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jack mac
Dec. 23, 2007, 04:41 AM
After viewing this natural balance how to apply the NB shoe that Rick burten kindly posted, i feel its a worthy topic for discussion & hopefully it will be discussed sensible , as a traditionally trained farrier i think the horse industry should know the big differences & concepts between traditional & NB farriers, they are not one & the same, that is of course if the moderator will allow the discussion :)

http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/miscfiles/NBSGuide-Al-1pg.pdf

goeslikestink
Dec. 23, 2007, 04:58 AM
a qualified farrier offers a complete service
and services to what the horse in question -- needs

Rick Burten
Dec. 23, 2007, 07:46 AM
as a traditionally trained farrier i think the horse industry should know the big differences & concepts between traditional & NB farriers, they are not one & the same, that is of course if the moderator will allow the discussion :)
Well, I am a "traditionally trained farrier" too. But I digress...

Please expound on these alleged "big differences & concepts" between traditional & NB farriers.

Katy Watts
Dec. 23, 2007, 08:05 AM
Jac Mac,
Have you ever seen a horse shod by someone who has been trained and approved by Gene Ovnecik? Are there any farriers approved by Gene Ovnecik in your region?

Yes or no is sufficient.
Katy

CookiePony
Dec. 23, 2007, 09:09 AM
...i think the horse industry should know the big differences & concepts between traditional & NB farriers, they are not one & the same, that is of course if the moderator will allow the discussion :)

http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/miscfiles/NBSGuide-Al-1pg.pdf

OK, for the non-farrier members of the horse industry (i.e. most of the posters on COTH), will you tell us the hoof preparation and shoe placement guidelines for "traditional farriers"? Otherwise we have nothing to compare the NB method to.

deltawave
Dec. 23, 2007, 09:34 AM
What's the point of the thread's title, then? Honest to God, this is starting to get so tiresome.


i think the horse industry should know the big differences & concepts between traditional & NB farriers

Give us a little credit, will you? Most of us are very well aware of the different theories and concepts of shoeing horses. Most of us learned these things from our farriers with whom, I daresay, most horse people converse on the topic for oh, let's say a couple of hours every 5-7 weeks as their farrier is working and the topic is "at hand". We ask questions, they provide answers. "What's this I hear, Mike, about these Natural Balance shoes?" a horse owner might ask. Or "You know, Lynn, I think this horse's feet could do with XYZ", the farrier might say. INTERCHANGE AND DISCUSSION. It actually happens in real life, without the histrionics and drama-queen antics of the fundamentalists.

Which is why, although I usually peek in these threads to maybe hear something new or (if I'm in the mood) giggle at the foolishness, I make decisions with MY FARRIER.

JHUshoer20
Dec. 23, 2007, 11:04 AM
OK, for the non-farrier members of the horse industry (i.e. most of the posters on COTH), will you tell us the hoof preparation and shoe placement guidelines for "traditional farriers"? Otherwise we have nothing to compare the NB method to.
Properly fitted horseshoes should be shaped to fit the foot. All too often the natural bs zealots fit feet to shoes.

Should be of interest to the barefooters to see horseshoers with such strong factions within themselves.

Jack has some very enlightening things to say about that style of shoeing. It's my hope that he'll be allowed to talk.
George

feetfirst
Dec. 23, 2007, 11:26 AM
I think it would very useful for Jacko to show us the differences with picture aids...
I dare say that he would be willing to shoe to the NB protocols to offer as a comparision, awful lot of big words in them instructions.

JB
Dec. 23, 2007, 11:56 AM
Properly fitted horseshoes should be shaped to fit the foot. All too often the natural bs zealots fit feet to shoes.
What is a "natural bs zealot"? How about "people who don't know how to properly trim a foot, or fit a shoe, often fit the foot to the shoe.


Should be of interest to the barefooters to see horseshoers with such strong factions within themselves.
Not of any interest at all, because it was never in any doubt.


Jack has some very enlightening things to say about that style of shoeing. It's my hope that he'll be allowed to talk.
That's fine if he wants to have a real discussion without automatically making widespread conclusions and accusations.

Lookout
Dec. 23, 2007, 01:06 PM
Should be of interest to the barefooters to see horseshoers with such strong factions within themselves.

George

:eek: Newsflash.

Rick Burten
Dec. 23, 2007, 01:40 PM
Properly fitted horseshoes should be shaped to fit the foot.
A too broad generalization that forgets the first tenant of farriery. To wit: "It Depends"

All too often the natural bs zealots fit feet to shoes.

Again, you tar with too wide a brush. Please offer substantiation for that comment.

What I find to be a more common occurence is that those who, for whatever reason(s) do not like, do not understand, are not willing to learn, and are subject to a whole host of personal prejudices when the subject/topic arises, make statements such as that which you just made.

jack mac
Dec. 23, 2007, 02:39 PM
Jac Mac,
Have you ever seen a horse shod by someone who has been trained and approved by Gene Ovnecik? Are there any farriers approved by Gene Ovnecik in your region?

Yes or no is sufficient.
Katy1 yes 2 they abandoned it 5 years back.

jack mac
Dec. 23, 2007, 03:38 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, in your NB protocolo how to fit a NB shoe it depicts only one diagram, I'm assuming the procedure applies to all four hooves being fitted the same way?, & if this is the case, doesnt any one who advocates for NB find it a little strange for nature to produce four hoofs that would be identical on all four limbs?, when clearly the knee elbow & shoulder joint work in opposed direction to the hock stifle & hip , we know a horse lands heels first in his front limbs, dose he's hind hooves follow the same action? ,& if not wouldn't this necessitate a different shaped & structured hoof ,& wouldn't this all so mean the hind hooves would display a different wear patten then that of the front hooves ? :)

deltawave
Dec. 23, 2007, 04:20 PM
I've never seen a horse shod behind with NB shoes, although I'm sure it is done. One of mine wears them in front because it suits her, the other one does not. Whatever.

jack mac
Dec. 23, 2007, 05:07 PM
Theses are all the things you are taught not to do when traditional trained as the practice of has been proven for more than a century to lead to crippling lameness in the horse, & if you wish to keep a horse sound for the duration of his nature life.When finishing the foot, only remove the flares that are
obvious from the mid portion of the hoof wall down.its called dumping & boxing the foot its been written about for over a hundred years as one of the most destructive things you can do to a hoof capsule performed regular it leads to contraction & eventually side bone (Fig.
4-A) Undercut the remaining hoof left over the shoe.dumping the toe another crippling destructive affliction condemned by writings for over a hundred years a (Fig.
4-B) This will give you the appearance of the Naturally
worn bare foot. This statement is one of the most contemptible as a farrier i have ever read, it imply to purposely set out to not keep the hoof in pristine condition & encourages one to insidiously systematicly & destructively give the hoof a worn out appearance, which in my book is tantamount to abuse

jack mac
Dec. 23, 2007, 05:20 PM
I've never seen a horse shod behind with NB shoes, although I'm sure it is done. One of mine wears them in front because it suits her, the other one does not. Whatever.so then what your saying in you supporting this theory to be correct, that only your front half of your horse needs to be balanced the other half doesnt apply or matter is that what your saying ?

JHUshoer20
Dec. 23, 2007, 05:59 PM
Hey Jack,
Have you noticed as I have that the proponents of this style are also usually people who turn their noses up at forging?
George

Rick Burten
Dec. 23, 2007, 08:05 PM
1 yes 2 they abandoned it 5 years back.
That would not be possible because the certification process is only about two years old.

Ar you sure you are not confusing the NB protocols/shoes with the poorly made, unalterable, lousy rip-off copies of NB shoes known as "Cytek shoes"? If so, and that is what has gotten your undies all wadded up, then I can well understand why.

Rick Burten
Dec. 23, 2007, 08:15 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, in your NB protocolo how to fit a NB shoe it depicts only one diagram,
Yes, there is only one diagram and that is of a front hoof. Since shoe fit is dependent on correctly trimming and mapping the hoof, the parameters of the fit remain relatively constant. That said, one does not merely pull a shoe out of the box and nail it home, It often requires modifications, especially when dealing with narrow, boxy feet. Also take note that the toe of the NB "Center Fit" shoe is manufactured such that it is not as wide as the toe of the original NB shoe.

I'm assuming the procedure applies to all four hooves being fitted the same way?,
Not quite. Though the concepts involved in the trimming protocol, trimming to the live sole plane, removal of distortions, mapping, remain the same, the fit is somewhat different because the hind foot is shaped differently than the front.

if this is the case, doesnt any one who advocates for NB find it a little strange for nature to produce four hoofs that would be identical on all four limbs?,
Now that you know that your assumstion is incorrect, the answer should be obvious to you.
And, anyone who trims or shoes horses on a regular basis, especially if that someone is a professional, knows that most of the time, nature doesn't even produce a paired(front or hind) pair of feet that are identical.

we know a horse lands heels first in his front limbs, dose he's hind hooves follow the same action?
Generally speaking, yes. But, as always, It Depends.

if not wouldn't this necessitate a different shaped & structured hoof ,& wouldn't this all so mean the hind hooves would display a different wear patten then that of the front hooves ? :)
It Depends.

Rick Burten
Dec. 23, 2007, 08:34 PM
Theses are all the things you are taught not to do when traditional trained as the practice of has been proven for more than a century to lead to crippling lameness in the horse, & if you wish to keep a horse sound for the duration of his nature life.
Absolute rubbish.

When finishing the foot, only remove the flares that are
obvious from the mid portion of the hoof wall down.its called dumping & boxing the foot its been written about for over a hundred years as one of the most destructive things you can do to a hoof capsule performed regular it leads to contraction & eventually side bone
No, it does not and it never has. No properly trained traditional farrier is ever taught to "leave the flares"

Now, I think we can both agree that the American Farrriers Association is a "Tradition based" organization. So, let me quote to you from the AFA's Certification Study Guide which gives the parameters for evaluating the trimming, shoe fabrication, shoe application and finishing the feet for the certification. (the numbers represent the scores that are possible depending on the work)

"Wall Dressing(figures 25 & 26)
10 The hoof wall is straight. All dishes and flares removed smoothly from the coronary
band to the ground or (at least) the bottom two thirds of the hoof.

8,6,4,2 There are varying degrees of error(e.g., dubbing, over or under-dressing of dishes
and/or flares) which could be corrected without harming the horse or endangering
secure nailing."

Now, it would seem that the 'traditiional' way actually involves more and higher wall dressing than do the NB protocols. Hmmmm........

(Figure4-A) Undercut the remaining hoof left over the shoe.dumping the toe another crippling destructive affliction condemned by writings for over a hundred years
This is not dumping the toe. Were you more cognizant about the protocol, you would know that the ?underecut" refers to taking the rasp and from the bottom, creating a slight angle to the portion of the foot that overhangs the shoe. Call it "light rockering" if it suits your understanding better. Surely you are not anti rockered toes are you? After all, that is ever so traditional.

(Figure4-B) This will give you the appearance of the Naturally
worn bare foot. This statement is one of the most contemptible as a farrier i have ever read,
Then I suggest you read more. A lot more.

it imply to purposely set out to not keep the hoof in pristine condition & encourages one to insidiously systematicly & destructively give the hoof a worn out appearance, which in my book is tantamount to abuse
Your book is wrong. This procedure does not give the hoof a "worn out appearance", nore does it change the hoof from a pristine condition. Unless of course, that pristine condition includes flare, dishes and other distortions such as underrun heels and run-out toes.

And let me repeat, yet again, for the record, the NB protocols do not advocate or teach "dumping the toe", "dubbing the toe " or any other such tomfoolery.

matryoshka
Dec. 23, 2007, 09:11 PM
I don't shoe, but I purchased Gene Ovnicek's videos for the information he provides on trimming. I also bought his shoeing video, and it seems to me that he is interested in having the hoof trimmed and shod so that the breakover and hoof support are correct for the limb, not just the foot. I found this refreshing after studying a number of methods that seem to ignore the horse who is standing on the hoof in question. With so many run-forward feet out there, Ovnicek offers a way to bring the breakover back to the correct point nearly instantaneously. Those of us who stick to trimming rather than shoe have to get to this point gradually and encourage growth that adheres to the dorsal wall of P3 without flaring.

Rockering is a similar way to get that effect, where the heel leaves the ground when it should, rather than being delayed by too forward a toe. One can't apply rockering to every barefoot hoof out there, unless one likes to see blood and lame horses.

One of the things I really liked about Ovnicek's video is that he evaluates horses in motion for the viewer and doesn't shy away from showing feet that need a lot of work. He compares before and after his shoeing. It is really aggravating to watch somebody somebody teach "how to trim a foundered foot" and have a foot that does not exhibit much rotation.

Incorporating some of his concepts into my trims has really helped some of the horses who have feet that are way out of whack. I can get what I want faster without soring horses using some of his principles. That's awesome.

Please keep in mind that I've only been trimming for about 3 years, but I do a lot of rescued horses and see a lot of very strange and neglected feet. I've had to learn fast to get these horses sound and rideable in a reasonable amount of time through trimming alone. Ovnicek's videos have been very helpful in achieving this.

Rick Burten
Dec. 23, 2007, 09:29 PM
Hey Jack,
Have you noticed as I have that the proponents of this style are also usually people who turn their noses up at forging?
George
Wanna bet?

jack mac
Dec. 23, 2007, 09:57 PM
Hey Jack,
Have you noticed as I have that the proponents of this style are also usually people who turn their noses up at forging?
George :yes:you have hit the nail on the head, most cant even alter a machine made shoe let alone make one, sad but true.

jack mac
Dec. 23, 2007, 10:17 PM
That would not be possible because the certification process is only about two years old.

Ar you sure you are not confusing the NB protocols/shoes with the poorly made, unalterable, lousy rip-off copies of NB shoes known as "Cytek shoes"? If so, and that is what has gotten your undies all wadded up, then I can well understand why. Cytek, NB the literature is identical same rave about the wild horses having different hooves's same concept of sitting shoes over soles boxing feet & dumping two's ,think i still have a copy of it some were, id have to go though my old files, i dont know who riped who off but cytek ran & started there farrier training accreditations 6-7 years ago the same people that flogging dead horse are know flogging the NB rave its the same tar just calling the brush something fancier & a steel shoe instead of a cast one.

Katy Watts
Dec. 23, 2007, 10:24 PM
I fired a guy who made the most beautiful made from scratch heart bar shoes for my foundered mare. He had to make a new set every six weeks because her feet continued to distort and run forward. Every pair he made was narrower and more oblong shaped. Her heels got crushed and contracted. The farrier just could not bear to rasp off the flares, or abandon the perimeter fit he was taught, and that earned him championship titles. That farrier told me to put my mare down. He could not get her sound enough to stand.
When Gene pulled those heart bars off her, he said 'that is beautiful forge work'. Gene's EDSS got her walking again, and it turned her around. Both my mares owe their lives to Gene Onveciks work, and that of those he taught.
Just because something has been taught for hundreds of years does not make it right. Slavery, corsets, blood letting, arranged marriage.
Tradition means nothing to me. Having a sound 21 YO mare who was supposed to be put down 6 years ago is is meaningful. And I'm OK if their feet do not conform to your concept of tidiness.
Your opinion does not count.
Katy

JSwan
Dec. 23, 2007, 10:24 PM
Which is why, although I usually peek in these threads to maybe hear something new or (if I'm in the mood) giggle at the foolishness, I make decisions with MY FARRIER.

Geez. That's what I should have done instead of posting on the other thread. I chipped a nail from all that typing. :cool:

deltawave
Dec. 23, 2007, 10:28 PM
I chipped a nail from all that typing. :cool:

You need biotin. Or manganese. Or magnesium. Or chromium. Or SOMETHING...clearly something is missing. :lol: This should not happen to a normal nail if you cared for your fingers properly. Have you considered changing your diet? More turnout? New saddle? Magnets?

:p

JSwan
Dec. 23, 2007, 10:35 PM
You need biotin. Or manganese. Or magnesium. Or chromium. Or SOMETHING...clearly something is missing. :lol: This should not happen to a normal nail if you cared for your fingers properly. Have you considered changing your diet? More turnout? New saddle? Magnets?

:p

I need to rocker it. You know - the mustang roll. And tuck. Or whatever. I'll have you know I use magnets all the time -my aura has improved dramatically - all the voices in my head say so. Maybe I'm missing my marbles.

I'm kinda feeling sorry for my horses though. All this talk about NB and barefoot and videos and I've just got the feeling their pathetic lives must be so miserable..... maybe I'll hire an animal communicator just to be sure.

meow.

JHUshoer20
Dec. 23, 2007, 10:38 PM
I fired a guy who made the most beautiful made from scratch heart bar shoes for my foundered mare. He had to make a new set every six weeks because her feet continued to distort and run forward. Every pair he made was narrower and more oblong shaped. Her heels got crushed and contracted. The farrier just could not bear to rasp off the flares, or abandon the perimeter fit he was taught, and that earned him championship titles. That farrier told me to put my mare down. He could not get her sound enough to stand.
When Gene pulled those heart bars off her, he said 'that is beautiful forge work'. Gene's EDSS got her walking again, and it turned her around. Both my mares owe their lives to Gene Onveciks work, and that of those he taught. You ever think maybe a whole bunch of things including barefoot might have served your horse just as well? I've seen heartbars fail often enough too.

Just because something has been taught for hundreds of years does not make it right. Slavery, corsets, blood letting, arranged marriage.
Slavery been gone in this country before any of us were born although the underemployed and in debt might disagree. Corsets are hot, I like them and so does my gf, bloodletting has been proven to be effective in some circumstances and is making a comeback as are leeches and such. Arranged marriage, well perhaps thats not a bad idea either. Our disgracefully high divorce rate is pretty conclusive proof that many people don't make wise decisions on their own in that area either.

Just pointing this stuff out to be a PITA:D
George

JHUshoer20
Dec. 23, 2007, 10:40 PM
You need biotin. Or manganese. Or magnesium. Or chromium. Or SOMETHING...clearly something is missing. :lol: This should not happen to a normal nail if you cared for your fingers properly. Have you considered changing your diet? More turnout? New saddle? Magnets?

:p
Nonsense, just needs to be trimmed properly:)
George

deltawave
Dec. 23, 2007, 10:41 PM
Hold on there. I defy you to name ONE condition, other than hemochromatosis for which the therapy of "bloodletting" has been recommended for A CENTURY, where bloodletting is "making a comeback". I understand the use of hyperbole very well, but let's not go overboard. :) Just to be a PITA, too... ;)

JHUshoer20
Dec. 23, 2007, 10:44 PM
High Blood Pressure

Also, as far as horses go, Rood and Riddle in Kentucky have been doing a lot of progressive research employing the use of maggots in recent years as well.
George

jack mac
Dec. 23, 2007, 11:38 PM
I fired a guy who made the most beautiful made from scratch heart bar shoes for my foundered mare. He had to make a new set every six weeks because her feet continued to distort and run forward. Every pair he made was narrower and more oblong shaped. Her heels got crushed and contracted. The farrier just could not bear to rasp off the flares, or abandon the perimeter fit he was taught, and that earned him championship titles. That farrier told me to put my mare down. He could not get her sound enough to stand.
When Gene pulled those heart bars off her, he said 'that is beautiful forge work'. Gene's EDSS got her walking again, and it turned her around. Both my mares owe their lives to Gene Onveciks work, and that of those he taught.
Just because something has been taught for hundreds of years does not make it right. Slavery, corsets, blood letting, arranged marriage.
Tradition means nothing to me. Having a sound 21 YO mare who was supposed to be put down 6 years ago is is meaningful. And I'm OK if their feet do not conform to your concept of tidiness.
Your opinion does not count.
Katy what your forgetting Katy is time, founder will improve over it if there isn't anther attack as some one who purports to be some what of an authority on founder should know, personally i wouldn't have a shoe on the foot till such time as the feet have settled it makes no sense to elevate the sole from the ground when the sole is dropping ,the exception is if a pad is required as the sole has been breached by the bone but in most cases a ezyboot is more preferable & i never recommend nor was i ever taught to put heart bare shoes on a foundering horse that idea only became popular in the late early 1980s hardly classed as traditional.

jack mac
Dec. 23, 2007, 11:49 PM
Hold on there. I defy you to name ONE condition, other than hemochromatosis for which the therapy of "bloodletting" has been recommended for A CENTURY, where bloodletting is "making a comeback". I understand the use of hyperbole very well, but let's not go overboard. :) Just to be a PITA, too... ;)Hate to tell you this but i still bleed them when there foundering ,take approx 4-5 galleons out of them via the jugular & have had grate results, a hell of a lot better than any one who advocated it was nonsense ;)

JHUshoer20
Dec. 23, 2007, 11:57 PM
You know Jack thats interesting, I've had older people tell me about drilling holes in the dorsal wall of a hot founder releasing the blood and curing the founder. Mr Stovall even said he saw Burney Chapman do it once.
Nobody under at least age 65 has ever heard of it but the old timers swear it works as do many Amish.

Have you ever tried that?
George

Lookout
Dec. 24, 2007, 12:07 AM
You know Jack thats interesting, I've had older people tell me about drilling holes in the dorsal wall of a hot founder releasing the blood and curing the founder. Mr Stovall even said he saw Burney Chapman do it once.
Nobody under at least age 65 has ever heard of it but the old timers swear it works as do many Amish.

Have you ever tried that?
George

How is this different than a hoof wall resection, other than in the size of the area removed?

tarynls
Dec. 24, 2007, 12:31 AM
High Blood Pressure

Also, as far as horses go, Rood and Riddle in Kentucky have been doing a lot of progressive research employing the use of maggots in recent years as well.
George


Yes, Scott Morrison at Rood and Riddle has been doing research re: maggot debridement therapy. However, if you reference the Hoofcare and Lameness article (Issue 78, from around October 2004), here:
http://www.hoofcare.com/article_pdf/HoofcareMaggotsMorrison.pdf
Dr. Donald Walsh (from Rood & Riddle's equine podiatry center), states he had a foundered horse (all 4 hooves were affected) in June 2003 that he successfully used maggots to debride dead tissue in the horse's hooves.

There is also a reference to an article published by Janet Hinshaw, DVM in Worldwide Wounds. Her article is titled "Larval Therapy: A Review of Clinical Human and Veterinary Studies" if anyone would like to research this topic further.

Hope this may help someone.

I would be interested (along with Deltawave) in reading any current papers as to why "bloodletting" would be beneficial to a horse with hypertension (high blood pressure). My education leads me to believe that this was done in animals with an iron overload in their bloodstream (hemochromatosis).

jack mac, are you a vet? In my state, venipuncture (ie. puncturing the jugular vein) is a veterinary procedure, thus, to be performed by a veterinarian only. Do you have a veterinarian "drain" 4-5 GALLONS of blood? In these parts, couldn't find a vet to perform such an archaic procedure.

Actually, you may want to reference "Artistic Horseshoeing" by Prof. George E. Rich, reprint published in 1907. In the "Founder" section (page 140), he advocates "bleed from the neck vein 3-4 gallons, or until he falls, then give the following: 1/2 ounce of aloes, 4 drachmas gamboge, 1/2 ounce of oil of sassafras; make this into a pill, give it, and give him all the sassafras tea he will drink; turn up his feet and fill them full of boiling hot lard, bathe his legs in hot water and rub them well. This will never fail to cure in 48 hours."

Are you truly following advice from over 100 years ago?

Just curious :)

JHUshoer20
Dec. 24, 2007, 12:46 AM
I would be interested (along with Deltawave) in reading any current papers as to why "bloodletting" would be beneficial to a horse with hypertension (high blood pressure). My education leads me to believe that this was done in animals with an iron overload in their bloodstream (hemochromatosis).
I have no knowledge as to whether or not horses suffer from high blood pressure or not. I know it was done for humans years ago and was effective if not overdone. Today they use drugs instead but will still work if in a place with no drugs doctors or pharmacies.

If horses do have that problem how would anyone even know? I've never seen a cuff big enough to put around their leg so is hard to say. Might be a good thing to do research on.

Jack is a horseshoer from Australia. I also don't know anything about the laws over there but I'm confident he knows what he's talking about.
George

JHUshoer20
Dec. 24, 2007, 12:51 AM
How is this different than a hoof wall resection, other than in the size of the area removed?
Not much, is just a matter of drilling holes. Similar to what you do if you smash a finger and have blood under the nail. If you were to burn or drill a small hole in the nail letting out the trapped blood it relieves the pressure and feels much better. Very likely saving the nail.

Is essentially doing the same thing to a horse. Some drill one hole, some drill several in a pattern. I've heard that the blood shoots out like a geyser for a few seconds and then the horse walks off sound.

Never having done it I find it real interesting and wish some more research and or experimentation could be done in this area.
George

jack mac
Dec. 24, 2007, 01:04 AM
Absolute rubbish.

No, it does not and it never has. No properly trained traditional farrier is ever taught to "leave the flares"

Now, I think we can both agree that the American Farrriers Association is a "Tradition based" organization. So, let me quote to you from the AFA's Certification Study Guide which gives the parameters for evaluating the trimming, shoe fabrication, shoe application and finishing the feet for the certification. (the numbers represent the scores that are possible depending on the work)

"Wall Dressing(figures 25 & 26)
10 The hoof wall is straight. All dishes and flares removed smoothly from the coronary
band to the ground or (at least) the bottom two thirds of the hoof.

8,6,4,2 There are varying degrees of error(e.g., dubbing, over or under-dressing of dishes
and/or flares) which could be corrected without harming the horse or endangering
secure nailing."

Now, it would seem that the 'traditiional' way actually involves more and higher wall dressing than do the NB protocols. Hmmmm........

This is not dumping the toe. Were you more cognizant about the protocol, you would know that the ?underecut" refers to taking the rasp and from the bottom, creating a slight angle to the portion of the foot that overhangs the shoe. Call it "light rockering" if it suits your understanding better. Surely you are not anti rockered toes are you? After all, that is ever so traditional.

Then I suggest you read more. A lot more.

Your book is wrong. This procedure does not give the hoof a "worn out appearance", nore does it change the hoof from a pristine condition. Unless of course, that pristine condition includes flare, dishes and other distortions such as underrun heels and run-out toes.

And let me repeat, yet again, for the record, the NB protocols do not advocate or teach "dumping the toe", "dubbing the toe " or any other such tomfoolery. I dont care whether its from the top or bottom its dumping you have just given it a nice caring tag , & landing heels first in the hind feet well that's caused from to lowering the heels to much & not enough toe, you wouldn't be shoeing race horses for long rick they call that hyperextending when the heels hit first & most times get down on there bumpers, "hitting the backs of there fetlocks when there at a full gallop" they pull up pretty sore after 1 or 2 miles of galloping doing that but i doubt you would of ever noticed that watching horses being ridden around in a ring in a ft off saw dust or sand, :yes:know can you tell me rick were i can find the literature on fitting the hind shoes in natural Balance shoeing, i cant seem to find it on the internet any book for that matter ? & you haven't happen to find those photos of those wild horses from genes study, would love to see the proof of the shape of those hooves that proved his hypothesis, ill do you a deal, ill find the cry tec literature and post it & you can see its almost word for word of that of NB, if you chase up those photos, I'm sure every one would love conformation that theses wild horses hooves exist & not just rely on testimonials, because i had this friend once who bought a hairpiece after reading a heap of testimonials in a popular mag , that it would look like & feel like his natural hair, poor guy walked round with what looked to be a stinking dead rat on his head for years, he new it wasn't the real deal when he first open the box, but thought i payed so much money out ill just were it round & maybe no one will notice its not the real deal :eek:

tarynls
Dec. 24, 2007, 01:14 AM
High Blood Pressure

George


The above is your response to Deltawave's post: "Hold on there. I defy you to name ONE condition, other than hemochromatosis for which the therapy of "bloodletting" has been recommended for A CENTURY, where bloodletting is "making a comeback"."


Is hypertension your reason for bloodletting? Just curious.......or confused.


FYI, human blood pressure cuffs are NOT put on the leg of the equine. There is an artery on the underside of the base of the dock of the equine tail. I have yet to see a tail that is larger in diameter than a human arm. These cuffs come in various sizes, from "neonatal" (used for foals) all the way up to "large". I have never had to use a "large" human cuff on an equine tail. Generally the "regular" cuff fits just fine - even on draft horses. The readings are quite accurate as well.

matryoshka
Dec. 24, 2007, 01:35 AM
J Swan, you might find this type of thread more interesting if you trimmed or shod horses for a living. One hopes your farrier is already well aware of the various debates going on about trimming and shoeing protocols. Nobody is saying your horses are miserable. Jack seems to be on a tear to stir up some discussion over various methods out there. Near as I can tell, no data is being discussed, just opinions. Not particularly useful unless one hasn't heard these arguments before.

Good forging is not the same as doing a good job shoeing. I could learn to forge rather easily, since I already sculpt and have worked extensively with metal. I can also shape shoes just fine, cold or hot. However, if the trim isn't right for the horse and his conformation, then it doesn't matter how well made, well fitted, or how pretty the nails are lined up and clinched. The horse will be shod just as poorly as if they were nailed on by someone with lesser forge skills.

A local farrier followed the toes out on a pony because he didn't think he should bring the toe back to where it belonged. An 11 hand pony ended up with 5-inch long toes that were turned up, and he still couldn't figure out how to fix it. Putting the breakover where it should be is not "dumping" or "dubbing," however you want to label it. It is giving the horse the mechanical breakover his leg needs. Then in most cases, the hoof grows in closer to the coffin bone and no longer looks dubbed when the hoof grows all the way out. In my meager 3 years of trimming, I've seen this happen many times. Then the feet wear better and need to be trimmed less often as long as there aren't significan limb deviations.

jack mac
Dec. 24, 2007, 04:02 AM
Yes, Scott Morrison at Rood and Riddle has been doing research re: maggot debridement therapy. However, if you reference the Hoofcare and Lameness article (Issue 78, from around October 2004), here:
http://www.hoofcare.com/article_pdf/HoofcareMaggotsMorrison.pdf
Dr. Donald Walsh (from Rood & Riddle's equine podiatry center), states he had a foundered horse (all 4 hooves were affected) in June 2003 that he successfully used maggots to debride dead tissue in the horse's hooves.

There is also a reference to an article published by Janet Hinshaw, DVM in Worldwide Wounds. Her article is titled "Larval Therapy: A Review of Clinical Human and Veterinary Studies" if anyone would like to research this topic further.

Hope this may help someone.

I would be interested (along with Deltawave) in reading any current papers as to why "bloodletting" would be beneficial to a horse with hypertension (high blood pressure). My education leads me to believe that this was done in animals with an iron overload in their bloodstream (hemochromatosis).

jack mac, are you a vet? In my state, venipuncture (ie. puncturing the jugular vein) is a veterinary procedure, thus, to be performed by a veterinarian only. Do you have a veterinarian "drain" 4-5 GALLONS of blood? In these parts, couldn't find a vet to perform such an archaic procedure.

Actually, you may want to reference "Artistic Horseshoeing" by Prof. George E. Rich, reprint published in 1907. In the "Founder" section (page 140), he advocates "bleed from the neck vein 3-4 gallons, or until he falls, then give the following: 1/2 ounce of aloes, 4 drachmas gamboge, 1/2 ounce of oil of sassafras; make this into a pill, give it, and give him all the sassafras tea he will drink; turn up his feet and fill them full of boiling hot lard, bathe his legs in hot water and rub them well. This will never fail to cure in 48 hours."

Are you truly following advice from over 100 years ago?

Just curious :) No its just a hobby of mine to bleed foundering horses , but some times truth is stranger than fiction lol most vets that i know of who practice it, would never admit to doing it fearing ridicule as they dont know why it works it just does, bleeding does work i have see the results in it arresting the lamina from excessive exhilarated growth & swelling of the pedal causing the pedal bone to be forced downwards due to lack of room in the hoof capsule:) PS if you dont want to bleed then the sooner you get a diuretic in to the horse with electrolytes in his drinking water the better if he doesn't want to drink then tube him & dont stand his hoofs in water as all the books tell you to, it is the worse thing to do it only serves to soften the sole & allows the pedal bone to drop easy & faster you need to keep the hoof dry contain the bone as best you can till the attack subsides there will be tissue die off in side the capsule & the sole may even drop out after a week or two exposing the bone it is important if this occurred to try to maintain the periosteum the more damage the less likely the pedal bone will survive demineralisation & infection taking place :)

Rick Burten
Dec. 24, 2007, 06:10 AM
Cytek, NB the literature is identical same rave about the wild horses having different hooves's same concept of sitting shoes over soles boxing feet & dumping two's ,think i still have a copy of it some were, id have to go though my old files,
Jack,
It is apparent that you haven't got a clue because you are blinded by your own intransigence.

You are steeped in "daddydiditthataway" and have shown no inclination to even want to move forward. Fair enough.

i dont know who riped who off
Yes, you do. Why? Because I told you so and , should it actually become necessary, I can back up my statement.(we can start with the fact that Cytek didn't come into existance until 1997 and NB/EDSS pre -dates that by several years.)

but cytek ran & started there farrier training accreditations 6-7 years ago the same people that flogging dead horse are know flogging the NB rave its the same tar just calling the brush something fancier & a steel shoe instead of a cast one.
Like I said, the two have little in common and your continued rants to the contrary won't change that fact.

Happy_Hooves
Dec. 24, 2007, 06:15 AM
Hey guys jack mac is just a bitter individual looking to stir up controversy. For some reason he and lots of others find those who shoe with other than the "Don't touch the heel and knife away as much of the toe as you can" school of thought a threat to horses soundness, a cause of global warming, and destabilising to the mideast and injurious to our children's morals. So the go to horse forums to passionatly fight back this scourge upon our horses feet and to truth justice and all things civilized.

Jack if you really want to learn about this get with a farrier who is certified by Gene to apply these protocols correctly. In fact why don't you come visit with me. Maine is a wonderful place to visit and I have a guest room. Do you like to Ski?

Rick Burten
Dec. 24, 2007, 06:18 AM
Corsets are hot, I like them and so does my gf,
And I bet you look hot, hot, hot in one. :eek:

bloodletting has been proven to be effective in some circumstances and is making a comeback
Really? I bet George Washington would disagree. And, what instances is blood letting becoming de rigeur? Other than perhaps in instances where pressure must be relieved.

Arranged marriage, well perhaps thats not a bad idea either. Our disgracefully high divorce rate is pretty conclusive proof that many people don't make wise decisions on their own in that area either.
And you somehow think that "marriage by third party" is going to somehow lower the divorce rate or create more stable marriages? If so, then you'll most likely also be interested in some beach front property I have for sale.

Rick Burten
Dec. 24, 2007, 06:42 AM
I dont care whether its from the top or bottom its dumping you have just given it a nice caring tag
Obviously there is a comprehension problem here. And, where do you stand on the AFA's position on wall dressing?

& landing heels first in the hind feet well that's caused from to lowering the heels to much & not enough toe,
Riiiight.

you wouldn't be shoeing race horses for long rick they call that hyperextending when the heels hit first & most times get down on there bumpers, "hitting the backs of there fetlocks when there at a full gallop" they pull up pretty sore after 1 or 2 miles of galloping doing that [
Given your knowledge base and practical application procedures,I'm amazed that anyone lets you near a horse in the first place. But hey, if one of yours starts to interfere, all you have to do is jug him till he's too weak to stride out. Practical farriery! Gotta love it.

know can you tell me rick were i can find the literature on fitting the hind shoes in natural Balance shoeing, i cant seem to find it on the internet any book for that matter ? & you haven't happen to find those photos of those wild horses from genes study, would love to see the proof of the shape of those hooves that proved his hypothesis,
Go straight to the source and ask.

"If you have any questions that are not answered on this page, please feel free to contact us by E-mail(edssinc@nbhoofcare.com, phone: (719) 372-SHOE {7463}, fax: (719) 372-7272, or write us at: Equine Digit Support System, Inc., 506 Hwy 115, Penrose, Colorado 81240, USA."

ill do you a deal, ill find the cry tec literature and post it & you can see its almost word for word of that of NB, if you chase up those photos, I'm sure every one would love conformation that theses wild horses hooves exist & not just rely on testimonials,
As I already have the cytek literature, you'll have to sweeten the pot.

Besides, since the Cytek (ahem)"system" is a blatent rip off of NB protocols, I would expect that there literature would attempt to mimic the work, especially the early work, done by Gene Ovnicek, et al. But, like most rip-offs, its quite substandard and IMNTBCHO, is more parasitic than anything else.

Rick Burten
Dec. 24, 2007, 06:53 AM
No its just a hobby of mine to bleed foundering horses ,
Well, everyone needs a hobby.

but some times truth is stranger than fiction lol most vets that i know of who practice it, would never admit to doing it fearing ridicule
Go figure......

as they dont know why it works it just does,
Bet they'd be real interested to learn of your high opinion of them and their knowledge base.

bleeding does work i have see the results in it arresting the lamina from excessive exhilarated growth & swelling of the pedal causing the pedal bone to be forced downwards due to lack of room in the hoof capsule:)
Got anything in writing or pictorial form that would substantiate your belief? Ever written a paper on the subject that you submitted for publication in a veterinary or farrier peer reviewed magazine? Ever been asked to lecture on the subject? Ever taught this concept in a scholastic setting?

PS if you dont want to bleed then the sooner you get a diuretic in to the horse with electrolytes in his drinking water the better if he doesn't want to drink then tube him & dont stand his hoofs in water as all the books tell you to,
So how do you feel about Pollitt's suggestion that when laminitis/founder is in its earliest stages, standing the horse in buckets of ice has been shown to help reduce the level of acuteness?

(exposing the bone )it is important if this occurred to try to maintain the periosteum
And how, precisely, does one accomplish that?

JB
Dec. 24, 2007, 09:11 AM
You need biotin. Or manganese. Or magnesium. Or chromium. Or SOMETHING...clearly something is missing. :lol: This should not happen to a normal nail if you cared for your fingers properly. Have you considered changing your diet? More turnout? New saddle? Magnets?

Woman, have you not been paying attention? She needs COPPER! Sheesh... :winkgrin::winkgrin:


what your forgetting Katy is time, founder will improve over it if there isn't anther attack as some one who purports to be some what of an authority on founder should know,
Pray tell, how will founder improve over time if there isn't another attack. Magically?? Besides, you totally missed the point of Katy's story. The farrier chased toes and heels forward - didn't mean squat what kind of shoes he had on the horse, he obviously couldn't trim.

Since you seem to not be quite up on Katy, she's quite the expert on what causes laminitis. She isn't, nor has ever proclaimed to be any expert on founder.

JSwan
Dec. 24, 2007, 09:20 AM
J Swan, you might find this type of thread more interesting if you trimmed or shod horses for a living. One hopes your farrier is already well aware of the various debates going on about trimming and shoeing protocols. Nobody is saying your horses are miserable. Jack seems to be on a tear to stir up some discussion over various methods out there. Near as I can tell, no data is being discussed, just opinions. Not particularly useful unless one hasn't heard these arguments before.


The Free Horse was fixed up using the NB trim. Though I don't trim or shoe for a living, I am always interested in these methods, and how a particular method might suit an individual horse - for whatever reason. It's part and parcel of being a good horseman - which I strive to be.

I agree with you - this is just a catfight. I'll peek in from time to time to see if folks are still arguing over magnets and maggots and neuroses and stuff - just in case anything substantive gets posted.

I've read nothing that would make me change my mind though. It's what works for the individual horse.

deltawave
Dec. 24, 2007, 09:36 AM
High Blood Pressure
Oh, NONSENSE. I've been practicing medicine and critical care/cardiology for 15+ years and have never, ever, even ONCE seen, heard of, or recommended phlebotomy for hypertension. Yes, 100 years ago when we didn't have drugs it was used for fulminant heart failure to the detriment of the patient but would be considered tantamount to assault, malpractice, and criminal to do so today.

As to what is done with/to horses, I can't comment. The original statement of "medicinal bloodletting" implied HUMAN medicine, if I'm not mistaken.

If we're trying to dredge up ancient medical/technical/farriery practices from the 19th century to defend what we are doing or what we know today, we are on the WRONG ROAD. Science needs to PRIDE ITSELF on cheerfully waving good-bye to what has been proven, as time passes, to have been DEAD WRONG. The list of examples I could cite that is only TWENTY years old would take me an hour to type. Do we cringe and wring our hands over what we USED to think was correct? No, we grow, we learn, we evolve, and we accept the fact that in ANOTHER twenty years "today's" thinking will also be somewhat obsolete. :)

Lookout
Dec. 24, 2007, 10:08 AM
Not much, is just a matter of drilling holes. Similar to what you do if you smash a finger and have blood under the nail. If you were to burn or drill a small hole in the nail letting out the trapped blood it relieves the pressure and feels much better. Very likely saving the nail.

Is essentially doing the same thing to a horse. Some drill one hole, some drill several in a pattern. I've heard that the blood shoots out like a geyser for a few seconds and then the horse walks off sound.

Never having done it I find it real interesting and wish some more research and or experimentation could be done in this area.
George

No kidding. IOW it's not 'bloodletting' because it doesn't puncture a blood vessel, just relieves pressure (possibly), of accumulated serosanguinous wound secretion.
Sorry not to be mortified by the 'bloodletting', Jack.

JHUshoer20
Dec. 24, 2007, 10:21 AM
Oh, NONSENSE. I've been practicing medicine and critical care/cardiology for 15+ years and have never, ever, even ONCE seen, heard of, or recommended phlebotomy for hypertension. Yes, 100 years ago when we didn't have drugs it was used for fulminant heart failure to the detriment of the patient but would be considered tantamount to assault, malpractice, and criminal to do so today.

As to what is done with/to horses, I can't comment. The original statement of "medicinal bloodletting" implied HUMAN medicine, if I'm not mistaken.
And you havent seen the latest use of leeches for plastic surgery? Geez it was on Discovery channel!

As to horses why are we still doing such veterinary malpractice as blistering and pinfiring then?:sadsmile: I too would like to see that go away but I'm still waiting.
George

JHUshoer20
Dec. 24, 2007, 10:28 AM
No kidding. IOW it's not 'bloodletting' because it doesn't puncture a blood vessel, just relieves pressure (possibly), of accumulated serosanguinous wound secretion.
Sorry not to be mortified by the 'bloodletting', Jack.
Here is a thread we had over on horseshoes some time ago about this. You might find it interesting. http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2887
George

deltawave
Dec. 24, 2007, 10:40 AM
I said NOTHING about leeches. We use genetically-engineered leech saliva derivatives (fondly known as "slug slobber") on a daily basis as a blood thinner. Great stuff. :)

As to pinfiring, etc...I, too, would love to see these (mal)practices disappear. But as a neurologist friend is fond of saying, (one of my favorite quotes ever) "that's not my organ". And in this case, it's not even my SPECIES. :D

Tom Stovall
Dec. 24, 2007, 10:43 AM
deltawave in gray, deletia

If we're trying to dredge up ancient medical/technical/farriery practices from the 19th century to defend what we are doing or what we know today, we are on the WRONG ROAD. Science needs to PRIDE ITSELF on cheerfully waving good-bye to what has been proven, as time passes, to have been DEAD WRONG. The list of examples I could cite that is only TWENTY years old would take me an hour to type. Do we cringe and wring our hands over what we USED to think was correct? No, we grow, we learn, we evolve, and we accept the fact that in ANOTHER twenty years "today's" thinking will also be somewhat obsolete. :)

Words to live by!

On the subject of bloodletting, there is sometimes a time and place for it in the treatment of acute (aka, "hot") founders. Since rotation of the distal phalanx often causes the introduction of uncontained fluids into the hoof capsule and is abetted by the hydraulic action of those fluids, positive mechanical stabilization (Chapman's apexal frog pressure) on acutes is usually contraindicated unless some form of pressure relief is provided. Most often, the bone is stabilized due to less positive, indirect pressure on the sole and frog (e.g., Styrofoam, Lily Pads, soft polymers, etc.); however, more aggressive treatment can sometimes result in less rotation and quicker recovery by reducing the role of fluids in rotation. In my experience, the procedure consists of two 3/8" holes drilled just through the dorsal stratum internum (hopefully, not into the dorsum of the distal phalanx), and the results can be somewhat spectacular. When the horse is moved after the holes are drilled, the first couple of steps often spurt blood chest high or higher when the hoof is loaded, with a reduction in height and volume each step thereafter. Concurrently, the horse's level of pain appears to be diminished with each step, an observation that suggests the role of hydraulics in founder has not been fully explored.

deltawave
Dec. 24, 2007, 10:48 AM
That is not "bloodletting" as I understand the term. Venesection or therapeutic phlebotomy was what I was referring to: removing blood from the VESSELS for whatever purpose.

What you're describing sounds an awful lot like drilling a finger or toenail upon which one has dropped a can of paint (ask me how I know this is excruciatingly painful!) and the pressure from the subungual hematoma needs relief. INSTANT relief, as a matter of fact. Whew! :eek:

Relief of pressure in a confined space is only very rarely a bad thing. I can think of only one or two instances where this would be a BAD idea in humans, but we don't call this "bloodletting" in the traditional sense. :)

BTW, what an interesting side discussion! :lol:

Ghazzu
Dec. 24, 2007, 10:59 AM
I'll cop to having "bled" a horse's ting points in a laminitis case (with a couple of 25 ga needles in each heel).

It was on a good friend's horse, right after I'd returned from the first session of the IVAS course.

We were both amazed at the almost immediate increase in his comfort level.

alas, it was not a cure, ultimately, but it did make him considerably more comfortable in the short term.

Ghazzu
Dec. 24, 2007, 11:07 AM
Hate to tell you this but i still bleed them when there foundering ,take approx 4-5 galleons out of them via the jugular & have had grate results, a hell of a lot better than any one who advocated it was nonsense ;)

I'd be a bit surprised if anyone deliberately drained approximately half a horse's circulating blood volume as a therapeutic measure.

Although I always thought a galleon was a marine vessel.

deltawave
Dec. 24, 2007, 11:38 AM
No, a galleon is a monetary unit in Harry Potter's world, I think. Maybe that is what jack mac charges for his services? :lol: Not a bad price, considering. ;)

I've seen people bleed out half their blood volume and the results were far from "grate", although yeah, they didn't complain that their feet hurt. :p

Rick Burten
Dec. 24, 2007, 12:25 PM
And you havent seen the latest use of leeches for plastic surgery? Geez it was on Discovery channel!
Or maggots for debriding gangrenous lower limbs. But that is some different than opening a spit-cock and letting gallons of blood pour out.

As to horses why are we still doing such veterinary malpractice as blistering and pinfiring then?:sadsmile:
(with apologies to A. Einstein), because, unlike genius, stupidity knows no limits.

I too would like to see that go away but I'm still waiting.
George
What's your point. Its wrong. You know its wrong, we know its wrong, but there are enough people out there who haven't got the message and continue to employ barbarity wrapped in ignorance on a daily basis.

Rick Burten
Dec. 24, 2007, 12:31 PM
Tom,

Correct me if I am wrong, but what you are describing is some what different that opening a vein and letting blood drain out. I have employed the very technique you describe with much the same results, but what Jack is describing is a whole 'nuther kettle of fish.

Rick Burten
Dec. 24, 2007, 12:37 PM
Here is a thread we had over on horseshoes some time ago about this. You might find it interesting. http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2887
George
Of interest in that thread is the following quote from Dr. Meyers, DVM

"Cm'on guys, you are talking about ancient "remedies" that probably killed many more horses than they helped. The problem with most of these old remedies are the same as many of the herbal and other "alternative" remedies. They shout out the occasional success, but never say a word about any failures. We all know that here is no remedy that is 100% successful short of euthanasia ( and I have heard of botched tries at that as well).
We need to step back and use a bit more common sense. We have a wealth of technology that is often overlooked or deliberately ignored. We have tested remedies and we have remedies that are based in sound anatomy, physiology and biomechanics. Let's give them a try before we jump back to frog's eyes and bat wing broth."

deltawave
Dec. 24, 2007, 12:45 PM
Hallelujah and AMEN. :yes:

longview_bc
Dec. 24, 2007, 01:23 PM
:yes:you have hit the nail on the head, most cant even alter a machine made shoe let alone make one, sad but true.

Hi all,

So I'll ask again lets see the proof that you can.

Kevin

longview_bc
Dec. 24, 2007, 01:31 PM
Hate to tell you this but i still bleed them when there foundering ,take approx 4-5 galleons out of them via the jugular & have had grate results, a hell of a lot better than any one who advocated it was nonsense ;)

Hi all,

Ya sure you do. So is it 4 or is it 5 and do you realize a 10 gallon hat really won't hold 10 gallons. Oh and does this blood letting explain your claims that you have shot a thousand horses. Bla bla bla.

Kevin

Roisin
Dec. 24, 2007, 01:35 PM
deltawave - knock it off! My back went out and laughing hurts right now!! And I keep flashing back to that SNL skit with Steve Martin as the "Medieval Barber".

LarkspurCO
Dec. 24, 2007, 01:37 PM
Hate to tell you this but i still bleed them when there foundering ,take approx 4-5 galleons out of them via the jugular & have had grate results, a hell of a lot better than any one who advocated it was nonsense ;)

So, do you take it home to your family and drink it?

longview_bc
Dec. 24, 2007, 01:39 PM
I dont care whether its from the top or bottom its dumping you have just given it a nice caring tag , & landing heels first in the hind feet well that's caused from to lowering the heels to much & not enough toe, you wouldn't be shoeing race horses for long rick they call that hyperextending when the heels hit first & most times get down on there bumpers, "hitting the backs of there fetlocks when there at a full gallop" they pull up pretty sore after 1 or 2 miles of galloping doing that but i doubt you would of ever noticed that watching horses being ridden around in a ring in a ft off saw dust or sand, :yes:know can you tell me rick were i can find the literature on fitting the hind shoes in natural Balance shoeing, i cant seem to find it on the internet any book for that matter ? & you haven't happen to find those photos of those wild horses from genes study, would love to see the proof of the shape of those hooves that proved his hypothesis, ill do you a deal, ill find the cry tec literature and post it & you can see its almost word for word of that of NB, if you chase up those photos, I'm sure every one would love conformation that theses wild horses hooves exist & not just rely on testimonials, because i had this friend once who bought a hairpiece after reading a heap of testimonials in a popular mag , that it would look like & feel like his natural hair, poor guy walked round with what looked to be a stinking dead rat on his head for years, he new it wasn't the real deal when he first open the box, but thought i payed so much money out ill just were it round & maybe no one will notice its not the real deal :eek:

Hi all,

Jacko,

It seems funny to me that you ask for proof, studies and pictures for something thats commen place when you have been asked point blank to supply supplimentary proof of your wild claims and have provided zilch.

Kevin

longview_bc
Dec. 24, 2007, 01:55 PM
No its just a hobby of mine to bleed foundering horses , but some times truth is stranger than fiction lol most vets that i know of who practice it, would never admit to doing it fearing ridicule as they dont know why it works it just does, bleeding does work i have see the results in it arresting the lamina from excessive exhilarated growth & swelling of the pedal causing the pedal bone to be forced downwards due to lack of room in the hoof capsule:) PS if you dont want to bleed then the sooner you get a diuretic in to the horse with electrolytes in his drinking water the better if he doesn't want to drink then tube him & dont stand his hoofs in water as all the books tell you to, it is the worse thing to do it only serves to soften the sole & allows the pedal bone to drop easy & faster you need to keep the hoof dry contain the bone as best you can till the attack subsides there will be tissue die off in side the capsule & the sole may even drop out after a week or two exposing the bone it is important if this occurred to try to maintain the periosteum the more damage the less likely the pedal bone will survive demineralisation & infection taking place :)

Hi all again,

Jacko,

And you know all this how, from the x rays you have taken before and after. If your going to make these claims maybe a little more info should be forth coming. Oh and my god do you ever read over the things you say.

Kevin

deltawave
Dec. 24, 2007, 02:09 PM
I missed the "exhilarated growth and swelling" part. Sounds kind of kinky. :D

matryoshka
Dec. 24, 2007, 02:17 PM
I seem to remember an anectode in All Creatures Great and Small where the main vet (Farnon) bled a gypsy pony that had acute laminitis. After the blood letting he had the kids stand the pony in a stream, walk it, stand it in a stream, etc until it improved. Assuming the story is true in its treatment details, it worked, but that doesn't mean one should do it every time. The procedure was performed by a vet that thought the only other option was euthanasia, so it was a treatment of last resort for people who couldn't afford or adopt the usual practices in getting a horse through such an acute case.

Nowadays there are more options, better meds, and (one hopes) farriers who are able to do more to help keep the coffin bone from rotating further. There are now treatment options out there because of all the research and the improvements in our knowledge base. Hurrah for advancements in medical science and those that brave criticism in order to find better solutions!!

Jack, if you truly are bleeding horses in the treatment of acute laminitis, you are performing veterinary procedures and are opening yourself up to law suits. Are you trying to revive the old meaning of "farrier," where they were people who practiced psuedo veterinary "medicine" in the treatment of horse ailments?

This is an interesting discussion. Can we keep the personal insults out so the moderator doesn't shut down the thread?

jack mac
Dec. 24, 2007, 02:29 PM
Hi all again,

Jacko,

And you know all this how, from the x rays you have taken before and after. If your going to make these claims maybe a little more info should be forth coming. Oh and my god do you ever read over the things you say.

Kevin I haven't found one photo on the Internet of any wild mustangs hooves that resemble anything remotely like a NB shoe, so I'm kind of thinking there's something a little fishy about the whole wild horse study, so if you could just post a few photos of these wild horses hooves that supports that shape shoe being used it will make all the differents, hell i think if i was shoeing NB id want to see the proof.

JB
Dec. 24, 2007, 02:33 PM
And you havent seen the latest use of leeches for plastic surgery? Geez it was on Discovery channel!
Using medical sterilize leeches is hardly on the same plane as the bloodletting you're speaking of.


As to horses why are we still doing such veterinary malpractice as blistering and pinfiring then?

Pinfiring, I'll agree, is pretty much useless and barbaric. But would you kindly explain why blistering has no place in today's world? All aspects of it, please. Would you go straight to cutting or slicing the patellar ligament to resolve a locking stifle, or would you try an internal blister first?

Tom Stovall
Dec. 24, 2007, 02:35 PM
hoofrx1 in gray

Correct me if I am wrong, but what you are describing is some what different that opening a vein and letting blood drain out.

Much different.

I have employed the very technique you describe with much the same results, but what Jack is describing is a whole 'nuther kettle of fish.

I shoulda been more explicit. What I had in mind was draining the "loose" blood that accumulates between the dorsum of P3 and the proximal wall during rotation, not tapping into some big vessel with a 12 gauge. :)

In my notes, Chapman mentions spontaneous rupture of portions of the coronary band after he applied 1 cm indent apexal frog pressure without pressure relief - a phenomenon that probably discouraged further experimentation using similar frog pressure on similar presentations WITH pressure relief. I often think we've thrown out the baby with the bath water when it comes to treating hot founders and that further experimentation with more aggressive stabilization procedures with pressure relief is warranted.

goeslikestink
Dec. 24, 2007, 02:38 PM
Tom,

Correct me if I am wrong, but what you are describing is some what different that opening a vein and letting blood drain out. I have employed the very technique you describe with much the same results, but what Jack is describing is a whole 'nuther kettle of fish.

thats the way i read it to

goeslikestink
Dec. 24, 2007, 02:42 PM
I missed the "exhilarated growth and swelling" part. Sounds kind of kinky. :D

deltawave -- you just to funny i just spilt my coffee

Melelio
Dec. 24, 2007, 02:47 PM
I seem to remember an anecdote in All Creatures Great and Small where the main vet (Farnon) bled a gypsy pony that had acute laminitis. After the blood letting he had the kids stand the pony in a stream, walk it, stand it in a stream, etc until it improved. Assuming the story is true in its treatment details, it worked,

I wonder if it worked simply as a lessening of the volume of blood pressing down into the feet, as it was no longer circulating? Like sucking the last of the milkshake up the straw, the straw is no longer full but still getting some liquid. Kind of interesting thought, but obviously only a temporary solution since the body replaces that blood. I don't know as how I'd want it done to mine unless it could be proven time and time again.

deltawave
Dec. 24, 2007, 03:03 PM
I read in "Black Beauty" where they used to do all sorts of dreadful things to horses, too.

Are we know using fictionalized horse stories as scientific references? Oy VEY.

Much as I love the "All Creatures...." series, people, that kind of medicine is BARBARIC by today's standards. All of this fond remembrance of the "great methods" of the old days is NUTS when you are talking about medicine. Only a loony tune would use 1930's technology in this day and age.

goeslikestink
Dec. 24, 2007, 03:05 PM
I missed the "exhilarated growth and swelling" part. Sounds kind of kinky. :D


I haven't found one photo on the Internet of any wild mustangs hooves that resemble anything remotely like a NB shoe, so I'm kind of thinking there's something a little fishy about the whole wild horse study, so if you could just post a few photos of these wild horses hooves that supports that shape shoe being used it will make all the differents, hell i think if i was shoeing NB id want to see the proof.

maybe its because they wild-- doh


and like delta says you in the wrong time zone the farriers have move on since then 19th century and so as everyone else- and everything else

for exsample in the 19th century they sent little ham the monkey to the moon
since then- we have found out alot more about how our earth is
along with all types of science and industries have improved somewhat thanks to little ham
beucase he survied the trip and went on to live well

and just as deltawave another 20yrs and will know far more and it will be harder and harder to get into one perticular industry as you would have to know all facts etc to enter

te farriers that are qualified and the industries or associations that support them
ie vetinary and farriers associations etc do constantly up date and keep pace with proven
facts and science and new teniques along with new tecniqual equipement and so on- these cluster of people such as rick and tom s and many more are the foundations of a true course of action having the expreince and pratical exprience be it written practice or tuaght- they are artist in the compassion and passion
for whats right for the horse - the horses welfare being top priority
and you are getting loads of information for free--
and in truth not many english farriers would give so much knowledge out unless you paid for it
as really and truthfully you should learn it and become a full fledge farrier and spend the correct amount of time on a farriers course which isnt 1week of clinics or 1 month or 1year here in uk its 4/5yrs then you pass a final exam before you even allowed out on your own and you have to be goverment reigistered by defra-
so here only qualifed farrier can shoe or trim the horse being that rick and tom s
and many others that i know but to many to name are with AFA etc
then they to have the same rules and code of conduct as the english ones -- so

what do i think of you jack man

i think you talking a load of rubbish - as in decays ago or putting it another way
you say you heard or i cant find etc this is 3rd hand knowledge -- its a bit like chinese whispers it gets distorted along the way-- as we here are third lot of people
becuase you heard it from someone else r saw it or read it--as hearsay




pin firing and blistering is illegal in uk has been for yonks

jack mac
Dec. 24, 2007, 03:16 PM
As much as people think drilling holes & draining blood is a nonsense in treating conditions, if you had a head injure & your brain was swelling & pressing on the skull, the first thing that would be done is to lower your blood pressure & a hole would be drilled in to your scull to relieve the trapped pressure , if that didnt work & the brain continued swelling they would then remove part of your skull to make room till the brain swelling reduced, you would be placed in a coma with your body temperature lowered, sound a bit macabre!! dame right but its the only way to save your life .

JHUshoer20
Dec. 24, 2007, 03:22 PM
Pinfiring, I'll agree, is pretty much useless and barbaric. But would you kindly explain why blistering has no place in today's world? All aspects of it, please. Would you go straight to cutting or slicing the patellar ligament to resolve a locking stifle, or would you try an internal blister first?
Blistering is nothing more than applying a counterirritant, usually of a caustic nature to an injury. Pinfiring is a more extreme form but oftentimes a blister is applied over a fresh firing as well. Are both variations of the same foolishness.

Theory behind such malpractice is that by sending MORE pain, inflammation, swelling etc to an injured area that it will heal faster and/or better. The only real defense the vets can offer up for this prostituting of their profession is that it forces a trainer to rest the horse. Unfortunately rest is often a dirty four letter word with many competitors but time after time it's been proven that just the rest will work better than all these counterirritants.

Question for you JB being as that you seem to be familiar with human medicine is why is this BS not done on people?

As to cutting a patellar ligament for treatment of a stifled horse, thats to my understanding the way that's dealt with. I however wouldn't make that call as it's above the hairline and above my pay grade.
George

deltawave
Dec. 24, 2007, 03:25 PM
What has head trauma got to do with horseshoeing? :confused:

goeslikestink
Dec. 24, 2007, 03:32 PM
As much as people think drilling holes & draining blood is a nonsense in treating conditions, if you had a head injure & your brain was swelling & pressing on the skull, the first thing that would be done is to lower your blood pressure & a hole would be drilled in to your scull to relieve the trapped pressure , if that didnt work & the brain continued swelling they would then remove part of your skull to make room till the brain swelling reduced, you would be placed in a coma with your body temperature lowered, sound a bit macabre!! dame right but its the only way to save your life .

you contridicted yourself you know that as deltaware pointed that out

we all know that we arnt saaying it some cases you can and have to with pressure points as thats what it is like a black finger pinch - stuff needle in it releives it same to with a human blister- pop it pains gone-- we all know that theory


but it isnt what you stated on the orignal postings

you cant go about saying one thing then change it
that just makes you look silly


theres an old saying since you like 19th century stuff
its ok for people to make mistakes we all do it and if some says no i dont then they have not learnt the true meaning of a mistake

mistakes are ok as long as we learn by the mistake-
think you be wise to ealrn of those that have given you expert opnions based on truths and proven facts

goeslikestink
Dec. 24, 2007, 03:34 PM
Blistering is nothing more than applying a counterirritant, usually of a caustic nature to an injury. Pinfiring is a more extreme form but oftentimes a blister is applied over a fresh firing as well. Are both variations of the same foolishness.

Theory behind such malpractice is that by sending MORE pain, inflammation, swelling etc to an injured area that it will heal faster and/or better. The only real defense the vets can offer up for this prostituting of their profession is that it forces a trainer to rest the horse. Unfortunately rest is often a dirty four letter word with many competitors but time after time it's been proven that just the rest will work better than all these counterirritants.

Question for you JB being as that you seem to be familiar with human medicine is why is this BS not done on people?

As to cutting a patellar ligament for treatment of a stifled horse, thats to my understanding the way that's dealt with. I however wouldn't make that call as it's above the hairline and above my pay grade.
George


as isaid its illegal to do or practice it in uk as it is barbaric and doesnt solve the cuase of the problem only hides it -- and the horse is the one that suffers by these painful methods that dont heal up over night and scars them for life not just on there bodies buy in there minds

jack mac
Dec. 24, 2007, 03:35 PM
The quickest way to lower blood pressure & body temperature in a horse with out causing heart problems, is to remove a measured amount of blood, some times its the simple things in life that are often the best, as they are less complicated to manage.

jack mac
Dec. 24, 2007, 03:50 PM
What has head trauma got to do with horseshoeing? :confused:It was just one example i thought every one could envisige & get there head round, macabre unpleasant things have to be employed sometimes if you want to save a life.

jack mac
Dec. 24, 2007, 03:58 PM
you contridicted yourself you know that as deltaware pointed that out

we all know that we arnt saaying it some cases you can and have to with pressure points as thats what it is like a black finger pinch - stuff needle in it releives it same to with a human blister- pop it pains gone-- we all know that theory


but it isnt what you stated on the orignal postings

you cant go about saying one thing then change it
that just makes you look silly


theres an old saying since you like 19th century stuff
its ok for people to make mistakes we all do it and if some says no i dont then they have not learnt the true meaning of a mistake

mistakes are ok as long as we learn by the mistake-
think you be wise to ealrn of those that have given you expert opnions based on truths and proven facts In what way-part did i contradict my self ?

goeslikestink
Dec. 24, 2007, 04:09 PM
The quickest way to lower blood pressure & body temperature in a horse with out causing heart problems, is to remove a measured amount of blood, some times its the simple things in life that are often the best, as they are less complicated to manage.

dont agree-- as the average horse owner has to wait for a vet to come out to do a quick diagnoise and they dont always take blood it depends on what wrong with the horse
blood is only taken if serious decease but not in a general call

and a good horse person would know how to lower the trempreture long enough to get to a vet or vet to the horse they are not understand allowed here in uk to adminster anything
that is medicational wise to a horse so as a general learning in bhs horse management which is also governed by defra- we are taught basic skills for an emergency

the more advanced professional owners like myself would control the tempreture long enough for vets to response to- ourscome out day or night within 5mins of calling
vets can get to my yard in 10mins and less


curious sir - you talking humans not horses so i have a question for you if you so expreince as you say - or think then please tell me -- some things

please other people dont answer if you know as if hes as good as he says he is he should know

|1-- what is a horses tempreture
2- how many breaths per minute in normally breathing should a horse take
3- and since you like blood what does the red blood cell do
4 whats in a blood red cell asi whats it carry
5 how many red cells to a white cell are there in a horse

basic questions

deltawave
Dec. 24, 2007, 04:43 PM
Phooey, there is nothing macabre or unpleasant about saving a life using proven methods that have withstood the rigors of research and clinical trials. Your outdated methods and thinking belong in a museum, not in the modern pantheon. Why would you want to lower a horse's body temperature and blood pressure by bleeding it when there are drugs that do a fine job of both? Assuming that lowering the BP and temperature are even something you'd WANT to do.

It's like saying a horse and buggy is a perfectly fine way of getting to the supermarket...SURE it is, but there are better means in this, the 21st century. :)

RAyers
Dec. 24, 2007, 04:53 PM
The quickest way to lower blood pressure & body temperature in a horse with out causing heart problems, is to remove a measured amount of blood, some times its the simple things in life that are often the best, as they are less complicated to manage.

Good god, if this is what you honestly believe, and think that it causes no harm, you must be the Jack Kevorkian of horses.

Large blood loss as you are advocating causes huge problems. I am amazed that you will argue a fallacy in front of experts in the field and still be unwilling to provide any sort of proof of your convictions. Your ignorance is only outweighed by your spelling and grammar.

Signed,

Theodoric of York, Medieval Barber

jack mac
Dec. 24, 2007, 04:57 PM
The problem i have with the NB crew, is that none of them have bothered to take a good hard look a the knee joint & elbow joints or the hock & stifle or hip joints & acknowledge that break over in those limbs wont be in straight line break as dictated by theses joints, even the pedal bone supports the break over to be to the lateral side, if you study any pedal bone in a horse you will clearly see that parietal groove & palmar process is of greater proportion to the lateral side, the the whole limb is designed for break over to take place at the lateral part of the toe & not the point, by placing a shoe that is symmetrical & of squared nature & setting it back to enhance premature break over which forces that limb to break over in a straight line, is placing & setting every joint, tendon ligament & muscle in that limb to fight one anther, putting that limb out of balance & on a course to permanent injuries & damage, as i have said before show me the photos that support the wear to the hoof capsule that contradicts the anatomy of the limbs.

JB
Dec. 24, 2007, 04:57 PM
Blistering is nothing more than applying a counterirritant, usually of a caustic nature to an injury. Pinfiring is a more extreme form but oftentimes a blister is applied over a fresh firing as well. Are both variations of the same foolishness.
This is why I wanted to know your experience with "blistering". There are internal blisters which are very beneficial, specifically in the case of a locking stifle case. So, you cannot use "blistering" as a catch-all for something good or bad.


Theory behind such malpractice is that by sending MORE pain, inflammation, swelling etc to an injured area that it will heal faster and/or better. The only real defense the vets can offer up for this prostituting of their profession is that it forces a trainer to rest the horse. Unfortunately rest is often a dirty four letter word with many competitors but time after time it's been proven that just the rest will work better than all these counterirritants.
Again, difference between the topical blister you're talking about, and the internal one.


Question for you JB being as that you seem to be familiar with human medicine is why is this BS not done on people?
Never said I was "familiar with human medicine" ;) That's Deltawave.


As to cutting a patellar ligament for treatment of a stifled horse, thats to my understanding the way that's dealt with. I however wouldn't make that call as it's above the hairline and above my pay grade.


IMHO every good farrier/trimmer should be familiar with some of the more common treatments of leg issues in horses, since legs and feet can affect each other to a great degree. Are you familiar with locking stifle issues? If not, why? If so, how do you modify the trimming and/or shoeing of such a horse?

There are 2 "cutting" treatments here - the older, no longer recommended method of completely cutting the ligament, and the newer, much healthier (not nearly the risk or arthritis as the former treatment) of making several vertical-to-45* slices in the ligament.

goeslikestink
Dec. 24, 2007, 05:05 PM
as for my other questions you havent answered basic horse knoweldeg so there fore you arnt very knowledgable in the horse industry so there fore a novice and do not know what you are talking about

jack mac
Dec. 24, 2007, 05:21 PM
Good god, if this is what you honestly believe, and think that it causes no harm, you must be the Jack Kevorkian of horses.

Large blood loss as you are advocating causes huge problems. I am amazed that you will argue a fallacy in front of experts in the field and still be unwilling to provide any sort of proof of your convictions. Your ignorance is only outweighed by your spelling and grammar.

Signed,

Theodoric of York, Medieval Barber Realy are theses the same experts that are curring founder every day, because there success rate to date is outstanding, i think ill try there advice it seems to be reaping rewards leaps & bounds, let me tell you something expert that you might not know a large horse has a very large spleen some can hold up to 30lt or more in that spleen, I'm not advocating sending them in to shock, what part of manged blood lose didnt you get.

JHUshoer20
Dec. 24, 2007, 05:27 PM
This is why I wanted to know your experience with "blistering". There are internal blisters which are very beneficial, specifically in the case of a locking stifle case. So, you cannot use "blistering" as a catch-all for something good or bad.
Then will you at least concede that topical blistering or any other such idea that applying more pain to an injured area is asinine?



IMHO every good farrier/trimmer should be familiar with some of the more common treatments of leg issues in horses, since legs and feet can affect each other to a great degree. Are you familiar with locking stifle issues? If not, why? If so, how do you modify the trimming and/or shoeing of such a horse? Is largely as I said a vet problem. One pretty inneffective way it was dealt with when I first came around was to employ the use of a stifle shoe. Because that was not really the best way to deal with it I havent heard of such a thing being done in years. Matter of fact, in 28 years of shoeing I can probably count on one hand all the times I've been presented with stifles, springhalts etc. What are you going to dig up next? Sweeney?



There are 2 "cutting" treatments here - the older, no longer recommended method of completely cutting the ligament, and the newer, much healthier (not nearly the risk or arthritis as the former treatment) of making several vertical-to-45* slices in the ligament.

Nice to know but out of my department. I have no intention of ever doing an operation.

Lookout
Dec. 24, 2007, 05:33 PM
Since rotation of the distal phalanx often causes the introduction of uncontained fluids into the hoof capsule and is abetted by the hydraulic action of those fluids,
Funny, when I referred to the hydraulic action of fluids in affecting rotation of the coffin bone here, months and months ago, the response was something along the lines of 'where do you get this stuff'?

jack mac
Dec. 24, 2007, 05:33 PM
as for my other questions you havent answered basic horse knoweldeg so there fore you arnt very knowledgable in the horse industry so there fore a novice and do not know what you are talking aboutYour joking right, dont insult me & waste my time with your childish questions, one can simple google the answers in 5 sec it proves nothing of the sort, so I'm not bothering .

JB
Dec. 24, 2007, 05:36 PM
Then will you at least concede that topical blistering or any other such idea that applying more pain to an injured area is asinine?
Yes, I should have stated that in most cases, external blistering doesn't seem to be warranted.


Is largely as I said a vet problem. One pretty inneffective way it was dealt with when I first came around was to employ the use of a stifle shoe. Because that was not really the best way to deal with it I havent heard of such a thing being done in years. Matter of fact, in 28 years of shoeing I can probably count on one hand all the times I've been presented with stifles, springhalts etc. What are you going to dig up next? Sweeney?

It's stringhalt. I brought it up because a trimmer/shoer who isn't familiar with some of the more common leg issues that can be helped, hindered, or broken even further by either improper trimming or shoeing, or not trimming/shoeing to the specific issue, should either be only working on horses with good feet and no body issues, or shouldn't be working on them at all. JMNSHO.

Sure, why not bring up sweeney ;) If you're dealing with an atrophied shoulder, how do you help the horse compensate with his feet?

deltawave
Dec. 24, 2007, 05:36 PM
a large horse has a very large spleen

Gee whiz and golly gosh, I think I learned that in 4H when I was TWELVE.

What part of "barbaric malpractice" aren't YOU getting?

Nothing more pitiful than someone whose time has past clinging to the "old ways". :no: You are EMBARRASSING yourself.

jack mac
Dec. 24, 2007, 05:37 PM
jack mac

can i ask a personal question is aventura2 your girlfreind or wife ?Not that I'm aware of ,but I'm in the market but i might be a bit to creepy for her :winkgrin:

goeslikestink
Dec. 24, 2007, 05:41 PM
The problem i have with the NB crew, is that none of them have bothered to take a good hard look a the knee joint & elbow joints or the hock & stifle or hip joints & acknowledge that break over in those limbs wont be in straight line break as dictated by theses joints, even the pedal bone supports the break over to be to the lateral side, if you study any pedal bone in a horse you will clearly see that parietal groove & palmar process is of greater proportion to the lateral side, the the whole limb is designed for break over to take place at the lateral part of the toe & not the point, by placing a shoe that is symmetrical & of squared nature & setting it back to enhance premature break over which forces that limb to break over in a straight line, is placing & setting every joint, tendon ligament & muscle in that limb to fight one anther, putting that limb out of balance & on a course to permanent injuries & damage, as i have said before show me the photos that support the wear to the hoof capsule that contradicts the anatomy of the limbs.

you 1st seen as you know such a lot --
in the welfare of a horse-- these people
havent just dealt with one horse or one perticular problem -- they have and deal with 4 legs at anyone time over 4 x legs x hours x days x months in one year its 1000's of legs
they deal with - they dont always have the time to deal people

they deal with legs and feet-- farriers are always good leg men they like feet to
hate the smelly sort as its a bit up there noses when over the hoof

you tend to flick from one conversation to another then back
you still havent answered basic horse care questions as that was to answer and in answer to your then conversation of blood and the questions asked are all to do with blood even the breaths per minute has association with blood
you like i said have gone from the original topic then changed then gone back
thats contriction or somewhat unsure of your facts- and statements which are all poohey

RAyers
Dec. 24, 2007, 05:43 PM
Realy are theses the same experts that are curring founder every day, because there success rate to date is outstanding, i think ill try there advice it seems to be reaping rewards leaps & bounds, let me tell you something expert that you might not know a large horse has a very large spleen some can hold up to 30lt or more in that spleen, I'm not advocating sending them in to shock, what part of manged blood lose didnt you get.

GOOD GRAVY! That is amazing!!!!!!! 30 liters in the spleen!!!!!! Why I never knew.

Considering the total blood volume of a thorough bred race horse is 49.2+/-5L (per Householder and Douglas, J Equ. Vet. Sci., 2005), you are saying over 60% of their blood is held out of circulation.

Again, you are just proving your ignorance. So, yes I get it all.

Reed

jack mac
Dec. 24, 2007, 05:46 PM
Gee whiz and golly gosh, I think I learned that in 4H when I was TWELVE.

What part of "barbaric malpractice" aren't YOU getting?

Nothing more pitiful than someone whose time has past clinging to the "old ways". :no: You are EMBARRASSING yourself.well the pretty owners dont think so, they kinda pay me lots of money, shower me with gifts, some even what to have my children after i save there horse when the other vets want to put it down, there rather happy I kept my open mind & they didnt listen to the closed ones ;)

JHUshoer20
Dec. 24, 2007, 05:46 PM
Not that I'm aware of ,but I'm in the market but i might be a bit to creepy for her :winkgrin:
Now there's an idea Jack:cool: I think she could benefit greatly from being around you! Check her out:D http://www.hphoofcare.com/About%20Me.html
George

Lookout
Dec. 24, 2007, 06:08 PM
I'll cop to having "bled" a horse's ting points in a laminitis case (with a couple of 25 ga needles in each heel).

It was on a good friend's horse, right after I'd returned from the first session of the IVAS course.

We were both amazed at the almost immediate increase in his comfort level.

alas, it was not a cure, ultimately, but it did make him considerably more comfortable in the short term.

But a ting point is not a blood vessel, right? Was it done with the intent of bleeding? How much was released - where did it come from?

goeslikestink
Dec. 24, 2007, 06:11 PM
Your joking right, dont insult me & waste my time with your childish questions, one can simple google the answers in 5 sec it proves nothing of the sort, so I'm not bothering .


sir-- its basic questions you have admitted that you google information
you getting angry as in defensive as lack of knowledge thats very typical of A --person
cornered B- jealousy c- lack off - d- ott and out of league


be - timing a response tells how much ones knows to a question did you know that


if you was a proffessional horse person you would have answered the questions quick as a flash
as most people like to rap of on there knowledge if its a topic they interested in and have knowledge off its human nature to show off - or put it other way help people in understanding whats wrong - or what right or putting it in laymens terms so if they didnt understand the the long technical words that vets or farriers have for xyz then they would explain in great lenghts as to what that is or was etc

the experts here such as the farrier -- have done that and you got that for free
there knowledge is sound and proven---

deltawave
Dec. 24, 2007, 06:11 PM
Ewww, gross, I think I just threw up in my mouth a little. :dead:


well the pretty owners dont think so, they kinda pay me lots of money, shower me with gifts, some even what to have my children after i save there horse

grayarabs
Dec. 24, 2007, 06:15 PM
I cannot say I am a fan of bloodletting - but maggots and leaches ok.
But I am fascinated with the drilling of holes for a hot founder case. At face value this makes perfect sense with a horse with a bounding digital pulse. This reminds me of when I smashed a finger - nail swollen/full of blood - bounding pulsing pain - thought I was going to go into orbit - went to doctor - he took a paperclip - heated the end - applied/touched into nail - pressure released and immediate relief. Then I soaked it. I am thinking much the same could help a foundering horse. But...??? This would assume hoof is "congested" and the holes would provide pressure release and much less pain. Would have to be repeated? What about the holes? Why is this option not heavily researched, papered, implemented? I think it could be a big part of treatment option - whatever your other method of treatment for founder would be. I would treat barefoot, lower heels - back up toes - encourage movement - boots/styrofoam if necessary - and would surely consider drilling holes if this were more studied and proven effective and not detrimental. (sp?) Anyone have photos of hooves that have been drilled. Any idea how many times this has been done - and outcomes? Not that I would drill them myself - but could you explain in easier terms where the holes would be drilled?

JHUshoer20
Dec. 24, 2007, 06:21 PM
Check out post #54. Mr Stovall pretty accurately describes how it's done. I agree that more research should be done in this area before it becomes lost to history.
George

jack mac
Dec. 24, 2007, 06:32 PM
GOOD GRAVY! That is amazing!!!!!!! 30 liters in the spleen!!!!!! Why I never knew.

Considering the total blood volume of a thorough bred race horse is 49.2+/-5L (per Householder and Douglas, J Equ. Vet. Sci., 2005), you are saying over 60% of their blood is held out of circulation.

Again, you are just proving your ignorance. So, yes I get it all.

ReedI have drained 31 litters from the spleen of a 19 hand Clydesdale, "no scientific study" that's what i drained in to the buckets make of that as you wish, there is a difference in what capacity can be held what is held & what is circulating Durrrrr :mad: & I'm growing tired of what i say taken out of context in an attempt to discredit me & divert attention away from the original topic of NB shoeing .:)

jack mac
Dec. 24, 2007, 06:35 PM
Now there's an idea Jack:cool: I think she could benefit greatly from being around you! Check her out:D http://www.hphoofcare.com/About%20Me.html
George i could make her a hoof stand as a good will gesture;)

Ghazzu
Dec. 24, 2007, 06:37 PM
But a ting point is not a blood vessel, right? Was it done with the intent of bleeding? How much was released - where did it come from?

Not in any major vessel.
Interestingly, the blood from the more painful foot was darker than that from the other, and more of it accumulated.
We both stood there, watching the blood trickle out of the needle hubs, pooling on the mats, and after a minute or two, Karen asked me, "How long do you do this for? How much blood do you get?"

I told her " I have absolutely no idea. I've never done this before," and we watched another few minutes. The flow slowed, and the blood became somewhat redder, and then stopped.

The horse walked back to his stall about 50% better than he's walked out.

deltawave
Dec. 24, 2007, 06:37 PM
Do you mean on necropsy? Venous congestion/pooling post-mortem might super-engorge the spleen, that's entirely possible. Wonder if the horse had any heart problems... How one would drain 30 liters from the spleen of a living horse escapes me. :eek: Still not entirely sure of the relevance of this line of thinking. :p

JHUshoer20
Dec. 24, 2007, 06:38 PM
I have drained 31 litters from the spleen of a 19 hand Clydesdale, "no scientific study" that's what i drained in to the buckets make of that as you wish, there is a difference in what capacity can be held what is held & what is circulating Durrrrr :mad: & I'm growing tired of what i say taken out of context in an attempt to discredit me & divert attention away from the original topic of NB shoeing .:)
Ok back to Natural BS we go.

Here's one for when Rick gets back, how come this style of shoeing has never caught on with Standardbreds? In that style of racing its just about anything goes as far as shoeing is concerned, yet, this is not done.

Could it be because the stopwatch doesn't lie?:winkgrin:
George

Ghazzu
Dec. 24, 2007, 06:39 PM
I have drained 31 litters from the spleen of a 19 hand Clydesdale,

What happened? Did you do an abdominocentesis and miss?

Katy Watts
Dec. 24, 2007, 06:42 PM
I'm growing tired of what i say taken out of context in an attempt to discredit me

But we can't find a context that fits anything you say, IF we can figure out what you said. And we don't have to discredit you. You're doing a brilliant job of that yourself.

JHUshoer20
Dec. 24, 2007, 06:42 PM
i could make her a hoof stand as a good will gesture;)That'd be cool. I wonder if she sits on a milking stool like the Fuhrerette does? Hmmmmm:confused:

Matter of fact I wonder where she's at tonight? Is not like her to add to a shoeing discussion:no:

One thing you'll like about her though, she got put on a time out from horseshoes for cussing. You believe that!:D
George

jack mac
Dec. 24, 2007, 06:54 PM
you 1st seen as you know such a lot --
in the welfare of a horse-- these people
havent just dealt with one horse or one perticular problem -- they have and deal with 4 legs at anyone time over 4 x legs x hours x days x months in one year its 1000's of legs
they deal with - they dont always have the time to deal people

they deal with legs and feet-- farriers are always good leg men they like feet to
hate the smelly sort as its a bit up there noses when over the hoof

you tend to flick from one conversation to another then back
you still havent answered basic horse care questions as that was to answer and in answer to your then conversation of blood and the questions asked are all to do with blood even the breaths per minute has association with blood
you like i said have gone from the original topic then changed then gone back
thats contriction or somewhat unsure of your facts- and statements which are all poohey i am trying my hardest to stick to the topic & not get side tracked as so far it has done, if that gives you the impression I'm a fool so be it, my goal is to sticking to topic & I'm hoping not to see the NB weasel out of it again :)

goeslikestink
Dec. 24, 2007, 07:04 PM
i am trying my hardest to stick to the topic & not get side tracked as so far it has done, if that gives you the impression I'm a fool so be it, my goal is to sticking to topic & I'm hoping not to see the NB weasel out of it again :)


now i didnt say you was a fool i said lack of knowledge its doesnt make you a fool
but if you want to play the fool then dont let me stop you

you doing just fine - - see its prespective how one reads learns and is educated
i am dislextic but no fool, --as regards to horse had more than just a few

RAyers
Dec. 24, 2007, 07:05 PM
I have drained 31 litters from the spleen of a 19 hand Clydesdale, "no scientific study" that's what i drained in to the buckets make of that as you wish, there is a difference in what capacity can be held what is held & what is circulating Durrrrr :mad: & I'm growing tired of what i say taken out of context in an attempt to discredit me & divert attention away from the original topic of NB shoeing .:)

Dude, you don't need me to discredit you. You are doing fine on your own. Face it, if you have so many other things wrong, it is hard to believe you have anything right.

I am sure you believe that a man's word is his reputation. Well, your "words" here are destroying your reputation here.

Reed

jack mac
Dec. 24, 2007, 07:07 PM
But we can't find a context that fits anything you say, IF we can figure out what you said. And we don't have to discredit you. You're doing a brilliant job of that yourself.As if i didnt know you were going to say that, can we know stick to the NB shoeing topic :)

JHUshoer20
Dec. 24, 2007, 07:11 PM
Ok lets try this one,

Hey Stinky, do you see much of this style of shoeing in England?
George

jack mac
Dec. 24, 2007, 07:11 PM
Dude, you don't need me to discredit you. You are doing fine on your own. Face it, if you have so many other things wrong, it is hard to believe you have anything right.

I am sure you believe that a man's word is his reputation. Well, your "words" here are destroying your reputation here.

ReedReally did you cut the horse up & drain the spleen in to bucks "NO" i did think as you like & as you wish .:)

Lookout
Dec. 24, 2007, 07:13 PM
I am thinking much the same could help a foundering horse. But...??? This would assume hoof is "congested" and the holes would provide pressure release and much less pain. Would have to be repeated? What about the holes? Why is this option not heavily researched, papered, implemented?
I don't know about researched and papered, but hoof resections are implemented all the time.

I don't get the sudden fascination as if it's something new/unknown.

goeslikestink
Dec. 24, 2007, 07:21 PM
Ok lets try this one,

Hey Stinky, do you see much of this style of shoeing in England?
George


none what so ever George mate

o wait a minute -- my heals just broke of my stilletoe arh bum i was gonna wear um
tonight -


if the horse is in balanced as he said legs and limbs then a heart bar shoe is used
to provide stability to the foot its useful for fractures and distal phalnanx , pedal bone, sheered heels,
and for a case of severe in balanced of hieght of heals

laminitus in uk is more often or not cause by horses and ponies kept at grass
especially when the grass growing rapidly small ponines being prone to the carborhayrates grain overload and toxaemiana eg servere dierea exsessive weight bearing on one leg may induce laminitus so dies to muck work load on hard ground
the heal grow faster than the toe -- take pones and horses of the grass and put on a restricted diet have horse trimmed and attented to by farrier have radiograpth to see depth of damage done with vets biotin or methionine supplements to be given to promote karatin a hoof wall componant

hows i do george in balanced
probable rubbish but having a pony with lamnitus

jack mac
Dec. 24, 2007, 07:27 PM
Know that we have established your all a panel of expert's you should understand the joints of the horse, so you tell me I'm i wrong with my assessment of function of joints in the limbs & break over having to be to the lateral side of the toe of the hoof, give me your expert opinions .

Katy Watts
Dec. 24, 2007, 07:33 PM
none what so ever George mate

Except for:

Contact David Nicholls at Total Foot protection, in West Sussex. The tele is +44 (0) 1403 791000. E mail dave@tfp.uk.com

David is an awesome farrier. He worked on my old foundered mare for his NB Theraputic certification. Did a brilliant job. She was back to being a fancy mover when he was done.

There is a farrier finder on Gene's website. As you can see there is a long list.
www.hopeforsoundness.com

Katy Watts
Dec. 24, 2007, 07:35 PM
As if i didnt know you were going to say that, can we know stick to the NB shoeing topic :)

I really enjoy an intelligent conversation, or even debate. I'll look elsewhere, thanks.

JHUshoer20
Dec. 24, 2007, 07:44 PM
You know Katy,
Looking at your list I noticed not only that there were no Australians but that a good number of the Americans were guys that I knew.

It doesn't surprise me that many of them were the same guys that jumped on the 4 point trimming bandwagon a few years ago:eek:
George

jack mac
Dec. 24, 2007, 07:52 PM
Dude, you don't need me to discredit you. You are doing fine on your own. Face it, if you have so many other things wrong, it is hard to believe you have anything right.

I am sure you believe that a man's word is his reputation. Well, your "words" here are destroying your reputation here.

Reedhttp://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=167&nID=25&n=General%20Anatomy/%20Physiology%20Topics&case=2
have a read 2 thirds mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

goeslikestink
Dec. 24, 2007, 07:56 PM
Except for:

Contact David Nicholls at Total Foot protection, in West Sussex. The tele is +44 (0) 1403 791000. E mail dave@tfp.uk.com

David is an awesome farrier. He worked on my old foundered mare for his NB Theraputic certification. Did a brilliant job. She was back to being a fancy mover when he was done.

There is a farrier finder on Gene's website. As you can see there is a long list.
www.hopeforsoundness.com

ooh i didnt know that andwest sussex is next county thank you always interesting to learn something new before i use or see him i will check hes uk on the farrier listings no offence

jack mac
Dec. 24, 2007, 08:02 PM
I really enjoy an intelligent conversation, or even debate. I'll look elsewhere, thanks.why do you dislike me so much Katy have i offended you at some point ?

JHUshoer20
Dec. 24, 2007, 08:03 PM
Is morning in Australia now:winkgrin:

I know you're not into it but Merry Christmas to you just the same Jack!:)
George

RAyers
Dec. 24, 2007, 08:13 PM
http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=167&nID=25&n=General%20Anatomy/%20Physiology%20Topics&case=2
have a read 2 thirds mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Yes, this proves you are unable to read too.

Here is the DIRECT QUOTE from your article:

"In fact, up to one-third of the horse's red cells are stored within the spleen."

Here let me make this very simple for your simple mind. To find it it is the 5th paragraph, fourth sentence.

In other words, you suggested 2/3 (66%) of the blood is stored in the spleen. Now you want to say I am wrong but even this article says only 1/3 of the blood is stored. Your OWN reference contradicts you.

I can't argue logic with an unarmed oppenent.

Reed

jack mac
Dec. 24, 2007, 08:24 PM
Is morning in Australia now:winkgrin:

I know you're not into it but Merry Christmas to you just the same Jack!:)
George
Merry Christmas George :)

CookiePony
Dec. 24, 2007, 08:29 PM
...the whole limb is designed for break over to take place at the lateral part of the toe & not the point, by placing a shoe that is symmetrical & of squared nature & setting it back to enhance premature break over which forces that limb to break over in a straight line, is placing & setting every joint, tendon ligament & muscle in that limb to fight one anther...

So... you are saying that a shoe should not be symmetrical?

BTW, the NB shoe really isn't squared, although optically it seems so. If you look at the outer edge of the shoe it is an arc, not a square.

See pics at http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/edss/store/perfprod.html .

RAyers
Dec. 24, 2007, 08:37 PM
Know that we have established your all a panel of expert's you should understand the joints of the horse, so you tell me I'm i wrong with my assessment of function of joints in the limbs & break over having to be to the lateral side of the toe of the hoof, give me your expert opinions .


While I may not be an expert on the biomechanics of the limb, I can readily tell you I am an expert in joint biology/physiology/and cartilage mechanics. These are the things I teach, both at the human med school and the vet hospital.

I would say, your statement is vague enough to be specious. One must see a fluoroscopic movie of the skeletal column to make this determination. There is sufficient biomechanical research out there to prove that watching skin or skin markers does not correlate to the motion of the joints themselves.

So, maybe you are right for some horses and maybe you are wrong for others.

Reed

Ghazzu
Dec. 24, 2007, 08:41 PM
http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=167&nID=25&n=General%20Anatomy/%20Physiology%20Topics&case=2
have a read 2 thirds mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Hey, Jack--
are you aware of the difference between packed red cells and and peripheral blood?
When you bleed a horse, you're removing more than RBC's.
If that were not the case, it wouldn't be possible for a horse to increase its PCV by releasing the splenic reserves.

deltawave
Dec. 24, 2007, 08:54 PM
RED CELLS are not the same thing as BLOOD. Oops, Ghazzu got there first. :)

jack mac
Dec. 24, 2007, 09:10 PM
Yes, this proves you are unable to read too.

Here is the DIRECT QUOTE from your article:

"In fact, up to one-third of the horse's red cells are stored within the spleen."

Here let me make this very simple for your simple mind. To find it it is the 5th paragraph, fourth sentence.

In other words, you suggested 2/3 (66%) of the blood is stored in the spleen. Now you want to say I am wrong but even this article says only 1/3 of the blood is stored. Your OWN reference contradicts you.

I can't argue logic with an unarmed oppenent.

Reed 1/3 red cells

JSwan
Dec. 24, 2007, 09:23 PM
RED CELLS are not the same thing as BLOOD. Oops, Ghazzu got there first. :)

Double oops - I thought it was a feed supplement. :winkgrin:



I have "heard" of bloodletting to help in founder cases though. I know it's a rather old timey method and therefore subject to getting the evil eye. On the other hand - my little grey cells tell me that bloodletting might help in certain cases. Of course, heparin and nitro patches help too. As does bute.

I have a vet book from the 1800's that belonged to Mr JSwan's family (big draft horse breeders back in the day). Anyway, some of the stuff makes my blood run cold. And some things.....were spot on; though dated by today's standards. Interesting reading.

jack mac
Dec. 25, 2007, 01:51 AM
Now you have kicked me around for a bit & gleaming with pride at your googling for the day, firstly you are all so quick to jump the mark, if it was a foot race you would all be disqualified, iv seen wild dogs behave better, secondly no one bothered to ask over what time period the bleeding took, minutes, hours, days,(not surprised one bit) thirdly was it taken at intervals & how much blood was taken in each of those intervals, you all just assumed it was drained all at once, do you really think i would be that incompetent to send a horse in to shock as well as dehydration, got to love people on horse forums ;) looking forward to talking about NB shoeing know.

RAyers
Dec. 25, 2007, 02:08 AM
1/3 red cells

Why yes. Now using logic, if the blood is 35% RBCs, that means at no point can more than 1/3 of the total blood volume be in the spleen at any point.

No, this has nothing to do with googling and since you keep coming back, continually changing the parameters of your argument, you come off as lacking understanding or knowledge. I see this in the classroom quite a bit when the professor or lecturer has no idea what they are talking about. The students, even if they don't know the topic can tell when the presenter does not know the topic either.

Reed

jack mac
Dec. 25, 2007, 02:27 AM
For those experts who think all spleens are the same size in horses & always positioned in the same place of page 56 & page 57:) http://books.google.com/books?id=44LZ2Fxfxg0C&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=size+of+spleen+in+horse&source=web&ots=9AWXgrgxwq&sig=DyZEPuDvlBGjfgYaaY9VZwC0zQc#PPA56,M1

goeslikestink
Dec. 25, 2007, 03:26 AM
For those experts who think all spleens are the same size in horses & always positioned in the same place of page 56 & page 57:) http://books.google.com/books?id=44LZ2Fxfxg0C&pg=PA57&lpg=PA57&dq=size+of+spleen+in+horse&source=web&ots=9AWXgrgxwq&sig=DyZEPuDvlBGjfgYaaY9VZwC0zQc#PPA56,M1

i am no vet-- but read it that if a horse is ill then the spleen changes size
same as if you had a sore thoart it - doh changes size

goeslikestink
Dec. 25, 2007, 03:27 AM
it christmas day
happy christmas to you all

jack mac
Dec. 25, 2007, 04:14 AM
While I may not be an expert on the biomechanics of the limb, I can readily tell you I am an expert in joint biology/physiology/and cartilage mechanics. These are the things I teach, both at the human med school and the vet hospital.

I would say, your statement is vague enough to be specious. One must see a fluoroscopic movie of the skeletal column to make this determination. There is sufficient biomechanical research out there to prove that watching skin or skin markers does not correlate to the motion of the joints themselves.

So, maybe you are right for some horses and maybe you are wrong for others.

ReedWell I'm glade your not teaching me, pick up one of any horses limbs & bend the knee or hock joint its not that difficult, i do it just about everyday of the week, they dont articulate in a straight line like a gate hinge know stand up take your shoes off and walk 10ft which side is your break over on your feet, then if your still not satisfied jump in a aircraft fly to northern Australia find your self a good black tracker & if you got any doubts then he will set you straight ;)PS & dont expect him to of gone to uni or ever read a book his knowledge in animal & human movements will be far more extensive & Superior then anything you will find at uni .

jack mac
Dec. 25, 2007, 04:39 AM
it christmas day
happy christmas to you allmerry christmas to you to PS i wasn't cutting it up for fun it had crushions , its was the biggest spleen & enlarged liver & heart i & anther vet have ever seen in a horse , & for the record you can safely take 8 to 8 &1/2 Lt of whole blood safely out of a 500 kg horse with out any ill effects, 30 to 40 % circulating blood is enough to sustain life:)

Tom Stovall
Dec. 25, 2007, 06:56 AM
It's almost 0600, cold, and clear. I can hear the coyotes singing from across the creek and it's too damn nice a morning to be involved in bloodletting discussions. Time to do chores and reflect a bit on how fortunate we are to have horses in our care.

Merry Christmas.

deltawave
Dec. 25, 2007, 08:53 AM
its was the biggest spleen & enlarged liver & heart I knew it, enlarged heart. Something wrong with the right side, probably, causing venous engorgement and an enlarged spleen. Hardly what you'd call "typical".

I've drained 3 liters from the pericardium of a person who was very minimally symptomatic, and yet only 50 ccs, if it accumulates rapidly, is more than enough to kill a person. Bodies are amazing, but you can't use the freak cases to prove an example of "typical". :)

I'm really genuinely curious as to HOW and WHY you drained all this blood from the spleen of a living horse?

JHUshoer20
Dec. 25, 2007, 09:36 AM
Hey Jack,
I've noticed that wherever this Natural BS topic is brought up that the proponents of it never want to hear any opposing viewpoints.

On this forum they have strayed from blood to sweeneys to everything else in order to keep from defending this protocal.

I believe you have some good strong convincing arguments in opposition to this shoeing style that all could learn from.

Is unfortunate that they feel the need to behave this way:(

I'll be back in a couple days have a good one,
George

deltawave
Dec. 25, 2007, 09:39 AM
Actually I have no powerful opinion one way or another on NB shoeing. It's just fun to delve into something a little different than "farrier fundamentalism" now and then. :)

goeslikestink
Dec. 25, 2007, 10:05 AM
It's almost 0600, cold, and clear. I can hear the coyotes singing from across the creek and it's too damn nice a morning to be involved in bloodletting discussions. Time to do chores and reflect a bit on how fortunate we are to have horses in our care.

Merry Christmas.


quite-- merry christmas tom s

here its rianing was up doing mine and daughters early this morning- already had my dinner

RAyers
Dec. 25, 2007, 10:07 AM
I could not care less about NB vs. whatever. My farrier has been keeping my horse sound and competitive for over 10 years so it really doesn't matter what he does specifically.

This thread to me it is about presenting relevant data, not exceptions to prove a rule. Right now all I've seen and heard is a bunch of personal opinions and anecdotal observation and nothing to prove a point. So the conversation on NB, to me is moot.

Reed

goeslikestink
Dec. 25, 2007, 10:31 AM
I could not care less about NB vs. whatever. My farrier has been keeping my horse sound and competitive for over 10 years so it really doesn't matter what he does specifically.

This thread to me it is about presenting relevant data, not exceptions to prove a rule. Right now all I've seen and heard is a bunch of personal opinions and anecdotal observation and nothing to prove a point. So the conversation on NB, to me is moot.

Reed

i think your right as its no point to it

Rick Burten
Dec. 25, 2007, 10:59 AM
I missed the "exhilarated growth and swelling" part. Sounds kind of kinky. :D

Perhaps these are instances of Viagara/Cialis induced founders? :)

Rick Burten
Dec. 25, 2007, 11:09 AM
I wonder if it worked simply as a lessening of the volume of blood pressing down into the feet, as it was no longer circulating? .
Consider this. By draining out more than 1/3 of the horse's blood volume,the heart has to work harder to do its job. Other organs and all tissues that require oxygenated blood receive less of what they need, and the return of venous blood for oxygenation is compromised too. So, while perhaps the blood letting is of some value to the pressure within the hoof capsule, the question is, what damage is it doing to the rest of the system? And, how long does it take the horse to replenish that lost volume. At what cost?

Would be better if we could devise a way to safely lay the horse down and position his hooves higher than his heartand keep him that way untill the acute phase has passed.

Rick Burten
Dec. 25, 2007, 11:24 AM
The problem i have with the NB crew, is that none of them have bothered to take a good hard look a the knee joint & elbow joints or the hock & stifle or hip joints & acknowledge that break over in those limbs wont be in straight line break as dictated by theses joints,
And you know this because? Be specific

even the pedal bone supports the break over to be to the lateral side,
Were you a less indiffernt reader, you would, by now, have known that whether of the NB persuasion or not, all are in general agreement that usually the hoof breaks over slightly lateral to the mid line of the hoof. And, they/we have said so ad naseum.

by placing a shoe that is symmetrical & of squared nature & setting it back to enhance premature break over which forces that limb to break over in a straight line, is placing & setting every joint, tendon ligament & muscle in that limb to fight one anther, putting that limb out of balance & on a course to permanent injuries & damage,
You still don't get it do you? For the umteenth time:
1. Horseshoes shoe with symmetrical shoes. The symmetry is dependent on the individual hoof.
2. The NB front pattern shoe is not a squared toe shoe.
3. The NB shoe is rolled on all its outside edges to allow the horse to choose where it will breakover.
4. Noothing in the protocols engenders "premature breakover", rather, correct location of breakover. Get it?
5. The NB shoe is less likely to force the limb to break over in a straight line than is a shoe that is perimeter fit and straight edged. The shoe is much less likely to force the limb to break over in a straight line than is a rolled toe shoe, a rockered toe shoe, a squared toe shoe, a shoe with a trailer, etc, ad naseum. And, I note, all the afore mentioned shoes are routinely applied by "traditional farriers" as has been taught by "traditional farriers" for centuries. Get it?
6. There is not one scintilla of proof that a correctly applied NB shoe puts the limb out of balance and/or sets the limb on a course for injury & damage, permanent or otherwise. Get it?

as i have said before show me the photos that support the wear to the hoof capsule that contradicts the anatomy of the limbs.
You have been given the contact information necessary to get these photos. Do your due dilligence. And in the mean time, post examples of your work, including trimming, shoeing, blood letting and euthanasia.

Rick Burten
Dec. 25, 2007, 11:28 AM
dont insult me & waste my time with your childish questions,
Why not? You seem to have no problem doing that to the rest of us. :eek:

one can simple google the answers in 5 sec it proves nothing of the sort, so I'm not bothering .
So, for a change, follow your own exhortions.

Tiempo
Dec. 25, 2007, 11:33 AM
It's almost 0600, cold, and clear. I can hear the coyotes singing from across the creek and it's too damn nice a morning to be involved in bloodletting discussions. Time to do chores and reflect a bit on how fortunate we are to have horses in our care.

Merry Christmas.

What a lovely picture Tom!

Cold and cloudy here and the coyotes are quiet..haven't heard them for weeks which is strange we have so many.

Merry Christmas to you too!

Haven't jumped in on this conversation yet, but it's sure been entertaining ;)

Alison.

Rick Burten
Dec. 25, 2007, 11:36 AM
well the pretty owners dont think so, they kinda pay me lots of money, shower me with gifts, some even what to have my children after i save there horse
Confucious say "He who pat self on back soon get dislocated shoulder"

What does "kinda pay me" mean? either they do or they don't. Or don't you know?

Folks, perhaps we are dealing with Jesus incarnate and just don't know it. After all, it is Christmas.........

when the other vets want to put it down,
You imply with that statement that you are a licensed veterinarian. Are you? If so, what veterinary college issued you your degree, and in what year?

Rick Burten
Dec. 25, 2007, 11:44 AM
I have drained 31 litters from the spleen of a 19 hand Clydesdale,
Only once?
Living or dead? If dead, would you think that that mattered?

"no scientific study" that's what i drained in to the buckets make of that as you wish,
Nothing of value can be made of that, other than one horse allegedly had that much blood in its spleen at some given time. Whether that horse was living or dead, may have some significant relevance.

I'm growing tired of what i say taken out of context in an attempt to discredit me
No one is attempting to discredit you. You do far too good a job of it of your own accord.

& divert attention away from the original topic of NB shoeing .:)
ROTFLMAO! You consistently drift off on a tangent and apparently do so in an attempt to divert attention from you obvious and demostrable lack of knowledge relevant to either traditional farriery, or NB trimming and/or shoeing.

Rick Burten
Dec. 25, 2007, 11:47 AM
Not in any major vessel.
Interestingly, the blood from the more painful foot was darker than that from the other, and more of it accumulated.
"pooled blood"

I told her " I have absolutely no idea. I've never done this before," and we watched another few minutes. The flow slowed, and the blood became somewhat redder, and then stopped.
Not unlike drilling a couple of holes in the dorsal hoof wall

The horse walked back to his stall about 50% better than he's walked out.
Far different than opening a vein and draining out 1/3 + of the horse's total blood volume.

Rick Burten
Dec. 25, 2007, 11:52 AM
Ok back to Natural BS we go.

Here's one for when Rick gets back, how come this style of shoeing has never caught on with Standardbreds? In that style of racing its just about anything goes as far as shoeing is concerned, yet, this is not done.
True, but perhaps those who either train or shoe these horses are still reading and practicing with information from the 19th/early20th centuries? And rather than anything goes, it is my experience that there are limits placed on that statement by trainers and farriers of those jugheads.

Could it be because the stopwatch doesn't lie?:winkgrin:
George
Don't know. Perhaps because no one has tried the approach, no comparisons/conclusions, stopwatch or otherwise can be inferred or drawn.

Heck George, haven't there been some jugheads that have raced barefoot and won? If that's the case, why are'nt all jugheads trained and raced barefoot? Coud it be because the stoopwatch doesn't lie? :winkgrin:

Rick Burten
Dec. 25, 2007, 11:59 AM
so you tell me I'm i wrong with my assessment of function of joints in the limbs & break over having to be to the lateral side of the toe of the hoof, give me your expert opinions .
OK, you're wrong. Feel better now? However, as with most anything horse, "It depends"

By now, if you have given up your indifferent reading style, you will have read that generally speaking, horses will indeed break over slightly lateral to the midline. However, that assumess no pathology or conformation discrepancies/deficiencies.

i.e.:
Does a base narrow toed out horse break over lateral to the mid line?

How much lateral to the midline of the toe, does the average horse break over?
(hint: if you answer, "It Depends", you will get a better grade).

Rick Burten
Dec. 25, 2007, 12:04 PM
http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=167&nID=25&n=General%20Anatomy/%20Physiology%20Topics&case=2
have a read 2 thirds mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I'll save everyone the trouble:
"Splenic contraction and release of stored red cells can occur under other circumstances, for example when the horse is excited. As a result, measurements of red cell numbers (hematocrit) in samples taken from excited horses do not provide a true indication of a horse's resting state. Conversely, because the horse stores up to one-third of its red cells in the spleen, "blood counts" measured in samples obtained from calm, resting horses cannot be used to assess oxygen-carrying capacity. Despite this, many racehorse trainers routinely use such resting measurements as a guide to the fitness of their horses."

Still doesn't substantiate your claim.

Rick Burten
Dec. 25, 2007, 12:08 PM
do you really think i would be that incompetent to send a horse in to shock as well as dehydration,.
In a word, YES!

Rick Burten
Dec. 25, 2007, 12:11 PM
find your self a good black tracker
What does his color have to do with anything??

Katy Watts
Dec. 25, 2007, 02:12 PM
This thread to me it is about presenting relevant data, not exceptions to prove a rule. Right now all I've seen and heard is a bunch of personal opinions and anecdotal observation and nothing to prove a point.
Reed

Unfortunately, there have been no scientific studies to compare NB to any other form of shoeing. There is no data. It would be a very difficult thing to study, so anecdotal evidence is the only thing we can offer. As NBis more about a method rather than a shoe, I feel that only those cases where a person fully educated in the whole method applied the shoes can be considered valid even for anecdotal evidence. I try hard to stay out of debates about hoofcare, because I am not an expert, and there are many different good practices out there. I feel that finding a good practitioner is more important than the method. But when someone tries to defame a technique that is so helpful to so many horses, I must take exception.

I got a Christmas card today from someone who consulted with me on a long standing chronic laminitis case. The mare had been down so long she had bed sores, and this was their last ditch effort to help her, or put her down. Last I heard they had started riding her again. " she is finally barefoot (after about 16 months on various shoes applied by Gene). He was a true God-send, too. "

NB is gaining popularity because our horses travel better and are sounder. Many people in my area went to NB after being unhappy with the traditionally trained farriers. Perhaps we don't have a good practitioner of traditional farriery, but some are certified CJF. From upper level dressage horses to foundered and navicular horses that had been deemed hopeless cripples ready for euthanesia, NB techniques have been proven to us on an individual basis to be extremely beneficial. If you go to Gene's clinics and see the horses travel before and after, one has to admit that he did something good. I sure am not qualified to explain how or why. Like any other tool, if misapplied, it will not work. From another board it was noted that NB certification is something that hoofcare providers seek because it is mandated by the customers. No farrier will ever touch my horses feet without a personal recommendation by Gene Ovnecik, and then I will haul for him to see them at least once a year. I tried it all, and spent a bloody fortune on hoofcare that didn't work.
Our horses prove our point to us, and thats what counts.
Katy

JSwan
Dec. 25, 2007, 02:27 PM
On the other hand, Katy, there are plenty of horses out there, dare I say, the majority, that are doing just fine without the benefit of Gene's method.

Again, it's this one size fits all approach that is so patently ridiculous. It's like the NH fanatics that insist a particular flim flam man has all the answers.

Same with feeding, same with tack, same with any other aspect of horsemanship.

If anyone is going to assert that a particular method is the ONLY way - then sorry - anecdotes don't cut it. Gene is going to have to show the same evidence that vets or researchers do.

I'm not knocking NB; I have one horse that did well with such a trim. However, the horse would have also done well with any trim that eliminated contracted and underrun heels, and also brought back the toe and changed the breakover. So while that method was a benefit to that particular horse - that particular horse is also doing well without that trim.

If a horse suffers from poor farriery, pretty much any decent trim is going to help the horse regain soundness or at least a measure of comfort.

Glad that you're so pleased with your farrier. I am also pleased with my farrier. My horses are sound and healthy. One is unshod.

However, this "proves" nothing. All it means is that my farrier and I have worked it out so that my horses move and perform well, and are sound for their work. In essence, that is all you can really claim about Gene.

deltawave
Dec. 25, 2007, 02:34 PM
Exactly, JSwan. I have one horse that seems to go very well in NBs. The other one goes in regular shoes. The other one is barefoot. Whatever.

Those of us who live here in the land of moderation are doing fine. :)

JSwan
Dec. 25, 2007, 02:37 PM
Those of us who live here in the land of moderation are doing fine. :)

But deltawave - we must be soooooo boring at parties!

goeslikestink
Dec. 25, 2007, 02:40 PM
well the pretty owners dont think so, they kinda pay me lots of money, shower me with gifts, some even what to have my children after i save there horse when the other vets want to put it down, there rather happy I kept my open mind & they didnt listen to the closed ones ;)


watch you and your halo dont fall in a bog---

goeslikestink
Dec. 25, 2007, 02:44 PM
merry christmas to you to PS i wasn't cutting it up for fun it had crushions , its was the biggest spleen & enlarged liver & heart i & anther vet have ever seen in a horse , & for the record you can safely take 8 to 8 &1/2 Lt of whole blood safely out of a 500 kg horse with out any ill effects, 30 to 40 % circulating blood is enough to sustain life:)

sir your no vet thats gfor sure as theres no such thing as crushions


might be hybred mar-criusheions they come from the red planet in the galaxy of the universe

Katy Watts
Dec. 25, 2007, 02:56 PM
Again, it's this one size fits all approach that is so patently ridiculous. It's like the NH fanatics that insist a particular flim flam man has all the answers.



Sorry, I did not mean to imply that. That's why I say, 'Don't choose a practice, fiind a good practitioner'. I used to be happy with my traditional farrier with previous horses.

All I can say is, NB works better on my current horses, and several clients with foundered horses.
Katy

goeslikestink
Dec. 25, 2007, 03:32 PM
Sorry, I did not mean to imply that. That's why I say, 'Don't choose a practice, fiind a good practitioner'. I used to be happy with my traditional farrier with previous horses.

All I can say is, NB works better on my current horses, and several clients with foundered horses.
Katy

judging by the shape of the shoe on the toe end i could see how it would benifit the horse or pony

matryoshka
Dec. 25, 2007, 04:28 PM
One would hope that a competetent NB shoer would be just as capable as a farrier using more traditional keg shoes, or even hand-made shoes, of evaluating how a horse moves before applying the shoe. In this way, he/she can respect the breakover the horse has around the toe, wherever it might be for a particular limb. There are just too many variations for a "one size fits all" approach. So, with a grinder or a file, an NB shoe could have the breakover modified just as easily as a regular keg shoe could. I believe Rick is saying that this is not needed due to the design of the shoe.

So I guess I don't see this as an important point in the argument against NB shoes/shoeing.

I think they are expensive shoes. That hits owners in the pocket book and may be more of an argument for somebody not wanting to try the NB protocol for their horse.

For my personal horse who needs his breakover brought back far, I'd choose NB shoes. I know his feet and legs, and that would keep him moving fluidly. As it is, I keep his breakover back through trimming, but it makes him super hard to fit for boots. It's a PIA.

And Jack, it is usual to let people know the elapsed time for any procedure where you mention flow of a finite volume. Of course we thought you were proposing to do it all at once; you gave no indication otherwise. The onus is on the writer to be clear in his presentation and NOT blame the readers for making assumptions based on data that was not included. I used to be a technical writer, and I'd have gotten fired for leaving all of that up to the reader rather than stating it clearly up front. This may just be a public forum, but if you intend to argue a point, it is in your best interest to be as clear as possible about all aspects of your argument. It'll save bandwidth here, too, since there won't be 10 people pointing out how your claims are impossible. If you are presenting an argument, you've got to show how it IS possible rather than being mysterious and expecting people to know what is in your head but not written down.

Merry Christmas.

jack mac
Dec. 25, 2007, 04:58 PM
sir your no vet thats gfor sure as theres no such thing as crushions


might be hybred mar-criusheions they come from the red planet in the galaxy of the universeI apologize for my poor spelling my only difference is the christian neighbours up the road invited me to christmas lunch, & i partook in some of there home grown wine refreshments whilst there, & they graciously sent me home with another bottle for me to sample, there lovely people & no I'm not a registered vet :) & have never clamed to be a "registered" vet.

jack mac
Dec. 25, 2007, 05:04 PM
cushings syndrome thats better :yes:

goeslikestink
Dec. 25, 2007, 05:23 PM
so am curious what are you - as in experince - horse knowledge
ie farrier trimmer, owner rider breeder horse meatman or just some joe bloggs looking at the internet on a subject
what gives you right to play god to bleed a horse if not a vet ?

jack mac
Dec. 25, 2007, 05:56 PM
so am curious what are you - as in experince - horse knowledge
ie farrier trimmer, owner rider breeder horse meatman or just some joe bloggs looking at the internet on a subject
what gives you right to play god to bleed a horse if not a vet ?Joe blogs will do it rolls of the tongue nicely

goeslikestink
Dec. 25, 2007, 06:26 PM
let me see now
joe bloggs - a little of no how that has a book of know how as to what i say goes

so-- you have no right to play god as not a vet to ahorse as to do with spline so untruths but more like wind up

feetwise - tell me oh so little book of knoweldge and master on none

what tools do you use to trim a frog - as in you
please answer

jack mac
Dec. 25, 2007, 06:36 PM
And you know this because? Be specific

Were you a less indiffernt reader, you would, by now, have known that whether of the NB persuasion or not, all are in general agreement that usually the hoof breaks over slightly lateral to the mid line of the hoof. And, they/we have said so ad naseum.

You still don't get it do you? For the umteenth time:
1. Horseshoes shoe with symmetrical shoes. The symmetry is dependent on the individual hoof.
2. The NB front pattern shoe is not a squared toe shoe.
3. The NB shoe is rolled on all its outside edges to allow the horse to choose where it will breakover.
4. Noothing in the protocols engenders "premature breakover", rather, correct location of breakover. Get it?
5. The NB shoe is less likely to force the limb to break over in a straight line than is a shoe that is perimeter fit and straight edged. The shoe is much less likely to force the limb to break over in a straight line than is a rolled toe shoe, a rockered toe shoe, a squared toe shoe, a shoe with a trailer, etc, ad naseum. And, I note, all the afore mentioned shoes are routinely applied by "traditional farriers" as has been taught by "traditional farriers" for centuries. Get it?
6. There is not one scintilla of proof that a correctly applied NB shoe puts the limb out of balance and/or sets the limb on a course for injury & damage, permanent or otherwise. Get it?

You have been given the contact information necessary to get these photos. Do your due dilligence. And in the mean time, post examples of your work, including trimming, shoeing, blood letting and euthanasia. have a look at this page Rick there's a lovely photo of a mustangs worn out abused hoof dont seem to match the shape of your NB shoe ;))PS i strongly dont support any of what on this page in regards to hoof care its just for a comparison to a NB shoe .: http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.easycareinc.com/_System/Lib/Image/main_pages/education/articles/roll3.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.easycareinc.com/Education/articles/mustang_roll.aspx&h=960&w=375&sz=73&hl=en&start=160&tbnid=G3mkBb_M8AbxtM:&tbnh=148&tbnw=58&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwild%2Bmustang%2Bhooves%26start%3D144 %26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D18%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa %3DN

jack mac
Dec. 25, 2007, 06:42 PM
let me see now
joe bloggs - a little of no how that has a book of know how as to what i say goes

so-- you have no right to play god as not a vet to ahorse as to do with spline so untruths but more like wind up

feetwise - tell me oh so little book of knoweldge and master on none

what tools do you use to trim a frog - as in you
please answer
i use a BVsc & a BAsc they work well ;)

goeslikestink
Dec. 25, 2007, 06:45 PM
have a look at this page Rick there's a lovely photo of a mustangs worn out abused hoof dont seem to match the shape of your NB shoe ;))PS i strongly dont support any of what on this page in regards to hoof care its just for a comparison to a NB shoe .: http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.easycareinc.com/_System/Lib/Image/main_pages/education/articles/roll3.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.easycareinc.com/Education/articles/mustang_roll.aspx&h=960&w=375&sz=73&hl=en&start=160&tbnid=G3mkBb_M8AbxtM:&tbnh=148&tbnw=58&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwild%2Bmustang%2Bhooves%26start%3D144 %26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D18%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa %3DN

they arnt wild as you surgested they are domesticated horses
you stated wild ones - wild as in wild you cant catch

goeslikestink
Dec. 25, 2007, 06:47 PM
really - like this http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m268/barefoottree/Cnv1654.jpg
you said you bleed horsesd lamnia so post a piccy

jack mac
Dec. 25, 2007, 07:56 PM
they arnt wild as you surgested they are domesticated horses
you stated wild ones - wild as in wild you cant catchThe first pic i believe it states its a wild mustangs hoof, & no i dont use photo bucket & I'm not wondering off topic again.;)

JB
Dec. 25, 2007, 09:40 PM
have a look at this page Rick there's a lovely photo of a mustangs worn out abused hoof dont seem to match the shape of your NB shoe ;))PS i strongly dont support any of what on this page in regards to hoof care its just for a comparison to a NB shoe .: http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.easycareinc.com/_System/Lib/Image/main_pages/education/articles/roll3.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.easycareinc.com/Education/articles/mustang_roll.aspx&h=960&w=375&sz=73&hl=en&start=160&tbnid=G3mkBb_M8AbxtM:&tbnh=148&tbnw=58&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwild%2Bmustang%2Bhooves%26start%3D144 %26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D18%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa %3DN

So? Where on this entire thread, or anywhere on any trimming thread, was it stated that a "wild" foot looked the same as a NB shoe? Nowhere. A NB shoe gets the breakover of a foot where it should be (hmm, sort of how a wild horse might wear it given the right environment) when trimming can't do it fast enough. For most horses, NB shoes are a short-term deal. For some, it never works. For others, they live in them the rest of their lives. Swap "eggbar" or "heartbar" or "trailers" for "NB" and you have the same type of sentence. What are you trying to say here?

JB
Dec. 25, 2007, 09:42 PM
The first pic i believe it states its a wild mustangs hoof, & no i dont use photo bucket & I'm not wondering off topic again.;)

It states "The smooth, rounded walls of an Arizona mustang". So? How long was he in captivity before he died? Was he ever captive? Besides, what does that have to do with a NB shoe?

Rick Burten
Dec. 25, 2007, 10:30 PM
I think they are expensive shoes. That hits owners in the pocket book and may be more of an argument for somebody not wanting to try the NB protocol for their horse.
My fees are the same for NB shoes as they are for any other keg shoe. In actuality, the NB shoes are not that much more expensive. Even the aluminum NB shoes compare rather favorably to other aluminum shoes of the same type.

deltawave
Dec. 25, 2007, 10:32 PM
My farrier doesn't charge any different for the NB shoes, either.

Rick Burten
Dec. 25, 2007, 10:36 PM
have a look at this page Rick there's a lovely photo of a mustangs worn out abused hoof dont seem to match the shape of your NB shoe
The bottom view of the hind foot appears to be much the same as the basic shape of the NB hind pattern shoe.

There is no clear view of the bottom of the front foot, nor is there any view of the front/dorsal wall of the hoof. Therefore, neither photo, or any of the others, supports your contentions.

jack mac
Dec. 25, 2007, 10:38 PM
So? Where on this entire thread, or anywhere on any trimming thread, was it stated that a "wild" foot looked the same as a NB shoe? Nowhere. A NB shoe gets the breakover of a foot where it should be (hmm, sort of how a wild horse might wear it given the right environment) when trimming can't do it fast enough. For most horses, NB shoes are a short-term deal. For some, it never works. For others, they live in them the rest of their lives. Swap "eggbar" or "heartbar" or "trailers" for "NB" and you have the same type of sentence. What are you trying to say here? what the!! that's the whole Bases of the NB to mimic shape & break over of that of the wild horse or have i heard the sales pitch that's been touted & rammed down ever farriers throat for all these years as the best thing since slit bread advocating its use , know your going to try & tell me that's not some worn out contracted up hoof of a mustang well get with the program know ones buying that, know take a good hard look at it , does it look like that an NB shoe even remotely mimics that hoof yes or no ? & if it did a NB shoe should fall straight on, meaning nail straight on with very very minimal alteration to a perimeter fit, or would you suggest giving that worn out foot more break over seen as the toe on you NB shoe wont match that of the worn out toe on that hoof & the NB shoe is already tapered back?

Rick Burten
Dec. 25, 2007, 10:45 PM
i heard the sales pitch that's been touted & rammed down ever farriers throat for all these years as the best thing since slit bread advocating its use
No sir! Not once, not ever have the NB protocols been rammed down anyone's throat, least of all a farrier's. Nor have you ever heard Gene, et al ever say "it is the best thing since slit bread"

know your going to try & tell me that's not some worn out contracted up hoof of a mustang well get with the program know ones buying that, know take a good hard look at it , does it look like that an NB shoe even remotely mimics that hoof yes or no ? & if it did a NB shoe should fall straight on, meaning nail straight on with very very minimal alteration to a perimeter fit, or would you suggest giving that worn out foot more break over seen as the toe on you NB shoe wont match that of the worn out toe on that hoof & the NB shoe is already tapered back?
You still fail to grasp the basic concepts and tenents of the NB protocols though they have been relayed to you several times, and though you say you have availed yourself of the literature. At this juncture, this now becomes nothing more than a circuitous argument/discussion, so I for one am getting off the merry-go-round.

jack mac
Dec. 25, 2007, 10:56 PM
The bottom view of the hind foot appears to be much the same as the basic shape of the NB hind pattern shoe.

There is no clear view of the bottom of the front foot, nor is there any view of the front/dorsal wall of the hoof. Therefore, neither photo, or any of the others, supports your contentions. What did they change the original study results!!!! did they !!!?, because one shoe was sold for all 4 feet after that so called study, the same shaped shoe same break over point, gezzzzzz what next mustang side clips & what will the story be then someone found a ring top embedded in a mustangs hoof :lol:

jack mac
Dec. 25, 2007, 11:13 PM
No sir! Not once, not ever have the NB protocols been rammed down anyone's throat, least of all a farrier's. Nor have you ever heard Gene, et al ever say "it is the best thing since slit bread"

You still fail to grasp the basic concepts and tenents of the NB protocols though they have been relayed to you several times, and though you say you have availed yourself of the literature. At this juncture, this now becomes nothing more than a circuitous argument/discussion, so I for one am getting off the merry-go-round. concepts aren't FACT holding up lemons & persisting its an orange no matter how much you try & church up the sales pitch, dose not make an orange, its still a lemon.;) by Toto

tarynls
Dec. 26, 2007, 02:33 AM
And you havent seen the latest use of leeches for plastic surgery? Geez it was on Discovery channel!

George

George, for the life of me I cannot fathom leeches draining 4-5 GALLONS. And yes, I am experienced with the use of leeches as I used to apply/remove them as an equine vet tech.

I did happen to see the Discovery Channel episode you mention and they were speaking of the use of leeches in HUMAN, not EQUINE medicine.

tarynls
Dec. 26, 2007, 03:10 AM
Realy are theses the same experts that are curring founder every day, because there success rate to date is outstanding, i think ill try there advice it seems to be reaping rewards leaps & bounds, let me tell you something expert that you might not know a large horse has a very large spleen some can hold up to 30lt or more in that spleen, I'm not advocating sending them in to shock, what part of manged blood lose didnt you get.

Hmm.

Let's see - if you KNOW how do do conversions, you would surely KNOW that a "large horse with a large spleen can hold up to 30 liters" which equals 7.92 US liquid gallons. In a previous post, you mentioned "bloodletting" 4-5 gallons. So if draining at least half the horse's blood volume won't sent them into shock, perhaps you can tell me what will.

As others have asked, why cannot you provide scientific studies or papers published by these so-called "experts that are curing founder every day" using this method? I sure can't find anything and frankly, the vets at the clinic I worked for are truly appalled when I asked them if this would be a "treatment" for founder.

Furthermore, the ONLY reference I could find advocating draining blood to "cure" founder was in a book that I referenced previously. It was first published in the late 1800's, with a reprint in 1907. See previous post. Do you pour boiling lard onto the sole after you drain gallons of blood as the book reccommends as well?

tarynls
Dec. 26, 2007, 03:21 AM
I have drained 31 litters from the spleen of a 19 hand Clydesdale, "no scientific study" that's what i drained in to the buckets make of that as you wish, there is a difference in what capacity can be held what is held & what is circulating Durrrrr :mad: & I'm growing tired of what i say taken out of context in an attempt to discredit me & divert attention away from the original topic of NB shoeing .:)

So you admit you are practicing veterinary medicine without a license by "draining blood into buckets"???? And now you admit to tapping the spleen itself and not the jugular vein???

Makes me VERY happy I do not live in Australia (where, as previously posted, jack mac is from). Are veterinary laws different in Australia? Sure hope not. A vet is a vet and a farrier is a farrier. No farrier I know of (and I know quite a few since boyfriend happens to BE a farrier) is licensed to carry needles, etc.

tarynls
Dec. 26, 2007, 04:03 AM
Now that I have finally gotten through this entire thread.....

If you truly wanted to discuss NB methods, why on earth would you even mention bloodletting? That's just a debate/heated discussion/whatever you want to call it waiting to happen. You opened your own can of worms with that one. The fact you have absoultely nothing - no literature - to back up your "methods" just makes it worse. I find it amusing you brought up the subject, then asked us if we could get back to the original subject. Perhaps you should not have strayed from the topic of your first post.

Secondly, you have mentioned you had various questions regarding NB shoeing. The website for Gene (which contains a tremendous amount of detail) was very kindly provided to you days ago. Did you take the time to look at it? It doesn't appear so since you still went on and on and on regarding NB shoes. Go right to the source - the manufacturer/developer of NB shoes. You have the contact info.

Happy_Hooves
Dec. 26, 2007, 06:16 AM
Secondly, you have mentioned you had various questions regarding NB shoeing. The website for Gene (which contains a tremendous amount of detail) was very kindly provided to you days ago. Did you take the time to look at it? It doesn't appear so since you still went on and on and on regarding NB shoes. Go right to the source - the manufacturer/developer of NB shoes. You have the contact info.

Also I have invited you to come spend a week here in maine with me and learn about proper NB shoeing. Marie is great cook and now that the kids are in college we have guest rooms avialable.

You really can't expect to bring up the whole "vampire" thing and expect the thread to stay on topic.

JSwan
Dec. 26, 2007, 06:47 AM
Sorry, I did not mean to imply that. That's why I say, 'Don't choose a practice, fiind a good practitioner'. I used to be happy with my traditional farrier with previous horses.

All I can say is, NB works better on my current horses, and several clients with foundered horses.
Katy

Very reasonable. I'm glad your horses are doing well. If anyone would like to pick apart some photos, I can post "before" pictures of The Free Horse, and some "During" and "After". One picture is of a hoof - I think it was about 3 months into NB trimming.

Anyway - I'll offer that in case the hoof people want to discuss farriery and not leeches and spleens. ;) Unless they're fried and served with onions.

This horse has not foundered (that I know of).

jack mac
Dec. 26, 2007, 07:01 AM
:lol:
Now that I have finally gotten through this entire thread.....

If you truly wanted to discuss NB methods, why on earth would you even mention bloodletting? That's just a debate/heated discussion/whatever you want to call it waiting to happen. You opened your own can of worms with that one. The fact you have absoultely nothing - no literature - to back up your "methods" just makes it worse. I find it amusing you brought up the subject, then asked us if we could get back to the original subject. Perhaps you should not have strayed from the topic of your first post.

Secondly, you have mentioned you had various questions regarding NB shoeing. The website for Gene (which contains a tremendous amount of detail) was very kindly provided to you days ago. Did you take the time to look at it? It doesn't appear so since you still went on and on and on regarding NB shoes. Go right to the source - the manufacturer/developer of NB shoes. You have the contact info. 'O' do you mean to the money men who are making a tidy million dollar profits peddling that wild horse crippling nonsense that the gullible who haven't got a clue keep lapping up ,I'm sure there going to tell everyone they have been duped, there's a real dollar in it for them doing that NOT, Know what details do you think i missed, show me the photos of the hooves that match the NB shoes & you can live in the castle Cinderella, Know what dont you get, the photos dont exist & never did, its just a concocted up theory based round a horse shoe design that could be patted ;) & so they could sell it for big bucks they had to come up with a poorly thought thru but effective natural wild mustang story that caring horse owner would lap up, as doing the best thing they can for there horses because it suppose to be natural & dont forget a shoeing application a bad won at that, that any fool can apply because the shoe doesnt fit the hoof, you just butcher the hoof to fit the shoe. ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY NOT THE WELFARE OF THE HORSE DO YOU GET IT NOW.

reillyshoe
Dec. 26, 2007, 08:20 AM
The irony of a thread like this is that while it presumably was started by a farrier looking to vent to the world their dislike for a particular shoeing protocol, it might have had the opposite effect to those reading it. Between the phlebotomy discussion and the same old arguments, Natural Balance seems more credible without saying a word!

deltawave
Dec. 26, 2007, 09:11 AM
Fried leeches, EWWWW! :lol: Onions or no, I'll pass. :p

JB
Dec. 26, 2007, 10:04 AM
what the!! that's the whole Bases of the NB to mimic shape & break over of that of the wild horse
Well duh, the goal of any trimming or shoeing protocol is to put the breakover where it belongs. Wild/feral horses usually get to do that all by themselves due to the often highly abrasive terrain they get to tromp miles over every easy. And, last I looked NB shoes come in different sizes to fit different feet, and guess what, a front shoe could be modified to fit a hind foot :eek: I think one of our very own farriers on this thread has done this a time or two.


or have i heard the sales pitch that's been touted & rammed down ever farriers throat for all these years as the best thing since slit bread advocating its use ,
Define "every farrier"? Down Under? Certainly not here. Many farriers here haven't heard of them. Huh. Sounds like a lot of your misinformation here is based on heresay and you're trying so desperately to make sound like fact.


know your going to try & tell me that's not some worn out contracted up hoof of a mustang well get with the program know ones buying that, know take a good hard look at it , does it look like that an NB shoe even remotely mimics that hoof yes or no ? & if it did a NB shoe should fall straight on, meaning nail straight on with very very minimal alteration to a perimeter fit, or would you suggest giving that worn out foot more break over seen as the toe on you NB shoe wont match that of the worn out toe on that hoof & the NB shoe is already tapered back?
LMAO! Huh? I have and had no intention of saying it was some nasty ol' poor feral horse's foot up there - it looks like a pretty darn nice foot to me. Have you not been reading real-life situations on this board, ever? On horseshoes, ever? Most horses, when they get properly balanced, healthy feet, with no pathologies higher up in the limb, don't need NB shoes, so why would you want to put one on in the first place? They were designed to help horses who DON'T have their breakover in the right place.

RAyers
Dec. 26, 2007, 10:10 AM
ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY NOT THE WELFARE OF THE HORSE DO YOU GET IT NOW.

Oh, and you are the innocent, altruistic, caring person who practices random medicine simply to help the poor horses. Admit it, you are in this business just as much for the money and NB is a threat to your life style so now you need to trash it.

How do we know you are in it for the money? From your own post #105:


well the pretty owners dont think so, they kinda pay me lots of money, shower me with gifts, some even what to have my children after i save there horse when the other vets want to put it down, there rather happy I kept my open mind & they didnt listen to the closed ones

You wouldn't do what you do if nobody paid you.

Reed

goeslikestink
Dec. 26, 2007, 10:18 AM
Oh, and you are the innocent, altruistic, caring person who practices random medicine simply to help the poor horses. Admit it, you are in this business just as much for the money and NB is a threat to your life style so now you need to trash it.

How do we know you are in it for the money? From your own post #105:



You wouldn't do what you do if nobody paid you.

Reed

true poor neds having to put up wth a bs and proabaly inpain as well and for the owners how deceptive
fraud comes to mind
i just might report you to the internet web fraud people as after all your practicing something which you should

any body want the llinks

JSwan
Dec. 26, 2007, 01:12 PM
Hey y'all - y'all were supposed to accept my invitation to post picture of The Free Horse's feet. I'm wounded.

I was going to ride but it started to pour and I'm too lazy to ride in the rain. So here I am - clean house, clean barn, nothing on tv........

Appassionato
Dec. 26, 2007, 01:32 PM
Hey y'all - y'all were supposed to accept my invitation to post picture of The Free Horse's feet. I'm wounded.

I was going to ride but it started to pour and I'm too lazy to ride in the rain. So here I am - clean house, clean barn, nothing on tv........

I don't know how I missed it, but I for sure would LOVE to see the free horse's feets! :D

Melelio
Dec. 26, 2007, 01:33 PM
J Swan, I'd love to see the feeties, too. I like to learn from others.

longview_bc
Dec. 26, 2007, 02:01 PM
:lol: 'O' do you mean to the money men who are making a tidy million dollar profits peddling that wild horse crippling nonsense that the gullible who haven't got a clue keep lapping up ,I'm sure there going to tell everyone they have been duped, there's a real dollar in it for them doing that NOT, Know what details do you think i missed, show me the photos of the hooves that match the NB shoes & you can live in the castle Cinderella, Know what dont you get, the photos dont exist & never did, its just a concocted up theory based round a horse shoe design that could be patted ;) & so they could sell it for big bucks they had to come up with a poorly thought thru but effective natural wild mustang story that caring horse owner would lap up, as doing the best thing they can for there horses because it suppose to be natural & dont forget a shoeing application a bad won at that, that any fool can apply because the shoe doesnt fit the hoof, you just butcher the hoof to fit the shoe. ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY NOT THE WELFARE OF THE HORSE DO YOU GET IT NOW.

Hi all,

Jacko,

So you have told us that you have shot some thousand horses due to poor farriery and have drained untold gallons of blood from foundered horses and know you speak of these crippled NB horses, what sort of numbers are we talking hundreds, thousands. How about telling us of just one?

Kevin

JSwan
Dec. 26, 2007, 02:07 PM
Well, okay, since you asked.... (shuffles from the corner where she'd been pouting and feeling sorry for herself because nobody loves her...)


Photo one - Day One of The Free Horse. I apologize for the mud - I had some fill brought in and it rained before the stone dust was brought in. The livestock have free access to grass at all times. This horse had really bad ulcers, bad case of rainrot, kicked or bit if you touched him, was lame, needed weight, very spooky, tense, (you get the picture.) This was in spring 2005. The horse next to him is not my horse - merely a companion he had for the trailer ride over to my place.

Photo two - this is a bad picture of his front hooves after his first trim. They looked worse when I got him.

Photo three - 2nd trim.

Photo four - five months later. No miracles - but better.

Got more but I figure y'all can tear apart these photos as much as you want if it helps the discussion at all. I'm not offering these as evidence of any one method.

For the record - I didn't use any leeches on this horse. Nor did I use magnets, tin foil hats, carrot sticks, or anything else.

Appassionato
Dec. 26, 2007, 02:23 PM
Well, I'M going to sound dumb...is the third pic with the farrier holding up the hoof a front or rear hoof? It looks SOOOO similar to Bo's rear hooves before we corrected those angles. In any case it appears like the horse might have had negative P3 angles (slight bull-nosed appearance?). Which could have caused some of his discomfort BTW.

The other pics do show a progression from icky to healthier hoof, BTW. Of course anyone can say various things about the second pic and the amount of shoe behind the heels, but I like the fact your farrier seemed to take into account that the horse needed more support behind. I'm sure various farriers here can explain what they might have done differently, but considering the number of short-shod horses out there that are also LT/LH, I'm proud for you that your farrier didn't do that!

It's also worth mentioning IMHO that this horse doesn't look too bad physically. Not that I think you were lying...well, except for the magnets, I call BS there. :lol: I've got pics of Bo in which he looks GREAT, but was sore as all get out. :winkgrin:

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl
Dec. 26, 2007, 02:31 PM
What has head trauma got to do with horseshoeing? :confused:

LOL. Depends who you ask, Lynn, depends who you ask...

JSwan
Dec. 26, 2007, 02:34 PM
Front hoof. His rear weren't that bad. Soles as flat as a pancake, though.

Yeah- that cheap camera I had never did take good photos. Let's just say he was headed for a French vacation if I didn't take him. The worst part of his condition was not his hooves - though I was appalled at such bad farriery. When the owner tells you they hate the horse and wish he was dead.... well.... let's just say this horse needed groceries, lots of meds, and Dr. Green. That much untreated rainrot pisses me off; same thing with the ulcers and weight. The photo doesn't show it but his ribs were showing.

He's also sound (with front shoes and pads..... we're going to try and lose the pads by spring). I'm not going to mess around trying to make him event barefoot. Maybe if he only worked in sand - but not on hard Virginia clay.

What the farrier was trying to do was to move that heel back - the heel was actually crushed. The horse moved up one shoe size, eventually. Gradually the toe was cut down to change the breakover, the heels allowed to expand - as well as move back to where they were supposed to be.

He turned out to be a nice horse once he wasn't in pain all the time. Of course - I did not ride him for months.... I wanted to fix him up, first.




Well, I'M going to sound dumb...is the third pic with the farrier holding up the hoof a front or rear hoof? It looks SOOOO similar to Bo's rear hooves before we corrected those angles. In any case it appears like the horse might have had negative P3 angles (slight bull-nosed appearance?). Which could have caused some of his discomfort BTW.

The other pics do show a progression from icky to healthier hoof, BTW. Of course anyone can say various things about the second pic and the amount of shoe behind the heels, but I like the fact your farrier seemed to take into account that the horse needed more support behind. I'm sure various farriers here can explain what they might have done differently, but considering the number of short-shod horses out there that are also LT/LH, I'm proud for you that your farrier didn't do that!

It's also worth mentioning IMHO that this horse doesn't look too bad physically. Not that I think you were lying...well, except for the magnets, I call BS there. :lol: I've got pics of Bo in which he looks GREAT, but was sore as all get out. :winkgrin:

Appassionato
Dec. 26, 2007, 02:42 PM
Front hoof. His rear weren't that bad. Soles as flat as a pancake, though.

Yeah- that cheap camera I had never did take good photos. Let's just say he was headed for a French vacation if I didn't take him. The worst part of his condition was not his hooves - though I was appalled at such bad farriery. When the owner tells you they hate the horse and wish he was dead.... well.... let's just say this horse needed groceries, lots of meds, and Dr. Green. That much untreated rainrot pisses me off; same thing with the ulcers and weight. The photo doesn't show it but his ribs were showing.

He's also sound (with front shoes and pads..... we're going to try and lose the pads by spring). I'm not going to mess around trying to make him event barefoot. Maybe if he only worked in sand - but not on hard Virginia clay.

LOL! I bought Bo from an owner that "hated" him too. She was shocked to hear about 2 years later how much I adored that horse. :D

Curious, what has your farrier said about his hooves? Initially, and as he's progressed? And what kind of shoeing does he have now? I mean as far as what kind of pad, what kind of shoe, is there sole relief, packing, etc.?

Moderator 1
Dec. 26, 2007, 02:48 PM
Please continue to make the effort to keep this topic on track and avoid the personal sniping or we'll have to close the thread.

Thanks.

JSwan
Dec. 26, 2007, 02:50 PM
LOL! I bought Bo from an owner that "hated" him too. She was shocked to hear about 2 years later how much I adored that horse. :D

Curious, what has your farrier said about his hooves? Initially, and as he's progressed? And what kind of shoeing does he have now? I mean as far as what kind of pad, what kind of shoe, is there sole relief, packing, etc.?

Let's see. I no longer use that farrier. I switched to a local guy who is also quite good.

We had hoped, that with continued trimming, that we could dispense with the 3 degree wedge pad (on the fronts). We also hoped we could dispense with the equithane.

Unfortunately, this past summer was murder on horses - even perfectly sound ones. I was shocked that my field hunter needed pads because the ground was so hard. It's a first for him.

Anyway - the goal is to keep that toe short and the heel supported and allowed to expand as much as possible. Rears are fine.

We have to work within the limits of what the horse can give. Nature has given him flat, shelly feet and long pasters, long back, long neck......

Wonder why none of the farriers have commented on those photos. I went to such trouble.... whine....

Oh - you do know this is Kevin Bacon's best friend, don't you?

Summer 2007:




Hmmmmm.... I guess the farriers that have been posting really aren't interested in talking about farriery, after all. One admonishment about their kennel fight and shazam - they're gone?

jack mac
Dec. 26, 2007, 03:14 PM
Well duh, the goal of any trimming or shoeing protocol is to put the breakover where it belongs. Wild/feral horses usually get to do that all by themselves due to the often highly abrasive terrain they get to tromp miles over every easy. And, last I looked NB shoes come in different sizes to fit different feet, and guess what, a front shoe could be modified to fit a hind foot :eek: I think one of our very own farriers on this thread has done this a time or two.


Define "every farrier"? Down Under? Certainly not here. Many farriers here haven't heard of them. Huh. Sounds like a lot of your misinformation here is based on heresay and you're trying so desperately to make sound like fact.


LMAO! Huh? I have and had no intention of saying it was some nasty ol' poor feral horse's foot up there - it looks like a pretty darn nice foot to me. Have you not been reading real-life situations on this board, ever? On horseshoes, ever? Most horses, when they get properly balanced, healthy feet, with no pathologies higher up in the limb, don't need NB shoes, so why would you want to put one on in the first place? They were designed to help horses who DON'T have their break over in the right place. if you think that's a healthy looking hoof then I'm afraid you need a lot lot more training, did you miss the contraction in the heels shrunken frog & the over concaved sole that happens if there is to much abrasion or should i say hoof growth that cant keep up with wear & tare, considering wild horses have a large worm burden unfloated teeth & feed rations that can fluctuate from good to very poor nutrition dependent on availability to them ,then logic should tell you hoof growth just might not be able to keep up with hoof wear & tare most of the time, So logic should tell anyone with average intelligence, that it is not a very good base to start from in determining health in a hoof nor to determine break over, learn more about the anatomy of the whole limb & how nutrition effects the growth of hooves in a horse before you start deciding were break over is :sadsmile:

jack mac
Dec. 26, 2007, 03:52 PM
Well, okay, since you asked.... (shuffles from the corner where she'd been pouting and feeling sorry for herself because nobody loves her...)


Photo one - Day One of The Free Horse. I apologize for the mud - I had some fill brought in and it rained before the stone dust was brought in. The livestock have free access to grass at all times. This horse had really bad ulcers, bad case of rainrot, kicked or bit if you touched him, was lame, needed weight, very spooky, tense, (you get the picture.) This was in spring 2005. The horse next to him is not my horse - merely a companion he had for the trailer ride over to my place.

Photo two - this is a bad picture of his front hooves after his first trim. They looked worse when I got him.

Photo three - 2nd trim.

Photo four - five months later. No miracles - but better.

Got more but I figure y'all can tear apart these photos as much as you want if it helps the discussion at all. I'm not offering these as evidence of any one method.

For the record - I didn't use any leeches on this horse. Nor did I use magnets, tin foil hats, carrot sticks, or anything else.id be doing away with propping up the heels he has long pasterns, so he will have what are called false heels meaning there set under the hoof more, most horses with long pasterns do, propping him up is the wrong thing to do in horses with those characteristics, you just leave the heels a little longer on the shoe & fit the heels using the frog & bulbs as your guide :)

Appassionato
Dec. 26, 2007, 04:14 PM
Let's see. I no longer use that farrier. I switched to a local guy who is also quite good.

We had hoped, that with continued trimming, that we could dispense with the 3 degree wedge pad (on the fronts). We also hoped we could dispense with the equithane.

Unfortunately, this past summer was murder on horses - even perfectly sound ones. I was shocked that my field hunter needed pads because the ground was so hard. It's a first for him.

Anyway - the goal is to keep that toe short and the heel supported and allowed to expand as much as possible. Rears are fine.

We have to work within the limits of what the horse can give. Nature has given him flat, shelly feet and long pasters, long back, long neck......

Wonder why none of the farriers have commented on those photos. I went to such trouble.... whine....

Oh - you do know this is Kevin Bacon's best friend, don't you?

Summer 2007:




Hmmmmm.... I guess the farriers that have been posting really aren't interested in talking about farriery, after all. One admonishment about their kennel fight and shazam - they're gone?

That is too cool about the horse having a pig for a friend! One of the funnier moments I've had with bo involved a pig farm nearby. A culvert (sp?) was a jump on our XC course (lower level stuff), and this "pipe" ran to a nearby pig farm. When I walked the course, everything was fine. When Bo and I went out on course, I guess it was feeding time, the culvert was "oinking" at Bo and absolutely scaring him to death! I was laughing so hard I almost fell off. :lol:

About this past summer, I know what you mean. Bo went barefoot during the rains and was fine...then it dried out. OMG, I thought he might have been re-foundering on me even. He was MORE than sore, and it came on suddenly. Even once Bo was shod it was a while before he was "sound" on the front due to how darned hard the ground was.

FWIW, I really liked the Morrison Roller Motion shoes Bo was in when he was in Sigafoos (available without Sigafoos cuff too). An ever so slight wedge, but rockered both in front at the toe AND at the heels. That or something like it might be a thought for your boy as he tries to come down in wedging. I'm no farrier of course, just speaking from my experience with a LT/LH horse. :winkgrin:

As far as the shelly walls, upping protein did help Bo some, but it isn't going to turn Bo into a rock cruncher. Do the nails tear his walls? When I ran into that problem (before Jaye), I found Keratex Hoof Hardener to be a Godsend!

Auventera Two
Dec. 26, 2007, 04:15 PM
How can you guys tell anything at all from those photos? The feet are obscured, the photos are very blurry, and distant, and well - you just can't "see" anything in them. :confused:

Appassionato
Dec. 26, 2007, 04:24 PM
How can you guys tell anything at all from those photos? The feet are obscured, the photos are very blurry, and distant, and well - you just can't "see" anything in them. :confused:

I'm making some pretty general observations from whatever angle the photos are taken from. It's not the best, no, but I'm just giving what I can see...as well as taking from J Swan's observations.

matryoshka
Dec. 26, 2007, 04:24 PM
The irony of a thread like this is that while it presumably was started by a farrier looking to vent to the world their dislike for a particular shoeing protocol, it might have had the opposite effect to those reading it. Between the phlebotomy discussion and the same old arguments, Natural Balance seems more credible without saying a word!
Good point!! Even though there is interest in hooves on this site, it is not a site dedicated to farriery, so it seems like the wrong place for a farrier to vent about a particular shoeing protocol, especially since he keeps ranting about some claim that NB shoes mimic feral hooves. Nobody is arguing that they mimic wild hooves, so there is no argument, is there?

Because of some of the hooves I've seen and how they respond to different trimming techniques, I think the NB protocols have merit. Unless it is proven how NB techniques hurt horses, I'm not going to believe otherwise. Proof, studies, even anecdotes of horses lamed through the use of properly applied NB protocols (not just NB shoes slapped on by somebody not familiar with the methods). I've already seen rim-fit NB shoes, and it was not a pretty sight!!

As a result of this discussion, I'm about ready to go buy an shoeing tools and head to someplace where I can learn the NB shoeing protocols!! I think I have the hang of his trimming methods by now. :D Maybe that way I can keep some of my favorite clients who have moved onto a level of competition where shoes are an asset.

matryoshka
Dec. 26, 2007, 04:40 PM
JSwan,

I think the pictures show a lot of improvement, meaning your farrier is on the right track. I don't shoe, so I couldn't tell you what I'd have done as far as shoes go. I do like that the heel is supported and the farrier is bringing the breakover back. Those crushed heels look nasty in the second pic. It takes me a while (using trimming alone) to get crushed or severely run forward heels to stand up a bit. And on some horses, they never do.

He looks awesome in the more recent pic you posted. I wouldn't have thought it was the same horse!

I, too, have seen horses in worse condition (and worse feet) than your guy, but then again, I'm involved in horse rescue. It is wonderful that you took this horse and brought him around so well. Kudos to you and to your farrier.

BTW, for evaluation, farriers like to see pics from down near the feet, front, back, side, and palmar views. Off-angle views from above the ground level are difficult to tell much from as far as a pertinent critique go. I guess you weren't thinking of making this horse into a study for the rest of us--at least you took pictures. I'm a trimmer, and I often forget to take pics of some of the horrible feet that walk into our lives. As soon as I see unhealthy feet, my hands itch for my tools to start the process of getting them into better shape.

JSwan
Dec. 26, 2007, 05:30 PM
I think y'all will be pleased to know that I got a "real" digital camera for Christmas. So no more blurry photos with lousy pixles. My next "free to good home come take him or he's going to New Holland" will make for better viewing. I have indeed seen many horses in much worse shape. In his case - my disgust was more due to the fact that his owner was extremely wealthy - but had made a choice to allow this horse to deteriorate.

That pisses me off.

I do apologize for the photos - it was the best I could do at the time. Though I'm not a farrier, I would take exception to any characterization of this horse as having a false heel. Unless my understanding of that phrase is wrong. If so - perhaps a "foot fanatic" could post examples of such a condition so that we could take a gander to compare.

If anyone is interested - I could take a decent photo of his feet next trimming. However, since the horse is sound and happy - I'm content to allow my farrier to continue to do his work. I really just posted the photos to get the thread back on track.

Asspants - we did have problems with nails - but no longer. Any difficulty we had with this horse was resolved over time - as new healthy hoof growth replaced the old hoof. Still - compared to my half drafts - his feet are typical crappy TB feet. These photos (except the summer 2007) are two years old. He looks and acts completely different.

Uh - maybe a few more will be helpful if folks want to continue the discussion. Or not.

first photo - may 2005, I think. Second and third - winter 2006.

jack mac
Dec. 26, 2007, 05:32 PM
Good point!! Even though there is interest in hooves on this site, it is not a site dedicated to farriery, so it seems like the wrong place for a farrier to vent about a particular shoeing protocol, especially since he keeps ranting about some claim that NB shoes mimic feral hooves. Nobody is arguing that they mimic wild hooves, so there is no argument, is there?

Because of some of the hooves I've seen and how they respond to different trimming techniques, I think the NB protocols have merit. Unless it is proven how NB techniques hurt horses, I'm not going to believe otherwise. Proof, studies, even anecdotes of horses lamed through the use of properly applied NB protocols (not just NB shoes slapped on by somebody not familiar with the methods). I've already seen rim-fit NB shoes, and it was not a pretty sight!!

As a result of this discussion, I'm about ready to go buy an shoeing tools and head to someplace where I can learn the NB shoeing protocols!! I think I have the hang of his trimming methods by now. :D Maybe that way I can keep some of my favorite clients who have moved onto a level of competition where shoes are an asset. See that's the whole point you are basing what you believe on a sales pitch nothing more, were are the NB studies that prove they produce the proper brake over a horse requires to perform to his best with minimal injure not just assumption, its not as if they haven't be on the market for years & tried, have they be proved to provide proper break over no, in fact the horses racing over here & wining racers in great times are not wearing NB plates or shoes that facts speak for it self & there is no better test then horses galloping flat out to see if they have proper break over, if they dont they lose ground over reach brush speedy cut stubble jar up & break down, how many horses ran in NB in the 2007 Melbourne cup the biggest & richest race in the southern hemisphere which the whole country stops for the day, answer none, why doesn't that not surprise me, because i know better , but it should surprise you if you believe your going to provide better natural break over with NB shoes, because the proof they do, is just not there ;).

matryoshka
Dec. 26, 2007, 06:00 PM
Well, let's see. I haven't heard a single sales pitch about NB shoes. I've looked at the shoes and I know my horse's feet. He needs his breakover brought back. Before I saw the NB shoes, I was wondering what would be the best way to modify a keg shoe to get what he needs. Perimeter fit shoes would only work for the first week or so, and then his toes would be too far forward. I've been trimming his feet for 3 years now, and he's got the toughest case of flat feet and weak walls that I've had to deal with. His soles were convex, wall shelly, and the feet were shallow from coronet to ground when he first came off the track. So, any shoe I would choose for him would have to keep the ground I've gained through frequent trimming AND I'd have to be sure he didn't end up in the same condition he retired from racing in.

So, I'm using my own brain. I've got other horses that would be/have been fine in regular shoes. I think the NB's might be better for them, but the regular shoes are fine.

The trim on www.hopeforesoundness (http://www.hopeforesoundness) has only been effecive for my horses when combined with some other methods. I DO use their trim for certain horses. It all depends on what the horse's problem is, if any.

You can say that I don't know *** because I disagree with you. You are entitled to your opinion.

As for race horses and NB shoeing, that would not be done because most race people seem to think that long toes are necessary for a horse to run at his fastest. I know this because I worked at a lay-up farm where horses recovered from surgery or for rests. Not only was this a frequent topic of discussion, but every horse that came in got his toes brought back for optimum health during his recovery. They'd come back from another stint of racing with long toes. I would also venture to say that racehorse people aren't interested in their horses being sound for more than a handful of years. They get shod for speed, not longterm soundness. I honestly don't know whether NB is better for longterm soundness than regular shoes.

For now, I'm keeping my horse (who I do endurance with) barefoot and use boots for trail riding. He cannot do trails without some form of hoof protection. There is a boot designed for his particular hoof shape, but they aren't designed for distance riding. So I combine two different-sized Easyboots to get the boot shape he needs without causing him rubs or other soreness. I still don't know whether this will work for him since we haven't had a chance to complete a competetive ride yet. It's all theory until we hit the trail for real. I can say that the Easyboots worked great for the first part of the one ride we tried until my junior rider ran into problems and I had to RO. BTW, my horse is a decently bred TB. His feet are his only conformational fault.

I read Dr. Rooney's lameness book, and I subscribed to a lot of the opinions/information he states there. That is where I get my ideas of optimal breakover from, and I haven't seen published work that convinces me otherwise. I don't know whether he even mentioned NB in his book. I loaned my copy out to somebody and can't remember who. I need to purchase it again so I can use it for reference.

I'm also decently versed in physics from my college days. That helps me a lot when trying to decide what is best for a horse. After that, I can tell from the growth whether I'm on the right track or not. I don't believe something simply because Mr./Ms. X says it is so. That includes you.

matryoshka
Dec. 26, 2007, 06:08 PM
JSwan, I'd love to see some pics of your horse's feet as they are now. We often seen before/after pics of horses being rehabbed barefoot, so it would be cool to see some before/after pics of a horse being rehabbed with shoes. It'll give you a chance to use your fancy new camera. ;)

JSwan
Dec. 26, 2007, 06:27 PM
Sure. As I mentioned previously - we were hoping to lose the wedge pads (3 degree) - but as of the December shoeing the farrier decided against it. We'll revisit the possibility again in the spring.

He is not currently being trimmed/shod using NB specifically. The next appt is Jan 3rd - he may look a bit due for a trim. I'll take the photo anyway and you can let me know if you want more during/after his shoeing. That way you have several to choose from.

Will that work?

Happy_Hooves
Dec. 26, 2007, 06:32 PM
in fact the horses racing over here & wining racers in great times are not wearing NB plates or shoes that facts speak for it self & there is no better test then horses galloping flat out to see if they have proper break over, if they dont they lose ground over reach brush speedy cut stubble jar up & break down,

Gene was telling me the other day that several very large TB operations in the US are using the Silver Queens (The NB aluminum race plates) and have seen the breakdown rate of the TB's decrease by 37% over perimiter fit race plates and more importantly the earnings of thier horses has increased by 51%. Will this catch on? Well Gene said the trainers involved are not very interested in sharing this information with the trainers of the horses that they race against. But good ideas have a way of getting around.

Just keep shoeing your runners with stacked heels/long toes and the biggest toe grabs you can purchase.

JB
Dec. 26, 2007, 06:33 PM
if you think that's a healthy looking hoof then I'm afraid you need a lot lot more training, did you miss the contraction in the heels shrunken frog & the over concaved sole that happens if there is to much abrasion or should i say hoof growth that cant keep up with wear & tare,
I'm not even sure what to say to there being so much abrasion that it creates too much concavity :confused: How do you know it's "over concaved"? What is that definition? You don't even know the size of that foot. You don't even know if it's a front or hind foot. There are quite a few wild feet that have what I guess you consider "sick" frogs - frogs that have compacted greatly due to their hard, rocky environment. I guess you expect all frogs, period, to be full and succulent looking? You obviously haven't been around too many pictures of healthy, wild feet.


considering wild horses have a large worm burden unfloated teeth & feed rations that can fluctuate from good to very poor nutrition dependent on availability to them ,then logic should tell you hoof growth just might not be able to keep up with hoof wear & tare most of the time,
By that logic, the horses should be walking on nubs then, and if that's the case, they would be pretty lame and unable to move around their environment much. Interesting...


So logic should tell anyone with average intelligence, that it is not a very good base to start from in determining health in a hoof nor to determine break over, learn more about the anatomy of the whole limb & how nutrition effects the growth of hooves in a horse before you start deciding were break over is :sadsmile:
Ok, so, tell us where YOU place the breakover of a foot? How far is it from what points on the hoof, and how do you find those other points? YOUR words, DON'T tell me to google it, DON'T point me to a website that tells me these things, I've already been there.

matryoshka
Dec. 26, 2007, 07:01 PM
I'd love to see the pics. Be sure to say how many weeks since the last shoeing or people may go off the deep end. Thanks for sharing!

Appassionato
Dec. 26, 2007, 07:19 PM
Asspants - we did have problems with nails - but no longer. Any difficulty we had with this horse was resolved over time - as new healthy hoof growth replaced the old hoof. Still - compared to my half drafts - his feet are typical crappy TB feet. These photos (except the summer 2007) are two years old. He looks and acts completely different.

Uh - maybe a few more will be helpful if folks want to continue the discussion. Or not.

first photo - may 2005, I think. Second and third - winter 2006.

I understand your anger at the former owners; I've seen that a lot too. I don't have a lot of money as a full time student living on student loans, but at least I try! And I did everything possible about working with farriers in my area. It wasn't going to work, and they were going to kill my horse. So it's off to Jaye's we go for a while.

And boy am I familiar with flat feets. What the folks are talking about in regards to "how to take hoof pics" is something like this:

http://pets.webshots.com/album/560046688HJyQDL

I'm not perfect at it, but I can usually get enough to get info across to the reader. You can see in some of the shots where I tried to show problem areas (such as the bulging at the toe/sole). He didn't re-founder, his walls are just THAT short. It's been quite complicated to shoe him, you can't ask his detached walls to bear that much weight, but you can't "perimeter fit" the sole either:

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2939058980097055594AMVrXf
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2249831720097055594UgxHXH

So I of all people know how difficult your situation can be. Hence I don't want to come off as picking at you or the farrier. ;)

Oh, and another note about pics on the shoeing days: it's really cool when you can get before AND after shots, to see what, where, and how much is taken off. But that's a lot of work and completely up to you.

Curious, the degree pads yuo guys are using...are they full pads? Are they rim pads? Do the shoes have sole relief (sometimes by grinding the inner part of the shoe at the sole surface)? The equipac, how is it administered? Again, I'm not going to pick at you, I know what Bo likes (Jaye too, but more than I do obviously :D)...but in that I like learning about hooves I'm naturally curious. And who knows, you may find something that worked for Bo that works for this guy. Another curiousity, did/does your horse have caudal heel pain? It seems to be common with the LT/LH types, hence I'm asking.

And hey, I'd love to see the other feets too if you get a chance!

JSwan
Dec. 26, 2007, 07:36 PM
Thanks for the links. It will help at shoeing time.

The pads are full pads; black plastic. Equithane is shot in through the heel with duct tape around the hoof wall to ensure it doesn't leak out. The pads are flat - there is no sole relief.

I don't recall him having any heel pain. It is odd - you'd expect him to. My memory may be faulty on that point, though. I should let y'all know that the farrier who worked on this horse is a veterinarian - so I did have the benefit of a vet's input on this horse's condition and health - as well has his hoof health.

I don't think y'all are picking on me or the farrier - like I said I just threw these photos up because for once, I'd like all these damn hoof experts to sh** or get off the pot. So far - none of the guys in the kennel fight have explained exactly why a particular method is bad for ever and ever amen. It would be nice if they had a good photo - like a before and after - and illustrated it.

Since this particular horse is no longer trimmed/shod in exact accordance with Gene's method, I'd hope that it would at least garner some interest - as the NB method worked as well as my current farrier's method. (what that is - I don't know). I guess one could assert that NB was, at most, not completely ineffective.

In my case - the horse is fine, so I'm not inclined to change anything in his management. I got him where I want him. I hope to get this horse showing this summer - a horse trial would be great. Of course- I said that last summer. :no:

tarynls
Dec. 26, 2007, 07:37 PM
:lol: 'O' do you mean to the money men who are making a tidy million dollar profits peddling that wild horse crippling nonsense that the gullible who haven't got a clue keep lapping up ,I'm sure there going to tell everyone they have been duped, there's a real dollar in it for them doing that NOT, Know what details do you think i missed, show me the photos of the hooves that match the NB shoes & you can live in the castle Cinderella, Know what dont you get, the photos dont exist & never did, its just a concocted up theory based round a horse shoe design that could be patted ;) & so they could sell it for big bucks they had to come up with a poorly thought thru but effective natural wild mustang story that caring horse owner would lap up, as doing the best thing they can for there horses because it suppose to be natural & dont forget a shoeing application a bad won at that, that any fool can apply because the shoe doesnt fit the hoof, you just butcher the hoof to fit the shoe. ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY NOT THE WELFARE OF THE HORSE DO YOU GET IT NOW.


NO SIR. How about expanding your education and knowledge base by researching the theory? Doesn't mean you have to USE the shoes.

As far as your comment that it's "all about the money", farriers have posted on here stating they charge the same amount to a client whether they shoe with keg shoes or NB shoes. I know for a FACT that the ONE horse my boyfriend uses NB shoes on is not charged any more than anyone else. Funny how that ONE horse is now walking soundly and not tripping every other stride since application of said shoe. That alone makes you look uneducated since you cite "the welfare of the horse". I believe the shoe has it's uses in very specialized cases.

For your information, boyfriend has approx. 200 head to work on. Gee, ONE horse out of approx. 200 head he has in NB shoes. Guess he must be a butcher.

Please don't call me Cinderella. I will NOT stoop to your childish level and start calling YOU names. I was done with that when I was five years old.

You must be psychic if you "know what I don't get".

Please do not ask me if I "get your point now" because guess what?? You never had one to begin with. You started a thread regarding NB shoeing and turned it into a complete disaster with all your bloodletting stories.

By the way, I noticed you mentioned you have a BVSc degree. Can you please enlighten us as to what university awarded you that degree?

matryoshka
Dec. 26, 2007, 07:38 PM
Thanks for posting the pics again Appass. ...And hence the nickname, "Flip Flop Woman" :lol:.

Appassionato
Dec. 26, 2007, 07:45 PM
Cool J Swan, and thanks for taking my comments how I meant them. :winkgrin: In regards to heel pain, be sure to mention to this guy that you're interested in staying on top of it...I sure wish I had. Bo's caudal heel pain, dubbed "Navicular Syndrome" for years...was actually P.O. that eventually led to founder. NO, I don't think your guy is walking at the brink of death, just something to have plugged into the back of your mind if he starts showing that kind of pain or "stinging" from hard ground that no one else is stung by. JUST food for thought, this is NOT a diagnosis. Just an obs. ;)

When Bo was in wedge pads, he had the rim style wedges and the equipak CS was loaded into the entire foot, with Bo weighting only that leg (lifting the other leg up). That way he only got the effects of equipak under heavier loading that just while standing there. Fully packing with equipak would make him sore, it's more "bubble" than he can stand to have.

LOL matryoshka! You know it! And folks, just FYI, I don't get around another horse with flip flops on. I will around Bo, yes I can get hurt, but I don't see enough helmet wearers out there worried enough about their safety to wear their turtlebacks either yet I do on a horse I don't know...so there! :p

Tom Stovall
Dec. 26, 2007, 07:45 PM
matryoshka in gray, deletia

As for race horses and NB shoeing, that would not be done because most Rrace people seem to think that long toes are necessary for a horse to run at his fastest. I know this because I worked at a lay-up farm where horses recovered from surgery or for rests.

No disrespect intended, but I don't think your personal database is quite large enough to make sweeping generalizations about "most" race horse people think. In my personal experience, which includes match tracks, fair tracks, and parimutuel tracks, mostly in Colorado, Oklahoma, Louisiana, and Texas, the "long toes means long stride" theory went the way of the Passenger Pigeon about 30 years ago - today, most TBs running on dirt aren't even shod with grabs in front. If you have any doubts, simply hang out at the saddling paddock at any major race track in the US and look down before you look up. :)

Not only was this a frequent topic of discussion, but every horse that came in got his toes brought back for optimum health during his recovery. They'd come back from another stint of racing with long toes.

The fact a horse goes to the farm with long toes does not mean the horse raced with long toes; more likely, it means a plater was told something like, "Skip the cripples, we're shipping 'em to the farm next week." IME, trainers don't shoe horses leaving the barn.

I would also venture to say that racehorse people aren't interested in their horses being sound for more than a handful of years.

Surely you wouldn't say anything that silly! If a horse of whatever class can hold the money together, the longer the horse runs, the more money its connections make - which means the horse's connections have vested interest in keeping the horse sound. That said, one of the Great Truths of the backside is this: "Any horse that can run fast enough to hurt himself probably will."

They get shod for speed, not longterm soundness.

How exactly does one plate a flat racer for speed (maximum biomechanical efficiency) without also optimizing the possibility of long term soundness? Ad absurdum: Less efficiency means the horse has to work harder to run, a thing that does not bode well for long term - or short term - soundness.

I honestly don't know whether NB is better for longterm soundness than regular shoes.

NB has not found favor at the track mainly because it does not adequately differentiate between the primary functions of fronts and hinds.

I'm also decently versed in physics from my college days. That helps me a lot when trying to decide what is best for a horse. After that, I can tell from the growth whether I'm on the right track or not.

When it comes to a runner's biomechanical efficiency, stopwatches and cameras are used for objective quantification and opinions don't count.

I don't believe something simply because Mr./Ms. X says it is so. That includes you.

Since you're up on the physics angle, suffice to say that plating flat racers is
about successfully addressing different primary functions and balancing leverage - and what is efficient on one end is not necessarily efficient on the other.

JSwan
Dec. 26, 2007, 08:01 PM
Yeah - I keep an eye on this horse. He was sore the other day - lost a shoe. I'm like - hmmm - ok - fixed him up, got the shoe back on.... waited.

Decided not to freak once I saw him racing around like an idiot. The buckfartgallop was the clincher.

However, if this horse is going to have a real problem - it will most likely manifest in the hooves. I can just tell, being around horses for 30 years - well, you just know.

Anyway - One really doesn't know how a horse is going to do until he/she starts in serious work. That's when things either pay off, or go downhill. Hopefully, in both our cases, things will pay off.

The Free Horse is too nice a horse merely to sit in a field and grow old and stiff. Yours isn't too shabby, either. ;):)

Some folks find it odd that I'm pro-slaughter and yet would take in a horse that was headed that way, especially since the horse has cost me a fortune to fix up, and I promised his owner I would keep him for life.

Well - let's just say it's as odd as a person wearing flip flops to the barn! You're nuts - I'm so clumsy I step on my OWN feet! Ack!:lol:


Cool J Swan, and thanks for taking my comments how I meant them.

Appassionato
Dec. 26, 2007, 08:12 PM
Ah yes, the buckfartgallop! It is a good indication of "I'm not quite ready to die yet." in Bo-speak. He gave quite a show of it on Christmas Eve (last starvie left, and THAT one was Bo's girlfriend) and doggone it, I did NOT know she was leaving that day so there was NO video. He was doing some Hella cool stuff on some nasty joints. :rolleyes::lol:

Glad to hear your boy recovered from the "soreness" of sorts and was back to normal! He's a good looking fella and that's the body type I personally prefered to both event and hunt on. I just wish Bo had better doggone feet! :winkgrin:

Oh yeah, what really trips folks out is when I walk into the chicken coop in flip flops...the city slickers faint dead away. Hey, guess I'm somewhat protected from H5N1?

JB
Dec. 26, 2007, 08:28 PM
No disrespect intended, but I don't think your personal database is quite large enough to make sweeping generalizations about "most" race horse people think. In my personal experience, which includes match tracks, fair tracks, and parimutuel tracks, mostly in Colorado, Oklahoma, Louisiana, and Texas, the "long toes means long stride" theory went the way of the Passenger Pigeon about 30 years ago - today, most TBs running on dirt aren't even shod with grabs in front. If you have any doubts, simply hang out at the saddling paddock at any major race track in the US and look down before you look up. :)
Careful Tom, now YOU are making sweeping generalizations. Have you ever taken some time to look at the pictures of CANTER horses on the various pages? I'd say more than 50% of them - more by quite a bit - have long toes. And they are not a product of "skip the cripples this time" because it's painfully clear that the toes are flared all the way to the coronet band much of the time. Maybe most TBs running stakes races at bigger tracks under bigger name trainers don't have toe grabs, but you forget about the MORE horses running on "backyard" tracks where horses are treated as much more of a commodity than anything else.

Tom Stovall
Dec. 26, 2007, 09:02 PM
JB in gray

Careful Tom, now YOU are making sweeping generalizations. Have you ever taken some time to look at the pictures of CANTER horses on the various pages?

I tend to rely on personal observation, not websites. How about you?

I'd say more than 50% of them - more by quite a bit - have long toes.

Which means?

And they are not a product of "skip the cripples this time" because it's painfully clear that the toes are flared all the way to the coronet band much of the time.

Seeing the first race horse with toes "flared all the way to the coronet band" will be a new experience for me - and I had my first license in a parimutuel jurisdiction in 1973.

Maybe most TBs running stakes races at bigger tracks under bigger name trainers don't have toe grabs, but you forget about the MORE horses running on "backyard" tracks where horses are treated as much more of a commodity than anything else.

I have trouble remembering grandkid's birthdays, but haven't forgotten a whole helluva lot about plating flat racers. IME, it's much more difficult to hold a cheap claimer together than a stakes horse and it's infinitely more difficult to assess, address, and maintain maximum biomechanical efficiency with a cheap horse than a nice horse. Put another way, anybody can nail plates on a stakes horse but it takes a helluva hand to move a $1,000 claimer to $1,250.

On the other hand, you are correct in that racetrackers tend to view horses much as I do, as a means to achieving some end, not the end itself. There is very little "I wuv my horsy" mentality on the backside of a racetrack, but most experienced grooms on the backside have forgotten more about horses than folks on the other side of the fence will ever know. :)

JB
Dec. 26, 2007, 09:17 PM
I tend to rely on personal observation, not websites. How about you?

http://www.canterusa.org/midatlantic/sale/salephotos/MA-C07-199_1.jpg
http://www.canterusa.org/midatlantic/sale/salephotos/Scalp1.jpg
http://www.canterusa.org/michigan/sale/img_Trainer/SlickRicJUL07.jpg
http://www.canterusa.org/michigan/sale/img_Trainer/SeaLove.jpg
http://www.canterusa.org/michigan/sale/img_Trainer/ItsTerko.jpg
http://www.canterusa.org/pennsylvania/horses/images/MrTweal-1.jpg

I randomly chose about a dozen horses from different CANTER sites and just clicked. I found the above. Maybe I'm just psychic about picking ones with unbalanced feet. I don't need to personally see the horse to know these feet need help.

As I and others have said before, you tend to generalize about what you see in your area. Fair enough. But you cannot continue to say that just because "our" observations don't jive with yours means that we are wrong.

Tom Stovall
Dec. 26, 2007, 09:50 PM
JB in gray

http://www.canterusa.org/midatlantic/sale/salephotos/MA-C07-199_1.jpg
http://www.canterusa.org/midatlantic/sale/salephotos/Scalp1.jpg
http://www.canterusa.org/michigan/sale/img_Trainer/SlickRicJUL07.jpg
http://www.canterusa.org/michigan/sale/img_Trainer/SeaLove.jpg
http://www.canterusa.org/michigan/sale/img_Trainer/ItsTerko.jpg
http://www.canterusa.org/pennsylvania/horses/images/MrTweal-1.jpg

I randomly chose about a dozen horses from different CANTER sites and just clicked. I found the above. Maybe I'm just psychic about picking ones with unbalanced feet. I don't need to personally see the horse to know these feet need help.

Again, so what? Are these horses supposed to be race horses in training? I see pictures of horses that need shoeing, some missing shoes, on a site dedicated to the care of EX-race horses. I didn't see any horses in race training. As advertised, trainers don't spend a helluva lot of money plating horses that're leaving the barn and these are either gone or going.

As I and others have said before, you tend to generalize about what you see in your area.

True, but my "area" has been the backside of tracks from Texas to Nebraska. I tend to rely on personal observation, what I've seen up close and personal, not pictures on websites, or the war stories from folks with an agenda.

Fair enough. But you cannot continue to say that just because "our" observations don't jive with yours means that we are wrong.

Sure I can! You're attempting to criticize the foot care of race horses, apparently without bothering to visit the backside of a race track. Have you ever been on the backside of a parimutuel track? Licensed in any capacity? Hell, when was the last time you went to the races? As advertised, if you want to know a little something about the feet of race horses, visit the saddling paddock of a race track, check out the horses' feet, then get back to me on this, toes "flared all the way to the coronet band" business. :)

jack mac
Dec. 27, 2007, 01:40 AM
http://www.canterusa.org/midatlantic/sale/salephotos/MA-C07-199_1.jpg
http://www.canterusa.org/midatlantic/sale/salephotos/Scalp1.jpg
http://www.canterusa.org/michigan/sale/img_Trainer/SlickRicJUL07.jpg
http://www.canterusa.org/michigan/sale/img_Trainer/SeaLove.jpg
http://www.canterusa.org/michigan/sale/img_Trainer/ItsTerko.jpg
http://www.canterusa.org/pennsylvania/horses/images/MrTweal-1.jpg

I randomly chose about a dozen horses from different CANTER sites and just clicked. I found the above. Maybe I'm just psychic about picking ones with unbalanced feet. I don't need to personally see the horse to know these feet need help.

As I and others have said before, you tend to generalize about what you see in your area. Fair enough. But you cannot continue to say that just because "our" observations don't jive with yours means that we are wrong.what makes me laugh is just how much you dont know about race horses & there hooves & what happens to those feet when you feed a horse high levels of proteins & carbohydrates, extra vitamins & minerals in there diet ferritin supplements & vitamin b shots not to mention pre muscle enhancing steroids when they first come back in to training & just after 6 weeks of per race work uric acid & lactic acids concentrates are at the higher scale as well as retinoic acid levels in the blood ,with the increase of work, his spleen enlarges to store more red cells & his liver kidneys & spleen have to work over time to proses & filter bloods & to add to that his pituitary, thyroids, penal, adrenal, glands & lymphatics have to work over time so what do you think happens to his feet ?, well ill tell you seen as you might be a little wet behind the ears, the pedal bone enlarges & the sole drops, depending on how well his liver is coping will determine whether his soles becomes fleshy or thin & brittle the same will reflect in the horn of the hoof & some develop pantie dish like feet with collapsed heel & sand cracks , if continued for a long enough period lamina founder & some do, want to tell me & tom all about shoeing races horses, id gladly put my house up on Tom S years of knowledge experience & ability as a farrier, know why dont you tell us how many race horses you have shod jb?? we all know Toms shod plenty & then some :mad:

jack mac
Dec. 27, 2007, 05:04 AM
Know that's the true "balance" good farriers keeping those horses sound while all those changes are taking place to there feet, they try there dam Best to keep those tows back as far as they can with out injuring the hoof & keep them horses running at there best, & there some weird & not so wonderful changes can take place to those hoofs, & that takes skill talent & experience to keep them horses on the track & not one shoe fits all NB dogma, to coin Tom S it depends, that's what trainers pay you for they need your depends to get them round that track & in the winners circle, they dont win races you dont have a job its that simple, that's why you wont find NB on any of the winning gallops over here or on any Melbourne cup winners, running last all the time doesnt pay the chaff bill,

Happy_Hooves
Dec. 27, 2007, 06:30 AM
Jack,

Given all the pathological changes to the feet and body of the racehorse (that you describe in detail) due to the unique set of horsekeeping practices of the racehorse in heavy work it is not suprizing that such profound distortion can be found in these feet.

Why pray tell do you not want to address this distortion?

Perimiter fitting these feet makes no sense whatsoever.