Highspeed video recording barefoot/shod horse hoof touchdown [Archive]

Appassionato

Dec. 20, 2007, 11:48 PM

Accurate? How could it be inaccurate? What are you saying, it might be fake?
As expected, the people that won't want to believe it will find their reasons and rationalizations.

You know, I agree with this. Bo did better without hind shoes as far as "grip" because so little is known about hind hooves and their different abnormalities. As I've mentioned before, I was on one of the few ** horses competing with keg shoes instead of studs. We digress, but...

Interesting how the bare foot has such a beautiful heel first landing and no toe-flip like the shod one.

See, I had problems with both hoof landings. I don;t know which speed they were going at to correctly compare them. My own horse would "toe flick" in a medium and at a gallop at times, yet now lands much like the barefoothorse seen but his shoulders appear stiff doing so when looking at the whole horse...ack this learning stuff gets hard at times! :winkgrin:

Dannie0303

Dec. 21, 2007, 12:37 AM

This video makes me glad my boy is barefoot after we went trotting across pavement on a trail ride today :)

J Swan

Dec. 21, 2007, 09:32 AM

Uh - exactly what's the point?

Each video shows concussion. The video of the barefoot horse shows a darker, hairier leg that doesn't show the concussion as much.

Every step a horse takes is concussive. If each horse was shown trotting in mud - the concussion would be different. The horse with shoes might not slip as much. Every step we take, or our horses take, is stressful on some part of the body. It's normal.

You can't take one little video and extrapolate to prove some immutable truth. People will see what they want to see.

I see nothing in this video, or in any of the "barefoot only" advocates that leads me to believe that either method is inherently superior. What I do see is a lot of folks who are rather strident and unyielding in their opinion that an unshod horse is a superior method of management. It isn't - just as shoes on every horse is not the "only" way.

Plus - no offense - but a lot of y'all don't seem to be serious competitors or riders. While a lot of pleasure horses can go barefoot their entire lives (with good hooves), it simply isn't the case across the board. I'd never hunt my horse without shoes and traction. And he has good hoof quality. If I thought it was in his best interest to be unshod - I'd be happy to save the money. While borium might not be the best thing in the world for a horse - slipping and breaking a leg while galloping on an icy road is worse.

A horse with horrible hooves can only be improved so much be diet and trimming. If he's sore without shoes - put the damn shoes on. With pads. Whatever works for THE HORSE should be our guide. Same with the work. If the work the horse does requires the horse be aided in some manner - then do it. A thin show pad won't help the horse's back on an endurance ride. A western saddle isn't a good choice for foxhunting in paneled country.

All the stuff we use on our horses are simply tools. A good horseman knows when to use a particular tool, be it a bit, a saddle, studs, shoes - or no shoes at all.

There are few absolutes in horsemanship. And shoeing or not shoeing is not an absolute.

FortheFunofitFarm

Dec. 21, 2007, 09:50 AM

FortheFunofitFarm

Dec. 21, 2007, 10:01 AM

A2 - the OP posted two links, one shod and one bare.

No idea why my link didn't work. I'll try again.

http://www.horsesfirstracing.com/index.asp?PageID=7

rcloisonne

Dec. 21, 2007, 10:02 AM

Well said, JSwan!

FortheFunofitFarm

Dec. 21, 2007, 10:04 AM

Well, crud. Didn't work that time either. The Simon Earle Racing vids have been around for a while. Just go to http://www.horsesfirstracing.com and (as of last night ;)) look for the barefoot racing articles. I'm fairly sure that you have probably seen them anyway...

The Atlanta Farrier Group, LLC

Dec. 21, 2007, 10:07 AM

Accurate? How could it be inaccurate? What are you saying, it might be fake?
As expected, the people that won't want to believe it will find their reasons and rationalizations.
Interesting how the bare foot has such a beautiful heel first landing and no toe-flip like the shod one.

I'm not going to get into a big argument here, but if you want to compare apples to apples then why not video the same horse barefoot, shod, shod with pads and such.

There are wayyyyy too many variables that go into the way a horse hits the ground and absorbs concussion that video of two seperate horses is just that two seperate horses. No conclusions can be made from that video other than to say that the two seperate horses impact and load differently.

enough said
Dave Purves RJF

FortheFunofitFarm

Dec. 21, 2007, 10:16 AM

How about this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocDRJ...eature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocDRJ5h62x8&feature=related)

That's a shod hoof landing on dirt. And darn, that landing makes my blood go cold.

Ok, now maybe *I* am the one missing something :lol: I don't see anything that makes the "shoe" stand out as the "reason" for anything in that clip :confused:

J Swan

Dec. 21, 2007, 10:31 AM

The one thing that does make me wince a little, is the medial/lateral wobble of the fetlock on the shod horse. Horses joints are not intended for that type/direction of movement. Maybe it's caused by the weight of the shoe? Rick, anyone? At any rate, really....how many horses go trotting down asphalt, shod or barefoot? That's a case of pedal osteitis, mechanical founder, a crash and burn, among others, just waiting to happen ;)

You have to take the ENTIRE horse's body as a unit - you can't look specifically at P3 and say - oh my God - that's a future case of founder right there - how awful.

It's too simplistic. I've know way to many gasp - shod - horses that hunted well into their late 20's for your assertion to hold water. Galloping on frozen ground. Galloping on asphalt. Jumping on uneven terrain; pockmarked and often frozen; or worse; greasy clay. For hours at a time. Same with event horses. Pretty tough work and requires an equine athlete to do it.

This is why being a good HORSEMAN is important. A good horseman conditions his horse for the work it is required to do. A good horseman watches his horse move, works with his vet and farrier, works on correct and proper conditioning of the horse, makes management changes to that each horse is cared for according to the HORSE's needs.

Someone mentioned a wobble - the horse isn't meant to move like that. Was it caused by the shoe? No - perhaps it was caused by the ground being UNEVEN. A pebble. A clod of dirt. How many videos were shot in order for the preplanned outcome to be captured?

This is the problem with "videos" that try and prove a theory or position.

Go out there and watch your horses - shod and unshod - gallop and play in their pastures. You will see all sorts of movement that isn't textbook perfect.

Horse's aren't built to spec - they're not engineered according to a blueprint. Again, there are simply too many variables to make the assertion that an unshod horse is a superior method of management.

FortheFunofitFarm

Dec. 21, 2007, 10:34 AM

No no, I'm sorry. I didn't mean the "shoe" is causing him to land so hard laterally. He's unbalanced somewhere, could be limb deformity. It just looks painful. Dec. 21, 2007 01:16 PM

Aahhhhhhh.........ok :winkgrin: Misunderstood ya, sorry.

This is the one the OP posted that shows the med/lat wobble I mentioned.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fql-xsofeg0&feature=related

Cashela

Dec. 21, 2007, 10:35 AM

I watched both video's and if you really intently watch the horse with the darker leg, it appears to have the same amount of impact, you just can't see it as well because of the darker hair.

FortheFunofitFarm

Dec. 21, 2007, 10:43 AM

I agree, JSwan :yes:.

Someone mentioned a wobble - the horse isn't meant to move like that. Was it caused by the shoe? No - perhaps it was caused by the ground being UNEVEN. A pebble. A clod of dirt. How many videos were shot in order for the preplanned outcome to be captured?

That would be me that mentioned the wobble. I never said the shoe caused it. I asked if the weight of the shoe could cause it. However, I will add that the horses fetlock joint is wobbling in mid air, not on the ground and it isn't the first time I've seen slow mo of a shod horse that does that. I just wanted to know why. The ground is asphalt and looks even and free of mud clods and pebbles too.

flshgordon

Dec. 21, 2007, 11:05 AM

I love it when the "barefoot nazis" post videos on youtube that are totally skewed to the way they wish the world was.

Yes the first video does show a lot of torque/consussion on that shod foot, but did anyone else notice that is a HUGE boned horse? Far heavier than the average horse I would say, and definitely in a completely different stride than the darker one. And the second video is not of the same horse (what's the point if they aren't even of the same horse??? :confused:) and of course has very dark legs where you can't see the torque/concussion.

Please, if you're going to try to help the "barefoot" cause, come up with something better than this.

donkeyman

Dec. 21, 2007, 11:18 AM

I would want to see a video of a few minutes with the same horse shod and unshod to make an intelligent opinion on the topic....how can 4 seconds of one and 7 seconds of another be scientifically worthy

Rick Burten

Dec. 21, 2007, 11:24 AM

The one thing that does make me wince a little, is the medial/lateral wobble of the fetlock on the shod horse.
I have looked at that clip until I am cross-eyed and I don't see the wobble you are talking about. :eek:
Horses joints are not intended for that type/direction of movement.
It depends on the joint. That said, The fetlock joint is a ginglymus(hinge) joint designed to move basically in two directions. However, because of the different sizes of the condoyles, it is an "imperfect" hinge joint and thus does have some minor M/L 'play' associated with it. Especially when/if there has be some damage/injury to the ligaments and/or tendons that surround and support it.
Maybe it's caused by the weight of the shoe? Rick, anyone?
Possibly but not likely especially since this appears to be an 'even weight' shoe.

Now, I also looked, numerous times, at the video of the barefoot horse. A couple of things that are of note that have not already been discussed. The hoof conformation is significantly different that that of the shod horse. The barefoot horse's hoof impacts the ground first on the lateral side then 'flops over' to the medial side.

I am in complete agreement with JSwan's etal. observations, especially those in post #10.

IMNTBCHO, these to video snippets are nothing more than propoganda put forth to sustain the BUA position. Probably works when shown to the gullible. Fortunately, most all of those here do not fit that description. :)

Equibrit

Dec. 21, 2007, 11:27 AM

You could ONLY draw conclusions from this type of comparison if the following were true;

You used the same horse for both shod & unshod videos.
The horse was trimmed EXACTLY the same for both.
The surface was EXACTLY the same for both.
The horse was traveling at EXACTLY the same speed for both.

Otherwise you're pissing in the wind!

elctrnc

Dec. 21, 2007, 11:31 AM

Plus - no offense - but a lot of y'all don't seem to be serious competitors or riders.

while i agree with some of that you said, i'm not sure what you are getting at here. please explain.

Equibrit

Dec. 21, 2007, 11:38 AM

while i agree with some of that you said, i'm not sure what you are getting at here. please explain.

I think she put it quite succinctly;

"While a lot of pleasure horses can go barefoot their entire lives (with good hooves), it simply isn't the case across the board. I'd never hunt my horse without shoes and traction. And he has good hoof quality. If I thought it was in his best interest to be unshod - I'd be happy to save the money. While borium might not be the best thing in the world for a horse - slipping and breaking a leg while galloping on an icy road is worse."

ie: if a horse is exposed to more strenuous activity than pleasure riding, he may need more protection. What is so difficult to understand?

Equibrit

Dec. 21, 2007, 11:42 AM

It's a lot like Christianity;

You can have a great deal of respect for a committed believer, but a loud mouthed "missionary" is abhorent.

elctrnc

Dec. 21, 2007, 11:43 AM

I think she put it quite succinctly;

"While a lot of pleasure horses can go barefoot their entire lives (with good hooves), it simply isn't the case across the board. I'd never hunt my horse without shoes and traction. And he has good hoof quality. If I thought it was in his best interest to be unshod - I'd be happy to save the money. While borium might not be the best thing in the world for a horse - slipping and breaking a leg while galloping on an icy road is worse."

ie: if a horse is exposed to more strenuous activity than pleasure riding, he may need more protection. What is so difficult to understand?

I'm quite able to read, equibrit, thanks. to me, that comment insinuates that unless you are a "serious competitor or rider," your opinion isn't as "worthy" or something. i thought it was odd.

does that mean that if the horse is a "competition" horse, then the horse needs shoes? i've got a barefoot hunter and a barefoot dressage horse. oh, and the barefoot dressage horse recently went foxhunting and did just fine. i guess the question is: at what level of my competing and how often do i need to ride to make me a "serious competitor or rider," as jswan puts it? and if/when i hit that level, does that make my horses and my opinions *mean* something?

edited to add: i don't necessarily disagree with the rest of the paragraph or jswan's opinion that her horses need shoes. that's her decision and i don't care. i am not telling anyone they need to go barefoot. what i have an issue with is the insinuation that the "barefooters" can't possibly know about the needs of the horse of a "serious" competitor or rider. maybe i misunderstood.

Equibrit

Dec. 21, 2007, 11:50 AM

" i guess the question is: at what level of my competing and how often do i need to ride to make me a "serious competitor or rider," as jswan puts it? and if/when i hit that level, does that make my horses and my opinions *mean* something?"

I'm sure if J Swan was aware that you existed she would probably have an opinion. As it is, I'm sure she won't be losing any sleep over it!

Rick Burten

Dec. 21, 2007, 11:51 AM

The video of the shod hoof says to note the uneven weight distribution.
I saw more of that in the barefoot horse than the shod horse.
What if we started referring to you - and all farriers here as "Shoe Nazis"
It would be quite inaccurate and you would be asked to substantiate your accusation.

elctrnc

Dec. 21, 2007, 11:51 AM

I'm sure if J Swan was aware that you existed she would probably have an opinion. As it is, I'm sure she won't be losing any sleep over it!

then instead of YOU defending HER words, maybe she can respond.:)

Equibrit

Dec. 21, 2007, 11:54 AM

I have no doubt that she will.

(it just isn't about YOU, YOU, YOU!)

elctrnc

Dec. 21, 2007, 11:56 AM

I have no doubt that she will.

(it just isn't about YOU, YOU, YOU!)

what???:confused:

flshgordon

Dec. 21, 2007, 12:02 PM

I saw more of that in the barefoot horse than the shod horse.

It would be quite inaccurate and you would be asked to substantiate your accusation.

I'm not sure where the "shoe nazis" comment came from but I will assume it came from AT perhaps responding to my post? :confused: Ah the beauty of the ignore list, I'll never know!

Either way, I still maintain that there ARE barefoot nazis....lots of em, and especially on this board (though I don't frequent others, so they may just be everywhere). I'm sure there are shoe nazis as well but I'm not one of them. I have two barefoot and one with front shoes only, two of those compete, and I have my horses shod and trimmed according to their NEEDS, not according to some "horses should all be barefoot" whacked mentality! :yes:

FortheFunofitFarm

Dec. 21, 2007, 12:12 PM

Rick, if you focus on the toe clip....you don't see the hoof wobble from the lateral side to the medial just prior to landing? *sigh* Maybe I just need new glasses??

Lookout

Dec. 21, 2007, 03:22 PM

Rick, if you focus on the toe clip....you don't see the hoof wobble from the lateral side to the medial just prior to landing? *sigh* Maybe I just need new glasses??

No, you don't. It's quite apparent.

Rick Burten

Dec. 21, 2007, 03:28 PM

Rick, if you focus on the toe clip....you don't see the hoof wobble from the lateral side to the medial just prior to landing? *sigh* Maybe I just need new glasses??
I went back and tried again. I see what you are talking about but I'm not sure I would call that a wobble. It could just be a 'trick' played on the eye by the camera and the slight change in angle of the relationship of the moving hoof to the stationary camera. Quien Sabe?

edited to add: the hoof has the ability to to rotate slightly along the "Y" axis. When the movement you noticed occurs while the hoof is in motion and not ground contact, there is little to no negative consequence. If the foot were in contact with the ground and in the weightbearing phase of stride, then there indeed might be some detrimental consequence. Much as there is a detrimental consequene when a horse wrings its hocks.

J Swan

Dec. 21, 2007, 03:57 PM

Well, I am going to respond. I just finished up my chores and am inside having a cup of tea.

When I mean "serious competitor or rider", I'm not saying that a person has to ride at a certain level in order to have an opinion. Folks, don't read so much into it. There was no intent to denigrate or insult.

I'm not going to quibble over semantics - it's silly. These are pretty simple concepts.

If a recreational rider rides their horse a couple of times a week on short trail rides, and the horse has good feet and the ground is pretty consistent, it's probably going to have different hoof care than a GP jumper.

Get it? It's what the horse needs in order to do it's job. If a field hunter, let's say, that hunts primarily in sandy areas, does not need shoes or studs - that isn't going to be true of all field hunters in the US. I hunt primarily in bottomland. Others hunt in mountainous terrain. Others hunt in desert.

Chances are the horses we hunt will be shod differently. Some may not be shod at all - the owner may decide to stop hunting if it gets icy, for example.

The idea that a horse can perform at the highest levels of competition or sport, with no assistance from man, is a laudable concept. However, in practice, it's the exception.

What may be more common is for pleasure horses that are very lightly ridden, or experience no challenging athletic stress - can remain unshod.

I prefer my horses to remain unshod unless their work or a particular condition requires shoes.

I cannot fathom why there is this obsession with 'proving' horses are better barefoot. If your horse wins Rolex without shoes, goody for you. If he trail rides one day a week without shoes - goody for you with sugar on top. All that proves is that your individual horse does not require shoes to do his job.

BumbleBee

Dec. 21, 2007, 06:44 PM

FortheFunofitFarm

Dec. 21, 2007, 06:55 PM

Rick,
I went back and tried again

Thank you :)

I see what you are talking about but I'm not sure I would call that a wobble. It could just be a 'trick' played on the eye by the camera and the slight change in angle of the relationship of the moving hoof to the stationary camera. Quien Sabe?

It could be a trick played on the eye, you are right. Quien Sabe? :winkgrin:

When the movement you noticed occurs while the hoof is in motion and not ground contact, there is little to no negative consequence.

Where can I learn more about the little to no negative consequences of this movement in flight?

I understand that if the hoof was in contact with the ground and weightbearing, there might be negative/detrimental consequences but I would like to learn more.

Thanks....and P.S. I vote that you open a farrier school :winkgrin: Have you ever given it some thought? I still can't decide where to go :sigh:

deltawave

Dec. 21, 2007, 07:01 PM

Humans don't need cars, houses, well-fitting clothes, healthcare and even....shoes....either. The argument that "need" is defined by what we ask of our horses is specious, just like the argument I posted above. One could argue that there are a whole lot of "wild horses" who would do better if they could be shod. The ones with poor feet get eaten. But no, they don't "need" their feet protected. Just like the mountain lion doesn't "need" to eat them. :)

Shoe 'em if they need 'em, pull 'em if you can. How much simpler can it be, really? :confused:

Thomas_1

Dec. 21, 2007, 07:03 PM

JSwann, excellent postings on this thread.

goeslikestink

Dec. 21, 2007, 07:08 PM

tend to agree with j swan

but also agree with those that said different horses one light leg one dark leg
and i have watch it repeatedly

un fair to post and say its this that or the other
when light horse is actually going faster than the dark one so the foot is slower when putting down

so i would like to see the same horse shod and unshod given at the same speed of pace

J Swan

Dec. 21, 2007, 07:17 PM

Shoe 'em if they need 'em, pull 'em if you can. How much simpler can it be, really? :confused:

Well, I guess we could just shoot them all and put them out of their misery. Poor things - have to wear shoes on their feet..... how barbaric.

I mean - they don't need saddles, either. Humans need them. At least this human does. I suppose I could use the Vulcan mind meld instead of a bridle and bit too.

But I ain't gonna chance it. :D

Wow - I got an attaboy from Thomas! That's like getting a gold star on my report card!

Equibrit

Dec. 21, 2007, 07:21 PM

If it gets right down to it - we don't need horses.

Hell - just turn 'em all lose and let nature take it's course!

jack mac

Dec. 21, 2007, 07:32 PM

The answers is simple the lighter horse with the shoe is being dragged along head carriage will be high & resisting to want to move forward the darker one is being lead not resisting normal head carriage;) if you dont believe me watch a few standard breeds being work in a jogger for the first time with no shoes that's resisting & its front action will be the same :) its intended to misled the gullible

FortheFunofitFarm

Dec. 21, 2007, 07:50 PM

Wow - I got an attaboy from Thomas! That's like getting a gold star on my report card!

You go, girl! ;)

I agree 100% :yes:

Appassionato

Dec. 21, 2007, 09:09 PM

I'm not going to get into a big argument here, but if you want to compare apples to apples then why not video the same horse barefoot, shod, shod with pads and such.

There are wayyyyy too many variables that go into the way a horse hits the ground and absorbs concussion that video of two seperate horses is just that two seperate horses. No conclusions can be made from that video other than to say that the two seperate horses impact and load differently.

enough said
Dave Purves RJF

Great call, Dave! I can see where results could be skewed if the shod horse is a 15 YO arthritic horse vs. a barefoot 3 YO, etc. Not saying that did happen, just that I can see how it could happen.

Rick Burten

Dec. 21, 2007, 10:03 PM

Where can I learn more about the little to no negative consequences of this movement in flight?
Gotta start with some study of the physics of motion, the effect of weight on motion, the cumulative effect of gravity and inertia on units in motion. Or, you can watch a bunch of horses, ask a bunch of questions, and then think about the answers and then ask some more questions, do some more studying, watch some more horses,..........
I understand that if the hoof was in contact with the ground and weightbearing, there might be negative/detrimental consequences but I would like to learn more.
Me too. :)
Thanks....and P.S. I vote that you open a farrier school :winkgrin: Have you ever given it some thought?
Indeed I have. However, having worked in retail before, I decided I didn't need either the headaches or the ulcers. Running a farrier practice/business is as much as I want to do.
I still can't decide where to go :sigh:
There are some excellent choices out there. You will need to be willing to give up a big chunk of time(4+ months, depending) to do it right. Heartland Horseshoeing School, Lamar, Mo; Kentucky Horseshoeing School, Mt. Eden, Ky; Cornell University Farrier Program; are IMNTBCHO, three of the best.

When you decide to do this, before you set off on your quest, make the acquaintance of several reputable farriers in your area and see if they would be willing to let you ride along after you graduate. Even if you can only do this a couple of days a week, you'll be light years ahead of where you'll be if you try to go it alone after graduation.

I also recommend you join your local/state farrier association, and the AFA, and then attend as many clinics, seminars, hammer-ins as you possibly can. Subscribe to the American Farriers Journal, Hoofcare & Lameness magazine but pass on Todays Pro Farrier magazine.

If you have some time, feel free to come ride with me, now or later. Got a big house, plenty to eat, and a good variety of horses that I provide services to.

I'd be happy to give you the names of some of the really good farriers of my acquaintance in your area.

Catersun

Dec. 21, 2007, 11:28 PM

Found these two videos online and well can't say it doesn't bother me.

I will admit to being a victim of propaganda on MANY occations so looking at these two videos could it really be this cut and dried that shoes by restricting hoof expansion could cause this type of concussion?

The thought horrifies me.

My guys are barefoot but come competition time I have been planning on putting shoes on one for increased traction. Not sure I could do so if this is acurate.

bare http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fql-xsofeg0&feature=related

shod http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fql-xsofeg0&feature=related

is this a typo?.. the horse in both links is shod. or rather it is the same link.

Rick Burten

Dec. 22, 2007, 07:40 AM

is this a typo?.. the horse in both links is shod. or rather it is the same link.
No, its not a typo. What you have to do is watch the clip and then when it ends, options will come up in the screen. Click on the top one --"highspeed barefoot horse hoof"--

M. O'Connor

Dec. 22, 2007, 08:36 AM

I don't see much difference between the two videos at all, other than the chestnut being an obviously much bigger horse, with more unclipped hair that ripples with the concussion. The bay leg is not as hairy, and the horse is smaller. The shoeing job on the chestnut doesn't look up to par with what is typical of most competition horses, who, BTW are working on gound that doesn't approach being as hard as that in the video.

Wake up and smell the coffee folks--horses' limbs are subject to LOTS of concussion and if you watched a landing stride on a race horse or off a jump of any size you would be amazed any of our horses can walk away from these "insults" unscathed.

7HL

Dec. 22, 2007, 08:39 AM

"Horses don't need to go on trails or jump courses or do dressage. Horses need adequate food, shelter, and medical attention. Nothing much more than that, save those with serious pathologies preventing them from living relatively pain free lives, in which case they may need shoes.

They very rarely ever need shoes. It is US that want shoes so we can compete. Same with saddles, bridles, bits, blankets, etc. In most cases this is all for our own satisfaction and has nothing to do with the needs of the horse.

I'm not anti-competition. But the fact is, riding horses is not natural, and having to wear shoes is not natural either."

This is the coming out of the closet statement. This is indeed the vantage point where lots of bare footers are coming from.

So folks throw all of it away, and we'll all own pasture pets. Then we'll have met the needs of our horse. And don't be surprised if that isn't the goal of some.

Rick Burten

Dec. 22, 2007, 08:52 AM

The shoeing job on the chestnut doesn't look up to par with what is typical of most competition horses,
In what way/ways?

J Swan

Dec. 22, 2007, 08:59 AM

This is the coming out of the closet statement. This is indeed the vantage point where lots of bare footers are coming from.

So folks throw all of it away, and we'll all own pasture pets. Then we'll have met the needs of our horse. And don't be surprised if that isn't the goal of some.

Good catch. When she posted that, I was like - ahhh - now I see where she is coming from.

Most horses have a job. We don't keep them to pet while we watch tv. If a person wanted a field full of horses merely to keep as pets - well - yeah - they'd not need much of anything - including bits, bridles or saddles.

So it seems as if we're talking about two completely different worlds. If a horse has a job, the horse and rider are going to need things to do that job. With horses, it's going to mean trimming or shoeing or traction that helps them accomplish their job.

Seems that she's using the word "need" to apply only to the basic requirements for life. Food, water and shelter.

Well - I don't think any of us are talking about that. We're talking about what an individual horse needs to do a job.

M. O'Connor

Dec. 22, 2007, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by M. O'Connor
The shoeing job on the chestnut doesn't look up to par with what is typical of most competition horses,

In what way/ways?

By that I mean that the foot shown is neither that of a serious competiton horse nor of a competition horse's shoe.

At top levels the farrier is an important part of the horse's preparation team, and horses are attended to by farriers frequently, taking intricate care that the shoe fits and is suited to the job the horse is expected to do at all times, so that the horse goes through the in gate with the best available footgear he could possibly have that day.

The foot shown does not reflect that level of care and expertise--thus, is not "up to par" with what I'd expect to see on a top level horse.

irishcas

Dec. 22, 2007, 09:40 AM

Wake up and smell the coffee folks--horses' limbs are subject to LOTS of concussion and if you watched a landing stride on a race horse or off a jump of any size you would be amazed any of our horses can walk away from these "insults" unscathed.

I agree that the videos are pointless, not the same horse, only 4 seconds, lighting is different blah blah blah. Proves nothing.

But O'connor, horses walking away unscathed. Seriously? The race track produces large quantities of horses who don't walk away unscathed or who are dumped at auctions or in the hands of newbies buying OTTB's.

I live in an area where people have no problem spending 100K and up for hunter/jumpers, eventers, dressage horses. A lot of these people are keeping up with the "joneses" and have no problem buting, isox'ing and getting rid of 10 year old horses bcuz they are "old".

I'm not saying it is the shoes, but the way they are used. Jumping 4 year olds and racing 2 year olds does not leave them unscathed. Add poor trimming to that UNDER the shoes and well then there are some issues there.

Yeah concussion does cause issues for sure, especially in still growing bones.

Regards,

J Swan

Dec. 22, 2007, 09:51 AM

Yeah concussion does cause issues for sure, especially in still growing bones.

Regards,

But wear and tear on our bodies, and our horses bodies, is also a normal part of life. Even a "barefoot" horse can develop ringbone, sidebones, all kinds of ailments. And geez - they also get arthritis. It's called life - and nobody gets out alive.

The basic premise is that shoes are "bad". Always - except in case of treating an ailment. For some, not even then. Oooo look - concussion. As if ambulation is a completely stress free event if the horse has no shoes?

I don't even know why this subject in being brought up again. How many hoofcare threads have been closed in the last week? NB is evil, shoes are evil - so much evil!:rolleyes::sleepy:

7HL

Dec. 22, 2007, 10:05 AM

I don't even know why this subject in being brought up again. How many hoofcare threads have been closed in the last week? NB is evil, shoes are evil - so much evil!:rolleyes::sleepy:

Straying from the original post slightly, it is brought up so that the barefooters can keep driving home their message, market their product. Yes, there are farriers that post on this board, but they aren't the ones that keep opening threads to promote a particular type of hoof care. The barefooters / trimmers need to keep the message alive to promote their business.

deltawave

Dec. 22, 2007, 12:31 PM

Concussion (in the proper amount) is also EXTREMELY BENEFICIAL for growing bones in that it allows the bone to remodel favorably and adapt to the stressors applied. I maintain that a horse that is SENSIBLY exposed to PROPER exercise while its bones are still growing is going to have better, tougher bone than a horse that's mollycoddled until it's 6 years old for fear of hurting it.

And not all racehorses are crippled when they leave the track. My old TB mare is sound as a rock at age 19, raced at 2 and 3 and had pristine, gorgeous legs when she finished her last race. Granted, she was a terrible racehorse. :lol:

J Swan

Dec. 22, 2007, 12:52 PM

The barefooters / trimmers need to keep the message alive to promote their business.

Ah.

Then my recommendation for them would be to produce top level performance horses in all disciplines, using only their methods, and get world class equestrians, vets and farriers to endorse it. It should be backed up by research and data that supports any assertion that such horses not only perform better at the top levels of their disciplines, but they remain sounder as well.

That would get people's attention.

Until that time, I'll continue to use the little horseman's toolbox of acquired knowledge and experience.

irishcas

Dec. 22, 2007, 02:45 PM

But wear and tear on our bodies, and our horses bodies, is also a normal part of life. Even a "barefoot" horse can develop ringbone, sidebones, all kinds of ailments. And geez - they also get arthritis. It's called life - and nobody gets out alive.

The basic premise is that shoes are "bad". Always - except in case of treating an ailment. For some, not even then. Oooo look - concussion. As if ambulation is a completely stress free event if the horse has no shoes?

I don't even know why this subject in being brought up again. How many hoofcare threads have been closed in the last week? NB is evil, shoes are evil - so much evil!:rolleyes::sleepy:

Holy Cow,

Where did I mention that shoes were the cause of poor concussion. I just responded to the sentence by O'Connor about unscathed horses.

I am not turning this into a barefoot argument. I think I also said that the videos shown prove NOTHING.

Sheesh.

irishcas

Dec. 22, 2007, 02:47 PM

And not all racehorses are crippled when they leave the track. My old TB mare is sound as a rock at age 19, raced at 2 and 3 and had pristine, gorgeous legs when she finished her last race. Granted, she was a terrible racehorse. :lol:

Averages Deltawave Averages, how many OTTB's have issues. :rolleyes:

Concussion is not a bad thing but if it is done with PROPER hoof form (shod or barefoot). IMPROPER hoof form + concussioin well different story isn't it?

Lauren!

Dec. 22, 2007, 02:55 PM

I'm no expert, but both the videos make me cringe... looks like a lot of concussion/torque/wobbling/whatever to me on both sides.

I would love to see a video and some kind of scientific measurement of concussion on the SAME horse barefoot, shod, shod with pads, etc. I think that would be a great comparison for the lay person. It makes sense to me that horses get less concussion with bare feet with steel shoes... I figure if I jumped up and down on a metal plate on grass, then on grass, I'd see the difference in short order :D I'm sure trim makes a huge difference... but I'd hope for a good trim whether shod or not.

Rick Burten

Dec. 22, 2007, 03:57 PM

By that I mean that the foot shown is neither that of a serious competiton horse nor of a competition horse's shoe.
I'm not trying to be obtuse here, but that statement is circuitous.
At top levels the farrier is an important part of the horse's preparation team, and horses are attended to by farriers frequently, taking intricate care that the shoe fits and is suited to the job the horse is expected to do at all times, so that the horse goes through the in gate with the best available footgear he could possibly have that day.
You somehow think that a professional farrier(such as myself) would do less than that for a horse that was not on the "A" Circuit?
The foot shown does not reflect that level of care and expertise-
You're going to have to do better than that. Please be specific.
thus, is not "up to par" with what I'd expect to see on a top level horse.
Again, please be specific. This time, couch it in terms that are related to what that seven second +/- video told /showed you that allowed you to reach your conclusions.

sublimequine

Dec. 22, 2007, 04:08 PM

I love how the shod horse looks like a big-boned perhaps draft or draft cross with clean, light-colored legs.. while the barefoot horse is a light dainty breed with feathers everywhere and black legs. :lol::lol::lol:

What a silly video. Sometimes this 'ANTI-SHOES! :mad::mad::mad:' stuff is entertaining. :D

Beverley

Dec. 22, 2007, 04:32 PM

No no, I'm sorry. I didn't mean the "shoe" is causing him to land so hard laterally. He's unbalanced somewhere, could be limb deformity. It just looks painful.

Doesn't look particularly painful to me, but of course as J Swan so eloquently noted it really isn't possible to draw any meaningful conclusions from these videos.

In real life, I have seen far funkier than that, typically caused by conformation, NEVER (in particular individuals I'm thinking of) as a consequence of shoeing or trimming. The ones I'm thinking of didn't know what they were doing was awful- they just trucked along sound for years.

I generally get concerned when a hoof care professional says they are going to 'fix' such an imbalance- tells me that they aren't knowledgeable enough to look at the whole horse and figure out why a wheel looks funky.

Lauren!

Dec. 22, 2007, 04:34 PM

You somehow think that a professional farrier(such as myself) would do less than that for a horse that was not on the "A" Circuit?

Rick, if my horsey needs shoes in the spring, will you come do him? :D There'a a reason there's a Barefoot Babes for Burton clique...

I think a big problem in general, and in the shoes "vs" barefoot stuff, is the lack of access to really good, professional farriers. Yes, there are good ones around... but for every good one, there's a couple who hang out shingles and don't really know what they're doing. And yes, some give more attention to a bigger name client and do rushed, less attentive work for a nobody (or on a difficult horse because they want to just be done with the evil beast... been there, done that). And the good ones are, of course, very busy, so unless you're a long time client or at a barn where they have a lot of business you might be out of luck. Finding someone good to come out for one or two horses in a fairly rural area is iffy, so if you don't like the barn farrier (or you have your own small place), good luck. JMHO on why a chunk of the horse owning public gets easily fed up with farriery.

BumbleBee

Dec. 22, 2007, 04:37 PM

Straying from the original post slightly, it is brought up so that the barefooters can keep driving home their message, market their product. Yes, there are farriers that post on this board, but they aren't the ones that keep opening threads to promote a particular type of hoof care. The barefooters / trimmers need to keep the message alive to promote their business.

If you read the original post I was asking for someone to tell me it was just propaganda. I actually do plan to shoe so I wanted lots of people telling me it isn't as bad as this video looks.

Lookout

Dec. 22, 2007, 04:40 PM

Yes, there are farriers that post on this board, but they aren't the ones that keep opening threads to promote a particular type of hoof care.
No, they just keep getting them closed. Barefooters didn't start the thread 'how do I tell a good shoeing job and vice versa', nor, 'are there any farriers out there worth calling themselves one'. Or, 'the evils of barefoot/NB THERE not telling you about'.

If you want to feel the difference in concussion from shoes vs. barefoot, do a sitting trot on a big moving shod horse, then a barefoot one. There is no 'learning' to absorb the concussion on the barefoot one.

Lauren!

Dec. 22, 2007, 04:51 PM

If you read the original post I was asking for someone to tell me it was just propaganda. I actually do plan to shoe so I wanted lots of people telling me it isn't as bad as this video looks.

I wouldn't worry that shoes are going to kill your horse :) (not that you thought they would...)

I would take the individual horse into consideration and see how he goes in competition if you're currently happy with him barefoot. I say that because you mention traction... I think my horses have slightly better traction barefoot than in plain steel shoes, in general (on grass, arena footing, etc). Of course, studs give even more traction, and those aren't an option barefoot, so if you were thinking of steel shoes drilled and tapped disregard my comments :).

If the horse is sore without shoes, that's a whole other story. I'm worried about competing mine on varying/hard/sometimes iffy footing this spring too. I think a good trim has made him tremendously more comfortable (and I think good trimming is necessary whether you put a shoe over it or not! a nice shoe on a crappy foot is still a crappy foot), but I am not sure if he'll be 100% without boots (not allowed in competition) outside of our nicely groomed home arena... I haven't tried yet, I don't show or ride hard when it's really cold out. Ideally, I want him barefoot (or booted, I like many things about the boots and booting), but he has a finite amount of time (about 8 months) to prove he can make it barefoot and still do his job (dressage, lower level eventing, jumpers) or else he'll be getting some sort of front shoes again, at least for the show season.

Lookout

Dec. 22, 2007, 06:12 PM

If you read the original post I was asking for someone to tell me it was just propaganda. I actually do plan to shoe so I wanted lots of people telling me it isn't as bad as this video looks.
Propaganda, how exactly? By whom? Did someone fake this somehow? Were they presented together in comparison saying one was better/worse than the other? You're the one who had the initial impression that it looked bad. It's as bad as you think it looks. If you don't think it looks bad, it's not.

7HL

Dec. 22, 2007, 06:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7HL
Yes, there are farriers that post on this board, but they aren't the ones that keep opening threads to promote a particular type of hoof care.

No, they just keep getting them closed.Actually it's the Moderators that rightfully close the threads because they stray from the original topic.

If you want to feel the difference in concussion from shoes vs. barefoot, do a sitting trot on a big moving shod horse, then a barefoot one.Actually I have. I have barefoot and shod horses. You see I believe in meeting the needs of my horses and it's not because I feel the need to live by an ideology or absolute in hoof care / treatment.

Propaganda, how exactly? By whom?Lets just say if the shoe fits wear it or maybe better phased if you need a trim, call a ......??

goeslikestink

Dec. 22, 2007, 07:23 PM

Ah.

Then my recommendation for them would be to produce top level performance horses in all disciplines, using only their methods, and get world class equestrians, vets and farriers to endorse it. It should be backed up by research and data that supports any assertion that such horses not only perform better at the top levels of their disciplines, but they remain sounder as well.

That would get people's attention.

Until that time, I'll continue to use the little horseman's toolbox of acquired knowledge and experience.

haha xx

J Swan

Dec. 22, 2007, 07:37 PM

Jesus H. Roosevelt Christ,

Where did I mention that shoes were the cause of poor concussion. I just responded to the sentence by O'Connor about unscathed horses.

I am not turning this into a barefoot argument. I think I also said that the videos shown prove NOTHING.

Sheesh.

I was responding to another poster and making a general comment - not specifically directed at you.

To the poster who told someone to ride an unshod vs shod horse and try and sit the difference - I gotta say - that's a pretty big load of horsesh**.

I ride mine shod and unshod - and guess what - there is no difference in "concussion". I sit my horses just fine.

Wait - are we talking about real horses? Or are some of you talking about the ones in front of supermarkets that cost 25 cents a ride? Those can be pretty bumpy.

I think there must be a full moon out tonight. I don't care to shoe a horse unless his work requires it - but some of y'all don't seem to be doing much work with yours at all if a slip of metal on a horse's hoof unseats you.

I also simply must know why it's SO important that the "barefoot only" argument keeps getting shoved down our throats? I don't know a single educated horseman that would say that every horse must have shoes all the time for ever and ever amen. A GOOD horseman - does what is required for the horse and work.

This is the problem I have with the barefoot only argument. Essentially, it's bad horsemanship. I have no use for such people. Go join the Parelli worshippers and have a big tent revival.

You see, I don't really think many people give a crap what folks do with their own horses. If a horse doesn't need shoes for his job - that's nice. Pat yourself on the back and feel all warm and fuzzy if you want. Post pictures and show us how well your horse is doing without shoes. Yippee.

I tune out when I hear that it's the "best or the only way to go". It isn't, I know it isn't, and I don't care for evangelicals.

goeslikestink

Dec. 22, 2007, 07:43 PM

No, they just keep getting them closed. Barefooters didn't start the thread 'how do I tell a good shoeing job and vice versa', nor, 'are there any farriers out there worth calling themselves one'. Or, 'the evils of barefoot/NB THERE not telling you about'.

If you want to feel the difference in concussion from shoes vs. barefoot, do a sitting trot on a big moving shod horse, then a barefoot one. There is no 'learning' to absorb the concussion on the barefoot one.

did you know that some bare footers actually suffer from concussion of the foot

you can come and ride my mare if you like- shes goes the same in shoes or not
i would even get a farrier in for the same day -so you ride her shod then unshod
shes the same then if you dont mind i get him to wop her shoes back on
just to prove as well thats there no need for a transition period then you can take her back out again there for provening she dont--do no learning-- or is that meant to be leaning

my mare uses her hinds and is well balanced cause shes well schooled simple as

Rick Burten

Dec. 22, 2007, 07:47 PM

goeslikestink

Dec. 22, 2007, 08:03 PM

Sorry was at work without a computer all day.

I realize I would not be working on pavement but in summer when I would need to shoe our pastures turn into near concrete and my guy plays hard in turnout so it would be about 18h a day of this type of concussion.

As to why I need shoes... my guy has great hooves but being 17.2hh he has a lot of body to balance ad high speed and an eventual career in the jumpers I really need to know his hooves are getting a good grip. Ideally I would shoe hime 4-5 months with screw in studs and leave him bare other wise.

Okay off to read the rest of the replies now.

when i am competeing i use studs especially on grass as in wet grass for extra grip so do many compeditors both international and nationally
most lower ranking compeditors only put 1 stud hole to the outside of the foot
higher compeditors put 2 one in each side of each foot or 2 x 2 in each foot
when the sun is out and many horses travelling over short grass be it wet or dry from the heat of the sun it can be slippery adding studs gives you better grip
there are studs for different types of disaplines its better to have 2x1 in each foot or 2x2 in eachfoot rather than just one- as the foot is even then

sometimes i dont need them but have the studs with me its important that when ahorse is out in normal surroundings ie paddock or not in use or finish classes to remove the studs and reeplace with a stud stopper which both studs and stoppers can be brought of your farrier or tack shop along with a tap to undo and re replace -- always clean the holes when removing the studs and before you put them in with water salty water

i do a lot of road work i personally like to work my horses in traffic asap- asin if they green or re hab whatever i like road work because it gets them fit -
and used to traffic

the feet in the video arnt as bad as they look -if you ran and sometook avideo of your foot
it would be the same in slow motion-- its the same as if your turned your head from side to side quickly you wouldnt think it but your month goes odd shapes - g force -- g force is in all moving parts

Beverley

Dec. 22, 2007, 10:25 PM

If you want to feel the difference in concussion from shoes vs. barefoot, do a sitting trot on a big moving shod horse, then a barefoot one. There is no 'learning' to absorb the concussion on the barefoot one.

In my opinion, this post indicates a complete lack of knowledge on the part of the poster.

Total nonsense.

Makes me wonder whether the poster has ever actually ridden a horse.

Dalfan

Dec. 22, 2007, 11:12 PM

There is no 'learning' to absorb the concussion on the barefoot one.

You absorb the movement of the back, which is not concussive, unless you are riding a pogo stick.

BumbleBee

Dec. 22, 2007, 11:38 PM

It isn't as bad as this video looks. :)

LOL Thanks now I wont get ulcers when my big guy needs to be shod.

I must say I think the biggest baloney is all the nonsense about superior traction of barefoot horses. You just can't beat good studs when footing is iffy. "Says the girl who broke her collar-bone this summer when the big goofy horse fell down."

BumbleBee

Dec. 22, 2007, 11:45 PM

Propaganda, how exactly? By whom? Did someone fake this somehow? Were they presented together in comparison saying one was better/worse than the other? You're the one who had the initial impression that it looked bad. It's as bad as you think it looks. If you don't think it looks bad, it's not.

Why would anyone provide two simular videos showing concussion and lable them only by shod/bare if they were not implying something.

BumbleBee

Dec. 22, 2007, 11:52 PM

I wouldn't worry that shoes are going to kill your horse :) (not that you thought they would...)

I would take the individual horse into consideration and see how he goes in competition if you're currently happy with him barefoot. I say that because you mention traction... I think my horses have slightly better traction barefoot than in plain steel shoes, in general (on grass, arena footing, etc). Of course, studs give even more traction, and those aren't an option barefoot, so if you were thinking of steel shoes drilled and tapped disregard my comments :).

If the horse is sore without shoes, that's a whole other story. I'm worried about competing mine on varying/hard/sometimes iffy footing this spring too. I think a good trim has made him tremendously more comfortable (and I think good trimming is necessary whether you put a shoe over it or not! a nice shoe on a crappy foot is still a crappy foot), but I am not sure if he'll be 100% without boots (not allowed in competition) outside of our nicely groomed home arena... I haven't tried yet, I don't show or ride hard when it's really cold out. Ideally, I want him barefoot (or booted, I like many things about the boots and booting), but he has a finite amount of time (about 8 months) to prove he can make it barefoot and still do his job (dressage, lower level eventing, jumpers) or else he'll be getting some sort of front shoes again, at least for the show season.

Mine is the same deal great hooves but traction isn't good enough when your pushing limits of physics(not enough friction for the force and velocity) I broke my collarbone this summer when he had a greenie moment combined with bad footing and I really don't want that to happen again.

I guess my older mare having had much hoof lameness that really improved when her shoes were removed makes me quite gun shy.

Lookout

Dec. 23, 2007, 12:06 AM

Why would anyone provide two simular videos showing concussion and lable them only by shod/bare if they were not implying something.
It doesn't draw any conclusions, it just presents them. You're the one that showed them side by side from what I can tell (they are not 'together', or being compared, on YouTube from what I can tell), you're the one that drew conclusions based on what you were seeing and asking people to help you change your mind about that. Showing something does not imply anything. Labeling it as shod or barefoot is a factual description.

Thomas_1

Dec. 23, 2007, 03:49 AM

I was responding to another poster and making a general comment - not specifically directed at you.

To the poster who told someone to ride an unshod vs shod horse and try and sit the difference - I gotta say - that's a pretty big load of horsesh**.

I ride mine shod and unshod - and guess what - there is no difference in "concussion". I sit my horses just fine.

Wait - are we talking about real horses? Or are some of you talking about the ones in front of supermarkets that cost 25 cents a ride? Those can be pretty bumpy.

I think there must be a full moon out tonight. I don't care to shoe a horse unless his work requires it - but some of y'all don't seem to be doing much work with yours at all if a slip of metal on a horse's hoof unseats you.

I also simply must know why it's SO important that the "barefoot only" argument keeps getting shoved down our throats? I don't know a single educated horseman that would say that every horse must have shoes all the time for ever and ever amen. A GOOD horseman - does what is required for the horse and work.

This is the problem I have with the barefoot only argument. Essentially, it's bad horsemanship. I have no use for such people. Go join the Parelli worshippers and have a big tent revival.

You see, I don't really think many people give a crap what folks do with their own horses. If a horse doesn't need shoes for his job - that's nice. Pat yourself on the back and feel all warm and fuzzy if you want. Post pictures and show us how well your horse is doing without shoes. Yippee.

I tune out when I hear that it's the "best or the only way to go". It isn't, I know it isn't, and I don't care for evangelicals.:lol::lol:

Another excellent posting and one in which I'm in total accord.

I've currently got 11 horses barefoot and all in regular ridden work. The rest are shod.

7HL

Dec. 23, 2007, 06:06 AM

This is the problem I have with the barefoot only argument. Essentially, it's bad horsemanship. I have no use for such people. Go join the Parelli worshippers and have a big tent revival.

Bad analogy... Parelli's horses are shod for the most part.

J Swan

Dec. 23, 2007, 08:25 AM

Bad analogy... Parelli's horses are shod for the most part.

The point was that his groupies are also the types to expound on "his way is the only way".

Yes, you're right though. The barefooters would probably pick a fight with the Parelli groupies and they'd break out the carrot sticks and mayhem would ensue. There'd be vegetables and horseshoes everywhere. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Thomas_1

Dec. 23, 2007, 08:44 AM

Bad analogy... Parelli's horses are shod for the most part. I don't know a lot of "Parelli worshippers".

Not that I don't like them: I just couldn't eat a whole one ;)

They're quite a rare species over here as are the cult of the Barmy Barefoot Brigade. However the first Parelli-ite I ever came across was also the first time I'd ever seen a horse in (wellington) boots instead of shoes. I couldn't understand why on earth anyone was riding a horse wearing what I considered to be poultice boots duhhh. Seems they were something called Old Macs. VERY odd and VERY cumbersome! That horse was also ridden bitless and it seemed it had allergies to anything and everything - including hay! :confused: and had to be on a special diet. Its mad owner also claimed the horse had Seasonal Affective Disorder :lol:

However I put the horse to harness and it stayed with me for 3 months living the life of a normal horse and minus the encumbrances and associations attached by its owner!

The other few Parelli worshippers I know are also the only folks I know in real life that spout the "barefoot is best" mantra.

I must admit to thinking it all was part of the same territory in the outer fringes.

Rick Burten

Dec. 23, 2007, 09:14 AM

Ah Thomas, you most certainly can turn a phrase! Thanks for letting some sunshine into this dreary, cold, overcast morning here in Central Illinois.

deltawave

Dec. 23, 2007, 09:37 AM

Carrot sticks and NOT horseshoes, you mean. The BUAs would have to fling something else. :D BS, maybe? :lol:

7HL

Dec. 23, 2007, 11:32 AM

The other few Parelli worshippers I know are also the only folks I know in real life that spout the "barefoot is best" mantra.Wouldn't call myself a worshiper but I am using Parelli's program. I have never heard Parelli say he was a barefoot advocate. Believe he feels what ever is good for the horse. Actually the barefooters are everywhere. They have to keep selling their product. Go to the John Lyons discussion forum, loaded with Barefoot threads. Clinton Anderson talks and promotes barefoot.

Then there is here, almost every hoof thread that is started, is a continual battle.

Rick Burten

Dec. 23, 2007, 01:57 PM

They have to keep selling their product. Go to the John Lyons discussion forum, loaded with Barefoot threads.
I would, but I've been banned. :eek: LOL
Clinton Anderson talks and promotes barefoot.
And shoes his Ride 'N Slide horses. WTF?

JHUshoer20

Dec. 23, 2007, 02:48 PM

J.D.

Dec. 23, 2007, 02:58 PM

It isn't as bad as this video looks. :)

this one isn't bad. going down hill as the 1st post, but from behind:

http://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/?action=view&current=BehindSlowMoBay-1.flv

have at it, diagnosed sacrum/illium problem

J.D.

Dec. 23, 2007, 03:11 PM

[QUOTE=irishcas........
I live in an area where people have no problem spending 100K and up for hunter/jumpers, eventers, dressage horses. A lot of these people are keeping up with the "joneses" and have no problem buting, isox'ing and getting rid of 10 year old horses bcuz they are "old".....QUOTE]

If the horse has the ability to do their jobs with a little help..Why not? Guess you don't take a couple of Advil after a long day?
What about this guy? Think he needs a little help? Grand Prix level Jumper:::

http://s150.photobucket.com/albums/s120/ferrous2007/?action=view&current=Stringhalt.flv

irishcas

Dec. 23, 2007, 07:28 PM

If the horse has the ability to do their jobs with a little help..Why not? Guess you don't take a couple of Advil after a long day?

Do you even read the entire posts that you are quoting and better yet is there comprehension?

J Swan

Dec. 23, 2007, 07:42 PM

Do you even read the entire posts that you are quoting and better yet is there comprehension?

I'd ask you the same thing.

Someone is posting a video of two horses and you're going off on people giving their horse bute. I'm not sure what you are getting at. Unless you're asserting that the people who actually DO something with their horses are bad.

You seem to be asserting that if a horse remains without shoes - that it is going to remain what - perfectly sound its entire life? Bull. I have this vision in my head of the barefoot only people doing absolutely NOTHING with their horses except obsessing over the concussion the animals must endure to and from the water trough each day. Next thing you know - you'll be planting an IV drip in their veins so they don't have to walk to the trough so much.

This entire argument is absurd. All these barefoot threads are absurd. Again - there is not one educated horseman who insists upon shoes for every horse - no matter what. You have to do what is best for the horse - and allows that horse to do his job in safety and comfort. If that means shoes - you nail 'em on. If it's best to be unshod - you leave 'em off. It's called - COMMON SENSE. Something I see lacking in the barefoot only brigade.

Y'all have the mentality of the zealot. You won't change your mind, and you can't change the subject. Y'all must put a real damper on cocktail parties. :cool:

Oh - by the way - I live in an area full of the 100K horses too. Big deal. Please don't pull the "I'm better than the show people are because I don't shoe my horse and make him jump". That just tells me you're jealous or that you don't ride very well. Doesn't help your "case".

irishcas

Dec. 23, 2007, 08:03 PM

Jswan:

Here was my first post on this subject:

I agree that the videos are pointless, not the same horse, only 4 seconds, lighting is different blah blah blah. Proves nothing.

But O'connor, horses walking away unscathed. Seriously? The race track produces large quantities of horses who don't walk away unscathed or who are dumped at auctions or in the hands of newbies buying OTTB's.

I live in an area where people have no problem spending 100K and up for hunter/jumpers, eventers, dressage horses. A lot of these people are keeping up with the "joneses" and have no problem buting, isox'ing and getting rid of 10 year old horses bcuz they are "old".

I'm not saying it is the shoes, but the way they are used. Jumping 4 year olds and racing 2 year olds does not leave them unscathed. Add poor trimming to that UNDER the shoes and well then there are some issues there.

Yeah concussion does cause issues for sure, especially in still growing bones.

I was not pushing barefoot, I was agreeing that the videos showed NOTHING. I was disagreeing with M. O'Connors statement that horses walk away UNSCATHED from jumping and racing at high levels.

I WAS NOT saying there is anything wrong with using Bute or Isoxuprine on occassion. The horses I see at high levels on a regular basis LIVE on Bute, Isoxuprine and other anti-inflammatory's. Heck yeah that is NOT healthy.

I wasn't saying it was from competition per se but more because these horses are used hard at a young age before their bodies are even done growing. So it was compairing apples to oranges by the FFS (Farrier Fanatic Squad).

Now for some reason you are turning this into a shoe/barefoot issue with me and it's not. Man it's like herding cats talking to you FFS'

And Done!

J Swan

Dec. 23, 2007, 08:18 PM

Jswan:

Here was my first post on this subject:

I was not pushing barefoot, I was agreeing that the videos showed NOTHING. I was disagreeing with M. O'Connors statement that horses walk away UNSCATHED from jumping and racing at high levels.

I WAS NOT saying there is anything wrong with using Bute or Isoxuprine on occassion. The horses I see at high levels on a regular basis LIVE on Bute, Isoxuprine and other anti-inflammatory's. Heck yeah that is NOT healthy.

I wasn't saying it was from competition per se but more because these horses are used hard at a young age before their bodies are even done growing. So it was compairing apples to oranges by the FFS (Farrier Fanatic Squad).

Now for some reason you are turning this into a shoe/barefoot issue with me and it's not. Man it's like herding cats talking to you FFS'

And Done!

Actually - I've already been pigeonholed as a cyber bully. Farrier Fanatic Squad is a pretty good one though. I'd give you a kewpie doll but sulblimeequine already won it on another barefoot thread. I'm actually not fanatic about anything because I don't really give a crap about the subject.

It's just come up a lot all of a sudden and someone asked me why I always kept silent on the subject.

Now you know.

I think the whole subject is absurd. There are a lot of horses out there on all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons. Some good, some bad. There are also a lot of folks that think giving bute is awful but have no compunction pumping their horses full of noxious "herbs" they've read about on the Internet. Some don't give anything to a horse in pain - because dagnabit - they'll make them sound by harsh trimming no matter what.

I can't be fanatical about horse shoes - because my horses don't normally have them except seasonally. If I was a fanatic - I'd start threads about how horseshoes are the greatest thing to come along since crunchy peanut butter.

All in all - the subject is just boring and often downright stupid. There have been a lot of such threads since Erin left. Maybe it's good to get those advertising dollars - but I think less of COTH the magazine. Used to be this BB was populated by horsemen. Now it's all about jingles and horseshoes and show coat fashion. Yawn.

irishcas

Dec. 23, 2007, 09:53 PM

Used to be this BB was populated by horsemen. Now it's all about jingles and horseshoes and show coat fashion. Yawn.

First off Jswan are you chained to a computer that is connected to the internet and only allows you to view this forum? Are you then FORCED to read and type answers?

Finally, a little training tip for you Any Behavior that is reinforced is strengthened. Any Behavior, whether it is desired or not. Stop rewarding the behavior if you don't like it.

:rolleyes:

J Swan

Dec. 23, 2007, 10:11 PM

First off Jswan are you chained to a computer that is connected to the internet and only allows you to view this forum? Are you then FORCED to read and type answers?

Finally, a little training tip for you Any Behavior that is reinforced is strengthened. Any Behavior, whether it is desired or not. Stop rewarding the behavior if you don't like it.

:rolleyes:

You first.
I don't start these threads. A poster asked me why I don't post on them, since I and another poster seem to be able to hold our own. I never thought it did any good - but I started to post on this subject.

That's how it works - you know - one person posts - another answers - you should try taking your own advice. I'm still trying to figure out if anyone is actually going to post anything worth reading - such as examples of barefoot horses competing, or hunting. Because heck - if I can get my horses to gallop down icy roads and up and down hills barefoot - with no slipping or breaking of legs - I'll take their shoes off and use the money saved to get a facelift.

I'm still waiting.

Thomas_1

Dec. 24, 2007, 03:29 AM

Wouldn't call myself a worshiper but I am using Parelli's program. I have never heard Parelli say he was a barefoot advocate. Believe he feels what ever is good for the horse. I'd always got the impression that it was "what ever was good for his cash flow and bank balance"
Actually the barefooters are everywhere. Ah but I'm in the UK where they're not an indiginous species and tend to be shot down as soon as they infiltrate ;)

Go to the John Lyons discussion forum, loaded with Barefoot threads. Clinton Anderson talks and promotes barefoot. Sorry I can't, I'm banned. Come to think of it, isn't anyone and everyone who doesn't march with the barmy barefoot brigade
Then there is here, almost every hoof thread that is started, is a continual battle. Thing is with internet forums, it takes all sorts. In truth though its still only a minority that are in the lunatic fringes and in the cult.

7HL

Dec. 24, 2007, 05:53 PM

Quote:
Go to the John Lyons discussion forum, loaded with Barefoot threads. Clinton Anderson talks and promotes barefoot.
Sorry I can't, I'm banned. Come to think of it, isn't anyone and everyone who doesn't march with the barmy barefoot brigade
Welcome to the club... Try and even find a reference to me, they deleted every post I ever made (JL Board). Oh well, thats a whole different subject.

Quote:
Then there is here, almost every hoof thread that is started, is a continual battle.
Thing is with internet forums, it takes all sorts. In truth though its still only a minority that are in the lunatic fringes and in the cult.
Correct! I think overall that most horses owners are only interested in doing what is be for their horse. One both ends on the spectrum there are those that have to be absolute and say always shoe or always no shoe. For them unless you are doing what they preach it is wrong.

Appassionato

Dec. 24, 2007, 07:13 PM

A poster asked me why I don't post on them, since I and another poster seem to be able to hold our own. I never thought it did any good - but I started to post on this subject.

In that it was me that asked that asked you this, I'll also mention why it was important to me that folks ask questions: Everyone has experiences to share. I don't have to rip my horse's shoes off and go with boots just because it worked for so-and-so, but in that I've had to rip off Bo's shoes due to a crazy growth pattern that was causing major pain (edge of sole growing into the posterior of shoe at the toe), I'm glad I learned about some of the boots so that I could better help him until I got him to my farrier's again. Again, that's my experience. I hoped others could gain something from these threads as well. In any case, I really don't like for folks to feel like they have nothing to add or that their question is "too stupid" to ask publically.

That's how it works - you know - one person posts - another answers - you should try taking your own advice. I'm still trying to figure out if anyone is actually going to post anything worth reading - such as examples of barefoot horses competing, or hunting. Because heck - if I can get my horses to gallop down icy roads and up and down hills barefoot - with no slipping or breaking of legs - I'll take their shoes off and use the money saved to get a facelift.

You probably weren't asking me, but I did know of a few horses that hunted barefoot, but we also didn't deal with your level of winter in N. GA. (Canton and Alpharetta areas) as far as thick ice and such. But the hunt I was a member of wasn't known for getting real crazy either. :winkgrin:

My horse was shod on all fours for most of his life, mostly for support. The only "support" I understood at that time was keeping his hoof from breaking away into bleeding nubs, but also "whatever the farrier suggested." I do wish I knew then what I know now, but it wouldn't have stopped me from having him shod, just WHO shod him and how.

J Swan

Dec. 24, 2007, 08:10 PM

Aha! I didn't want to use your name in case someone decided I was speaking for you. Especially since I can be bombastic at times. I really don't understand why people fuss so much over this subject. I can understand the difficulty in finding a good farrier (been there, done that, got the t-shirt). What I can't understand is the slavish devotion to a particular method, or barefoot only - when common sense tells me the horse has to be treated as an individual, and that the hoof is merely one part of the anatomy that can't be treated to the exclusion of the rest of the body. That's mainly why I can't stand to get involved in these threads - though I do poke my head in.

Glad you posted and your post is reasonable. My youngest horse isn't going to have a shoe nailed on until I decide he needs it, if ever. The free horse - no matter what we do - has got the most awful feet I've seen on a horse.

It would be a crime to ask that horse to go barefoot. In fact - I think it would be abuse. He just can't do it. Why let him hurt? Front shoes and he's happy and sound.

The field hunter - gets 'em when he needs 'em for work. Otherwise - the money goes on the facelift piggy bank.

I need a lot of work done. :D

Edited to add - I don't doubt there are field hunters that go barefoot. Alas, because of our territory - that is inadvisable; even dangerous. But wow - think of how much money those owners are saving! No shoes, no snow pads, no studs, no borium....... sigh...... I'm jealous!

In that it was me that asked that asked you this, I'll also mention why it was important to me that folks ask questions: Everyone has experiences to share. I don't have to rip my horse's shoes off and go with boots just because it worked for so-and-so, but in that I've had to rip off Bo's shoes due to a crazy growth pattern that was causing major pain (edge of sole growing into the posterior of shoe at the toe), I'm glad I learned about some of the boots so that I could better help him until I got him to my farrier's again. Again, that's my experience. I hoped others could gain something from these threads as well. In any case, I really don't like for folks to feel like they have nothing to add or that their question is "too stupid" to ask publically.

You probably weren't asking me, but I did know of a few horses that hunted barefoot, but we also didn't deal with your level of winter in N. GA. (Canton and Alpharetta areas) as far as thick ice and such. But the hunt I was a member of wasn't known for getting real crazy either. :winkgrin:

My horse was shod on all fours for most of his life, mostly for support. The only "support" I understood at that time was keeping his hoof from breaking away into bleeding nubs, but also "whatever the farrier suggested." I do wish I knew then what I know now, but it wouldn't have stopped me from having him shod, just WHO shod him and how.

Appassionato

Dec. 24, 2007, 08:44 PM

Aha! I didn't want to use your name in case someone decided I was speaking for you. Especially since I can be bombastic at times. I really don't understand why people fuss so much over this subject. I can understand the difficulty in finding a good farrier (been there, done that, got the t-shirt). What I can't understand is the slavish devotion to a particular method, or barefoot only - when common sense tells me the horse has to be treated as an individual, and that the hoof is merely one part of the anatomy that can't be treated to the exclusion of the rest of the body. That's mainly why I can't stand to get involved in these threads - though I do poke my head in.

Pffft, you could use my name. I did ask, after all. And I'd be glad to step in (hopefully promptly) if anything was taken out of context towards you for using my name.

And yes, I believe in treating every horse as an individual. NB shoes/methods work for some horses. Some need wider shoes than NB along the medial and lateral areas (like mine). Some can't take equipak...OMG at how often I've read that P.O. nor founder can take it, yet I've got both problems in one horse and he lives for it! I doubt the horse is "making things up" either. Again, my experience, but also HOW the equipak is administered. :winkgrin:

Glad you posted and your post is reasonable. My youngest horse isn't going to have a shoe nailed on until I decide he needs it, if ever. The free horse - no matter what we do - has got the most awful feet I've seen on a horse.

SO funny you mention this...there was a boarder I dealt with not too long ago that once a week it seemed he was asking, "When do we get this baby shod?" It was really hard not to have a full-on, championship belt winning, nut-up moment. Really, no one knows how hard that was as I was fighting for my horse's life...from poorly put on shoes. His two year old was sound, BTW. NO need for shoes. Like, at all. No reason. Pretty much never. I can say that with confidence.

It would be a crime to ask that horse to go barefoot. In fact - I think it would be abuse. He just can't do it. Why let him hurt? Front shoes and he's happy and sound.

While I handed Jaye an 18-year Jameson's and said hat-in-hand "Jaye, what can I say? I effed up..." Jaye will also say the horse wasn't THAT bad off, his P.O. just started causing him to "feel the ground", it was too early to try barefoot (but we were ALL impressed that he was sound TWO weeks!), and there was no damage done, just a really unhappy horse. Lesson learned. It's not that I won't ever let Bo try barefoot again, but it has to be when Jaye says Bo can. Bo kind of did it on his own that first time. But long story short, oh yes, I understand what you are saying completely. If there is any caudal heel pain, please beware from my experience (P.O.). Otherwise, he sounds like he's just fine!

The field hunter - gets 'em when he needs 'em for work. Otherwise - the money goes on the facelift piggy bank.

I need a lot of work done. :D

Edited to add - I don't doubt there are field hunters that go barefoot. Alas, because of our territory - that is inadvisable; even dangerous. But wow - think of how much money those owners are saving! No shoes, no snow pads, no studs, no borium....... sigh...... I'm jealous!

No kidding about the money they saved! Who you tellin'? Nah really, that's why I mentioned there was differences between our regions...our ice is a joke compared to yours. We had a guest hunt come to our hunt when I lived in that area (Marietta actually), I don't remember if it was W. Virginia or Virginia, but the master was a woman who rode sidesaddle...my hats off to her for being able to last hours doing that, but to top it off on y'all's footing??? Ack!

goeslikestink

Dec. 25, 2007, 07:05 PM

Appassionato

Dec. 26, 2007, 11:59 AM

his fillet string was up his arse and rug falling off

Are you insisting that this horse does not have stringhalt??? That this horse's way of going is due to the blanket sliding off?

And what's a fillet string?

J Swan

Dec. 26, 2007, 12:11 PM

I doubt it has to do with his shoes.......take a look at the post she was replying to. I sincerely doubt the animals ailment has anything to do with his trim.

Appassionato

Dec. 26, 2007, 12:22 PM

I doubt it has to do with his shoes.......take a look at the post she was replying to. I sincerely doubt the animals ailment has anything to do with his trim.

I also doubt that the shoes and trim have anything to do with the horse's ailment. I just found it interesting that stinky posted what she did...hence I asked for clarification.

Auventera Two

Dec. 26, 2007, 12:40 PM

[quote=J.D.;2887244]

his fillet string was up his arse and rug falling off

Hu? :confused: The horse has Stringhalt.

Ja Da Dee

Dec. 26, 2007, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by Lookout
If you want to feel the difference in concussion from shoes vs. barefoot, do a sitting trot on a big moving shod horse, then a barefoot one. There is no 'learning' to absorb the concussion on the barefoot one.

My horse moves completly different when he's shod as opposed to barefoot. When he has shoes, there is a ton more suspension in his gaits, he completes his stride, his back is more supple and he's more willing to move off of his hind end. When we are barefoot, he tends to stab with his front feet and not want to use his engine. He also is a much more confident jumper when he's shod, landing doesn't sting his feet, and he doesn't slip when he has his studs in.

I can ride both shod and un-shod trots, but I MUCH prefer him shod ... he does too. I certainly wouldn't be spending $ on winter shoes if he was happy barefoot in the winter. I pulled his shoes every fall for 4 years, and always had an unhappy, tense horse who was sore in the hind end and shoulders and would object to collected work all winter. Finally a new masseuse mentioned that it feels like his soreness was from not wanting to weight his hind end, and compensating with his front end. Shoes went back on, and we haven't had an issue since.

I am a firm believer in giving each horse what they need to do their jobs in a happy, healthy manner.

7HL

Dec. 26, 2007, 02:01 PM

This is not the whole truth. I post on the JL Board too, and they don't delete posts and ban people for being "pro shoe." They delete and ban for being an ass. ;) As much as I disagree with Patty Stiller, she's a certified NB shoer, and she's probably the #1 "expert" on all things hooves on the JL Board. There are plenty of pro-shoe, as well as pro-bare people there. The mods just don't allow name calling, sniping, and blows below the belt. You can discuss for a 1,000 pages if you want, but when you get nasty - you take your toys and go home. And eventually you're not invited back to the sandbox anymore.

So why did this discussion just start up there ("impacted")? And you are wrong unless you toe the line to what the board feels is the board line you do get banned. Know a farrier on here that has been banned. Also they'll delete threads if its not going in the directing that the person wants. The new "How about theses? "thread was started after the previous one was deleted. Why because a farrier questioned a Strasser groupie's remarks.

It's impossible to have a do what is best for the horse, shoe or no shoe, and not have a barefooter state the evils of being shod. Overall you don't find farrier talking about how evil trimming is and it should never be done. And there in lies the problem.

matryoshka

Dec. 26, 2007, 05:07 PM

J.D.

Dec. 26, 2007, 05:40 PM

[quote=goeslikestink;2890454]

Hu? :confused: The horse has Stringhalt.

didn't say anything about a string up the arse~~~ concussive forces due to a neurological problem and Advil. clip and paste correctly please.

J.D.

Dec. 26, 2007, 05:41 PM

[quote=goeslikestink;2890454]

Hu? :confused: The horse has Stringhalt.

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;2891451]

didn't say anything about a string up the arse~~~ concussive forces due to a neurological problem and Advil. clip and paste correctly please.

i would also when i figure out the manipulation process

Appassionato

Dec. 26, 2007, 08:03 PM

i would also when i figure out the manipulation process

LMAO! :lol:

When quoting a message (this is true here AND at horseshoes), start by making sure there is one set of quote tags. :winkgrin: You'll see it if you "quote" instead of "reply" to this message.

Denali

Dec. 26, 2007, 08:15 PM

the effects of speed and individual gait pattern make comparing these video's impossible.... as many other's have noted on this thread. How can you even guarantee that these are recorded at the same gait?

My MS in Equine Biomechanics does occasionally prove useful ;)

Not weighing in on this issue at all... I just wanted to speak up that if research into the effects of shoes on heel strike kinematics were investigated, each horse would be recorded before/after show application while on a treadmill with speed controlled (plus likely involve the averaging of variables over several recorded strides)

irishcas

Dec. 26, 2007, 08:19 PM

My horse moves completly different when he's shot

I'm sure he does :)

Regards,

Ja Da Dee

Dec. 26, 2007, 08:23 PM

I'm sure he does :)

Regards,

lol ... fixed it (: shod.. shod ... shod

Kit

Dec. 26, 2007, 09:04 PM

It's like anything. If it's needed - do it. I trekked a couple of years ago for 3 days. Great ride. Horses were recommeded to have shoes on. One family - mum, dad and two children - brought their horses and ponies unshod. It was horrific to watch. During day 1, one pony nearly had to be carried it was so sore. By day two, that pony was out, one hack completed the days trek in agony and the others were sore. The last day, the hack was dead lame and looked like it was on hot bricks - never seen a horse walk like that going home (but the owner - a man - still rode it!); the pony was led out and the others were sore on anything but grass. Was a family trekking camp too so not long rides. Basically ride in day one (3 hours), a trek on the second day and ride out (3 hours) on day 3. Our horses were shod - all were fine and comfortable. No comparison. Silly people. If they were not conditioned to be ridden barefoot, why do it. Uh they were shoeless - don't know what sort of trim. I'm with J Swan's comments.