PDA

View Full Version : Do dressage riders consider "Regumate" a bad word?



yellowbritches
Dec. 27, 2007, 07:44 AM
Just curious after a brief discussion on the horse care board. I mentioned that a mare we are selling is on regumate, which seems to turn a lot of people off. Another person was surprised by this and said most people she sells to expect mares to be on it. However, she deals mostly in the hunter world (I think) while this horse is being aimed at the dressage market. So, is it a bad word to dressage riders, or have I just run into a batch that don't quite understand regumate?

Lgd1
Dec. 27, 2007, 07:52 AM
Probably because up until recently they couldn't be on Regumate for competitions. The FEI rules changed this year to permit it and I know that British Dressage (the UK federation) has changed their rules to come into line with the FEI.

snbess
Dec. 27, 2007, 10:31 AM
If it were me looking for a horse and you said she was on regumate, here's what I'd think:
1. She's very mareish
2. Regumate is expensive - now I either have to deal with a high maintenance horse ($1200/year in regumate before I even consider the normal costs of feeding, training, showing her) or get her spayed ($1400-2500). Do I want to take on the added expense?
3. Can I find an equally nice horse who does not have these issues?

So, I can understand why you are getting some looks when you mention it.

Sandra

Reiter
Dec. 27, 2007, 11:06 AM
If it were me looking for a horse and you said she was on regumate, here's what I'd think:
1. She's very mareish
2. Regumate is expensive - now I either have to deal with a high maintenance horse ($1200/year in regumate before I even consider the normal costs of feeding, training, showing her) or get her spayed ($1400-2500). Do I want to take on the added expense?
3. Can I find an equally nice horse who does not have these issues?

So, I can understand why you are getting some looks when you mention it.

Sandra

Yes! :yes:

pintopiaffe
Dec. 27, 2007, 11:15 AM
Regumate is also EXTREMELY dangerous to handle. Many people take it very lightly, and it should not be taken lightly at all. I have used it for quite a few years for timing mares for breeding... have had two accidents/spills in that time, and despite washing the area right away, PAID for it big time.

And while this sounds like Urban Myth, I also *personally* know someone who was very ill and died, and while it cannot be proven, the link to the spill (as in the exact area on her breast!) on her shirt which was worn all day, and the cancer cannot be ignored. Yes, she definitely could have already had something going on and the drug exacerbated it. Absolutely. The coincidence is really too much to bear though.

So while the above posts are really accurate re: marey, cost etc., you really, really have to factor in the handling issue as well. Some boarding facilities don't want to handle it, especially daily. (young girls doing chores/feeding) It's not even safe for men to handle! They can react too to contact!

Having said all that, it certainly has it's uses. But I would spay a mare who 'needed' it continually. And look into the many other options (raspberry leaf, magnesium etc.). The thing is, it *appears* so easy to use. People really get a false sense of security. It is incredibly potent and for me, not worth the risk of 'daily' use. For a couple of weeks in breeding season, absolutely. But not every day of the year. :no:

CatOnLap
Dec. 27, 2007, 11:22 AM
raspberry leaf, magnesium etc
hmmm interesting off track comment, but I have a mare who is much more mare-ish in the winter, and steady eady all spring summer and fall. She LOVES to browse on the wild blackberry leaves when they are around- they are often the only vegetation in fall and spring that she can reach. I wonder if it has anything to do with it. Right now she has been a witch!
As for the regumate- ditto what bess said. any sort of required supplement turns me off a bit in a sale, but that one is hard to handle.

onetempies
Dec. 27, 2007, 11:30 AM
Nope, don't consider it a bad word at all. :D Most of it depends on the reason the mare is on the Regumate though. As far as administering it.... that's why we buy the paste form now, not liquid. Safer and easier AND less expensive! :yes: As far as using it.... even if the mare is horrible, I don't use it continuously every day all year. All mares I have had on it get taken off during the off season when I'm not showing.

Dune
Dec. 27, 2007, 11:45 AM
The mares that I've known that needed to be on it were witchy and give the nice mares a bad name. The thing about a witchy/touchy/sensitive/tense mare and dressage is that it is difficult to get this type of mare to let you ride in it the way you need to in order to progress up the levels. A lot of times this kind of mare is very happy to go around in more of a huntery way and jump but is NOT happy to be ridden the way that a dressage horse should go. And, of course, I don't like handling the stuff the less mess/chemicals the better. :yes:

slc2
Dec. 27, 2007, 11:49 AM
i wonder if some of the 'witchy' mares that 'need regumate' have some underlying condition that could be treated specifically. i had a friend whose mare was awful - she couldn't afford regumate so the mare was not put on it, but what it turned out was that the mare had cystic ovaries. her riding friends wanted the girl to cough up the money for regumate, and actually the mare had a health problem that needed treating.

Dune
Dec. 27, 2007, 11:56 AM
i wonder if some of the 'witchy' mares that 'need regumate' have some underlying condition that could be treated specifically. i had a friend whose mare was awful - she couldn't afford regumate so the mare was not put on it, but what it turned out was that the mare had cystic ovaries. her riding friends wanted the girl to cough up the money for regumate, and actually the mare had a health problem that needed treating.


Of course that is always a possibility. In the case of a couple of the mares that I can think of right off the top of my head, I know that was not the case, the owners checked out their horses quite thoroughly. One was a beautiful blood bay TB mare that was built like a brick house and she was a super equitation/medal horse. She could be "on" one show and get her rider to the finals and then a complete nitwit at other times. Gorgeous lovely mare when she was on. The other was a Swedish/TB mare that did make it to PSG but was always super tense at home and at the shows and would get an "8" on one movement and then blow up and get a "3". These two mares were beautiful, always tense, lovely movers/jumpers and hussies in the crossties.:yes:

flshgordon
Dec. 27, 2007, 12:12 PM
Just curious after a brief discussion on the horse care board. I mentioned that a mare we are selling is on regumate, which seems to turn a lot of people off. Another person was surprised by this and said most people she sells to expect mares to be on it. However, she deals mostly in the hunter world (I think) while this horse is being aimed at the dressage market. So, is it a bad word to dressage riders, or have I just run into a batch that don't quite understand regumate?

I wouldn't consider it a bad word at all, but I am REALLY curious about the person who says most mares she sells, people expect them to be on it? :confused: WTF? I don't know THAT many mares that are on it, and I've known a lot of mares in my life.

I wouldn't completely discount a mare for sale who is on it, but she'd have to be something REALLY special for me to justify the expense and risk if she had to be on it all the time.

ThreeFigs
Dec. 27, 2007, 12:42 PM
Regumate is my friend! I put Bea on it this summer and the difference is heaven-sent!

She has become a happier, friendlier, relaxed animal. I feel bad that I didn't put her on it sooner. I thought she was just a jerk -- when in reality, her heat cycles were terribly painful.

I tried all the mare herbs, magnesium, Stress-Dex, what-have-you over the last couple of years. For a while, thought I could see some improvement with the herbs, but the effects did not last. Regumate helped and so far the effect has not worn off.

There was a time I wouldn't have considered breeding this mare because of her "difficulties". Now that I know what made her so unhappy, I would consider breeding her, as her disposition is good now. I wouldn't have said that a year ago.

Reiter
Dec. 27, 2007, 06:13 PM
One of my broodmares is like this and riding her when she's in heat is like sitting on a powder keg! I guess PMS exists even in horses! She's a whole different animal when she's pregnant! ;)

pintopiaffe
Dec. 27, 2007, 06:22 PM
There was a time I wouldn't have considered breeding this mare because of her "difficulties". Now that I know what made her so unhappy, I would consider breeding her, as her disposition is good now. I wouldn't have said that a year ago.

Can't really disagree with this more. Since reproductive issues tend to be genetic, and there is a strong chance a daughter will inherit her mother's tendencies for things like gestation length, whether or not she's an 'every year' mare etc.,

I can't see why you would perpetuate a mare with hormone issues unless she is phenomenal. :no:

yellowbritches
Dec. 27, 2007, 06:40 PM
Thanks for the insights, everyone.

I was a little baffled by the comment on expecting most mares to be on, as this is the first mare in many, many years I've known to need it (and if I remember correctly, the last one was on it to get her cycles right to breed her...I think). And, admittedly, I was very spoiled prior to this mare by three incredibly lovely mares that were just gems to work with and around.

As for the expense, I think the estimate of $1200 is on the high side. The client who owns the mare in question paid a bit more than $200 for a three month supply. Even if she was kept on it for 12 months of the year, that would still only be $800+...and you can easily spend that in totally unnecessary supplements.

Again, thanks for the insights. I am glad to see it isn't totally a bad thing in the dressage world. We'll continue marketing her, be honest and upfront as always, and see where it gets us. And I will be taking onetempies advice to heart and will be getting regumate in paste form! :yes:

Daydream Believer
Dec. 27, 2007, 07:17 PM
Something to consider...and I can't remember where I read it recently...Equus perhaps? Anyway research has shown that difficult mares can often find some relief by having a Caslicks operation to partially close their vaginal opening. Apparently in some mares, they are physically uncomfortable from "windsucking" or air getting into their vaginal area during exercise...thus the "witchy mare" behavior from the resultant discomfort. It might be something to try before Regumate as it's pretty easy to do and easy to undo as well. Regumate is a PITA to handle. As a breeding operation, we do have to handle the drug for client mares and I am very concerned about getting it on my skin so I have rubber gloves and take normal precautions but there is always the risk of a spill or accidentally getting it on you. If you are premenopausal women, it is a significant concern for your own health.

I did not know there was a paste. Next time we have a mare on it, I will ask for it instead of the liquid.

ThreeFigs
Dec. 27, 2007, 08:05 PM
Daydream Believer -- the Caslick's doesn't do a damn thing except prevent the "windsucking" phenomenon that you mentioned. My mare got a Caslicks before I purchased her (why, I don't know -- the previous owner got talked into it for no good reason.) so I know her "problem" is not due to air in the vagina.

If a Caslick's has ever helped a mare with hormonal symptoms, I'd love to hear about it.

Peggy
Dec. 27, 2007, 08:21 PM
In addition to the paste, there are also implants/beads. No idea how the cost compares. Regumate can be nasty. The rule at my old barn was that no one with a uterus was supposed to handle it. Also have a friend who had a pretty nasty reaction (no periods or really heavy ones w/ lots of cramping for months) as a result of handling regumate or something similar for cows.

Daydream Believer
Dec. 27, 2007, 09:54 PM
Daydream Believer -- the Caslick's doesn't do a damn thing except prevent the "windsucking" phenomenon that you mentioned. My mare got a Caslicks before I purchased her (why, I don't know -- the previous owner got talked into it for no good reason.) so I know her "problem" is not due to air in the vagina.

If a Caslick's has ever helped a mare with hormonal symptoms, I'd love to hear about it.

The point of the article was that windsucking can cause mareish behavior and the Caslicks helps some mares. It might be worth a try before using Regumate but I agree...if she is difficult when in season, than I doubt the Caslicks will help much. I think they were referring to mares who show difficult behavior all the time, not just in season.

Interesting that Regumate can be given to geldings ...not per label use...but my vet was actually saying that he has prescribed it for high strung show geldings as it has a "sedating" effect on males....possibly on females as well...not sure on that point. Not sure of the ethics on that one, but I would not be surprised if there are not a number of geldings showing on the stuff also.

Still Workingonit
Dec. 27, 2007, 10:06 PM
It would put me off and the first question I would ask if I thought there was sufficient reason to enquire about the horse, based on record/breeding etc, was "why?". As I also look for future breeding prospects, a mare that "had" to be on Regumate would also be off my list for future breeding.

I did have a mare that one new-time vet recommended regumate for. She was the "come at you with teeth and hooves" school when in season but a sweet kind willing mare when not (and thank god, NOT a continual cycler like my present two mares). I did/do firmly believe in finding out root causes, if possible, and enlisted the aid of an "old-time" vet. The internal showed exactly why she was like she was - her utereus was twisted like a wrung out dish-rag. We had only one option - speying. (Okay, two - the other was euthanasia which was not an option). Took 6 months of recovery but she came out great. (I was given this mare by my dad - if i had purcahsed her, the internal would have been done as part of my routine vet check.)

CatOnLap
Dec. 28, 2007, 10:27 AM
I think mares being "witchy" or hormonal is very very common. It might be a very good thing to NOT breed strongly hormonal mares, but it would wipe out a third of the breeding population.
That we now have a hormone treatment that suppresses the natural cycle is beneficial to performance mares and I'm not surprised a number of performing mares do better when their cycles are suppressed.
Certainly beats what they decided to do in ancient and romantic times- keep all the mares for driving in coach or breeding purposes only, and only ride and show the stallions and geldings.
Given a choice between a gelding on no supplement and a mare on a supplement, the gelding would get me every time. I am not a breeder and do not believe in breeding horses just because they are no longer rideable.

GreekDressageQueen
Dec. 28, 2007, 03:30 PM
My mare was on Regumate for awhile. She is generally a grumpy witch, but not when she is in season. She is actually very lovey-dovey, slow, and relaxed - which was the problem! When I moved her from England to Greece she would cycle too often (probably due to the abundant sunshine and lack of seasons) and Regumate was used to keep her regular during show season.

So, no - I wouldn't be turned off by Regumate except for the cost.

Janet
Dec. 28, 2007, 03:55 PM
I think mares being "witchy" or hormonal is very very common. I think they are a lot less common than people think. I owned/leased/been closely involved with as many mares as geldings (at least 8 mares) and NOT ONE OF THEM was "witchy" or hormonal. Sure, some of them were opinionated or grumpy, but no more so than the geldings, and not tied to their cycles.

yellowbritches
Dec. 28, 2007, 07:38 PM
I think they are a lot less common than people think. I owned/leased/been closely involved with as many mares as geldings (at least 8 mares) and NOT ONE OF THEM was "witchy" or hormonal. Sure, some of them were opinionated or grumpy, but no more so than the geldings, and not tied to their cycles.
I agree. Like I said, the mare in question is the first one in a very long time (talking 10 years or more) that I've known to actually need regumate. There are three other mares in our barn with her (two being chestnuts :lol:) that are all, for the most part sensible and even keel (two I haven't known yet through breeding season, but neither of their owners have ever mentioned them being bad). When this mare came into the barn, I had 3 other mares, all of which were easy to deal with (one would go through a bad spell very early in the spring). I've had several other mares in the barn and while they haven't always been saints, most of their issues could be just as easily have been their breeding or their owners. This mare is an exception in my book, not the rule.