When Lungeing, Roundpenning and Groundwork Don't Calm Your Horse

[grey_mare]

I would like to hear about anyone who has found that lunging/roundpenning/groundwork for and extended period of time wasn't enough to take all the freshness out of a young and energetic green horse.

I usually expect that after forty five or fifty minutes of lunging, free-lunging, roundpenning and groundwork a horse will be completely calm. (unless its an arabian :)). This is my heretofore foolproof "calming supplement" on windy days, or before a trail ride where we will be cantering, before a lesson, etc.

To make a long story short, I have recently seen my young horse get exited while cantering (kicking out, mini-bucks, etc...not a true explosion or anything) even after all of the above. I would have never expected this. Is this common? I'm amazed that a horse's nerves/excitement could defy nearly an hour of hard physical/mental exercise.

[horsegirl520]

This can be my horse at horseshows. I think its just the adrenaline. Even if he is physically tired, he can still drag me around... and jumps poorly because he's tired. I've tried everything from minimizing his feed, to lunging, to working under saddle, to supplements, etc. It's just the way he is. Some days he's completely relaxed, but on days when he's fresh/nervous/excited, there isn't much I can do to make him relax. I have noticed that putting him on the lunge for a few minutes, just before I get on (no sidereins) just to let him loosen up his back and relax does help sometimes (15 mins max). The more physically tired he is, the worse he performs, and I've determined it's nearly impossible to exhaust him mentally (which is what really needs to chill).

Good luck! He might get better as he matures or when the weather warms up again.

Also, you don't want to make your horse too fit. If you lunge him for 50 mins before you get on every time, he's just going to need more and more lunging to make him tired.

[vanheimrhorses]

it is lack of turn out time in a large field where the horse can truly gallop about, and he needs probably four hours outside before you longe him and then ride him, maybe adjust his grain intake too and give him free choice hay and less grain

[Manes&Tails]

You need to get hold of the horses face, tie his head down with reins to the side of the saddle. I also run my reins between the front legs and tie them on top of the saddle, and this is on a horse that has been worked many times and wont flip over backwards.

I only have to round pen her about 15 min, then all done and ready for a nice ride.

You have to find away to get hold of the horses face. Calms them down every time.

[JB]

You need to get hold of the horses face, tie his head down with reins to the side of the saddle. I also run my reins between the front legs and tie them on top of the saddle, and this is on a horse that has been worked many times and wont flip over backwards.
OMG, seriously???

If anyone is having to roundpen/lunge a horse for 45 minutes just to be able to ride, one needs to re-evaluate the situation. Either the horse is inherently too hot for you to handle (ie "professional's" horse vs "amateur's" horse), or the turnout situation isn't working, or the diet is wrong, or there is a lack of basic training.

[Petstorejunkie]

You need to get hold of the horses face, tie his head down with reins to the side of the saddle. I also run my reins between the front legs and tie them on top of the saddle, and this is on a horse that has been worked many times and wont flip over backwards.

I only have to round pen her about 15 min, then all done and ready for a nice ride.

You have to find away to get hold of the horses face. Calms them down every time.

:lol: please tell me you are joking

[Manes&Tails]

:lol: please tell me you are joking

Works like a charm, no different from driving one or using a sursingle except you use the saddle.

I know several top trainers that do this.

My mare can be in heat and bucking bronco and roundpen her with the reins tied to the saddle where she can't do whatever she wants she gives it up.

Many riders tie their horses heads around and down to teach the horse to give the bit and learn to flex.

I know one trainer that would tied his horses head around and let him stand in the stall for awhile everytime he tried to buck while being ridden.

[JB]

I know one trainer that would tied his horses head around and let him stand in the stall for awhile everytime he tried to buck while being ridden.
And I guarantee that by the time he gets back to his stall and gets his head tied around, he makes ZERO connection to bucking while under saddle. None.

[Christa P]

You need to get hold of the horses face, tie his head down with reins to the side of the saddle. I also run my reins between the front legs and tie them on top of the saddle, and this is on a horse that has been worked many times and wont flip over backwards.

I only have to round pen her about 15 min, then all done and ready for a nice ride.

You have to find away to get hold of the horses face. Calms them down every time.

Before everybody goes nuts about this I think more explanation is needed, I have seen this - mostly in western barns.

The first part of tying the reins to the saddle - replace reins with sidereins to the girth and the idea is the same. No big deal.

The second part of tying between the front legs is more like using a side reins very low, but the reins in question are western length so they are long enough to go between the front legs and to the saddle without being way too short.

Christa P

Who has used side reins for warm up on occasion.

[Manes&Tails]

You need to first learn what someone means when they use the term get hold of thier face.

You have to get the horse broke in the face to the bit, etc, etc!!!

It is mostly using your reins as if you are riding but you are working your horse on the ground so if the horse does, buck, flip over, try and run off you are not on him.

I see this used at all the clinics, RFD TV, and by many riders and trainers.

Since I started doing this I have not had a horse run off, buck, act silly are anything. I have had NO riding accidents since. Now I don't have to put up with and ill horse for hours while on his back, just work him like this for 15 min and they are ready for a good ride.

[WildBlue]

OP, I did have one mare (a TB) that I never could get tired, calm, and paying attention. That was just her--she was an Energizer Bunny and probably would have made a heck of an endurance horse. Very sweet and sensible, just always had a ton of energy. She kept the rest of my herd fit running all over the big pasture, day and night. She would occasionally forget herself and throw happy bucks while cantering under saddle. I found that the most effective deterrant was to make her stop immediately and stand still for a few seconds. Having to stand was a fate worse than death.

I have another one now like horsegirl described. When she likes something, she gets very excited about doing it. Even when she's really tired, she's still wound up and ready to go. With her, I practice time outs and make her do something boring until she can behave herself.

ETA: All of my work is done under saddle. If a horse is extremely fresh and full of itself, I'll start in an arena or small, boring area. We do a bunch of trotting, up and down transitions from halt to trot, patterns, etc. until the horse has settled somewhat (i.e. is less likely to blow up), and then we go out to the big hill and do some work there. We don't do canter or gallop work until I'm pretty sure their brains won't fall out. I'm trying to get them fit as well as settled down and fairly safe, so that routine works well.

But in answer to what you're describing, yes, a lot of horses can still be 'up' after an hour of work, even mentally and physically challenging u/s work. To me it's a sign that the horse will probably need a career/owner that'll give their energy an outlet.

[spoiledsweet]

At the most I would expect it to take 20 or 30 min. max for a young one to get the bucks out. If not, he may be eating too much high-energy feed and/or hay. He may also need more turnout or simply not be a good match or suited for the job you would like him to do. I have to say, for a really hot one, living outside works quite well. Also keep in mind that when you longe or roundpen a horse, you are making him fitter. Eventually you will run out of daylight.

[dancersdressagegroom]

The more you lunge the fitter the horse becomes, the more you have to lunge.

[Sithly]

You are experiencing a wonderful phenomenon: fitness. :D

IMO, the true purpose of the round pen (when used correctly) is to use specific exercises to focus the horse's attention on you. You use your body language to communicate with the horse. It's not meant to force compliance through exhaustion -- that's what gives round penning a bad name.

Same with longing. If you watch somone very skilled at it, they usually have some type of purpose to the exercise, some higher goal or at least a vision of what they'd like the horse to learn. It's not just mindless running in circles.

To address your problem, ask yourself what your horse just learned from his lunging/round penning session. Did he learn to run in circles and get his body fit? Or did he learn to focus on you and obey your subtlest signal? If you can work on the latter, you can start to channel your horse's energy in constructive ways and (hopefully) end up with a fantastic athelete and partner. If not, as the horse gets more fit, you'll have to run him more and more to "take the edge off him." That's a lot of time wasted.

If it was my horse, I'd probably put him in training and take some lessons on him. If I was still afraid of him after that, I would sell him and get something more suitable. Not all horses are suitable for all people, and there's no shame in that.

[Tuff Tilly]

Maybe I'm not among the masses but I don't use longing/groundwork/roundpenning to tire my horses before I ride. I use it to get their attention and put them in a working frame of mind. Though sometimes I'll use it as a workout instead of riding, then we have "warmup time" and real "work time" and there is a distinct difference in the horses' attitude between the phases.

If my horse throws in a couple of bucks or some sass while longing it doesn't mean they'll do the same undersaddle and I never make that assumption. Sure I like them to get their bucks out on the line vs when I'm sat in the saddle, but that's not what I use it for. I use it as a transition from "free time" in turnout to "work time" undersaddle.

I also use it to gague how "on" the horse is, and to check for lameness or other things I may have missed during grooming and tacking up.

[LockeMeadows]

The more you lunge the fitter the horse becomes, the more you have to lunge.

Amen! We never lunge our horses for more than 10-15 minutes total and it is for training purposes only! If you are lunging for almost an hour then a) the horse is too fit for its intended purpose b) it needs more turn-out c) its diet needs to be adjusted. It may be prudent to address a, b, and c before lunging further.

[JB]

Maybe I'm not among the masses but I don't use longing/groundwork/roundpenning to tire my horses before I ride. I use it to get their attention and put them in a working frame of mind. Though sometimes I'll use it as a workout instead of riding, then we have "warmup time" and real "work time" and there is a distinct difference in the horses' attitude between the phases.

You're exactly right, and this is what I should have stated in my first post. My post was referring to "it's not going to work" if you're using it for physical exhaustion. I have absolutely no problem doing constructive groundwork that is geared towards getting the horse to think, not react, and to just get focused on you. Yes, some horses might take an hour of this before being mentally safe to ride - that's fine. If in 2 years you still have to do an hour of this, something's not right. But absolutely, if a horse is being a fruitcake, get a long lead line or lunge line on and get the horse's brain busy. It's not a matter of putting him out there and making/letting him run in circles for 30 minutes - that doesn't get you anything but a tired horse this time and a more fit one next time.

[katarine]

make sure said horse has ample turnout time and the right diet.

teach horse to give laterally. Like REALLY give.

case in point:
frightened, overstimulated, young, fit TWH. rode him in a plain, slow twist snaffle (he'd lean on a smooth). taught him that if my body went neutral, and I asked his nose to my knee, that he'd stay there UNTIL he relaxed, stood still, and gave me his nose. Then we'd go to the other knee and repeat til done. In time he learned to relax, stand still, and flex in both directions softly, happily. we made this a normal, at home routine.

FF to a little horse show. rode him into the arena and it was horrible- he was a barely controlled, scared, hopped up demon horse. Terrified. Afraid I'd ear him down or worse- truly- he was racing around with his left ear pinned down and his right in OMG mode- not pretty. People avoided us in the warm up sort of not pretty> So, I sat soft, laughed softly at him, and asked him to bend and give. the first 10 or even 2 were a bit of a mexican standoff, but in about 10-15 minutes he was PUTTY. Walking, slowly and calmly, on a slack rein.

Teach him there's a place thats calm and quiet, then show him how to go there.

[sid]

I haven't read all the answers, just the post.

I don't ever use lunging to take the energy out of the horse...only to train obedience to the gait asked for and particularly for the transitions within the gaits.

It sounds to me like lunging is being used for the wrong reasons and executed incorrectly.

[sublimequine]

You need to get hold of the horses face, tie his head down with reins to the side of the saddle. I also run my reins between the front legs and tie them on top of the saddle, and this is on a horse that has been worked many times and wont flip over backwards.

I only have to round pen her about 15 min, then all done and ready for a nice ride.

You have to find away to get hold of the horses face. Calms them down every time.

I'm sorry but that is the WORST advice I have ever heard. :no:

If I tied my mare's head down and just let her loose, she would have a conniption and most likely injure herself. Just like sidereins, anything that restricts a horse's head needs to be introduced gradually. Telling someone to tie their young horse's head to the saddle without mentioning anything about gradual and slow introduction is a disaster waiting to happen.

Also, if the horse doesn't absolutely panic and explode on you, it surely can teach them that they can lean, lean, lean on those reins until their heart's content, and brace against rein pressure. That's certainly not what you want, either!

As for tieing the reins under the front legs and up, that's dangerous, too. If the horse puts its head down long and low, they can very easily step on the reins that way.

[sid]

Hoof & Tick...you can force a horse into almost anything, but what you posted is just pitiful not only from a training standpoint, but from an ethical standpoint. Good Lord, keep your training methods to yourself. Some people here are really trying to learn things that keep the horse in mind. I would hate for neophytes to think what you are proposing is appropriate.

[HiddenStars826]

I usually only do groundwork for maybe 5-10 minutes, if at all before I ride. The main point of it then is to get my horse focused on what I'm asking him, and realizing that we are no longer in "play around by ourself" mode. Any longer than 10 minutes, and it usually backfires- he loves groundwork, and has a tendency to get pretty fired up by it.

The only time I spend longer than 10 minutes is if I'm working on a few particular things. If he's a bit off that day, or I don't have time to ride, I'll spend a half hour or so on groundwork, but the purpose is always to teach or refine something, iron out a problem spot from a previous day's pre-ride session, etc. On those days, I still never use it to tire him out physically. It would be hard to do that, considering we use those days for a lot of slower work.

I don't agree with lunging to get the horse tired. As others have said, it usually only creates a more fit animal and takes longer and longer each time to get them tired. In addition, it can be a recipe for disaster. If, after lunging for that period of time, the horse is finally tired, it is probably the wrong thing to do to ride them. Especially on the trails. If they are starting to get tired on the lunge line, what happens when you add weight on their back with a saddle and rider? Doing ring work can be damaging for a tired horse, if they aren't using their bodies correctly they can hurt themselves, and taking them out on the trails can be harmful as well- a tired horse isn't going to be able to pick up their feet and respond to the terrain as well out there.

[Manes&Tails]

Hoof & Tick...you can force a horse into almost anything, but what you posted is just pitiful not only from a training standpoint, but from an ethical standpoint. Good Lord, keep your training methods to yourself. Some people here are really trying to learn things that keep the horse in mind. I would hate for neophytes to think what you are proposing is appropriate.


Same thing you do from the saddle, but do it from the ground so you don't get hurt!

Works for me and many others! I will stick with what works and is safe and much safer for the horse to be in control then just running around in circles like crazy!!!

[Woodland]

The more you lunge the fitter the horse becomes, the more you have to lunge.


Ditto!

I get horses in for training all the time that have been lunged/round penned half to death. They are fit and SASSY! After the gimmicks they sell this is the biggest pet peeve I have with the "As seen on TV" guru's. Too much ground work not enough "shut up & ride". ;)

Get your horse turned out all day every day. Be sure his diet is appropriate and not "too hot" for him.

There is valid theory in the suggestion of Hoot & Tick. Your guy needs to get his head in the game. Right now he equates your "warm up" routine with play time. Adding side reins, Xpando reins, tying him down or around - as long as you FULLY grasp the technique and competence to do it - will help him focus and "get his head on straight".

When he is done working, throw a cooler on him and tie him up short in his stall and walk away for half an hour. I am betting he is antsy in the crossties as well. He'll most likely fuss and fidget - ignore him - he is a green horse = toddler needing a time out!

Green horses - you must engage their minds if you want to get them working under saddle. Change their direction and change their mind. Think think think. I love to W -T over ground poles on the lunge- sometimes small X's. I often tie them out under the big cottonwood for an hour before I start working them - to get the fidgets out. It's amazing the quiet conclusions they come to after an hour of fruitless arguing with a 60' tree.

Hey they don't come in for training because they are good - do they? :no: They come in because they are fit, sassy, and unattentive. My job for the last nearly 3 decades has been to shape them in to happy eager to please good ponies :)

[sublimequine]

Same thing you do from the saddle, but do it from the ground so you don't get hurt!

Works for me and many others! I will stick with what works and is safe and much safer for the horse to be in control then just running around in circles like crazy!!!

There's so many things about what you said that is very unsafe for the horse. I'd rather have the horse "running in circles like crazy" than what you suggested. :no:

[Manes&Tails]

There's so many things about what you said that is very unsafe for the horse. I'd rather have the horse "running in circles like crazy" than what you suggested. :no:

You are somewhat correct and somewhat wrong, a horse can really hurt himself in more ways running around uncontrolled then under control. I have not been buck off, run off with in over 6 years with my training. My horses have not been hurt also. Before when they did not have their heads tied they would and could hurt themselves much worse.

You must have the horse broke in the face and have hold of his face if you are going to get anywhere!

I have not been hurt and my horses have not been hurt this way, and yes a person must be shown and taught just like any other training skills they may use.

No different then training a horse to wear a tie down for the first time, or training them to break at the poll and be soft.

[sublimequine]

You are somewhat correct and somewhat wrong, a horse can really hurt himself in more ways running around uncontrolled then under control. I have not been buck off, run off with in over 6 years with my training. My horses have not been hurt also. Before when they did not have their heads tied they would and could hurt themselves much worse.

You must have the horse broke in the face and have hold of his face if you are going to get anywhere!

I have not been hurt and my horses have not been hurt this way, and yes a person must be shown and taught just like any other training skills they may use.

No different then training a horse to wear a tie down for the first time, or training them to break at the poll and be soft.

Just because a horse's head is tied doesn't automatically make them "under control". I've seen a whole lot of horses completely out of control with tiedowns on of some sort. Just look at this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DnGwMS3RRMA

That horse's head is tied. It didn't do ANYTHING to control the horse, at all.

And perhaps if you teach the horse how to wear side reins or the reins tied to the saddle first before actually employing this method, it would be safer. But you didn't mention anything about that in your original post. You basically said to tie the youngster down and send him right back out on the lunge.

[sid]

H& T...what are you talking about? How do you presume to know how others here train/lunge beyond the problems the OP posted about..or how one rides? There are a lot of extremely knowledgeable horsemen and trainers who frequent the BB, so don't embarrass youself.

I think you need to go over to the "She's Baaaack" thead on the Off Course forum

[Manes&Tails]

H& T...what are you talking about? How do you presume to know how others here train/lunge beyond the problems the OP posted about..or how one rides? There are a lot of extremely knowledgeable horsemen and trainers who frequent the BB, so don't embarrass youself.

I think you need to go over to the "She's Baaaack" thead on the Off Course forum

There is nothing I do with my horses on the ground that riders/trainers don't use in the saddle. I take it slowly first. Any horse has to be broke in face to be able to any type of riding safely.

No different then lungeing a horse with the bit, etc.

If you don't loosen up the back end and get hold of the face he most likely will not be safe to ride.

[Manes&Tails]

H& T...what are you talking about? How do you presume to know how others here train/lunge beyond the problems the OP posted about..or how one rides? There are a lot of extremely knowledgeable horsemen and trainers who frequent the BB, so don't embarrass youself.

I think you need to go over to the "She's Baaaack" thead on the Off Course forum

Do you never tie your horses head to the side with the reins tied to the saddle? No different then sitting on them and doing this, and its more safe.

[Woodland]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DnGwMS3RRMA




You are comparing a bronc with a tie down to the discussion here? :eek:

Good God - Apples to Oranges!!!!

You obviously have no concept of the technique H & T described if you think it's in ANY WAY similar! :no:

Props to the guy in the video :cool:

[sublimequine]

You are comparing a bronc with a tie down to the discussion here? :eek:

Good God - Apples to Oranges!!!!

You obviously have no concept of the technique H & T described if you think it's in ANY WAY similar! :no:

Props to the guy in the video :cool:

It was an example of how tiedowns don't make a horse under control. I already said that. :confused:

[Manes&Tails]

It was an example of how tiedowns don't make a horse under control. I already said that. :confused:

Once the horse understand that he could not act crazy and just get more crazy or get the rider to leave him alone he quit, the trainer got hold of the horses face and got the horse thinking about controlling himself and cut the crazy crap out.

A friend of mine once purchased a beautiful mare that no one could get control of, she purchased the horse very cheap because of this problem. She took the horse and tied it and let is thrash, paw act crazy and when she learned that it wasn't getting her anywhere, she gave it up, the horse was not hurt and she became a very gentle and willing riding horse. Yes, a horse can get hurt, but sometimes with some horses thats what it takes, better the horse get hurt than the rider.

My mare would act like that without being tied down, but getting hold of her face she would not act like that.

[sublimequine]

Once the horse understand that he could not act crazy and just get more crazy or get the rider to leave him alone he quit, the trainer got hold of the horses face and got the horse thinking about controlling himself and cut the crazy crap out.

A friend of mine once purchased a beautiful mare that no one could get control of, she purchased the horse very cheap because of this problem. She took the horse and tied it and let is thrash, paw act crazy and when she learned that it wasn't getting her anywhere, she gave it up, the horse was not hurt and she became a very gentle and willing riding horse. Yes, a horse can get hurt, but sometimes with some horses thats what it takes, better the horse get hurt than the rider.

My mare would act like that without being tied down, but getting hold of her face she would not act like that.

This is all of course my own personal opinion, but I don't think you should have to rely on tieing the horse's head down to control it, whether in or out of the saddle.

Also, there are safer ways to quiet down a wild/untrained/angry/whatever horse. Why you would employ methods that aren't as safe for the horse, I don't know. Again, my opinion.

[Mendin Fences]

I would recommend using your lunging time to work on voice commands and asking for lots of transitions. My mare is kind of high strung and needs to be lunged to get her focused before I ride her sometimes and asking for lots of transitions helps to do that. Make sure you change directions and work both ways equally too.
Any longer than 20 minutes is too much though and your horse may start getting tired/bored/irritated with going around in circles. I find that my horse will buck and act out if she's too fresh or too tired, so you have to find a happy balance somewhere in between. :)

[Manes&Tails]

There's so many things about what you said that is very unsafe for the horse. I'd rather have the horse "running in circles like crazy" than what you suggested. :no:

I wonder why so many surcingle are purchased and sold so people can lunge their horse while their head is tied?

I do the same thing with my saddle that people use surcingles for.

[sublimequine]

I wonder why so many surcingle are purchased and sold so people can lunge their horse while their head is tied?

I do the same thing with my saddle that people use surcingles for.

I already explained that the fact that you left out the actual part of introducing the horse slowly and gradually to your method was the unsafe part. Putting side reins on a horse without introducing it first is just as bad.

[Woodland]

This is an approximate of what I think would help - great for attitude adjusting.


http://www.horseproblems.com.au/Photo's/Mouthing/running%20reins.JPG


http://www.horseproblems.com.au/Photo's/Mouthing/RunninReinsLow.jpg



Can easily be done using a saddle in place of a surcingle.

[sublimequine]

This is an approximate of what I think would help - great for attitude adjusting.

http://www.horseproblems.com.au/Photo's/Mouthing/RunninReinsLow.jpg

To me though (maybe the OP can clear it up), it doesn't sound like the horse has a bad attitude, it's just young, fresh, and feeling good.

[Manes&Tails]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngjPSzMW_CE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W_aThn47Ts&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGGwoTxCUpc&feature=related

These horses are all being worked with their heads tied in some way.

I have used the line tied of the poll like in the first video, it works very well.

[sublimequine]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngjPSzMW_CE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W_aThn47Ts&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGGwoTxCUpc&feature=related

These horses are all being worked with their heads tied in some way.

I have used the line tied of the poll like in the first video, it works very well.

Yeah, and I bet ya anything if you took it all off, the horses wouldn't be a bucking rearing kicking exploding crazy mess. Like I said, the tiedowns are not what controls the horse. Proper training does.

[Showjumper28]

You teach the horse nothing with these gadgets. And let me tell you something horses are just like children, you can lock a kid in there room, but if they don't want to listen, then they don't.

Tying a horses head down... Good God... You are a chiropractor's worst nightmare and and yet you are the ones keeping them in business. Learn how to train and work a horse properly and you wouldn't need any of this in order to change a "bad attitude". Not to mention, side reins are ment to help build fitness and strength, without having a rider on its back. AND SHOULD NEVER BE USED AS A FORM OF PUNISHMENT!!! You need a role model! I just have no words left to describe the disgust and disappointment I feel right now.

Please excuse my snarkiness but I feel very strongly about this.

[Woodland]

To me though (maybe the OP can clear it up), it doesn't sound like the horse has a bad attitude, it's just young, fresh, and feeling good.

A young horse with it's head in the clouds and not on it's owners desires. Engage brain to disengage "freshness". A horse can feel very good about pleasing it's owner when taught self discipline. Achievable with minimal stress through tying up to a solid object - tree or wall to promote focus. Achievable through engaging brain by varying warm up with side reins, running reins, cadence maker, or xpando reins. Or introducing ground poles or caveletti's. Or a combination of all three.

Just like circles, figure 8's, and serpentines help settle and focus under saddle.

ANY program change takes gradual introduction to be most effective - that is just common horse sense.

[Manes&Tails]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__zVzDy4M0M&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_l_2vvcz0vs&feature=related

[sublimequine]

You teach the horse nothing with these gadgets. And let me tell you something horses are just like children, you can lock a kid in there room, but if they don't want to listen, then they don't.

Tying a horses head down... Good God... You are a chiropractor's worst nightmare and and yet you are the ones keeping them in business. Learn how to train and work a horse properly and you wouldn't need any of this in order to change a "bad attitude". Not to mention, side reins are ment to help build fitness and strength, without having a rider on its back. AND SHOULD NEVER BE USED AS A FORM OF PUNISHMENT!!! You need a role model! I just have no words left to describe the disgust and disappointment I feel right now.

Please excuse my snarkiness but I feel very strongly about this.

THANK YOU. I feel like I'm going crazy here! :eek::eek::eek:

[Manes&Tails]

You teach the horse nothing with these gadgets. And let me tell you something horses are just like children, you can lock a kid in there room, but if they don't want to listen, then they don't.

Tying a horses head down... Good God... You are a chiropractor's worst nightmare and and yet you are the ones keeping them in business. Learn how to train and work a horse properly and you wouldn't need any of this in order to change a "bad attitude". Not to mention, side reins are ment to help build fitness and strength, without having a rider on its back. AND SHOULD NEVER BE USED AS A FORM OF PUNISHMENT!!! You need a role model! I just have no words left to describe the disgust and disappointment I feel right now.

Please excuse my snarkiness but I feel very strongly about this.

Same thing a rider does from the saddle. Are you saying you never ride you horse on the bit, ever? While riding you let your horse carrying himself hollowed backed and let him carry his head where ever he chooses?

[Manes&Tails]

THANK YOU. I feel like I'm going crazy here! :eek::eek::eek:

Dressage riders ride there horses on the bit the whole time while showing and look what their horses can do, and they are undercontrol and do what ever is asked of them without a fuss.

[Showjumper28]

A young horse with it's head in the clouds and not on it's owners desires. Engage brain to disengage "freshness". A horse can feel very good about pleasing it's owner when taught self discipline. Achievable with minimal stress through tying up to a solid object - tree or wall to promote focus. Achievable through engaging brain by varying warm up with side reins, running reins, cadence maker, or xpando reins. Or introducing ground poles or caveletti's. Or a combination of all three.

Just like circles, figure 8's, and serpentines help settle and focus under saddle.

ANY program change takes gradual introduction to be most effective - that is just common horse sense.

Your joking right? I mean you can't teach your horse self discipline and attentiveness any other way then to tie it to something? I had a horse off the track that was so abused you couldn't touch him. He didn't cross tie, you couldn't put a saddle on his back with out him flipping over and lunging was out of the question. Now he ground ties with out even a halter, lunges with slack in the lines at all times and goes beautifully under saddle. And you know how I did it? with consistant right from wrong, lots of time and praise. No need to tie his head down, because I got him to want to please me with abusing him first... Imagine that....

[sublimequine]

Dressage riders ride there horses on the bit the whole time while showing and look what their horses can do, and they are undercontrol and do what ever is asked of them without a fuss.

There's a whole lot of difference between a Dressage rider's hands and a stationery, non-moving object. :confused:

[Manes&Tails]

I can ride my mare on a loose rein at any gait most of the time, when she is feeling fisky I pull her head around and release and keep doing this until she quits.

[sublimequine]

Your joking right? I mean you can't teach your horse self discipline and attentiveness any other way then to tie it to something? I had a horse off the track that was so abused you couldn't touch him. He didn't cross tie, you couldn't put a saddle on his back with out him flipping over and lunging was out of the question. Now he ground ties with out even a halter, lunges with slack in the lines at all times and goes beautifully under saddle. And you know how I did it? with consistant right from wrong, lots of time and praise. No need to tie his head down, because I got him to want to please me with abusing him first... Imagine that....

Again, well said. :)

[Showjumper28]

What does having a horse willingly reach for and stay on the contact and forcing it's head dow have anything to do with each other? And if you think forcing it's head down is getting it to round up through the back onto its haunches and reach up under itself then you are seriously deluded!!!!

[Manes&Tails]

There's a whole lot of difference between a Dressage rider's hands and a stationery, non-moving object. :confused:

I wonder how they got to that point. And the reins that are tied do have a give to them.

[Manes&Tails]

What does having a horse willingly reach for and stay on the contact and forcing it's head dow have anything to do with each other? And if you think forcing it's head down is getting it to round up through the back onto its haunches and reach up under itself then you are seriously deluded!!!!

I guess Clinton Anderson and John Lyons is wrong also?

[Manes&Tails]

What does having a horse willingly reach for and stay on the contact and forcing it's head dow have anything to do with each other? And if you think forcing it's head down is getting it to round up through the back onto its haunches and reach up under itself then you are seriously deluded!!!!

Let your horse keep rooting out with his nose and see if he is not hollowed backed and taking control.

[sublimequine]

I wonder how they got to that point. And the reins that are tied do have a give to them.

DEFINITELY by tieing the horse's head down to the saddle. EUREKA! That's how all those Olympic Dressage horses did it! Just throw them on the lunge with their heads tied, and VOILA! :lol::lol::lol:

I'm sorry, but this is just getting silly. Believe what you want, just stay away from me and mine! :lol:

[Manes&Tails]

Yeah, and I bet ya anything if you took it all off, the horses wouldn't be a bucking rearing kicking exploding crazy mess. Like I said, the tiedowns are not what controls the horse. Proper training does.

Tie downs used on Calf roping horse, etc use the tie down to balance themselves on while working. In other words it is a helpful tool for some horses while working at a fast speed to keep balanced.

[Showjumper28]

Let your horse keep rooting out with his nose and see if he is not hollowed backed and taking control.

I don't ever have this problem with any of my horses. And if they really believe that FORCING a horse to do anything makes it willing then yes they are wrong. Just incase you didn't notice, force and willing are OPPOSITES!!! Hellllloooo..... The amount of damage you do to these horses with this stuff is unbelievable. You work your horse up into the contact,by going foward. Not by tying down with is the opposite, all you are doing is setting the head. Nothing more...

[Showjumper28]

DEFINITELY by tieing the horse's head down to the saddle. EUREKA! That's how all those Olympic Dressage horses did it! Just throw them on the lunge with their heads tied, and VOILA! :lol::lol::lol:

I'm sorry, but this is just getting silly. Believe what you want, just stay away from me and mine! :lol:

I totally agree!!! What can I say ignorance is bliss! Not to mention, this is totally off the topic now. I am now going to ignore this thread in order to keep my sanity. Good luck with the abuse and send me a ticket when you make it to the Olympics...

[Manes&Tails]

I don't ever have this problem with any of my horses. And if they really believe that FORCING a horse to do anything makes it willing then yes they are wrong. Just incase you didn't notice, force and willing are OPPOSITES!!! Hellllloooo..... The amount of damage you do to these horses with this stuff is unbelievable. You work your horse up into the contact,by going foward. Not by tying down with is the opposite, all you are doing is setting the head. Nothing more...

It will make them heavy on the front, but you don't ride or work the horse like that 100 percent of the time. I can work my horse on the bit, drive her forward and underneath herself at the same time, so she does not get heavy on the front I work her front from the back. But first I want her on the bit.

[Woodland]

DEFINITELY by tieing the horse's head down to the saddle. EUREKA! That's how all those Olympic Dressage horses did it! Just throw them on the lunge with their heads tied, and VOILA! :lol::lol::lol:

I'm sorry, but this is just getting silly. Believe what you want, just stay away from me and mine! :lol:


Anky & Rollkur

[Simkie]

Wow, lots of upset over tying a horses head down.

I work with a young horse that need definite "this is time to work" vs "this is time to screw around." She doesn't see time on longe line in a halter or a bridle as "time to work."

If you tack her up and stick her in a loose set of side reins on the longe, she sees it as "time to work" and behaves appropriately. Fifteen-twenty minutes is enough to take whatever edge she has off, and is really work enough even if she's not ridden. The same amount of time not tacked, and she's still screwing around, acting like an idiot in the cold weather. She's just a young horse and needs some black and white work guidelines. I can't believe that she's the only one?

[Showjumper28]

Wow, lots of upset over tying a horses head down.

I work with a young horse that need definite "this is time to work" vs "this is time to screw around." She doesn't see time on longe line in a halter or a bridle as "time to work."

If you tack her up and stick her in a loose set of side reins on the longe, she sees it as "time to work" and behaves appropriately. Fifteen-twenty minutes is enough to take whatever edge she has off, and is really work enough even if she's not ridden. The same amount of time not tacked, and she's still screwing around, acting like an idiot in the cold weather. She's just a young horse and needs some black and white work guidelines. I can't believe that she's the only one?

Loosely was the word you used, not tying the horse head "around to the saddle" as the put it. A slight difference...

I was supposed to be ignoring this thread... Will some one please tie me to a tree to teach me some self discipline???

[Dressage4Fun]

ShowJumper28,,, you and I need to tie each other to a tree so we can not read this thread!! I KEEP PROMISING NOT TO COME BACK TO IT!!

[Showjumper28]

ShowJumper28,,, you and I need to tie each other to a tree so we can not read this thread!! I KEEP PROMISING NOT TO COME BACK TO IT!!

:lol::lol::lol: It's like a train wreck... I do't want to watch but I can not look away... LOL

[Sithly]

:lol::lol::lol: It's like a train wreck... I do't want to watch but I can not look away... LOL

It does have that effect, doesn't it? Fortunately, I think I've spent enough time at the patience tree to know that I should refrain from replying to these types. Especially when they've already proven themselves so thoroughly in the past. :rolleyes:

*sitting on hands, though*

[goeslikestink]

You need to get hold of the horses face, tie his head down with reins to the side of the saddle. I also run my reins between the front legs and tie them on top of the saddle, and this is on a horse that has been worked many times and wont flip over backwards.

I only have to round pen her about 15 min, then all done and ready for a nice ride.

You have to find away to get hold of the horses face. Calms them down every time.


original poster dont ever ever do this
ever

[goeslikestink]

I would like to hear about anyone who has found that lunging/roundpenning/groundwork for and extended period of time wasn't enough to take all the freshness out of a young and energetic green horse.

I usually expect that after forty five or fifty minutes of lunging, free-lunging, roundpenning and groundwork a horse will be completely calm. (unless its an arabian :)). This is my heretofore foolproof "calming supplement" on windy days, or before a trail ride where we will be cantering, before a lesson, etc.

To make a long story short, I have recently seen my young horse get exited while cantering (kicking out, mini-bucks, etc...not a true explosion or anything) even after all of the above. I would have never expected this. Is this common? I'm amazed that a horse's nerves/excitement could defy nearly an hour of hard physical/mental exercise.


grey mare dot chase a young hhorse not saying you are but to much owrk on the circles
on undeveloped legs can be harmful

just long rein so horse can learn to be balance and learn basic commands always go large and work on a square get the horse going striaght and balanced
45mins is to long to work a horse in a round pen especially a young horse
better to have 10 to 15 mins on a long rein which is far more benifical as then those lesson can transpire to be ridden ones of the same balance and strightness and forward going gicing clear signals and direction and would hold the horse in good steed for later displining and chosen carreer move for the horse in question

[J Swan]

I'd never work a horse like that for that length of time; particularly a young horse.

Ride it out. Forward, straight and calm. Horse gets fussy, you mix it up and keep it interesting the horse's attention on YOU. Lots of changes of direction, in wide, sweeping circles. Don't ask too much of a young horse, especially if his attention span is short.

Yes, a horse can retain enormous amounts of energy even after being lunged to death.




I would like to hear about anyone who has found that lunging/roundpenning/groundwork for and extended period of time wasn't enough to take all the freshness out of a young and energetic green horse.

I usually expect that after forty five or fifty minutes of lunging, free-lunging, roundpenning and groundwork a horse will be completely calm. (unless its an arabian :)). This is my heretofore foolproof "calming supplement" on windy days, or before a trail ride where we will be cantering, before a lesson, etc.

To make a long story short, I have recently seen my young horse get exited while cantering (kicking out, mini-bucks, etc...not a true explosion or anything) even after all of the above. I would have never expected this. Is this common? I'm amazed that a horse's nerves/excitement could defy nearly an hour of hard physical/mental exercise.

[J Swan]

I can ride my mare on a loose rein at any gait most of the time, when she is feeling fisky I pull her head around and release and keep doing this until she quits.


What you're really saying is that you can't ride so you have to continually yank your horse's head around in an attempt to "control" it.

Wow. Did you learn that with just one video or did you have to buy the whole set?

[mbamissaz]

It sounds like by lunging for an hour before each ride that you are actually increasing your horse's fitness level, which is why you're still seeing energy after all of that work. Like some of the other posters stated, I would reevaluate your horse's diet and turnout time instead of increasing your lunging time..as you may just be working against yourself.
Good luck!

[cosmos mom]

Gt in his face and tie him up...if that dosen't work, you could beat him between the ears with a baseball bat... of course there is always the time tested method of sending the youngster to a trainer that can ride these issues out by sending the horse forward, calmly without frying their baby brain with hours of round penning, lunging and gallons of herbal calmers. I'm not trying to pick on the OP (I am most definitely jabbing at the suggestions of Hoot&tick, though! :) ) but there's a reason that people use professionals to start green beans...they are GOOD at it ;). Maybe it's just me, but I've never worked with a baby that dosen't through the occasional buck, scoot or airs above ground in the process of training. Does any amount of turnout or longing really solve this? Personally, I 've only seen good consistent training solve it! ;)

[AnotherRound]

I have never, ever read such stubborn ignorant stupidity. OP, I am sure you are concerned, and please realise that your answers lie in good groundwork and handling, but don't ever, ever follow the advice of Hoot&Tick. Fewer ignorant people populate the horse world. There are some, but not many.

[J Swan]

I have never, ever read such stubborn ignorant stupidity. OP, I am sure you are concerned, and please realise that your answers lie in good groundwork and handling, but don't ever, ever follow the advice of Hoot&Tick. Fewer ignorant people populate the horse world. There are some, but not many.

Thank you - I too was appalled. I weep for horses treated to such horrendous "training". There are a lot of ruined, beaten horses out there - and this is the type of crap that makes them that way.
:mad:

[gallupgirl]

Just because a horse's head is tied doesn't automatically make them "under control". I've seen a whole lot of horses completely out of control with tiedowns on of some sort. Just look at this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DnGwMS3RRMA

That horse's head is tied. It didn't do ANYTHING to control the horse, at all.

.

I think that horse is bucking because the back cinch was not attached to the front one causing it to flank the horse.

[gloriginger]

I haven't read all the answers, just the post.

I don't ever use lunging to take the energy out of the horse...only to train obedience to the gait asked for and particularly for the transitions within the gaits.

It sounds to me like lunging is being used for the wrong reasons and executed incorrectly.

WOW! This thread is out of control! I think H&T is the perfect example of why the NH craze and watching videos and RFTV can be way more damaging than good! H&T is spoken like a true disciple of the NH techniques with the same holier than though attitude - Hey I watched videos, therefore I am a horse trainer! I worked with a very well known NH trainer for years, and can assure you that what H&T is describing is so far from what the method is intended for, and does not have anything to do with what the OP is asking about....oy! this makes me sad. I think this thread should be forewarded to John Lyons and Clinton Anderson....

OP-The above post is the best advice on this thread. Use your lunging as a time to get your horse listening to you - excercising the brain! Ask for nice slow, ridable gaits, and transitions that show that your horse is intune with your aids, so that when you get on him he is ready to work, but still has the enrgy needed to perform the job.

[gallupgirl]

This is an approximate of what I think would help - great for attitude adjusting.


http://www.horseproblems.com.au/Photo's/Mouthing/running%20reins.JPG


http://www.horseproblems.com.au/Photo's/Mouthing/RunninReinsLow.jpg



Can easily be done using a saddle in place of a surcingle.

That is exactly what Hoot & Tick is advocating, only with a saddle. And to those who are poo-pooing it........have you ever tried it? Easy to comment on things from an easy chair.

[MistyBlue]

Many people commenting on here are experienced trainers. Ulike other BB's...this one is populated heavily by people doing things (as professionals) rather than heavy on the arm-chair trainers.
Of course there are those who chat about it and watch videos and search online rather than actually ride...but quite a few are well known/very experienced trainers. :winkgrin:

[J Swan]

That is exactly what Hoot & Tick is advocating, only with a saddle. And to those who are poo-pooing it........have you ever tried it? Easy to comment on things from an easy chair.


No - And I don't want to. I can actually RIDE - I'm not so afraid of my horses that I have to yank their heads to their ass if they trot. If you like, I'll get out of my easy chair and post a video of myself on a horse - bringing him from a gallop to a walk with nothing more than a half halt. Even better - why not watch the endless videos of the worlds best horsemen riding, training and competing? See any of them at the Head of the Lake yanking their horses head around to get him to slow down?

The stuff Hoot and Tick is spouting off about is NOT good training advice, nor is it even what the NH folks like John Lyons teach. Certain techniques should not be attempted except by very experienced horsemen. It is simply not possible to learn how to train a horse from videos.

Heck - I could have started my young horse by myself - but had the good sense to know that 1) I needed to be careful with my back and 2) I was concerned I had gotten a bit lazy in equitation and would do the horse a disservice. So - I sent him to a friend - a professional - to be started.

You have to know your limits. I guess I could have bought some videos - but videos don't teach common sense. Videos are sold to make money.

I've seen people like her in action - and I want to vomit. It is not good training advice.

[sid]

In fact, what H&T is recommending actually runs counter to what the founders of what is now coined "NH" (hate that term) advocated. The early NH'rs became so because they were seeking more humane ways to "make" a horse, instead of physically "breaking" its spirit, and often its body in the process. They were sick of seeing the damage caused by starting horses with these kinds of methods.

Western trainer Richard Shrake for instance DID tie a horse's reins to the saddle at an appropriate point in lunging training...but LOOSELY to the STIRRUPS, which can move freely and allow the horse to find his balance and comfort level. A softer version of side reins, if you will, which could be very useful for the claustraphobic horse.

Just shows a little "knowledge", coupled with impatience for the time and details it takes to train a horse (and the desire for quick results), can be dangerous for people who do not reason things out.

Sure, sometimes extreme measures are still used for the horse that has become SO dangerous it may be a lost cause (at the hands of thoughtless or inexperienced trainers that made them that way in the first place). But those methods are last resorts these days, not the first choice in bringing a horse along (and btw, should only be attempted by the vastly experienced).

Oy. I really hope those who are neophytes to training and read H&T's posts have more sense than to take that advice.

[creseida]

My first horse was a victim of the Hoot-n-Tick school of training. It took me FOUR YEARS to regain her trust to the point she would not completely FREAK OUT when put on a longe line or see me with a longe whip.

Hoot, step away from the Expert Village Idiot videos, step away from the dime store How to Train Your Horse in a Day books and go get yourself some real instruction from a real trainer. Your horse (and everyone who has to read your stupidity online) will greatly appreciate it.

[J Swan]

Many people commenting on here are experienced trainers. Ulike other BB's...this one is populated heavily by people doing things (as professionals) rather than heavy on the arm-chair trainers.
Of course there are those who chat about it and watch videos and search online rather than actually ride...but quite a few are well known/very experienced trainers. :winkgrin:

Please tell me you're not including me in that remark! I developed a coop phobia from foxhunting. Can you believe that? Any coop over 2'9" and I mess my shorts. Yeah - some "expert" I am. :( I had to make a makeshift course of gymnastics (redneck style) to work on my balance and rhythm. Confidence is coming back - now I just pucker. :winkgrin:

It's amazing what a few crashes will do to a person's confidence..... especially as we get older.

[findeight]

What happened to OP? Back under the bridge? 'Tis the season after all, lots of free time for some.

Anyway, lighten up on H&T. Substituting a saddle for a surcingle is pretty common. Lacking a proper round pen I NEVER lunge without some type of siderein set up. Think I know what she meant and it's kind of hard to visualize what somebody is talking about off a post. Don't lunge for close to an hour either. Don't get sidetracked from kind of an out there statement about "gee, I lunge for an hour and it's still not tired" from somebody with 3 posts.

Classic train wreck set up.

[J Swan]

I think folks are frustrated with H&T's posts as a whole. Guess we could just put her on "ignore". But since that kind of defeats the purpose of a bulletin board.....

[Cherry]

Oh dear!!!! I hope my post won't get lost in this great abyss, but here goes.....

Yeah, yeah--you can tie a horse's head to its tail til the cows come home but I think all you get is a horse with sore neck muscles.... Yeah, you can run them reins between the legs too and end up with a horse that no longer bends at the poll, but further on down the neck (which is improper by the way). I'm an old fart! I'm not going to say that I've never resorted to that kind of training but that was then (because I'm so old) and this is now!!!! Over the years I've had a chance to think about what I'm doing, see how others are training their horses and made significant changes in the way I do things.... I also bought a Thoroughbred mare who won't allow herself to be mistreated.... ;) :lol: :winkgrin: Now, to me, it's all about the horse's comfort. I've learned you don't have to tie a horse up and sack it out to get it used to things! I've learned that you don't have to tie a horse's head to its tail to get the job accomplished! Heck, I don't even lunge a horse anymore (on a lunge line) but I have been known to free lunge a horse sometimes, but never as a prelude to riding it. I don't want a riding horse that I have to lunge first!!!!! I want to be able to saddle up a horse, take it out and have a nice ride!!!!! And I have had that.... :yes: :winkgrin: A Thoroughbred, no less!!!!! :lol: :)

I try to feed the horse right so there's no excess energy! I turn out as much as possible so there's no excess energy!!!!

Look at the horse's diet and try to arrange it so the calories are down more and I think that will be a lot of your answer as well as turning out as much as possible.... It can be that simple. Plus, whomever said that the horse is too fit was probably right. John Lyons says the horse should be calmer after being handled.... If it isn't I'd have to take a good look at the handler and his/her methods....

Good luck!!!! :yes:

[goeslikestink]

No - And I don't want to. I can actually RIDE - I'm not so afraid of my horses that I have to yank their heads to their ass if they trot. If you like, I'll get out of my easy chair and post a video of myself on a horse - bringing him from a gallop to a walk with nothing more than a half halt. Even better - why not watch the endless videos of the worlds best horsemen riding, training and competing? See any of them at the Head of the Lake yanking their horses head around to get him to slow down?

The stuff Hoot and Tick is spouting off about is NOT good training advice, nor is it even what the NH folks like John Lyons teach. Certain techniques should not be attempted except by very experienced horsemen. It is simply not possible to learn how to train a horse from videos.

Heck - I could have started my young horse by myself - but had the good sense to know that 1) I needed to be careful with my back and 2) I was concerned I had gotten a bit lazy in equitation and would do the horse a disservice. So - I sent him to a friend - a professional - to be started.

You have to know your limits. I guess I could have bought some videos - but videos don't teach common sense. Videos are sold to make money.

I've seen people like her in action - and I want to vomit. It is not good training advice.

agree with swany

[WW_Queen]

I'm going to ignore the posts and rebuttals about tying horses heads and whatnot...there are degrees of training which leads to abuse and misuse by professionals and amateurs alike.

Now, if I owned a horse that needed an hour of groundwork before riding, I would start from the bottom up. I would ask myself the following.....

1. Is he getting too much grain?
2. Is he getting a full days (8am - 5pm) turnout in a roomy paddock? If not, should he be? Is that even an option for this particular horse?
3. Does he have any prior training (ie, OTTB) that would prevent him from longing correctly?
4. How old is he? What is his breeding? (These will affect training decisions)
5. Is there a health problem I should know about/consider?

Let's say he's getting plenty of turnout, limited grain for his age/amount of work (enough to keep him health but not overkill on the carbs), has good basics and is your average, healthy young sporthorse.

To me personally, I would expect a healthy young thing to be frisky on the lunge. As long as you've ruled out pain, kicking out due to being fresh is not uncommon. There is a difference between galloping madly in circles, screaming, bucking and generally in a chaotic state of mind than a young, fresh horse who can't focus on you and is cantering distractedly around you, checking out everything and anybody in site, throwing a few bucks here and there because the activity you have engaged him in is not on his "to do" list at that time.

If you are lunging him for an hour, that is only fitting him up more and more. If he is of the "explosive" type and you haven't ridden in a few days, your better bet is to give him 5-10 minutes of arena turnout so he can blow himself out (within reason, of course). I know there is the thought that arena time should ALWAYS mean work time, but in poor weather you will only have a turnout option of arena time so there is no point in sweating about it.

Then bring him back in, tack up (which should mean "now it's time to do business" not more silly time) and do more lunging. If you have a roundpen or "space" that is quiet with no distractions, then all the better. This is where he should be walking in a controlled manner, listening to your cues (ie, "whoa" every 10 strides, he stops, then you praise and immediately walk on) as you lead him into the arena. Are you doing that groundwork? Asking him to whoa while being lead, backup, standing without pawing, fussing, chewing on his leadrope, etc (not sure how old this guy is but good manners are a good lesson at any age).

Is he "getting" basic commands like walk/trot/whoa? If not, there is no point in letting him canter around aimlessly for an hour. If he gets the commands and obeys within 2-4 strides 60-70% of the time then you are on the right track. When he is cantering, do you have him in loose sidereins or is he careening around with his head in the air, staring at everything? If so, this is a good time in his training (at a walk/trot) to introduce trot poles and cavalletti. Their world expands pretty big pretty fast when they realize the action is happening right in front of them, not necessarily outside or what his pasture buddy is doing. Using the poles and other NON-JUMPING obstacles like cavelletti will help him focus on the task at hand, especially once he falls over/trips/steps on them a few times and has to start actively figuring out what the heck is in front of him and where his feet have to go.

Again, as long as he is not in the "freaking out" state of mind, it seems like you have an average young horse that just needs a little more schooling and a little less time on the lunge. I always liked taking my three year old on little hacks (just around the arena, 50 feet away from the barn, etc) in his "comfort zone" before schooling versus lunging. If I did lunge because he needed it, if it got out of hand (too much energy/bucking/etc) then I would decide whether it was a good schooling day or simply doing some long-lining or hacking.


Good luck!

[goeslikestink]

Works like a charm, no different from driving one or using a sursingle except you use the saddle.

I know several top trainers that do this.

My mare can be in heat and bucking bronco and roundpen her with the reins tied to the saddle where she can't do whatever she wants she gives it up.

Many riders tie their horses heads around and down to teach the horse to give the bit and learn to flex.

I know one trainer that would tied his horses head around and let him stand in the stall for awhile everytime he tried to buck while being ridden.


mate true proffesioanl top trainers dont do it they prefer to work the horse from butt to poll
and not tied t down == what that does is put a heap of dead stops in and advasion not the best way of training a horse its surpose to be free and forwards

[goeslikestink]

What happened to OP? Back under the bridge? 'Tis the season after all, lots of free time for some.

Anyway, lighten up on H&T. Substituting a saddle for a surcingle is pretty common. Lacking a proper round pen I NEVER lunge without some type of siderein set up. Think I know what she meant and it's kind of hard to visualize what somebody is talking about off a post. Don't lunge for close to an hour either. Don't get sidetracked from kind of an out there statement about "gee, I lunge for an hour and it's still not tired" from somebody with 3 posts.

Classic train wreck set up.

thats not the way it wasy explained we all know we can lune long line with a saddle
but as theres always a but YOU DO NOT TIED IT HEAD DOWN THATS THE DIFFERENCE

[goeslikestink]

There is nothing I do with my horses on the ground that riders/trainers don't use in the saddle. I take it slowly first. Any horse has to be broke in face to be able to any type of riding safely.

No different then lungeing a horse with the bit, etc.

If you don't loosen up the back end and get hold of the face he most likely will not be safe to ride.

do me a favour your methods arnt correct - slightly off beat

and you also lunge incorrectly have seen all your videos - you tend to flip and falp the lunge line on your horse you also tend to lunge from the same side the bit is -- both are no no.s

i am an english trianer and been breaking horses and schooling since before you was born

[goeslikestink]

I think folks are frustrated with H&T's posts as a whole. Guess we could just put her on "ignore". But since that kind of defeats the purpose of a bulletin board.....


pray tell me if we dont point out the mistakes then how is it that hoot &tick learns

be it english or western buts its english
so i know its not correct

[LisaB]

Don't lunge. It's not working and you're getting your horse fit AND more disobedient. Couple that with the strain on the tendons of going around and around. Shame on your instructor for letting you do this!
So, back to spaz horse. Yep, once he even BEGINS to get the adrenalin up, STOP. Do yoga breathing exercises until you feel him relax. Then continue on. You're doing no service to the horse by trying to wear him out. You not gonna EVER get there! It's a form of evasion and disobedience. He has an hour out of 24 to be obedient. He can handle it.
Now, he may not be in the right environment as well. Turn out, turn out, turn out. High fiber, no sugars, low carb diet. If you can't do this, then he's not the horse for you.
Now about the tying down business. It's done, believe me, it's done. Now it may not be for your horse. But I've put in a german martingale on my horse with a surcingle and let him sort himself out, then go lunge him. But remember, he's an odd cookie. He has to figure things out for himself. You can teach him, but never demand him or overpower him. He's got a huge 'thing' with people being over him. It took months for him to acquiesce to poll pressure and put his head lower than me. The martingale helped with that. It also helped him get over his cart habit (stick head up and push off from the shoulder). You see, some horses don't readily accept pressure or have had a hard life prior and have issues (like mine). So, letting them sort out the pressure situation themselves is the best measure so you're no involved in the fight. Of course if the horse is going fall over backwards or be a moron, then this tactic won't work. I just did this after owning my horse for 4 years because I was sure he wouldn't freak. But it's been highly effective.

[katarine]

reposting since you all got sucked into H&T vortex.

-make sure said horse has ample turnout time and the right diet.

-teach horse to give laterally. Like REALLY give. (maybe that's what H&T said, however ungracefully...) I will offer the horse a generous, soft, leading rein, and patiently require they consider it, and give to it, laterally- I AM NOT saying jerk his head around, EVER...but I will lead his nose to my knee, and wait there, until the feet stop and the neck and poll soften. Instantly I release that pressure, and take his face to my other knee if I think he's still itching to hit the gas pedal)

case in point:
frightened, overstimulated, flunked out Big Lick horse, young, fit TWH. rode him in a plain, slow twist snaffle (he'd lean on a smooth). taught him that if my body went neutral, and I asked his nose to my knee, that he'd stay there UNTIL he relaxed, stood still, and gave me his nose. Then we'd go to the other knee and repeat til done. In time he learned to relax, stand still, and flex in both directions softly, happily. we made this a normal, at home routine.

FF to a little horse show. rode him into the arena and it was horrible- he was a barely controlled, scared, hopped up demon horse. Terrified. Afraid I'd ear him down or worse- truly- he was literally racing around with his left ear pinned down and his right in OMG mode- not pretty. People avoided us in the warm up sort of not pretty> So, I sat soft, laughed softly at him, and asked him to bend and give. the first 10 or even 20 were a bit of a mexican standoff, but in about 10-15 minutes he was PUTTY. Walking, slowly and calmly, on a slack rein. plain old walking. It put tears in my eyes to help him find that happy place. We went on to have a very successful little show, in just a plain little snaffle, against some amped up walkers in big bits. I was really happy for him.

Teach him - the horse- there's a place thats calm and quiet, then show him how to go there.

[findeight]

Ok, didn't read all of this because it smells like a troll to me and deliberate attempt to start a fight...and looks like it hooked alot of action. Despite a large number of posts, I don't read and respond to everything or go on and argue with everything I disagree with.

I don't tie down or around either. Doesn't work anyway and they just learn to lean.

But that has almost nothing to do with the original out there post.

[J Swan]

pray tell me if we dont point out the mistakes then how is it that hoot &tick learns

be it english or western buts its english
so i know its not correct

One has to be open to learning. I think a lot of folks are very set in their ways; particularly those who have invested a great deal of money, or placed complete faith, in TV trainers.

Call me a dressage queen, but the basics are pretty consistent throughout the disciplines. The basics. One basic premise is that riding/working a horse front to back is a bad thing. Another basic premise is that you cannot get a horse to free up its back by grabbing a hold of its head. Call it what you want - a popular phrase is crank and spank.

Very very basic. Whether one rides western or english style. A horse that is light, supple, obedient to the aids - that is the goal of most horse owners. A nice, pleasant, healthy sound horse. Most of us aren't headed for the Olympics.

The method she espouses does not produce that. It produces a very unhappy, tense, sore horse; often terrified of work, and not at all in keeping with anything the NH founders wanted. Or Xenophon, for that matter. This stuff isn't new.

[flshgordon]

You need to get hold of the horses face, tie his head down with reins to the side of the saddle. I also run my reins between the front legs and tie them on top of the saddle, and this is on a horse that has been worked many times and wont flip over backwards.

I only have to round pen her about 15 min, then all done and ready for a nice ride.

You have to find away to get hold of the horses face. Calms them down every time.


WTF??????:confused: :confused: :confused:

I don't know how it's possible that everytime you post something it knocks me out of my chair.:no:


To the OP.....just stop lunging the horse so much. You are fitting him up and he's getting more and more stamina with each workout. You are not going to tire him out like that.

Lunging should be about putting the horse in a "working" mindset, listening to the person's commands, etc. It's not about blowing off steam for almost an hour.

[Fluffie]

Hang on a second there everyone.

Now I could certainly be wrong, but I THINK what H&T is advocating, although not exactly explained well, is what most QH trainers do--rather than using side reins and a longe line, they run the loooong split reins through the various rings/stirrups/pommel hole thing and then either free longe or turn loose (in an enclosed area) the horse to get the willies out of him. If done *properly*, it isn't any different than what most English riders do with a line and surcingle. This training method of giving the face first, then driving the hind end up and under the horse is the opposite order of what most of us do, but IF done WELL produces some wel-trained, athletic animals for AQHA stuff.

Having said all that, for whatever reason these methods do NOT work well on TB's--mine was trained originally in this manner (why is a long story--I didn't own him at the time), and "getting his face" did ZERO, absolutely ZERO other than developing a habit of being able to perform the most amazing airs above ground with a face perpendicular to the ground at all times. :lol:

OP: What I found to work better than all the longing et al was to find under saddle exercises that let horsie blow off some steam productively. One that I really like for greenies on the muscle (what can I say--stole it from GM himself) is a big figure-eight. Greenie can focus on trying to be big strided and forward while the circles help contain his enthusiasm and the changes of bend focus him and keep his attention. :)

[goeslikestink]

wanna know what i would do
i hvent got a lunge pen or school all my work with horses is done in an open field but there you go
but i would get on the ned and out the gate i go-- up and out get him thinking and focused

the more time a horse has for thiinking the more gittish they become why
because in most they fed to much and not much work and the enegery got to go some where -- hence the op problem give me the horse and i will turn him around before he back in the yard and the horse would be happy

[juststartingout]

OMG, seriously???

If anyone is having to roundpen/lunge a horse for 45 minutes just to be able to ride, one needs to re-evaluate the situation. Either the horse is inherently too hot for you to handle (ie "professional's" horse vs "amateur's" horse), or the turnout situation isn't working, or the diet is wrong, or there is a lack of basic training.

Agreed - all that luunging is just going to make the horse more and more fit - as well as being tough on the legs and body. Sounds like more turnout or something else to me

[goeslikestink]

One has to be open to learning. I think a lot of folks are very set in their ways; particularly those who have invested a great deal of money, or placed complete faith, in TV trainers.

Call me a dressage queen, but the basics are pretty consistent throughout the disciplines. The basics. One basic premise is that riding/working a horse front to back is a bad thing. Another basic premise is that you cannot get a horse to free up its back by grabbing a hold of its head. Call it what you want - a popular phrase is crank and spank.

Very very basic. Whether one rides western or english style. A horse that is light, supple, obedient to the aids - that is the goal of most horse owners. A nice, pleasant, healthy sound horse. Most of us aren't headed for the Olympics.

The method she espouses does not produce that. It produces a very unhappy, tense, sore horse; often terrified of work, and not at all in keeping with anything the NH founders wanted. Or Xenophon, for that matter. This stuff isn't new.


there see me matey swan has said it out load for you to learn the difference h& t
as she knows iam rubbish with long posts haha thank you swany xx

[Woodland]

A failure to comprehendThe simple techniques as outlined on this thread. Coupled with blantent bashing and "monkey Pile" disrespect - SHAMEFUL!



I often wonder if those responding own just one horse and take lessons on occassion from the same trainer, and have an oh so narrow view of anything differing from their own little DQ/HP world. I seriously doubt they do their own training beyond their already pre trained horse(s)


Talk about your arm chair horse trainers!

OP, H & T offered a valid option for focusing your horse - perhaps it should have been explained with more depth for the simpletons that poo-poo'd it.

There are some incredibly RUDE people on this board. It's a wonder anyone ever gives any advice :(

[flshgordon]

A failure to comprehendThe simple techniques as outlined on this thread. Coupled with blantent bashing and "monkey Pile" disrespect - SHAMEFUL!

I often wonder if those responding own just one horse and take lessons on occassion from the same trainer, and have an oh so narrow view of anything differing from their own little DQ/HP world. I seriously doubt they do their own training beyond their already pre trained horse(s)

Talk about your arm chair horse trainers!

OP, H & T offered a valid option for focusing your horse - perhaps it should have been explained with more depth for the simpletons that poo-poo'd it.

There are some incredibly RUDE people on this board. It's a wonder anyone ever gives any advice :(


OK I'll bite....and I'll COMPLETELY disagree with you!!!

I think it's way more important to completely discredit someone who says "tie the horse's head to it's side", "get his face broke" or something like that than it is to play nicey-nice. That is dangerous business and in the wrong hands without proper explanation (as was written here) can ruin a horse and possibly get the handler SERIOUSLY hurt!

Personally, I've got 3 horses, started my coming 5yo under saddle myself and compete regularly, so I'm pretty sure I know firsthand that the recommendation to tie your horse's head up is unnecessary and dangerous and in no way a "valid option" people should use for focusing your horse.

[Woodland]

OK I'll bite....and I'll COMPLETELY disagree with you!!!

I think it's way more important to completely discredit someone who says "tie the horse's head to it's side", "get his face broke" or something like that than it is to play nicey-nice. That is dangerous business and in the wrong hands without proper explanation (as was written here) can ruin a horse and possibly get the handler SERIOUSLY hurt!

Personally, I've got 3 horses, started my coming 5yo under saddle myself and compete regularly, so I'm pretty sure I know firsthand that the recommendation to tie your horse's head up is unnecessary and dangerous and in no way a "valid option" people should use for focusing your horse.

But that is NOT what she said at all.:no:

[katarine]

Woodland, you're crazy and getting crazier. Rude? maybe. True? Definitely.

If the OP were to be dumb enough to just 'do' what H&T suggested, and said hothouse flower flips and breaks his neck, I'm sure she'll be thrilled she dared go where no DQ/HP has (admitted) to going before, don't you?

If H&T lacks the finesse to explain it well, with caveats and warnings and such in place- then H&T should sit on her hands. If YOU can see what she meant, and I understand what she MIGHT have meant but don't trust H&T to find her way out of a bag based on her past posts...then bully for you- but to ASSume the OP gets it and won't kill the horse trying it WRONG- well I think that's dangerous.

I train horses. I take horses in, for money, and train them. I have ridden and trained horses for 20+ years. I 'fixed' the EXACT sort of horse the OP described, just this year, in the manner I offered, and it worked, it works. He is now a completely different animal, while still retaining his dignity, his safety, and his poll, thank you very much.

[Ghazzu]

Do you never tie your horses head to the side with the reins tied to the saddle?

Never.

[Eclectic Horseman]

I just double checked and there are no western forums on this board.

In my experience, western concepts, terminology and training methods do not mix very well with training in dressage, eventing or hunter/jumper. The two just don't seem to be able to communicate at all. Perhaps someone should suggest to COTH that they add a western riding forum.

I read the original post and then a few more until I got to the western training advice-- then I lost interest when the bickering started.

My advice to the OP, purely from an english sporthorse disciplines perspective, is that generally longeing a horse until he is no longer fresh just results in a fitter and fitter horse, and you will have to longe for a longer and longer time in order to tire him out. So this is counterproductive.

I try not to let very young green horses (3-4 year olds) get very fit. They have shorter attention spans anyway, and I find that it is best to keep them in a place where work is fun and they want the attention. So short sessions of no more than 20 mins combined of longeing and/or riding is best a few times per week. All young horses can be silly and sometimes willful, and they are not for every rider. If you find that you are overmounted, it may make sense to put the horse in training or to move on to an older more predictable horse.
Good luck.

[Equilibrium]

I took a break from posting here but wow, what a thread! First of all everyone does things diffrently. I wouldn't tie a young horses head anywhere. Just my way and it doesn't make me right.

1st, OP you are making your horse too fit, plain and simple. Your horse could possibly be too much for you as well.

2nd Unless, I'm doing some work on the lunge or driving to teach them a definite skill, I would never use lunging before getting on one in case they buck or are too fresh. Proper diet and turnout really is something everyone should look into if you can't get on your horse without lunging. I have a 3yo TB filly that's had a month off while we finished breaking babies. I can hop on her tomorrow and she wouldn't dream of bucking me off or going mental. She knows when it's time for work no matter what.

None of the above things makes me any kind of expert, they are just opinons. Near enough the only horses I get on are youngsters. I don't get mad at horses for being happy and feeling good. Some days are better than others. They don't go well every day. I don't get mad at them for not going good every day. They are all diffrent and learn at their own rates. I don't get bucked off and don't have problems with horses trying to buck me off or we wouldn't get horses to break. I don't tie heads down and haven't had the need to. As horses get older and their muscles and skeletal systems are working together we do a bit more serious work on head sets usually without quik fit gadgets. But not saying they don't have their place.


Diffrent disciplines have diffrent ways of getting from point a to b. I don't think it's my place to say someone is wrong. I just get from point a to b in my own way and try to keep the horses happy while doing so.

Terri

[flshgordon]

But that is NOT what she said at all.:no:

methinks you should invest in some reading comprehension lessons :no:

[flshgordon]

If H&T lacks the finesse to explain it well, with caveats and warnings and such in place- then H&T should sit on her hands. If YOU can see what she meant, and I understand what she MIGHT have meant but don't trust H&T to find her way out of a bag based on her past posts...then bully for you- but to ASSume the OP gets it and won't kill the horse trying it WRONG- well I think that's dangerous.


Precisely....no one should have to try and "guess" that she didn't mean exactly what it sounds like she meant

[Tamara in TN]

Never.

me neither,not ever not one time


Tamara in TN

[J Swan]

Actually, I do understand what she meant.

It's the same thinking that results in ruined, broken horses.

It doesn't matter if the riding style is English or Western. Most horsemen worth their salt have a decent working knowledge of the various disciplines and styles. None is better than the other.

The one thing all disciplines and styles have in common is the basics. Techniques, particularly those that can result in injury or harm to horse or rider - should be left to very experienced horsemen.

And this is where the problem lies. Some folks really believe it is possible to be an "expert" by watching videos. Just tie 'em down, hobble 'em, flip 'em over........and the ruined, broken horse is held up as "broke in the face".

The truth is - folks like that should never - never - be confused with an educated horseman. Doesn't matter if the person wears cowboy boots or Dehner's. A good horseman knows when they've reached the limit of their knowledge or skills and seeks help from a more seasoned horseman.

I would not put Hoot and Tick in that category. It's nothing personal - because I don't know this lady and couldn't pick her out of a lineup. There are a lot of folks like her out there - and they're the ones producing, dangerous, untrained, and often broken down and dispirited horses.

There is nothing good about that. I may not be the best horseman around - but I know horsesh** when I see it.

[Tamara in TN]

And this is where the problem lies. Some folks really believe it is possible to be an "expert" by watching videos. Just tie 'em down, hobble 'em, flip 'em over........and the ruined, broken horse is held up as "broke in the face".

.

the reality is that "broke in the face" is a reflection of the command the rider has over the seat aids...as the seat aids progess and improve and develop between the horse and the rider the face is used for what it was designed for which are the refining aids...the tiny tweaks of collection and balance and forward that good animals display...the seat comes before the face always....

Tamara in TN

[Tamara in TN]

I guess Clinton Anderson and John Lyons is wrong also?

Clinton Anderson SUCKS and JL did not advocate a bunch of neck around bending in the old days...:)

Tamara in TN

[J Swan]

the reality is that "broke in the face" is a reflection of the command the rider has over the seat aids...as the seat aids progess and improve and develop between the horse and the rider the face is used for what it was designed for which are the refining aids...the tiny tweaks of collection and balance and forward that good animals display...the seat comes before the face always....

Tamara in TN

Agreed. Unfortunately, that is not her interpretation. Unless, like someone else posted - that's not what she meant to say. I'm taking the comments as a whole. Not that it matters - the OP hasn't responded and most likely won't.


Tamara - you don't like Clinton????? But he's AUSSIE......... ! (swoon);)

[Tamara in TN]

Agreed. Unfortunately, that is not her interpretation. Unless, like someone else posted - that's not what she meant to say. I'm taking the comments as a whole. Not that it matters - the OP hasn't responded and most likely won't.

no I think you are right....the head around to one side til they stop is the height of stupidity...especially in a bitted horse...

it does actually have a basis in traditional bosal training as in a true bosal you cannot use both hands at the same time w/o the horse being able to plow through what you are asking him...

bringing a head to one side prevented a big strong 5 yo colt RIDING IN A BOSAL from runnning off across 2,000 acres of open range land for the house...

this is also why green colts did not see speed work or roping or such things until they were one year under saddle as they could "lose it" and just be off to the races....

they saw bred cow moving or fence work or branding work in ENCLOSED areas...all for these reasons...the cowboy had to know how much brake he had at all time...and not exceed it....

well the NH goof-fords got wind of this and began to apply it to bitted colts...IT IS NOT FOR BITTED ANIMALS not even in snaffles....a bridle of no sort works the way a bosal does....they are accomplishing nothing but fad following and shortcut taking...and it is disgusting...

Tamara in TN

[Tamara in TN]

Tamara - you don't like Clinton????? But he's AUSSIE......... ! (swoon);)

sexy butt and accent does not a cowboy make :) ...saw him live at Road to the Horse...saw thru him in about 8 minutes and spent the rest of the time with the Purina rep and the JD dealers at the show...now Van Hargis...by God now there's a cowboy !!

Tamara in TN

[LisaB]

I still have a question.
What about your instructor? Are they allowing this? Do you have an instructor?

[goeslikestink]

That is exactly what Hoot & Tick is advocating, only with a saddle. And to those who are poo-pooing it........have you ever tried it? Easy to comment on things from an easy chair.


mate you can do as wish for your horses but that not even going to balance him
as its in the wrong place
and again this is totally wrong for a young horse

[goeslikestink]

This is an approximate of what I think would help - great for attitude adjusting.


http://www.horseproblems.com.au/Photo's/Mouthing/running%20reins.JPG


http://www.horseproblems.com.au/Photo's/Mouthing/RunninReinsLow.jpg



Can easily be done using a saddle in place of a surcingle.


i mean these they not acceptable or correct

[J Swan]

sexy butt and accent does not a cowboy make :) ...saw him live at Road to the Horse...saw thru him in about 8 minutes and spent the rest of the time with the Purina rep and the JD dealers at the show...now Van Hargis...by God now there's a cowboy !!

Tamara in TN


Never met the guy - but I did see good old Clinton once. I'm just too old to play cowboys and indians.

You know - it's interesting that you mention the bosal. Been a very long time since I was in a Western saddle. I do shamefully admit to using a pulley rein - but not on a frisky horse.

The pulley rein is an emergency stop. And I mean - real emergency ohmygod this horse is an out of control bolting maniac and I'm going to die. But you know - at that point - you're not quite as concerned with the bit in the mouth as the prospect of being inserted head first into a tree trunk. It's not what I call "frisky". I could go the rest of my life without having to use that again. :eek:

[Tom King]

Let's start over.

Is the horse an Arab? This is not a prejudiced question but one of reality. Been there, done that.

[katarine]

Tamara et al- are you guys referring to my suggestions in this thread? Just curious about which witch we're burning here :lol: I stand behind and am happy with my suggestion, so I'm ok with it either way...as what I've said tI do is neither an emergency tool or a pulley rein, nor is it the fast hands of Clinton Anderson and pulling them around. Just wanting to understand if I've utterly failed to explain a tool that has really been a Godsend for this particular horse.

[goeslikestink]

A failure to comprehendThe simple techniques as outlined on this thread. Coupled with blantent bashing and "monkey Pile" disrespect - SHAMEFUL!



I often wonder if those responding own just one horse and take lessons on occassion from the same trainer, and have an oh so narrow view of anything differing from their own little DQ/HP world. I seriously doubt they do their own training beyond their already pre trained horse(s)


Talk about your arm chair horse trainers!

OP, H & T offered a valid option for focusing your horse - perhaps it should have been explained with more depth for the simpletons that poo-poo'd it.

There are some incredibly RUDE people on this board. It's a wonder anyone ever gives any advice :(


i am not rude blunt maybe but not rude people know me on her i just tend to say it how it is
whats the point in beating round the bushes
look ok no offence meant
if you a beaty round the bush type then you are going to be namby pamby with your horse type
this isnt what having ahorse is all about-

having a horse is doing things that do have basic guide lines and rules -- why

so you are safe-- human beings are not a match for any size horse

the only way to match them isnt in strenght but in there mind

putting things into there minds that its a good idea to xyz to get xyz

if hoot& tick carries on the way she thinks shes correct or seen then she to will get hurt eventually
thats why i said its better to point out mistakes so she can learn having it on the internet allows others to learn by her mistakes as what not to do

i hate to say it but there are in usa so many trianers that are rubbish or parelli types
becuase they sell stuff and say try this at home- only thing is your more likely to land in hospital and not at home and not many reach stage 3 of the videos as by then most realise
poop it isnt working and the horse is then a pita horse all becuase the try this at home

in uk we trianers are all normally qualified or have been there done it and warn the t shirt backwards

i have been breaking horses in since i was 12 and at 52 still break horses in and school younsters on iam a proven well expreince rough rider meaning people pay me to do ther job for them

others are either bhs AI or bhsII or bhs stage 3 which is when you are allowed to teach or are be accredited trainers or bsja accredited trainers or fei trianers over all disaplines

one way or another we a re listed on the main web sites for each
as proven trianers

some private owners trian there own as they have come up through the ranks in that dispaline or pony club or born into or have the compentence to do so etc


in english riding -- its better to lone line the horse when young
so he learns basic commands can get a nice out line and is striaght and balanced

when ridden you practice -- the same in trot you lengthen and shorten strides with half halts to halt or half halt paces-- to which i have described and previous wrriten how to perform one if those dont know
with added half strides bring the horse to a clloect pace telling him that another or change of pace is due - giving him clear signals something else is happening

if you ride from an independant seat light in the legs and soft in the hands then you horse isnt likely to bolt buck or rear- its down to how you educate your horse

i personally get new horses out on the roads on day 3 so they get used to the outside world
and they are not scared of traffic and the new rider owner can carry that one on with out any fear of the horse doing xyz-- they have an 1hrs road work which starts of at 2omins
building up to 1hr so the horse know this is part of his new job
and he musnt ever disobey must go forward and true focusing on the job in hand

how do i do that the same way i am in a school- i ride the horse with meaning
gving clear signals and direction- i work the horse outside the same as i do inside but in a more relaxed atmostphere you might think not but going down a quiet lane i practice schoulder in and leg yeilds
going through the wood i pratice leghtening ans shortening his strides with the half stride

i want the horse to work his buttand get his hinds underneath him to follow thorough to the poll and then to a relax yaw so the horse is nice and light in his mouth
and goes of at a tweak of my heal- if i send the horse forwards keeping my hands still
and hes say lazy or to sharp then i have to be sharper on my aids so i kick and click at same time keeping my hands still-- once hes gone of i bring back to walk praze him then ask again till he got it in his tiny brain he goes of on my heal-- then i can send the horse once again into full gallop -- bring back to walk
then start doing the working trot with half halts--
s this nice youngster can work both inside a school and out side
and i dont have anything in my yard other than an open field i work my horses in the open
with no fence line --
at no time do i jab - pull or mistreat the horse i ride from my arse my seat and its that that keeps me stuck to the saddle if you ask the horse politely he will do anything
if you work a horse correctly he will do anything hes only to please to

if you work him incorrectly or mistreat him then he has no opportunity than to say enough is enough and you take a walk

[tds]

This is the most amazing thread. I mean we all know people in all disciplines can screw up or do amazing things with almost any gadget humankind has dreamed up for a horse. It's the "monkey see monkey do" (hereinafter referred to as "MSMD") brand of "trainer/rider" that gives all gadgets a bad name. The MSMD-ers don't precisely know WHY they are using it and have even less of a clue about HOW to use said gadget, but by god they KNOW they should be using it.

My guess is H&T falls into that category, and I think almost everyone reading is trying to point that out. It's a bit like getting driving directions from a blind person. You will probably end up somewhere, just probably not where you planned on going.

But in the process of pointing out the obvious, it's like some of you left your common sense just to the left of the keyboard. Guess what? Really well respected trainers in all english disciplines have been known to use side reins to the girth of the saddle. No it's not exactly like the western practice of tying reins to the stirrups or other saddle parts, but really, it's just not that far off the mark. And that device gls commented on is just a poor man's version of Vienna reins or European balancing reins. Or a half assed version of the pessoa rig. And the surgical tubing device was common place in western disciplines 25 years ago, now it's been reinvented for dressage, only it costs a lot more. None of these devices are strangers to any top rider's barn in almost any discipline, it's just that not everyone has a clue how to use said items. A good many of us know when we can safely use them and when we are in over our heads, but there is a significant chunk of the MSMDers that slap that crap on and then feel free to toss out advice on the interweb tubes. When you spot them (and boy will you will learn to spot them), you should step away slowly and try to avoid making direct eye contact.

****

To the OP's long forgotten original post, I agree if you need to lunge a horse that long on a regular basis, you probably need to seek some help from a professional. Or many professionals. It's probably not just a matter of training, it maybe a combination of turnout, diet, training, your fear/anxiety level once you get on, or even just that you and your horse push each other's buttons. Either way, it sounds like outside assistance would be helpful.

[goeslikestink]

to lunge ther artt to lunge rein and i ahve siad how to do it on previous threads
you do not wave the lunge line about and you do not lunge on the same side ie clip him to the side you are lunging from cuase if the horse goes to pull then you will be hurting his mouth

but if i was op-- i would get on him and ride him and sit the tantrum to many people over feed then lunge the horse as he abit to much for them to handle

op take the food away for 2weeks iit takes a day to get into the system and 2 weeks to come out before you will see any changes of a zane horse-- then once you do lunge him for 10mins 5 each side and jump on him and ride him with meaning no namby pamby stuff a meanifiul ride
then if hes ok do it for another couple of weeks if hes a bit sluggish then slowly reintroduce the feeds
but if he gets to much cut back - its trial and error with each horse
then you should have a ned to work with ok

[AnotherRound]

Wow, what a thread but a good one. Rather satisfying in many ways.

Stinky, as a friend, I would pet your hair and soothe you to settle down, mare, easy, easy. There's a girl. Lets have a nice friendly walk around the farm, take a look at what's going on in the other fields. When your language skills deteriorate so that those of us who know and love you can't quite make out what you're saying, you're really spittin mad! :winkgrin:

[goeslikestink]

mad yeap i go along with that and excentric

[MassageLady]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoot&Tick View Post
You need to get hold of the horses face, tie his head down with reins to the side of the saddle. I also run my reins between the front legs and tie them on top of the saddle, and this is on a horse that has been worked many times and wont flip over backwards.
OMG, seriously???

If anyone is having to roundpen/lunge a horse for 45 minutes just to be able to ride, one needs to re-evaluate the situation. Either the horse is inherently too hot for you to handle (ie "professional's" horse vs "amateur's" horse), or the turnout situation isn't working, or the diet is wrong, or there is a lack of basic training.
Exactly...I cannot believe that first post for advice. Please don't do that. I have an arabian, and she had solid groundwork done, she was great under saddle-because she was given the time needed for the BASICS. Tying the head down, tying to one side, etc...is just plain cruel. If you don't know what else to do-you shouldn't be training. JMHO:winkgrin:

[LuvMyTB]

Wow!

OP--you have gotten a lot of good advice here in terms of significantly reducing lunge time, increasing turnout time if needed (at least 8 hrs is ideal), and taking a good hard look at what your horse is being fed. Additionally, he may be just too "hot" for you, or too green--and there is nothing wrong with admitting that! :yes:

Also--I have learned that, on occasion, no amount of lunging/groundwork can guarantee a focused, calm, engaged horse. There have been days where, after 45 mins of playing/groundwork, my horse is still high as a kite, and on those days I just don't ride! No big deal. Most likely, if I were to go ahead and ride when she was in that kind of a mood, the whole ride would be a battle and we'd BOTH be in a bad mood by the end.

In response to the head-tying thing: I personally do not tie my mare's head down or tie it to anything--I don't even use a martingale anymore. It doesn't teach her anything; in fact, it makes her worse.

I also use the one-rein bend--never a "pulley" rein unless it is a real emergency. My mare learned how to bend to my knee, give, and relax on the ground long before I ever tried it in the saddle. I give her warning before I ask--I do not just crank her head around. I DO use this to slow down/stop in both a hackamore and a fat sweet-iron snaffle. She is an OTTB who was never properly re-trained after leaving the track. Pulling on her to stop only encourages her to lean on my hands and plow through the stop.

In my former life, I used draw reins regularly, and always lunged with the reins looped under run-up stirrups (poor man's side reins LOL!). Since then, I have seen side reins/draw reins/surcingles/tie downs/whatever used incorrectly by inexperienced/ignorant people and have seen the damaging effect they had on the horses. I personally believe that they are a bandaid, not a solution, but that's JMHO.

[Tuff Tilly]

I'm not sure it's even worth posting on this thread anymore, as the OP is not going to respond (and honestly I might not either if I were the OP) and in all likelyhood has been scared away for good...however, I'm bored it's snowing and I'm trying to decide if I really want to go ride in it. So I'm wasting time here. ;)

I don't know that turnout will reduce longe time all that much, if you're looking to use your longing as a way to get the fresh off.

My mare is on 24-7 turnout, she's kept in a large paddock ith one other horse on a hill and several other horses adjoining paddocks.

There are days when I could longe or roundpen her for an hour straight and she'd still be fresh as a daisy. It doesn't stop me from riding her so long as I've had her attention. I've found, with my limited experience compared to some here, that despite being fresh she's still absolutely responsive and some of our best rides have been days when she was being an absolute crackhead on the longe. She may not appear sane to outside viewers (rearing, bolting, over-reacting to minimal cues) when I longe her, but it doesn't mean we'll have a terrible ride, or that she'll be dangerous to get on when it comes to the riding bit of our routine.

[caballus]

And perhaps if you teach the horse how to wear side reins or the reins tied to the saddle first before actually employing this method, it would be safer.
And, perhaps if one behaves in a manner befitting of a good leader, then one would not even HAVE to employ "this method". Horses respect their leaders. Horses listen to their leaders. Horses focus on their leaders and look to their leaders for directions; even for their very safety. Be a good leader and you'll not have to deal with situations like this.

[meredithbarlow]

Okay only read the first post- so here goes with my opinion (based only on the first post, and not knowing the horse- take it for what its worth)

While round penning, groundwork and lunging all have their place. They often do not help at all in getting a horse to focus and do his job. I find that long and eventful trail rides are helpful to do this- but should only be done by an experienced rider who can handle it if the horse is worse on the trails than in the ring for the first few rides. Ring work can get super boring for some horses and they just need extra (not less) stimuli.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying this works for all horses, or even most. Just some.

[atr]

Going back to the OP. Please, don't lunge for 45 mins to an hour. That's way, way, WAY, too hard on the legs. 20 minutes, tops.

Look at feed, look at turnout, and accept the fact that you might have a horse with a bit of 'tude. Which is really not always a bad thing as long as you can learn how to channel it...

[EqTrainer]

There are so many facets to this, I will try to cover as many as I can.

First, I would look at what this horse is eating and how much turnout it is getting. I would want it on a low sugar, low starch diet that covered its caloric needs mostly thru free choice forage. I would make sure all its mineral and vitamin needs were met. And I personally would turn it out 24.7 or as close to that as possible.

Then. I really try to avoid the concept of making a horse tired, or wearing them out. There are plenty of horses who, once they get their adreniline going, could/would run until they dropped. Horses need to be taught to control their urge to run and get wound up, not worn out. The first methodology is reliable, the second is not.

I would have a trainer teach me to do inhand work to focus this horse, rather than try to wear him out. Then I would work on learning to ride in a way that developed his attention span so that he became reliable. This is how you build a partnership with a horse.

[J Swan]

I don't have a problem with any experienced, educated rider using sidereins or any other tack. I don't know where you got that.

What Hoot was saying was that tying the horse up as a pretzel was her way of CALMING the horse.

No matter how you look at it - that's just plain wrong. I think we're all on the same page on that - but I wanted to remind folks of why that comment was made; not just that it was made. She also mentioned something about the horse flipping over, or not flipping over..... whatever.

I replied to the OP already, though I doubt she wanted to hear that lunging a horse to death really doesn't work well.



My guess is H&T falls into that category, and I think almost everyone reading is trying to point that out. It's a bit like getting driving directions from a blind person. You will probably end up somewhere, just probably not where you planned on going.

But in the process of pointing out the obvious, it's like some of you left your common sense just to the left of the keyboard. Guess what? Really well respected trainers in all english disciplines have been known to use side reins to the girth of the saddle. No it's not exactly like the western practice of tying reins to the stirrups or other saddle parts, but really, it's just not that far off the mark. And that device gls commented on is just a poor man's version of Vienna reins or European balancing reins. Or a half assed version of the pessoa rig. And the surgical tubing device was common place in western disciplines 25 years ago, now it's been reinvented for dressage, only it costs a lot more. None of these devices are strangers to any top rider's barn in almost any discipline, it's just that not everyone has a clue how to use said items. A good many of us know when we can safely use them and when we are in over our heads, but there is a significant chunk of the MSMDers that slap that crap on and then feel free to toss out advice on the interweb tubes. When you spot them (and boy will you will learn to spot them), you should step away slowly and try to avoid making direct eye contact.

[tds]

I don't know where you got that.

I know who was on my mind when I typed my post, but damned if I can even recall anything you wrote, so I'm guessing you weren't on the pointy end of the stick.

[grey_mare]

I appreciate the COTHers who took the time to reply with constructive input. There's definitely good food for thought here, which I am in the process of digesting.

[rosebud]

I must say this was an interesting thread to say the least. I too agree that if you have to lunge a horse for more than 15-20 minutes than something is wrong. Either there is not enough turn out time or the feed is to much or the wrong type for this horse. I have my horse on 24 hour turnout and he is a happy guy. I only lunge my guy because he is young and I use this mainly to teach him transitions. He only gets to "run" for a few minutes then it's down to work with walking on the line at the end to cool him out. I have to say and I am sorry it this offends anybody, but you should never tie a horses head down. This can cause an explosvie situation down the road. If using a martingale or side reins there should be enough slack for the horse to be able to move his head up, down and sideways. If you are using these to avoid any bucking issues, sorry but these won't help. You need to find the root of the problem, i.e. what is the cause of the bucking and then correct this. I have started my guy with the Parelli program and he is so much calmer, excepts new things better and I don't have to "make" him do things. Before Parelli I could never lunge in an open area, now I can get him to cirlcle me with just a rope halter and a 12 foot line. Again, it is not my intention to offend anyone, just want to warn of the dangers of some of the techiniques mentioned.

[BarbB]

Read post #134 by EqTrainer. Then re read it. Then read it again.
:yes:

[J Swan]

I know who was on my mind when I typed my post, but damned if I can even recall anything you wrote, so I'm guessing you weren't on the pointy end of the stick.

Oh good. How refreshing!:D

OP - Hope everything works out with your horse. Good luck.

[Manes&Tails]

sexy butt and accent does not a cowboy make :) ...saw him live at Road to the Horse...saw thru him in about 8 minutes and spent the rest of the time with the Purina rep and the JD dealers at the show...now Van Hargis...by God now there's a cowboy !!

Tamara in TN
I stayed at VH house for two days for a clinic. He is a very good teacher and where I learned some of what I use that works.

[Tamara in TN]

I stayed at VH house for two days for a clinic. He is a very good teacher and where I learned some of what I use that works.

I love his quote "if you are going to get somewhere with your horse, you gotta stop riding in circles"

Tamara in TN

[Manes&Tails]

I love his quote "if you are going to get somewhere with your horse, you gotta stop riding in circles"

Tamara in TN

My favorite saying from my favorite instructor "Don't ride if you are just going to sit and let the wind blow through your hair". He is 77 and still breaking colts.

[sid]

Grey Horse ... what a can of worms,eh?

Basically, take what makes sense to you and your horse (there are many very seasoned knowledgeable horsemen/trainers posting here on the behalf of you and your horse so you are getting a lot of free, experienced advice.).

Then leave the rest. ..hopefully that will be the "crank and spank" method one might see in not so hot dressage trainers (claiming to be so), and the "tie their heads to their sides" method that one might see in the not so hot western trainers.

Whoever told you to lunge your horse to relax it was nutty...so start from there. It's obviously not working.

Start over with your horse, do some research, and don't rely on others to tell you what to do without learning, reading, studying, observing a myriad of horse "trainers", preferably those that have good credentials and have mastered the art and science.

Go to books like Klimke, T-Jones, Cherry Hill, Lyons, and former masters. Only then will you know whether you are doing the right thing by your horse and for your goals with it.

This isn't motorcycle maintenance...we're talking live animals here. Best of luck to you and your horse.

[gallupgirl]

op take the food away for 2weeks iit takes a day to get into the system and 2 weeks to come out before you will see any changes of a zane horse-- then once you do lunge him for 10mins 5 each side and jump on him and ride him with meaning no namby pamby stuff a meanifiul ride
then if hes ok do it for another couple of weeks if hes a bit sluggish then slowly reintroduce the feeds
but if he gets to much cut back - its trial and error with each horse
then you should have a ned to work with ok

So you are advocating starving the horse? It is absolutely amazing the number of people that won't feed them so they can ride them! AMAZING

[Chief2]

I'll bet we'll find a nice pile of bones under that bridge when the OP's finished her 'digesting' of this one.

Since the behavior under saddle isn't explosive and the OP can ride it out, or so she says, then she might as well put the lunge whip down, get on board and start riding her horse. Perhaps this horse would be a good candidate for long distance competitive riding since it is obviously fit and ready to go. Stop running it in circles, stop riding it in circles, get out on the trails and let the poor thing air out its head and breathe. Who knows, it might even be able to work out a few kinks as you both meander to that stall you built for it under the bridge.

Did I say that?

[Woodland]

Well hasn't this been interesting and entertaining!

[Coup De Des]

No Kidding...

Threads like these really bring the Ignorant out of the woodwork.

*shakes head* H&T whenever I feel like I'm going crazy and need to check myself into the nearest psych ward... I'm going to think of you, and it will remind me how I sane I am compared to people like you.

[Cherry]

I'll bet we'll find a nice pile of bones under that bridge when the OP's finished her 'digesting' of this one.
:lol:
So you are advocating starving the horse?
Gallupgirl, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that what goeslikestink meant is take the grain away for two weeks, not all food and not necessarily forever! ;) :lol: Horses can live without grain for significant periods of time, sometimes forever if they are feed enough forage and additional feedstuffs. :winkgrin: I hardly think taking the grain away for that period of time is going to be deterimental; this is the advice my own vet would have given me had I asked him about a situation like this too! Perhaps this horse is getting far more calories than it actually needs and that would account for its wanting to run, run, run. That's one of the best indicators that a horse getting too many calories, as well as snorting at everything it looks at even though he/she has seen it a million times before! :yes:

As long as we have evoked John Lyons name..... He says in order to assess a training plan there are some things you have to ask yourself:

1) can I get hurt?
2) can the horse get hurt?
3) is the horse calmer after being handled than it was before?

I'm sure there are a couple other things too (I'm drawing on memory here). But the point is--you have to be honest with yourself. Tying a horse's head to its tail is asking for trouble in my opinion. If something goes wrong the horse could get hurt and then I could get hurt trying to get the horse out of the situation.

And if the horse isn't calmer after I've laid my hands on it then it's not a good training session and my training plan needs to be reevaluated.... :yes:

[gallupgirl]

You are right Cherry, horses can live for significant periods without grain, especially horses that are pasture puffs and are not in a regular work program. Unfortunately the OP horse IS being worked regularly and will need additional dietary support to take care of it's nutritional and physical needs.

I just don't buy into any program that alters the nutrition of an animal so the owner/trainer/rider is able to control it.

[J Swan]

Ahem - I think was GLS was saying, which is oft repeated on this very BB, is, "More hay, less grain".

Most folks feed rocket fuel to their horses, and then expect them to be tame little ponies when they want to ride. Then they run around buying calming supplements because Dobbin acts like a kid on a sugar high.

Doesn't work that way. ;)

[goeslikestink]

So you are advocating starving the horse? It is absolutely amazing the number of people that won't feed them so they can ride them! AMAZING

i didnt say strave him i said take the grian away so his mind can settle down

if hes feed so much and not in proper work hes going to be hard to handle
there is hay hay as long as you feed that ab lib the horse wont die its ther nateral forage
ffeed and grain if feed in the wrong qautities can make ahorse go faster and be as nutty as hell so if you took the feed grain away for two weeks it comes out of his system allowing him to clam right back down and be a zane horse if the owner slowly reintroduces grian for the amount of work hes been given - then if he s to hot to handle you reduce it a tad
or take the high energy feeds stuff out and replace with cool mix
its trial and error to what suit you in the way of handling a horse

other horse people knew exactly where iam comming from being that iam expreince of breaking horses in and schooling them i know only to well when someones over fed the god darn thing and then say-- oi hes naughty-
especially if hes young and not broken in

[Equilibrium]

Ahem - I think was GLS was saying, which is oft repeated on this very BB, is, "More hay, less grain".

Most folks feed rocket fuel to their horses, and then expect them to be tame little ponies when they want to ride. Then they run around buying calming supplements because Dobbin acts like a kid on a sugar high.

Doesn't work that way. ;)

I agree. I don't think anyone was advocating starving horses. Starch is a big problem for some if not most horses. You'd also be amazed at how little you can feed whilst keeping them fit and happy. Forage should always be your first starting point in feeding then add hard feed according to work, weather, ect. I have a 16.2 hand ISH that gets 1 1/2 pds of food total a day while in easy moderate work. He's on ad lib hay. Very low in starch but has 19% protein and all his vits and mins. You can't see a rib and be hard pressed to find one. He's healthy, gets all he needs, and isn't hungry. Funny thing is we got him quite cheaply as he had behavorial problems. You could feed 5 times what this horse is getting and still have a horse that is starving because they aren't getting vits mins and protein. Oh and he doesn't have behavorial problems now.

Terri


Terri

[gallupgirl]

other horse people knew exactly where iam comming from being that iam expreince of breaking horses in and schooling them i know only to well when someones over fed the god darn thing and then say-- oi hes naughty-
especially if hes young and not broken in

Hey GLS----I am also an experienced horse person. We break babies at the racetrack all the time, and NEVER has a trainer cut their feed.

[goeslikestink]

Hey GLS----I am also an experienced horse person. We break babies at the racetrack all the time, and NEVER has a trainer cut their feed.

honey your are tuaght to run---
i know i have mates that have race horses and i ahve one myself she does eventing

we are talking joe bloggs with a horse as owning it and learning heaps froma young horse
also triainging a young horse
they are trianed differently in the joe bloggs world to the race horse mate

yours for exsample- work out mornings stright out no messing to the nearest gallops
then home then food then maybe out on a tread mill -- food maybe then exercsie again out on the gallops again in the afternoon morning feeds start about 5am
you finish maybe 6or 7pm depending
the rtace horse is an athlete so it gets high grain and lots of exercise to make him fit to run ---
same to with point to point - steeplechasers and national hunt
my duaghter has worked for point to point yards as they freinds of mine
and she has also work for race horse yards as they freinds of mine
jenny pitman being one john best begin another so please i know the game of how to train and race horse and ride one

forgot to mention i am rough rider as in i ride anything across all disaplines
and my daughter is the same

these people are just joe bloggs with ahorse to trian to ride so that they can go and enjoy eventing dressage and showjumping
the horse is tuaght much differently to that of a race horse ok

[J Swan]

Hey GLS----I am also an experienced horse person. We break babies at the racetrack all the time, and NEVER has a trainer cut their feed.


Well, now you're just picking a fight. Breaking babies at the track is different than a young horse under saddle, with an owner that is pouring rocket fuel in pookums feed tub trying to make him all shiny and pretty, and then trying to get on and expecting pookums to do a nice jog or 20 meter circle for two hours.

There is a whole other world outside the track. I foxhunt, and by mid season have a pretty doggone fit horse - one that has no trouble being out for 4 hours. And yeah - he's getting calories and nutrition to match his work, breeding and health requirements.

What you may not realize is that there are lot of folks that give a horse that kind of feed, or even more, and their horse may be doing extremely light work. Like walking or trotting in an arena a couple of times a week.

I can assure you - if we put your track babies and pookums side by side - there would be no comparison.

[Equilibrium]

GG,
We break babies for the track as well. Their nutritional requirements at the moment are more for growing and developing their muscles and skeletal systems. They aren't at the track racing and so I feed them as such. They are on quite a bit of food compared to the others but I can still feed them for temperment while still ensuring they have plenty of everything. Also, all our racehorses are turned out daily for at least 4 hours a day. Even the ones in full training in England get regular turnout. They still get to live like horses. Just because they're racehorses doesn't mean they have to be hopped up on food when your breaking them. It also doens't mean you have to withhold food so you can ride. It's all a balancing act.

Terri

[goeslikestink]

Hey GLS----I am also an experienced horse person. We break babies at the racetrack all the time, and NEVER has a trainer cut their feed.

maybe you could learn a thing or to,

you might well ride and break horses and it dont matter what horse i have to do the job for or the dispaline--
but its putting the horse in the right frame of mind so he can focus on doing a good job
in other words you are telling him its a good idea to xyz
a horse only need to be feed what you are taking out of him each day by that i mean grian
what you take out you put back in--
each dispaline is different in the way of feeding and exercising-
and that also can include - riding schools as the horses ther to work long hours
along with people that hunt for the season - the army with there horses or police with theres.

my point each horse what ever we do we feed it accordly to the work given

but joe bloggs sometimes gets a neddy and might not have the expreince of breaking in a youngster or handling them could be there 1st could that they wanted one just becuase they did and they havent done that part of the equine side before so want to have to learn about thats side
could be they novice green on green could be they got one and know they are expreince riders but dont want to get on it for the 1st time they could have bred one and havent got a clue
there are many reasons why people have youngsters and there are many reason why they get stuck and the most common one is
my horse is a git and not doing as hes told--at xyz
food is often the 1st call-- as its out on the grass -getting rather fat and gassy
and then they feed it and the horse isnt doing anything for that feed so the poor git is as high as kite-- and acts the plonker-- the poor owner ssays jeesers he was anangel whem i got him -- hes turn in to a git-- food related
nearly 1/2 the time its food

and will add most people dont read whats on a packet of grub or what it does in there mind as in horses mind-- they dont know the difference between high enegry food stuff or low or coll mix so feed the wrong type of food to the horse which leads to all kinds of problesm be exercise or health as in lamintus can be food related ie eating to much protien - as in rich grass and being feed on the wrong types of foodstuffs

hope you learning gg

[Bogie]

Geez, I'm not sure I completely understand H&T's method. But I've seen a ton of people who lunge in chambons and various types of sided reins for years. There are times when these "gadgets" can help.

Back to the original poster. Ask a professional to teach you how to lunge your horse to get results. As others have said, you're just making your horse fitter.

[goeslikestink]

do you know i dont actually use anything- never hae
the only time i use anything is long line to long rein or lunge
and if i long rein i used my saddle with long line in strriups
i have a caverson and use that some times but not always as half the time in only lunge for 10 mins maybe and i got to get on so horse is tacked up to lounge and i always pold my reins over his head twice-- and then lunge over th poll to the other side or if in a hurry under the chin to other side- so i dont have a ton of gadets i was always tuaght to use me arse legs and hands-- so i tuaght our debs the same and we teach in the same manor

[lelevic]

Wow. Did you learn that with just one video or did you have to buy the whole set?

That is the funniest thing I have heard! Good thing I wasn't drinking because it would have been all over my computer!! I could just hug you! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[goeslikestink]

That is the funniest thing I have heard! Good thing I wasn't drinking because it would have been all over my computer!! I could just hug you! :lol: :lol: :lol:

yeah swany does do the one liners love it just cracks me up to

[Here Comes Luther]

I'm sorry, and I try to stay out of inflammatory threads like this, but some of y'all are full of crazy! However, there's also been lots of great advice given here. When my guy came off the track, he was full of himself...what helped him the most, was lots of turnout, less grain and more hay, and time to settle in. Keep us posted! :)

[goeslikestink]

you have also got to remeber horse hasnt ben trian as for joe bloggs
so horse has been tuaght to run
different weights of rider and saddle and different pressure points when saddle is laid on the back from racing saddle to english saddle add your weight agian its all different so horse needs to learn from ground up do to the facts of weight of rider to that of a jockey and the saddles then horse could have pressure points - and as hes using different mussles to thatwhat he did use -- for the track then it could be hes complaining and telling you hes hurting so therefore would be a monster on the lunge line as its putting extra stresses and strains on mussles hes either not used or are undeveloped so would advise long reining
till hes more balanced and straight -- and learns baisc commands before i even attempted to get on him

[Woodland]

Geez, I'm not sure I completely understand H&T's method. But I've seen a ton of people who lunge in chambons and various types of sided reins for years. There are times when these "gadgets" can help.

Back to the original poster. Ask a professional to teach you how to lunge your horse to get results. As others have said, you're just making your horse fitter.

Exactly- Chambons, side reins, looping the reins through the front legs through the stirrups and up on the saddle, deGouges, drawreins, or whatever - if you need a bit of help for a FEW sessions to get your horses head screwed back on straight then do it already! Better to have a bit of help then to let things get out of hand! Now if it's your every day every day training, just like with extensive lunging it ceases to be effective after a time.

H & T was not off base. Just because it is not something YOU do does not mean it's wrong.

The first dressage master I worked with insisted I lunge with side reins EVERY time I was to ride my horse - to "get him focused". I had a school master, not a greenie - but his methods were strict and very effective.

The first NH guy i met in the 70's had me work my horse down with an orange flag in a pen before every ride to get my horse "focused". Now the horse was green - but was not for very long after that :)

I went to work for another trainer in 1981 who insisted I always always always ride in draw reins - Method to his madness? Yes he had great success in the show ring.

Now there are two methods right now that have lead to great success that I strongly disagree with. One is extreme Rolkur and the other is hock hobbles One for dressage - used by theTIPPY TOP of their field, and the other is for W.P. - again used by the tippy top in their field. In my book disgusting measures = short cuts to win.

Lunging aparatus? Not so much a big deal in my book. Use it and then shelf it.

[Manes&Tails]

Exactly- Chambons, side reins, looping the reins through the front legs through the stirrups and up on the saddle, deGouges, drawreins, or whatever - if you need a bit of help for a FEW sessions to get your horses head screwed back on straight then do it already! Better to have a bit of help then to let things get out of hand! Now if it's your every day every day training, just like with extensive lunging it ceases to be effective after a time.

H & T was not off base. Just because it is not something YOU do does not mean it's wrong.

The first dressage master I worked with insisted I lunge with side reins EVERY time I was to ride my horse - to "get him focused". I had a school master, not a greenie - but his methods were strict and very effective.

The first NH guy i met in the 70's had me work my horse down with an orange flag in a pen before every ride to get my horse "focused". Now the horse was green - but was not for very long after that :)

I went to work for another trainer in 1981 who insisted I always always always ride in draw reins - Method to his madness? Yes he had great success in the show ring.

Now there are two methods right now that have lead to great success that I strongly disagree with. One is extreme Rolkur and the other is hock hobbles One for dressage - used by theTIPPY TOP of their field, and the other is for W.P. - again used by the tippy top in their field. In my book disgusting measures = short cuts to win.

Lunging aparatus? Not so much a big deal in my book. Use it and then shelf it.

So right on W, Broke in the face is a term, some of you need to go learn what it means and get someone to show you how! I have the best of the Best horsemen in my back yard that I have learned from. Getting a horse to lower his head releases a calming effect to the horse and you better get him broke to the bit and his hind end unlocked so if he tries to run off are buck you, you can pull his head around. Until I starting using the horsemanship skills that go with the term broke in the face/broke to the bit, I would have horse want to buck and run off causing an injury, no injuries since. You got to find away to get the horse to focus on you and get his head out of the sky. I could show you how, but I will let you pay to go have someone show you and tell you since I am so wrong! Just because a person uses a training skill that sounds awful does not mean it really is, its a term! You may only need to do this 5 or 10 mins before you can ride safetly. Bobby Lewis started my mare and he won horseman of the year. Come on people act like you are the herd leader! There are alot of ways to become the herd leader without hurting a horse the way a real herd leader would do to a horse that was not following his rules. Those horses don't go around scared to death of the leader, and my horses are not scared of me or the bit. They walk right up into the halter everyday when I go to catch them, stand sleeping while being groomed and are nice adn quiet on the bit. But, if they don't go quiet, they will get how ever many mins they need of me taking hold of their face, and taking hold of their face can mean many different ways of doing so.

Go pay taking lessons, going to clinics and reading everything you can get your hands on like I did to learn what will work for you and your horse to GET HOLD OF HIS FACE!

GL, become the leader of the herd so you will quit making your horses have more behavioral problems and before one of you gets hurt. Sit and think what a head leader does to his herd to get them to behave and following, he pushes, kicks and bites and getting one on the bit or broke in the face is not as bad as that!

[sid]

H&T -- like so many people who are interested in horses, you seem to be GLUED to one avenue of "training" that you perceive to be successful.

Nothing is cookie cutter with horses, other than that most of them will submit to pressure tactics. Depends upon which side of the ethical fence you are. There is long, slow process that has enormous rewards for the partnership we seek...the opposite is the fast results using one's predator nature against the prey we are dealing with. And of course there's something in between depending upon the animal and its history you are dealing with. Do you understand the difference between the two. Do you care?

How many horses have you owned, and for how long, starting at what age...and what breed(s)? You might get a better shake (and more respect) here if you published your equine CV, because to these knowlegeable and seasoned horsemen on this BB you talk like a neophyte.

Let us know a bit about the myriad of horses of all ages and all backgrounds that you deem what you are instructing via internet which you are purporting to be the Holy Grail.

I for one, admire your passion...but passion must always be "checked".

Ok J Swan..I bit (eeesh!). Couldn't help my self this boring NY eve!

[sid]

J Swam....I concur adamantly. THIS is what gives "NH" (again, I hate that "marketing name" beyond belief) the bad name.

A good idea and methodology run amok. It's a power and control thing I guess. Really tragic.

[sid]

JSwan...if you don't shut your mouth the OP is going to break you in the face too!

I suspect she'd tie your head to your your ass and put a crank noseband on you at the tightest hole (wink!). Now that would be the way to "calm" you down kiddo!

[J Swan]

Yeah. Lots of wisdom there. Well.... aside from the kohlrabi sticks and whanot. I never got into all of that. But I remember, as a kid, sitting on piles of feed sacks and listening to the older folks.

And listening. And watching. And digesting.

Oddly enough - I can't lunge a horse well to save my life. Not because I don't have the skills - but because I'm clumsy. I trip over my own feet. No joke. :no: I can work a horse in hand without poking an eye out, though.

[enjoytheride]

Bravo mods, I've never seen two threads get deleted that fast.

[J Swan]

JSwan...if you don't shut your mouth the OP is going to break you in the face too!

I suspect she'd tie your head to your your ass and put a crank noseband on you at the tightest hole (wink!). Now that would be the way to "calm" you down kiddo!

Well, as long as she doesn't use those tacked nosebands, I think I can take it.

Some folks are so sensitive. I can count a couple of times I've been dragged through the mud.... this was nothing in comparison.

Oh well. The New Year beckons....

[Moderator 2]

Well, this brave moderator would rather be out than editting.... so this is closed.

Come on, people, this is about to be a NEW YEAR - can't we all start by RESPECTING each other - whether or not we agree?? And if you really don't agree with someone, put him/her on your IGNORE list - makes the reading go SO much faster ;)

Happy New Year to all, and please, be nice - it really isn't that hard.... (I think... ;) )