The evils of bare foot trimming & natural balance shoeing that there not telling you [Archive]

jack mac

Dec. 19, 2007, 03:53 AM

What there not telling you is the Base of the pedal bone is covered with a flexabil fibres cartilage membrane ,if constant permanent pressure is continually applied to the sole over a period of time approx 1 to 2 years depending on severity of pressure it will harden, lose all it pliability & shook absorbing capability, in essence it becomes as hard as the bone it is supposed to be to protecting, this at first will be seen to those who dont know better to be a good thing as the horse can tolerate more pressure on his sole, & will be touted as proof by the ignorant the horse dose not need shoes to be ridden on hard ground surfaces , however what they dont realize by this accruing it is putting the pedal bone at risk of multiple microscopic fractures taking place & fatigue to it, if continually prolonged over time neurosis of the pedal bone will occur & the pedal bone will slowly diminish, with irreversible damage taking place & chronic lameness the out come, natural balance shoeing is no better as it eventually leads to the same out come a Little slower but still the same out come as it places the shoe over the sole setting up similar pressures to the cartilage & ultimately fatigue fractures to the pedal bone :)

flyinghorse

Dec. 19, 2007, 05:47 AM

[QUOTE if continually prolonged over time neurosis of the pedal bone will occur QUOTE]

Never heard of a bone getting neurosis...

ChocoMare

Dec. 19, 2007, 06:52 AM

Ahem... show me the documented, peer-reviewed studies on your "hypothesis."

My "Pony Pucks" meter just went off. :rolleyes:

Guin

Dec. 19, 2007, 07:05 AM

There is a punctuation mark called a "period." You might look it up and try using it.

Katy Watts

Dec. 19, 2007, 07:14 AM

It's obvious that you have no understanding of what NB is about. No intelligent discussion is possible.
Katy

Daydream Believer

Dec. 19, 2007, 07:57 AM

Be Warned..this poster has been banned from other boards and is a troll.

ChocoMare

Dec. 19, 2007, 08:00 AM

Be Warned..this poster has been banned from other boards and is a troll.

Hmmm, why doesn't this surprise me? :uhoh:

7HL

Dec. 19, 2007, 08:13 AM

Be Warned..this poster has been banned from other boards and is a troll.

Aren't Trolls lucky? or is that a Gnome?:yes:

So why is it he shouldn't talk or post?:confused:

LMH

Dec. 19, 2007, 08:13 AM

Constant permanent pressure continually applied over the sole...

you mean like a shoe with pads?

Daydream Believer

Dec. 19, 2007, 08:40 AM

Aren't Trolls lucky? or is that a Gnome?:yes:

So why is it he shouldn't talk or post?:confused:

I am only warning people what this poster is like before they "engage" him. I have him on my ignore list due to his rather nasty and obnoxious posts on this forum last time he was here enlightening us with his "knowledge." The title of this thread is asking for a fight...and to me those are the tactics of a troll. Perhaps I am wrong and he is a do gooder and here with no motives but to save horses from evil as he sees it. Dunno.

Now if he'd said "Lets discuss the potential negative long term effects of NB shoeing and natural trimming" than I might not call him a troll. I really see this topic going nowhere but a slugfest if people are stupid enough to engage him.

marta

Dec. 19, 2007, 08:40 AM

work on his spelling.

J Swan

Dec. 19, 2007, 08:41 AM

Be Warned..this poster has been banned from other boards and is a troll.

I'm glad you told me. I was about to go out with a firearm and put all my horses out of their misery - you know - from the shoes and bones and neuroses and whatnot.

Daydream Believer

Dec. 19, 2007, 08:43 AM

I'm glad you told me. I was about to go out with a firearm and put all my horses out of their misery - you know - from the shoes and bones and neuroses and whatnot.

Yeh really. I have about 50 natural trimmed horses on my farm that need to be put out of their misery quickly! :lol::lol: Feel free to get on my site to see examples of the pathetic creatures! ;)

You're welcome!

Moderator 1

Dec. 19, 2007, 08:56 AM

With a potential "troll" warning given, please only post on this thread if further discussion of the original topic is desired. Thanks!

Dianna

Dec. 19, 2007, 09:09 AM

I have to tell you, I personally find this line of posting a hoot .... whether or not the poster is accurate in his/her belief or not ... why is it a topic not worth discussing? Let's face it, if the poster flip/flopped this to the evils of shoes/pads/nails, etc.... the barefoot briggade would be out in force proving the point.

Why isn't this a topic worth exploring and discussing? If not for any other reason than to provide better understanding of the pedal bone and all the issues that surround it or can surround it?

Whether the OP is a troll or not, I am not certain how anybody would know this since most of the posters, the OP included, use fictitious names.

ChocoMare

Dec. 19, 2007, 09:15 AM

Yes, it is worth discussing. However, I would like to know where the OP's data comes from. The tone and manner in which it was posted suggest to me that it is simply personal observation/dislike for this method. In addition, said tone/manner of posting does not lend itself to open discussion but rather a blasting of NB.

Tory Relic

Dec. 19, 2007, 09:27 AM

Edited to adhere to Mod1's request.

Auventera Two

Dec. 19, 2007, 09:31 AM

Regarding the original post -

Prove it.

Rick Burten

Dec. 19, 2007, 09:35 AM

Rick Burten

Dec. 19, 2007, 09:45 AM

Never heard of a bone getting neurosis...

WHAT??? You've never heard of a bone that has a mental imbalance that causes distress?? Where have you been all these years? Have you never heard the expression "Bonehead"? :D

Or perhaps Jacko was referring to this: http://www.neurotrecordings.com/artists/neurosis/index.aspx

Anyone ever seen a pedal bone jamming with this group?

deltawave

Dec. 19, 2007, 10:38 AM

J Swan

Dec. 19, 2007, 11:50 AM

I think it's a shame that this otherwise interesting topic has to be dominated by the slavering fundamentalists on the uttermost right wing and the uttermost left wing of the spectrum of beliefs. Very much like politics in that regard, and very much human nature.

Can the extremists on both sides of this issue kindly SHUT UP for once and let moderate, rational thought prevail so that those of us who don't have a visceral investment in one "side" or the other can possibly LEARN something?

No, I didn't think so. :sigh:

:yes::yes::yes:

I never understood why folks get so extreme in their views on this subject. I realize science has not discovered all the mysteries of the equine hoof - but geez louise - enough already. Shoe the horse, don't shoe the horse. Different trims for different reasons. There isn't some greater "Truth" out there known only to a select few that have the magic decoder ring.

Sometimes I wonder if folks are actually riding their horses at all.

grayarabpony

Dec. 19, 2007, 12:38 PM

I'm glad you told me. I was about to go out with a firearm and put all my horses out of their misery - you know - from the shoes and bones and neuroses and whatnot.

OK I didn't really want to post on this thread but I have to post this: :lol::lol::lol:

Appassionato

Dec. 19, 2007, 12:39 PM

:yes::yes::yes:

I never understood why folks get so extreme in their views on this subject. I realize science has not discovered all the mysteries of the equine hoof - but geez louise - enough already. Shoe the horse, don't shoe the horse. Different trims for different reasons. There isn't some greater "Truth" out there known only to a select few that have the magic decoder ring.

Sometimes I wonder if folks are actually riding their horses at all.

Well, usually I can't, but today we are going to have about a 10 minute walk! :D

But seriously, yes, I completely agree. I have nothing against NB, the NB shoes as designed aren't what Jaye wants to put on my horse. As far as trimming...to the more passionate posters' defense, a lot of damage can happen from incorrect trimming, whether or not it's shod. And of course not all hoof abnormalities are caused by shoes.

Now, I do have to nitpick at ONE thing, since I am usually IN the hoof threads...if you're trying to learn, have you thought about asking questions? I don't mean that as smartalec as it reads in font, it's just that I've read it often enough that folks are ticked about the fighting (understood all on it's own) because they are trying to learn, yet I never see these same folks ask questions. That is genuinely concerning to me; I don't like folks feeling like they can't ask questions for fear of persecution and having to defend themselves. But in that I find ou J Swan and deltawave as two women that can normally defend their own...why no questions?

feetfirst

Dec. 19, 2007, 12:45 PM

Deltawave, you got that right...
Odd thing about horse's feet, they tolerate alot of krap and still function well. You know the type, never take a wrong step, never lame, shoes left on for 6 months, or the hack job done by three blind mice who couldn't find level if you drew chalk lines on the hoof wall for them. When I started shoeing I know I wasn't perfect, and no one died:eek:
The more I shoe, the less I know about absolutes.
But the more I trust not to worship a new disciple, because dead greeks don't lie.

jack mac

Dec. 19, 2007, 04:44 PM

[QUOTE if continually prolonged over time neurosis of the pedal bone will occur QUOTE]

Never heard of a bone getting neurosis...Sorry excuse the spelling error i didnt mean to confuse vascular necrosis of the bone i was referring to :)

deltawave

Dec. 19, 2007, 05:51 PM

I ask hoof care questions TO MY FARRIER, whom I trust, and who knows my horses. Duh. :) One learns a lot by observing and listening to experts debate, and that's a good reason to check in now and then on interesting topics, but there IS no debate on this topic--just one-upmanship and nasty attacks from side to side. More's the pity. :no:

jack mac

Dec. 19, 2007, 06:20 PM

Well HI, Jacko

See you're still trying to peddle the same tripe here that got you banned over at horseshoes.com.

Folks,

Jacko claims to be deaf so that is his excuse for his poor spelling and command of the English language. Problem is, when he wants to, he is able to write with lucidity, proper spelling and correct punctuation. Of course, that only happens every eon or so.

You should also know that every time Jacko was requested to post some photos of his work, or to substantiate any of his "statements" with cites, he crawfished, waffled and obfusicated, to the point where he never once met the request.

Those of us who frequent horseshoes.com, usually enjoyed toying with him much as a cat toys with a mouse. And when we tired of that game, we just ignored him. Much as I am now going to (mostly) do here.

As an official popcorn concessionaire, I am now accepting orders to help us through the coming entertainment. Cash, check, money order and credit/debit cards are welcome.Mr Burten sourer grape's again i see, why dont you be a little bit more truth full your self on the subject, you have called me a liar in no uncertain terms on more than one occasion due to your need to bolster your credibility, if I'm not mistaken you asked for proof over a week ago to substantiate i do in fact put horses down, i posted my lic for the humane destruction of live stock in my signature in good faith & what did i receive for it ? or am i a liar ? what you haven't pointed out to the folks on this forum is that you are one of the moderator on the farriers forum & a good friend of baron & like to debate issues with a stacked deck, when ever you start losing in a debate or shown to be wrong you & baron edit delete & ban that person for sufficient time, so they cant responded & look foolish, yet you keep posting to give the impression they have left the debate or can't answers your questions , why dont you debate me here on this thread on your beloved NB protocol, instead of cowardly simple trying to discredit me with slanderous remarks ;)

Guin

Dec. 19, 2007, 06:27 PM

Once again, it is called a PERIOD. You use it at the END OF A SENTENCE. :rolleyes:

jack mac

Dec. 19, 2007, 06:31 PM

In other words, Jack is indeed a lazy boy while typing? Not dyslexic?

Ah yes...the "protein founder" was fascinating! He could call names all day long, but no evidence. Not ONE shred. Good stuff though!

Oh no!!! Considering the trauma my sinker's P3's went through...oh dear...the hoofworms that bolted from the scene...should I be worried??? What can I do??? Could Bo's P3's eventually turn on him, after that kind of abuse? :winkgrin:One can only hope your a little kinder to your horses ? No wonder so many Americans have to live on the streets in card board boxes such compassion for those less fortunate:sadsmile:

jack mac

Dec. 19, 2007, 06:36 PM

Once again, it is called a PERIOD. You use it at the END OF A SENTENCE. :rolleyes:sorry my mistake gezzzzzzzz how life threatening, is the world really going to end ;)

JoZ

Dec. 19, 2007, 06:56 PM

sorry my mistake gezzzzzzzz how life threatening, is the world really going to end ;)

No and apparently neither is your sentence it's very hard to read and follow and those are two important qualities for the written language when you are trying to communicate with people who have to read it maybe you are easy to understand in person or maybe you're a raving nutcase but all we have on a forum is what you write and I can't figure it out.

Rick Burten

Dec. 19, 2007, 06:57 PM

Mr Burten sourer grape's again i see, why dont you be a little bit more truth full your self on the subject, you have called me a liar in no uncertain terms on more than one occasion due to your need to bolster your credibility,
It is absolutely correct that I have, on numerous occasions referred to you as a prevaricater. To date, nothing has changed my impression of you.
if I'm not mistaken you asked for proof over a week ago to substantiate i do in fact put horses down,
You may have me confused with someone else. Or not...
i posted my lic for the humane destruction of live stock in my signature in good faith & what did i receive for it ? or am i a liar ?
Never saw this alleged information.
what you haven't pointed out to the folks on this forum is that you are one of the moderator on the farriers forum & a good friend of baron & like to debate issues with a stacked deck, when ever you start losing in a debate or shown to be wrong you & baron edit delete & ban that person for sufficient time, so they cant responded & look foolish,
With the exception of the fact that I am indeed a moderator at horseshoes.com and that Baron is indeed a friend of mine, that is an outright, absolute and complete lie. Why am I not surprised? By the way Jack, you should be sending Baron a Thank You note for his efforts on your behalf to, as you so accurately put it, keep you from looking foolish. LOL!
yet you keep posting to give the impression they have left the debate or can't answers your questions ,
Actually, since you never answer questions when they are asked, whether it is the first or umpteenth time, the impressions left, are with regard to you as made by you.
why dont you debate me here on this thread on your beloved NB protocol,
You've had your chance to discuss the NB protocols and you crawfished, waffled and obfusicated away. You don't want to debate or discuss, you just want to denigrate and play the fool. Well, I don't suffer fools much if at all anymore. And you've just about played out your string.
instead of cowardly simple trying to discredit me with slanderous remarks ;)
ROTFLMFAO! If you feel wronged, tell the judge. If you feel slandered, prove it. You're all buckle and no belt.

By the way Jack, I don't have to try and discredit you. You do an admirable job of that all by yourself.

But this being the Holiday Season, here's a bit of Holiday advise for you. Try a different flavor of koolaid.

Popcorn anyone?

Appassionato

Dec. 19, 2007, 07:06 PM

One can only hope your a little kinder to your horses ? No wonder so many Americans have to live on the streets in card board boxes such compassion for those less fortunate:sadsmile:

That dog don't hunt, jackmac. I was diagnosed as dyslexic as well. And here's another checkmark for my integrity: I refuse to be given special testing provisions! How did you handle it? Oh...wait...nevermind.

And the "Americans that have to live on the streets" guilt-trip, give me a break! What a lame reply!

jack mac

Dec. 19, 2007, 07:14 PM

Now lets not let old wacko Jacko's poor spelling & grammar hinder the facts of what takes place to that fibres membrane if jarring & undue pressures are applied to it, would you agree then doubters, that in side bone it is constant jarring & pressure that causes it to harden & ossify & eventual calcify & fussing its self to & becoming part of the pedal bone, so whats so difficult in excepting that the fibres membrane, made up of smiler cell tissue to protect the peddle bone can't follow the same proses if the same forces are applied ? maybe Mr Burten can give his expert opinion & answer :)

Appassionato

Dec. 19, 2007, 07:20 PM

deltawave

Dec. 19, 2007, 07:23 PM

It's been what, two weeks since the last trainwreck got the ENTIRE TOPIC shut down? :rolleyes: It's just a matter of time. Well done, people. :dead:

J Swan

Dec. 19, 2007, 07:27 PM

That is genuinely concerning to me; I don't like folks feeling like they can't ask questions for fear of persecution and having to defend themselves. But in that I find ou J Swan and deltawave as two women that can normally defend their own...why no questions?

Simple answer - I usually just lurk and have no questions - just read and mull it over.

Actually - I have started or asked questions in a couple of threads in the past. Though I may seem able to hold my own - I really am never interested in debating or arguing. Things just work out that way sometimes.

Been through founder - all 4 - wouldn't wish that nightmare on anyone. :cry:

I'm glad the OP corrected his neurotic error. My mother is like that and it's hell having dinner with her.

ETA - Wow. Seems like a catfight has started. Take it outside, boys. You'll get dirt all over the furniture.

jack mac

Dec. 19, 2007, 07:32 PM

That dog don't hunt, jackmac. I was diagnosed as dyslexic as well. And here's another checkmark for my integrity: I refuse to be given special testing provisions! How did you handle it? Oh...wait...nevermind.

And the "Americans that have to live on the streets" guilt-trip, give me a break! What a lame reply!i have no trouble with excepting insults about my poor English skills, but i strongly detest insult on my English skills being thrown up at me time & time again as a reason to discredit any scientific validity i put forward :mad: & for the record lady, i haven't heard or spoken a word for 49 years so i doubt ill ever master English properly, but I'm working on it one gets tied of the Rick burdens of the word using it as an out to proper scientific debate ;)

Appassionato

Dec. 19, 2007, 07:36 PM

Thanks J Swan and deltawave for the honest answers!

J Swan, I remember you mentioning that you had a horse to founder on all fours before...I'm guessing this horse was a metabolic case?

irishcas

Dec. 19, 2007, 07:38 PM

i have no trouble with excepting insults about my poor English skills, but i strongly detest insult on my English skills being thrown up at me time & time again as a reason to discredit any scientific validity i put forward :mad: & for the record lady, i haven't heard or spoken a word for 49 years so i doubt ill ever master English properly, but I'm working on it one gets tied of the Rick burdens of the word using it as an out to proper scientific debate ;)

I have 3 deaf brothers and sisters (born that way) and I have yet to see them use that as an excuse for anything.

Are you really deaf, were you born that way? Do you use ASL? Totally OT but I'm curious?

Regards,

jack mac

Dec. 19, 2007, 07:53 PM

What question does this answer belong to?what I'm asking do you think the same processes of jarring & undue pressure to the fibres cartilage membrane that protects the base of the pedal bone, could harden ossify & calcify ,in the same manner that we know cartilage involved in side bone does & we know the cause to be jarring & undue pressure, yes or no ?

J Swan

Dec. 19, 2007, 08:00 PM

Thanks J Swan and deltawave for the honest answers!

J Swan, I remember you mentioning that you had a horse to founder on all fours before...I'm guessing this horse was a metabolic case?

Oh - that was a long time ago. It may even have been the reason I joined this BB. I don't remember.

It was a bit of a drama and involved lawyers and broken friendships. At the time, we thought the founder may have been the result of an infection, or even a granulosa cell tumor - there was no reason for her to have foundered. No metabolic issues - nothing. However, x rays revealed she had foundered before.

I later learned that the druggie weirdo barn manager had decided I didn't know my ass from my elbow when it came to horses and thought my horse was too skinny. So....... she had been giving her large amounts of grain without my knowledge.

Unfortunately, the information came much much too late.

Not very interesting. Just very sad. With the help of folks on the breeding forum - I did find her last known owner and asked how the mare was doing, and offered a permanent retirement home if one was ever needed. No reply. She's probably dead by now.

And that's the rest of the story.

Appassionato

Dec. 19, 2007, 08:04 PM

what I'm asking do you think the same processes of jarring & undue pressure to the fibres cartilage membrane that protects the base of the pedal bone, could harden ossify & calcify ,in the same manner that we know cartilage involved in side bone does & we know the cause to be jarring & undue pressure, yes or no ?

Too much information missing. The "jarring and undue pressure" could also result in pedal osteitis, or mechanical founder. I'm sure the farriers or even other horse owners could comment as well. I know a horse that not only has the craziest sidebone x-rays I've ever seen, but it also mechanically foundered. I can't remember if it suffered fractures or not...

Appassionato

Dec. 19, 2007, 08:08 PM

Oh - that was a long time ago. It may even have been the reason I joined this BB. I don't remember.

It was a bit of a drama and involved lawyers and broken friendships. At the time, we thought the founder may have been the result of an infection, or even a granulosa cell tumor - there was no reason for her to have foundered. No metabolic issues - nothing. However, x rays revealed she had foundered before.

I later learned that the druggie weirdo barn manager had decided I didn't know my ass from my elbow when it came to horses and thought my horse was too skinny. So....... she had been giving her large amounts of grain without my knowledge.

Unfortunately, the information came much much too late.

Not very interesting. Just very sad. With the help of folks on the breeding forum - I did find her last known owner and asked how the mare was doing, and offered a permanent retirement home if one was ever needed. No reply. She's probably dead by now.

And that's the rest of the story.

So sorry J Swan! Hindsight is 20/20, and it stinks sometimes.

jack mac

Dec. 19, 2007, 08:15 PM

I have 3 deaf brothers and sisters (born that way) and I have yet to see them use that as an excuse for anything.

Are you really deaf, were you born that way? Do you use ASL? Totally OT but I'm curious?

Regards,I'm sorry to hear that your siblings have hearing issues ,sorry but that's as much info I'm going to give you on me, iv taken a lot of canning for it on the farriers forum & still do made the mistake of thinking they were friendly people at first that you could be open with, big big mistake on my part :)

jack mac

Dec. 19, 2007, 08:21 PM

Too much information missing. The "jarring and undue pressure" could also result in pedal osteitis, or mechanical founder. I'm sure the farriers or even other horse owners could comment as well. I know a horse that not only has the craziest sidebone x-rays I've ever seen, but it also mechanically foundered. I can't remember if it suffered fractures or not...so you dont think cartilage can ossify or calcify due to undue pressure or continual jarring, yes or no ?

jack mac

Dec. 19, 2007, 08:42 PM

Were have you got to Mr rick burten, you dont want to flounder on your big chance to show me up as a no nothing fool & miss out on telling the forum how grate NB shoeing is for there horses feet, ligaments & tendons.

irishcas

Dec. 19, 2007, 08:45 PM

I'm sorry to hear that your siblings have hearing issues ,sorry but that's as much info I'm going to give you on me, iv taken a lot of canning for it on the farriers forum & still do made the mistake of thinking they were friendly people at first that you could be open with, big big mistake on my part :)

There is nothing to be sorry for and they have no issues, that was kind of my point. Deaf people usually don't like to be told their being deaf is something to be sorry for.

Okay well I wasn't going to be nasty just curious.

Lookout

Dec. 19, 2007, 08:46 PM

so you dont think cartilage can ossify or calcify due to undue pressure or continual jarring, yes or no ?
I've opened up my share of cadaver feet and not one had any cartilage under the pedal bone, fibrous or otherwise. Where do you get this information?

Auventera Two

Dec. 19, 2007, 08:53 PM

Are you talking about sidebone, which is hardening of the ungular cartilages? There is no fibrocartilage underneath P3. The cartilages extend down around the palmar processes, but I don't know of any cartilage underneath P3, particularly toward the anterior portion.

Solar corium is located distal to the pedal bone. Is that what you're talking about?

So - am I just not understanding the question or what??

Appassionato

Dec. 19, 2007, 09:10 PM

so you dont think cartilage can ossify or calcify due to undue pressure or continual jarring, yes or no ?

Where are you going with this? And since you won't/can't back up your claims (as usual), why are you quizzing *me* in such an angry manner? While angered at someone else?

jack mac

Dec. 19, 2007, 10:15 PM

jack mac

Dec. 19, 2007, 10:17 PM

Where are you going with this? And since you won't/can't back up your claims (as usual), why are you quizzing *me* in such an angry manner? While angered at someone else?im not i just hope you will lsiten to what i have to say before discrediting me first thats all:)

jack mac

Dec. 19, 2007, 11:53 PM

Have we all court on to what membrane I'm talking about ? i apologise for my poor interpretation skills :)

jack mac

Dec. 20, 2007, 01:56 AM

..... from having to tolerate fools & putting good horses down from bad practices , theses are not new ideas that as they are touted BF & NB they were around a hundred years ago & were condemn then as being flawed & detrimental to the horses through trial & error & rightful abandoned, sadly there back again, all polished up with a new spin on them for the next lot of misfortunes horses to be guineapigs & wear the price. maybe i am a troll & just dont know it:)

Moderator 2

Dec. 20, 2007, 05:02 AM

OK guys, PLEASE

1) DO NOT FEED the trolls - if you feel the OP is a troll, PUT him/her on YOUR ignore list. Don't respond and keep the thread up.

2)DO NOT get personal - you should know this by now. This is about horses, not people. Keep the personal stuff out.

We do not want to close this, as the discussion of shoeing/not shoeing is important, but, stick to the information, not personalities.

Thanks.

Auventera Two

Dec. 20, 2007, 08:40 AM

Periosteum solar corium ;)

Ok - so I think I see what you're getting at....

You are saying that since all bones are covered in a periosteum which contains fibroplasts and osteoblasts which are responsible for turning to bone, increased pressure to the solar surface of the hoof will eventually cause the density and surface area of P3 to increase?

Is that what you're saying?

I am not an expert, but I do know that what happens is a decrease of bone material to P3 under constant pressure. This is the case with untreated, or incorrectly treated founders. The dorsal tip of the pedal bone models according to the pressure.

I have a cadaver leg at home that literally has no pedal bone except for a small nub. It was from a pony who was chronically and severely foundered for years with no treatment. The rotation did not cause sole penetration, but because the diet wasn't changed, the pony was never treated, the bone continued to demineralize over several years until it was gone.

So if your argument is that increased pressure creates increased bone mass, then I would have to disagree, as I don't know of this ever being the case. But by all means, correct me if I'm wrong! I'm just trying to learn too.

Okay - now what are you saying is "not new tactics?" Barefooted horses? I don't believe anyone has said that the barefoot movement is "new and revolutionary" as clearly horses were bare footed long before they were shod. The trim methods and certification programs we have today were developed out of a desire for more complete hoof knowledge, and owners wanting to be directly involved in the trimming and care of their horse's feet.

And just so you know - I don't know of any "natural" trimming method that advocates fully loading the sole, so it bears 100% of the weight. In fact, most of them teach that the load bearing surface of the hoof is usually located around the distal border of the sole, at it's junction with the white line, the inner wall, the frog, perhaps the toe callous, and the heel purchase. NONE of them teach trimming to achieve a flat foot, which is what would be necessary to have the sole bearing 100% of the weight.

The trim that I do aims to develop healthy soft tissue (digital cushion, ungular cartiliages, ligaments, and tendons) in the foot and distal limb so that the coffin bone is in the correct position. When this happens, the foot isn't flat at all. Obviously, if the horse is working on sand, the sole is more fully weighted, but....um....if the sole of the horse weren't meant to share some of the work....why would God, or (whomever/whater???) design the horse to have a sole on the bottom of its foot, directly in contact with the ground surface?

So perhaps you can clarify more? I honestly don't know what you're trying to say here, but what you're implying isn't the truth at all.

feetfirst

Dec. 20, 2007, 09:19 AM

All good questions A2. I often ponder the role that the sole plays in foot function. I have seen feral horses with a fully engaged sole, the frog fills the commisures and in fact is attached to the sole from the point of the frog to about mid way back. Often the outer wall is rolled from constant movement, to the point that a thinner wall is making ground contact, and the horse appears to move well.
There is a farrier that I know that leaves all the sole, he knifes the crease at the frog, but leaves the bars full. He recesses the sole at the white line/shoe junction, and all seems well.
Just stuff you ponder while your working and only have horses to talk to.

Rick Burten

Dec. 20, 2007, 09:34 AM

i have no trouble with excepting insults about my poor English skills, but i strongly detest insult on my English skills being thrown up at me time & time again as a reason to discredit any scientific validity i put forward
Though I am reluctant to do so, I feel it necessary to point out that you have not ever put forward anything that even remotely resembles "scientific validity", even when repeatedly pressed to do so, to substantiate your claims.
& for the record lady, i haven't heard or spoken a word for 49 years so i doubt ill ever master English properly, but I'm working on it
Amazing how good your command of the English language becomes when you want it to be so.
one gets tied of the Rick burdens of the word using it as an out to proper scientific debate ;)
Whats a "Rick burdens of the word"?

Further, I(and others) am more than willing and able to engage you in a proper scientific debate. Problem is, you've never offered anything of a scientific nature to either discuss or debate.
what I'm asking do you think the same processes of jarring & undue pressure to the fibres cartilage membrane that protects the base of the pedal bone, could harden ossify & calcify ,in the same manner that we know cartilage involved in side bone does & we know the cause to be jarring & undue pressure, yes or no ?
1. There is no cartilage membrane("fibers"(sic) or otherwise) that protects the base(solar surface) of the pedal bone. Perhaps you are instead referring to the digital cushion which In the foal and in the colt, is composed of fibro-fatty, soft tissue andin the adult horse it hardens into a fibrocartilagineous tissue?
2. If by "jarring" you refer to concussion of a regular/ high frequency, particularly when the hooves are out of balance and the horse is worked on hard ground, then yes, I do concur that this is a leading cause of sidebone formation. Nothing new there.
3. Please define "undue pressure". What is it, how does it occur, when does it occur, how is it measured, how is it remediated?
4. With regard to your "Yes or No" question, No.
Were have you got to Mr rick burten, you dont want to flounder on your big chance to show me up as a no nothing fool
Your eloquence speaks for itself.
& miss out on telling the forum how grate NB shoeing is for there horses feet, ligaments & tendons.
The protocols and their demonstrable successes, when properly understood and correctly applied, speak for themselves.

Auventera Two

Dec. 20, 2007, 10:12 AM

The protocols and their demonstrable successes, when properly understood and correctly applied, speak for themselves.

[RE: Natural Balance]

Rick - what's your opinion on the increased number of hyper keratinized horn lesions at the toe on NB shod horses, or those barefoot with extreme "toe rockers." Were you at the Hoof Care Summit when KC presented this paper in the general session? I'm not sure what year that would have been.

I admit I know very very little about it. Have read a bit online, and listened to his presentation, but that's about it. It's something I have a vested interest in though for easons explained later.

I've seen some of them in cadavers. Something is causing it, and it is apparently being associated with short, squared toes concentrating too much pressure near the tip of P3. Unlike a keratoma, which isn't always located at toe, the KHK is always found at the toe. Also, there is something else about the histology (correct term??) of this lesion versus a keratoma that makes it not a "true" keratoma. But I can't remember that info.

I have seen this on two live horses. One is my friend's trail horse who has extremely short, rather upright, and boxy, square toed feet. They are quite huge on her feet. Her farrier was treating it as white line disease for years and has never made any progress. The mare now has the characteristic "conical rise in the sole" just behind the visible spot on the sole/white line. There is no lameness, but there has been no improvement over the last 5-7 years or so.

The other was on my own QH. She had terrible hoof form for years, and went through a stint of NB shoeing, followed by St. Croix eventer shoes with the toe rather signifigantly "brought back" to the shoe, which was set back.

She developed the very distinct black notch at the junction of sole to white line. At the time I didn't know what it was, and my farrier didn't say much either. When I started trimming her myself, I was a bit afraid to bring the toes back and dramatically as my farrier had been, so out of default, the toes were allowed to get longer than ideal. But - the abnormality at both toes disapeared, which would be consistent with the research the concentrated pressure from a very short toe and/or rocker is what initiates the growth. Her toes are now back appropriately, but not too short. The spots have not returned. I believe KC said it's been noted that the lesions can improve or appear to disapear all together, but I can't recall what he said about how completely they can resolve. You can see these lesions on xray if the machine is set at a specific KV, and taken from a very specific angle, which also, I can't recall right now. lol. That's why I take notes - but don't have them with me.

It's a very interesting topic to me, as it's so new, and I really don't know much about it at all. Apparently this is what a lot of people refer to as "seedy toe" but as obvious in cadaver disection, there is an actual GROWTH inside the capsule, unlike true seedy toe, which is an infection.

Here are some photos. First one is a cadaver capsule pic I took out in Idaho. 2nd pic is my own mare, and I've marked the spot.

And please for the love of pete - no attacks on me, or KC. Just give your opinions on this topic. Thank you.

Appassionato

Dec. 20, 2007, 10:38 AM

It also does not make sense for the periosteum to be part of the solar corium, since that tissue usually covers bone (P3 in this location). I've never heard of solar corium calcifying, so I'll make the leap that we're trying to force the issue of bone remineralization again. There's no reports of this happening other than ski tips and other strange abnormalities. I'll go on another limb here, since the experts studying this phenomenom haven't gotten this figured out, the periosteum on the pony's P3 that A2 was talking about, like the bone has been destroyed, the periosteum might have been as well. There was no rehabbing that pony even if the diet had been straightened out before euthing it. For the pony's sake, I'm glad it's at rest.

So I agree with A2 and Rick. As I said in a long-locked thread, I find it so hard to believe that a horse will remineralize bone by building bigger bone chips, but won't attach them to the P3. That's just a bit too far fetched.

As far as that spot you're talking about A2, I've seen that on quite a few horses in my area. They either do that, or crack the toe wall dorsally into the white line, sometimes all the way to the edge of the sole. I'v always thought it was separation mostly by mechanical means.

Rick Burten

Dec. 20, 2007, 11:48 AM

[RE: Natural Balance]

Rick - what's your opinion on the increased number of hyper keratinized horn lesions at the toe on NB shod horses, or those barefoot with extreme "toe rockers."
I have not found that there is an increased number of hyper keratinized horne lesions and I and my partner shoe a lot of(but not all) horses with the NB protocols and products.
Were you at the Hoof Care Summit when KC presented this paper in the general session?
I was at both the Summit and his presentation. :) The presentation was interesting, somewhat thought provoking, but I have not as yet bought into the theory. It would be nice if someone had the time and money to try and duplicate the work/findings.
It's something I have a vested interest in though for easons explained later.
I understand. But understand this too, its something KC has a vested interest in too.
I've seen some of them in cadavers. Something is causing it, and it is apparently being associated with short, squared toes concentrating too much pressure near the tip of P3.
I have seen this anomoly in barefoot horses of all trimming disciplines, shod horses wearing any number of different shoes with either a set back toe or a fit full to the toe fit. As far as I know, KC is the only one who has drawn the conclusion that short, squared toes are responsible for this anomoly.
there is something else about the histology (correct term??) of this lesion versus a keratoma that makes it not a "true" keratoma. But I can't remember that info.
I am not aware of anyone calling this a keratoma, "true" or otherwise.
I have seen this on two live horses. One is my friend's trail horse who has extremely short, rather upright, and boxy, square toed feet. They are quite huge on her feet. Her farrier was treating it as white line disease for years and has never made any progress. The mare now has the characteristic "conical rise in the sole" just behind the visible spot on the sole/white line. There is no lameness, but there has been no improvement over the last 5-7 years or so.
These anomolies have also been said to be related to a crenna in the center of the dorsal leading edge of p3. Different researchers/investigators in examining cadaver hooves, have found both this "notch" in the coffin bone, and a corresponding raised ridge running the length of the inside of the hoof capsule. It has been postulated that this arrangement acts much like a lock and key, helping to stabilize the coffin bone against medial-lateral movement. That said, I also note that this arrangement has not been found in each and every instance. Just another piece of the puzzle that we have to deal with.
The other was on my own QH. She had terrible hoof form for years, and went through a stint of NB shoeing, followed by St. Croix eventer shoes with the toe rather signifigantly "brought back" to the shoe, which was set back.
It is necessary to understand that the application of any orthotic without fully understanding the whys and wherefores, is going to eventually be doomed to failure.
She developed the very distinct black notch at the junction of sole to white line. At the time I didn't know what it was, and my farrier didn't say much either. When I started trimming her myself, I was a bit afraid to bring the toes back and dramatically as my farrier had been, so out of default, the toes were allowed to get longer than ideal.
OTOH, perhaps bringing the toes back as you described was not the ideal and where you left them, is.
But - the abnormality at both toes disapeared, which would be consistent with the research the concentrated pressure from a very short toe and/or rocker is what initiates the growth.
Perhaps, perhaps not. There has not been enough independent research/study to really draw that or any other conclusion.
Her toes are now back appropriately, but not too short. The spots have not returned.
I rest my case. :)
I believe KC said it's been noted that the lesions can improve or appear to disapear all together, but I can't recall what he said about how completely they can resolve. You can see these lesions on xray if the machine is set at a specific KV, and taken from a very specific angle,
Which in and of itself would seem to contradict KC's theory.
And please for the love of pete - no attacks on me, or KC. Just give your opinions on this topic. Thank you.
Did I do OK?

Rick Burten

Dec. 20, 2007, 12:03 PM

It also does not make sense for the periosteum to be part of the solar corium,
Correct.
I've never heard of solar corium calcifying,
Absent one luminary(who has a presence on these forums), to my knowledge, neither has anyone else.
so I'll make the leap that we're trying to force the issue of bone remineralization again. There's no reports of this happening other than ski tips and other strange abnormalities.
"Ski tips" are not remineralization, rather they are the visible effects of bone remodeling.
There is also no evidence that if the pedal bone demineralizes and there is bone loss(which there always, by definition, is)that the periosteum remains intact. Quite the contrary actually.
I find it so hard to believe that a horse will remineralize bone by building bigger bone chips, but won't attach them to the P3.
Osteophyte formation is some different than building bigger bone, chips or otherwise. Too often, when there is a fracture(s) of the pedal bone, the healing that rejoins the two(or more) sides of the fracture, is accomplished via the formation of fibro-cartilage(scar) tissue rather than true ossification of the fracture. If the fracture extends into the joint, then we often do see ossification occurring. In that instance, is is ossification due to osteophytes and is most generally referred to as Low Ringbone. Note: low ringbone has other causes not related to articular fractures of p3.)

Auventera Two

Dec. 20, 2007, 12:27 PM

The HKH theory is new, and apparently there is plenty of study to be done yet. Thanks Rick for your thoughts.

The disappearance of the lesions (?) from my mare's feet certainly aren't proof of anything, it's just something I've made note of. In reality, no one knows for absolute sure what this anomaly is or is being caused by. I think there's a lot of research to be done yet.

I've heard both theories that the notch at the tip of P3 (crena marginalis) is a normal part of anatomy, or that it is a pathology. And particularly because not every horse has it.

I find it interesting that Stephen O'Grady says this:

"Excessive toe length or a clubfoot may compromise the blood supply associated with this normal anatomical notch in the third phalanx called the crena marginalis (Figure 2B). If the circulation is continually affected, the commonly found "seedy toe" lesion may progress to WLD."

He refers to the notch as normal, but being associated with compromised blood supply due to excessive toe length or club foot. Those pathologies are not "normal" and so neither would the notch be - or so one would think.

FortheFunofitFarm

Dec. 20, 2007, 01:48 PM

Every cadaver I have opened with a crenna at the toe, has had a corresponding notch in P3, but Rick, can you please expound and go a little more into location of the corresponding raised ridge running the length of the inside of the hoof capsule that you mentioned? I'd like to look for it on my next one.

I have not noticed short or squared toes on the cadavers that I have seen with this condition. I have seen it on bare hooves and shod hooves. I have noticed that they have all been on relatively large horses with larger feet. Have yet to see it on a lighter horse, smaller or even what I would call average sized feet.

My first reaction was that it could be caused by insufficient trimming or wearing of the bars therefore causing upward pressure caudally on P3 and causing a reduction in circulation of the circumflex artery. Pressurized degeneration without rotation.....??? Just my thoughts...

Anyone know if this ever been seen in wild horses or only domesticated ones?

A2, do you have x-rays of your mare by chance? If it were considered a normal part of anatomy, wouldn't it have been noticed long ago?

LMH

Dec. 20, 2007, 01:54 PM

AT from what I remember that KC said (again going on memory), the lesions can NOT totally resolve.

As the balance gets more 'correct' the lesion can reduce in size but never goes away completely.

Auventera Two

Dec. 20, 2007, 02:17 PM

Every cadaver I have opened with a crenna at the toe, has had a corresponding notch in P3, but Rick, can you please expound and go a little more into location of the that you mentioned? I'd like to look for it on my next one.

I have not noticed short or squared toes on the cadavers that I have seen with this condition. I have seen it on bare hooves and shod hooves. I have noticed that they have all been on relatively large horses with larger feet. Have yet to see it on a lighter horse, smaller or even what I would call average sized feet.

The majority of the cadavers I've seen were TB racehorses, as that's what was most available to the school. The feet were the average size 0 to 1 or so (so pretty small). I've only seen a few cadavers that were from large horses, or drafts. I have some other cadavers that are from ponies, and light riding horses, but none of the ones I have have the HKH.

A2, do you have x-rays of your mare by chance? If it were considered a normal part of anatomy, wouldn't it have been noticed long ago?

I do have xrays, but nothing digital to post. All film. They were taken for the purpose of examining high ringbone, so the vet actually cut off bottom and tim of P3 on the films.

Auventera Two

Dec. 20, 2007, 02:22 PM

AT from what I remember that KC said (again going on memory), the lesions can NOT totally resolve.

As the balance gets more 'correct' the lesion can reduce in size but never goes away completely.

Ok, thanks for the correction. I couldn't remember. And without notes, I "really" can't remember. :lol:

LMH

Dec. 20, 2007, 02:23 PM

grayarabs

Dec. 20, 2007, 02:41 PM

In the magazine "The Horse's Hoof" Issue 24 - summer 2006 there is article, "Uncovering the Black Hole" by KCLP. I will have to re-read it - again - because I really did not understand it. Anyone read it that mag? There are a few points I could type here - copyright? And/or is this article on his website? Very interesting.
JackMack - although I don't understand your theories I am willing to listen to someone with that much passion for hooves and horses. I am a barefooter and often wonder were I to ride the Tevis - which I never will - if shoes necessary - what I would use. Previously all my horses wore kegs - nothing new or fancy. I do have to say - something about the NB shoe rubs me the wrong way. I don't understand the point of using them - the mechanics - why/when etc. I saw an awful representative on HS.com of a NB shod horse - and/but all agreed the shoe too small for the horse. In a nutshell could someone explain what the NB shoe is supposed to do? I, too, have read various places where that shoe has caused problems.

Auventera Two

Dec. 20, 2007, 02:51 PM

AT the TB race horse cadavers are the ones you saw with the HKH? If so, they would certainly not have been shod with NB shoes?

Interestingly my now retired show hunter wore NB shoes for YEARS...no HKH.

That's right. I was under the impression that incorrect pressure is what the theory states as the possible cause. Incorrect pressure I imagine could come from abnormally long toes, or abnormally short toes.

No need to get crabby Leah. I know very little about it, that's why I asked the questions of Rick, to see what info he had.

FortheFunofitFarm

Dec. 20, 2007, 02:53 PM

Auventera Two

Dec. 20, 2007, 02:59 PM

A2 - is your mare an ex-racer? Sorry, I can't remember but if memory serves me correctly (which is often not the case lately :lol:) I thought she was an Arabian. The picture you posted was before the crenna disappeared, correct? Bummer about the x-rays. I've seen ski-tipping with the notch as well on horses with crenna's.

No, the horse is a QH/TB, but never raced. Well, barrel raced but that doesn't count.... I do have an Arabian also, but that's a different horse. I've got 3 total. (2 too many! :lol:)

*I* don't think there is a correlation to NB or race horses in general. There is a common denominator though somewhere and it is interesting discussion. I'd love to learn what it is.

Yup, I hear ya! It's fascinating. And you're right, there's got to be some common denominator, but what exactly?

Rick Burten

Dec. 20, 2007, 03:17 PM

Rick, can you please expound and go a little more into location of the that you mentioned? I'd like to look for it on my next one.
On the inside of the dorsal wall of the hoof capsule from coronary level to ground level in line with the crenna in p3. If I knew how to use the computer to draw pictures, it would sure help a lot. :)
Have yet to see it on a lighter horse, smaller or even what I would call average sized feet.
I've seen it in both light horses and ponies, especially the larger ponies. I don't however, see a lot of it.

Rick Burten

Dec. 20, 2007, 03:23 PM

In a nutshell could someone explain what the NB shoe is supposed to do?
First, you have to understand that its not just about the shoe as so many incorrectly think, its about the entire protocol starting with the trim, including mapping out the feet, trimming accordingly, and then when shoes, NB or otherwise, are employed, correctly placing them so that there is correct location of breakover at the toe region, proper heel support and a "balanced frame" around the coffin bone "picture".
I, too, have read various places where that shoe has caused problems.
I can just about guarantee that any time someone says the shoe has caused problems its because the person applying the shoe did not understand and correctly apply the full protocol. IOW, it is not an appliance error/problem, it is an installer error/problem.

LMH

Dec. 20, 2007, 03:33 PM

FortheFunofitFarm

Dec. 20, 2007, 03:39 PM

Auventera Two

Dec. 20, 2007, 03:58 PM

My response was crabby? No need to get snippy when I was NOT being crabby.

I am actually very interested in this topic...posted about it after KC's presentation and did not get much feedback at the time.

I was asking trying to get the info correct in my head so I could participate in the discussion as well-that is why I asked about race horses vs. NB shod horses.

And you are correct is it imbalance in either direction that can cause the Black Hole.

Honestly I used to really enjoy hoof discussions on this forum...no they are just not much fun anymore.

Carry on.

Well, I apologize then. It seemed like a crabby remark to me, especially after I posted Libbey's pics back in March with NB shoes on, and you asked if I was aware of KC's theory about NB shoes and the higher rate of HKH. So now you're saying your horse wore NB for "YEARS" and no HKH. That's good that one didn't develop, but I took your comment to mean that since your horse didn't have it, obviously there is no link. Who knows if there's a link? I sure don't. It's a fascinating topic though. In any case, I obviously misunderstood the intent of your posting.

Auventera Two

Dec. 20, 2007, 04:03 PM

Interesting that she never raced, A2 - and boy do I know what you mean by 2 too many! :lol:

Interesting on multiple levels that TB race horses are what cadavers are most available to the school and what are most frequently used. Also interesting that KC has associated the HKH lesions with NB and extreme toe rockers if that is what he presented. I wasn't there though....

Morbid curiosity...but - Just HOW do you make a correlation like that? I mean, is there a call out to every protein plant and slaughter house for NB shod feet and extreme rockered toes to be shipped to KC? How could you know how long the foot had been shod with NB or even the "extreme rocker" to make the claim that there even is a correlation? Just trying to think it through is all......not picking on him. Just want to learn....

The area where they live is heavy with race horses, so I think it's just by default that the more horses that race, the more that break down, and the more end up at the plant. I'm sure if he lived somewhere else, the processing plants would be full of a different type. Where I live, it's a big portion of drafts and standardbreds because this is Amish territory. (yes, I've called the plant and talked to them about it, but haven't visited to pick up legs yet.)

And to be fair to him and his theory, I honestly don't know how he made the correlation with NB shoes and the black hole. I don't have enough info on it to speak with any sort of depth or intelligence. :lol: Maybe Rick can since he was at the session?

Huntertwo

Dec. 20, 2007, 04:16 PM

Be Warned..this poster has been banned from other boards and is a troll.

And a bad speller..

jack mac

Dec. 20, 2007, 04:42 PM

LMH

Dec. 20, 2007, 04:48 PM

That actually IS my point...I wish there was more information-yes when I initially read KC's papers it was a huge A-HA.

And yes Polo wore NB's with no HKH.

So there is some confusion in my mind.

Combine that with many other horses in NBs and no HKH, others never in NBs with HKH...some that seem never to get better...and others like my Milo-never shod or trimmed to NB standards, two wicked Black Holes (confirmed on x-rays) now gone...and they aren't supposed to be gone. Well gone from the outside but I have not taken current x-rays to see about the lesions.

So it just seems all very confusing.

FortheFunofitFarm

Dec. 20, 2007, 05:28 PM

Darn, my last post was eaten.

Rick, Thank you very much :yes:

I did take some, albeit poor quality, photos of the last one. It took 4 people to get this hoof wall off and it tore in the process. Anyway, the area of the crenna was more tightly attached than the rest of the wall which kind of goes back to the lock and key thing Rick mentioned. I can vaguely make out what may be a ridge on the second photo but in all honesty, I thought I remember more of an indentation on the dorsal hoof wall. http://pets.webshots.com/album/561834115EqNHaS

I have post mortem x-rays of these feet as well.

I have the mate still in the freezer with a crenna also and I will get better pics when I open it and pay more attention ;)

Interesting you have seen them on smaller horses. Just goes to show that I need to see more :)

Ever seen them on hinds??

FortheFunofitFarm

Dec. 20, 2007, 05:33 PM

Jack mac - So if your argument is that increased pressure creates increased bone mass, then I would have to disagree, as I don't know of this ever being the case. But by all means, correct me if I'm wrong! I'm just trying to learn too.

Isn't that exactly what happens after a foal is born? Bone is layed down according to pressure? The coffin bone is not fully formed or shaped at birth. Wouldn't that be a case of pressure causing increased mass?

I'm not sure who you were addressing with this post though :confused:

I'm confused.

jack mac

Dec. 20, 2007, 06:35 PM

what one has two understand is the hoof although functions as a unit it is made up of types of tissues that break down & grow on separate planes, meaning they do not generate them self all together in one steady growth rate, growth rates are juggled to keep synchronization more horn less sole new frog retained old frog exserta, it is this ability to regulate & balance theses growth rates that is the hoofs salvation but also its demise when it comes to ignorance of this fact ,what makes a good farrier from a bad farrier is one that can read the growth patterns & see & only adjust what needs to be, to keep the growth patterns synchronized, protocols like NB BF follow an in trenched dogma that ignores theses growth pattens with all the trappings of consenquence that goes with it,

Rick Burten

Dec. 20, 2007, 07:12 PM

Ever seen them on hinds??
Hmmm, now that you mention it, maybe once or twice. Which is interesting too because a lot of horses get shod with a set back/blunt/square toe/Natural Balance shoe. Perhaps Vicky would querry KC about that and report back what he has to say.

Rick Burten

Dec. 20, 2007, 07:14 PM

, the opposite occurs once the periosteum hardens or calcifies
Is there any research or studies that show the periosteum of the coffin bone hardening or calcifying? If so, please direct me to them so I can do some studying.

Rick Burten

Dec. 20, 2007, 07:25 PM

what makes a good farrier from a bad farrier is one that can read the growth patterns & see & only adjust what needs to be, to keep the growth patterns synchronized,
Please direct me to the treatsies that describe and explain this synchronis.
protocols like NB BF follow an in trenched dogma that ignores theses growth pattens with all the trappings of consenquence that goes with it,
Balderdash. That is nothing but rhetoric and hyperbole without form or substance.

Other than those of the BUA mindset, what entrenched dogma do those who follow the concept of "If they need shoes, shoe 'em, if they don't, don't" adhere to?

What is the entrenched dogma of the Natural Balance Protocols. Be very specific here and cite chapter and verse.

Would you say/agree that those who follow the "perimeter fit at all costs" protocol are following a old entrenched dogma?

Would you agree that those who believe that frog contact with the ground is unnecessary are following an entrenched dogma?

What is your personal trimming and shoeing paradigm? By what means, scientific or otherwise, did you arrive at said paradigm?

Appassionato

Dec. 20, 2007, 08:25 PM

"Ski tips" are not remineralization, rather they are the visible effects of bone remodeling.
There is also no evidence that if the pedal bone demineralizes and there is bone loss(which there always, by definition, is)that the periosteum remains intact. Quite the contrary actually.

Just asking, not arguing (I think you know that about me), the remodeling is done via demineralization and remineralization, no? Please explain?

My thoughts were that the periosteum *might* have been divided at the tip of the P3 over time, thus the ski tip. Please correct this mechanism, I'm NOT here to toot false science. ;)

Osteophyte formation is some different than building bigger bone, chips or otherwise. Too often, when there is a fracture(s) of the pedal bone, the healing that rejoins the two(or more) sides of the fracture, is accomplished via the formation of fibro-cartilage(scar) tissue rather than true ossification of the fracture. If the fracture extends into the joint, then we often do see ossification occurring. In that instance, is is ossification due to osteophytes and is most generally referred to as Low Ringbone. Note: low ringbone has other causes not related to articular fractures of p3.)

I was thinking along my own horse's x-rays. At first when we took D/V shots almost a year later, the first thing I did was walk out of the barn, to collect my thoughts. Bo "grew" bigger bone chips. But he didn't, I was told. That was just a comparison of the former obstruction from inflammation. Once the inflammation was greatly reduced, we saw more bone. Again, please correct if I am wrong. I promise I won't get offended. I seek truth. Only truth wil set Bo free, regardless what I might think of it. :winkgrin:

Appassionato

Dec. 20, 2007, 08:35 PM

*I* don't think there is a correlation to NB or race horses in general. There is a common denominator though somewhere and it is interesting discussion. I'd love to learn what it is.

Me personally, I think the correlation is the level of work introduced verses the size horse we're breeding nowadays. Anyone is welcome to say whatever they want, but a 4 year old ain't the same 4 year olds we bred in the past.

ALL TB racing breeders feel free to start jumping on me. Just because I love the training, it doesn't mean I love the fact we bred the foot clean off the horse.

matryoshka

Dec. 20, 2007, 10:01 PM

I'm confused about how a rockered toe causes more pressure? It seems to me that shorter toes cause less pressure rather than more.

More questions: Do horses with the lesions exhibit any lameness? Why is it a problem? Do they cause cracking at the toe?

It also seems to me that NB shoeing would decrease pressure on the toes rather than increase it. The shoes are seated out so they don't cause sole pressure, aren't they? Otherwise, the horses would be sore.

I don't think I've encountered the problem that KC is talking about. Either that, or I have and did not recognize it. I've seen these black spots at the toe, but they usually go away in a few months. I guess I usually assume that this is seedy toe rather than a growth, especially since it mostly goes away.

IOW, I'm totally ignorant on this particular topic, so I'll be one of the people asking questions. Perhaps I'm not even understanding the discussion properly. :no: That is not a good feeling.

Appassionato

Dec. 20, 2007, 10:07 PM

I'm confused about how a rockered toe causes more pressure? It seems to me that shorter toes cause less pressure rather than more.

Poor exmaple, but remember Bo went to Jaye in NB Steels....almost 3 sizes too small. My only point is that the NB shoe is as good as it is applied. And even then, Bo went home from Jaye's in Kerkhearts that first shoeing. :winkgrin:

More questions: Do horses with the lesions exhibit any lameness? Why is it a problem? Do they cause cracking at the toe?

It also seems to me that NB shoeing would decrease pressure on the toes rather than increase it. The shoes are seated out so they don't cause sole pressure, aren't they? Otherwise, the horses would be sore.

I don't think I've encountered the problem that KC is talking about. Either that, or I have and did not recognize it. I've seen these black spots at the toe, but they usually go away in a few months. I guess I usually assume that this is seedy toe rather than a growth, especially since it mostly goes away.

IOW, I'm totally ignorant on this particular topic, so I'll be one of the people asking questions. Perhaps I'm not even understanding the discussion properly. :no: That is not a good feeling.

I can see how the shoes *can* be seated out, if they aren't already...but in any case, are you considering my PM? Ask me more fopr details via PM or email.

But great questions on shoeing overall! I think this IS helpful to horse owners!

matryoshka

Dec. 20, 2007, 10:10 PM

If Jack Mac's claim in his original post is accurate, then the "barefoot movement" will be self limiting, because all the horses will go lame in about 2 years. :D

Any protocol that makes a horse more sore rather than less so over time needs to be questioned and examined. I agree with Rick in that many times, it isn't the protocol that is at fault, but rather the application of it. We can't use a cookie-cutter approach to horses, whether it is training, trimming, or shoeing. I'm guessing that the gurus themselves do exemplary work--it's when others (including myself) apply their theories incorrectly that horses suffer.

Appassionato

Dec. 20, 2007, 10:21 PM

If Jack Mac's claim in his original post is accurate, then the "barefoot movement" will be self limiting, because all the horses will go lame in about 2 years. :D

I've admitted it before, and will again: agreed!

Any protocol that makes a horse more sore rather than less so over time needs to be questioned and examined. I agree with Rick in that many times, it isn't the protocol that is at fault, but rather the application of it. We can't use a cookie-cutter approach to horses, whether it is training, trimming, or shoeing. I'm guessing that the gurus themselves do exemplary work--it's when others (including myself) apply their theories incorrectly that horses suffer.

"Cookie-cutter" is right: we can't make every horse fit the same mold, whether it be barefoot trim ideals or shoeing protocols. :yes: That's something I definately believe in. It's why we should ALL be educated in more than one way of doing things with hooves. :winkgrin:

FortheFunofitFarm

Dec. 20, 2007, 10:32 PM

Pam, if you are interested, let me know and we could get together to dissect my other foot that has a crenna/HKH/lesion at the toe. Just so you can see it.

matryoshka

Dec. 20, 2007, 10:37 PM

That would be great!

Appassionato

Dec. 20, 2007, 10:47 PM

Pam, if you are interested, let me know and we could get together to dissect my other foot that has a crenna/HKH/lesion at the toe. Just so you can see it.

Please take pics. Everyone can learn and ask questions. Maybe folks here can advise some different shots they'd like taken...?

FortheFunofitFarm

Dec. 20, 2007, 10:57 PM

Appassionato

Dec. 20, 2007, 11:28 PM

I am free after X-mas through New Years, except for the 27th. Bring beer or red wine :lol::lol:. Seriously, I need to get it done.... It's no rush though. Any weekend is fine if I know in advance.

Will take lots of pics :yes: Just pray that Santa shows up with a better camera :lol:

If I could travel that far, I'd be there! but I don't have that kind of cash. Especially since my oldie that I'm trying to save is having issues.

I'll be there in spirit???

jack mac

Dec. 20, 2007, 11:38 PM

Please direct me to the treatsies that describe and explain this synchronis.

Balderdash. That is nothing but rhetoric and hyperbole without form or substance.

Other than those of the BUA mindset, what entrenched dogma do those who follow the concept of "If they need shoes, shoe 'em, if they don't, don't" adhere to?

What is the entrenched dogma of the Natural Balance Protocols. Be very specific here and cite chapter and verse.

Would you say/agree that those who follow the "perimeter fit at all costs" protocol are following a old entrenched dogma?

Would you agree that those who believe that frog contact with the ground is unnecessary are following an entrenched dogma?

What is your personal trimming and shoeing paradigm? By what means, scientific or otherwise, did you arrive at said paradigm?The fact that your NB shoe dose not even mimic the hoof even remotely after it has sustaining the wear and tear it has incurred in its natural state that you are so proudly touting to be your purpose for butchering hooves, dictates NB is contemptible uncalibrated nonsense, show me the wild mustang or brumby hoofs that resemble you NB shoe shape ? any one who has received the littlest of anatomy teaching's on the limbs of a horse would be able to deduce from the joints of those limbs that break over is not central but to the lateral side of the toe, with that in mind it would not take two much intelligence to figure out it wont & doesnt wear a square toe, so show me the true representation of biology in the horse hooves that confirms your NB theory :mad:

Appassionato

Dec. 20, 2007, 11:57 PM

jack mac

Dec. 21, 2007, 12:19 AM

[RE: Natural Balance]

Rick - what's your opinion on the increased number of hyper keratinized horn lesions at the toe on NB shod horses, or those barefoot with extreme "toe rockers." Were you at the Hoof Care Summit when KC presented this paper in the general session? I'm not sure what year that would have been.

I admit I know very very little about it. Have read a bit online, and listened to his presentation, but that's about it. It's something I have a vested interest in though for easons explained later.

I've seen some of them in cadavers. Something is causing it, and it is apparently being associated with short, squared toes concentrating too much pressure near the tip of P3. Unlike a keratoma, which isn't always located at toe, the KHK is always found at the toe. Also, there is something else about the histology (correct term??) of this lesion versus a keratoma that makes it not a "true" keratoma. But I can't remember that info.

I have seen this on two live horses. One is my friend's trail horse who has extremely short, rather upright, and boxy, square toed feet. They are quite huge on her feet. Her farrier was treating it as white line disease for years and has never made any progress. The mare now has the characteristic "conical rise in the sole" just behind the visible spot on the sole/white line. There is no lameness, but there has been no improvement over the last 5-7 years or so.

The other was on my own QH. She had terrible hoof form for years, and went through a stint of NB shoeing, followed by St. Croix eventer shoes with the toe rather signifigantly "brought back" to the shoe, which was set back.

She developed the very distinct black notch at the junction of sole to white line. At the time I didn't know what it was, and my farrier didn't say much either. When I started trimming her myself, I was a bit afraid to bring the toes back and dramatically as my farrier had been, so out of default, the toes were allowed to get longer than ideal. But - the abnormality at both toes disapeared, which would be consistent with the research the concentrated pressure from a very short toe and/or rocker is what initiates the growth. Her toes are now back appropriately, but not too short. The spots have not returned. I believe KC said it's been noted that the lesions can improve or appear to disapear all together, but I can't recall what he said about how completely they can resolve. You can see these lesions on xray if the machine is set at a specific KV, and taken from a very specific angle, which also, I can't recall right now. lol. That's why I take notes - but don't have them with me.

It's a very interesting topic to me, as it's so new, and I really don't know much about it at all. Apparently this is what a lot of people refer to as "seedy toe" but as obvious in cadaver disection, there is an actual GROWTH inside the capsule, unlike true seedy toe, which is an infection.

Here are some photos. First one is a cadaver capsule pic I took out in Idaho. 2nd pic is my own mare, and I've marked the spot.

And please for the love of pete - no attacks on me, or KC. Just give your opinions on this topic. Thank you. causes, any exceeding of the white line literally or transfer of prolonged pressure, etc the clip on a shoe was let back to far or created pressure, in a bare hoof its usually caused by grave impacting in the white line again pressure or penetration, excessively dumping the toe which precedes past the white line or causes applied pressure & some are caused by vets draining abscess at the toe in stead of paring further back away from the white line to drain :) ps a horse will only develop true seedy toe if it has founded

Appassionato

Dec. 21, 2007, 12:26 AM

causes, any exceeding of the white line literally or transfer of prolonged pressure, etc the clip on a shoe was let back to far or created pressure

Please continue on this? Specifically how a clip on a shoe could get the hoof to this point?

jack mac

Dec. 21, 2007, 12:49 AM

After you show us the bilogy of the hoof as you've depicted (solar corium calcufying, etc.)?

In any case, the part in red, I believe it had already been discussed on horseshoes. I'm sure Patty Stiller would be glad to show you, or others... and while *I* shouldn't have to add this, not every horse breaks over laterally...AHEM, as the "barefoot authority", I should also note that I've said nothing of the horses' movement. :winkgrin:she did they resembled nothing like a NB shoe just like all the brumby iv caught, the fact is they were no different than any horses feet in shape ,the thread was then closed not long after by baron, i cant check that fully to sure as I'm still banned & i cant see myself let back on there now but I'm pretty sure that was the thread "O" & there was the apparent fire gene had were all most all of those photos in that study were lost according to paddy :lol: ;) ps ever seen a bone that has sustained an impact but not quite broken layman's term bruised bone it shows up gray - black on a X ray seen that before no?, take a look at some X rays of the pedal bone of a horse Shod NB over a period , now you know what your looking for you will find your proof :)

jack mac

Dec. 21, 2007, 12:54 AM

Appassionato

Dec. 21, 2007, 12:54 AM

she did they resembled nothing like a NB shoe just like all the brumby iv caught, the fact is they were no different than any horses feet in shape ,the thread was then closed not long after by baron, i cant check that fully to sure as I'm still banned & i cant see myself let back on there now but I'm pretty sure that was the thread "O" & there was the apparent fire gene had were all most all of those photos in that study were lost according to paddy :lol: ;)

Not aware of such, but I'll be on the lookout for it.

bone that has sustained an impact but not quite broken layman's term bruised bone it shows up gray - black on a X ray seen that before no?, take a look at some X rays of the pedal bone of a horse Shod NB over a period , now you know what your looking for you will find your proof :)

Are you seriously asking *ME* this question???

Appassionato

Dec. 21, 2007, 01:04 AM

I* shouldn't have to add this, not every horse breaks over laterally...AHEM, as the "barefoot authority", I should also note that I've said nothing of the horses' movementThen your not trimming some of your horse hooves right ;):)

I'm not trimming my own horses, remember? DOH! :lol: You asked me to say hello to Jaye, remember???? You called me his "bare foot trimming bud" at horseshoes...I'm beginnig to think you aren't deaf, but daft instead. In that my horse is SHOD and all...but you changed sails and never responded to that except aplogies, what were you afraid of? Jaye's HALF a world away...and a great guy to boot...???

jack mac

Dec. 21, 2007, 02:05 AM

I'm not trimming my own horses, remember? DOH! :lol: You asked me to say hello to Jaye, remember???? You called me his "bare foot trimming bud" at horseshoes...I'm beginnig to think you aren't deaf, but daft instead. In that my horse is SHOD and all...but you changed sails and never responded to that except aplogies, what were you afraid of? Jaye's HALF a world away...and a great guy to boot...???Not afraid of anything i think his a pretty good farrier, if only there was more like Jaye id have nothing type about :)

jack mac

Dec. 21, 2007, 02:24 AM

Are you seriously asking *ME* this question???[/QUOTE]No just telling you were to find the proof you need & any one ease that believes sitting a shoe over the sole & under the pedal bone doesn't have consequent & is a good thing, & commonsense might be a rare commodity theses days PS that statement was not directed at you its just a generalization so please dont take offence :)

Auventera Two

Dec. 21, 2007, 09:02 AM

So if your argument is that increased pressure creates increased bone mass, then I would have to disagree, as I don't know of this ever being the case. But by all means, correct me if I'm wrong! I'm just trying to learn too.

You have miss under stood , the opposite occurs once the periosteum hardens or calcifies the normal circulation is disrupted in the bone interference with the mineralization processes to maintain size and healthy bone tissue structure takes place & the bone starts to slowly deteriorate :)

There has to be a balance between too little pressure, and too much pressure. "Correct" pressure creates correct bone growth and density. This is why it's important for foals and young horses to get plenty of turnout where they can move, run, and develop proper bone mass.

Wolf's Law

:)

Auventera Two

Dec. 21, 2007, 09:04 AM

Hmmm, now that you mention it, maybe once or twice. Which is interesting too because a lot of horses get shod with a set back/blunt/square toe/Natural Balance shoe. Perhaps Vicky would querry KC about that and report back what he has to say.

Yes, one of the most prominent cases he ever dealt with was on a very expensive imported upper level dressage horse who had them in the hind feet. The horse was obviously sore and "hopping" behind at the canter. I can't remember what the ultimate turnout of that case was, but I do remember him saying the horse improved signifigantly with correct trimming.

Auventera Two

Dec. 21, 2007, 09:17 AM

I was thinking along my own horse's x-rays. At first when we took D/V shots almost a year later, the first thing I did was walk out of the barn, to collect my thoughts. Bo "grew" bigger bone chips. But he didn't, I was told. That was just a comparison of the former obstruction from inflammation. Once the inflammation was greatly reduced, we saw more bone. Again, please correct if I am wrong. I promise I won't get offended. I seek truth. Only truth wil set Bo free, regardless what I might think of it. :winkgrin:

When I xrayed the canker cadaver that MayS sent to me, there was no discernable P3 visible on the film. When I cut into the capsule, there was a fairly normal P3. It was not visible due to the amount of fluid, inflammation, and infection inside the hoof capsule.

Rick Burten

Dec. 21, 2007, 09:33 AM

When I xrayed the canker cadaver that MayS sent to me, there was no discernable P3 visible on the film. When I cut into the capsule, there was a fairly normal P3. It was not visible due to the amount of fluid, inflammation, and infection inside the hoof capsule.
That is interesting. Perhaps you needed a stronger x-ray beam than is usual?

Rick Burten

Dec. 21, 2007, 09:45 AM

Just asking, not arguing (I think you know that about me), the remodeling is done via demineralization and remineralization, no? Please explain?
In the instance of the formation of a ski tip at the dorsal leading edge of p3, rather than the bone demineralizing or remineralizing, it remodels due to the excessive forces placed on it from below. In those instances where the remodeling includes bone loss, then it is my understanding that this is a demineralization process. In the instance of pedal osteitis, the inflammation causes demineralization and subsequent bone loss, usually around the entire periphery of the distal leading edge of p3. There is no evidence, radiographic, postmortem, or otherwise, that once the initiating cause(s) of the PO have been remediated, that there is any regeneration/remineralization of the edge of p3 that has been lost.
My thoughts were that the periosteum *might* have been divided at the tip of the P3 over time, thus the ski tip. Please correct this mechanism, I'm NOT here to toot false science. ;)
I'm not sure how your theory would work. My understanding is that after the remodeling has occured, upon dissection, the periosteum is still intact.
I was thinking along my own horse's x-rays. At first when we took D/V shots almost a year later,.........
I am having trouble visualing this so I apologize, but I don't have an answer for you.

Rick Burten

Dec. 21, 2007, 09:51 AM

ps ever seen a bone that has sustained an impact but not quite broken layman's term bruised bone it shows up gray - black on a X ray seen that before no?,
Only seen it when there is necrosis, not just bruising.
take a look at some X rays of the pedal bone of a horse Shod NB over a period , now you know what your looking for you will find your proof :)
Poppycock! I have seen hundreds of radiographs of the sort you describe and only when the shoe has been mis-applied, have I ever seen anything that even remotely resembles what you claim. And, I can say the same thing about radiographs of horse's that were shod with other kinds of shoes too. By the way, how many radiographs of the sort you describe, have you actually seen? Why not get copies of some of them and post them here for all to see? You want a "scientific" discussion, so lets have at it.

Rick Burten

Dec. 21, 2007, 09:58 AM

any one ease that believes sitting a shoe over the sole & under the pedal bone doesn't have consequent & is a good thing, & commonsense might be a rare commodity theses days
Here's a news flash for you Jack. The Natural Balance protocols do not(exceptions follow) place the shoe under the pedal bone.

The exceptions are that breakover may be set back under p3 in certain very specific instances, mostly involving advanced cases of founder. But lets understand something here. That protocol(setting shoes way under to the point of being under p3) is not unique to Natural Balance. Such noted veterinarians as Dr. Ric Redden and Dr. Scott Morrison, et al, routinely advocate and practice this approach in some very specific instances. And neither one of them uses Natural Balance shoes.

Rick Burten

Dec. 21, 2007, 09:59 AM

Not afraid of anything i think his a pretty good farrier, if only there was more like Jaye id have nothing type about :)
News Flash: You have nothing to type about now.

Rick Burten

Dec. 21, 2007, 10:02 AM

causes, .... in a bare hoof its usually caused by grave impacting in the white line again pressure or penetration,
That being the case, why do we not see this condition in every horse that has a confirmed case of "gravel" with subsequent venting at the coronary level?
ps a horse will only develop true seedy toe if it has founded
Please define "True seedy toe". How does it differ from "False seedy toe"? Is White Line Disease the same as "True seedy toe? If not, why not? Please be specific.

Rick Burten

Dec. 21, 2007, 10:31 AM

The fact that your NB shoe dose not even mimic the hoof even remotely after it has sustaining the wear and tear it has incurred in its natural state that you are so proudly touting to be your purpose for butchering hooves, dictates NB is contemptible uncalibrated nonsense,
OK, lets go with your erroneous assumption for a moment. Tell me how a blunt toe set back shoe, a square toed shoe, a shoe with clips, trailers, extensions, bars of any construction, swelled heels, etc. ad naseum, mimics the hoof as you describe. And since they don't, according you your contention, everyone practicing those procedures, is butchering hooves and dictates that said protocols are contemptible uncalibrated nonsense.
Have you even bothered to investigate NB concepts and protocols. If not, you might want to start here:

http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/education/articles/handouts/principles-practice-nb.html

Then you might want to continue on and peruse:

http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/education/articles/handouts/hoof-balance-made-easy.html

Continuing on and before you start with ranting and raving, you might want to look at:

http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/miscfiles/NBSGuide-Al-1pg.pdf

and

http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/miscfiles/NBSGuide-St-1pg.pdf

that break over is not central but to the lateral side of the toe,
It is routinely found/accepted that indeed most(but not all) horses will break over slightly lateral to the mid-line of the limb/hoof.
with that in mind it would not take two much intelligence to figure out it wont & doesnt wear a square toe,
Demonstrably, some horses end up with a toe that is more squarish in appearance than round. That aside, show me where an NB front pattern shoe has a square toe, either right out of the box, or after farrier modification through forging or other means. And, since the outside edge/rim of the NB shoe is rolled from quarter to quarter, the horse's ability to breakover wherever it is most comfortable, is enhanced. So, rather than obstructing/interfering with the horse's movement, the shoes, when correctly applied, particularly with regard to the correct trim, enable the horse rather than disable the horse.
so show me the true representation of biology in the horse hooves that confirms your NB theory :mad:
Show me where it does not. And while you are about it, show me where your vision of farriery, confirms the true representation of biology in the horse's hooves. By the way, what exactly is your vision/understanding of farriery with regard to trimming and shoeing protocols. Please post some examples of this vision, as performed, personally, by you.

By the way Jack, I have already asked these questions and more, reference , Post #89 and you have yet to address/answer even one of these question.

To save you the trouble of having to go back and find that post, I copy it here, below, for you. Further, I have added a number to each question so that you can respond to each, "by the number"

Originally Posted by hoofrx1

1. Please direct me to the treatsies that describe and explain this synchronis.

2. Other than those of the BUA mindset, what entrenched dogma do those who follow the concept of "If they need shoes, shoe 'em, if they don't, don't" adhere to?

3. What is the entrenched dogma of the Natural Balance Protocols. Be very specific here and cite chapter and verse.

4. Would you say/agree that those who follow the "perimeter fit at all costs" protocol are following a old entrenched dogma?

5. Would you agree that those who believe that frog contact with the ground is unnecessary are following an entrenched dogma?

6. What is your personal trimming and shoeing paradigm? By what means, scientific or otherwise, did you arrive at said paradigm?

jack mac

Dec. 21, 2007, 02:47 PM

Only seen it when there is necrosis, not just bruising.

Poppycock! I have seen hundreds of radiographs of the sort you describe and only when the shoe has been mis-applied, have I ever seen anything that even remotely resembles what you claim. And, I can say the same thing about radiographs of horse's that were shod with other kinds of shoes too. By the way, how many radiographs of the sort you describe, have you actually seen? Why not get copies of some of them and post them here for all to see? You want a "scientific" discussion, so lets have at it.You couldn't even tell the differences between a man made club & natural occuring one when it presented its self right in front of your eyes on the farriers forum, i had to point it out to you & you still chose to dispute it & tried hammer & tongs to discredit me, thankfully to no avail & others got the benefit including your self of my knowledge on how to tell the difference, you learnt how to pick the difference at a glance from me, i learnt from you, you didnt have a trained eye to pick the difference , so what makes you think id have any confidence in you even remotely knowing in the slightest on how to read & interpret an Xray :D Ps having trouble finding thoses photos are you Rick

Rick Burten

Dec. 21, 2007, 03:03 PM

You couldn't even tell the differences between a man made club & natural occuring one when it presented its self right in front of your eyes on the farriers forum, i had to point it out to you & you still chose to dispute it & tried hammer & tongs to discredit me
Au contraire'. You did quite an admirable job of that all by yourself. Just as you continue to do here and now. And, for the record, your alleged theory of natural vs man made club feet doesn't begin to meet the standard for diagnosis. Nor were you willing or able to provide any reference/research cites to substantiate your statement. Care to do so now?
thankfully to no avail & others got the benefit including your self of my knowledge on how to tell the difference,
A llogical fallacy ie: your statement makes a conclusion based on facts not in evidence.
you learnt how to pick the difference at a glance from me,
No, I did not. Nor did anyone else. Nor did anyone else support your claims/position. HMMMM
i learnt from you, you didnt have a trained eye to pick the difference ,
How did you do that pray tell? Couldn't have been based on any intellectual discussion we had because we had none.
so what makes you think id have any confidence in you even remotely knowing in the slightest on how to read & interpret an Xray
I know this may come as a suprise to you, but I couldn't care less if you have any confidence in me or my abilities. You see, its a case of "Mind over Matter" ie: I don't mind, because you don't matter.
Ps having trouble finding thoses photos are you Rick
Nah, its not worth the bother . You already have sufficient information at your disposal to carry on a legitimate discussion. That you can't or won't is a problem for you to fix.

Now, turnabout being fair play, when are you going to answer those relatively uncomplicated questions I asked you. And, if you won't answer them for me, how about answering them for the others on this forum who await with baited breath the pearls of wisdom that will cascade from your keyboard.

jack mac

Dec. 21, 2007, 03:28 PM

Adams' Lameness in Horses By O. R. Adams, Ted S. Stashak, Stashak. Ted S.google it page 8 its not the greatest text but it will do to give you a better under standing of the relation ship between the distal phalanx periosteum solar corium .:)

Rick Burten

Dec. 21, 2007, 03:38 PM

Got the book right here in front of me(Fifth Edition, ie: most recent/current). So what's your point. there is nothing there about either the periosteum or the coronary corium calcifying. Not there, nor elsewhere in the book.

jack mac

Dec. 21, 2007, 03:43 PM

Correct.

Absent one luminary(who has a presence on these forums), to my knowledge, neither has anyone else.

"Ski tips" are not remineralization, rather they are the visible effects of bone remodeling.
There is also no evidence that if the pedal bone demineralizes and there is bone loss(which there always, by definition, is)that the periosteum remains intact. Quite the contrary actually.

Osteophyte formation is some different than building bigger bone, chips or otherwise. Too often, when there is a fracture(s) of the pedal bone, the healing that rejoins the two(or more) sides of the fracture, is accomplished via the formation of fibro-cartilage(scar) tissue rather than true ossification of the fracture. If the fracture extends into the joint, then we often do see ossification occurring. In that instance, is is ossification due to osteophytes and is most generally referred to as Low Ringbone. Note: low ringbone has other causes not related to articular fractures of p3.)you need to learn a little more about molecular cellular structure as well as connective tissues Rick :)