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Manes&Tails
Dec. 28, 2007, 01:13 AM
Do you ever use a surcingle, lunge with the bit, tie their head around.

I am a western, some times English rider and I am having a debate on another forum about needing to get a horse broke in the face.

I would love to hear your secret about getting a horse on the bit.

sublimequine
Dec. 28, 2007, 01:18 AM
Hey folks, this is the user who told a person with a young, fresh horse to lunge the horse with their head tied down to make the horse behave. When I said how unsafe and just overall bad that was, we started a 'debate'. :lol:

Have fun with this Hoot, it should get real interesting. ;)

citydog
Dec. 28, 2007, 01:18 AM
"Broke in the face"? What a nasty way to put it.

There is no "secret" beyond taking the time it takes to do it systematically and correctly.

Yes longeing with a surcingle and side reins is part of it, but it's not a matter of cranking the horse in to a particular headset, if that's what you're getting at.

At least it shouldn't be.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Dec. 28, 2007, 01:18 AM
NO.

Getting them to relax their jaw and be supple is only a small part of being on the bit. Go to the momentum thread - slc2 has written some wonderful posts that describe it well.

I would venture to say that tieing a horse's head around would do the very opposite of what you would want to achieve. It certainly wouldn't instill trust or further the partnership, in my opinion.

Manes&Tails
Dec. 28, 2007, 01:20 AM
Hey folks, this is the user who told a person with a young, fresh horse to lunge the horse with their head tied down to make the horse behave. When I said how unsafe and just overall bad that was, we started a 'debate'. :lol:

Have fun with this Hoot, it should get real interesting. ;)

I think dressage is a great way to ride a horse. My western riding friends take lessons from a dressage rider. I want to know how they get their horses on the bit.

At least I am trying to learn, you are just picking.

~Freedom~
Dec. 28, 2007, 01:20 AM
I am having a debate on another forum about needing to get a horse broke in the face.

Sorry but breaking a horse's face in not in my training guides.


I would love to heard your secret about getting a horse on the bit.

So would a lot of people, in fact there are tons of books and articles that you can read on the net and otherwise. This is too vast a topic to be able to cover in one or several posts. I also don't give training advise over the net as each situation is different but there are some here that love to expound on their vast knowledge so I will leave it to them to post a mini novel.

sublimequine
Dec. 28, 2007, 01:22 AM
I think dressage is a great way to ride a horse. My western riding friends take lessons from a dressage rider. I want to know how they get their horses on the bit.

At least I am trying to learn, you are just picking.

I TOLD you that's not how it's done, so did showjumper. You argued anyways. :lol:

Maybe the big resounding 'no' you'll get from these folks will get the message across. :)

Manes&Tails
Dec. 28, 2007, 01:29 AM
I TOLD you that's not how it's done, so did showjumper. You argued anyways. :lol:

Maybe the big resounding 'no' you'll get from these folks will get the message across. :)

So all the people that use surcingles are wrong?

sublimequine
Dec. 28, 2007, 01:32 AM
So all the people that use surcingles are wrong?

All the people who use surcingles in the way you suggested, yes, are wrong. Surcingles can't be used in place of training, and will not make a horse go round and accept the bit properly. A horse can be as hollow as ever with the hind end completely disengaged with side reins, unlike what you said.

Showjumper28
Dec. 28, 2007, 01:37 AM
All the people who use surcingles in the way you suggested, yes, are wrong. Surcingles can't be used in place of training, and will not make a horse go round and accept the bit properly. A horse can be as hollow as ever with the hind end completely disengaged with side reins, unlike what you said.

I feel like we are beating a dead horse, no pun intended.

Hoof -- A horse can not relax when being forced! What part don't you get? And to get a horse supple and working properly through the body requires them to be relaxed and willing.... Sigh...

It's people like you that give western riders a bad rep.

sublimequine
Dec. 28, 2007, 01:39 AM
I feel like we are beating a dead horse, no pun intended.

Hoof -- A horse can not relax when being forced! What part don't you get? And to get a horse supple and working properly through the body requires them to be relaxed and willing.... Sigh...

It's people like you that give western riders a bad rep.

I know, I feel the same way. I should just back away slowly from this thread, too. :lol:

kaluha2
Dec. 28, 2007, 03:55 AM
"I am a western, some times English rider and I am having a debate on another forum about needing to get a horse broke in the face."

Hoot: what other forum are you having this debate on? Maybe with more info we will be able to help you more.

angel
Dec. 28, 2007, 06:34 AM
I suspect that you are still very young. The question you ask about getting a horse "broke in the face" is really just western jargon that is not at all accurate for any good snaffle bit horse. This would be more a statement you might make for a plodding, four-beat canter western pleasure horse. When you ask your question, you need to understand that true horse training takes many years to learn. You have to have a feeling for when the horse is correctly positioned, and understand the take and release to achieve that position. Teaching the horse to correctly flex to the bit and stay balanced within the contact takes months, and there is no short term fix if you want a true connection...not just a headset. Tie downs create just a headset, with no ability to bring the hindquarters into alignment. Dressage is like reining rather than western pleasure, and for that, you need a horse working off its rear end. If you truely want to learn the correct methods, you need to look around for someone who is really good at starting snaffle bit horses. Since you have no experience as yet, it will be even difficult for you to find a qualified person. If that person uses a surcingle with only an inside siderein shortened enough that the horse's head is held even with the point of its shoulder, that's okay. If the siderein is any tighter than that, you need to keep looking for a different trainer. This is not much contact being created when the siderein is adjusted in such a fashion, and it is designed only to help the horse understand to follow its nose with its whole body. Many more steps must come after that to establish correct contact, but use that one, key point of the training to help you gage the ability of an unknown trainer at this point in your learning curve.

Kementari
Dec. 28, 2007, 06:54 AM
The first secret is that getting a horse "on the bit" is about your seat and legs, NOT about being "broke in the face." :eek: :eek: Acceptance of the bit is also key, of course, but if you are just thinking of the face, you are going the wrong direction entirely.

Rusty Stirrup
Dec. 28, 2007, 07:09 AM
"Above all, during every early schooling the horse should stretch out and learn to have confidence little by little. It is only by giving mobility to the hindquarters, while disregarding the forehand completely, that the rider will feel that the young horse gradually finds his equilibrium, starting to feel confidence in the hands of the rider as he gently pushes his head forward, placing the base of the neck in a proper position as a result of the impulsion he has acquired".

"From the very beginning what most matters is the instantaneous forward movement; anything deleted from the impulsion is bad for the progression of the training".

"In order to reduce to a minimum the problems and resistances which arise in the course of training the horse, it is necessary to have patience, gentleness and some intelligence. The horse will become accustomed to the aids little by little if you familiarise him with them gradually thus he will be prepared for demands to be made on him, which will then become easy for him to execute".

"The correct lowering of the haunches will provoke the elevation of the forehand, never the contrary".

Nuno Oliveira

slc2
Dec. 28, 2007, 07:18 AM
Hoot, nobody's picking.

"All the people who use surcingles are wrong"

Quite a few are. If they're using side reins to hold their horse's head in and make him be in a pretty looking pose with his nose in!!!!

And there are people that do that (read on).

On most bulletin boards, anyone can say any dang fool thing s/he wants about dressage, because there won't be anything but a bunch of starry eyed kids on the bulletin board and they don't know anything about dressage EITHER.

OK. So here, you have FEI (top level) riders as well as lower level riders, many of whom have won awards, medals and scored very well in recognized (USEF, FEI) competition.

You have the bronze medalist from the Pan Am games on here. You have Lendon Gray, who has been riding internationally for nearly 40 years and heads up the best dressage instruction program in the United States. You have people with decades of experience training, showing, teaching and breeding dressage horses. You have people who have bought top class European warmbloods and imported them and compete on them here, you have people who have painstakingly trained horses of every breed type and background to do dressage, working with the best coaches available. You have people who have written books - GOOD BOOKS, on dressage. How to compete, how to train - everything.

The problem is that you are coming at this 'on the bit' thing like it's a matter of 'how do I get my horse to hold his head down and in all the time', and that is just not what we do in dressage.

"Broke in the face" just isn't how a dressage trainer thinks of this business at all. That's where you're running into a problem.

"Broke in the face" is a part of Western riding. You pull on the one rein, the horse bends his neck around to your knee. You touch the reins, he puts his head in towards his chest.

That is about 100% the OPPOSITE of what we want.

Alot of people are trying to make dressage be like other types of riding, where the horse is taught to drop the bit, give to the bit, bend his neck way around this way and that, hey, I watch RFD TV too, I have seen how most riding styles train horses, LOL (no actually I have done all the other types populare in the USA - gaited, hunt seat, western, so I know how different dressage is).

In fact, dressage is just NOT like other types of riding.

Dressage people who have any understanding of dressage at all, don't use ANYTHING to 'get the horse on the bit'.

Nothing. Nada. Not side reins, draw reins, martingales, nothing.

Dressage is NOT where you put a black saddle on a horse and then start riding him like any other type of riding. It just isn't. It's totally different.

Sure, a lot of people think the same as you. They get REAL excited when they find if they jerk the reins back and forth just right, the horse puts his head down and tucks his head in. And there's a WHOLE lot of people jogging around on their horses in backyards all over the USA, thinking 'now I've got 'im! He's Doin' Dress-ajh!'

Well he ain't. And if they go to any decent dressage trainer in the United States, that trainer will tell them, 'That isn't dressage'. And most likely, the HORSE will tell them too, because as soon as they get out of a walk or jog, that head is going to pop back up, unless they keep a stranglehold on the reins!!!

'on the bit' is not about 'how do I get Sparky to 'assume the position''

On the bit, in fact, has very little to do with where the horse is holding his head, or how. That's the first and biggest mistake people make when they first get interested in dressage.

No, in fact, we don't do ANYTHING to get the horse in that position. Nothing.

No ying-yangin', jerkin' the reins, 'bumping him on the mouth with the bit', 'spongeing the reins', pulling on the outside and yankin' on the inside rein, Nuthin.

Most of learning dressage is about UNLEARNING what you first think :yes:

egontoast
Dec. 28, 2007, 08:02 AM
Have you ever gone sailing or flown a kite? You can't 'make' the boat sail or the kite fly by force or by twiddling the ropes. You have to set up all the right conditions and counter energies to allow it to happen.

That doesn't mean it's all flakey and airy fairy and gumdrops and butterflies. Your boat won't sail and your kite won't fly if you take that approach either.

There's a 'science' to it and that's why it takes skill, training and time. If your friends have a good dressage trainer, go and watch.

It's not about getting the horse to drop behind the bit and it's not breaking the face or whatever you called it.

AnotherRound
Dec. 28, 2007, 08:07 AM
I have been riding all of my life, including at a western roping barn, where the folks there have national championships in ALL areas of western competition (and I mean National, top, first, in team roping, western pleasure, calf roping, bronc riding), and I have never, ever heard of breaking a horse in the face, and have never ever seen any kind of training there that I don't respect, even though I don't use their techniques or want my horses to go like theirs. What surprises me most about this poster's topic is that she has read the discussions, SLC, by the very top trainers and riders you point out, and she knows the basis, at least, of the answer to her question, and has been told this before, yet chooses to argue about it, densely. She's either trying to be argumentative or is unable to learn by reading. Remember, this is the poster who asked what gophers look like and how they act, and seems unable to read or google simple topics to educmacate herself. You know - the one with a "Principle" for a grandmother. :uhoh:

Unbelievable.

Classical DQ
Dec. 28, 2007, 08:39 AM
There is no 'secret' to Training a horse to Accept the bit. It was developed hundreds of years ago. It begins with the trainer educating himself!! A good beginning is reading everything you can find on classical dressage training!

YankeeLawyer
Dec. 28, 2007, 08:43 AM
I haven't read all the replies, but, first of all, I think it helps if you thnk about riding the horse from back to front, not front to back. With my youngsters, I don't worry too much about where their head is, and I certainly do not do anything to force it into place. My primary focus is on getting them forward and relaxed. Once you have got them forward and supple through the back, they tend to naturally want to be round through the topline. The goal is to get them where they are carrying themselves and respond to the lightest of aids.

If you attempt to force them into a frame by forcing their heads down, at best what you get is a horse that only has its head down, but it won't be supple through the back and its hindlegs would not be engaged but rather would be trailing out somewhere behind.

Petstorejunkie
Dec. 28, 2007, 08:49 AM
i think what h&t is describing is the western equivalent of rollkur.
I used to board at a WP barn and have seen it practiced, I personally am not a fan since most western horses travel behind the verticle evading the bit rather than accepting contact.

GreekDressageQueen
Dec. 28, 2007, 08:50 AM
Well, I'm not trying to defend Hoof here, but I think some people are getting up in arms over the term "broke in the face" without considering what that means and getting emotional about it. We often say a horse is "broke" to ride or "green broke" and nobody (well, at least people I know) don't get upset over the term or consider it barbaric. I consider "broke in the face" simply another discipline's term for getting the horse to yield to the bit and "keep their head down." It doesn't necessarily mean that this term equates bad horsemanship or use of cruel methods - although it very well could be. Forget how the individual words are put together and evaluate the term based on what it means (and not what picture it conjures up in your head.) :)

AnotherRound
Dec. 28, 2007, 08:56 AM
I think some people are getting up in arms over the term "broke in the face" without considering what that means and getting emotional about it.

I think H&T described what she meant very well. It seems, from her mouth, that 'grabbing' a horse's face and pulling it around, or tying it down, or tying it to the side is a style of discipline meant to teach a horse a lesson about behaviour, and about headset. You can re-word it, if you like, but I think H&T's words should speak for themselves, and are not at all as simplistic or thoughtful as you have re-interpreted it. Tieing a horse's head around isn't what you are describing, and she knows this.

GreekDressageQueen
Dec. 28, 2007, 09:01 AM
Dressage people who have any understanding of dressage at all, don't use ANYTHING to 'get the horse on the bit'.

Nothing. Nada. Not side reins, draw reins, martingales, nothing.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I respect and agree with pretty much everything you said, but this statement is just way over the top. You can't just throw such a broad and over-generalized statement like that out there that is obviously SO untrue and not get some backlash. I know dozens of top dressage riders in several different countries that use these things (side reins, long reins, draw reins, martingales, etc) with great success. If you use these things as training tools then it doesn't make you less of a dressage rider. If you use these things to achieve or force a certain frame, then you are probably using them incorrectly. Using these things is not inherently incorrect dressage riding but how one uses them can make a difference.

WildBlue
Dec. 28, 2007, 09:51 AM
i think what h&t is describing is the western equivalent of rollkur.
I used to board at a WP barn and have seen it practiced, I personally am not a fan since most western horses travel behind the verticle evading the bit rather than accepting contact.


You summed it up much better than I could. I do have personal experience with horses trained using the techniques she describes. All were afraid of the bit and resented being asked to flex or yield. Frankly, I now use those techniques as a measure of 'trainers'--those who practice it are automatically off my list.

egontoast
Dec. 28, 2007, 09:52 AM
Dressage people who have any understanding of dressage at all, don't use ANYTHING to 'get the horse on the bit'.

Nothing. Nada. Not side reins, draw reins, martingales, nothing.


I guess Klimke was not a dressage person. Side reins/surcingle is a useful tool for training a horse to seek the bit (back to front). It's only a problem if used incorrectly (to tie the head down, to force the horse onto the bit, if used front to back).

Slc uses nothing to get her horse on the bit. No tack, no aids? Youtube is waiting for this miracle .

creseida
Dec. 28, 2007, 10:00 AM
Here's a novel idea. Why don't you do what your friends are doing and take lessons too? That way, you will learn what to do and why we do it. You will learn that "on the bit" is not about the horse's head, but about engagement from behind. It doesn't happen overnight. Tying your horse's head down never achieves anything except a tense and sometimes pissed off horse. It only teaches them to resent you.

If you resented someone, would you want to put forth your best effort to please them? Think about it.

CatOnLap
Dec. 28, 2007, 10:01 AM
"broke in the face" is western jargon
"on the bit" is dressage jargon.

If your dressage horse was truly "on" the bit, he'd pull you over his head.
The jargon means submissive and attentive to the aides while in self carriage.

"Broke in the face" is exactly that. In western equitation, ideally the aides are as light as possible, so as to be practically invisible. In western pleasure, the horse is expected to carry himself and be very obedient and appear effortless. Sound familiar to some dressage riders?

The way of going may be somewhat different, but the terms are equivalent, if highly idiosyncratic.

Those who truly understand dressage by having ridden and trained it, will know there are many many ways to achieve this. There is a tried and true method of achieving it through classical training scales. However, even the most classical trainers will sometimes recommend the use of side reins, long reins, surcingles and longeing.

Equibrit
Dec. 28, 2007, 10:09 AM
Place the bit on the floor.
Place horse on top.

Voy la - horse on the bit.

That should suffice for you!

STF
Dec. 28, 2007, 10:13 AM
With my youngsters, I don't worry too much about where their head is, and I certainly do not do anything to force it into place. My primary focus is on getting them forward and relaxed. Once you have got them forward and supple through the back, they tend to naturally want to be round through the topline. The goal is to get them where they are carrying themselves and respond to the lightest of aids.

Amen Vern!!!

STF
Dec. 28, 2007, 10:14 AM
"on the bit" is dressage jargon.



I LOATH that term......... if its ever used around here, someone gets a smack in the back of the head.

egontoast
Dec. 28, 2007, 10:18 AM
'on the aids ' is a better description

JB
Dec. 28, 2007, 10:22 AM
The thread where this "debate" started:
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=127448

"Broke in the face" is indeed a Western term. Those who said the difference between Western ridden horses and Dressage ridden horses was right - the amount of contact on the D horse would pull a W rider over his head.

It IS desirable for the Western horse to be so "broke" in his face that he needs milligrams of pressure from a looped rein to to what he's asked, and most of his cues come purely from seat aids, nothing else. To have a Dressage horse like that would mean a lot of dressage couldn't be done in the manner in which it's required. Western folks think their horses are impulsive and engaged and carrying themselves, and the REALLY good ones can be. But the degree to which they are is NOTHING like what's required of upper level Dressage horses, and that higher degree requires more contact. Dressage horses are soft in the jaw, not "broke in the face". They accept the contact required and don't pull against it.

Now, that all said, I'll stand by what most folks on the other thread said - no, you don't "grab the horse's face" with side lines and tie his head to the saddle or between his legs and work him until he submits. I don't care if it's Western or English riding, I don't care who does it, it's not the best thing to do.

meupatdoes
Dec. 28, 2007, 10:26 AM
If getting my horse "broke in the face" was my objective, it seems like the best way to go about it would be to whack it across the forehead with a two by four. The harder you whack, the broker it gets. Voila.

I disagree with the people who say that people who know what they are doing NEVER ride in side reins and the like, as I have seen skilled riders on both sides of the Atlantic ride in them, and I regularly see professional bereiters use them here in Germany. However, the key point here is that these pros REALLY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING. For someone who is just learning, use of these artificial aids will obscure the feel. You need the feel first, THEN after a lot of practice you can use feel first and the artificial aids second to tweak small aspects of your overall ride. I would certainly not use artificial aids without the supervision of a professional if I were the OP.

For the OP, there's really nothing anyone can type in a box that will teach you this. If you really want to learn, save up some cash for lessons, and post a post asking about good trainers in your area.

Etcher1
Dec. 28, 2007, 10:38 AM
((We often say a horse is "broke" to ride or "green broke" and nobody (well, at least people I know) don't get upset over the term or consider it barbaric.))
There is nothing to be upset about here.

Broke in the face is a whole 'nother story.

Nomoreusernames
Dec. 28, 2007, 10:40 AM
If getting my horse "broke in the face" was my objective, it seems like the best way to go about it would be to whack it across the forehead with a two by four. The harder you whack, the broker it gets. Voila.

Is that how Arabs get dishy faces??

CatOnLap
Dec. 28, 2007, 10:41 AM
I have never heard the term "broke in the face" before, and I grew up with QHs.
I probably wouldn't advertise that.

I liked Equibrit's definition of "On the bit".
There's an old Booger cartoonist named LaVieEnBoog who would do a smashing cartoon of that if she lurks here.

Dalfan
Dec. 28, 2007, 10:41 AM
needing to get a horse broke in the face.

Could you possibly be talking about getting a horse used to the bit?

And tying the horses head to the saddle or it's tail (a WP thing) does not result in a "give to the bit". All you are doing with that technique is exhausting the neck, kinda like roll-kur.

Etcher1
Dec. 28, 2007, 10:46 AM
((Is that how Arabs get dishy faces??))

Please tell me your joking...

Equibrit
Dec. 28, 2007, 10:47 AM
Unfortunately,if you take the OP seriously, you are in grave danger of creating a monster.

~Freedom~
Dec. 28, 2007, 10:47 AM
I probably wouldn't advertise that.

I liked Equibrit's definition of "On the bit".
There's an old Booger cartoonist named LaVieEnBoog who would do a smashing cartoon of that if she lurks here.

We need to get the stick art artists up here to diagram out what is really meant by this.

sm
Dec. 28, 2007, 10:49 AM
Do you ever use a surcingle, lunge with the bit, tie their head around.
Actually this is a fair question after what Coby van Baalen's barn is about.

Hoot, maybe this will help, I'm choosing videos over books so you can "see":

(1) A Matter of Trust Vol. I
Volume I covers the basic guidelines for equine behavior, movement,
gaits, physical and mental characteristics of the horse as well as the
training plan for the first year. The first half looks at the horse, the
rider, timing of the aids, movement and correct use of seat and aids.
The second half gives a detailed lesson plan for establishing a solid
foundation.
115 minutes VHS or 230 minutes DVD
http://www.walterzettl.net/pages/booksatapes.html

(2) A Matter of Trust Vol. II
Volume II introduces collection, correct frame, rythm, tempo, and self
carriage. The video uses slow motion close-ups and detailed descriptions of movements with accompanying graphics.
60 minutes VHS or 175 minutes DVD
http://www.walterzettl.net/pages/booksatapes.html

Or check out anything Walter Zettl has written. Good luck and happy new year to you.

Etcher1
Dec. 28, 2007, 10:49 AM
Hmm, it does help to read the whole post/reply, doesn't it.

Nomoreusernames
Dec. 28, 2007, 10:57 AM
((Is that how Arabs get dishy faces??))

Please tell me your joking...

You have to ask?????

Kcisawesome
Dec. 28, 2007, 10:59 AM
How do dressage riders get their horses heads tucked in and their necks arched?

The awnser is that they don't THINK about their horses head.

They start with teaching the horse to maintain a steady rythm in his gaits. They teah the horse to relax his muscles. They teach the horse to strectch down on his own. They teach the horse to move streched and freely. They teach the horse to use both sides of his body evenly. They teach the horse to rock back onto his hindquarters. They teach the horse to reach his hind legs farther and farther under himself. They teach him to rock farther and farther back on his hindquarters. They teach him to stay relaxed and supple but to pull his body together like a coiled spring. They teach him to understand his own body so that he can move in all directions.

And as the horse learns all those things he becomes lighter on his forehand, his neck comes up out of his shouder and since he is relaxed and supple, his head loosens to where it is quite comfortable which happens to be just in front of the vertical.

Dressage is about teaching the horse to be a willing partner and making him an athlete. A willing partner is one who trys to do the right thing and WANTs to please you.

You are not going to make a willing partner by forcing the horse into anything.

Etcher1
Dec. 28, 2007, 11:04 AM
Yes I did, I had a bit of a slow moment going on, and didn't even read your whole post. May I say that I felt horrendously stupid after reading that?

Petstorejunkie
Dec. 28, 2007, 11:05 AM
Slc uses nothing to get her horse on the bit. No tack, no aids? Youtube is waiting for this miracle .

it's not SLC, and nope, not on youtube, and dangit no miracle :winkgrin: just thought you'd like to know that it does exist
http://www.hauteecole.ru/en/photogallery.php?id=34&gid=1&min=27
here's a link to the whole gallery
http://www.hauteecole.ru/en/photogallery.php

FancyFree
Dec. 28, 2007, 11:09 AM
I guess Klimke was not a dressage person. Side reins/surcingle is a useful tool for training a horse to seek the bit (back to front). It's only a problem if used incorrectly (to tie the head down, to force the horse onto the bit, if used front to back).

Slc uses nothing to get her horse on the bit. No tack, no aids? Youtube is waiting for this miracle .

:yes:

She should market her "secret" and make a gabillion dollars! :lol:

If the OP is serious, which I'm still not sure, Klimke does have a good book called: "Basic Training of the Young Horse". It's very informative.

egontoast
Dec. 28, 2007, 11:18 AM
just thought you'd like to know that it does exist

WHAT exists? Riding a horse set in a frame without tack is cute but it's no better than riding a horse set in a frame with tack. You have to have an elastic connection/ contact to complete the circle of the aids.

More evidence that people don't 'get ' it.

philosoraptor
Dec. 28, 2007, 11:20 AM
I think this is a spinoff of a topic Horse Care, in response to When Lungeing, Roundpenning and Groundwork Don't Calm Your Horse (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=2894959#post2894959) Hoot and Tick replied:


You need to get hold of the horses face, tie his head down with reins to the side of the saddle. I also run my reins between the front legs and tie them on top of the saddle, and this is on a horse that has been worked many times and wont flip over backwards.

I only have to round pen her about 15 min, then all done and ready for a nice ride.

You have to find away to get hold of the horses face. Calms them down every time.


Hoot&Tick: nobody I know of talks about "breaking a horse's face". The kind of people I like to ride with also don't force a headset (which is what I think you might mean?) When everything else is in place in dressage, the head should follow naturally.

Can you explain how tightly restraining the horse's head during pre-ride roundpen work calms a horse? What is the reason for this working?

STF
Dec. 28, 2007, 11:21 AM
Unfortunately,if you take the OP seriously, you are in grave danger of creating a monster.


That is what I was about to say.
Obviously from the other posts this is a old subject with this person.

Me thinks someone is bored today and trying to light a fire under some DQ butts.

;)

egontoast
Dec. 28, 2007, 11:23 AM
True. I was taking it at face value. OOps.

slc2
Dec. 28, 2007, 12:18 PM
There ya go again egon! If there is any possible way to find something to pick at, you'll find it, LOL!

No, a skilled trainer CAN use side reins and other training aids when necessary - but he doesn't use them to force his horse into a fake posture.

As the saying goes, 'Only skilled trainers can use these things correctly, and they don't usually need them'.

I spent 20 years in one barn, and never saw the draw reins get used by that trainer. Not once. She said she had used them once - ten years before. That's not alot.

As for side reins, yes, they are, in fact, very often misused, and yes, experienced people do tend to use them more wisely and more beneficially.

We had a gal at one barn who loudly yelled, 'Look, my horse is in a 4th level frame!' when she longed him with short side reins. His hind legs were trailing along like a daschund's in a slipped disc buggy, and his back was hollowed out like the Little Rascal's horse, ROFLMAO!

She didn't even KNOW how incorrect it was. Ignorance is bliss, I guess - ha ha! Til she went to a new trainer who told her the truth, then she was REAL pee-oh'd, ROFMLAO!

S/he now knows better. Like other successful trainers, she uses seat, rein and leg aids, doing very ordinary exercises, no extreme bends or cranking the horse's head around, or tieing his head to the side, to produce that 'dressage look'.

THAT is the point.

What people like Hoot and Tick need to learn, is that these side reins, draw reins, surcingles, yadda yadda yadda, do not produce an on the bit horse - the skill of the rider does....and most of the time that rider does that using very, very simple equipment.

And yes, one can ALSO do it wrong with just a plain snaffle bit, too!

What people are mixed up about is they think that dressage is produced by artificial means - extended trot with roller chains, piaffe with a whip on the legs, the head posture by pulling back and forth on the reins.

It just doesn't work.

A trainer I worked with said to a Young Rider after she got a blue ribbon with her pony at a little show, by teaching her pony to hold its head in by ying-yangin' on the reins, 'You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people, all of the time'. She further said, 'You can fool some people who don't know, you'll never fool anyone that understands how it's supposed to be done'.

Even if someone thinks it looks pretty, tieing the horses head to one side and teaching him to hold his head in like a trick isn't dressage. It doesn't score well, and it doesn't serve as a sound basis for more advanced training.

Another poster ran over here too to tell us just how stubborn Hoot and Tick is, and that she's been told 'MANY TIMES' that this just isn't how a dressage horse is developed.

I smell troll - a pair of trolls, in fact, we've got bigger fish to fry today than to get all up in arms about a couple of people who like to pick at eachother on the internet. As if that's something new these two invented.

I have no sympathy for people who don't want to learn - but I have even LESS sympathy for people who loudly go around informing everyone else that that's the case.

JB
Dec. 28, 2007, 12:51 PM
Hoot&Tick: nobody I know of talks about "breaking a horse's face".

To be fair, it IS a Western term - "Get the horse broke in the face", meaning get him to give to the SLIGHTEST hint of contact. For those folks, it IS desirable, given their disciplines. For the rest of us, it's not desirable.

Tiki
Dec. 28, 2007, 12:53 PM
The best way I know of to get a horse 'broke in the face' is to hit it REALLY hard in the face with a 2x4!!!;):winkgrin::lol:

FancyFree
Dec. 28, 2007, 01:31 PM
Another poster ran over here too to tell us just how stubborn Hoot and Tick is, and that she's been told 'MANY TIMES' that this just isn't how a dressage horse is developed.

I smell troll - a pair of trolls, in fact, we've got bigger fish to fry today than to get all up in arms about a couple of people who like to pick at eachother on the internet. As if that's something new these two invented.



Another Round is a troll? Is that who you're referring to? Where'd she run over from? The Litterbox?

I don't think either are trolls. H&T just has an unfortunate way of phrasing her posts. LOL.

Eclectic Horseman
Dec. 28, 2007, 01:31 PM
Personally, I don't care what western trainers do or what they call it. Whatever it is, dressage trainers don't do it. Concepts are completely different. Terminology is completely different.

So OP, forget about it. If you want to learn dressage and not just carry on an internet flame war--then read a book, learn the concepts, get a trainer, whatever.

The rest of you, don't feed the trolls. :no:

europa
Dec. 28, 2007, 01:45 PM
You are asking the wrong people for advice. We don't use tie downs to force our horses to put their noses on the ground. This is why I now hate to see QH shows. I grew up with QHs at my first barn and loved how they went with a natural head set.....not anymore!

I think all the trainers that do this to their horses need to come to my house and rig up my 17.1 1500 WB tank and they will find out what broke in the face is all about!

carolprudm
Dec. 28, 2007, 01:48 PM
((Is that how Arabs get dishy faces??))

Please tell me your joking...

You have to ask?????
Yup, that is kind of scarry

seeuatx
Dec. 28, 2007, 02:01 PM
You are asking the wrong people for advice. We don't use tie downs to force our horses to put their noses on the ground. This is why I now hate to see QH shows. I grew up with QHs at my first barn and loved how they went with a natural head set.....not anymore!

I think all the trainers that do this to their horses need to come to my house and rig up my 17.1 1500 WB tank and they will find out what broke in the face is all about!

I have pretty much the same experience... just substitute the 17.1 WB for my old 16.1 TB. I still remember my first few months on that horse... trying to learn how to correctly bring a horse onto the aids after having my QH mare. I was going around and around, circles...straight lines...serpentines with said TB's head straight up (because I was bugging him with my hands trying to place his head). Finally in one short side of a serpentine I happened to ride him deeper into the corner and soften my hands... He came under himself and his head came down. My trainer yells "see... now *that* is "on the bit"". ah hah... lightbulb turns on :yes:

Xhltsalute
Dec. 28, 2007, 02:15 PM
Haven't read the other posts.

BROKE IN THE FACE????? HUH????:confused:

I once had a trainer who had a stallion that was "broke in the face" after he ran into an apple tree (it was night time) in has paddock. She certainly never wanted him to be "broke in the face".

NOMIOMI1
Dec. 28, 2007, 02:19 PM
WHAT exists? Riding a horse set in a frame without tack is cute but it's no better than riding a horse set in a frame with tack. You have to have an elastic connection/ contact to complete the circle of the aids.

More evidence that people don't 'get ' it.

Egon I was thinking the same thing and there it was. I saw that pic and immediately thought of off of the bit and aids.

I've heard all the lingo "Sore the mouth" "Drop the bit" "Rock him back".

Multiple world champion western pleasure trainer Cleve Wells says several times in his clinics that the horse has to let go of that bit before he can hold his own pleasure frame completely rocked back. He then deminstrates moving and see sawing the bit and the horse completely opens his mouth letting it slide around without breaking stride. (Dont shoot the messenger here)

WhatzUp
Dec. 28, 2007, 02:38 PM
Place the bit on the floor.
Place horse on top.

Voy la - horse on the bit.

That should suffice for you!

Dammit, I always KNEW there was a trick ! :cool:

Yours in sport,

Lynn

rabicon
Dec. 28, 2007, 02:45 PM
My trainer sent me this, I posted it in good movers in the eventing forum but I'll post it here for you OP. IMO this horse is well engaged and on the bit, not a fake headset. I'm new at this as well and correct me if I'm wrong but in the passage you can see the freedom this mare has because of the engagement of her hindquarters. This is what you truely want when you have your horse on the bit in dressage. It's roundness and engagement not pretty head only. I've went through this and I understand where your coming from but I got a GREAT trainer and off we go learning correctly. Its a WHOLE NOTHER world from hunter/jumpers and western. I'm sorry it is, I've rode them both and this is ALOT HARDER and you have to have the dedication to do it and the patience because it takes ALOT of time.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=zKQgTiqhPbw&feature=related

~Freedom~
Dec. 28, 2007, 02:48 PM
I smell troll - a pair of trolls, in fact, we've got bigger fish to fry today than to get all up in arms about a couple of people who like to pick at each other on the internet. As if that's something new these two invented.


I caught a barracuda once. Boy was that a BIG fish. Never fried him though, didn't have the heart. I just let him go back to his family.:)


Another poster ran over here too to tell us just how stubborn Hoot and Tick is, and that she's been told 'MANY TIMES' that this just isn't how a dressage horse is developed.

SLC what difference does it make that someone informs us of HOW this came to being. From the first post I thought it generated from another forum outside of this site and did wonder how it started so that piece of information was important to me and probably to others.

europa
Dec. 28, 2007, 02:54 PM
Okay........let's not let this thread go south and discuss how roping headsets hurt your nether regions or anything of that nature!!

LLama at the mounting block and patiently waiting with his new tie down on.

fiona
Dec. 28, 2007, 02:56 PM
The best way I know of to get a horse 'broke in the face' is to hit it REALLY hard in the face with a 2x4!!!
Or a shovel. That would do it.
Alternatively, you could throttle the rider wait till rigor mortis set in and then bash the horse over the head with the corpse for not dispatching them sooner.

asb_own_me
Dec. 28, 2007, 02:57 PM
The threads continue to be started and people continue to respond.....

How do we get the OP broke?

fiona
Dec. 28, 2007, 02:58 PM
see above.

asb_own_me
Dec. 28, 2007, 03:02 PM
Fiona :lol:

LisaB
Dec. 28, 2007, 03:11 PM
Okay, I think what she's trying to say is 'submission'
This the elementary step towards being 'on the bit'. But that will come later in life.
Right now, submission is well, submission. Your horse submits to the pressure. Where ever it may be.
So before we jump the gun about back to front, front to back, on the bit, above the bit, around the moon, we need to discuss the element of submission.
While those freaking dumb asses on RFDTV are yanking the horses around, what they are really trying to do is have the horse submit under pressure. Albeit crude and retarded.
You see, I've been having to work on this submission thing with Winston for quite some time now. Given that he's a draft cross and with baggage, he knows his strength and he's wicked smart. So, I've quite in tuned to this for a few years now. Luckily, he likes eventing so I just let him do his thing.
Anyway, submission. I could write a whole chapter on this but not do it justice. There are tons of classical dressage books out there. But really, that helps but for me, I need to see how it's done.
So, Hoot, if you're really interested in really learning about horsemanship and communication, get thee to a dressage instructor. Dressage is the essence of communication between horse and rider and very cool stuff even if it looks boring as hell.

mairzeadoats
Dec. 28, 2007, 03:14 PM
I have absolutely no desire whatsoever to get my horse broke in the face.

He has, unfortunately, on a couple occasions tried to get me broke in the face. A couple hard whacks, but so far my face remains intact for better or worse. :p

atr
Dec. 28, 2007, 03:17 PM
Dressage is the essence of communication between horse and rider and very cool stuff even if it looks boring as hell.


Perfect :)

mairzeadoats
Dec. 28, 2007, 03:17 PM
I LOATH that term......... if its ever used around here, someone gets a smack in the back of the head.

The only phrase I hate more than "on the bit" is "in a frame." Need puking icon here. :rolleyes:

I can live with "on the aids" though. :yes:

petitefilly
Dec. 28, 2007, 04:29 PM
The best way I know of to get a horse 'broke in the face' is to hit it REALLY hard in the face with a 2x4!!!;):winkgrin::lol:

GAWD____ you took my answer!!!!!! Drats, after things go well in the stall tying his tail to his face you go out and take a big stick and whack him four to ten times in the head, then his face is broken. How easy is that????

I tell 'ya youngsters just can't take a broke face and be good in the bit. They'll need this at least ten times, maybe twenty, depends on how big your stick is.


:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):) :):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):) :):):):)

<seriously, why do people ask these questions--- is it a full moon, or what?>

merrygoround
Dec. 28, 2007, 04:40 PM
Not a full moon!!! Someone just forgot to look under the bridge. Any question that ignorant requires a 2x4 to the asker. :) :) :) :) :)

goeslikestink
Dec. 28, 2007, 04:43 PM
dressage isnt about strenght
its about movment-- moving in tune to the horse horse movement like a dancer and a pieice of music

lets see- swan lake--- dressage in tune with one self and beats and rtyhem
1234 or 12 or 123 -- beat of music is the same beat

beat f the heart - flight of wings -- cheek to cheek arse to arse
movement to feel - so horse can dance lightly like a butterfly
no on eperosn makes huge demanding movements you dont dee the rider legs move nor a big huge gap in raising trot- movement direct and clean and clear

so you see a the horse as it true is -- graceful and delicate

Equibrit
Dec. 28, 2007, 05:00 PM
How do we get the OP broke?


4 x 2 or shovel?

egontoast
Dec. 28, 2007, 05:14 PM
I don't think there is much hope for anyone who thinks of any part of training as "broke in the face". It suggests a certain brutality or at least callousness and a lack of understanding about the sensitivity in the horse's mouth. As Scott Hassler put it, to paraphrase because I can't remember the exact quote, once you ruin the mouth it is almost impossible to repair that. Any decent horse trainer already knows that.

I have never heard anyone else in any discipline, including reiners, team penners and NHers use that unfortunate turn of phrase. :confused:

LuvMyTB
Dec. 28, 2007, 05:23 PM
I responded in the other thread with a little advice for that thread's OP and shared some of my personal experiences. But I forgot to add:

"Broke in the face" is a horrendous term. Never heard it before from team penners, WP riders, PPers, english riders--never. It's awful. :no::eek::no::mad:

Reynard Ridge
Dec. 28, 2007, 05:26 PM
So, Hoot, if you're really interested in really learning about horsemanship and communication, get thee to a dressage instructor.

Dressage is the essence of communication between horse and rider and very cool stuff even if it looks boring as hell.

There you go. :yes: Reading a few books, doing a little internet research on the topic, taking lessons with a professional, frankly, it goes a long way.

fiona
Dec. 28, 2007, 06:04 PM
And if that doesn't work find a good garden centre and buy that shovel, you're going to need it to get out of the hole you've dug yourself into anyhow.

JSwan
Dec. 28, 2007, 06:27 PM
Well, I'm not overly upset at the term, broke in the face, but have to admit I have never ever ever heard it before. It does seem to have really negative connotations. Really really really negative.

But so does "dead broke". Some people think it conveys that the horse is somehow beaten down, or broken in spirit, that sort of thing. I think English folks generally tend to use "bombproof". Or I've seen "husband horse" a lot. I think the terms are interchangeable. Dunno.

I have never ever ever ever heard of any decent person tying a horse up to get it to calm down. That's a lot different than side reins. Or draw reins. We could argue the merits of such equipment till the cows come home - but that's not what this lady was talking about in the other thread.

Oh well. Hopefully she'll work with a really good instructor, of any discipline, and hone or develop skills.

YankeeLawyer
Dec. 28, 2007, 07:28 PM
Hoot, maybe this will help, I'm choosing videos over books so you can "see":

(1) A Matter of Trust Vol. I
Volume I covers the basic guidelines for equine behavior, movement,
gaits, physical and mental characteristics of the horse as well as the
training plan for the first year. The first half looks at the horse, the
rider, timing of the aids, movement and correct use of seat and aids.
The second half gives a detailed lesson plan for establishing a solid
foundation.
115 minutes VHS or 230 minutes DVD
http://www.walterzettl.net/pages/booksatapes.html

(2) A Matter of Trust Vol. II
Volume II introduces collection, correct frame, rythm, tempo, and self
carriage. The video uses slow motion close-ups and detailed descriptions of movements with accompanying graphics.
60 minutes VHS or 175 minutes DVD
http://www.walterzettl.net/pages/booksatapes.html

Or check out anything Walter Zettl has written. Good luck and happy new year to you.

These videos are outstanding; I have the whole series and cannot recommend them highly enough. Mr. Zettl is extremely articulate and able to describe things that others may feel but cannot explain nearly as well as he does.

Wild Oaks Farm
Dec. 28, 2007, 07:40 PM
I have not heard the term before but I know what she is asking. I don't think it is meant to be taken literally...western barns have lots of terms that you wouldn't hear in a dressage barn. The reining trainer who trained my mom's horse often referred to her "soft belly" and "soft face" and I got the gist of what he was talking about.

I think in general, she is asking how the horses get soft in their head, poll, neck...etc.

I know the word "broke" has some negative connotations to some people, but the term is used regularly around here and to me, a "broke" horse is a quiet, well-trained horse. So "broke in the face" just makes me think of a horse with a soft, supple neck/jaw/head/etc.

JB
Dec. 28, 2007, 09:02 PM
I don't think there is much hope for anyone who thinks of any part of training as "broke in the face". It suggests a certain brutality or at least callousness and a lack of understanding about the sensitivity in the horse's mouth.

Please don't turn this into an all or nothing thing. As I and a few others have explained, this IS a Western discipline term. There are GOOD Western trainers to use it and do it the right way, by using pure pressure and release training the right way, just like any good training is done. They take it a few steps further though, for reasons I and others stated. It's a phrase that will continue to be used, just like "on the bit". How it's interpreted is another thing, and that is what part of this thread has been about. Dressage folks can apply their own definition of "broke in the face" to jive with their needs - it simply means a horse who is submissive to contact without avoiding it - soft in the jaw if you like.

Besides, "broke in the face" has little to do with what H&T was talking about to deal with a fresh horse.

AlwaysHopeful
Dec. 28, 2007, 09:06 PM
yea i'm bad i didn't read all the replies.

i'm a western/english rider and broke in the face is perfectly understandable to me. i guess it may have negative connotations (sp?) but its not that bad of a term. it would mean getting a horse soft, flexible, responsive. "broke" but specifically "broke" refering to their mouth/face/neck.

i used a neck stretcher on my QH mare, but i've seen the negative effects of too broke, aka rubber necking. my new 4yo was rode in side reins or at least lunged all the time in them, and he gets really BTV all the time, he's so crooked. most good dressage riders look down upon using tools like drawreins, etc. but my 4yo was started by dressage riders and it has NOT produced a good product.

ThreeFigs
Dec. 28, 2007, 09:54 PM
I think dressage is a great way to ride a horse. My western riding friends take lessons from a dressage rider. I want to know how they get their horses on the bit.

At least I am trying to learn, you are just picking.

Why don't you go take lessons with your friend's dressage teacher? Then you'll know aaaalll about how it's done...

jvanrens
Dec. 28, 2007, 10:01 PM
- it simply means a horse who is submissive to contact without avoiding it - soft in the jaw if you like.

Well said JB! A nice soft, responsive to the bit horse is refered to by some western trainers as broke in the face. It's not necessarily used by all, I'd never heard it until the last trainer I worked with. ;)


Besides, "broke in the face" has little to do with what H&T was talking about to deal with a fresh horse.

I agree.

MaresNest
Dec. 29, 2007, 12:09 AM
Have you ever gone sailing or flown a kite? You can't 'make' the boat sail or the kite fly by force or by twiddling the ropes. You have to set up all the right conditions and counter energies to allow it to happen.

That doesn't mean it's all flakey and airy fairy and gumdrops and butterflies. Your boat won't sail and your kite won't fly if you take that approach either.

There's a 'science' to it and that's why it takes skill, training and time. If your friends have a good dressage trainer, go and watch.

It's not about getting the horse to drop behind the bit and it's not breaking the face or whatever you called it.

Egontoast, I LOVE the sailing/kite analogy.

goeslikestink
Dec. 29, 2007, 03:52 AM
here are some basic dressage moves that help the horse to become balanced
with out the need to pull on his head
which is basic riding and common knowledge if you english
if you click the link then the other coth one i did it will tell you how to do the half strides
so whilse you teaching your horse to become balaned in trot by lenghtening and shortening strides you us the half halts to collect the horse


ridinghttp://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=126952



also will mention if you have a horse that lazy or to sharp then you got to be sharper with you aids

Kementari
Dec. 29, 2007, 04:05 AM
I was broke in the face once by a pony who decided that stopping and throwing her head straight up was a good alternative to jumping up a bank... :winkgrin:

Mind you, I had an oral final in Irish later the same day, and my tongue was so sore and swollen (I bit it, and actually chipped a tooth THROUGH it :eek:) that I could barely speak English, let alone anything else...

So I really don't recommend the concept for horse OR human... :lol:

gallupgirl
Dec. 29, 2007, 12:51 PM
"Broke in the face" is a horrendous term. Never heard it before from team penners, WP riders, PPers, english riders--never. It's awful. :no::eek::no::mad:

Just out of curiousity I did a google search "broke in the face" + horse
Came up with 22,000 hits.

JB
Dec. 29, 2007, 01:43 PM
"Broke in the face" is a horrendous term.

I'm curious - how is this worse than "breaking a horse" or "getting him broke"? "Broke in the face" just refers to a specific part of the horse's body.

Ghazzu
Dec. 29, 2007, 02:03 PM
Just out of curiousity I did a google search "broke in the face" + horse
Came up with 22,000 hits.

Most of which have little to do with horses.

GoingForBronze
Dec. 29, 2007, 02:28 PM
:mad::mad::mad::mad::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:
GOD I abhore the use of the word BROKE!!!!

How about training the horse to go up onto the bit with your seat aids and some patience, are you kidding me western girl? What happens when your poor abused horse flips itself in abhoration and slips its axis? Good God.

I suggest that you find a trainer to help you and perhaps work on the walk and shoulder fore first to get a general understanding of "dressage" which means to train by the way, and it takes years to create one of the upper level dressage horses you are thinking about and it wasn't by crammin them into a frame by spurring them and cranking on their mouth. Every discipline has its share of evil trash so I am not slamming any discipline. Just agast at the wording I guess. Breaking Your Horses Face, yeah I bet everyone would rush out and buy that book. God Save Us!!:(:confused::confused::confused:

Kyzteke
Dec. 29, 2007, 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by Hoot&Tick View Post
You need to get hold of the horses face, tie his head down with reins to the side of the saddle. I also run my reins between the front legs and tie them on top of the saddle, and this is on a horse that has been worked many times and wont flip over backwards.


Actually, she may be learning this from a WP barn.

I just talked to a horse buyer from TX today -- she's into dressage now, but years ago as a child she showed WP.

She went over to a big, famous WP barn in her neck of the woods and was aghast at the training methods. Apparently all the BNT she saw were doing this.

I've also seen alot of Arab trainers do this.

Basically it's draw reins...

And you then get the horse's head, but naturally it has nothing to do with the hind end.

ButterflyIris
Dec. 29, 2007, 03:44 PM
I think H&T is asking how you "put a mouth on it"

(tounge is in cheek) ha ha ha!

slc2
Dec. 29, 2007, 04:09 PM
It doesn't matter what you call it, what words you use. It's not the same as dressage. That's all there is to it.

Someone once told me years ago, the main problem people have in progressing in dressage is - misconceptions about what it is. I asked, 'is that because it's complicated?' They said, 'No, it is very, very simple'. I believe the same person told me, 'that's what makes it so hard for people to get'.

Of course, the other answer to that question is, 'It's so complicated only horses understand it'. Which I interprefted to mean, people try to make it complicated, but it's not, but they still don't understand it; the principles work because they're based on how horses work, move and think.

I DO remember who said that - Carol Grant Oldford.

MySparrow
Dec. 29, 2007, 05:11 PM
Do you ever use a surcingle, lunge with the bit, tie their head around.

I am a western, some times English rider and I am having a debate on another forum about needing to get a horse broke in the face.

I would love to hear your secret about getting a horse on the bit.

Sorry, "broke in the face" is a new term for me, and I don't know what you mean. Can you explain, please?

GoingForBronze
Dec. 29, 2007, 09:34 PM
SLC2:

Amen! It never ceases to amaze me what people think about dressage. It seems to start with the whole DQ misconception - I've been accused of worse things than being a DQ but if ever I was accused of breaking a horse in the face I would sue that person for slander, what an outrageous way of stating it.

I understand the overuse of side reins, draw reins, any of it, yet in 30 years of riding - I have NEVER heard BROKE IN THE FACE, not even in the mountains with cowboys on cattle drives, not even at the worst of all witnessed training facilities in my life time - even though they were BREAKING their faces by tying 2 year olds around to the saddle horn with A Frame bits in their mouths and leaving them to circle until their mouths were raw and bleeding hours and sometimes days later - yeah that's what I thought of when I heard this term. Good God perhaps ignorance is bliss.:mad::yes: ?
GFB

JB
Dec. 29, 2007, 10:15 PM
Sorry, "broke in the face" is a new term for me, and I don't know what you mean. Can you explain, please?

Try this :)


To be fair, it IS a Western term - "Get the horse broke in the face", meaning get him to give to the SLIGHTEST hint of contact. For those folks, it IS desirable, given their disciplines. For the rest of us, it's not desirable.

JB
Dec. 29, 2007, 10:17 PM
I understand the overuse of side reins, draw reins, any of it, yet in 30 years of riding - I have NEVER heard BROKE IN THE FACE, not even in the mountains with cowboys on cattle drives, not even at the worst of all witnessed training facilities in my life time

Done correctly, it's nothing horrible!!! Done correctly, it's a wonderful thing for the disciplines which it suits!! It's a very common term among WP folks - maybe regional, but still common. It takes the hunter/jumper/dressage definition and goal of "soft in the jaw" and giving to but accepting pressure from the bit to a whole new level.

ESG
Dec. 30, 2007, 11:28 AM
Done correctly, it's nothing horrible!!! Done correctly, it's a wonderful thing for the disciplines which it suits!! It's a very common term among WP folks - maybe regional, but still common. It takes the hunter/jumper/dressage definition and goal of "soft in the jaw" and giving to but accepting pressure from the bit to a whole new level.


Umm,................no.

Dressage teaches acceptance of the bit, facilitated by engagement of the hindquarters. Western teaches avoidance of the bit, facilitated by yanking, tying heads to tails, and using twisted wire bits.

Simplistic, perhaps, but pithy. :cool:

JB
Dec. 30, 2007, 12:07 PM
Dressage teaches acceptance of the bit, facilitated by engagement of the hindquarters. Western teaches avoidance of the bit, facilitated by yanking, tying heads to tails, and using twisted wire bits.

Umm... no ;) Yes, dressage teaches the things you listed, no disagreement there. But GOOD Western teaching, which I specifically stated - GOOD - does not teach avoidance, does not teach by yanking or tying or using twisted bits. You are looking at Western through evil eyes. Many Western people look at dressage through their own "evil eyes" because OMG we are cranking their heads in and at the same time using big spurs!!!

meupatdoes
Dec. 30, 2007, 12:25 PM
JB, forget trying to get most people on the COTH dressage board to consider any non-dressage discipline, even at the top of its game with wonderful, humane trainers and lovely, happy horses, to be worth the air the horses and riders breathe.

If you're not riding a Lippizan in Vienna, you may as well kill yourself. The end.

JB
Dec. 30, 2007, 12:59 PM
*sigh* you're probably right. Funny how I've seen threads with DQ's vehemently defending the "cranked" in heads and huge spurs to Western folks who question it. Oh, but wait, that proves your point - never mind! :lol:

fiona
Dec. 30, 2007, 02:33 PM
Well for what it's worth you won't get me to consider any of the cowboy disciplines because the only time i get to see them is on tv, in old western movies and on freeview a la mr parelli which i don't think or assume is truly representative. Serious level eventing or show jumping yes because i've seen it up close.

If i thought riding a lippizan in vienna was all that dressage is, should and could be i would shoot myself instantly.

meupatdoes
Dec. 30, 2007, 02:57 PM
Fiona, can you clarify what you mean by "consider"?

Do you mean consider as in "something I would talk about or pass judgment on", as in you wouldn't consider them a point of comparison because you don't know enough about them to use them as such?

Or do you mean consider as "something I would consider a decent discipline", as in you wouldn't consider it a decent discipline because all you've seen is bad stuff that you yourself say is non-representative?

I've never sat on a bona fide competitive reining horse, but I can still recognize that there is an art to their training, even though it is different from what I do, and that the horses are beautiful for their discipline even though not suitable for the one my horses compete in, and I am not going to call all Western people abusive and say they all tie the horse's head around and make their horses avoid the bit. A lot of dressage people on this forum do it all the time, especially toward the Western divisions, and I find it ridiculous. Especially since if they are making such ridiculous blanket statements about an entire discipline they have probably never gotten closer to it than YouTube.

ThreeFigs
Dec. 30, 2007, 04:08 PM
ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz......

Equibrit
Dec. 30, 2007, 04:20 PM
JB, forget trying to get most people on the COTH dressage board to consider any non-dressage discipline, even at the top of its game with wonderful, humane trainers and lovely, happy horses, to be worth the air the horses and riders breathe.

If you're not riding a Lippizan in Vienna, you may as well kill yourself. The end.


Please do not include me in your sweeping generalization.

JB
Dec. 30, 2007, 04:36 PM
Please do not include me in your sweeping generalization.

She said "most people", and if you're open to how well-trained, in a polite manner, in other disciplines a horse can be, then you don't fit in with "most people" ;)

meupatdoes
Dec. 30, 2007, 04:42 PM
Equibrit:

Thus my very intentional use of the word most, instead of the all-compassing all or everyone.

In general, it helps to read what was actually posted.

ETA: Nevermind, JB got there first.

goeslikestink
Dec. 30, 2007, 05:06 PM
broke in the face means to me someone going hells bells in a boxing match
and got broke in the face as in broken nose cauliflower ears

Eventer55
Dec. 30, 2007, 05:18 PM
Ok, I have my Merlot. . . :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

cosmos mom
Dec. 30, 2007, 05:35 PM
Generally, if I want to break a horse in the face, I go home and drink some wine until the urge passes. If the urge does not pass, I guess I'd use a baseball bat!

JSwan
Dec. 30, 2007, 05:41 PM
Ahem - at the risk of adding another car to the train.......

Y'all need to be reminded that the person in question is not referring to the horse having a soft jaw, or any WP type of training that results in a nicely trained mount.

What she was talking about was trussing the horse up like a turkey to get it to CALM DOWN. She was responding to a poster who was lunging her horse but the horse was not calming down (which is the subject of another thread.....)

This has nothing to do with "western vs english", or even dressage. In fact, I'm starting to suspect the OP is not the innocent she appears, and is in fact, enjoying the stir she makes with her inane posts.

In short - she's messing with y'all. If she isn't, she's doing a darn good imitation.

cosmos mom
Dec. 30, 2007, 05:43 PM
Awww, shucks! I really wanted to learn how breakin horses in the face is dun! :lol:

lelevic
Dec. 30, 2007, 05:49 PM
What she was talking about was trussing the horse up like a turkey to get it to CALM DOWN.

Ok J Swan, I knew I could count on you! You keep me rolling! :lol: :lol: :lol:

You kind of hit the nail on the head with your entire comment! Bravo!

perpetual_novice
Dec. 30, 2007, 06:00 PM
Ahem - at the risk of adding another car to the train.......

Y'all need to be reminded that the person in question is not referring to the horse having a soft jaw, or any WP type of training that results in a nicely trained mount. ...
In short - she's messing with y'all. If she isn't, she's doing a darn good imitation.

Do ya think? :D

I've had her on my ignore list for months. I only happened on this thread because I could not imagine what she was posting on this particular forum. I have really just skimmed the thread because I was interested to see what sensible people such as J Swan, YankeeLawyer and others have had to say.

Though I do have to say, it was worth glancing over this train derailment (not quite a wreck yet) just for Equibrit's response:


Place the bit on the floor.
Place horse on top.

Voy la - horse on the bit.

That should suffice for you!

JB
Dec. 30, 2007, 06:13 PM
broke in the face means to me someone going hells bells in a boxing match
and got broke in the face as in broken nose cauliflower ears

That is why I and a few others have tried to explain what it means. It's a Western discipline term - not something the vast majority of people outside the US, or many people IN the US who never venture to that side of things, have ever heard.


Y'all need to be reminded that the person in question is not referring to the horse having a soft jaw, or any WP type of training that results in a nicely trained mount.

What she was talking about was trussing the horse up like a turkey to get it to CALM DOWN. She was responding to a poster who was lunging her horse but the horse was not calming down (which is the subject of another thread.....)

This has nothing to do with "western vs english", or even dressage. In fact, I'm starting to suspect the OP is not the innocent she appears, and is in fact, enjoying the stir she makes with her inane posts.


It IS Western vs English/Dressage when talking strictly about the term "broke in the face". I have personally had a Western rider that I highly respect - not a professional by any means, but certainly knows her stuff and turns out well-trained, happy, responsive horses - ask me this very question "How do you hunters get your horses broke in the face when you have so much contact?" It's a VALID question, and absolutely discipline-specific.


And yes, H&T WAS talking 2 separate issues in the thread over on Horse Care. One I, and others who get it, have no qualms about - the term "broke in the face"; and the other, the one that EVERYone has qualms about - tying the horse's head to the saddle/between the legs/whatever to "calm it down". They are 2 separate issues. You don't get a horse "broke in the face" or "soft in the jaw" in one day/one session, just like you don't get impulsion in one say/one session. It takes several sessions - some take longer than others. But regardless, that in and of itself has nothing to do with getting a horse to calm down.

Huntertwo
Dec. 30, 2007, 06:47 PM
Umm,................no.

Western teaches avoidance of the bit, facilitated by yanking, tying heads to tails, and using twisted wire bits.

. :cool:

To sum it up - Umm,.........no.

That is the most ridiculous broad brushed statement I've ever heard. WTF?:confused:

I've ridden Western my entire life and NEVER have done what you presume to know about teaching a Western horse. :no:

Underdog
Dec. 30, 2007, 07:08 PM
Totally nobody...but ya know...I want to recommend a REALLY good read by an old timer that's passed away now. He was trying to teach *Feel* and to get those feet moving just proper in alignment and all. ;-)

His name would be Bill Dorrence and that book would be *True Horsemanship through Feel*.

He'll teach ya how to get that horse's head light in your hands with a lead rope then into a bridle.
Take a look. It's good stuff.

slc2
Dec. 30, 2007, 08:32 PM
There are only so many bill dorrances in the world.

I'm afraid when I go to different western barns, that the number of people who train with the sensitivity and skill of bill dorrance is...well...not that many. There are a lot of people out there who train with that yank yank thing, tie the horse's head to his tail, yadda yadda. Sorry, but I DO see a great deal of it.

I was lucky enough to be able to watch a couple really good western trainers and ride their horses (western pleasure, cutting, reining, working cow horse, some other types of competitions i don't recall). Not only were they great, they were also - well - poor. Most people preferred the quickie methods, and oddly enough, in western classes (not including reining and cutting), these guys didn't really seem to win all that much. They usually finished down in the bottom to the middle of the class. Their horses were perfectly 'broke in the face' (if you have to call it that, i prefer the term 'well trained western style').

In any type of riding, the number of really fantastic skilled trainers is never 99%, or 80%, or close to that. People who expect that need to grow up.

But whether the horse is trained by someone who's gentle or rough, the western contact and response to the bit is STILL different from that in dressage. You just can't get around that.

People DEFINITELY try to invent some sort of 'western like' dressage with the horse behind the bit - that's VERY common. The results are not good - without the comfortable response of western riding, and without the correct technical points sought in dressage.

JB
Dec. 30, 2007, 08:34 PM
But whether the horse is trained by someone who's gentle or rough, the western contact and response to the bit is STILL different from that in dressage. You just can't get around that.
Nobody said otherwise. It IS different, and AFAIK, that has been explained several times now.


People DEFINITELY try to invent some sort of 'western like' dressage with the horse behind the bit - that's VERY common. The results are not good - without the comfortable response of western riding, and without the correct technical points sought in dressage.

But done correctly, it's not toooo terribly different, up to a point.

JSwan
Dec. 31, 2007, 06:31 AM
It IS Western vs English/Dressage when talking strictly about the term "broke in the face".

I think you missed the post in which I stated I understood the use of such a phrase; and which I also pointed out that some people would have similar qualms about the term "dead broke". You're preaching to the choir. Not all folks on this BB have only been exposed to dresssaaahhhge.

What I think a lot of y'all are also missing out on a theme throughout this person's posts.

She is a provocateur. Or at least appears to be.

slc2
Dec. 31, 2007, 08:11 AM
why is this thing still alive then?

because she is a very GOOD provocateur :lol:

i think cleaning sheaths is more appealing.

fiona
Dec. 31, 2007, 10:25 AM
Fiona, can you clarify what you mean by "consider"?
Do you mean consider as in "something I would talk about or pass judgment on", as in you wouldn't consider them a point of comparison because you don't know enough about them to use them as such?


Exactly that. From my limited watching of mr parelli on freeview satellite tv i didn't get the impression he was the 100% epitome of western/natural/whatever you want to call it horsemanship although some of the stuff was funny and a good way to get people to bond with their horses and understand how they think. I've never seen the western disciplines in competition in real life so can't comment there and obviously Clint Eastwood was communicating with me directly in the Good the Bad and the Ugly, i could tell that by the way he looked right at me, but i have to be honest it was a while back and i'm a bit hazy on his technique.

JB
Dec. 31, 2007, 10:27 AM
I think you missed the post in which I stated I understood the use of such a phrase;

Yes, you're right, I did :) I should have known better with you :D

canticle
Dec. 31, 2007, 12:39 PM
People DEFINITELY try to invent some sort of 'western like' dressage with the horse behind the bit - that's VERY common. The results are not good - without the comfortable response of western riding, and without the correct technical points sought in dressage.
Let's be careful about calling dressage "correct". This implies that western training is incorrect! They are two different styles of riding and training, but you can't say that one is more technically correct than the other.

It's also worth noting that some people have tried to invent some sort of 'dressage like' dressage with the horse behind the bit! There's good and bad everywhere. :yes:

Velvet
Dec. 31, 2007, 12:43 PM
Okay, I guess I've missed the party out here, but I just wanted to respond to the OPs original title.

"With a 2x4, obviously, dahling." :dead:

CatOnLap
Dec. 31, 2007, 12:45 PM
Sh*t Velvet, you're a dollar short and a day late- someone already said thats how ayrabs get dishy faces!

Get back ON the 2 x 4 where you belong!

GreekDressageQueen
Dec. 31, 2007, 12:53 PM
It may be a western vs. english riding debate, but I have seen the same "tactics" used on Arabians that are ridden BOTH english and western.

Velvet
Dec. 31, 2007, 12:56 PM
Sh*t Velvet, you're a dollar short and a day late- someone already said thats how ayrabs get dishy faces!

Get back ON the 2 x 4 where you belong!


Oops, my bad! You know I'm the biggest DQ out here and believe the world revolves around "Me, me, me!" So who dared to step on my toes and post that reply before I got to this topic on my slowest horse (while passaging and then piaffing every few steps)? how DARE they!! Especially when using it for "Arabs". ;)

Kyzteke
Dec. 31, 2007, 01:01 PM
[QUOTE=slc2;2901489]There are only so many bill dorrances in the world.

I'm afraid when I go to different western barns, that the number of people who train with the sensitivity and skill of bill dorrance is...well...not that many. There are a lot of people out there who train with that yank yank thing, tie the horse's head to his tail, yadda yadda. Sorry, but I DO see a great deal of it.

Well, there are only so many Reiner Klimekes or Walter Zettels as well.

What exactly is your point? That dressage as a whole has better trainers than western? You would have to be joking at that point.

The fact is that ANY discipline is loaded with people who take all kinds of drastic shortcuts to get the job done and/or win ribbons and very few who are at the top of their game in terms of true horsemanship.

Kyzteke
Dec. 31, 2007, 01:03 PM
*

mp
Dec. 31, 2007, 01:24 PM
There are only so many bill dorrances in the world.

There was just one, to be exact. But luckily, he and his brother Tom both lived long lives and got around to holding clinics and teaching a lot of people before they passed on. So there are quite a few people who got to learn firsthand what Bill wrote about in "True Horsemanship Through Feel." The ideas on how to get along with a horse apply, no matter what discipline you ride. The section on how to get a horse to lead willingly and softly is worth the price of the book alone.



I'm afraid when I go to different western barns, that the number of people who train with the sensitivity and skill of bill dorrance is...well...not that many. There are a lot of people out there who train with that yank yank thing, tie the horse's head to his tail, yadda yadda. Sorry, but I DO see a great deal of it.

I was lucky enough to be able to watch a couple really good western trainers and ride their horses (western pleasure, cutting, reining, working cow horse, some other types of competitions i don't recall). Not only were they great, they were also - well - poor. Most people preferred the quickie methods, and oddly enough, in western classes (not including reining and cutting), these guys didn't really seem to win all that much. They usually finished down in the bottom to the middle of the class. Their horses were perfectly 'broke in the face' (if you have to call it that, i prefer the term 'well trained western style').

You certainly do get around, slc. Just for the record, the Dorrances weren't trainers. They were ranchers who happened to be horsemen.

AnotherRound
Dec. 31, 2007, 01:59 PM
Oh, MP. Its really all the same to the Slickster. Whether they were trainers, or horsemen, or ranchers, or, gee, I don't know, it just doesn't matter. Slick remembers them in her own speshul way.*sigh* Why, she keeps abreast of all and any horse related information all over the world! Personally! Always!

But, it truly doesn't matter if she visited them this week or when she was a teenager! What counts is that she was there, once, personally, and saw it with her own eyes! And, don't you know? Time, to the Slickster, is meaningless, anyway. Why, for the slickster, years are days! Days are hours! Hours? Why, only a moment ago, I was just saying! And in god-like omniscience, Slick has a mind like a burnished, heat-forged, steel strap. Why, don't you see? Snap! and its locked in! Thwap! and its there to stay! Ffffffliiiiip! and its recalled, just for the asking! Any thought, any factoid, any experience she may or may not have actually had, all of them instant, right there, on the tip of her brain! And, from her brain, right out the end of her fingers, to your hungry eyes, questing for knowledge, yessireebob!

Huntertwo
Dec. 31, 2007, 02:07 PM
There are only so many bill dorrances in the world.

I'm afraid when I go to different western barns, that the number of people who train with the sensitivity and skill of bill dorrance is...well...not that many. There are a lot of people out there who train with that yank yank thing, tie the horse's head to his tail, yadda yadda. Sorry, but I DO see a great deal of it.



So is that any worse or different than a Dressage horse with its head cranked to its chest? Seen many a video of this and the horse looked darn right miserable.

~Freedom~
Dec. 31, 2007, 02:17 PM
Oh, MP. Its really all the same to the Slickster. Whether they were trainers, or horsemen, or ranchers, or, gee, I don't know, it just doesn't matter. Slick remembers them in her own speshul way.*sigh* Why, she keeps abreast of all and any horse related information all over the world! Personally! Always!

But, it truly doesn't matter if she visited them this week or when she was a teenager! What counts is that she was there, once, personally, and saw it with her own eyes! And, don't you know? Time, to the Slickster, is meaningless, anyway. Why, for the slickster, years are days! Days are hours! Hours? Why, only a moment ago, I was just saying! And in god-like omniscience, Slick has a mind like a burnished, heat-forged, steel strap. Why, don't you see? Snap! and its locked in! Thwap! and its there to stay! Ffffffliiiiip! and its recalled, just for the asking! Any thought, any factoid, any experience she may or may not have actually had, all of them instant, right there, on the tip of her brain! And, from her brain, right out the end of her fingers, to your hungry eyes, questing for knowledge, yessireebob!

Is this because of the PANDAS syndrome?

Brady'smom
Dec. 31, 2007, 02:22 PM
I guess Klimke was not a dressage person. Side reins/surcingle is a useful tool for training a horse to seek the bit (back to front). It's only a problem if used incorrectly (to tie the head down, to force the horse onto the bit, if used front to back).

Slc uses nothing to get her horse on the bit. No tack, no aids? Youtube is waiting for this miracle .

She'd have to use a bit.... :lol:

SSFLandon
Dec. 31, 2007, 02:49 PM
I have perhaps a dumb and maybe already discussed question that I would like more info on...Why are upper level dressage horses required to go in the double bridle? SLC2 mentions the need for NO devices (side reins, draw reins, etc...) but I feel that bridle seems quite strong hence my question. I do agree that these devices should be used as aids only not a way to force a horse. Even though I train hunters I expect my horses to be trained correctly ie, going into the bridle, counter canter, leg yields, etc...many of them double as eq. horses and I feel to get the best from any horse they should be trained properly...not just ridden with a loop in the rein on the forehand.

I am an experienced horse women and going back to the OP's topic of breaking a horse in the face...I like the term getting him round or into the bridle/aids. I hope her use of words is just that of an inexperienced teen of sorts. I think she needs to take some lessons. I have run into people like her and it is fustrating to teach people who just want things to happen without going through the process. I hope she learns from the posts here.

akor
Dec. 31, 2007, 03:12 PM
FWIW, I think the language used is important. "Broke in the face" just sounds crude to me, and it conjures up crude images. I'm not saying that is the intent by any means, just that for me, with no other knowledge of that term, the first time I read it I got a very negative impression. Of the term and the poster, just to be honest. Then, one has to step back and try to be open to what the intent/circumstances are. Gut reactions are what they are, gut.

We can evolve the language we use to refer to things. For good and bad reasons. Think "secretary" to "administrative assistant." To me, they are the same job, but at least in my business world, admin assistant is much preferred over secretary now. Secretary conjures up images of a sexist manager these days. Now, that manager/worker may just be older when that was a common word. It doesn't make him/her sexist or old, but I do a double take when I hear that word used now, and without other context, the term secretary can seem negative.

Fair or not, how you speak and the terms you use DO make an impression.

Velvet
Dec. 31, 2007, 03:18 PM
That's Flight Attendant , silly, not Stewardess ! :lol:

UT
Dec. 31, 2007, 03:34 PM
for those interested, Leslie Desmond who co-authored Bill Dorrance's book holds clinics. she also has a 10 CD set on some of the same topics.
Regardless of discipline, it never hurts to learn to communicate with horses in a way they can understand.

SSFLandon
Dec. 31, 2007, 04:09 PM
That's Flight Attendant , silly, not Stewardess ! :lol:


I got in trouble on a flight for calling a lady a stewardess...and quickly was corrected that it's flight attendant

egontoast
Dec. 31, 2007, 04:53 PM
"Broke in the face" just sounds crude to me, and it conjures up crude images. I'm not saying that is the intent by any means, just that for me, with no other knowledge of that term, the first time I read it I got a very negative impression

Yes, I think a lot of us had that reaction (and while it may be a western term , I haven't ever heard that from the western people I know)

I somehow think the reaction was intended by the OP since she did not return after pushing the train off the track.:no:

BarbB
Dec. 31, 2007, 05:00 PM
For all the defense of the term here, I know people who compete (successfully) at the national level in western competitions and I have never heard them say "broke in the face"
They say 'soft on the bit' and 'soft in the hand' ....(which is not the same thing as 'on the bit').
And I competed in reining for many years and never heard that expression.
I suspect it might be a backyard trainer, yahoo, tie their heads to the ceiling, tie their heads to the saddle type of expression. Those barns do exist and many people, unfortunately, never get to see anything else.

Just my two cents, personally I don't want to do anything that I could describe to someone as broke in the face.
I have enough trouble talking to non horse people.

LarissaL
Dec. 31, 2007, 05:11 PM
Oh, MP. Its really all the same to the Slickster. Whether they were trainers, or horsemen, or ranchers, or, gee, I don't know, it just doesn't matter. Slick remembers them in her own speshul way.*sigh* Why, she keeps abreast of all and any horse related information all over the world! Personally! Always!

But, it truly doesn't matter if she visited them this week or when she was a teenager! What counts is that she was there, once, personally, and saw it with her own eyes! And, don't you know? Time, to the Slickster, is meaningless, anyway. Why, for the slickster, years are days! Days are hours! Hours? Why, only a moment ago, I was just saying! And in god-like omniscience, Slick has a mind like a burnished, heat-forged, steel strap. Why, don't you see? Snap! and its locked in! Thwap! and its there to stay! Ffffffliiiiip! and its recalled, just for the asking! Any thought, any factoid, any experience she may or may not have actually had, all of them instant, right there, on the tip of her brain! And, from her brain, right out the end of her fingers, to your hungry eyes, questing for knowledge, yessireebob!

At least she attempts to contribute productively. Whether or not her experiences are real/exaggerated/completely made up, at least I can see she has SOME experience with horses. You, I can't tell if you've ever sat on the back of a horse. Can't recall a single piece of useful horse-related information you've ever spouted off. I never really considered the ignore list useful, but have had a sudden revelation to the contrary as your posts have become ever more trite and repetitive.

Brady'smom
Dec. 31, 2007, 05:14 PM
I have perhaps a dumb and maybe already discussed question that I would like more info on...Why are upper level dressage horses required to go in the double bridle? SLC2 mentions the need for NO devices (side reins, draw reins, etc...) but I feel that bridle seems quite strong hence my question.


I don't think it's a poor question, as I've already posed it and it's been discussed. I also added 'why any requirement for spurs' since if we're in tune with the horse we shouldn't need extra restraint of a curb, nor extra 'gas' from spurs. I was informed that it was to give 'more refinement' to the aid. However to me, ideally, we and our horses are so in tune, that shifting weight and the merest movement of shoulder, leg, calf translate to reaction in our mounts. I am a dreamer. YAY MAJIKAL Barefoot Gypsy Vanners!!

slc2
Dec. 31, 2007, 05:38 PM
The curb isn't used to restrain the horse. The spurs aren't used to force the horse to go - not when someone rides the upper levels well.

The spurs give the rider the potential of using very delicate aids with the slightest movement of his leg. It allows for the 'invisible aids' and traditionally is a very valid test of the rider's ability to control his own movements.

The double is required out of tradition - because its proper use shows a finely trained, correctly trained horse responding to the lightest most refined aids.

The double shows the rider's skill - he must be a very good trainer to produce a horse that goes in the double and is fresh and responsive, if he is not, the double bridle will magnify his mistakes.

The double allows the rider to use very sensitive aids and to develop even more impulsion and collection, as there are two well separated rein effects from the different bits. This is what makes it different from the snaffle - the two separate bits with no mixed effect (like a pelham or many other bits) - allows the rider to ride in a very different way, carefully adjusting and tuning how he rides.

The double also forces the rider to have his rains absolutely even, as any mistakes there will tip the curb bit - the setup has very little tolerance for mistakes. IT is definitely the old 'opening up the kimono' and exposes all mistakes far more unforgivingly than a snaffle bit -w hich is why it has always been a tradition to use it at the upper levels.

A horse cannot be forced to do something in a double that he wasn't first properly trained to do in the snaffle. You can't forcibly create correct work when the muscles aren't developed properly over time, and the previous training with the snaffle has been incorrect.

You can hear a lot of baloney from riders about double bridles, a trainer i worked with once said, there are two types of people, those who will honestly tell you it's a ***** to ride in correctly, and those who telll you they love it and it's sno great, LOL. after decades of using the double he said he was still learning how to use it better....and he said anyone who's honest won't tell you any different.

In the hunt field, the double has been used 'for brakes', it can be used that way, it often is, sometimes with great skill - Bruce Davidson often used to go cross country with his horses in the double bridle.

but using a double bridle for brakes or to force the horse to 'assume the position'. even though you may see people use it that way, that isn't the goal of the good rider in advanced dressage.

this whole concept of spurs and the double alot of people have a lot of problems with - because they have used spurs to create basic obedience to the leg(which is a real problem), and a stronger bit for brakes, or watched others do so for years, so they don't get why this equipment would show a better trained horse and a better rider/trainer.

Brady'smom
Dec. 31, 2007, 05:42 PM
And now you know, SSF.

~Freedom~
Dec. 31, 2007, 05:43 PM
nor extra 'gas' from spurs.

My old coach told me that they are meant to "stand at the ready like guards at a castle" should a slight correction be needed..

GreekDressageQueen
Dec. 31, 2007, 05:45 PM
Yeah - but that's like saying if we could all just get along and love one another the world would be a better, safer place with no killing, no raping, no war, YADA YADA YADA. :lol: I guess this is the "no spanking" crowd. :)

In my perfect world, my horses would read my mind (although my mare and I come pretty close) and all I would have to do is telecommunication commands and hold a leather thong around their nose decorated in lots of shiny bling and rhinestones only because it's pretty. What people don't realize (because truthfully how many of you have ever even ridden an upper level dressage horse?) is the stronger, more collected, elastic and forward upper level dressage horses get the more powerful and hot they become. Sometimes it feels like I am containing a bomb about to explode! The double bridle is part of the tool for control and guidance just like a saddle or any other aids. When used appropriately it is actually more gentle for the horse because all you need to is some weight in your snaffle rein and the curb is just there when needed to remind the horse to come back to you.

As far as spurs are concerned...well again you assume that even though we may be "in tune" with our horses and they love us dearly that somehow they lose their free will? Sorry, but until I find a way to tell my horse to half-pass right without spurs - I need something to override his "no" button. :yes:

goeslikestink
Dec. 31, 2007, 06:05 PM
i am not a lover of spurs unless you know how to use them
and i will explain why
normally half the joe bloggs has them on for show-- to pose look good
or -- have them on anyways as think they back up the leg i will give a true senerio in a mo
but anyways you see them a shows and as the rider goes round riding they tap tap tap into there sides constantly this is not ideal as the legs should be still and quiet
so what happens they go in huge be kick -- but the constant sub concious taping goes on as they dont know they doing it -- and the horse nds up with spur marks and a rough deal of sore sides -- eventually becomes dead to the leg

not to along ago myself debs and coupple of mates when to a x/c team event
held at one of the local x/c courses jolly good fun we had a lovely time and was waiting for our results
the next class was in succession and we sat under a big oak tree with the horses
one of our mates was already to go but had a couple infornt of her and we was waiting and watching where we were was nice and shady out of everyones ways just sitting taking a break-- and dismounted horses was noshing on the grass and we sat on the tree roots having a natter--
then this girl comes round spurs and all big grey irish x coblett shes in next 200yds away is her 1st jump- so we watch her go in the start box- and off she went
horse didnt want to jump the jump-- and bolted-- this girl lost control as shes moving shes kicking not conciously knowing she doing it this horse took through the undergrowth
and under the low cherry ochard nearby and back and around us twice this horse was not going to stop for love nor money he already bumped into a younger contestant and had them off so 2 horses lose- but thatone was caught more or less straight away
me and debs knew this girl couldnt hold this horse and she was screaming just crying in total fear as she came round the second time you could hear her,,
anways he was comming back for a third run right around us, so me chucks lead rein at mate whose mounted of my horse debs did the same with her horse
and i run out to the girl and say pull hard on one rrein now pull hard girl pull she just didnt have the strenght to--- debs my lovely brave girl as you dont know our debs but she as strong as ox and as brave as they come-- jumps out literally leaps on this horses head and yanks him-- how she did it i dont know but she took hold of this horse in full bolt and brought him to a stand still--- this girl just slump to the floor like jelly---
her father had come over and he said shes alright i said no shes not she needs medical attention shes in shock-- to which the amberlance was thre in minutes
the horse tho- we said to her dad cant take him home like that as he knows he can get away with it and will try it again let debs ride him and settle him down to which he said fine we said you go to med tent tell us where yourbox s and we will bring him over when we have gain control of him - so off they went

this horse was in a bridle- that was to big as bit was hanging out his mouth the girl had spurs on and whip just asking for trouble- not the horses fault he went becuase he was asked to go- and kept going

we did eventually get the horse and do some work with him in a controlled manner
having jumped him over the practice course a few times before sending him back the girl as she was cut fro head to toe- i tacked up my own mare and showed her how to use her legs and how to ride properly and what happens when you ask politely - we now have the girl as a lesson ever week and she s ditched the whip and spurs -and is much more in control with her horse

Dalfan
Dec. 31, 2007, 07:54 PM
At least she attempts to contribute productively. Whether or not her experiences are real/exaggerated/completely made up, at least I can see she has SOME experience with horses. You, I can't tell if you've ever sat on the back of a horse. Can't recall a single piece of useful horse-related information you've ever spouted off. I never really considered the ignore list useful, but have had a sudden revelation to the contrary as your posts have become ever more trite and repetitive.

And predictable. Don't forget predictable.

JB
Dec. 31, 2007, 08:02 PM
For all the defense of the term here, I know people who compete (successfully) at the national level in western competitions and I have never heard them say "broke in the face"
This is why I mentioned that I think it may also be a regional thing. I hear it a lot around my area from Western-only folks.


Just my two cents, personally I don't want to do anything that I could describe to someone as broke in the face.
Not directed at you personally, but I had asked this before of another poster who said something like this - how is it different from "breaking a horse"? Or is that term common enough that most horse people, regardless of discipline, know it simply means "train him"?

ThreeFigs
Dec. 31, 2007, 10:56 PM
Thank you, SLC2, for your post -- right on and to the point! You speak the truth.

This thread reminds me of the volunteers I used to watch riding horses at one of our local (and less reputable) rescues. It was a painful spectacle indeed. There was this one Arab gelding, quite handsome, who'd evidently been a show horse at some time (probably a Park Horse). Somehow the vols got the idea he was one'a them DRESSage horses -- and you know how to ride those, right? You pull on the mouth and kick'em a lot and that makes 'em get, you know, "collected". Like those Lippizans in the movie.

I do not know why or how this horse (dear kind soul!) did not kill these nincompoops. It was a glorious day when a nice woman adopted him, sought advice from one of the upper echelon at the rescue, who told her, "If you are adopting THAT horse, get a trainer".

She asked me for help. It took months to get the poor horse to tolerate any sort of contact or communication via the bit. The first few lessons I kept reminding her ""Don't touch his face!" The lessons were pretty hairy till he decided we weren't trying to tear his head off.

He was definitely "broke in the face". In a very baaaad way.

SSFLandon
Jan. 1, 2008, 09:27 AM
And now you know, SSF.


I sure do don't I :winkgrin:

I also thinkk that she should take back her comment on "not needing" anything to help the horses (draw reins, etc...) spurs, whips and big bits are cetainly in the aid category. And if the forfathers of the sport requires these items then one can't say nothing is ever needed nor that they don't help the rider. Again, I belive that all equipment has a purpose to aid not to abuse. I ride my jumper in a herman sprenger rubber dog bone. He jumps 4'6 in it. No martingale or spurs but, if for control since he shows in hard classes I had to use more (bit, running martingale, etc) I would and would not deny the use of using "aids" to help him or me perform better nor would I make a statement saying that a horse that requires these things in not trained correctly.
Please not I'm not making a fight here just giving an opinion.

BarbB
Jan. 1, 2008, 09:55 AM
Not directed at you personally, but I had asked this before of another poster who said something like this - how is it different from "breaking a horse"? Or is that term common enough that most horse people, regardless of discipline, know it simply means "train him"?

I don't use that one much either, although I have been known to describe a horse as being really broke, which is a good thing...appearances to the contrary :lol:

I think the general public, non horsey, get your information from TV and movies, GENERALLY know that 'breaking' a horse is not a bad thing. But even that may just be my wishful thinking as I have had people ask me how long it took to "break" my show jumper and did I ride all that bucking?

I think too many people tend to think that horse training is pretty brutal and a trip to the local 'riding stable' where the horses get yelled at and tied head to saddle horn til they're 'broke' does not dissuade people from this idea.

"trainers" who use colorful catch phrases like 'broke in the face' to show everyone that they are part of the in-crowd and just super savy with all the horse lingo don't help to educate the general public that horse training is NOT bronc busting and encourage them to try riding.

last comment before I fall off my soapbox.....we, horsemen, are being squeezed out by a population that mostly has never seen a horse close up. Fostering the idea that horse sports are some sort of deadly combat where the goal is to beat the horse into submission does not increase tolerance for horse sports from the average urban/suburban American.

MySparrow
Jan. 1, 2008, 10:58 AM
I don't use that one much either, although I have been known to describe a horse as being really broke, which is a good thing...appearances to the contrary :lol:

I think the general public, non horsey, get your information from TV and movies, GENERALLY know that 'breaking' a horse is not a bad thing. But even that may just be my wishful thinking as I have had people ask me how long it took to "break" my show jumper and did I ride all that bucking?

I think too many people tend to think that horse training is pretty brutal and a trip to the local 'riding stable' where the horses get yelled at and tied head to saddle horn til they're 'broke' does not dissuade people from this idea.

"trainers" who use colorful catch phrases like 'broke in the face' to show everyone that they are part of the in-crowd and just super savy with all the horse lingo don't help to educate the general public that horse training is NOT bronc busting and encourage them to try riding.

last comment before I fall off my soapbox.....we, horsemen, are being squeezed out by a population that mostly has never seen a horse close up. Fostering the idea that horse sports are some sort of deadly combat where the goal is to beat the horse into submission does not increase tolerance for horse sports from the average urban/suburban American.

Well said.

I write for a living, and I know that words have meaning and resonance that influence the thinking of those who hear or read them, far more powerfully than most people realize. "Breaking" a horse is one of the words that I would gladly see consigned to the dust heap. Why would anyone want a broke(n) horse?

We could say "train," or "back," or "teach," or "improve" or "bit" or "put to saddle," or actually tell people what we're doing! We don't have to say "break." We continue to do so because we're lazy, we think it doesn't matter, or, in some cases, we like the sense of power we derive from saying we have "broken" such a large and powerful animal.

"Broke in the face" is such a hideous term that I can't imagine why anyone who admires and respects the horse would want to use it. I had hoped that the OP would respond to my genuine question -- I am baffled about what she means by the term -- but obviously gaining information was not her intent.

Sonesta
Jan. 1, 2008, 11:17 AM
Just popping in here to say that yesterday I went out to see how four of our horses are coming along as they get their first 90 days under saddle training (which I no longer do). I use a guy who understands dressage well, but is primarily an upscale cutting horse trainer. When I arrived he was showing to a lady a VERY green young cutting horse prospect (about 30 days into its training where this trainer doesn't even begin to touch their faces).

I about had a heart attack when this young woman told her companion "Nope. I need something a lot more broke in the face."

When she said the same thing to the trainer, he retorted "Ma'am, this horse is just 30 days into it's training and is doing VERY well. Not sure what you expect at this point. She'll be a good cutter someday." Then he turned to me, winked and said sote voce: "And......we don't BREAK horses faces here. I think she needs to look someplace else, don't you?"

WOO-HOO! Good for him!

ThreeFigs
Jan. 1, 2008, 11:30 AM
Yes indeedy, Sonesta!

Underdog
Jan. 1, 2008, 08:30 PM
UT. Thank you for saying what I was thinking about Bill and his methods.

I wasn't tying to preach anything. I kinda got his message in between the lines.

I think today's problems are still echoed thru time with ppl and equines.

Nobody listens anymore.
Everyone talks and wants to be heard.

I did see Leslie is coming to MD in March and I'm willing to give it a look.
I do like what Mr. Dorrance was trying to convey.
It happens on the ground B4 the ridding happens.
You form the bond of trust and put the time in.
No shortcuts.

eventmom
Jan. 1, 2008, 08:41 PM
I read the title of this thread to my husband sitting across the room. He suggested that he would use a hammer:eek::eek::lol::lol:

Alpha Mare
Jan. 1, 2008, 11:16 PM
first break the rider in the head, then the seat, then the hands and shoulders, then you have a chance.

rebreak the rider's head from time to time as needed.

pophorse
Jan. 2, 2008, 06:45 AM
Posted by slc
You have the bronze medalist from the Pan Am games on here.
slc who do you refer to? from which Pan Am games?

ThreeFigs
Jan. 2, 2008, 01:07 PM
first break the rider in the head, then the seat, then the hands and shoulders, then you have a chance.

rebreak the rider's head from time to time as needed.


Excellent! Can we start with Hoot & Tick?

Pophorse -- did you know Borat's "dead"? You'll have to pick someone else for prez.

ESG
Jan. 2, 2008, 02:44 PM
To sum it up - Umm,.........no.

That is the most ridiculous broad brushed statement I've ever heard. WTF?:confused:

I've ridden Western my entire life and NEVER have done what you presume to know about teaching a Western horse. :no:

Did I say "all Western riders"? No, I did not. So, unless you're one of the aforementioned, you haven't a problem, have you?

Sheesh. :rolleyes:

JB
Jan. 2, 2008, 04:08 PM
ESG, you said " Western teaches..."

Not "some Western trainers teach..."
Not "some Western disciplines teach..."

Leaving out "some/many/most/several" gives the implication of "all"

pophorse
Jan. 2, 2008, 08:30 PM
Despite some unsubstantiated rumors of his early demise, Borat will run in 2008!
I like!!! :lol:

slc2
Jan. 3, 2008, 06:55 AM
sorry, gold medal pan amist.

borat would be a far superior candidate to what we have. a real fresh approach to anti semitism.

ThreeFigs
Jan. 3, 2008, 11:39 AM
Sasha Baron Cohen "killed" Borat. He announced it in December. Sorry.

OK, carry on with making H & T very, very happy with all the sniping. Where IS H & T, anyway? Sitting back with a bottle of Jack, watching the fun?

perpetual_novice
Jan. 3, 2008, 01:02 PM
Despite some unsubstantiated rumors of his early demise, Borat will run in 2008!
I like!!! :lol:

You Americans -- Borat could never have been your President anyway. He wasn't born in the USA and you folks don't accept imports for that job.



OK, carry on with making H & T very, very happy with all the sniping. Where IS H & T, anyway? Sitting back with a bottle of Jack, watching the fun? :D :D

I guess she figures her work here is done.

JSwan
Jan. 3, 2008, 01:11 PM
Sorry sportsfans - I called her on it and she told me to go to hell, started a thread telling me to go to hell, and then started another thread telling the entire BB to go to hell. I think there may have been an a**kicking offer in there too. (My a** - which is an easy target because it's REALLY big)

So we're all in hell.

I don't know where H&T is.

Happy New Year.

Sithly
Jan. 3, 2008, 01:13 PM
This thread title makes me laugh every time it pops up.

:lol:

GoingForBronze
Jan. 3, 2008, 03:31 PM
How long is everybody going to beat a horse that died a long time ago from a broken face???:winkgrin::winkgrin::winkgrin::winkgrin::wi nkgrin::winkgrin::winkgrin:

~Freedom~
Jan. 3, 2008, 04:22 PM
sorry, gold medal pan amist.




Be careful about all those medications you are on SLC, they can have side effects you know.

caffeinated
Jan. 3, 2008, 04:23 PM
So we're all in hell.

I don't know where H&T is.

Happy New Year.


*giggle*

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Jan. 3, 2008, 06:42 PM
I will add...as one to never let a train wreck get back on track...that I do have this fear that if I go down a very steep hill, Ted's hocks will break and fall off, just like a Breyer's. But I think his face would remain intact.

perpetual_novice
Jan. 3, 2008, 07:30 PM
I will add...as one to never let a train wreck get back on track...that I do have this fear that if I go down a very steep hill, Ted's hocks will break and fall off, just like a Breyer's. But I think his face would remain intact.

Oh, but that would not be "broken in the hock" -- I believe the correct phrase for that is "going into hock".

Horses who have gone into hock rarely exhibit breaks in the face.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Jan. 3, 2008, 08:00 PM
I don't think you need to break the hock to go into hock. In fact, I believe they can be perfectly sound and you can still go into hock.

perpetual_novice
Jan. 3, 2008, 10:09 PM
I don't think you need to break the hock to go into hock. In fact, I believe they can be perfectly sound and you can still go into hock.

Oops, you're right. I was getting this thread confused with that getting broke in the pocket thread, that one titled "Go into debt for a horse??? "

Kementari
Jan. 4, 2008, 03:13 AM
Sorry sportsfans - I called her on it and she told me to go to hell, started a thread telling me to go to hell, and then started another thread telling the entire BB to go to hell. I think there may have been an a**kicking offer in there too. (My a** - which is an easy target because it's REALLY big)

So we're all in hell.

I don't know where H&T is.

Happy New Year.

Well, I guess that means my TB is right: dressage IS hell. :eek: :lol:

JSwan
Jan. 4, 2008, 07:03 AM
Oops, you're right. I was getting this thread confused with that getting broke in the pocket thread, that one titled "Go into debt for a horse??? "


Oh - that is the real meaning of the word "Baroque"

It means, you are out of Monet.

AnotherRound
Jan. 4, 2008, 09:32 AM
It means, you are out of Monet

See, now, that's why I rely on the cheap port. Especially early in the morning, with a shot of Gin. I was recently asked "Do you put gin in your cheap port in the morning? I find it cuts the sweetness just enough to make the Count Chocula coco pops taste palatable." Now its gin with my port or nothing.

~Freedom~
Jan. 4, 2008, 09:36 AM
See, now, that's why I rely on the cheap port. Especially early in the morning, with a shot of Gin. I was recently asked "Do you put gin in your cheap port in the morning? I find it cuts the sweetness just enough to make the Count Chocula coco pops taste palatable." Now its gin with my port or nothing.

Methinks someone is VERY experienced with their drinks.

AnotherRound
Jan. 4, 2008, 09:39 AM
And you thought "Another Round" referred to "Ho, hum, just 'another round' (or class) in the equitation ring, same old same old". :cool:

JSwan
Jan. 4, 2008, 09:46 AM
See, now, that's why I rely on the cheap port. Especially early in the morning, with a shot of Gin. I was recently asked "Do you put gin in your cheap port in the morning? I find it cuts the sweetness just enough to make the Count Chocula coco pops taste palatable." Now its gin with my port or nothing.

Peasant.

Everyone knows that single malt scotch is the drink of choice with Count Chocula. You don't sport a mullet, do you?

Now - if we're talking about Cap'n Crunch - I'd agree.

Though I suppose Jaegermeister might be good with Cocoapuffs.

Heck - after a few swigs I wouldn't care. :D

You know - this reminds me. I need to make a trip to the liquor store. My stash is getting low and hunting season isn't over.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Jan. 4, 2008, 10:34 AM
All of you are wrong. You buy the cereal by the toy in the box, and if you'd all been paying attention you would know that you could be getting weeny mini Xbox things with your frosted flakes and froot loops.

Both of which, I might add, also go wonderfully well in bran mashes, so really, you're buying food for both you and your horse.

Tamara in TN
Jan. 4, 2008, 10:42 AM
Peasant.


Though I suppose Jaegermeister might be good with Cocoapuffs.

.

Barenjager adds a touch of honey :winkgrin:

Tamara in TN

JSwan
Jan. 4, 2008, 10:48 AM
What's an X box?

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Jan. 4, 2008, 10:50 AM
It's some game thing. I have a 12 yr old nephew, this is how I know. It makes funny noises.

I save all these toys in their wrappers in a huge tub and one day it will all show up on ebay and will pay for my (and my horse's) retirement.

It's a cereal! No, it's a 401(k)!

JSwan
Jan. 4, 2008, 10:57 AM
Wow. Being a hermit has a down side. I'm missing out on little boxes that make funny noises.

I think I'll have another drink. :winkgrin:

Geez. It's quiet around here. Maybe I should start a rollkur thread. The DQ's like to descend en masse and perform group smackdowns. They're really good at it, too. That would warm everyone up. I'm freezing.

But - alas - barn chores beckon.....

Kathy Johnson
Jan. 4, 2008, 10:58 AM
All of you are wrong. You buy the cereal by the toy in the box, and if you'd all been paying attention you would know that you could be getting weeny mini Xbox things with your frosted flakes and froot loops.

Both of which, I might add, also go wonderfully well in bran mashes, so really, you're buying food for both you and your horse.

To continue this absurdist path, did you know that rice bran is very tasty with milk and sugar?

To get a horse broke in the face, first teach them learned helplessness, break them in the third vertebrae with drawreins, chambons, widgets and weapons, then mobilize the jaw until they look they are chewing gum. Be sure to tie the mouth closed with both a crank and a flash so they don't chew with their mouth open. If they don't give to the side, tie the head to the tail. When in doubt, bit up.

ride-n-tx
Jan. 4, 2008, 11:00 AM
LMAO!!!!, I don't know what is funnier; the "broke in the face" comments here or the mullets and rolling pin gone wild in the horse care section! :winkgrin:

Thanks guys, work is a whole lot more interesting!

Ponyclubrocks
Jan. 4, 2008, 12:22 PM
Anyone here notice that you all are on page ten and the OP disappeared at page two? All the OP had to do was wind your key! :lol:

ThreeFigs
Jan. 4, 2008, 01:02 PM
You're right! Embarrassing, huh?

J Swan, if you can get H & T to go away, can do do the same with Auventera Two?

monstrpony
Jan. 4, 2008, 01:32 PM
To continue this absurdist path, did you know that rice bran is very tasty with milk and sugar?

To get a horse broke in the face, first teach them learned helplessness, break them in the third vertebrae with drawreins, chambons, widgets and weapons, then mobilize the jaw until they look they are chewing gum. Be sure to tie the mouth closed with both a crank and a flash so they don't chew with their mouth open. If they don't give to the side, tie the head to the tail. When in doubt, bit up.


D'oh! Kathy! That's HOW you teach learned helplessness; you can't START with the LH!! Unless there's something you dressageists aren't telling me...

I may have to try the rice bran thing--is it okay to use soy milk? What about maple syrup?

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Jan. 4, 2008, 01:40 PM
Soy milk is eveil,whereas maple syrup can be used with just about everything.

monstrpony
Jan. 4, 2008, 04:13 PM
Soy milk is eveil,whereas maple syrup can be used with just about everything.

Ha! Clearly you haven't hit menopause yet...

JSwan
Jan. 4, 2008, 04:18 PM
You're right! Embarrassing, huh?

J Swan, if you can get H & T to go away, can do do the same with Auventera Two?


Well - Then the only person left to vilify would be me! Yikes!

RHdobes563
Jan. 4, 2008, 04:28 PM
Oh - that is the real meaning of the word "Baroque"

It means, you are out of Monet.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Jan. 4, 2008, 04:29 PM
Uh oh. Does hitting menopause mean you have to drink soy milk? If so - lead me to those hormones! I'll be in menopause denial.

Picasso
Jan. 4, 2008, 04:46 PM
No, in fact, we don't do ANYTHING to get the horse in that position. Nothing.

No ying-yangin', jerkin' the reins, 'bumping him on the mouth with the bit', 'spongeing the reins', pulling on the outside and yankin' on the inside rein, Nuthin.



THANK YOU. May I print this out and hang it up at my barn? I once caught my daughter see-sawing on her pony. I screeched "STOP RIGHT THIS MINUTE" and asked why she was doing that as I know she had never seen me do that, nor had she been taught this by her trainer. She replied "I heard (insert the other trainer at our barn's name here) tell her student that is how you get your horse on the bit". Scary.

And now back to regular programming...

~Freedom~
Jan. 4, 2008, 05:36 PM
Ha! Clearly you haven't hit menopause yet...


Lets not go there. I still have nightmares over SLC's menopausal post.


mysogynist? hardly. i'm a 'menopauser' too, and i can tell you, that every single person experiences it differently - just because one person had an easy time of it, doesn't mean everyone else does. some people have no problems, some people have slight problems. some people have problems that respond to herbs, others to medication - some have serious problems that respond to NOTHING, or they can't take the medications avaliable for various reasons. if one does sweat alot as a result of menopause, however, body odor can be a problem.

not everyone can afford medication to ease their way thru it. there's a gal at my office who goes home to shower at lunch - not all the deodorant, bathing in the world helps. she sweats very hard and a fan, light clothes and nothing else will stop it.

i know another gal having a very tough time with menopause - she does much the same - she has money, but she can't take any medications to ease her way thru menopause because she is a cancer survivor, and the doctor fears taking the medication for menopause would increase her risk of a cancer relapse.

the other possibility is that this woman yu can 'Stinky' has a difficult job that involves physical work - and she may not have time to freshen up before coming to the boarding barn. you may not have ever had a job that involves physical work, or been on a difficult schedule.

and, yes, actually, mouth odor can have dozens of sources - indigestion, ulcers, or a zillion other conditions the person can do little about. and yes, tooth loss can be something that has nothing to do with the person's own efforts to keep them.

congrats, nezzy, i've never met anyone as stubborn and nasty as you. despite hearing many opinions on this matter you refuse to listen to any other idea other than your own or take even one SECOND to consider the woman may not be your personal business to judge and cut down and look down your nose at.

some day you will learn, that it's not your bonded responsibility to decide who in the world has value, and who does not.

i feel sorry for someone in this mix - you.

shawneeAcres
Jan. 4, 2008, 05:43 PM
I have read thru a good bit of this and here are my "observations". "Broke in the face" is a term that many stock type people use to mean "soft". A very good friend of mine, who is also a clinet (her daughter rides with me) has had top reining horses and that is exactly what they say to mean a horse that is soft and gives to rein pressure. They WANT the horse to be light to the aids. Now some of the trainers do it very very well, and some use some pretty awful techniques which I ahve witnessed with my own eyes. But to label them ALL as awful trainers jsut is ignorant. Stock horse people have their own "terminoglogy" just the same as dressage people do. It doesn't necessarily MEAN anything. I am not going to comment on the OP's trechniques as I cannot tell from her posts exactly what she is or si nto doing and really don't want to go there. I just want to say what I have seen and I ahve learned a LOT from good stock hrose trainers over the years.

Kathy Johnson
Jan. 4, 2008, 07:39 PM
Soy milk is eveil,whereas maple syrup can be used with just about everything.
Ha! Clearly you haven't hit menopause yet...

Soy milk is evil and gives you gas, which may be part of the "Stinky" post, but that was maybe more info than I needed, so I didn't read closely. Rice milk, my perimenopausal, lactose intolerant, diverticulosis and colitis inclined friends, is the ONLY way to go. It works well with the rice bran, and of course we don't do real sugar, but honey, maple syrup or whichever of the sugar substitutes is least likely to give you cancer.

monstrpony
Jan. 4, 2008, 09:48 PM
But does rice milk have those lovely phytoestrogens that hold the hot flashes at bay? Didn't think so. It works for me, and no stink factor.

Well, as slick said, each of us has our own menopausal moderators, or none at all if we're one of the unlucky ones. Whatever works. Or not.

Kind of like dressage, but not really. Or only on Sunday in months that don't contain the letter "r", or some such.

Hey, maybe that's the answer--at least, how our MEN get broke in the face: menopausal madness.:winkgrin:

Huntertwo
Jan. 4, 2008, 10:23 PM
Did I say "all Western riders"? No, I did not. So, unless you're one of the aforementioned, you haven't a problem, have you?

Sheesh. :rolleyes:

You said "Western teaches......" In my book that implies ALL.