Driving Breed Choices-Long

[goodhors]

If you haven't already read the original posting related to CDE and Gaited horses, go down further. I started and ImaDriver responded.

I want to make clear, my remarks are all focused on DRIVING CDE, and DRIVEN DRESSAGE. More pointed at our driving Multiples. When choosing our horses, way, way back, we talked to Multiples Drivers who were experienced in years of driving horses, had successes in Competitions. Were successful at the highest possible levels, WORLD CLASS competitors in the USA and Europe. All had driven a multitude of horses over the years, tried many breeds, could be driving any breed they chose to use. All were REALLY expert in Dressage, consider it the basic for building on, to make the best CDE horse. All planned to drive Advanced with these horses.

They ALL SAID, "Standardbreds don't make it at the highest levels". They said the horse is not built to do the work needed. It actually got to be funny, how exactly the same words came out of all these different folks mouths. From one end of the country to the other, other countries, agreement on Standardbreds, racing Trotters not being able to do the best Dressage needed for winning. Other countries experts pointing at their local speedy Trotters as not being bendable as needed for Dressage. Winning Trotters have all got that same body style, long and lean, straight moving. Hungary has good local Trotters, yet they are not used in CDE or only as partbred crosses to get the bending ability. One German had been long-listed as a younger man, on the German National Dressage Team in ridden Dressage. He CERTAINLY knows how to get things out of a horse, including bending. He is one of the most condemning of Standardbreds, says they have a fencepost for a spine, just can't give you a bend. These folks have driven Morgans, all the WBs, Appy, Arab, Fjord, Lippizans, Hackney, Gelderlanders and other mixed breeds, done well with them. They learned what body is needed to win CDE.

In my experience, with a fair number of horses, you can take any of them and work VERY HARD to CHANGE them into what you want. They are not suitable for the job you need done when you start. Spend hours and years, still have the $800 horse you started with. May have $2500 or more of training in it, years of work, but won't ever sell for more than $800. You can't EVER turn a pig's ear into a silk purse, you will just have a really crabby pig's ear. Both of you try, both of you are not happy with the results or effort needed to SORTA get there. Love them all you want, horse is still NOT CAPABLE of doing that job you want. Job can be driving or any other horse discipline.

Cute looks, Baby-faced, Tiny heads, TB looks, really DO NOT MATTER TO ME when choosing a horse. Head and looks are the LAST place I look on the horse I may purchase. I start at the ground, with hooves, legs. If suitable, we move up to body, is it cabable of doing what I want? Every breed has the "average" breed body style, with some very untypical members, whom I will call freaks because they are not "Breed Normal". Often these freaks CAN do things not typical for this breed. Unfairly used as the "example" of breed diversity. Such freaks COULD NOT place in their own breed shows, wrong style horse.

Standardbred norm is long and lean, they go the very fastest. Ribs sticking out interfere with how the stifle passes the body, slows them down. Real Breeders DO NOT breed losers, they sell or give them away. If horse can't make time on the track, earn money, he goes on elsewhwere. Foals have to show promise of speed, not just a bloodline, to be kept until they can race. Those are the cold, hard facts of racing.

You can shop at rescues if you like. Many folks do, find horses they like and get along with. There are a lot of horses left over from both racing industries. I don't look for my horses there. I don't want to redo, make over, someone else's training. I don't want these breed styles because they are physically unable to do what I want from them without a lot of grief for me and them.

I shop for a body style horse who is EASILY CAPABLE of doing the work I want done. I expect to have horse compete at high levels. I expect horse to be as GOOD or better, than the better ridden Dressage horses, not the lowest level competitors. His body style should make any Dressage EASY for him to do, parts fall into place when collected or extended. This is not hard work for him, it all comes together smoothly as his training progresses. He says, "Ok, got that. What next?" He enjoys his jobs.

There is not WORK on my part in training him. I am not forcing him to do things that are difficult, like bending, collection, suspension. Horse poorly built may be able to do parts of that in play, but it is difficult for him to sustain form over time needed in competitions. You can love him, doesn't matter because love STILL does not aid him in bending or collection. I can LOVE a Draft cross, that will not make him recover faster after the Marathon phase, give him more manuverability in Hazards. He is what he is made. You can't CHANGE HIS BODY!! Deluding yourself is silly, sure is a waste of your training time trying to re-make him into something he is not. Pushing can hurt him, body won't hold up to forced frame in work. He is no fun to work with, so neither of you have any enjoyment when you go out to work. May make you really discouraged, give up CDE hopes.

We get the horses out to have a GOOD TIME, each and every time we use them. We are not going to force horses to perform when they don't enjoy it. 95% of the time we go out, things are enjoyable, smooth, fun. Everyone has off day, maybe we get a few more than others on here, using 4 horses each outing. They can take turns with stuff. We like them, they appear to have a good time as well, not difficult in any things we request of them. If we had a poor outing 60% of the time, this is NO FUN, something needs severe changes.

Standardbreds can be nice driving horses for pleasure uses. WA has said she knows some nice ridden Dressage ones. I know some real enjoyable ones, used in family driving, casual settings. There are probably some driven ones I don't know, doing CDE. I would not choose the Standardbreds for myself and my uses, or point anyone towards them, who wanted to be a player in CDE. Coaching folks love STBs, easy to match, good road speeds when out cruising around, handle a load just fine. Amish have used STBs for many years, rely on them. It is nice to have places to handle giving them away, but they are not the breed for me, not even free.

As a driver you need clear vision of your own wants and needs in a horse. Knowing your aims, goals at the start, will help prevent you picking wrong choices, less suitable body styles, way-back in the beginning of looking at horses. You may like a breed, start there, yet don't let it blind you to poor specimans or that breed may not be best for your needs. Even picking the best body for your driving uses, sometimes a horse just doesn't work out. You need to back up, maybe let him go to a more suitable home, choose another horse to continue with if you really want to reach your goals. Few folks get to the high point or goal they set, without changing horses along the way. You are learning each time out competing, skills should improve steadily. Horse may not be capable now, since the skills bar is being raised.

Do read some of the CDE winning lists of drivers, see the breeds they drive. What levels are they at? What are higher levels of horse breeds used and winning? Most multiple Drivers have several animals to swap in and out. They look for similar body types for easy matching in stride, movements. Hard to keep 4-6 going well at all times so spares are fit. One off horse, takes out the whole Team in soundness. No one gets to play. Multiples play at the very highest levels, extremely competitive, don't settle for "pretty good" in Dressage or movements from their horses. Our goal it to play up there, we need capable horses to do that. Maybe we will make it. At least you aim for it! None of the Multiples folks go out expecting to get anything less than First Place!!



GOODHORS
What we were told by higher level Multiples drivers, was that Standardbreds take too much work to get needed excellent results in Dressage. They are lovely horses, but long, lean body style is against them.

Both Standardbreds and Orlovs, are built for speed, bred the fastest to the fastest, got the great speed they are known for. This speed is attained going in straight moving ways, not bending, flexing, allows the huge overreach of the driving rear end. The best ones have a more straight, even rigid, spinal carriage in motion.

Stiff spine makes it VERY hard for them to be bending, flexing, while going forward. Not bred for bendable body. I have huge respect for the drivers who gave us this opinion. Heck, one of them showed an Appy at the World Pairs and WON!! Not a breed prejudice thing. Those guys will drive what wins.

So even though Standardbreds are very capable in pulling carriages, often kindly horses, very available, they take a lot of personal work, to get bendable. You must continue to work on the Dressage aspects, to keep them capable of scoring reasonably. I don't know any who score VERY well, but could be missing some good ones. If horse is your one and only, has you to put in the extra time and work, he might be one like WA talks about. Most Standardbreds just can't get the good scores. They are just not capable of moving the way judges want to see, not his fault, but his speed breeding.

More of the Driver needing to pick the correct body style, able to do what you want. Driving Standardbreds would seem to be a "natural" in CDE, but they are far from the most common breed used. If a horse can't do a good scoring Dressage, it will hurt in the other sections. Raw speed is not really that beneficial on Marathon, since too early is penalized like being too late. Horse needs to be bendable for Hazards and Cones, so his job is easier.
GOODHORS


Wow GoodHors I totally dissagree with you as to standardbreds and dressage. If you are talking about Standardbreds off the track, and are retraining them to be ridden, yes you may have to work much harder to get an older horse to become more bendable. But a youngster Standardbred who has not gone to the track is a completely different story. Even so,we had adopted a standardbred off the track, and he could turn on a dime, jump up and buck and twist like a snake. He was so bendable in fact he was too much for what we wanted and we gave him back to the adoption program. We adopted another one at four months from a racing breeding farm and trained him to carriage drive. Guess what, he didn't like to drive! As a four year old we gave him to someone else in the program that rode dressage, and within a month he was bringing home ribbons!
What a shame that people write off a breed as "unbendable", when there are so many loving Standardbreds doomed to go from the track to the Amish, where they are just a car to someone, and could instead be adopted into a loving home as someone's special horse. If you haven't been around the Standardbred breed recently, I can tell you that the old "slat sided" Standardbred has been replaced by very Thoroughbred looking Standardbreds, beautiful horses, many also look like Morgans, ours did. Every breed has individuals who are not talented and athletic, but if you are educated and competant as a trainer, you can get most horses to bend. After that, it's the combination of horse and rider that can continue on to higher levels in a sport, like dressage. As much talk as there is about it, and interest in it, most people who compete in dressage, do so at the lower levels, and never move up to the higher levels. There are many breeds competeing in dressage at lower levels, and they all do well. Don't write off an entire breed like that. It's usually the trainer or rider that lacks the knowledge to teach a horse to bend, not that the horse is incaple of it.
Give a horse a break. Standardbreds are willing and eager to please you, they are bred for it, or they wouldn't be willing to race till they drop.
by the way the website for the Standardbred Retirement Foundation is www.adoptahorse.org Go down the home page and see what today's Standardbred can do, and how versatile they are, and how gorgeous they look.
IMADRIVER

[ImaDriver]

Goodhors, I agree that in many ways certain breeds are looked on as "superior" because they are seen in the show ring winning. All horses have the same parts, all can get out of their own way, especially when running from something that frightens them. Because man has breed certain physical characteristics into them over time, they have been separated into individual breeds.
As to the differences in breeds today, man has created in the recent past horses that no longer bear much resemblance to what they were originallly bred for. Breeders are breeding away from what is sensible to what wins! The illustrius Warm Bloods of today came from horses meant to haul heavy loads with heavy primitive wooden carts, plow a field, and still be able to be ridden to town or hunted off of. Now however they are much finer boned, and maybe not quite so placid as they once where. Still, they fit well into many of today's sports that demand good bone, good body, and a calm temperment. Most breeds started that way also, including our American breeds, but all have changed over the last 100 years to meet changing tastes.
However, the European breeds, have had a much longer history than our American breeds, and Europe has a well established very long history ( see Spanish Riding School) with Dressage. Dressage is the basis for establishing balance and self carriage, needed for both ridden and driven dressage. Most European horses have had a basic dressage education, because dressage is so ingrained into the horse industry, that horse there are used first for dressage, then sold into other disciplines.
Combined Driving only started here in the US in the early 70's. Many of the top drivers have, and are, buying driving horses for multiples (pairs and four in hands) from Europe because the horses there have already completed their dressage usefullness, and are then sold as driving horses. If you can afford it, why not buy a horse from Europe where there are so many horses that look alike and are trained alike? And are already trained for Prix St George?
We don't have such a huge dressage industry here in America that we have "left over" top level dressage horses. Over there they do, because Dressage is a huge industry in Europe. However I and many others don't have the pocket book to import Warm Bloods from Europe. Tucker Johson, Chester Weber, etc, can afford it, and do. They can buy a block of stalls in a plane and get 3 to six imports, work with them and keep what they like and sell the rest here in America for a good price. Why should they advise you to buy a Standardbred or Saddlebred when they are so invested in Warm Bloods?
I have no envy, only respect, and am grateful that I get to see the best of the best compete at the CDE's I also compete in. I have spoken with and been advised by Bill Long, Chester Weber, Sharon Chesson and other top level drivers, all who have seen my Saddlebred and liked her very much.
In reality, almost any horse can be a driving horse, and any breed, as 100 years ago almost every horse was driven and ridden. Only the more monied families could afford a horse just for riding. Most families needed a horse to work as a driving horse because they were the trucks of their day, and that's how they made their living, farming and trucking their goods to market.
Because of the ability of some people to afford these great dressage trained warm bloods, it has become the breed every one looks to, and wants, to drive and to be seen driving.
This has influenced drivers, especiallly those new to the sport, because that is what they see winning.
Not everyone needs to drive to win, many people could use Standardbreds from off the track, but because they are seen as only horses for the track or for the Amish, no one even considers their usefullness, because no one wants to be "seen" driving a Standardbred. I have driven Standardbreds, I have seen them winning at Gladstone, Garden State, The Laurels, and many other shows. Carl Furst won many of our top shows with his Standardbred mare, including the above named shows.
But let's face it, if you have the money, why not get a more respected breed?
I understand it, wish I could afford it, but in the meantime, I am finding that not only our Standardbreds, but our American Saddlebreds (also sold to the Amish because there is no other market for them) and my latest most talented, loyal and fiercely competitve combined driving horse is a Saddlebred. Most Saddlebreds look like todays Holsteiners, except their tails have been bent in the style of their breed.( most tails go back to a normal position after they are no longer kept in a tail set) Talk about a breed that has been wrongly prejudiced against, the American Saddlebred takes alot of heat, yet forward thinking horse people are seeing this breed as a great Dressage mount, (see Harry Callahan) as well as a great carriage driving breed. Mixed with Thoroughbred lines, as well of breeds of the time(Naraganset) the American breeds diversified into 3 breeds, the Morgan, the Saddlebred, and the Standardbred.
I have heard all the comments about Standardbreds not being able to bend, not having the depth and stamina for other diciplines, except what they are bred for. Hello, calm enough to withstand todays road noise?, stamina enough to trot 20 miles a day with a full load and a heavy Amish wooden Family Wagon?? Is this not an excellent recomendation for a driving horse? or any other discipline? I understand that today's Standardbred is not bred for depth and width of body, but that doesn't mean that there aren't individuals that can be trained for something new. Maybe people like Goodhors do not want to put the time and training into an animal, Goodhors wants faster gratification. But there are people who want to, and are capable of, training a horse to bend, young or old horses. There's a horse for every saddle, or every cart.
If there was a market for Standardbred horses to be used for other sports, they would start breeding them more to please buyers instead of breeding them just for racing and then throwing them away. Which goes back to the fact that if breeders want certain abilities in their breed, and breed for it, within a few generations they can usually have it, and the Europeans have done that. Europe has had quite a head start on us here in America, because America itself is only about 200 years old, and Europe is ancient.
I wish more American horse people would start giving their own American breeds a chance to prove they can also be good at different discplines, and maybe then the Standardbreds won't be bred only for racing, and then sold to the only market that will take them, the Amish. I have respect for all breeds, but I can recognize that many individuals within those breeds could do well with the right training, even if they aren't from Europe.
I am weary of people blowing off entire breeds because of someone elses opinions. Many breeds have become "fashionable" to own, and the fashion changes faster than some breeds, and most people, can keep up with it.
Everyone starts somewhere, and if a beginner driver, or an experienced one, wants a nice horse that doesn't break the budget, I couldn't recommend the American Saddlebred and the Standardbred any higher, as the Amish prove every day how brave, loyal, and willing these breeds are, to pound down the highways and byways pulling their families safely.
Goodhors, I guess we will agree to disagree. I respect your knowledge, and your opinion, but I think that although I listen to successful drivers and try to learn from them, it doesn't mean that I can't learn for myself also, and encourage others keep an open mind when choosing a breed, because their is a breed to fit every budget and every level of experience.

[pricestory]

Wow. You guys are both very well informed and knowledgeable and write beautifully. I can't believe I'm going to even try to follow you two.
I do think you are, in part, talking about 2 different things.
There are many of us that will never be upper level drivers. Lack of time, money, energy and desire all go into that. We all have different asperations and goals.
My first driving horse was a STB from an adoption agency. He was a $20, 000 stud fee, $10,000 yearling, $800 adoption fee horse whose father was the famous Superbowl, a trotting triple crown winner. In my 3 yrs of driving him, no one ever guessed he was a STB. Everyone guessed he was a WB or a Morgan cross. There was nothing about the way he was put together that said he couldn't do dressage. I got him at 3 after only 3 races. Ridden, he was relatively easy to get on the aids and bend. In harness, it was much more difficult. I was a beginner driver and he was a perfect teacher for me. He was as bomb proof as they come. We did CDE at training level and learned the game. When I was ready to move on, I sold him to a great home, to be a pleasure driving horse, for a lady who wanted something safe, and didn't want to compete.
Not everyone who drives wants to go to the upper levels. There is plenty of room for STB in the world of driving that doesn't involve Amish and Advanced CDE.

[LostFarmer]

Experience is a great teacher but only a fool learns in no other way.

It costs the same to feed, shoe, vet, and train a horse regardless of the abilities. Why make a horse out of something that it isn't bred to excel at? Because we can? Just because we can does not mean that we should.

I can milk a beef cow and there are some that would even be worth milking but why throw out hundreds of years of selective breeding? Try making a bird dog out of a heeler. Better yet try making a herding dog out of a lab. Some might actually make it to an ammy level but go to a hunting trial or a stock dog trial and if there is one dog outside of the norm I will faint on the spot. Ever see a shire in the Kentucky Derby? How about a TB in a pulling match? There might on a rare level be an individual that crosses over disciplines but it is the exception not the rule.

To those that want to continue to miscast their horse have fun and enjoy the challenge. As for me, I will select for those that actually are bred for the job.

LF

[ImaDriver]

Thank you for your kind words Pricestory. I agree with you. I also agree with Lost Farmer. I have been a dog show person for a great part of my life, and understand your dog analogies. I understand that breeds are bred towards a purpose, but many breeds today have been bred away from that purpose, and not always with the best results. I remember when a Quarter Horse was short so you could work fixing a ranch fence where getting on and off a short horse was better than a 17 hand one when you were getting on and off it forty times or more in a day. But now they are on average 16 hands and higher. Crossed with Thoroughbred Blood they look more like a Thoroughbred than the original Quarter Horse Type. If I was buying a horse for what it is bred for Lost Farmer, and I wanted a carriage driving horse, I would be better off buying a horse bred to pull a cart like the Standardbred or the Saddlebred, as well as some of the WarmBlood breeds. If dressage is your priority, a horse that already has proven itself in dressage is of course the best choice, but it doesn't negate the fact that there are other breeds that could also do it well, if trained well. Looking in today's horse magazines I am seeing both Shires and Percherons advertising themselves as "Sport Horses". I have witnessed people breeding lighter boned and more lighter boned Haflingers, so that except for color, I would almost not know it was a full Haflinger, because they wanted to be competitve in Combined Driving. Every breed's future is in the hands of the people who breed them. But most do not breed to lose money, so they breed for what sells, to who is willing to pay the most. Right now the Warn Blood breeds dominate the market, and deservedly so, but it does not mean that over time who is buying can change. For the few brave and loyal souls who still breed dogs back into their pedigree to preserve what the breed started out as, and the horse breeder who still wants their draft breed to stay the way it is I salute you, as I believe that also. But the Knights who originally rode those drafts to tilt at opponents, may be surprised at todays draft. Will Rogers would probably laugh at a 17 hand Quarterhorse. But there are many Quarter Horses ridden in lower levels of dressage, and many breeders willing to sell to buyers like that. If a breed can grow into another discipline, why should we say it shouldn't? Breeders can breed different strains to please different buyers. If a life can be lived in a new viable way for a horse, who are we to hold it back? A horse should be evaluated for what it is capable of, not just what it's breed was bred for. They all should have value, for different reasons, and different buyers.

[goodhors]

I understand that today's Standardbred is not bred for depth and width of body, but that doesn't mean that there aren't individuals that can be trained for something new.

Maybe people like Goodhors do not want to put the time and training into an animal, Goodhors wants faster gratification

ImaDriver, this is all I kept of the long and involved post. I never said Standardbreds could not be trained for other jobs. I did say they were perhaps not the best choice for CDE. The whole discussion STARTED with CDE and horses to use in it. I said other nice things about them, other breeds in various posts.

Every breed is not suitable for every kind of horse competition, ridden or driven.

Then there is the part about my "faster gratification" and not wanting to put training time in on horses!! I about fell down laughing on that one. Yep, we hustle them right thru the training process, from foal to driving horse who starts his work life in riding at age 4 or 5, then on to Driving training. That little foal I planned and bred for. Then after he IS DRIVING, that wasted year of just showing him the ropes of group travel, "sleep-overs" at the Competitions we have dropped back a level or two, so he can learn about Hazards, cheering crowds, all that petty stuff the CDE horse needs to know. I now have about seven? years in him?? Yep, we just FLY thru training on each and every one we breed and raise for the Team.

Maybe I SHOULD get my husband a set of imported Sporthorses like Chester and Tucker drive! Sure would speed things up having trained, upper level Dressage horses to use! Buy a Dressage rider to keep them in shape between competitions. Right, we can do that just after we win the Lotto!

While you give a lot of breed history, the animals we see now, are not those horses. Expectations have changed in work, what horse needs to do to be considered successful. Comparing Standardbreds and WBs of those older times, is pretty useless, since those old styles are not what we see now. Same with Saddlebreds and the horses who made that breed. I REALLY DO NOT think the breeders of above horses, will change body styles now, to suit driving wishes!!

I started this as a CDE oriented thread, while you keep going off on some tangent about how other breeds are not fairly treated. If those other breeds were as skilled at learning Dressage, ridden or driven, as the ones competing now, they would be much more common. Cobs, pony breeds, crossbred horses, imports, everything equine, are all being shown, getting their chance to show their skills in CDE. Folks who wish to play at CDE take notice of animals that impress them with presence, skills on course, ability to do the requests of the Competition. In many cases, those animals are also the winners. This SEEMS to show these horses are the most capable of winning, in these kinds of competitions. Most folks compete to have fun at their level, do plan to win at least now and then as they gain skill.

I do believe most Driving folks are willing to put in the time needed, for gaining a horse who will work with them. What they don't want to do is put time in on an animal who can not do what driving "requests" they have. Many are like myself, unwilling to re-do a horse, put up with the holes he comes with from previous life. With my young horse, I am not having to "fix him/her" as we progress. He doesn't have problems. My horse time is limited, I want to have fun, progress him during that time.

To me, the "used horse" has more baggage than I want to deal with, mentally and often physically. I HAVE put in time re-training the cheap ones in the past, NOT fun. Usually plain hard work. I did it because then, such horses were all I could afford. I don't have to do that anymore!! We love the kindness of our chosen horses, who don't have "issues" to fix. Maybe I am into "faster gratification", didn't know it!!

Like LF and his dog comparison, you find the breed that does best at the jobs dog needs to do. Labs hunt, love jumping in cold water to fetch ducks over and over, can be a real pain near a flock of sheep or cattle. Heelers, Border Collies go silly with no livestock to work, they NEED a job to be happy.

My present horses fit a body style that allows them to bend easily, collect, move with ground covering stride, have the brains to easily accept varied training, not get stupid if we should make a mistake in competitions. Big enough to manage the required weight that Teams must pull. They stay sound, get along with each other, like being with us. We pick with "Form to Function" as our ideal. For us they are wonderful, to others they may not be the perfect choice. Good thing there are lots of animal styles to choose from!

I am done on this "best choice CDE horse" posting. You are not discussing, just going in your own direction.

[ImaDriver]

]"To me, the "used horse" has more baggage than I want to deal with, mentally and often physically. I HAVE put in time re-training the cheap ones in the past, NOT fun. Usually plain hard work. I did it because then, such horses were all I could afford. I don't have to do that anymore!! We love the kindness of our chosen horses, who don't have "issues" to fix. Maybe I am into "faster gratification", didn't know it!! [/COLOR]"
Goodhors you allude to the fact that cheap horses have issues. You know some warmbloods have issues too, but in Europe they just eat them instead. Horse meat is in the food chain in Europe. Horses with Issues just dissappear there.
Here in America I do not think all cheap horses have issues. I just know that alot of talented kind good horses that only needed a break have been sold at New Holland and ended up as meat anyway. I guess it's all so silly to you. I hoped I was talking to someone who wanted a discussion on finding horses suitable to CDE, and I think Standardbreds and Saddlebreds should be considered, because they have the ability to do it. Your comments that assume if a horse isn't expensive that it's no good because of training problems or issues are untrue. What is true is that these are the sort of unkind comments formulated from your opinion that only an expensive horse is worthwhile perpetuates these horses not to be fairly evaluated as a prospect. I guess ignorance is bliss. However with 2 dear friends running 2 major rescue efforts, I can't afford your ignorance. Many of these horses get into a situation by just bad luck, through no fault of their own. They have no issues whatsoever, except they will be stuck there in a rescue, because people with "opinions" tell others not to bother with them.
Since my disagreement with your opinion is being labeled by you as "tangents" I'm sure Goodhors hasn't read this far! Hope not to have stretched you attention span, Have a nice and Healthy Holiday Season. Does Scroog do That? Oh Yeah, after he changes his ways!

[Ashemont]

ImaD I see you are a Greenie so maybe you haven't noticed but the Driving Forum is a very GENTEEL one. There have been some heated discussions but posters always remain civil and do not attach each other personally. When they do the rest of us tune out.

I thought this would be an interesting thread since we have raised warmbloods for over 20 years and have actually bred THREE licensed stallions, two of whom have gone FEI. The third we gelded and he is now my husband's driving horse. We totally believe in letting our horses tell us what they want to do because it's so much easier on everyone... and also tends to be much more successful (I've got a whole roomful of Championship ribbons and trophies to attest to this).

When I picked out my driving pony I selected one that had the movement, overstride and schwung that I would look for in a warmblood. Maggie's success speaks for itself. So to me it simply does not make sense to, as others have said, try to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. I'm an old lady and just don't have enough time for that sort of thing ;)

To those of you who have posted so eloquently here, thank you. I've learned a lot :yes:

[War Admiral]

While I can see where Goodhors is coming from, I would like to point out that PART of what she is saying is that a lot of pro trainers simply don't want to put in the time/effort required to retrain a beastie if it's never going to be of international caliber.

That's fiiiiiiiiiiine by me; it leaves nicer cheap prospects for the rest of us! :D:lol: :yes: Quite honestly, as a trainer, patience is very much my strong point and I deeply enjoy (re)training - I enjoy it far more than I enjoy competing. I just enjoy fooling around with them at home to see what cool things we can learn to do. :cool: So if it takes me 8 years to get one civilized, hey fine, whatever. But you can't take that view if you (a) need to turn a profit or (b) desire to get into the show ring fast.

BUT I also think that in the final analysis a good horse is a good horse, regardless of breed. Conformation for the job at hand is the key.

If I were looking for an STB driving prospect, I'd be looking along these lines (http://www.spphav.org/2007SCRiddenStallion2.jpg). (Not my horse - just found him on a quick Google! :D) OK, neck is too short and *maybe* too upright, hard to tell, but WITH appropriate, patient (re)training, that would look pretty whizzy in anybody's turnout!

I think another issue that needs to be taken into account is to acknowledge that in driven dressage, there is NOT yet the need for the flamboyant motion there is nowadays in ridden dressage. Anybody remember Fred Merriam's high-scoring dressage drive at the last WEG? Quietly correct, absolutely meticulously precise in every detail, but flamboyant & showbizzy, it was NOT. It was simply correct dressage. Which you can practice with any horse. ;)

[Thomas_1]

What an absolutely excellent thread and I am in absolute accord with everything that Goodhors said. Superb points well made. And then summed up soooo succinctly and simply by LostFarmer.

I learnt from other threads posted on this forum though, that some folks do not begin to understand type and purpose and have a rather curious approach to seeing any hint or suggestion that their chosen breed might not be best able to do some well as some sort of personal attack! Remember the thread on t/b's and my assertion that they don't make the best driving horses ........ and despite the fact they're my number one favourite breed AND I was stupid enough to drive them successfully there were folks who insisted that here was a breed that needed "defending" . Now in that case the t/b breed was "defended" by folks who were not experienced nor knowledgeable successful competive drivers.
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=2490595&highlight=thoroughly+blood+bred#post2490595

You know some warmbloods have issues too, but in Europe they just eat them instead. Horse meat is in the food chain in Europe. Horses with Issues just dissappear there. Get your facts right! The UK do not have a horse meat trade and never have had and neither have many other countries in mainland Europe.

Then horses don't just "disappear". EVERY equid (horse, pony or donkey - even in rescue establishements) in every country affiliated to the EEC has a passport with total traceability.

you might want to read this for further information and education:
http://www.themanestreet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48466&highlight=passport

Here in America I do not think all cheap horses have issues

Furthermore there's plenty of terrible horses owned and bred by folks who know no better in Europe, just the same as in the USA: and they're cheap and generally they've got issues (no matter where in the world they are): "cheap" implies selling below the market rate and there's no such thing as a bargain. Trust me, if it sounds too good to be true, then it is to good to be true.
Your comments that assume if a horse isn't expensive that it's no good because of training problems or issues are untrue.

Cheap often stares you in the face as unsound, poor condition, poor health but its ordinarily poor conformation, unproven, untrained. Cheap often means been owned by someone who doesn't have the wit and wherewithall to do the animal justice and hence has invested NOTHING into it which needs to be recovered. So NO training, no schooling, NOTHING.

I hoped I was talking to someone who wanted a discussion on finding horses suitable to CDE, and I think Standardbreds and Saddlebreds should be considered, because they have the ability to do it. And that is precisely what you got. However I suspect that what you actually were looking for was some sort of purile "yayyyy go for it, Standardbreds or whatever make great CDE horses". Experience and knowledge though has come to the fore - as it often does on this forum.

If you want to compete successfully then you'd be best advised NOT to chose a saddlebred. Or come to that a standard bred. If you don't mind just travelling round the country and paying entry fees then heck, please yourself what you want to do.

What is true is that these are the sort of unkind comments formulated from your opinion that only an expensive horse is worthwhile perpetuates these horses not to be fairly evaluated as a prospect. I guess ignorance is bliss. I presume that is a condition that you are comfortable with and recognise. And until you actually come to appreciate the facts and that means heeding what those with experience and knowledge say you'll stay in that state.

You've not had any "unkind" comments here. You've had FACTS. The FACT a standardbred is not ordinarily considered to be the horse of choice for CDE is not an insult or unkind. Its just a fact. Get over it!

However with 2 dear friends running 2 major rescue efforts, I can't afford your ignorance. Many of these horses get into a situation by just bad luck, through no fault of their own. They have no issues whatsoever, except they will be stuck there in a rescue, because people with "opinions" tell others not to bother with them. I'm not sure why you've made a quantum leap from talking about driving breed horses to talking about rejected cheap pitiful animals. If you're suggesting that CDE carriage drivers are in some way responsible for that and because of their ignorance, then this must rate as the 2007 winner for being illogical falacy.

Since my disagreement with your opinion is being labeled by you as "tangents" I'm sure Goodhors hasn't read this far! Hope not to have stretched you attention span, Have a nice and Healthy Holiday Season. Does Scroog do That? Oh Yeah, after he changes his ways! Happy Christmas to you too

[War Admiral]

If you want to compete successfully then you'd be best advised NOT to chose a saddlebred.

Ahem. With all due respect, Thomas, could you please cite in detail the extent of your hands-on experience with American Saddlebreds? ;) And the detailed reasoning behind your advice?

And then you might want to do a Google for Misdee Wrigley, who indeed has successfully competed Saddlebred multiples in coaching.

Again - very much like TBs - if you pick the *right* prospect there is absolutely no reason not to drive an ASB. It is, after all, what ASBs were bred for.

You seriously trying to tell me you would NOT want to consider this horse (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRpjVbiUIAA) if you were looking for a top-level driven dressage prospect? (Not that you could pry him out of the cold, dead hands of his current owners, given that he's fixing to start competing internationally soon! :yes:)

[Ginger]

I think Thomas is confusing Saddlebred with Standardbred. Many do who are not familiar with both breeds. I would agree that Standardbreds are not upper level driving horses - and I have soon a few who physically couldn't do even training level. But Saddlebreds and Saddlebred-crosses, provided their backs aren't low, make excellent driving horses.

[Happy Feet]

I think Lost Farmer sumed it up very well! It cost the same no matter if you have the best horse, or the worst one. The daily bills are all about the same. Finding a horse suitable to what your goals are is the most important thing. It is much more fun to put your time and money into something that is fun and enjoyable, something that is built and bred for it's job is enjoyable.

I will say though, assess each horse as an individual, you never know where you'll find a great horse. Just because a horse has a large price tag doesn't make him the right horse for you, and just because it comes with a designer lable, doesn't make it more suitable either!

My farrier told me a story about a client who imported a warmblood from Holland (about 20 years ago) and had lameness problems from the day she had the horse. The farrier had a Dutch man as an apprentice for awhile, and while shoeing this womans horse she asked the apprentice "Well what do you do with this horse?" And he replied " Ma'am, We'd eat this horse".
Americans are gettign smarter about buying crap in Europe, but there still is alot of problems (in the US and Abroad), on the market waiting for someone to buy it. Buyer beware, have an excellent trainer look at and help you in deciding on your next horse (wether here or abroad, and have a VERY thorough vetting done, with a very good vet (most people should be sending the xrays to BIG named clinics with very good reputations)

Also if someone wants to train a breed for a discipline the horse is not bred for, find someone who has that breed doing what you want to do with the horse, and have them to help you find a horse in that breed. They found one, know what to look for, what to watch out for. There is a trainer in KY (I think) that is known for having a lovely Saddlebred she will be showing Grand Prix dressage, he is the first of his breed to make it to GP. She has others of the breed she does well in open dressage shows, If I HAD to have a saddlebred, I'd go to her since she has some expierence with the breed doing what I'd like to. But as a side note: only one saddlebred has made it to GP - That should be a headsup as to how difficult they are to make dressage horses - there are quite a few Arabians that have competed in GP, QH, TB's but only one Saddlebred (and he hasn't made it yet! LOL)

[War Admiral]

Not fair to compare the NUMBER of ASBs to the number of TBs/QH competing in dressage.

The last statistic I saw, ASHA was registering in the neighborhood of 2200 ASBs a year. Compare that to the many *many* thousands of TBs and QH being put on the ground and realize that of *course* there are going to be more TB and QH competing successfully - in any discipline.

[Renae]

And then you might want to do a Google for Misdee Wrigley, who indeed has successfully competed Saddlebred multiples in coaching.


Just to point out I don't believe Misdee Wrigley has ever had a Saddlebred coaching team. As far as I know she started with Friesians, then got Hackney Horses and now has Dutch Harness Horses for coaching and does combined driving events with her Dutch Harness Horses. She of course also has American Sadlebred show horses.

And as far as coaching events go I have been told by several coaching people that Friesians are the beginner breed, the breed you start with, but if you want to top notch competitive coaching team you get Hackney Horses or Dutch Harness Horses.

At the lower levels in any sport I htink there is a place for all kinds, but if you wish to be comeptitive you do need to seriously think about what it will take to get there. I do concede to goodhors that perhaps the Standardbred is not the ideal national/international levl CDE horse. But for how many drivers is that a realistic goal? On the one hand you want to have somehting suitable, but on the other hand how pratical is buying an international advanced level quality horse, in both physical ability and temperament, if you are going to mainly recreational drive and do 1 or 2 events a year?

[War Admiral]

Just to point out I don't believe Misdee Wrigley has ever had a Saddlebred coaching team. As far as I know she started with Friesians, then got Hackney Horses and now has Dutch Harness Horses for coaching and does combined driving events with her Dutch Harness Horses. She of course also has American Sadlebred show horses.

I know she's doing Hackney horses now, but I thought she had shown a 4 of ASBs at some point?? But I can't remember who told me that. It was before I got re-interested in them, so maybe in the 1970s-80s??

[Renae]

I know she's doing Hackney horses now, but I thought she had shown a 4 of ASBs at some point?? But I can't remember who told me that. It was before I got re-interested in them, so maybe in the 1970s-80s??

There was an article in one of the carriage magazines a few years back detailing how she surprisingly inherited her grandmothers carriage collection that had been at a museum, she didnt' even know that it was there and the family still owned it, and the musuem did not want the carriages anymore so wanted to return them to the family and that is how she got intersted in carriage driving. Of course we are speaking hereof a wonderful family that has been supportive of the American equine scene for several generations, not only Saddlebreds and carriage driving, but race horses and Arabians :)

[Happy Feet]

Not fair to compare the NUMBER of ASBs to the number of TBs/QH competing in dressage.

The last statistic I saw, ASHA was registering in the neighborhood of 2200 ASBs a year. Compare that to the many *many* thousands of TBs and QH being put on the ground and realize that of *course* there are going to be more TB and QH competing successfully - in any discipline.

That is true but the fact that there will only be one (who hasn't yet to go down the centerline at GP) is still not a great adivertisment for the breed.

I would like to say one other thing. Temperment is in my mind the most important thing. I know the "special" top horses in any discipline are often not the easy ones, you want that sparkle. Most people even ones that have high ambitions can't handle or deal with those "special" horses. When I look for a horse for myself or a student I buy the temperment first. Yes depending on the budget, conformation and ability is very important, but temperment can and often does make up for any weaknesses in a horses conformation when they LOVE what they do. You can have the best built horse but if it doesn't love it's job in life, its just as big of a disapointment as one that isn't made to do the work.

[War Admiral]

This is very true. Temperament does come second to conformation in my book, but only in the broadest possible context, e.g. not trying to use a draft for CDE's, not trying to use a TB/ASB for heavy pulling! :D I don't want to end up with a horse I cannot use for my discipline - so esp. with the TBs and ASBs I loff, I'm looking for back/hind end strength which can often be lacking in both breeds. So long as they are physically up to the job, anything else can be trained into them IF they have the desire.

[HackneyHorseDriver]

There was an article in one of the carriage magazines a few years back detailing how she surprisingly inherited her grandmothers carriage collection that had been at a museum, she didnt' even know that it was there and the family still owned it, and the musuem did not want the carriages anymore so wanted to return them to the family and that is how she got intersted in carriage driving. Of course we are speaking hereof a wonderful family that has been supportive of the American equine scene for several generations, not only Saddlebreds and carriage driving, but race horses and Arabians :)

Yes the carriages are in a lovely carriage house at Misdees farm, Hillcroft in Paris, KY. I have visited several times and also enjoyed reviewing her stallions and stock. Misdee started out driving Freisians with a coach, then moved to imported Hackney horses, she is now showing a four of Dutch Harness horses. Hillcroft is also home to her string of Saddlebred show horses and Hackney horse breeding operation. She recently also had an open barn through the CAA I believe this past summer. Not to be missed if your in the area.
Denise

[HackneyHorseDriver]

Well written Goodhors and Lostfarmer.
Thank you for putting it in writing.

[Sithly]

I agree that if you want to be competitive at the top levels of a sport, you should buy a horse that's built for the job. But the vast, vast majority of riders and drivers don't have high level aspirations (except maybe in fantasyland).

Like me for example. I have one horse that I use for everything. Jumping, dressage, cross country, working cattle, western pleasure, driving, camping, and anything else I can think of. He does everything well at the lower levels. He'll do CDE someday when I have the money for it.

Point being, I will probably be limited by my own skill level before I'm limited by my horse. Sure, it would be easier to buy a specialized horse for each discipline I do. So what. I'd rather learn how to maximize the potential of the horse I have. Especially if we're talking about dressage. For me, the point of dressage is to train the horse to be the best it can be, not to go out and win on an easy horse. (But, that's just me, and it probably explains why I'm not competing at the top levels of anything. :lol:)


ETA: By the way, my horse is half ASB. :D

[CDE Driver]

Thank you to all! I think this is a very worthwhile topic of discussion.

I would just like to add that within any breed there are anomalies. That odd individual that excels where it ought not. Those individuals may not conform to the breed standard and by that fact they are able to shine in say, dressage or CDEs.

I think you start out ahead of the game going with an even mediocre example of a breed that has a history of success in the arena of your choice. Reinventing the wheel seems like an inefficient use of your time, money and energy.

[ImaDriver]

Driving my Saddlebred at The Laurels 2005. Her first season out and her fifth CDE. We showed our Cheval Canadien last year and this year we stopped to break and train our newest horse, another saddlebred. Both my Saddlebreds were bought from Kentucky breeders, they were not rejects with issues, I chose the breed because of their lightness in the bit, the ability for self carriage, conformation and beauty. Their affection and loyalty was a bonus. http://www.combineddriving.com/images/357_Stella.jpg

[hitchinmygetalong]

Ahem. With all due respect, Thomas, could you please cite in detail the extent of your hands-on experience with American Saddlebreds? ;) And the detailed reasoning behind your advice?

And then you might want to do a Google for Misdee Wrigley, who indeed has successfully competed Saddlebred multiples in coaching.

Again - very much like TBs - if you pick the *right* prospect there is absolutely no reason not to drive an ASB. It is, after all, what ASBs were bred for.

You seriously trying to tell me you would NOT want to consider this horse (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRpjVbiUIAA) if you were looking for a top-level driven dressage prospect? (Not that you could pry him out of the cold, dead hands of his current owners, given that he's fixing to start competing internationally soon! :yes:)

No one is arguing the suitability of ASB's to harness. But I've gone back and read this thread twice and I'm CERTAIN it started as a discussion of breeds suitable to CDE's.

Cream rises to the top and when ASB's start showing up and winning at the FEI level they will gain the respect that you are so convinced they deserve. Until that day, you and ASB fanciers can argue the point til the cows come home. The proof is in the pudding and competing and WINNING is how other "more suitable" breeds have earned their status.

Good luck to all. And happy holidays! :yes:

[War Admiral]

No one is arguing the suitability of ASB's to harness. But I've gone back and read this thread twice and I'm CERTAIN it started as a discussion of breeds suitable to CDE's.


And MY point is that when experienced drivers like Thomas start making blanket statements such as "This is not a CDE-capable breed", when they have never even SEEN an ASB up close and personal (no offense, Thomas, but this is a fact - you know it and I know it - you didn't even know what they were when you first started posting here), it pretty much guarantees that nobody new to the sport will consider what is, in my opinion, a worthy horse IF you can find the right one.

"I've never seen it, therefore it must not exist" is not a persuasive argument to me, no matter who makes it. :D

[hitchinmygetalong]

I'm totally confused. Who brought ASB's into the topic, anyway? I can't find a reference to Saddlebred's anywhere in the first post - only STANDARDBREDS.

Yes, INDIVIDUALS of any breed may excel at a "not the norm" discipline for that particular breed, but oftentimes that is because of not only the horse's unique qualities (which, by the way, may mean the horse is off-type for the breed) but also a doggedly determined owner who is driven to prove a point.

I honestly don't understand why there is any need to argue the point of suitability. Just go out and show and ride and drive and enjoy your horses. This is supposed to be FUN, remember? :D

[Sithly]

I think we are seeing a difference in mindset, here. There are people who are focused on the sport, and people who are focused on the horse. (The two are not mutually exclusive, but rather a sort of continuum.)

People who are focused on the sport will pick the most suitable horse for the sport, train dilligently for the sport, and go out and compete and win in their chosen sport. I think that kind of dedication is admirable.

The people who focus on the horse will pick the horse most suited to their own personal ideals, train dilligently, and go out and do their thing. That's admirable, too.

IME, trying to convince the latter group of people that they "ought" to have a certain breed just won't work. The breed they have chosen suits them for their own personal reasons, which may or may not match the ideals for the sport -- but the sport may not be their highest priority. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. People pick horses for 9872375 different reasons, none of which are intended to offend the competitive types.

I believe that if you're shopping for a CDE horse (or any horse), you should work out which sort of person you are beforehand and shop accordingly.

[Ginger]

Sithly, you are being over-the-top too rational!! :D I also happen to agree with you.

[mares tails]

I think we are seeing a difference in mindset, here.

... and different definitions of "suitable"

There's a lot of room between capable of competing and capable of winning at the highest level. Neither is "wrong" - they're just different.

.

[Thomas_1]

And then you might want to do a Google for Misdee Wrigley, who indeed has successfully competed Saddlebred multiples in coaching.

Now I mentioned standardbreds and saddlebreds and that was specifically in the context to responding to a previous poster.

However if you really do mean coaching as opposed to CDE then what does that have to do with suitability for competitive CDE??

You seriously trying to tell me you would NOT want to consider this horse (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRpjVbiUIAA) if you were looking for a top-level driven dressage prospect? In all honesty, No I wouldn't.

But remember we were talking about competitive CDE so what does that horse have to do with this topic?

This topic is about breed suitability for competitive work. There'll always be exceptions but once again you're kidding yourself if you think they're the breed of choice to do well at competitive horse driving trials.

...
There's a lot of room between capable of competing and capable of winning at the highest level. Neither is "wrong" - they're just different.
.
Absolutely right. One goes to compete and make every effort to win and the other doesn't mind travelling up and down the country and paying entry fees.

Its always seemed to me that if you are interested in competition then you do everything possible to give yourself a chance of winning.

[CDE Driver]

I think we are seeing a difference in mindset, here. There are people who are focused on the sport, and people who are focused on the horse. (The two are not mutually exclusive, but rather a sort of continuum.)

People who are focused on the sport will pick the most suitable horse for the sport, train dilligently for the sport, and go out and compete and win in their chosen sport. I think that kind of dedication is admirable.

The people who focus on the horse will pick the horse most suited to their own personal ideals, train dilligently, and go out and do their thing. That's admirable, too.

IME, trying to convince the latter group of people that they "ought" to have a certain breed just won't work. The breed they have chosen suits them for their own personal reasons, which may or may not match the ideals for the sport -- but the sport may not be their highest priority. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. People pick horses for 9872375 different reasons, none of which are intended to offend the competitive types.

I believe that if you're shopping for a CDE horse (or any horse), you should work out which sort of person you are beforehand and shop accordingly.

Please re read the original post. Goodhors is talking about very competitive, combined driving horses. I thought that was the purpose of this discussion, and I ws looking forward to it! Oh well.

[Sithly]

... and different definitions of "suitable"

There's a lot of room between capable of competing and capable of winning at the highest level. Neither is "wrong" - they're just different.

.

Agreed. :) At the point I'm at now, the latter type of horse would be wasted on me. :lol::lol: That could change in the future ... who knows. I doubt I will ever have the competitive drive it takes to get to the highest levels, so my horse shopping decisions are based on lots of other factors instead.

[Happy Feet]

No one is arguing the suitability of ASB's to harness. But I've gone back and read this thread twice and I'm CERTAIN it started as a discussion of breeds suitable to CDE's.

Cream rises to the top and when ASB's start showing up and winning at the FEI level they will gain the respect that you are so convinced they deserve. Until that day, you and ASB fanciers can argue the point til the cows come home. The proof is in the pudding and competing and WINNING is how other "more suitable" breeds have earned their status.

Good luck to all. And happy holidays! :yes:

Amen.

I didn't see the reference WA made to Harry Callahan, who was the ONE GP ASB I was refering to. I would also like to make a point, that just because a horse is showing nationally (throughout the US) at GP (which from what I can see/know) is what is planned for the horse, and showing a horse Internationally at GP is two VERY different things. Showing a horse at a small CDI in the middle of Timbuck Too, is not considered international.

[Sithly]

Please re read the original post. Goodhors is talking about very competitive, combined driving horses. I thought that was the purpose of this discussion, and I ws looking forward to it! Oh well.

Probably was the intended purpose, but as usual, the conversation has drifted. *shrug* It happens. If you have more to say about very competitive combined driving horses, I'm listening. :)

[Happy Feet]

I understand the discussion is on highly competitve CDE horses. I have way more expierence with dressage horses, and use that knowledge to influence dissisions concerning things like picking suitable horses. I dont' think CDE is any different than how you'd go about picking a horse for ANY highly competitive discipline. Also it had been brought up as to how stiff and hard they are to teach dressage to - albeit driven dressage - since I know a bit about ridden I took the bait and commented on the aptitude of ASB for dressage.
I guess I wonder what the thread was intended for - general discussion on how to pick suitable horses for your choosen discipline or is someone looking for specific details of what they should be buying?

I guess my comments are coming based on a theory that when you seek out a horse for high level competition, you should be looking for a horse that has a super mind, great conformation, shows great aptitude for what you plan to do with it, with as much training as you can afford. Although you certainly shouldn't limit your self to any particular breed, you can make some assumptions as to what breeds are most likely to do well. Meaning going to look at a 10 ASB (or other similar breeds) is less of bet (in finding one that is suitable), than say 10 warmbloods, or warmblood crosses, I guess it depends on how much travel $$ your wanting to spend.
And I am totally forgetting that as I preach about how great warmbloods are, I drive Hackney ponies which I don't think (and certainly if I am wrong correct me as I'd love to know more!) have traditionley done really well in CDE competition. Although when I bought the pony my concern was for a safe and fun driving pony which the family could enjoy, now that I am hooked on CDE's I guess my ponies are coming along for the ride! Fortunately noth seem fairly well suited to CDE and seem to be doing pretty well. Are we going to Worlds - my hunch in no, but that isn't really my goal anyway. Now fro someone who really wants to do then they might have sold the Hackneys for something different...

[Gestalt]

The cost of this sport is so high that if I were to think seriously about competing I would want to get the most capable horse for my dollar.

[Ashemont]

We have bred and sold international quality warmbloods for over two decades. I always tell prospective buyers that the initial cost of the horse is just the tip of the iceberg and it costs the same amount (often less) to keep a good horse as it does to keep a questionable one. If you are going to pursue a sport why not pick an animal who will not limit you? You never know where it will go and if you put the training into a quality animal you will have a much better market for it should you decide to sell at a later date.

My riding horse has scored 70's in dressage, won Championships in hand and is so good that the German inspectors have tried to buy her to take back to Germany. She's expecting a foal next year but will not be re-bred and will most likely only carrying my old but around the back woods a few times a year. But so what? She's happy. I'm happy. And it's a lot more fun to ride a real quality horse with outstanding gaits :winkgrin: If I ever do get serious about showing under saddle again, I've a got horse who can do well in any company so it makes sense to me to keep her.

Our driving horses are also extremely talented, quality animals. Capable of far more than we will probably do with them. BUT.... should a miracle happen and we decide to go to a higher level we won't need to get another horse/pony. JMO

[lindac]

Cream rises to the top and when ASB's start showing up and winning at the FEI level they will gain the respect that you are so convinced they deserve. Until that day, you and ASB fanciers can argue the point til the cows come home. The proof is in the pudding and competing and WINNING is how other "more suitable" breeds have earned their status.

Good luck to all. And happy holidays! :yes:

Hello everyone,

Since my horse (Harry Callahan) has been mentioned, I thought I would take this opportunity to respond.

There is one correction, there HAVE been other ASB's who have made it to Grand Prix Level. Albert Ostermier and his ASB stallion Patriot are one example as is Dr Dale Detrich, a student of Chuck Grant, who had a mare at Grand Prix. (Of course this was some 20 or more years ago). Emma Dye and My Privateer showed at the FEI levels also.
Hilda Gurney's Fancy Trick, showing and winning at Grand Prix, is Half Saddlebred and I know of several more ASB's who are showing 3-4th and are knocking on the door of FEI Level's.

I think the confusion about Harry showing Internationally is a mis-understanding of the terminology of FEI being the "International" levels of Dressage. But certainly I have no intention or aspirations to have my horse compete Internationally. Most certainly he is competitive Regionally, and perhaps at the National level, but NEVER have I thought that he could go International...

Why is there not more ASB's showing at FEI level? Because it is traditional to show ASB's Saddle Seat. Not many people are using these horses in the FEI disciplines so there are very few even out there competing. Right now if you look up ASB's in the USDF All-Breeds program there are 11 horses. Thats right eleven! So there is one Grand Prix horse in there. What is the percentage of other breeds horses who make Grand Prix? (just curious)

Harry's first show at Grand Prix will be Pine Knoll Spring Show (aka Timbuck Too :D, sorry Happy Feet, I just had to throw that in). His next show will be KDA Spring Dressage show which will be a CDI* this coming year and maybe we will qualify for Devon again next year (Harry qualified to go last year when he showed Prix St. Georges, but I could not justify the travel and expense to show in one class).

So, with the very limited horses out there competing, ASB's are really nice horses who can do the work. They have 2 things making it VERY hard to see more of them in the FEI Disciplines. The Traditional Saddlebred people, who would rather call the meat man to get rid of their excess stock who won't work out in their program, and people from other disciplines who refuse to even consider them and who have never seen a really nice ASB and make a blanket statement that all ASB's are unsuitable for FEI work.

It has been said that the largest demographic group of members in the USDF are Amateur women who show at 2nd level and below.They are the bread and butter of the USDF. I would bet that the largest group of people who compete at CDE's are at your mid to lower levels too. These are people that the ASB would be perfect for.

Some pics and video's

My horse Harry schooling the piaffe, passage, and one tempis.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=un5eHWNMl5Y

Albert Ostermaier and his ASB stallion Patriot

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Qf-VH6zHEgg

http://youtube.com/watch?v=iqSTIjl8N78

Pictures of Singsation, a former Five gaited and Fine Harness horse who is going to be competing in CDE in the spring.

http://www.knightskyefarm.com/KSF/default.asp?id=2&mnu=2

The ASHA does have a video showing a 4 in hand of ASB's pulling a coach, It was probably from the early 1980's so I have no idea whose horses they are.

By all means, if you want to compete at the TOP level of your chosen sport, then buy what makes you feel happy, competitve, etc. But please don't make a blanket statement about our horses and/or try to steer people away from them. Everyone should make up their own mind about what makes them happy.

[Thomas_1]

Hello everyone,

Since my horse (Harry Callahan) has been mentioned, I thought I would take this opportunity to respond. I've got confused. Is your horse competing in Combined Driving Events? If so is he at fei level.

And nice horse by the way.

Right now if you look up ASB's in the USDF All-Breeds program there are 11 horses. Thats right eleven! Do you mean 11 competing fei CDE?

The ASHA does have a video showing a 4 in hand of ASB's pulling a coach, It was probably from the early 1980's so I have no idea whose horses they are. In the context of this posting, that would be somewhat irrelevent. Coaching is not Horse Driving Trials

By all means, if you want to compete at the TOP level of your chosen sport, then buy what makes you feel happy, competitve, etc. But please don't make a blanket statement about our horses and/or try to steer people away from them. Everyone should make up their own mind about what makes them happy. To ignore the fundamentals of breeding for purpose and type seems bizarre and irrational IMO.

Of course folks can make up their own mind what they want, but it would be doing them a disservice if the advice from professionals and those competing with regard to selecting a horse for suitability for Horse Driving Trials was to buy one that "made them happy"

[ImaDriver]

:yes::)When someone is deciding which breed to choose for a CDE prospect, what do you think they are basing their choice on? Are they basing it solely on conformation? On movement? Are they looking at statistics and going out and buying a young horse of that breed? Most people that I know do not have the budget to spend between twenty to forty thousand dollars on a CDE horse that already has proven their abilities as an Advanced horse. Being a successful FEI level (Advanced) CDE horse depends not just only on conformation or movement, it also helps to have attitude, the "GO" to be able to be a CDE Advanced horse. Many Preliminary drivers that jumped over to Advanced, found that the further distances proved too much for their Preliminary horse, or the Preliminary horse that excelled in Preliminary lost their fire in Advanced. You can't "wish" your horse to be an Advanced level horse. Drivers like Scott Monroe were able to step up with their horses, and many of those drivers drive Morgans, like Scott's Shadow. Morgans happen to be one of, if not the top, of the breeds winning in both Pairs and Singles here in America.
Some breeds, like Friesians and Dutch Harness horses, burn out with their higher leg action over the longer distances.
Since most people who get into driving are usually putting safety first in their choices, we see various breeds being used in CDEs. When they get a good dressage test, and they do well in training level, they move up to Preliminary. However, their good dressage score does not always mean they will win, because many times the calm quiet safe horse, does not always turn into an aggressive hazards horse. Most of the drivers are happy to stay at Preliminary. Many drivers stay at Training level!
We have been showing at Preliminary, and will step up into Advanced. We are experienced and have the qualifications to go Advanced. My plans are to eventually go Pairs, just haven't found the right match yet. Of my six horses, I found that only my Saddlebred had that fire to want to move on to whatever I asked of her, including moving up to Advanced.
In buying a horse for CDE, whether it is a Gaited breed or not, the other half of the Equation, is the driver's ambition, and also talent and ability as the Whip to move up to Advanced Level.
As I pointed out in one of my earlier posts, CDEing is new in this country, as compared to Europe. We have a very small piece of the pie as far as the percentage of the horse world that is driving here. The first generation of ADS drivers is now "aging out" and realizing how important it is to start bringing young people into this Sport, so there is a next generation of carriage drivers here. The first driving camps for young drivers was sponsored by the ADS just in 2006.
Hopefully when I get into Advanced and start showing up in the Statistics there, more people will consider a Saddlebred.
Saddlebreds are a great breed for Combined Driving for some important reasons. Fine Harness classes are very prevalent, as in the Hackney horse breed, which keeps conformation as a driving horse high on the list for breeders. Being broken to harness is extremely common in Saddlebred training, almost every Saddlebred is broken to ride and drive by the time it is a 2 year old. Besides Harness driving, gaited training encourages a slight uphill topline, a good layback of shoulder, and a powerful driving hindquarter. A calm, willing work ethic, is what keeps the Saddlebred mentally stable enough to withstand the intense physical training demands, the noise and activity at shows, and the mental ability to enjoy going forward through it all. For those people that consider a Saddlebred a gaited breed, it combines good natural movement plus training to create the high stepping movement one sees when viewing a gaited saddlebred.
This good movement, driving hindquarters, uphill build, and great mindset, makes for a wonderful combined driving prospect. PS: It also makes for a great dressage prospect. For those of you that think a Saddlebred is not deep enough, does not have the strength, physically and mentally, to be a great dressage horse, remember again, that dressage is still relatively new here in America, and breeders have not had the call for either CDEing or Dressage yet, so have not aimed their breeding programs at these sports. Even so, the Saddlebred that is bred today, is already proving that it has what it takes to be an upper level sport horse. In my humble opinion of course!

[Thomas_1]

Lippezzaners, Hanovarian, Dutch Warmbloods, Trakehner, Cleveland Bay, Gelderlanders, Holsteiner, Russian Trotters all immediately spring to mind as being consistently doing well fei.

Or then again you can make a breed up like the famous "Cumberland Cobs" ;)

[ImaDriver]

Morgans are the most common breed I see, many of the the top drivers here in singles and pairs drive Morgans. Scott Monroe, Fred Mirriam, Lisa Singer, I can't remember more right now, but Morgans are very popular here on the East Coast. Also a lot of Perceron crosses. In ponies, I do think Welsh dominate, even Welsh crosses.

[lindac]

I've got confused. Is your horse competing in Combined Driving Events? If so is he at fei level.

And nice horse by the way.

Do you mean 11 competing fei CDE?

In the context of this posting, that would be somewhat irrelevent. Coaching is not Horse Driving Trials

To ignore the fundamentals of breeding for purpose and type seems bizarre and irrational IMO.

Of course folks can make up their own mind what they want, but it would be doing them a disservice if the advice from professionals and those competing with regard to selecting a horse for suitability for Horse Driving Trials was to buy one that "made them happy"

Thomas,

Thank you for the complement.

My horse's video on YouTube has been linked on this thread in post number #11 by War Admiral, and he was mentioned by name in post #34 by Happy Feet. I was responding to some of the things that have been said about him, as there are some inaccuracies.

My horse is clearly a Dressage horse that has never been driven ever in his life. He has been shown the past 2 years in Dressage at FEI level at United States Equestrian Federation rated shows. (Prix St Georges and Intermediaire-2) Next spring he will show in Grand Prix.

There are 11 ASB's listed in the United States Dressage Federation All Breeds award program, and I believe my horse is the only ASB competing at FEI level in Dressage at this time. What this has to do with CDE, nothing. I have no clue how many ASB's are competing in CDE. I am responding to those who have said that ASB's aren't good for FEI level competition.

A team of ASB's was mentioned by several people WA in post #11 and in posts #15,#16,#17, #20. I was offering an explanation of what they may have seen, a four in hand of ASB's pulling a coach in a video from the 1980's.


Cheer's!

[Thomas_1]

My horse's video on YouTube has been linked on this thread in post number #11 by War Admiral, and he was mentioned by name in post #34 by Happy Feet. I was responding to some of the things that have been said about him, as there are some inaccuracies. Ah right. I personally wasn't aware that there were inaccuracies. Rather I'd just thought your horse was being used as a poor example in the context of this thread.

I believe my horse is the only ASB competing at FEI level in Dressage at this time.What this has to do with CDE, nothing. I have no clue how many ASB's are competing in CDE. I am responding to those who have said that ASB's aren't good for FEI level competition. Did anyone say they weren't any good for ANY fei competitive event? I thought we were talking specifically about horse driving trials (CDE to you guys). Some folks (myself included) are adamant that there are some breeds more likely to be successful and some breeds best avoided when making the choice to compete at THAT sport. Some folks also said that there's sometimes occasional and rare exceptions that disprove the rule of breeding for purpose and type.

Clearly your horse is an exception proving this exception.

[lindac]

Clearly your horse is an exception proving this exception.

EXCEPT that there are more exceptions coming along and no doubt you will see these exceptions more and more in the showring, both in CDE and Dressage. ;)

[Renae]

Some breeds, like Friesians and Dutch Harness horses, burn out with their higher leg action over the longer distances.


That is a misconception that you are really going to continue to spread? The Dutch Harness Horse is a very well proven international level advanced CDE competitor. Several drivers competing at the international advanced level drive Dutch Harness Horses. There are also Dutch Harness Horses competing internationally in Grand Prix dressage. For those who are not aware, ImaDriver will promote the Saddelbred, another breed I admire, to high heavens every chance she can get on bulletin boards, but will take every opportunity to knock the Dutch Harness Horse, ironically a breed that uses both the Hackney Horse and SADDLEBRED for outcross blood, a breed that she has never handled, ridden or driven despite being in the same state as me and being invited to my barn any time she likes. So obviously I get a bit sick of it :dead: and wonder why she has to knock down one breed that is proven good at that prupose in order to promote another?

I also had to laugh that you go on further in your post to say

Saddlebreds are a great breed for Combined Driving for some important reasons. Fine Harness classes are very prevalent, as in the Hackney horse breed, which keeps conformation as a driving horse high on the list for breeders.
when you were just knocking the Dutch harness Horse for having higher leg action, you offer up that the Saddlebred, bred for high leg action in Fine Harness classes, is a good thing? Can you contradict yourself even more? Could you also remeber that the Dutch Harness horse is bred for true gaits that don't need excessive shoeing (no pads are allowed and shoes must be within a certain dimension), whereas with the Saddlebred you are allowed to and often see fine harness horses wearing pad stacks, heavy shoes, lead and bands?

(The Dutch Harness Horse is one of the three breeds the KWPN administers, along with the Dutch Warmblood and Gelderlander. The Dutch Harness Horse is the Gelderlander, a dual purpose breed, bred especially for driving by selecting the Gelderlanders that showed the most ability in harness, and then allowing the breeder to use Hackney Horse and Saddlebred blood when they see fit. The new Hackney Horse and Saddlebred blood that comes in is analyzed for its contribution to the Dutch Harness Horse through both conformation and performance evaluation and veterinary examination. A Dutch Harness Horse must be minimum 25% Dutch blood, and most of the top Dutch Harness Horse these days are abdou 75% Dutch blood, 25% outcross blood.)

[War Admiral]

Morgans are the most common breed I see, many of the the top drivers here in singles and pairs drive Morgans. Scott Monroe, Fred Mirriam, Lisa Singer, I can't remember more right now, but Morgans are very popular here on the East Coast. Also a lot of Perceron crosses. In ponies, I do think Welsh dominate, even Welsh crosses.

But here's the thing: as a volunteer at the Intl. CDE that used to be near me, one year I had the chance to actually sit and talk over dinner w/ a couple of the IHP drivers mentioned above plus a few more, PLUS a judge from overseas.

To a man/woman of them, every last one, INCLUDING the breeders/owners/competitors of Morgans, agreed that while they loff their Morgans for what they do *over here* - they take them overseas and they get CREAMED. Look at the results: With a couple of exceptions over the decades, this ain't wrong.

Given that the Morgan IS generally the most-used horse for CDE's over here, but fails at IHP level overseas, it does seem to imply that there's something wrong with our idea of what's an "ideal" driving horse for CDEs...

FWIW at least 2 of the IHP drivers I was having dinner with (the Morgan ones ) said they would LOVE to take a shot w/ ASBs if they could find the right horse and a sponsor. Nobody was really ruling them out. By contrast, nobody was vastly enthusiastic about TBs for the reasons we've discussed before. ;)

[Happy Feet]

"Harry is the only purebred American Saddlebred in the entire United States performing, competing and winning at this level.*"

This quote was copied and pasted from the website
www.americansaddlebreddressage.com
The site at the end of Linda C's posts here about her horse.

Edited to add: Under The Harry Callahan Story, it's in bold red type really can't miss the Quote

[Happy Feet]

If you haven't already read the original posting related to CDE and Gaited horses, go down further. I started and ImaDriver responded.

I want to make clear, my remarks are all focused on DRIVING CDE, and DRIVEN DRESSAGE. More pointed at our driving Multiples. When choosing our horses, way, way back, we talked to Multiples Drivers who were experienced in years of driving horses, had successes in Competitions. Were successful at the highest possible levels, WORLD CLASS competitors in the USA and Europe. All had driven a multitude of horses over the years, tried many breeds, could be driving any breed they chose to use. All were REALLY expert in Dressage, consider it the basic for building on, to make the best CDE horse. All planned to drive Advanced with these horses.

They ALL SAID, "Standardbreds don't make it at the highest levels". They said the horse is not built to do the work needed. It actually got to be funny, how exactly the same words came out of all these different folks mouths. From one end of the country to the other, other countries, agreement on Standardbreds, racing Trotters not being able to do the best Dressage needed for winning. Other countries experts pointing at their local speedy Trotters as not being bendable as needed for Dressage. Winning Trotters have all got that same body style, long and lean, straight moving. Hungary has good local Trotters, yet they are not used in CDE or only as partbred crosses to get the bending ability. One German had been long-listed as a younger man, on the German National Dressage Team in ridden Dressage. He CERTAINLY knows how to get things out of a horse, including bending. He is one of the most condemning of Standardbreds, says they have a fencepost for a spine, just can't give you a bend. These folks have driven Morgans, all the WBs, Appy, Arab, Fjord, Lippizans, Hackney, Gelderlanders and other mixed breeds, done well with them. They learned what body is needed to win CDE.

In my experience, with a fair number of horses, you can take any of them and work VERY HARD to CHANGE them into what you want. They are not suitable for the job you need done when you start. Spend hours and years, still have the $800 horse you started with. May have $2500 or more of training in it, years of work, but won't ever sell for more than $800. You can't EVER turn a pig's ear into a silk purse, you will just have a really crabby pig's ear. Both of you try, both of you are not happy with the results or effort needed to SORTA get there. Love them all you want, horse is still NOT CAPABLE of doing that job you want. Job can be driving or any other horse discipline.

Cute looks, Baby-faced, Tiny heads, TB looks, really DO NOT MATTER TO ME when choosing a horse. Head and looks are the LAST place I look on the horse I may purchase. I start at the ground, with hooves, legs. If suitable, we move up to body, is it cabable of doing what I want? Every breed has the "average" breed body style, with some very untypical members, whom I will call freaks because they are not "Breed Normal". Often these freaks CAN do things not typical for this breed. Unfairly used as the "example" of breed diversity. Such freaks COULD NOT place in their own breed shows, wrong style horse.

Standardbred norm is long and lean, they go the very fastest. Ribs sticking out interfere with how the stifle passes the body, slows them down. Real Breeders DO NOT breed losers, they sell or give them away. If horse can't make time on the track, earn money, he goes on elsewhwere. Foals have to show promise of speed, not just a bloodline, to be kept until they can race. Those are the cold, hard facts of racing.

You can shop at rescues if you like. Many folks do, find horses they like and get along with. There are a lot of horses left over from both racing industries. I don't look for my horses there. I don't want to redo, make over, someone else's training. I don't want these breed styles because they are physically unable to do what I want from them without a lot of grief for me and them.

I shop for a body style horse who is EASILY CAPABLE of doing the work I want done. I expect to have horse compete at high levels. I expect horse to be as GOOD or better, than the better ridden Dressage horses, not the lowest level competitors. His body style should make any Dressage EASY for him to do, parts fall into place when collected or extended. This is not hard work for him, it all comes together smoothly as his training progresses. He says, "Ok, got that. What next?" He enjoys his jobs.

There is not WORK on my part in training him. I am not forcing him to do things that are difficult, like bending, collection, suspension. Horse poorly built may be able to do parts of that in play, but it is difficult for him to sustain form over time needed in competitions. You can love him, doesn't matter because love STILL does not aid him in bending or collection. I can LOVE a Draft cross, that will not make him recover faster after the Marathon phase, give him more manuverability in Hazards. He is what he is made. You can't CHANGE HIS BODY!! Deluding yourself is silly, sure is a waste of your training time trying to re-make him into something he is not. Pushing can hurt him, body won't hold up to forced frame in work. He is no fun to work with, so neither of you have any enjoyment when you go out to work. May make you really discouraged, give up CDE hopes.

We get the horses out to have a GOOD TIME, each and every time we use them. We are not going to force horses to perform when they don't enjoy it. 95% of the time we go out, things are enjoyable, smooth, fun. Everyone has off day, maybe we get a few more than others on here, using 4 horses each outing. They can take turns with stuff. We like them, they appear to have a good time as well, not difficult in any things we request of them. If we had a poor outing 60% of the time, this is NO FUN, something needs severe changes.

Standardbreds can be nice driving horses for pleasure uses. WA has said she knows some nice ridden Dressage ones. I know some real enjoyable ones, used in family driving, casual settings. There are probably some driven ones I don't know, doing CDE. I would not choose the Standardbreds for myself and my uses, or point anyone towards them, who wanted to be a player in CDE. Coaching folks love STBs, easy to match, good road speeds when out cruising around, handle a load just fine. Amish have used STBs for many years, rely on them. It is nice to have places to handle giving them away, but they are not the breed for me, not even free.

As a driver you need clear vision of your own wants and needs in a horse. Knowing your aims, goals at the start, will help prevent you picking wrong choices, less suitable body styles, way-back in the beginning of looking at horses. You may like a breed, start there, yet don't let it blind you to poor specimans or that breed may not be best for your needs. Even picking the best body for your driving uses, sometimes a horse just doesn't work out. You need to back up, maybe let him go to a more suitable home, choose another horse to continue with if you really want to reach your goals. Few folks get to the high point or goal they set, without changing horses along the way. You are learning each time out competing, skills should improve steadily. Horse may not be capable now, since the skills bar is being raised.

Do read some of the CDE winning lists of drivers, see the breeds they drive. What levels are they at? What are higher levels of horse breeds used and winning? Most multiple Drivers have several animals to swap in and out. They look for similar body types for easy matching in stride, movements. Hard to keep 4-6 going well at all times so spares are fit. One off horse, takes out the whole Team in soundness. No one gets to play. Multiples play at the very highest levels, extremely competitive, don't settle for "pretty good" in Dressage or movements from their horses. Our goal it to play up there, we need capable horses to do that. Maybe we will make it. At least you aim for it! None of the Multiples folks go out expecting to get anything less than First Place!!



GOODHORS
What we were told by higher level Multiples drivers, was that Standardbreds take too much work to get needed excellent results in Dressage. They are lovely horses, but long, lean body style is against them.

Both Standardbreds and Orlovs, are built for speed, bred the fastest to the fastest, got the great speed they are known for. This speed is attained going in straight moving ways, not bending, flexing, allows the huge overreach of the driving rear end. The best ones have a more straight, even rigid, spinal carriage in motion.

Stiff spine makes it VERY hard for them to be bending, flexing, while going forward. Not bred for bendable body. I have huge respect for the drivers who gave us this opinion. Heck, one of them showed an Appy at the World Pairs and WON!! Not a breed prejudice thing. Those guys will drive what wins.

So even though Standardbreds are very capable in pulling carriages, often kindly horses, very available, they take a lot of personal work, to get bendable. You must continue to work on the Dressage aspects, to keep them capable of scoring reasonably. I don't know any who score VERY well, but could be missing some good ones. If horse is your one and only, has you to put in the extra time and work, he might be one like WA talks about. Most Standardbreds just can't get the good scores. They are just not capable of moving the way judges want to see, not his fault, but his speed breeding.

More of the Driver needing to pick the correct body style, able to do what you want. Driving Standardbreds would seem to be a "natural" in CDE, but they are far from the most common breed used. If a horse can't do a good scoring Dressage, it will hurt in the other sections. Raw speed is not really that beneficial on Marathon, since too early is penalized like being too late. Horse needs to be bendable for Hazards and Cones, so his job is easier.
GOODHORS


Wow GoodHors I totally dissagree with you as to standardbreds and dressage. If you are talking about Standardbreds off the track, and are retraining them to be ridden, yes you may have to work much harder to get an older horse to become more bendable. But a youngster Standardbred who has not gone to the track is a completely different story. Even so,we had adopted a standardbred off the track, and he could turn on a dime, jump up and buck and twist like a snake. He was so bendable in fact he was too much for what we wanted and we gave him back to the adoption program. We adopted another one at four months from a racing breeding farm and trained him to carriage drive. Guess what, he didn't like to drive! As a four year old we gave him to someone else in the program that rode dressage, and within a month he was bringing home ribbons!
What a shame that people write off a breed as "unbendable", when there are so many loving Standardbreds doomed to go from the track to the Amish, where they are just a car to someone, and could instead be adopted into a loving home as someone's special horse. If you haven't been around the Standardbred breed recently, I can tell you that the old "slat sided" Standardbred has been replaced by very Thoroughbred looking Standardbreds, beautiful horses, many also look like Morgans, ours did. Every breed has individuals who are not talented and athletic, but if you are educated and competant as a trainer, you can get most horses to bend. After that, it's the combination of horse and rider that can continue on to higher levels in a sport, like dressage. As much talk as there is about it, and interest in it, most people who compete in dressage, do so at the lower levels, and never move up to the higher levels. There are many breeds competeing in dressage at lower levels, and they all do well. Don't write off an entire breed like that. It's usually the trainer or rider that lacks the knowledge to teach a horse to bend, not that the horse is incaple of it.
Give a horse a break. Standardbreds are willing and eager to please you, they are bred for it, or they wouldn't be willing to race till they drop.
by the way the website for the Standardbred Retirement Foundation is www.adoptahorse.org Go down the home page and see what today's Standardbred can do, and how versatile they are, and how gorgeous they look.
IMADRIVER



Most of what I see written here about choices as CDE horses is about the breeds ability or inablility for dressage. Since I do know a bit about ridden dressage I thought I would post somethings pertaining to the ablility or inablility to certain breeds for dressage. As I have seen posted here many times it seems that CDE (at any level) are won or lost in the dressage. Sorry to have taken the subject soo "off course"....

[lindac]

"Harry is the only purebred American Saddlebred in the entire United States performing, competing and winning at this level.*"

This quote was copied and pasted from the website
www.americansaddlebreddressage.com
The site at the end of Linda C's posts here about her horse.

Edited to add: Under The Harry Callahan Story, it's in bold red type really can't miss the Quote

He is the only pure ASB showing at this level in the US at this point in time . There have been others 20 years or more ago. That's a whole generation ago. I didn't say "ever" to have performed at this level.
If it makes you feel better I will change the wording and thanks for giving me the idea of having a historical page on ASB Dressage. I can start with Tom Bass showing the Saddlebred mare Belle Beach in High School classes in the 1890's. :)

http://www.audrain.org/irwin/achs_files/fsh184.jpg

[Thomas_1]

they take them overseas and they get CREAMED. Look at the results: With a couple of exceptions over the decades, this ain't wrong.

Given that the Morgan IS generally the most-used horse for CDE's over here, but fails at IHP level overseas, it does seem to imply that there's something wrong with our idea of what's an "ideal" driving horse for CDEs... I started to post something to that effect this morning and thought I'd better not for fear of getting stoned!

[War Admiral]

I started to post something to that effect this morning and thought I'd better not for fear of getting stoned!

No, I'm fiiiine with that, b/c here is what - as a NON-IHP driver - I really don't get: as a newbie, you go to ANY driving trainer here, including all the IHP ones, and they are going to recommend you consider Morgans if you're wanting to drive.

Nothing against the breed - and I do know them well; I grew up near Vermont which at that time was the Morgan bastion of America - everybody in my small town owned them, rode them, drove them, and I took many of my early lessons on 'em. And they are nice horses.

BUT: To me they are a very nice "utilitarian" horse, kinda like the QH, which can *do* a lot of different disciplines, up to a certain point, and do them capably/honestly. And an uber-competent whip can turn in an exceptional performance with a possibly average Morgan (as we've seen). But they are just not *my* idea of what I would want to try to move up the levels with. So why do they keep getting rammed down our throats as the ideal driving horse when even the IHP drivers who drive them admit that once you get to international levels, it isn't true? :confused:

I remain thoroughly unconvinced that WBs are the only way to go - I get tired of hearing it to be honest - I think it's the most successful marketing scam ever perpetrated. And I freely admit that driving as a discipline takes more bone and substance than MOST TBs and ASBs have. But if I were seriously looking to move up the levels on an American-bred horse, those are the two breeds I'd be looking at. I'd be trying hard to find the "exceptional" ones. And they are out there if you ferret around.

[Thomas_1]

I remain thoroughly unconvinced that WBs are the only way to go Do you mean warmblood breeds or warmblood types?

- I get tired of hearing it to be honest - I think it's the most successful marketing scam ever perpetrated. Well get off your butt and go prove them wrong by competing with a hot blood. Please don't bother with a cold blood though as that would be a waste of money ;)

And as you know I competed with hotbloods as well as warmbloods

[ImaDriver]

:)Renae, I do not have any prejudice aginst DHHs. In fact I actually admire them. But in singles over the last 10 years that I have been competing, in singles, we see them come out for CDE, do very well in dressage, but have slower times in hazards. I have witnessed this, that is not a predjudice against a breed. I do not believe in prejudice and bad mouthing any breed ! I do feel some breeds are better suited to some diciplines than others, some breeds are very highly specialized. I am not living in a dreamworld, because I think some breeds can be more versatile than thought of. If I think a breed is overlooked or prejudiced against unfairly, I will defend them. I think both Saddlebreds and Standardbred, unlike DHHs, are prejudiced against unfailrly. As to Saddlebreds, you know from my posts on other forums that I am not someone who promotes artificiality in Saddlebreds, I didn't deserve that one. I do not like negative energy directed at any person or breed. I am the first to admit I am fiercely loyal, and I will take the thrown stones and the low blows, and come back again because I am loyal to horses and people that I think of as worthwhile. I do not read statistics, I report on what I see and have experienced, I am out there at the CDE's competing.

I should have distinguished between singles and four in Hands, where we do see them at the shows I have competed in, and as a team they make up for the higher action when covering distances. DHH's are bred for higher action than most breeds, and they do have a loftier gait than a Saddlebred does naturaly. I think if you took 2 babies with good action for their breed and compared them the DHH would have the higher action. A Saddlebred that is shown in the traditional way is trained to make their action higher. The Renai Registry, National Show Horse, and Dutch Harness Horse use Saddlebreds to cross into their breeds. So does the Georgian Grande(not a true breed yet I don't think?) and probably other breeds I'm not aware of.
There must be something good about Saddlebreds that many other people think so highly of them, just as I do!

PS: As to Morgans, again I point out that the ADS has only recently aligned its rules to conform to the FEI rules. When I competed in Canada, the judges and TD's there were European, and explaned to us that some of the hazards that we thought were tough, were just average ability in Europe. Many of our shows are trying to update and change both courses and hazards to European levels. It would make sense then that Morgans showing and training here are going to be more challenged in CDEs in Europe. Even so, if Scott Monroe had not turned over in a hazard with his Morgan Shadow, we may have had a Morgan score very high. But that's what makes CDE's so exciting, scores change from day to day!

[Thomas_1]

do not believe in prejudice and bad mouthing any breed ![/U] I do feel some breeds are better suited to some diciplines than others, some breeds are very highly specialized. I am not living in a dreamworld, because I think some breeds can be more versatile than thought of. If I think a breed is overlooked or prejudiced against unfairly, I will defend them. :confused: Had to say that I find such statements absolutely absurd and bizarre in the extreme. The whole point of "breeds" and breeding and animal husbandry is that man has intervened and purposely developed a specific type of equine for a specific purpose. Its not "prejudice". Its not "unfair". Its what breeding for purpose and type is about.

I do not like negative energy directed at any person or breed. I am the first to admit I am fiercely loyal, and I will take the thrown stones and the low blows, and come back again because I am loyal to horses and people that I think of as worthwhile. For goodness sakes. What anthropomorphic twaddle! Its slightly different having an irrational prejudice because of a person's ethnicity, culture or creed and expressing a fact about what is the best (or worst) breed of equine for doing a certain job. Trust me, my shetland ponies will be absolutely rubbish at CDE and my Dutch Warmbloods or Welsh Section D's will never in a month of Sundays win a steeplechase. They're too slow, too fat and lack the courage and agility. And you know if I tell them this, they won't care less, because they're just horses!

There must be something good about Saddlebreds that many other people think so highly of them, just as I do! I'm sure there is and I'd be convinced they do the job they were bred and intended to do and they probably do it well.

PS: As to Morgans, again I point out that the ADS has only recently aligned its rules to conform to the FEI rules. When I competed in Canada, the judges and TD's there were European, and explaned to us that some of the hazards that we thought were tough, were just average ability in Europe. Many of our shows are trying to update and change both courses and hazards to European levels. It would make sense then that Morgans showing and training here are going to be more challenged in CDEs in Europe. So are you saying their poor performance is down to training or down to their inherant ability and potential because of their form and type?

Even so, if Scott Monroe had not turned over in a hazard with his Morgan Shadow, we may have had a Morgan score very high. But that's what makes CDE's so exciting, scores change from day to day! Now I think that's what makes a poor example. Its like saying "if my pony could only have managed to stay upright, he'd have won Blenheim Horse Trials or scored very high"

[War Admiral]

Imadriver makes a good point - that when considering the ideal IHP horse for CDEs, we definitely need to distinguish between ideal for SINGLES and ideal for MULTIPLES. I can definitely see WBs being best suited for multiples - TBs after all are not noted for their "team spirit"! :lol: WBs do seem to do better with the "security blanket" of another horse or horses to work alongside. But I've also heard some fairly hair-raising tales of situations where the whole team panicked...

I don't really have enough knowledge of DHH to speak to one side or the other of that discussion. We don't have any down here and I've never had the chance to see or work with one - I just drool over the pics. ;)

[Thomas_1]

My best fei pair were t/b and anglo arab ..... or double trouble. ;)

And I'd a pair of t/b's and a team of them.

The advantage of multiples is that you'd be REALLY unlucky to get 2 doing something stupid at the same time and so you can use one to countermand the other or against each other.

Furthermore you use their competitive spirit and so they compete against each other which allows for much faster times through hazards.

[ASB Stars]

Thomas:

Could you please offer the pro's and con's as you believe them to exist in both the horses you feel are proving to be excellent in CDE competition, and then offer us the specific issues you personally have found with the American Saddlebred?

I am quite sure that you have experience in the breeds that you have mentioned, but, it is possible that there is something that can be learned on both sides of the fence, and pond, on this issue.

Thank you for your time.... :yes:

[Thomas_1]

If you do a search through my old postings and in the archived threads, you'll see I've posted extensively on this subject previously and extensively on specific breeds from time to time.

[ASB Stars]

at any threads where the word "Saddlebred" had been used, where you had posted, and I could not find the answer to my question. So, it is with due respect that I repeat my request. :yes:

I did find this quote of yours entertaining:

"Or do you now have it in your mind that I think all T/B's are junk because of what I said about T/B's NOT generally making good driving horses?"

I kind of thought you could have been speaking of another breed. :winkgrin:

and this one...

"Interesting take. You have opinions, I have knowledge and experience. There's a difference."

You aren't alone.... :lol:

[mares tails]

Okay, we're sliding down that slippery slope here...

How's this for a thread summary:

"I don't see any/many examples of breed X winning at the upper levels of sport A."

"Breed Y is the best breed."

"I don't see any/many examples of breed Y in sport A."

"But what about sport B?"

...

:eek:

[hitchinmygetalong]

I remain thoroughly unconvinced that WBs are the only way to go - I get tired of hearing it to be honest - I think it's the most successful marketing scam ever perpetrated. And I freely admit that driving as a discipline takes more bone and substance than MOST TBs and ASBs have. But if I were seriously looking to move up the levels on an American-bred horse, those are the two breeds I'd be looking at. I'd be trying hard to find the "exceptional" ones. And they are out there if you ferret around.

Well, let's talk a bit about Chester Weber (http://www.chesterweber.com/index.html), shall we?

Chester grew up on a large, successful Thoroughbred breeding farm (http://www.liveoakstud.com/images/liveoakstud.com/home.aspx?contentname=home%20page&news=1).

You could argue that he had the best of the best at his disposal when he decided to pursue competitive driving. He also had the *ahem* financial means to buy the best, hire the best, and work with the best.

But, what does he do? He goes with the "marketing scam" du jour, "warmbloods" (http://www.chesterweber.com/horses.html). He could have gone with Thoroughbreds - heaven knows, he had hundreds at his disposal. Now, why do you suppose he DIDN'T? I can't read his mind, but I think it would be a safe guess that he didn't feel they were suitable to his purposes.

You WILL find an individual Thoroughbred that might succeed, but it's going to be rare as hens' teeth. You WILL find ASB's competing in CDE's, but they are far, far outnumbered by the more "traditional" CDE breeds. This may change as breeders work through the generations breeding specifically for a horse that fits the CDE "mold" - but right now, they are just not out there.

[ASB Stars]

You know, guys, all I did was repeat the request that WA had early on- which was to discuss any hands on experience that Thomas had with American Saddlebreds.

Why? Because he IS a wealth of information. However, there are fewer than 3000 American Saddlebreds being registered in the United States per year, and there aren't a bunch in the United Kingdom. In order for anyone to speak, with authority, about anything- a breed of horse, in this case- any one of us expects that a frame of reference with the subject be a requisite.

In addition to hands on experience with ASBs, I asked for pros and cons of the breeds that Thomas would offer as having competed successfully in "FEI CDE's" as he phrased it.

Obviously, I am looking for what my breed of choice might have- and not have- as compared to whatever model is mentioned.

This isn't meant to be nasty- it is meant to educational- on all fronts.

This: http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t18/bryndewinesfarm/Zonicones.jpg
is one of mine at a driving clinic- the first time he had ever seen cones. So, I do have an interest, and a perfunctory background, in playing about at this stuff. I am not simply trying to create havoc!

[ImaDriver]

Had to say that I find such statements
absolutely absurd and bizarre in the extreme.
The whole point of "breeds"
and breeding and animal husbandry is that
man has intervened and purposely developed
a specific type of equine for a specific purpose.
Its not "prejudice". Its not "unfair". Its what breeding
for purpose and type is about.

Thomas you just reiterrated what I said. Some breeds are highly specific to a job. A Belgian is so physically highly stylized for what it is bred for, it would not be as capable of doing many different things. However, a Thoroughbred, a Standardbred, a Saddlebred and a Warm Blood are more similar than they are different, and capable of doing a variety of sports, and do them well.
I think Thomas you have decided to not like anything I say, no matter what it is I say, as a matter of fact, I'm sure when you rebuke your next chosen quote from this post, it will be to tell me I am wrong about always being wrong! You make me laugh! :winkgrin:
So are you saying their poor performance is down to training or down to their inherant ability and potential because of their form and type?

I would say that historically our courses have not had as high a difficulty level. I think most horseman would understand what I mean by that.
Now I think that's what makes a poor example. Its like saying "if my pony could only have managed to stay upright, he'd have won Blenheim Horse Trials or scored very high"

I think it was clear to most readers that if he had NOT turned over he would have had a high overall score. Having a turnover means being eliminated, so no score at all. However up to that point he was close to winning his division, and with a great dressage score.
As some one on this topic asked earlier, "what does dressage have to do with choosing a CDE horse?",
those of us who compete know that a good dressage score helps you towards a better score and sets the tone for your marathon, which follows.You may be able, as a talented driver, to push your horse through hazards and cones, but you can not fake an educated horse, educated for the complexities of dressage."

While Thomas is busy cutting and pasting my quotes for his response, as I am his most delightful target lately, I will be enjoying getting ready for this most happy holiday coming soon. Bye posters for now!!

[Thomas_1]

^I think you flatter yourself (or are paranoid) if you think I'm targeting your posts. If you've ever posted on other threads or if I've ever specifically responded to something you've said elsewhere, then I've got to say that I've not given it specific attention and have absolutely no recollection.

[ASB Stars]

I am sincerely hoping that the above post does no refer to my prior post. Really.

However, I am still waiting for some address of my earlier request, and, honestly, I do not feel I am being difficult. I am looking for edification here- answers.

Please?

[hitchinmygetalong]

I am sincerely hoping that the above post does no refer to my prior post. Really.

However, I am still waiting for some address of my earlier request, and, honestly, I do not feel I am being difficult. I am looking for edification here- answers.

Please?

Is this thread specifically about Thomas and his hands-on experience with Saddlebreds?

No.

Is this thread specifically about Saddlebreds and driving?

No.

If you TRULY want an answer to your question, try sending Thomas a PM.

If you TRULY want to discuss SADDLEBREDS and their suitability to driving and CDE's, then start another thread with that being your topic.

You keep trying to turn this into a debate about a specific breed when the original post was more about suitability of various breeds for CDE's.

[ASB Stars]

Darling Hitch. I did not try to turn this into anything. I was late to the dance. However, I have noted in the past that when someone makes a representation- on threads where you have interest- you do not think twice about asking them to explain themselves, and offer facts relative to their comments. In addition to my patience, I have been undeniably courteous.

The bottom line is that here on COTH, I have noted that we are not usually tolerant of those who dance in with a blythe opinion- about anything people actually care about- and are able to continue to dance about, with opinions based upon...what? We want to learn- we want the facts, M'am.

I have actually, if you re-read my post- asked for information about those breeds that Thomas, in his expert opinion (and reading his profile, he has a right to an expert opinion) excell in this sport, and the pros, and cons, of each. Not so hard- is it? That is what this thread was about- right?

[Thomas_1]

I am sincerely hoping that the above post does no refer to my prior post. Really.

However, I am still waiting for some address of my earlier request, and, honestly, I do not feel I am being difficult. I am looking for edification here- answers.

Please? Erm No it responded to the poster immediately prior to my reply!

I'm not sure what you're specifically looking for additional to what I've already said.

You asked some questions which I took to be rhetorical and somewhat superfluous to the thread and about my specific experience with Saddlebreds.

I didn't think this thread was just about that breed and I believe that I've nothing further to add with regard to their suitability for this specific purpose.

In searching for my comments on breeds that do consistently well at HDT, I'd suggest that using the word "saddlebred" would limit what you find. And indeed you've more chance of finding a flying pig than finding a posting where I've said a saddlebred would be a fantastic first option consideration in chosing a breed to compete with.

I also think my personal exeprience with them is of no relevance. I don't need to own a shetland pony to know its not going to win the Grand National.

If I think I've anything to add to a thread, then I'll chose to post and/or reply. If not, I won't.

[hitchinmygetalong]

I did not try to turn this into anything. <snip>
I have actually, if you re-read my post- asked for information about those breeds that Thomas, in his expert opinion (and reading his profile, he has a right to an expert opinion) excell in this sport, and the pros, and cons, of each. Not so hard- is it? That is what this thread was about- right?

Do you mean this post?

Could you please offer the pro's and con's as you believe them to exist in both the horses you feel are proving to be excellent in CDE competition, and then offer us the specific issues you personally have found with the American Saddlebred?Or maybe this post?
at any threads where the word "Saddlebred" had been used, where you had posted, and I could not find the answer to my question. So, it is with due respect that I repeat my request.Or perhaps you were referring to this post?
You know, guys, all I did was repeat the request that WA had early on- which was to discuss any hands on experience that Thomas had with American Saddlebreds.It certainly looks to me as if you are asking about a specific breed, which is well and good but your questions might better be suited to a new thread. Just a suggestion.

[ASB Stars]

Yep. ALL of those posts. They are mine, and they followed an ongoing discussion where Hitch had already chimed in- apparently specifically because American Saddlebreds were being mentioned. Or maybe because Thomas had made a statement for which no foundation has been made. In any event, the OP started this thread about ALL breeds, and mentioned everything down to Appaloosas- this was a discussion, I thought, about all breeds, and their relative attributes for the purpose of competing in CDEs- right?

Then Hitch- well before I saw this thread- offers that we should do a thread specifically about ASBs, as they had been mentioned. However, since the thread was about all breeds- why isn't this a good platform to continue the discussion? Is there a reason why the ASB shouldn't be part of the discussion?

At this point, it is clear that, in spite of numerous courteous requests- from myself, as well as others, Thomas is not capable of supporting his negative claims regarding the American Saddlebred. Thats fine. I don't really think he needs bodyguarding. But perhaps you folks know better than I.

[Thomas_1]

Lets turn this round. As its clearly you that's trying to prove something, just provide examples of American Saddlebreds competing successfully at fei Horse Driving Trials.

If you can't do that, then provide examples of ASB's that are winning repeatedly at national level competition.

Do that and you'll clearly be able to prove that I'm talking tosh. Until then your insinuations are just smoke and mirrors.

[ASB Stars]

More sheer brilliance- but then, that is to be expected! This thread was about potential- you know, the possibilities.

Thomas, you make it clear that you are an expert in the driving field. Then, you arbitrarily shoot down the POSSIBILITY that an American Saddlebred could be successful at CDEs. No reasoning- just the blanket statement. You have been politely asked by at least two parties on this thread to define what you believe to be the best horses for this purpose, and their pros and cons. Obviously, those of us that asked are looking to see what our horses have to offer to this pursuit. You have made it perfectly clear that we do not deserve the benefit of your expertise in this matter. Oh, but we should take your word as gospel- right?

Please. I know a good bit about American Saddlebreds, but nothing, for example, about Suffolk Punchs, or Cleveland Bays, or Welsh Cobs, save what I have read. But I certainly would not go about disparaging them- if someone decided to tell me that they were doing, for example, dressage with them. Are they going to be a world beater? How the hell do I know? It is the journey, for most, that is the point.

And your crystal ball works a whole lot better than mine.

[Thomas_1]

Thomas, you make it clear that you are an expert in the driving field. Then, you arbitrarily shoot down the POSSIBILITY that an American Saddlebred could be successful at CDEs. No reasoning- just the blanket statement. You clearly have a some paranoid obsession about the breed and what I've said about it and to such an extent that you've actually managed to invent something I've never said!

You have been politely asked by at least two parties on this thread to define what you believe to be the best horses for this purpose, and their pros and cons. And if you looked through the archives you'll find numerous postings on this topic by me and others who compete.

But to help here is an overview:

Cleveland Bay - one of the oldest breeds in Britain and ideally suited to all types of carriage work. Pure Clevelands of the old type can be rather large but for competitive driving they've been successfully crossed with lighter horses to produce something more successful. Prince Philip competed for many years with Cleveland cross Oldenburgs. They looked just like Clevelands except they were slightly lighter in the legs and consequently have better paces for dressage and also for speed work through hazards.

Hanovarian - extremely successful - a German carriage horse similar in stamp to the Cleveland bay. Fantastic for dressage work - very showy and also very agile sports horses.

Lippizaner - again VERY successful. Gyorgy Bardos on the world championships with a team of them in 1978 and 1980. Intelligent and respond well to training and with showy action combined with speed across country.

Hungarian Warmbloods - Lean leggy animals whose main attribute is the ability to cover the ground VERY quickly. Many of the strains have Lippizaner blood in them and that gives them style.

Trakehaner - VERY successful at international competition. VERY good looking and always well bred (their breeding is carefully controlled by the state).

Oldenburg - popularised in the UK as a successful HDT horse and competed fei by many but initially by Sir John Miller

Dutch Warmblood - smart and a little lighter than the gelderlanders or Friesians. Frequently been driven by world champions. In my competition days by Tjerd Velstra (twice w/c) and by Ijsbrand Chardon.

Friesians - high knee action and with imposing presence and impressive action. Again several times driven by World Champions.


Welsh Ponies - By far the most popular and successful breed of competition driving pony and horse. The A's and B's are stylish in appearance and move like miniature horses (arab influence in the breed). So they're impressive in the dressage arena and furthermore are very fast through the hazards. But their size can limit their use to lightweight drivers unless they're in pairs or teams.

The D's (cobs) - often coming in best for HDT at around 15 to 15.3 mark. They're smart and sturdy and strong and have extravagant action. The eye catching movement is an advantage in dressage and their sturdiness carries them well through the rigorous marathon section. George Bowman competes with Welsh Cobs and became national champion with them.

Suffolk punches are not for HDT at all. They're a heavy cold blood for farm work. Slow and cumbersome

Dartmoors - one of the smallest British natives and usually about 12 hands. Fantastic driving ponies, but due to their size they've only been successful and at high level in competition when in pairs or teams.

Exmoor - a good strong pony that's had considerable success in driving. Again agile and quick and with a showy eager action that means he'll be a solid all rounder performer

Fells - by far the most consistently successful driving pony in competition. A sturdy pony bred for pack and draft work in northern England has the strength and stamina necessary for gruelling cross country. Though basically not a natural dressage pony, if training is started early enough they're willing and will master the different movements required to perform a perfectly respectable test.

[ASB Stars]

Thomas. First and foremost- THANK YOU for that delightful overview! :yes:

I have a question for you- are the modern day hazards, and distances, and more difficult than they were when the Lipps won? My reason for asking is that we had a lovely Lipp stallion that was used at the Equestrian Center that I ran. I did my very first counter changes, and tempis, on the lovely old gentleman- Pluto Majestico- but he did not strike me as a horse that would be particularly fast, or able to keep very fit.

As I admitted before, I am a novice at this- even as an observer. Do you think a modern day team of Lipps- or even a single- would be as competitive as those you mention above?

[Thomas_1]

In truth I know that the hazards have become much easier. Absolutely no different to ridden horse trials, the "safety factor" has come into play and its a heck of a lot easier and safer now. As an old man, I find them a doddle now! And I know VERY well that I stopped competing when I did because my reaction time wasn't as good and it was a heck of a lot harder then. Prince Philip, George Bowman, Barry Capstick, Fred Pendlebury, Pat Cooper, Colin Allen, Alan Todd, Claudia Bunn, Clare Wigmore, John Parker, John Attenborough are all my era and have all said they wouldn't still be competing at the level they are at their age if the courses hadn't got easier.

My old competition photos frighten the pants off me!

And by example, this wasn't even in a hazard, it was just the course!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/Driving/hazards0014.jpg

Indeed they even changed their name from "hazards" to "obstacles" :winkgrin:

Obviously I can't speak for what its like in the USA. As mentioned earlier in the thread, its a newer sport over there and I'm of the view that the marathon courses are a heck of a lot easier there and more like our club level.

[ASB Stars]

HOLY- er- that was a scary picture- but the look on that womans face is PRICELESS. Please tell us you married her- she deserves no less for her loyalty! :uhoh:

What type of critter is doing it's very best imitation of that scene in "The Man From Snowy River", except pulling a Meadowbrook?

Interesting about the hazards. David O'Connor referred to cross country obstacles as "puzzles" for the horses, at a talk he gave to the ASHA Sport Horse Committee, several years ago. I would guess these are the same theory- asking the horse and rider/driver to answer the questions posed by the obstacle.

[Thomas_1]

I was already married to her! Nearly caused a divorce that day though ;) It was VERY slippy.

Its a Welsh Section D and to a 2 wheeler of my own build. Probably about one of the first metal vehicles I made and competed with.

I'm afraid I can't agree that its a puzzle for the horse. Puzzle for the driver maybe and a challenge of speed agility and bravery for the horse but personally speaking I don't want a horse doing too much figuring out for himself. I want them to trust that I'll not ask them to do anything wreckless or to their detriment and to give it an honest go.

[yellowpony]

Hello,
Obviously I am late coming to this conversation, but having spent the summer at several international driving shows I felt qualified to comment on the breeds seen..

At both Riesenbeck and Beekbergen, which are top shows for teams and pairs of horses we saw mostly Warmbloods and Lippizans. Dutch Harness Horses are very popular - top drivers such as Boyd Exell, Mieke van Tergouw, Fritz Grupe, Keady Cadwell, and Chester Weber are all driving them... Dobrovitz even has one in the lead of his team as well. I believe Chardon and Koos de Ronde have regular riding type KWPN .. not sure. Lippizans are very popular - the Lazar brothers are reigning world pair champions.. Benjamin Aillaud and Hank van der Wiel also have Lippizans... Of course there are exceptions, one of the fastest pairs in Europe is a pair of paints (not sure of their breeding).

As far as ponies go ... Welsh won gold in every individual category at this years pony worlds... Top German driver Tobias Bucker drives a team of Welsh as well. German Riding Ponies are also very popular... I think in the ponies it is a little bit easier to have a "different" breed just because the worlds are so new, not as many people are as serious about it.

Obviously, single is the hardest job in the driving sport, and it does take a special individual to do well, and move great, and stand up to the wear and tear. So I think more breeds exist here as well.

I would have to disagree on the comment that marathons are easier. I think they are much less of a race to survive and more technical test the skill of the driver. Less big gallops and more turns, more test of the driver.

The courses in the USA vary depending on the venue. I think you would find shows such as Sunshine State, Live Oak and the Laurels , just to name a few are very much on par with some of the international shows. Other shows have much less support and thus a harder time building courses like those in Europe...sometimes getting enough entries is a problem.

Just my opinion!

[Thomas_1]

Of course there are exceptions, one of the fastest pairs in Europe is a pair of paints (not sure of their breeding). Do you mean coloured cobs.

I would have to disagree on the comment that marathons are easier. I think they are much less of a race to survive and more technical test the skill of the driver. Less big gallops and more turns, more test of the driver. That's absolutely not my experience at all. Albeit in Europe. Neither as I said earlier is it the experience or opinion of friends that have competed for the duration and level required to make such opinion.

I think the main difference now is the fact that they're actually much less of a test and that's why so many "oldies" are able to continue to compete despite decline in reaction and response and agility etc etc.

I'd be most interested to know how long you've competed and where and what level etc and hence how comes we've such different experience. Though perhaps that would be taking this thread off track ;) :yes:

[yellowpony]

No, I don't mean colored cobs. I have it on good authority they are in fact Dutch Warmbloods.

I compete FEI level, and have competed internationally, won a team medal. As well as having really fabulous opportunities to work and listen to some of the top drivers in our sport.

You are certainly welcome to your opinion - but if it is so much easier now - why other than Bowman are none of those drivers at the top of the sport? I don't even know who some of them are? And what about all the people who have been working so hard to build courses and help our sport evolve? Are you saying the FEI course designers don't know what they are doing?

I would also say the English are a bit behind Europe as well - after all they are the only country to still run 5 section marathons.

I guess I don't understand why you feel the need to be so rude when someone has a differing opinion - we are all entitled to them.

This is why I don't post on these groups... guess I shouldn't have tried to share infos.

[Renae]

No, I don't mean colored cobs. I have it on good authority they are in fact Dutch Warmbloods.


That would be logical, the Samber line pinto Dutch Warmbloods are very popular with some people.

[Thomas_1]

I guess I don't understand why you feel the need to be so rude when someone has a differing opinion - we are all entitled to them. I guess I don't understand why you think asking questions is being rude to someone who has a different opinion :confused:

This is why I don't post on these groups... guess I shouldn't have tried to share infos. Neither do I understand why you're getting in a huff. I don't think you really "shared" anything significantly different to what I "shared".
No, I don't mean colored cobs. I have it on good authority they are in fact Dutch Warmbloods. Ah so you remember which breed now. So do you mean Harrie Verstappen's coloured warmbloods?

I don't even know who some of them are? Your point being?

And what about all the people who have been working so hard to build courses and help our sport evolveAre you saying the FEI course designers don't know what they are doing?? No. I never said that and never implied that.

I would also say the English are a bit behind Europe as well - after all they are the only country to still run 5 section marathons. Interesting opinion. Why do you think retaining B and C phases at National Level makes it "behind"?

[yellowpony]

I'm not the first person to think that you are rude. Perhaps you should reread your posts before you post.

I know the breed now because I asked a friend to make sure. I didn't want to post misinformation for people who are actually wanting to know.

When you run B and C sections your ponies are more tired, hence slower hazards. Then the drivers go to an international show and they are not competitive.

That is all.

[yellowpony]

That would be logical, the Samber line pinto Dutch Warmbloods are very popular with some people.

Yeah I have pics somewhere, they are cute horses.

[LostFarmer]

Yellow pony,
Thomas is Thomas and as an Englishman has NEVER made a mistake. Once you understand this and have the appropriate salt grains ready, he really is quite knowledgeable. But the nature of the English is that they tend to be a little terse in stating their superiority. (My father is English.) ;) Don't run off now I am learning from your debate. LF

[grayarabpony]

Why is it that the Morgans have not done well in international competition?

[pricestory]

Shelly Temple's Morgan, Cooper did very well at the last Pony Worlds.

[Thomas_1]

I'm not the first person to think that you are rude. Perhaps you should reread your posts before you post. I'm sure you're not and I bet I'm the only person to think you have a chip on your shoulder and/or are passive aggressive.

To be honest, I don't know why you've got such a bug up your backside and purely and simply because I happen to have said that I think that the marathon stage has got easier and guessed the horses whose breed you didn't know. The fact I have a different opinion and experience to you doesn't mean I'm rude.

I know the breed now because I asked a friend to make sure. I didn't want to post misinformation for people who are actually wanting to know. I personally find your postings difficult to understand in terms of the points you are trying to make:

You say you don't know a breed, I ask you if it was coloured cobs, you attack me for being wrong! duhhhh!

When you run B and C sections your ponies are more tired, hence slower hazards. Then the drivers go to an international show and they are not competitive. Not necessarily nor evidentially so. You could argue that if a horse is fit to do well and qualify to do fei having done 5 phase events, that when it does 3 phase that its going to find it relatively easy.


That is all.

[Thomas_1]

Yellow pony,
Thomas is Thomas and as an Englishman has NEVER made a mistake. Once you understand this and have the appropriate salt grains ready, he really is quite knowledgeable. But the nature of the English is that they tend to be a little terse in stating their superiority. (My father is English.) ;) Don't run off now I am learning from your debate. LF

Interesting statement!

Of course there's cultural diversity and it seems to me that some folks get all uppity and offensive/defensive if you just ask them questions. In my world you ask a question because you want to know the answer and establish facts. No more and no less.

How YOU feel is nothing to do with me. If you allow yourself to think the English are superior, then that's down to you.

[yellowpony]

How am I the one with the bee in their bonnet when you are the one who took the time to respond to the same post twice?

I didn't attack you for guessing the breed, I just simply didn't know what kind of horses they were so I didn't post. If I had meant colored cobs I would have said so.

I wasn't talking about the horse having difficulty doing a 3 phase - I was talking more about the driver, their timing not being as good because the turns come up faster and the horse has more power. Not everyone can adjust as well as others, so why not just run your FEI shows how they will be run at a Worlds.

I think it is nice to appreciate the way things used to be done, but just because the sport is different now doesn't make it wrong. George Bowman has gone to KWPN horses, so he has evolved as well.

As far as breeds go, I think you have to pick the right horse for you. If you have a particular attachment to a breed, perhaps you should realize each has its strengths and weaknesses . If the horse can't do the job to the level you ask then you either have to be okay with that or switch to a breed/horse who will.

[kearleydk]

He took the words right out of my mouth again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regarding Thomas. Lf you are spot on. Surely not saying the British are superior, but I was raised hearing the expression "British and best." I know what you refer to.

Carry on.
Dick