meds repeatedly with no other treatment and my fault for using that vet in the first place.

I will use it if the horse is in tremendous pain or if the vet instructs me to but I've yet to have one ask me to do it before they can visually assess the horse. I give it IV, but have given it IM when IV wasn't possible (neighbor's other oldster was contorted, down and so furry that IV just wasn't possible).

onetempies

Dec. 30, 2007, 07:48 PM

Great post MaresNest! :yes:

I always have banamine & bute on hand as well as UlcerGard and paste probiotics. If a horse has colic I note the outward signs and take temp. Depending on severity, I call vet before giving banamine. Depending on how long said vet will be, they will tell me to either give a bit of banamine or hold off until they get to the barn and see the original symptoms. If horse passes manure before vet get there, I keep last pile(s) put aside for their inspection. Horse trailer is always kept accessible for easy hook-up OR I make contact with my "emergency ride" to give them heads up of a colic.

bugsynskeeter

Dec. 30, 2007, 08:09 PM

Exactly what MaresNest said. And ditto on the part about tubing a horse. We've had horses come into the hospital I work at that refluxed 5+ gallons the first time we passed a tube (most of it spontaneous). Sometimes you need to get that pressure off their stomach ASAP in order to be able to do a proper examination. If your vet isn't competent enough to tube a horse - FIND A NEW ONE!

And as far as the Banamine, I give it either orally or IV. Won't give it IM - I've seen it when it goes bad.

ETA - Always remember that simply passing manure doesn't mean everything is fine. Remember to continue to monitor them closely. I've seen horses that were passing manure that ended up having to go to surgery for having a torsion.

tds

Dec. 30, 2007, 09:01 PM

To those of you who adminster banamine yourself, are you giving it IV or IM??

There have been many reported cases of nasty allergic reactions to banamine given IM.

You can also give it orally, which would take longer to work, but IMHO a much better alternative to giving it IM.

not allergic reactions, but bacterial infection - banamine is more commonly associated with clostridial infections at IM site - a really nasty opportunistic anaerobic infection. It's certainly not common, but since the "cure" is to give the shot IV (works faster) or give the syringe orally (works about the same speed as IM), it begs the question WHY give it IM?

onetempies

Dec. 30, 2007, 09:42 PM

...
ETA - Always remember that simply passing manure doesn't mean everything is fine. Remember to continue to monitor them closely. I've seen horses that were passing manure that ended up having to go to surgery for having a torsion.

Thanks for adding that! I meant to put it in my post as well, but forgot. :(

Thomas_1

Dec. 30, 2007, 10:48 PM

There IS no gold standard one thing to do that works in every case, except to dial the phone and call the vet.

The gold standard is take stats and unless you are very confident that you don't need any help, call the vet, decide on a plan of action with the vet, and keep observing the horse.
The gold standard is also that if you don't want to involve the vet, you accept the consequences if it turns out to be much more severe than you thought or your chosen treatment doesn't work.

I'd also say the gold standard is if things don't look better damn fast, you DO call the vet.

The gold standard is also that a mild looking colic can easily be from a very serious issue, and what you see can change very quickly into a real life threatening emergency.

Got to say that the whole of this posting was one of the most incomprehensible that I've seen for a long time.

It certainly deserves the gold medal for being odd.

~Freedom~

Dec. 30, 2007, 11:00 PM

We had an old horse that was on his last legs with cancer and he coliced regularly. The owner had no money to do anything other than give him something for the pain. We always walked him for a long time and let him pick at some grass. The spasm would pass off and he would go back to the barn feeling better. If a non-cancerous youngster had the EXACT same behavior we would react totally differently. What one does has to be adapted to what one sees AND to the situation, age and health of the horse, and often to many other factors. If a horse was colicking on new years eve in a blizzard, I would do something very different than i would if it was a weekday at 2 pm and I knew the vet could get there imemdiately if things took a turn for the worse.

How many horses do you have. Are you all co -owners here.

Banamine is usually given for colic these days. It lasts a short time, so there is usually very little concern that it will 'mask' symptoms. It may ease a tight spot and let things work themselves out.

A lot of people gave you their insight to the uses of Banemine...was that thread so you will be able to post correct information on another thread. I thought it was for some sort of bet?

Part of the vet's procedure is evaluating the response to banamine, it's actually very useful that way. Horse gets a shot of it, and the vet is en route, drive time 45 min. He comes in the barn, and sees a calm, relaxed horse munching hay quietly. He examines the horse and leaves instructions - all seems well. OR...he gets there, the banamine has done NOTHING, or after a few moments of ease the symptoms are back with a vengeance, the horse is in a cold sweat, shocky gums, it's time to go into high gear.

If you knew all this why did we have to go through the exercise of TELLING you all about this drug?

Freebird!

Dec. 30, 2007, 11:05 PM

Even if it is mild or questionable the vet will tube, oil and give banamine and buscopan.

I'm glad you said that! I hate to derail my own thread, but what are everyone's thoughts about the drug Buscopan? It's used in people as well - I've taken it, and certainly does help with intestinal cramping.

Thomas - Thanks for the laugh! :lol:

shawneeAcres

Dec. 30, 2007, 11:19 PM

I just have one question, why is it a supposedly serious question was originally posed and then a bunch of stupid reponses were given? I have given responses that were from YEARS of experience with colic cases. I have had everything from simple gas colics to situations where the horse did not make it, and everyone was handled in a way that the vet said was in the best possible way. Why does everyone have to "second guess" another persons way of handling a potentially serious sitatuation which can also be an insignificant gas problem. insteasd of LEARNING from each other's experiences? Yes, I give banamine IM, and will continue to do so. Is there a possiblility of an adverse reaction, well... yes there is! Does it cross my mind, well...sometimes. But if you pay attention to proper IM injection techniques, this becomes minimal and has never, in probably 500+ injections, become an issue in my mind. Do I appreciate someone bringing it up, yes I do for the uninformed, go to your vet and LEARN the proper technique for giving ANY IM injection. LEARN from others, don't slam them for what they do or don't do, thought the OP wanted ideas, not to be an antogonist! I know the people who keep their horses with me appreciate my ability to recognize colic VERY early on and to deal with it in a cost effective and a way that INSURES the horses positive outcome.

Ghazzu

Dec. 30, 2007, 11:26 PM

So, you go to the barn, and your horse is colicking...what do YOU do?

Schlep back to my truck, grab a stethoscope, bucket, ng tube, handful of acupuncture needles and a syringe, needle, and flunixin.

Take vitals, pop in a couple needles, check stall for manure, water consumption, feed consumption.

Pass ng tube, check for reflux. If none, give a couple gallons warm water.

Possibly give some flunixin, depending on my findings.

Recheck vitals.

Wait.

Repeat some of the above at intervals.

Perhaps offer a handful of grass in season, hay or treats if not. Assess response.

If things look ugly at any point, hook up the trailer and call the vet school.

Ghazzu

Dec. 30, 2007, 11:37 PM

I give banamine IM, and will continue to do so. Is there a possiblility of an adverse reaction, well... yes there is! Does it cross my mind, well...sometimes. But if you pay attention to proper IM injection techniques, this becomes minimal ...

It doesn't have a damn thing to do with "proper technique".
It's the local environment created by the drug itself.

tma

Dec. 30, 2007, 11:42 PM

What I Do:

1.) If the horse is rolling, get him up and walking. If he is standing or lying quietly, I do not walk him.

2.) If possible (it may not be, if the horse is persistently trying to go down), get the following info:

- heart rate
- presence or absence of gut sounds in all 4 quadrants
- color/moisture level of gums, presence/absence of toxic line, capillary refill time

3.) Call the vet. No more than 5 minutes should have elapsed between my first sight of the horse and this phone call.

you really want the vet to see the horse before any drugs are masking symptoms.

Ditto all of the above.

I also take respiration and temp, note any unconsumed feed in addition to the above, and the vet has all of that info within minutes.

We have Dipyrone, Banamine and Bute on hand in our first aid kit, and of course, know how to administer it. But we would never give anything until directed by our veterinarian, for the reason noted by MaresNest.

To the OP: the horse should appear better when under the influence of Banamine (if it doesn't, of course it's in serious trouble).

But although it may not feel the discomfort thanks to the drug(s), the underlying problem isn't necessarily "fixed".

I still would not offer feed of any kind until the vet has actually examined the horse (usually within an hour, here).

Our vet usually recommends withholding all feeds, hay included, until such time as oil begins to come through (assuming the vet decides to tube with oil/water/etc). Normally a minimum of 8-12 hours. Then feeding 1/2 of normal rations if the horse has continued to be comfortable. Then gradually increasing feed in subsequent feedings until back to normal rations....assuming that the horse has continued to be comfortable/normal otherwise.

4Martini

Dec. 31, 2007, 01:19 AM

In what cases would you put the horse on a lunge and trot them? I had a friend who boarded at the same barn as me and maybe once every two months or so her horse would get gassy and protocal was to check on him - if he was nice (rather than evil and pinning ears) and not eating and rolling you knew he was sick. So I would call her and put him on a lunge line and trot him - usually took 10 -15 minutes of farting and a poop and he felt better. About the same time his owner got there. (I rode late at night, so usually did a late night night check in the barn.)

If the horse is farting and uncomfortable - is it a good indicator that a short trot lunge might shake the gas loose?

With what symptoms would you definitely not put the horse on the lunge and trot them?

Thanks!

Kenike

Dec. 31, 2007, 02:17 AM

Having tech'd for 2 separate vets in 2 separate states, I feel confident in listening to/for gut sounds. I am also among those who listens to my own horse(s) on a regular basis to be familiar with what's "normal" for them.

I am also confident in my ability to give IV injections. While I am wholly aware Banamine is endotoxic, I have also seen its muscle relaxing self mask more serious symptoms, causing more problems (albeit usually with people more novice with colic)/ The 2 vets I worked for preferred to see the severity of the colic BEFORE meds were given...unless it was obvious via phone call that the horse was in bad, bad shape (in which case horse was directed to nearest surgical clinic), or vet was far away, due in part to those masking abilities.

But that's a moot point right now..

equinelaw

Dec. 31, 2007, 03:47 AM

4Martini, for me the line is shock. I have a horse famous for his dying scenes--he deserves an Oscar--who always turns out to only have gas, but he has fooled enough Vets into thinking he is dying to know you just can't tell from the outside. However, though all his swoons amd tantrums and colics so painful he gallops around and throws himsef to the ground hard enough to make the barn shake, he has never gone into shock or shown signes of shock or "white as a sheet gums" from a gas colic.

I would never apply what I learned is normal for this horse to another horse though. That comes with experience from 1 horse colicing 30 times, not 30 horses colicing once. And one day, the horse who cried wolf may die of an impaction beucase I thought it was just his usual so and so, but if he doesn't clear up in 12 hours the Vet has to come out and feel around in there.

He may still be colicy for another day, but if he gets a clean "arm up to the shoulder" of health, then a nice trot or exposure to green grass or walk in a new place might be called for.

Any other horse without a clear history of colic I think I would just follow the normal Vets advice for colic and any horse that does not belong to me its call the Vet before anything else.

GHAZZU--what is this BUSCOPAN? Yeah or Nay for gas colics?

Chief2

Dec. 31, 2007, 05:10 AM

Too much work in stable triage, too many trips to the large animal hospital, too many surgeries, too many boarders who insist on waiting too long before calling the vet for help. For my own I:

See what's going on, check the vitals and call the vet. He is reasonable. Comes out if necessary. Otherwise, gives instructions and a call back time frame. I follow instructions and keep tabs on the horse in question. For this reason, I keep an up-to-date tube of banamine on hand, but don't use it ahead of the vet. (This is really simple. If you can't trust the vet so you have to keep jumping in and second guessing him, it's time for a new vet.) If things go downhill, we go to the hospital. Keep a copy of Coggins and insurance information in the glove compartment, and don't leave home without plastic and change for road tolls.

For a horse I am charged with caring for (boarding, horse sitting, etc):
I call the owner first. Then I call the vet, and repeat all of the above. If owner doesn't want vet help first off, I will try to do as they request for a limited amount of time (walking, banamine, etc.). If no response, then whether they like it or not, I call the vet. I don't like using banamine ahead of the vet, but it's a fine line you walk when caring for someone else's horse.

Chief2

Dec. 31, 2007, 05:12 AM

goeslikestink

Dec. 31, 2007, 06:11 AM

Is there some gold standard for colick treatment...and if so, what is it?

The reason why I am asking is this....

Horse at boarding barn behind my house starts colicking tonight. I jump the fence, to see a very tired Maverick (I've known the horse for 15 years) being lead up and down the road. Now, I know I'm not a vet, but I just do not see the point in walking a very dehydrated horse - that is NOT thrashing about - around and around. So, I talk the PM feeder in putting him back in his stall - of which I bedded deeply, and took out all hay and feed.
Since I didn't hear any gut sounds on the left side, I didn't feel comfortable in giving the horse Banamine, but when the Cavalry - The owner's daughter and friend - came, the vet was called, and the horse was given 10cc's of Banamine and of course walked - without the sheet that I suggested putting on him, to prevent a chill. The horse's gums are white as a sheet, he is very dehydrated, lethargic, and by looking at his wet sides, it looks like he has been sick for a while now.

Now, I have always heard that if a horse has impaction colic that giving Banimine could be a bad thing, and that walking a horse - unless it is thrashing about, being in danger of hurting itself/getting cast - really didn't do anything but tire the horse out.

So, what to the vets here on COTH think? Is there really a Gold standard in self treating colic?

Anyway, I'm going to go back in a half hour or so to check on him.

if the horse was being walked its to keep him up--
and can be helped until a vet arrives depending if it was spasmatic colic or full blown colic

colic in the early stages is spasmatic off and on in which cas you take out all feeds stuff
and watch the horse till vet arrives with spasmatic colic a horse can either look towards his belly . kick himself. or lye down and get up for long periods of time but doesnt actually roll

with full blown colic all the above plus rolling and rolling what youhave to prevent and to do that you keep the horse moving- ie walking till vet arrives

theres a fine line in between and a horse in colic situations should always have a vet as it can be fatal

M. O'Connor

Dec. 31, 2007, 06:59 AM

Wow. This thread is confusing! Anyone who might happen on it looking for good, simple triage information certainly isn't going to find it by reading these pages.

When a horse shows colic symptoms, you OBSERVE it closely, check vitals, look for manure...all of which should take maybe 5 or 10 min.

In the meantime you contact the vet, ALWAYS, to advise him/her of the situation, which may or may not escalate...vets like to get a heads up on these things.

Follow the vet's direction re administering Banamine (flunixin).

Make a plan to contact the vet again with an update, and go from there.

Every barn/horse owner should have in place at all times an emergency plan that includes zero notice rapid transport to the nearest clinic in the event of catastrophic injury or serious colic.

If the situation does escalate to a serious point, the plan should be executed.

blackstallion

Dec. 31, 2007, 07:09 AM

In the OPs scenerio, I would have requested the vet come out and followed his instructions. Edited to add, there is a fine line between helping another person's horse and practicing veterinary medicine without a license.

As far as self treating goes, I am and have been fortunate to be the sole caretaker of my herd (of 3 presently) and I stay acutely aware of what is normal for them, how much they eat, drink, lay down, play, etc. To see my 2 year old filly laying down in the middle of the day is normal, to see my stallion stretched out on his side for longer than 5-10 minutes is NOT. Same 2 year old filly gets up and lays back down 2-3 times in a row is a sign of discomfort. So, to date, I've resolved a very minor impaction my stallion developed the morning after a change in hay (he was receptive to eating a hot sloppy bran mash loaded with electrolytes and followed with lots of volunary drinking). And a crampy gassy colic episode with my filly which resolved immediately with banamine (might have been a bit of pms or drank out of a puddle or ?). Nevertheless, these two are now much more closely managed (the stallion gets soaked hay, electrolytes are added to the feed whenever the horses drink less than normal to encourage more drinking, soaked feed is given in cold weather, etc.) When it is all said and done, we may not prevent the horses from collicking again, but I do think pro-active management can prevent a small problem from turning into a life threatening situation if the owner stays alert.

I hope the OP's neighbor's horse will be okay. However, the fact that no one noticed the horse until the neighbor (Freebird!) called to say he was collicking is probably your first clue that a vet should be called and prima facia evidence that the owner of the horse should not be relied upon for self treating this colic. JMHO.
Kim

equinelaw

Dec. 31, 2007, 07:14 AM

I think thats becuase OP asked what we would do and we dont all agree. She didn't ask what she should do--that would be a different thread.

Everyone agrees on Banimine--but differes on method of delivery.

Not everyone agrees on calling the Vet

Not everyone agrees on walking, but they have been more civil on that subject then most threads.

Not everyone agrees on tubing or treating every colic as an emergency situation

Not everyone agrees on whether to give feed or withhold it.

There is a contraversy over gut sounds.

Like it or not--one thing is clear--we do not all agree on one standard of care for all horses in all situations. Thats kind of interesting:)

Annetta

Dec. 31, 2007, 07:23 AM

These most likely were mild or moderate situation-based colics without internal twists, strangulation of bowel, tumors, enteroliths, or other non-resolvable problems, that probably would have gotten better with banamine, without, with or without whatever chosen remedy. no sh-t, Sherlock, what a brilliant deduction. Quite frankly I don't know of any horse owner than can deal with a twisted gut on his/her own. The thing is to know enough to be able to tell when the problem is serious enough to need major intervention...

I can assure you that in the colics I have dealt with on my own, without calling the vet, there would have been absolutely no point in calling the vet. He'd have told me to do exactly what I did. If it turned out that the colic is much more severe than it first appeared, calling the vet or not calling the vet in the first moments of discovery would make no difference whatsoever in the outcome, because the vet without doubt would not take one look at the horse & say he needs surgery...not if the colic initially appeared to be a mild one.

If the colic is serious enough that at first exam the vet would say the horse needs major assistance...that would be obvious to me, and I would call for that major assistance. I've done it once, for a neighbor's horse.

In this area our vets are primarily cattle vets, and I've had people tell me that they've had problems getting the vets to tube their cattle. Of course the vets can put a tube down large animals, but that doesn't mean I have to trust them to do it well. I know more than one person that's lost a horse to having oil put into his lungs. In one case the owner told the vet it was in the wrong place, and vet didn't listen. Owner was right & the horse died quickly, if in a rather awful way. That wasn't a vet around here... Most of the cattle farmers I know are adept at putting tubes down their cattle & calves--they are actually very good at it. Doesn't mean I'd let one of them do it to my horse.

I do trust my vets for many things; a little less for others. There's a good emergency clinic an hour away, a hospital 3 hours away...so far I haven't had any situation that warrented hauling a horse either place. As for calling the vet every time there's a mild case of colic--I simply don't find it necessary. Quite frankly, the vets here don't expect some of us to call over things like that-if I did it, they'd think I was a bit of a nut.

Thomas_1

Dec. 31, 2007, 09:27 AM

In what cases would you put the horse on a lunge and trot them? Erm..... NEVER. And in the same way if my wife has a stomach ache I don't drag her out of bed and chase her round the room till she runs!

If a horse had a mild colic and wasn't in obvious distress and pain then I may well walk it quietly.

Auburn

Dec. 31, 2007, 09:51 AM

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:!! Good one, Thomas 1. Auburn

MaresNest

Dec. 31, 2007, 10:00 AM

no sh-t, Sherlock, what a brilliant deduction.

Wow.

4Martini

Dec. 31, 2007, 10:22 AM

Erm..... NEVER. And in the same way if my wife has a stomach ache I don't drag her out of bed and chase her round the room till she runs!

If a horse had a mild colic and wasn't in obvious distress and pain then I may well walk it quietly.

Well,when my lovely husband tells me to get off my duff when I'm complaining I don't feel well and work out - I usually do feel better (would not do this if I have a fever, but otherwise a light bike ride or jog seems to help.)

But, if you're going to try this you might want to check for projectiles within a arms reach of your wife first, so you don't really need to call the doctor :lol:

Thomas_1

Dec. 31, 2007, 10:33 AM

Well,when my lovely husband tells me to get off my duff when I'm complaining I don't feel well and work out - I usually do feel better (would not do this if I have a fever, but otherwise a light bike ride or jog seems to help.)

But, if you're going to try this Do you honestly have me down as being that stupid?

Ja Da Dee

Dec. 31, 2007, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by MaresNest

What I Do:

1.) If the horse is rolling, get him up and walking. If he is standing or lying quietly, I do not walk him.

2.) If possible (it may not be, if the horse is persistently trying to go down), get the following info:

- heart rate
- presence or absence of gut sounds in all 4 quadrants
- color/moisture level of gums, presence/absence of toxic line, capillary refill time

3.) Call the vet. No more than 5 minutes should have elapsed between my first sight of the horse and this phone call.

you really want the vet to see the horse before any drugs are masking symptoms.

I do pretty much this. I may take him to the indoor arena so if he does start to get fussy, I can walk him right away. I won't administer banamine unless the vet is a distance away and asks me to (actually we ask the barn owner to do it as I don't give iv's)

When my vet arrives, he has always given banamine along with tubed and oiled.

If the horse is still experiencing pain, then we will load him up and go to the University. My vet doesn't play games with colic and neither do I.

Any tummy ache or eye issue will 100% of the time immediately require a call to the vet. I've adoped the theory if I have to ask myself ... should I call the vet on this... then I should call the vet.

RiverBendPol

Dec. 31, 2007, 12:47 PM

The first thing I do is check CRT and heart rate. Then try to figure out how long it has been going on and how deeply into it we are. Chances are, not very long since my fellas live at home and I look at them all day:). The next thing I do is dose with Milk of Magnesia and Baking Soda, a cup each. Then I go about writing down vitals and call the vet to say 'Here's what we're doing, I don't need you yet (or maybe I need you RIGHT NOW) but please stand by." This is my vet's protocol. Depending on severity, I'll dose with Banamine, but not until after discussing with vet. If the Milk of Mag and Soda are going to work, the horse will brighten within 30 minutes. If he doesn't, another call goes into the vet and we begin the next steps-farm call or shipping to hospital.

Freebird!

Dec. 31, 2007, 01:09 PM

I think thats because OP asked what we would do and we don't all agree. She didn't ask what she should do--that would be a different thread.

Everyone agrees on Banimine--but differers on method of delivery.

Not everyone agrees on calling the Vet

Not everyone agrees on walking, but they have been more civil on that subject then most threads.

Not everyone agrees on tubing or treating every colic as an emergency situation

Not everyone agrees on whether to give feed or withhold it.

There is a controversy over gut sounds.

Like it or not--one thing is clear--we do not all agree on one standard of care for all horses in all situations. Thats kind of interesting:)

That is exactly why I started this thread. Standing in the barn with the owner of the horse and her friends, I didn't particularly agree with how things were handled, which made me wonder how other horse folks handled Colic. It is something that is SO common, and yet many of us do not have a definite plan for what to do when our horse IS colicking. I have a son with Asthma, and his Dr wrote out a very specific Asthma treatment plan. Of course the big thing is preventing it, but it sure helps knowing exactly what to do during an attack. One would think that it would be nice to have the same plan of attack for colic.

I hope the OP's neighbor's horse will be okay. However, the fact that no one noticed the horse until the neighbor (Freebird!) called to say he was collicking is probably your first clue that a vet should be called and prima facia evidence that the owner of the horse should not be relied upon for self treating this colic. JMHO.
Kim

Actually it was the PM feeder who found the horse. I just came over because the boarding barn is literally just behind my house. When I came, the fact that he had been sick for a while plus the fact that his gums were so white and he was so dehydrated made me not feel comfortable in administering Banimine to the horse, as I felt that the vet should have came out, but my vote was over ruled, Banimine was given, and the vet was consulted.

As for how the horse is doing now.....

He still is not drinking. The vet said to not give any hay, so he now just getting beet Pulp, Salt and some of his Sr pellets - all soaked of course.

I still wish that the vet would come out and at least pull some blood. We'll see...

goeslikestink

Dec. 31, 2007, 01:54 PM

Erm..... NEVER. And in the same way if my wife has a stomach ache I don't drag her out of bed and chase her round the room till she runs!

If a horse had a mild colic and wasn't in obvious distress and pain then I may well walk it quietly.

i do that to thomas-- i call the vet anyways and i wait for him to come out
in the mean time walk the horse
and i will state to sometimes it helps us the owner to know that we a re doing something to help the horse just by walking it--

you never ever ever trot or chase a horse when it has colic or any type gastric illness
as if it was bug related or toxcin related then you just getting it to enter the system much faster and any thought for a cure has gone out the window,

walking off as in a gentle walk ie horse look like free walking then thats fine
but no more than that-- until help arrvies to assis you with colic is cuase by many things
and in gerneral we are all joe bloggs we cant say what it was that cuases it

cancer is high as illness if the horse suffers from it but in general it could be how you feed it what you fed it and what it ate, ie out in the fields , or at a show or what ever
once when the motorway people were doing the motorway they chopped and muched the trees and bushes with the funnel thing on there machinery facing my fields i didnt know as i done the horse early that morning and they started after i left for work

on return i got the horse in they look ok so did what i normally do but within 20mins of getting them in they was all on the floor not funny when you go 6 neds lying down in aheap
so it had to be something poisonious - my vets were out within minuutes and they neddys weere colicking badly i was on my own with our debs who was just 14 then 6 horses 3 a peice to work with -and keep them upright in the stables it was a nightmare situation to be in vets walk round my field that night and again in the morning and it was john my vet who found the cause as the horses werent responding -- lucky for me he knew how to traet it all once he knew what it was..

horsegirl520

Dec. 31, 2007, 02:12 PM

I usually start by listening to the gut. Then walk the horse for 15 mins (in a figure 8 pattern to stretch the gut in different directions... who knows if it really helps, but I figure it can't hurt). Put him back in his stall and see what he does. I take out all of his hay/grain. If he keeps acting colicy, I call the vet to give them a heads up, asking them what to do, which is usually some Banamine and more walking. If this doesn't do the trick or the horse starts acting colicy again after the Banamine wears off, I ask the vet to come out.

If it is obvious the horse has been in distress for a while when he is found, I call the vet immediately.

Ghazzu

Dec. 31, 2007, 03:45 PM

GHAZZU--what is this BUSCOPAN? Yeah or Nay for gas colics?

It's a scopalomine derivative, inhibits smooth muscle contraction. Designed for spasmodic/gas colic.
Haven't had enough experience with it yet to be able to say a lot about it.
A fair number of folks are using it before doing rectal exams, though--looks like a good idea for an extra label use!

cbv

Dec. 31, 2007, 04:26 PM

it is a large multi-vet clinic so they have always had someone available, but any time I think it a possibility they may need to come I check any vitals that are relevant and call right away to give them a heads up and then follow their recommendation on how to proceed.

For a suspected colic that would include capillary refill, signs of dehydration, pulse, respiration, temp, and yes I listen for gut sounds in four quadrants to report to the vet -- not for self diagnosis.

Fortunately I have not had but two situations where colic was suspected and both were serious enough for the vet to feel it necessary to come but both resolved themselves with tubing and treatment for pain.

Question on trailering a horse that is colicing badly -- all I have on hand and feel comfortable administering is oral bute and banamine and im ace -- again would of course be in contact with vet if this need arises. But how do those of you that have dealt with this kept a painful horse quiet and safe on a trailer ride that will be at least an hour and significantly more if the horse couldn't go to my vet (who does do some surgeries and is doing more and more).

MaresNest

Dec. 31, 2007, 05:02 PM

Question on trailering a horse that is colicing badly -- all I have on hand and feel comfortable administering is oral bute and banamine and im ace -- again would of course be in contact with vet if this need arises. But how do those of you that have dealt with this kept a painful horse quiet and safe on a trailer ride that will be at least an hour and significantly more if the horse couldn't go to my vet (who does do some surgeries and is doing more and more).

Develop a plan for this with your vet. There are a lot of variables.

The good news is that frequently the trailer ride itself proves therapeutic. Just getting out on the bumpy roads can help horses pass gas and manure, so if that is the problem, the horse may be much better by the time he arrives at the clinic.

I also think that if possible, colicky horses should be transported in stock trailers or box stalls. They do sometimes go down in the trailer, and you don't want to have to be dealing with getting them out from under dividers in addition to worrying about the colic itself. That said, I've seen many colicky horses arrive in straight load and slant load trailers and be fine. It's just those few that go down and get in a bad position that make you want to prevent it if at all possible. If tied, there should be opportunities for breakaway if they go down... baling twine and a leather halter is what I would do.

Banamine is probably your best bet for pain. Get your vet to show you how to give it in the vein. The equine jugular vein is huge, and it's not that hard to give an IV shot. You'll want to know how to do it BEFORE you have to do it in a scary colic situation, though. You could probably practice giving IV injections with medical grade saline, if need be. Talk to your vet about it. You *could* use the Banamine orally, but as it can lead to ulcers, I'm not crazy about putting it directly on a sore tummy. It also takes much longer to take effect that way.

Bute and Ace aren't really going to do you much good. Bute is best for musculoskeletal issues. If you had absolutely nothing else, it might be worth trying, but it's really not the right drug for colic. Bute is, of course, always given IV or orally. Bute given IM is it's own separate disaster and, likely, hospital stay.

Ace is strictly a sedative/vasodilator. It will do nothing for pain, but it does help horses relax. If your horse had had it before and you had absolutely nothing else to give, Ace before the trailer ride might help a bit, just keeping the horse quieter. But again, Ace does nothing for pain. So it's going to be a very minimal help, if any. And, in some cases, horses that are already stressed will receive Ace like a stimulant rather than a depressant. I don't know why this happens, and I have never seen it happen personally. I've read it in a couple of different places, though. For these reasons, I wouldn't give a colicky horse Ace. Some people do, though, in conjunction with other drugs that act on pain. Just remember... Ace itself has NO pain relieving attributes.

So, in sum, learn how to give Banamine IV. And since you are so far from your vet, you might ask if there are any sedatives he/she would feel comfortable giving you for this type of situation. If he/she has a bottle that only has about one dose left in it, that would be perfect. That is actually how I get my Banamine. I ask for a nearly empty bottle. He sticks it in a bag with a syringe and needle and calls it the 'One Shot Banamine Kit.' That's much easier to manage than if they give you some already drawn up in a syringe, and much cheaper than buying a new bottle.

ChampionMercedes

Dec. 31, 2007, 05:30 PM

I live in an area with one equine vet within 2 hours away, who is on call usually 4-7 days out of the month. If not on call tough luck. I also have a chronic colicker (usually during major barometric pressure changes) who has already had one surgery.

So my basic plan of action is:

1) Get him up - he isn't the trashing type, usually lays down groans and moans.
2) Take temp & other vitals
3) 10cc IV banamine
4) Get him walking (he has yet to gas colic, usually it's impaction, although his surgery was for a twisted colon)
5) Walk 15 mins, rest 15 mins - continue for an hour or so depending on energy level
6) Check vitals again
7) Let him rest for an hour
8) Turkey baste mineral oil down his throat
9) More walking
10) Start calling vets (9/10 I'm instructed to give more banamine and mineral oil)
11) More banamine & mineral oil
12) More resting - usually after this point he sleeps for a while, I sleep in his stall and wake up to a pooping horse, hasn't gotten past this the last few times. If it does we can take him to several clinics but they are quite far away. I won't put him through another surgery at his age.

With other horses I would seek more consult from the vet off the bat. My guy is very predictable and I would obviously call the vet ASAP if things were not going the "usual" way.

blackstallion

Dec. 31, 2007, 07:23 PM

.... Actually it was the PM feeder who found the horse. I just came over because the boarding barn is literally just behind my house. When I came, the fact that he had been sick for a while plus the fact that his gums were so white and he was so dehydrated made me not feel comfortable in administering Banimine to the horse, as I felt that the vet should have came out, but my vote was over ruled, Banimine was given, and the vet was consulted.....

I'm sorry, I misunderstood that a vet was called. I hope the horse is doing much better by now, or if not, hope the owner is in touch with a better vet willing to come out.

horsetruth

Dec. 31, 2007, 08:16 PM

Call vet, or have someone call vet (depending on severity) If I feel that its "minor" enough I'll take vitals first to give the vet. But if horse is truly distressed I'll call first.

Check vitals heart rate, temp, gum color, gut sounds.

Administer banamine IV- (im not safe, po takes too long... YES I am trained to do an IV shot) regardless if vet has called back. At this point I know they will be coming- if its bad enough for me to call- they are coming.

See what they have/haven't eaten.

If horse is still in pain (and vet okays it) sedate with xylazine/torb.

HOPEFULLY vet is here by now, and I can get them to do what else is needed.

Agree that if possible trailer should be hooked up and ready to go if referral is an option.

AND NO walking a relatively calm horse who is not thrashing is MEAN. GEEESSH people. If you need to take a walk to feel better then do it, but don't drag your sick horse around for the ride. I do LOVE the idea of grooming the horse. Even if it doesn't help it sure does give the owner something to do.

equinelaw

Dec. 31, 2007, 08:40 PM

It sounds like the horse is not doing much better. I hope he turns the corner soon.

He's what I do round this ole' trailer if I suspect its an impaction colic and the horse needs fluids. I do not suggest anyone with a few extra thousand dollors even try it, but I do not have that kind of cash on hand and just traveling to the Vet and being stall bound could kill my hot-house horse.

In the 1990's there was research done on whether a horse could be hydrated orally instead of spending days with expensive IV bags dripping into its system. The answer was yes--but it never really caught on. I do not know why.

If things look really bad and we know its not a twist, then the Vet will leave the tube in my horse and I can pump small amount of water into him around the clock. It works the same way an IV drips does--seeps through and saturates the body with so much water that its hydrates and lubricates the impaction area.

As long as the lump o gunk is at least a few feet down the large intestine, this is just as effective as the IV drip method, but can be performed at home with regualr free water and no need to keep the horse standing still with IV's in him.

I read the research and was convinced the experimental protical was good and the results were the same, so thats what I would do with my horse on my budget with his hate of trailers, strange places and stress.

He is also trianed to drink water out a hose on command. He just has to swallow and I can keep 1-2 qts every 2 hours running through him. He is also usually willing to drink 2-3 gallons of water for the hint of a treat hidden in the bottom of the bucket. I do not like to add any mass to the blockage so I use maybe half a handful of sweet grain in a lot of warm water and stand holding it for him while he plays bob for breakfast. He falls for this very time and never dives to the bottom without sipping up all the water first.

I would say that the only reason I feel OK doing this as opposed to hanging IV drip bags is that my Vet took the time to read the research and agreed it was safe and effective. Most Vets do not have the time to read research on a daily basis. Since my horse likes to colic on holidays, she was willing to read the stuff in order to celebrate X-mass and new years with her family:)

I have no idea if this really works or not since he is not a canidate for surgery so nobody has ver looked around inside him for almost 20 years, but the science behind it is good and sometimes. . . ? Sometimes when its not your horse and you feel like you are standing there helplessly watching someone elses horse die becuase they are poor or not willing to make th effort, its something that most people can be convinced to try.

You just have to be careful not to put more water in then the Vet does withthe oil and water pump dose and that you give the water time to empty before adding more.

Of course it requires you stay up for 24-48 hours untilt he colic is resolved, but thats also part of my standard proceedure--camping out with the horse until its over.

So, since it is now a holiday and my horse has a 70% of coilicing beofre dawn, I have ny bottle of banimine, several empty gallon bottles to fill up with warm house water and a good book ready. Thats my plan:)

blackstallion

Jan. 2, 2008, 06:10 PM

Any updates?

sid

Jan. 2, 2008, 07:01 PM

As an aside, but pertinent to this thread...

How do the posters here know the difference between a gas (spasmodic) colic and a twist?

The initial symptoms can be almost identical, but the treatment and time elapsed for treating/intervening are worlds apart. Life and death difference. How do you know how to make that judgement without veterinary intervention/diagnosis at the outset of the symptoms?

MaresNest

Jan. 3, 2008, 01:00 AM

How do the posters here know the difference between a gas (spasmodic) colic and a twist?

The initial symptoms can be almost identical, but the treatment and time elapsed for treating/intervening are worlds apart. Life and death difference. How do you know how to make that judgement without veterinary intervention/diagnosis at the outset of the symptoms?

Honestly, you don't make that judgement without veterinary intervention.

I know some people like to be self sufficient. I know some people have dealt with incompetent vets in the past and have gotten a bad taste in their mouth. I know that even good vets sometimes make mistakes. I know that sometimes the vet is far away. And, believe me, I understand wanting to save money. But you cannot reliably tell the difference between an innocuous spasmodic colic and something that's heading for (pardon my bluntness) either the operating table or a deep hole in the back pasture, without veterinary intervention.

In the case of a twist, you need a rectal exam and an ultrasound to have a good idea. Even then, depending on where the twist is, you may not be sure. I've seen vets get in six inches on the rectal exam and know immediately that there was a twist, but if it's farther in - beyond the reach of the arm and not in easy sight of the ultrasound - you just don't know for sure until you get the horse open. If you see distended loops of small intestine on ultrasound, and particularly distended loops with feed settled out, you highly suspect some sort of strangulating thing - a twist, a lipoma, or an entrapment/incarceration.

But in terms of things that you and I can do ourselves, the only thing that usually separates a twist from most other colics is that, with a twist (or other strangulating problem), you cannot get control of the horse's pain with drugs. The other thing that throws a wrench into this is that horses all have different pain tolerances. Some have twists and remain stoic about it, just looking depressed. Others have simple impactions and throw themselves around like they're dying. You NEED to do the appropriate diagnostics as soon as you realize something is wrong.

This is why I firmly believe that the vet needs to come for every colic. I know some others don't agree with me, but the several hundred colics I took care of when I worked at the surgical facility showed me that early intervention is critical. I have had my vet out for a relatively minor colic at 1AM before, and I'm not bashful about it. Of course I'd rather that I didn't have to drag the vet out of bed, but a colicking horse is reason enough. Period.

I don't get emotional or panicky about colics - I just have a firm 'nip it in the bud' policy. If at all possible, I want to catch things while there's still time to fix them. I believe in gathering all the information you possibly can as soon as you possibly can. I get the CRT, gum color/moisture, heart rate, and GI sounds in all 4 quadrants, call and report to the vet, and watch the horse until the vet arrives, walking if needed, giving Banamine only in a worst case scenario. (Worse Case Scenario = vet will be a long time in arriving, or horse clearly in terrible pain.)