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View Full Version : Pat Parelli Fixing Beatriz Ferrar-Salaat's Athens horse, roping her other hrs off him



slc2
Dec. 9, 2007, 09:48 AM
We were enlightened recently by Pat Parelli. Summing up, Thank God for Pat Parelli. Beatriz begged him to come and help her with a problem with her horse and he showed her the way. He also roped her other horses off this horse. All the horses benefitted greatly especially from the experience of being roped. Plus he was able to straighten out her training. After he fixed that horse then he was asked to go see GP after GP dressage horse and straighten them out too.

NoDQhere
Dec. 9, 2007, 09:54 AM
I hear the train a'commin', its rollin' round the bend, and I ain't seen the sunshine..................:eek:

Seriously, though, tell us more?????

Ginger
Dec. 9, 2007, 10:11 AM
No, please don't.

STF
Dec. 9, 2007, 10:23 AM
Im already sick to my stomach Susan, now you have made it worse!

kkj
Dec. 9, 2007, 10:24 AM
We were enlightened recently by Pat Parelli. Summing up, Thank God for Pat Parelli. Beatriz begged him to come and help her with a problem with her horse and he showed her the way. He also roped her other horses off this horse. All the horses benefitted greatly especially from the experience of being roped. Plus he was able to straighten out her training. After he fixed that horse then he was asked to go see GP after GP dressage horse and straighten them out too.

What was the problem he fixed? Where did you read this?

I had a little pony who was raised on a 2000 acres. He was never handled and they roped him to catch him. The poor thing was so tramatized, it took him like 2 years to get over that. I can't imagine what good can come out of roping your horse. Someone care to enlighten me on why you would rope a horse that you can easier catch with a halter?

slc2
Dec. 9, 2007, 10:30 AM
well i got a little early christmas present of seeing mr pat parelli. and this is what he told us. and i hear roping is MARVELOUS for horse's joint health!

SillyMe
Dec. 9, 2007, 11:08 AM
Me thinks thou doth protest too much. Why do you give this the time of day, unless you have no life. Go ride your horse and give it a rest.

FancyFree
Dec. 9, 2007, 11:14 AM
Is this for real? I'd love to hear the details.

Dave Walker
Dec. 9, 2007, 11:25 AM
Roping a horse has a number of uses. First, with a green horse it is a great way to start teaching a horse to yield to pressure while being far enough away from the horse to avoid being killed. Second, by roping the individual feet you can easily teach a green horse to pick up its feet and to yield to pressure around the feet. That is a great thing to have going for you if the horse ever gets tangled in the fence or wire. Third, if you ever plan on roping off your horse it is a way to get your horse used to ropes. You can teach a horse virtually everything it needs to know about rope handling from the ground. I certainly would rather be on the ground the first time the rope goes up under the horse's tail.

Nobody is talking about roping and hog tying a horse like a team roper would a cow. We are talking about gently roping with a soft rope in a confined area. And using a long rope so the horse never really comes up hard and fast to it. I have roped all of my horses. And I rope off of them as well. That experience sure came in handy when we were foxhunting and my horse got a piece of wire tangled around his leg. He just stood still until I untangled it. I have watched other horses struggle in a similar situation and get cut up.

So, you really shouldn't make fun of things when you don't have the experience or understand the purpose of what is going on. Or just because it is Pat Parelli. I don't buy into PP's program but he is not an idiot or a terrible horseman.

Dave

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Dec. 9, 2007, 11:28 AM
Wow. Who knew? We have two new foals at the barn and no one's thought about using ropes on them. Obviously they need to be enlightened.

I love hearing Pat Parelli trainwrecks! I say, bring it on!

hedmbl
Dec. 9, 2007, 11:55 AM
"First, with a green horse it is a great way to start teaching a horse to yield to pressure while being far enough away from the horse to avoid being killed. Second, by roping the individual feet you can easily teach a green horse to pick up its feet and to yield to pressure around the feet."

I have to say I've never felt I was in enough danger when starting young horses to be 'killed' what kind of horses are you working with? A properly started youngster is usually quite willing to do everything asked of him/her in a sane reasonable manner. I really don't see how roping a baby could lead to anything but traumatization. You don't need a rope to teach a horse how to pick up his feet, it's something they will do from birth so why complicate matters by flinging a rope around them? Not trying to attack anyone I'm just honestly confused as I've never even heard the word 'rope' mentioned in conversations about starting horses...is this really what PP preaches? Glad I never took the time to listen to him then...

~Freedom~
Dec. 9, 2007, 11:56 AM
Me thinks thou doth protest too much. Why do you give this the time of day, unless you have no life. Go ride your horse and give it a rest.

Why would a DQ like SLC even WANT to see PP?

mp
Dec. 9, 2007, 12:33 PM
Not trying to attack anyone I'm just honestly confused as I've never even heard the word 'rope' mentioned in conversations about starting horses...

I have. I've seen roping used to teach a less than submissive horse to yield when asked. The horses in question weren't wild or unhandled, they just didn't think they needed to pay attention to the human. There was nothing horrible or violent about the roping. Other than being startled, the horses didn't really get upset. It was used more like a whip -- an extension of the handler.

The catch is that the handler has to be very VERY good with a rope. Otherwise, it's a disaster waiting to happen.


I have no idea what Mr. Parelli was doing. And it sounds like slc doesn't either.

ETA -- These horses weren't babies. No one in their right mind is going to rope a foal. That's stupid.

RHdobes563
Dec. 9, 2007, 12:45 PM
Am I the ONLY one who thinks the original post was done tongue-in-cheek?

fiona
Dec. 9, 2007, 12:51 PM
First, with a green horse it is a great way to start teaching a horse to yield to pressure while being far enough away from the horse to avoid being killed.

Holey freakin' Moley!!!
What sort of pressure are you putting on a horse that you run the risk of getting killed?
Haaaaallllllooooooo!!!! Happy Athlete anyone?

fiona
Dec. 9, 2007, 12:55 PM
We were enlightened recently by Pat Parelli. Summing up, Thank God for Pat Parelli. Beatriz begged him to come and help her with a problem with her horse and he showed her the way. He also roped her other horses off this horse. All the horses benefitted greatly especially from the experience of being roped. Plus he was able to straighten out her training. After he fixed that horse then he was asked to go see GP after GP dressage horse and straighten them out too.



well i got a little early christmas present of seeing mr pat parelli. and this is what he told us. and i hear roping is MARVELOUS for horse's joint health!


So have you really lost the plot this time or humour? I can't tell.

Lisa Cook
Dec. 9, 2007, 01:02 PM
Am I the ONLY one who think's the original post was done tongue-in-cheek?

That was my impression. I'm guessing it is a completely tongue-in-cheek post that is either (or a combination of):

a.) a failed attempt at humor
b.) to get a reaction from others

~Freedom~
Dec. 9, 2007, 01:09 PM
So have you really lost the plot this time or humour? I can't tell.


A few things have been lost in this thread.

LarkspurCO
Dec. 9, 2007, 01:10 PM
Holey freakin' Moley!!!
What sort of pressure are you putting on a horse that you run the risk of getting killed?
Haaaaallllllooooooo!!!! Happy Athlete anyone?

If I may be so bold as to suggest that Dave used the word killed in the figurative sense?

Training a horse to accept pressure around the legs might be a lifesaver for him some day.

I have had a horse freak out more than once with a wire around the leg. Once out hand walking in the woods we didn't see an old piece of fence. My horse stepped into it, felt the wire around his hind foot and - literally - jumped into my lap. He was fine. I was not.

Another one of mine got his leg tangled in a wire fence and fought it and got cut up.

And recently I was trying to catch a neighbor's loose horse. He stepped into an old wire fence near the road, panicked and yanked the foot back, and the wire sliced a nice deep cut down through his heel bulb.

LarkspurCO
Dec. 9, 2007, 01:12 PM
Am I the ONLY one who think's the original post was done tongue-in-cheek?

What are you suggesting? A sense of ... humor?

kkj
Dec. 9, 2007, 02:33 PM
So the whole thing was made up and PP did not help Beatriz Ferrar-Salaat? Jokes are fine but I don't think you should have singled her out. Now there will be rumors out there that she is a PP follower who can can ride a mean Grand Prix but not handle her horses otherwise. That isn't very cool. 6 months from now this rumor will be resurrected and people will be like, "Oh yeah I know I heard that somewhere, it must be true."

I personally have a problem with roping. I saw a little calf have its neck snapped in calf roping and then they drug the poor limp dead thing out of the arena. I have worked with a lot of young horses from the most mellow to the most hot and I never saw a need for that. You can get them used to things around their legs etc without throwing a rope at them.

arena run
Dec. 9, 2007, 02:59 PM
You know.. it would be mighty nice if folks realized that there is - usually - a time and place and use for just about everything.

Even.... roping a horse. :D





Whoodda thunk it? sylvia

MistyBlue
Dec. 9, 2007, 03:04 PM
Wait...what....someone got Pat Parelli as a Christmas present?
Did they get a gift receipt so they can return that gift?
Isn't Ms Ferrer-Salat in Spain?
Was Pat in Spain or in Ohio?
Or was Ms Ferrer-Salat in the states?
Confuzzled here. :confused:

STF
Dec. 9, 2007, 03:10 PM
So come on SLC, what are you babbling about now????

Equibrit
Dec. 9, 2007, 03:38 PM
Where on this green earth does somebody come up with that sort of drivel.
(it doesn't even qualify as humour).

fiona
Dec. 9, 2007, 03:45 PM
[QUOTE][You know.. it would be mighty nice if folks realized that there is - usually - a time and place and use for just about everything.

Even.... a rope.

/QUOTE]

ok.... are you suggesting a lynching? Seems a bit harsh, even allowing for recent circumstances.

claire
Dec. 9, 2007, 03:49 PM
So the whole thing was made up and PP did not help Beatriz Ferrar-Salaat? Jokes are fine but I don't think you should have singled her out. Now there will be rumors out there that she is a PP follower who can can ride a mean Grand Prix but not handle her horses otherwise. That isn't very cool. 6 months from now this rumor will be resurrected and people will be like, "Oh yeah I know I heard that somewhere, it must be true."

:no: And quite ironic, that someone who is the first to lecture everyone about rumor and unsubstantiated stories...:confused:

I am sure Beatriz Ferrar-Salaat would fail to find the humor in this sad attempt at a train wreck.

hedmbl
Dec. 9, 2007, 03:51 PM
[QUOTE][You know.. it would be mighty nice if folks realized that there is - usually - a time and place and use for just about everything.

Even.... a rope.

/QUOTE]

ok.... are you suggesting a lynching? Seems a bit harsh, even allowing for recent circumstances.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Reiter
Dec. 9, 2007, 03:52 PM
[QUOTE][You know.. it would be mighty nice if folks realized that there is - usually - a time and place and use for just about everything.

Even.... a rope.

/QUOTE]

ok.... are you suggesting a lynching? Seems a bit harsh, even allowing for recent circumstances.

Hahaha, now that's my kind of humor!!!!! :lol:
You are kidding? Right? :D

Pinerose
Dec. 9, 2007, 04:20 PM
Lyla Cansfield, team member of Pat & Linda Parelli staff in Pagosa (Colorado USA) and Ocala (Florida USA) for the last two years , will be August and September in Barcelona.
Lyla is coming to help dressage trainig team of Luis Lucio during the stay of Carmen Cama in USA.

Carmen Cama , who normally helps Luis stable in Parelli Natural Horsmanship areas, will be in Colorado (USA) for some studies during this summer.

Pat & Linda Parelli send Lyla to Barcelona to help Luis horses and riders to keep improving in their PNH daily practice during this period.

Apparently, Beatriz is a neighbor of Luis Lucio who seems to be a devoted Parelli follower, introduced to PP in 2002 trough friend Cecile Glamour in Barcelona.

http://www.luislucio.com/english/index.html

sanctuary
Dec. 9, 2007, 04:33 PM
Don't remember the details well, but I do KNOW that PP spoke of this on just this past week's Parelli show on RFD-TV (Wed 10 PM). I only watch for amusement, I am NOT a PP follower, so please don't abuse me. But this is not something SLC made up.

Rusty Stirrup
Dec. 9, 2007, 04:52 PM
Maybe WAZ sent him.

arena run
Dec. 9, 2007, 04:55 PM
Holey freakin' Moley!!!
What sort of pressure are you putting on a horse that you run the risk of getting killed?
Haaaaallllllooooooo!!!! Happy Athlete anyone?


[quote][You know.. it would be mighty nice if folks realized that there is - usually - a time and place and use for just about everything.

Even.... a rope.

/QUOTE]

ok.... are you suggesting a lynching? Seems a bit harsh, even allowing for recent circumstances.


Ummm. No I wasn't actually. :) I did phrase that sort of badly there at the end, yes? <lol> Will need to change that. sylvia

dressage72
Dec. 9, 2007, 04:55 PM
I heard something on rfd-tv also. But in all seriousness the original post is tongue in cheek! Ropes being good for joints......please tell me you can't clearly see the sarcasm!!

Ghazzu
Dec. 9, 2007, 05:13 PM
[quote=fiona;2856964]


Ummm. No I wasn't actually. :) I did phrase that sort of badly there at the end, yes? <lol> Will need to change that. sylvia

4-point restraints, mayhap?

Bluey
Dec. 9, 2007, 05:44 PM
---"I personally have a problem with roping. I saw a little calf have its neck snapped in calf roping and then they drug the poor limp dead thing out of the arena."---

That would be like saying that you have a problem with driving because you have driven by a wreck that killed some people.:confused:

I have seen uncounted ropings and have yet to see a calf die or even injured, or know anyone that has, but have heard it has happened.
I don't like it when judges are not strict on the "no jerk" rule, that is there to keep that from happening.:yes:
Of course, we don't rope like that in the pasture, to treat one, that is arena roping for time.

In the pasture, we catch and ease a calf to a stand still, circle and flip the rope, back the horse and the rope tightens around all four legs.
The calf then sits down and you get off, lay it on it's side, hold it down, slip the rope off the legs and tie the calf with the pigging string.

Handling a rope properly is an art.
Long ago, many ranches didn't "halterbreak" their horses, they roped them out of the pen or remuda, many trained to stand in a line against a rope corral.

You didn't walk to your horse, but the cowboss would rope the horse you asked for.
There are several "horse loops", that settle the rope over a horse's head without hitting it and a few other forefooting loops, that you lay a horse down with.

Any tool, including a rope, can be misused, by accident or on purpose.
That doesn't make the tool itself bad, although in the West a lariat is also nicknamed "the devil's rope".;)

Will roping a horse help with it's dressage?
Looking for a direct connection there, not any more than, say, jumping will.
Then, to be familiar with ropes, or anything else, may help any horse or horseman expand it's horizons.
We never know when that will come in handy some day.:)

siegi b.
Dec. 9, 2007, 06:01 PM
I think slc has been hitting the eggnog again! :-)

dressage72
Dec. 9, 2007, 06:04 PM
I think slc has been hitting the eggnog again! :-)

:) Well whatever it is, pass some along!

Petstorejunkie
Dec. 9, 2007, 06:28 PM
chuga chuga chuga chuga WOO WOO!!!!

fiona
Dec. 9, 2007, 06:43 PM
I don't like it when judges are not strict on the "no jerk" rule

Yeah, it's when they let the jerks into dressage it all goes pear shaped.

STF
Dec. 9, 2007, 06:45 PM
I think slc has been hitting the eggnog again! :-)


I like eggnog!

fourhorses
Dec. 9, 2007, 06:51 PM
What an odd little thread this is.
Of course that's why I feel compelled to comment (that and it's an impending Parelli train wreck).:lol:

I can see the revelance and practicality of training a horse to accept the rope (aka. getting it used to a lariat touching it on the body, legs, being swung above the head, etc.) as it is a very useful method for all those times previously mentioned above -- like when your horse might get caught up in some wire, or to accept restraint with aplomb. I can also see the revalence of roping a horse -- if you happen to have an unbroken, unhandled young range horse or something of that ilk (we've worked with a few and the only way to catch the buggers was to rope them, as you certainly weren't going to get a halter and lead rope on them to start with). But I can't see how roping a horse would teach it anything necessarily, other than to give up (which on some of those range colts I mentioned above was EXACTLY the desired effect, but I highly doubt a GP horse would be in need of that, at least I would hope so) -- and it is a very good way for the horse to get hurt in a related accident (so more of a have to when necessary than a "gee let's rope that sucka, that'll show it", although I'm sure this has happened before).
As for using a horse to rope off of (aka teaching it to be a roping horse) -- well, if just for fun, I suppose -- why not? Goes along the lines of why not do dressage with your roping horse I suppose. But I rather doubt most dressage riders would want their mounts doing full fledged steer stopping -- as they'd want their horses saved for dressage work...just as most ropers probably wouldn't want to use up their good roping horses doing full tilt dressage stuff.

As an associate of real cowboys and erstwhile horse handler I'm getting a bit ill of all this hyped up "cowboy way" BS. Do you know how many truly crappy "trainers" we now have sprouting up like noxious fairy rings in my neck of the woods now (which is hilarious considering where I live)? All because they've touted themselves as "cowboy trainers" who "do it natural-style" (beggars the question "do what natural style" if you ask me)? Do you realize how many folks (some with some really good horses -- these aren't all backyard Dobbins these guys are getting, nor are they charging backyard prices either -- some have gotten themselves very nice little establishments)
now flock to them with business, often forsaking some very good traditional trainers (both western and english, some of whom, gasp actually worked as cowboys at one time:eek:) who don't invoke the Ol Cowboy School ah Hoss Whispering? Do you realize how many poorly started, almost/thoroughly ruined projects/major charity undertakings are coming out of this (or how many wind up rotting away in a back pasture due to it -- or worse wind up on a possum belly bound for Ye Olde Mehico or the Great White North)?

I for one am sick of NH, sick of Cowboy Way whatever, sick of horse whispering, and sick of anything that smacks of it (it's just as bad as any poling or rollkur controversy in "Englishland"). Forget the hype (whether it be Mr. Eurotrainer or Mr. Cowpoke) -- how 'bout just sticking to good old fashioned intelligent, thinking horsemanship and giving kudos and boons to those few horsepeople, those rare trainers who still practice it, foreign or domestic, "english" or "western", BNT or the fella who's a good hand around the corner from you?

Off soapbox for now -- please excuse the diatribe. I'll be returning to my corner.

Kenike
Dec. 9, 2007, 07:14 PM
You know, I don't agree with Bluey very often (different personalities), but I have to agree with his statements on roping cattle. I'm married to a cattle ranch raised team roper and have yet to see an injury from the rope or handling to a steer (calf, cow, whatever). I HAVE seen them injure themselves by doing stupid things, including trying to climb over their counterparts while in the chute, but never from the actual act of roping.

And, yes, I have allowed my husband to heel (rope) my horses when we've been riding. Not take slack and dally, of course (which nobody in their right mind would do), just lay it down at their heels.

As for the PP thing? Yeah, I've got a bottle of wine open with chocolate at the ready while enjoying the latest trainwreck :lol:

slc2
Dec. 9, 2007, 07:37 PM
All I did was repeat exactly what Patty said in his presentation. Not one bit of it is made up. It's exactly what he said.

I have to agree with the previous poster who said she's sick of all this 'Cowboy BS'. My old auntie, Texas as can be, boyfriend named Tex, with a HORSE named Tex, Monty Foreman devotee, Buck Brannaman devotee, once said, 'We don't rope off the good horses, and we don't rope the good horses'. The way she put it was, it is just not worth the risk of injury. I find the blind adoration of all things cowboy nutty, but common, and something so emotional and so fanatical, that it's not worth even attempting to discuss; at least it gives some people jobs who would otherwise be selling cars or electronic equipment, or watches on the street.

Sithly
Dec. 9, 2007, 07:58 PM
This thread = :lol::lol::lol:

Seriously, though, slc and Parelli? That's almost not even fair. :lol:

SillyHorse
Dec. 9, 2007, 08:02 PM
I don't like it when judges are not strict on the "no jerk" rule, that is there to keep that from happening.:yes:


Yeah, it's when they let the jerks into dressage it all goes pear shaped.
LOL! :lol:

Mardi
Dec. 10, 2007, 12:11 AM
You can teach a horse virtually everything it needs to know about rope handling from the ground.

I'm trying to be open minded here....Which hoof does the horse use to swing the rope ?

Bluey
Dec. 10, 2007, 07:03 AM
I'm trying to be open minded here....Which hoof does the horse use to swing the rope ?

Silly, don't you know that horses twirl ropes with their mouths?;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFD__LAAhAM

MistyBlue
Dec. 10, 2007, 07:46 AM
:lol: That horse does a pretty good job with that rope! :yes:
However...it's always embarassing to see someone else wearing the same thing I am. :winkgrin:

Bluey
Dec. 10, 2007, 08:03 AM
:lol: That horse does a pretty good job with that rope! :yes:
However...it's always embarassing to see someone else wearing the same thing I am. :winkgrin:

I forgot a disclaimer, that it is not my horse and myself there.:lol:

Did you notice his clear body language of ill temper there, when messed with in the background?
Looks like he is getting the upper hoof in that situation.:eek:
I would watch him closely and nip that attitude of entitlement in the bud, before he starts to terrorize people.:no:

gallupgirl
Dec. 10, 2007, 08:18 AM
I for one am sick of NH, sick of Cowboy Way whatever, sick of horse whispering, and sick of anything that smacks of it (it's just as bad as any poling or rollkur controversy in "Englishland"). Forget the hype (whether it be Mr. Eurotrainer or Mr. Cowpoke) -- how 'bout just sticking to good old fashioned intelligent, thinking horsemanship and giving kudos and boons to those few horsepeople, those rare trainers who still practice it, foreign or domestic, "english" or "western", BNT or the fella who's a good hand around the corner from you?

.


Very very well said!

bird4416
Dec. 10, 2007, 08:51 AM
I'm sorry, I must be dense. What exactly is the point of this thread? Are we bashing PP or cowboys or NH or what? I'm so confused.

egontoast
Dec. 10, 2007, 09:00 AM
The point is that slc2 obviously got bored watching TV and decided to start a trainwreck. Not a new trainwreck , though, just the same old, same old..

"I saw Parelli on TV and he said he taught Beatriz in Spain" would not have created the desired effect so she had to fictionalize a little and pretend she was at the clinic. After a while, you see the patterns.;)

fiona
Dec. 10, 2007, 09:02 AM
Actually Bird we're just struggling with slick and her sense of humour, that and the concept of horses as killing machines.

monstrpony
Dec. 10, 2007, 10:11 AM
I find the blind adoration of all things cowboy nutty, but common, and something so emotional and so fanatical, that it's not worth even attempting to discuss;

And so you started this thread for what good reason?? :confused:

Eclectic Horseman
Dec. 10, 2007, 01:23 PM
I think I am beginning to see how this "long con" works.

1. Find a serious international competitor in a discipline that you know nothing about. Particularly one with a following of clients that you can reach. And NOT a competitive cowboy or you may put yourself in risk of bodily harm.

2. Get access to that person and fawn on them behind the scenes. Tell them that you want to learn how they do what they do and how you so admire them.

3. After a while, go public with the association between You and Them. Make sure that the connection and publicity are nebulous enough so that people will not understand who is teaching whom. Make it sound very much like the serious international competitor is endorsing you and your product.

4. Laugh all the way to the bank.

Do you think I've worked it out? It's a new marketing technique that allows you to get a fabulous endorsement without paying for it. :lol: And there is indeed a sucker born every minute. At least.

Gracie
Dec. 10, 2007, 01:39 PM
I for one am sick of NH, sick of Cowboy Way whatever, sick of horse whispering, and sick of anything that smacks of it (it's just as bad as any poling or rollkur controversy in "Englishland"). Forget the hype (whether it be Mr. Eurotrainer or Mr. Cowpoke) -- how 'bout just sticking to good old fashioned intelligent, thinking horsemanship and giving kudos and boons to those few horsepeople, those rare trainers who still practice it, foreign or domestic, "english" or "western", BNT or the fella who's a good hand around the corner from you?

But fourhorses, we wouldn't have these provoking and compelling discussions that run 3 plus pages if we only stuck to good old fashioned, intelligent-thinking horsemanship!

a leg at each corner
Dec. 10, 2007, 05:45 PM
All I did was repeat exactly what Patty said in his presentation. Not one bit of it is made up. It's exactly what he said.



Patty? Does he know you call him that?

On another note PP says a lot of things that make NO sense AT ALL. But he still says them.

Ghazzu
Dec. 10, 2007, 05:47 PM
Patty? Does he know you call him that?

On another note PP says a lot of things that make NO sense AT ALL. But he still says them.


Apparently, PP is not alone in that regard.

meupatdoes
Dec. 11, 2007, 08:31 AM
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v298/meupatdoes/?action=view&current=Failboat.jpg

hitchinmygetalong
Dec. 11, 2007, 09:30 AM
Poor OP. Tried to start a train wreck and all she got was this (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/19/business/19thomas.html?_r=1&oref=slogin).

Sometimes it's best to leave these things to the experts. :winkgrin:

Dave Walker
Dec. 11, 2007, 10:45 AM
Why are all you people so insecure about your discipline? Every time someone mentions Pat Parelli or sending their horse to a Western trainer or something like that everybody responds by asserting that the person mentioned is an incompetent idiot and that everyone else of that ilk is an idiot as well.

It seems to me that we can learn something from everybody and every discipline as long as we keep an open mind. People obviously do what they do because it seems to work for them. So, just maybe, there is a kernel of useful information in there that can help you as well as long as you are open minded enough to think about it. I hardly think that Dressage has all the answers about training all horses for all jobs in all situations. It is just a part of the equine picture. But as long as you mind is closed I guess that is the only part of the picture that you will ever see.

Or, maybe you just get your rocks off by making fun of people and things that are different than you? Sounds kinds of like an elitist bigot to me.

Dave

monstrpony
Dec. 11, 2007, 10:52 AM
Dave--

Bingo!

But thanks for trying. A breath of fresh air ...

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Dec. 11, 2007, 10:53 AM
Ah Dave, clearly, you are a naive newbie to the board, especially this forum.

Let me sum it up for you:

There is nothing, NOTHING, that Pat Parelli does or claims that has not been espoused by past masters (real masters of horsemanship). Maybe you don't know, but people like Olivera, Podjhasky...there are many, from several countries, variations on the theme. And they stated it first, presented in a manner that promoted safety with horse and rider, and best of all, no funky marketing gimmicks.

monstrpony
Dec. 11, 2007, 11:10 AM
Geek, nobody is arguing that. It's tarring anyone who's ever touched a western saddle with the Parelli brush that gets annoying.

Portia
Dec. 11, 2007, 11:59 AM
I'm no fan of NH or PP, and god knows I don't want anyone to do anything that would harm a horse. But it sounds like that's not what Dave is talking about.

So, maybe we could agree that western horses, especially working ranch horses, have to do a very different job than do dressage horses, and so maybe some different training techniques are appropriate for them? And maybe we who don't train horses to do those jobs may not understand why and how those techniques are used effectively and safely?

Just putting it out there that maybe we don't know everything. :)

LMH
Dec. 11, 2007, 12:10 PM
:confused:
Ah Dave, clearly, you are a naive newbie to the board, especially this forum.

Let me sum it up for you:

There is nothing, NOTHING, that Pat Parelli does or claims that has not been espoused by past masters (real masters of horsemanship). Maybe you don't know, but people like Olivera, Podjhasky...there are many, from several countries, variations on the theme. And they stated it first, presented in a manner that promoted safety with horse and rider, and best of all, no funky marketing gimmicks.

So what is your point? Do these great 'masters' not have students? Does this mean every student of a master that teaches is not worthy?

So what happens when all the masters die? Can no one teach any more?

FancyFree
Dec. 11, 2007, 12:15 PM
Ah Dave, clearly, you are a naive newbie to the board, especially this forum.

Let me sum it up for you:

There is nothing, NOTHING, that Pat Parelli does or claims that has not been espoused by past masters (real masters of horsemanship). Maybe you don't know, but people like Olivera, Podjhasky...there are many, from several countries, variations on the theme. And they stated it first, presented in a manner that promoted safety with horse and rider, and best of all, no funky marketing gimmicks.

:yes:

I regard PP in the same light as Scientology. Creepy, money-making, cult-like scam. Apologies in advance to any clams that might be on this board. :cool:

mp
Dec. 11, 2007, 12:28 PM
So, just maybe, there is a kernel of useful information in there that can help you as well as long as you are open minded enough to think about it.

That's always been my point of view. The mechanics and basic nature of the horse don't change. It's what the rider chooses to do with the horse (and his knowledge of the horse) that's different.



Sounds kinds of like an elitist bigot to me.Dave

Wow! Even though you're a naive dummy, you have psychic abilities. You posted that before DressageGeek's snotty summary. :lol:

egontoast
Dec. 11, 2007, 01:07 PM
A good horseman is a good horseman, regardless of the tack used.

I know some old guys who still work their horses logging in the woods. Some of them are amazing with horses, some of them are not so amazing. It's the same with every discipline.

However, even though the stupid topic has been done to death and did not need another trainwreck, I still think Parelli is an ass.

If that makes me an elitist bigot, too,

Fine.

Eclectic Horseman
Dec. 11, 2007, 01:38 PM
It's just NOT DRESSAGE. The principles are not compatible with dressage. It is unnecessary and counterproductive in dressage training.

You don't see the SRS taking rodeo horses and trying to school them in dressage to make them better cutters or ropers or whatever. It's ridiculous, isn't it? Then why am I an elitist bigot when I think that it is ridiculous that these tv cowboys are "training" these horses that are already highly trained in dressage? It seems just as ridiculous to me.:rolleyes:

Dave Walker
Dec. 11, 2007, 02:06 PM
Those "cowboys" on TV are NOT training a horse to be good in Dressage. They are working with the rider to solve a specific behavioral or training issue that hasn't been solved by the rider's normal instructor/trainer. Something that is a more generic horse issue not a "how to improve the piaffe" issue. For this sort of thing they have as much knowledge as anyone.

Dave

Eclectic Horseman
Dec. 11, 2007, 02:11 PM
Those "cowboys" on TV are NOT training a horse to be good in Dressage. They are working with the rider to solve a specific behavioral or training issue that hasn't been solved by the rider's normal instructor/trainer. Something that is a more generic horse issue not a "how to improve the piaffe" issue. For this sort of thing they have as much knowledge as anyone.

Dave

If they are not riding the horse "on the aids" as a dressage rider would ride it, then it is either (1) teaching the horse an evasion of dressage aids or (2) not going to work when the horse is being ridden between the hand and the leg again as we do in dressage.

If the horse's normal instructor/trainer isn't solving the issue--you find another trainer in the discipline of dressage to solve the problem. If a rodeo cowboy is having a problem with his cutting horse, he does not take it to Klaus Balkenhal to get it fixed. The basics are different, the expectations are different, the style of riding is completely different.
If you don't get this then I don't know what else I can say to explain it.

mp
Dec. 11, 2007, 02:12 PM
The principles are not compatible with dressage.

I know very little of Parelli and what I do know, I don't like. But I have seen some very talented working western riders (cowboys, if you like) who were every bit as skilled at riding and handling horses as some of the top dressage riders and trainers I've seen.

I have also seen a "tv cowboy" work with a highly trained dressage horse that had abominable ground manners, and help his owner learn how to handle him. I'm sure the dressage clinicians I've seen could do the same for some of the nutbar cutters I've been around.

Because a horse doesn't know if he's being asked to do dressage or something else. He just knows if the human speaks his language.

Eclectic Horseman
Dec. 11, 2007, 02:18 PM
I know very little of Parelli and what I do know, I don't like. But I have seen some very talented working western riders (cowboys, if you like) who were every bit as skilled at riding and handling horses as some of the top dressage riders and trainers I've seen.

I have also seen a "tv cowboy" work with a highly trained dressage horse that had abominable ground manners, and help his owner learn how to handle him. I'm sure the dressage clinicians I've seen could do the same for some of the nutbar cutters I've been around.

Because a horse doesn't know if he's being asked to do dressage or something else. He just knows if the human speaks his language.

Ah, but we aren't talking about "abominable ground manners" here. If it were just that it wouldn't be such a problem. But now they are going to fix the rearers, and rope them and rope on them and all this other poppycock. If you want to improve the mounted training of a dressage horse, it must be ridden using dressage techniques. That's all I am saying. I am not talking about pony club or 4H club kid stuff like learning to load a horse in a trailer.

mp
Dec. 11, 2007, 02:21 PM
Ah, but we aren't talking about "abominable ground manners" here. If it were just that it wouldn't be such a problem. But now they are going to fix the rearers, and rope them and rope on them and all this other poppycock. If you want to improve the mounted training of a dressage horse, it must be ridden using dressage techniques. That's all I am saying. I am not talking about pony club or 4H club kid stuff like learning to load a horse in a trailer.


If you don't get this then I don't know what else I can say to explain it.

Back atcha.

fourhorses
Dec. 11, 2007, 02:54 PM
Ok, back on my soapbox, then I promise to go to my room and not bother this thread anymore....

Hello? Did I say I "tarred and feathered" WESTERN HORSEMANSHIP? noooo, I didn't; I know several very good horsemen/women who prefer western tack -- as stated in my post some of them are/have been (wonder of all wonders) REAL freakin cowboys/girls -- who've actually worked on ranches and tended cattle and broke out honest to God ranch horses.

None of them would be considered cowboys according to the new, "Cowboy Way/NH/TV Hoss trainer" movement -- they don't seem to fit into that persona well as they aren't given to bravado acts of stellar "cowboy way hossmanship" -- aka. won't rope something unless it absolutely needs to be, don't ride horses into trailers, etc.; besides they don't wear the right clothes (usually running around in baseball caps, sweats, holey jeans, and tennis shoes/rubber boots -- not straw hats, dark wash Wranglers, chinks, and new pointy toe boots) -- and, biggest gasp of all, they DO use a lot of classical dressage philosophy/training in their programs -- because it's just common sense, good horse training, and it's pretty much the same freaking program whether your riding roping horses, jumpers, logging horses, eventers, or the GP dressage test. Yes, there are some differences do to the job required, but the core value is the same -- and I'd be preferring someone like that over someone "in my discipline" who was no core value and all hype.

Oh, and not a one of those "cowboys" that I supposedly snub, but hang out with anyway (and I let them ride my horses too -- jeez, am I lousy at this DQ bigot stuff, I better try harder huh?) much cares for the NH/Cowboy Way/Horse Whispering Bs either, as they see it as a bunch of folks dressing up, getting on tv and spouting stuff which is either pure snake oil or something the "old dead guys" have done forever anyway, all so they can cash in on this next big wave of hoss-breakin guruism (and yes, I know of a half dozen of them who have had direct contact with the behind the scenes goings on at some of these TV cowboy trainers big circuses...er clinics; I've seen it myself too). As one of them said to me the other day while visiting out at my place "@#$@# Trainer X has ridden more [insert very damaging comment which is completely inappropriate to repeat but was darn ironic at the time] than he has horses, but I guess he's on to something because he's sure making more money than me...probably should go out and buy myself some fancy clothes and a lariat and a stick, throw everything in the roundpen and run them when they first set foot on the place and crank their faces into their chests... and start charging more...".

My sentiments exactly -- I don't like hype, and I can't understand the allure of it. And I hate to see folks who I consider to be good horsemen getting the shaft due to the backlash engendered by all of this hype (love the real ones and don't make them quilty by tack preference association please).

Either that or I need to start hanging out with a different set of cowboys, as I'm hanging out with entirely the wrong set of cowpokes....

Pinerose
Dec. 11, 2007, 02:55 PM
I think the day someone thinks that only they have all the answers is the day they cease to learn. Whether it is the PP cult member with the attitude or the elitist DQ, neither is better than the other.

fourhorses
Dec. 11, 2007, 02:56 PM
Oh, and my apologies for all of the grammatica/syntax/spelling errors -- trying to type this while feeding my toddler.

Please excuse, will now go quietly to my corner, I promise.

Sandy M
Dec. 11, 2007, 06:40 PM
Why are all you people so insecure about your discipline? Every time someone mentions Pat Parelli or sending their horse to a Western trainer or something like that everybody responds by asserting that the person mentioned is an incompetent idiot and that everyone else of that ilk is an idiot as well.

It seems to me that we can learn something from everybody and every discipline as long as we keep an open mind. People obviously do what they do because it seems to work for them. So, just maybe, there is a kernel of useful information in there that can help you as well as long as you are open minded enough to think about it. I hardly think that Dressage has all the answers about training all horses for all jobs in all situations. It is just a part of the equine picture. But as long as you mind is closed I guess that is the only part of the picture that you will ever see.

Or, maybe you just get your rocks off by making fun of people and things that are different than you? Sounds kinds of like an elitist bigot to me.

Dave


Haven't read through all this - but have read through many similar threads in the past. Dave - I don't think anyone has a problem with NH per se. It's (a) the Parelli marketing of old-time good horsemanship in a new package, along with the "everybody else is wrong" attitude (something that some DQs admittedly share with Parellites. LOL) (b) LP's l emphasis on "dressage is bad," (c) NH inept proselytzers that drive me nuckin' futz! (No, I am NOT cruel to my horse because I do dressage! Yes, my horse does (or will) go on the trail. He hasn't yet because no one else where I board trail rides and I am NOT soloing on a 3 year old; and (c) Parelli, in particular, does not much address under saddle work useful to dressage as a discipline, and no amount of roundpenning and carrot sticks is going to produce correct collection/lateral work/passage/piaffe - i.e., under saddle progressive training for dressage.

Personally, I sent my unstarted 3 year old gelding to a cowgirl to start, not a dressage trainer. You may even know her, since she was in Sunol and is now in the Livermore/Pleasanton area. But now he's been under saddle for several months and is home and working, and while if I have a major behavior problem (hopefully not! so far, so good), he may go back to her for a refresher, from this point on, we'll be heading for the dressage trainer.

goeslikestink
Dec. 11, 2007, 06:52 PM
[QUOTE=MistyBlue;2856897]Wait...what....someone got Pat Parelli as a Christmas present?



dont think i would like him as a christmas present

hes not my type
haha

not even playing father christmas
mind you he does have elves about rooting for him sooooooo uuuuuuuuuuuum

goeslikestink
Dec. 11, 2007, 06:56 PM
here this is the new fangle dangled pat parelli in action

i think i would invest my money on him as a proper trianer

well worth the education this bloke brings iam sure you will all agree
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRmxcASjR5s

petitefilly
Dec. 12, 2007, 10:56 PM
A good horseman is a good horseman, regardless of the tack used.

I know some old guys who still work their horses logging in the woods. Some of them are amazing with horses, some of them are not so amazing. It's the same with every discipline.

However, even though the stupid topic has been done to death and did not need another trainwreck, I still think Parelli is an ass.

If that makes me an elitist bigot, too,

Fine.

LOL No, really? LOL tell us how you really feel.

Poor Dave, he thinks like a man. That's his best feature here so far. :)

The problem with Pat P is his never ending back talking about dressage, DAVE! He rants and raves about how stupid dressage riders are, and how if they only saw the light (his neverending story) they would all kneel down and kiss his _ss.

Sorry, Charlie, ain't eatin' his tuna! We got our own fish to fry!!!!! :)

kkj
Dec. 13, 2007, 09:11 AM
I am one of those people who thinks we can all learn a little something from all the disciplines. I think there are good horsepeople in all disciplines.

I also think there are some dressage riders/trainers who push too hard, force too much, are too type A all of the time and that their horses could benefit from a little time playing silly arena games or whatever.

I know a lot of dressage people who never let the horse be a horse whether that is turn out, down time, a trail ride what have you. That to me is very detrimental to the horse and a lot of horses cannot handle this. A lot of horses cannot make it as a competitive dressage horse. I also know a lot of those dressage people who are not great at handling their horses on the ground. I have a pro friend with an I1 horse who has terrible ground manners and is awful in the trailer. I know a lot of people who cannot clip or even shoe their horse without drugs. As a kid, I showed QH and I can tell you the ground manners on those horses were incredible. Part of it is they are often more quiet easier horses than a high performance warmblood, but a lot if it is the training and handling they receive.

Likewise I know a lot of western people who are just clueless. They ride in big heavy saddles which do not fit. You can tell their horses aren't right in the back or the hind end. They put a young horse that is not super broke in a big ole bit. They don't condition the horse properly. They don't have feel. They are not connected to the horse but just propped up there in that big saddle. They don't ride very well.

I grew up with one of the "famous" natural horsemen guys as a family friend. He is not PP but also is on TV and has gotten rich off of horse women who aren't horsewomen. He told me he caters to people who can't ride. This guy can ride and has a genuine good connection with horses, but he is even better at playing that Horse God Messia to clueless horse owners. I know people who have gone to his week long clinics year after year and they still totally suck. Their horses are counterbent and never through. They go around the ring but by any dressage standard quite badly. They learn all these games and levels and whatever, but they never learn to ride. The seat, balance, timing and feel are just not there.

I don't know what to make of this PP thing slc is talking about. Maybe he did help Beatriz with her horse's ground manners. If that is the case, I hope she in return gave a lesson to his wife on how not to ride only the front end of her "dressage" horse, how to get him through and how to do a lead change that is not late behind or at least how to ride with some connection. Even if the Parellis did teach Beatriz's horse how to stand better tied or load more quietly in the trailer or whatever, I think the Parellis could stand to learn a lot more from her.

MassageLady
Dec. 15, 2007, 07:09 PM
Or, maybe you just get your rocks off by making fun of people and things that are different than you? Sounds kinds of like an elitist bigot to me.
funny...sounds like the Parelli's to me:yes: Is that who you're talking about??:confused:

ESG
Dec. 15, 2007, 08:26 PM
Am I the ONLY one who thinks the original post was done tongue-in-cheek?

Evidently. Now there are two of us.

Susan, you'll get coal in your stocking if you keep this $h!t up. Go put up some Christmas lights and have a glass of wine. :no:

ESG
Dec. 15, 2007, 08:31 PM
Maybe WAZ sent him.

<ESG spewing zinfandel all over spouse's brand new keyboard>

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol: