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Sunny Santa Cruz
Dec. 7, 2007, 11:11 PM
PLEASE let the Dressage Committee of the USEF know how you feel about the Performance Standard Proposal: This will be voted on next month.

http://www.usef.org/contentpage2.aspx?id=committee

Committee list
scroll down to "Breeds and Disciplines"
click on "Dressage Committee"

You can email the committee with your feedback.

I noticed Melissa Creswick info was not included. Here is her email address:

dressagejdg@aol.com


USEF Dressage Committee presents
their Performance Standard Proposal
Qualifying to Move up the Levels
This proposed Rule Change will be voted on at the USEF Annual Meeting in January. If you wish to give them input, please email any or all of the USEF Dressage Committee and give them your ideas. The Rule Change Proposal Reads: RIDERS COMPETING IN DRESSAGE COMPETITIONS AT THIRD LEVEL AND ABOVE MUST BE ELIGIBLE ACCORDING TO THE QUALIFICATION CRITERIA ESTABLISHED BY THE FEDERATION DRESSAGE COMMITTEE. EFFECTIVE DEC. 1, 2009.

USEF Committee Members
marianne ludwig
anne gribbons
george williams
jayne ayers
sam barish
kathy connelly
melissa creswick
jan ebeling
janet brown foy
lisa gorretta
lendon gray
hilda gurney
scott hassler
carol lavell
janine malone
debbie mcdonald
axel steiner
elizabeth williams
linda zang

MagicRoseFarm
Dec. 8, 2007, 01:14 AM
ty bumpity bump

Dressage Art
Dec. 8, 2007, 02:07 AM
yes, I just got the email from CDS about about USEF proposal for Performance Standard. ******************
California Dressage Society Members please read

USEF Dressage Committee presents
their Performance Standard Proposal
Qualifying to Move up the Levels
This proposed Rule Change will be voted on at the USEF Annual Meeting in January. If you wish to give them input, please email any or all of the USEF Dressage Committee and give them your ideas. The Rule Change Proposal Reads: RIDERS COMPETING IN DRESSAGE COMPETITIONS AT THIRD LEVEL AND ABOVE MUST BE ELIGIBLE ACCORDING TO THE QUALIFICATION CRITERIA ESTABLISHED BY THE FEDERATION DRESSAGE COMMITTEE. EFFECTIVE DEC. 1, 2009.

USEF Committee Members
marianne ludwig
anne gribbons
george williams
jayne ayers
sam barish
kathy connelly
melissa creswick
jan ebeling
janet brown foy
lisa gorretta
lendon gray
hilda gurney
scott hassler
carol lavell
janine malone
debbie mcdonald
axel steiner
elizabeth williams
linda zang

Suggested criteria:PERFORMANCE STANDARDS PROPOSAL
Revised 8/3/07
After gathering comments and feedback for several years from officials and exhibitors, the USEF Dressage Committee would like to implement a system of rider qualification through the dressage levels called "Performance Standards". This system, inspired by existing European models, would only apply for riders competing at Third Level and above beginning with the 2010 competition year. The mission of Performance Standards is to fully prepare riders with positive competitive experiences in order to be able to successfully move up the levels, while supporting the welfare of the horse.
The Levels will be named:
Training - Second: BASIC
Third/Fourth: MEDIUM
Prix St. Georges/Intermediare I: ADVANCED
Intermediare II/Grand Prix: INTERNATIONAL An Asterisk (*) will be added to denote a foreign rider.

POINTS:
*There will be no negative points
60% - 62.99% One Point
63% - 65.99% Two Points
66% - 68.99% Three Points
69.00% & above Four Points
Points will be earned at USEF/USDF or FEI recognized competitions. Points can not be earned in dressage classes, sections or divisions in USEF Regular Competitions (restricted breed competitions). Freestyle scores and FEI Young Horse Tests do not count towards points. Any test of the level may be used to accumulate points. FEI tests (junior, young rider etc) can accumulate points as 'equivalent' national levels. These equivalent levels are shown on a chart in the USEF rule book DR 119.2. At least two rides must be of the highest test of the level. These points will track with the rider, not with the horse. Once the rider has earned a designation, it will be permanent. There will be no need to re-qualify.

This system does not apply to dressage classes, sections or divisions in regular competitions. (In other words there are no qualifying requirements to show at breed shows in dressage divisions).

Riders may enter any USEF Training, First or Second Level class at a recognized competition without any qualifying points. Riders may also ride the following FEI Tests at recognized competitions without any qualifying point: FEI Pony, USEF Four-Year-Old, FEI Five-Year-Old, and the FEI Six-Year-Old tests.

You may move up in the middle of the season, once the scores are verified by USDF. You may not move up in the middle of a show.

In order for qualifying points to be recorded, the rider must be a USDF Participating Member and a USEF Member at the time the points are earned. Membership blanks are available from USDF (location) and USEF (location). Verification of membership (membership numbers and cards) from USEF/USDF must be received by the rider before points may be accumulated.

If the rider has been 'grandfathered' into the system and plans to ride Third Level or above at a recognized show (USDF, USEF or FEI), they must be a USDF Participating Member and a USEF Member in order to compete at those levels.

The following system will apply for recognized competitions:

Training, First, Second Level: NO QUALIFYING NEEDED (BASIC LEVEL)

To move from Second Level to Third/Fourth Level: (MEDIUM LEVEL) A rider will need 20 points from three different USEF judges. A panel (of two or more) will count as ONE judge. There will be no limit on points a rider can receive from any panel of 2, 3 or 5 judges. At least two of the tests used for points must be from Second Level Test Four. The remainder of the points may be from any Second Level test.

To move from Third/Fourth Level to Prix St. Georges/Intermediaire I: (ADVANCED LEVEL) A rider will need 10 points from THREE different USEF judges. Same rule for panels as above. At least two of the tests used for points must be from Fourth Level Test Three. The remainder of the points may be from either Third or Fourth Level Tests.

To move from Prix St. Georges/Intermediare I to Intermediaire II/Grand Prix: (INTERNATIONAL LEVEL) A rider will need 8 points from THREE different USEF/FEI judges. Same rule for panels as above. At least two of the tests used for points must be from Intermediaire I. The remainder of the points may be from Prix St. Georges.
ONLY FEI Juniors, FEI Young Riders, Brentina Cup riders, and Developing Horse Riders who are entering U.S. National Championship or NAJYRC QUALIFYING shows are exempt from qualifying to compete.

FOREIGN RIDERS: May qualify using the USEF System as long as membership requirements are met. Or, the rider may prove competition ability with a letter from their National Federation. This proof must be submitted to Jennifer Keeler at USEF.

GRANDFATHERING:
1. If you have appeared on a long list form 1999-Nov. 30, 2009 with USET/USEF you will be allowed to compete at any level
2. If you have competed at the festival of Champions from 19856 to Nov. 30. 2009 you will be allowed to compete at any level
3. USDF Bronze Medal winners from 1974 to Nov. 30, 2009 will be allowed to compete at the MEDIUM level
4. USDF Silver Medal winners from 1974 to Nov. 30, 2009 will be allowed to compete at the ADVANCED level and below.
5. USDF Gold Medal winners from 1974 to Nov. 30, 2009 will be allowed to compete at the INTERNATIONAL level and below.
6. Active USEF judges (listed in the USEF judges roster as of Nov. 30, 2009) will be grandfathered as follows:
*"r" Dressage Judges may compete at the MEDIUM LEVEL
*"R" Dressage Judges may compete at the ADVANCED LEVEL
*"S" Dressage Judges may compete at the INTERNATIONAL LEVEL and below

NOTE: Grandfathering is a one-time exemption and will end Nov. 30, 2009

APPEALS PROCESS:
In the case of an eligibility dispute with a rider, a committee will be formed from the following committees: Three members of the USEF Technical Dressage Committee and Two members of the USEF High Performance Dressage Committee. The members of this committee shall be appointed by the respective Chairs of the two committees. There shall be two members (one from each committee) appointed as alternates in the case of a conflict of interest. These members shall meet when necessary via teleconference. A member of the USDF staff shall also be on the call. Paper proof of eligibility via records (copies of tests, medal certificates etc.) must be submitted from the rider to the committee.

USEF/USDF Membership cards will carry the rider's designation. This designation will only be available on USDF/USEF websites.

TIMELINE:

*January 2008: Rule changes approved at USEF Annual Meeting

*February through April 2008: Development of USEF/USDF Business Plan and Grandfathering Process
1. USEF/USDF Business Plan is developed to identify and formalize the responsibilities of both organizations.
2. Grandfathered riders are flagged in the USDF database. Grandfathered list is received from USEF along with member numbers and a matching up of these riders and flagging in the USDF database is performed both electronically and manually, as necessary.

*May through September 2008: USDF Coding and Programming, Public Relations Campaign Development
1. Coding and programming for this project will take approximately 3-4 months based on current workload and projects. Since this will affect the USDF website, USEF data exchange, and USDF's main working database, this will require on-going monitoring during the programming phase to ensure that normal services and functions are not affected by the additional programming.
2. Public relations and marketing strategies will have to be developed with USDF and USEF in order to ensure that all effected riders are aware of this requirement.

*October 2008: Begin implementation
1. Pilot run through, testing and debugging
2. Introduction of verification process of public and public relations plan implementation

*December 2008: Begin one year of "voluntary compliance"

*December 2009: Plan goes into effect at start of 2010 Competition Year
sted in the facts.

Peggy
Dec. 8, 2007, 02:23 AM
Is it kosher to post the email addresses of the people on the committee? I extracted them from the CDS email.

USEF Committee Members
marianne ludwig [jmludwig@ix.netcom.com]
anne gribbons [agribbons@aol.com]
george williams [georomwn@aol.com]
jayne ayers [jayne@dressagehorse.com]
sam barish [sam.barish@science.doe.gov]
kathy connelly [kathyconnellyavf@aol.com]
melissa creswick [dresagejdg@aol.com]
jan ebeling [acresrnch@aol.com]
janet brown foy [dressagejanet@att.net]
lisa gorretta [lisa@paddocksaddlery.com]
lendon gray [graydressage@optonline.net]
hilda gurney [hildagurney@prodigy.net]
scott hassler [info@hasslerdressage.com]
carol lavell [lavellcarol@aol.com]
janine malone [jemrph@aol.com]
debbie mcdonald [dressagemc@aol.com]
axel steiner [axsteiner@aol.com]
elizabeth williams [lizyh@aol.com]
linda zang [idlewilde@aol.com]

canyonoak
Dec. 8, 2007, 09:54 AM
I think each person who cares about this proposal might do as Rebecca Yount has suggested-- put together something you can put into the hands of someone ATTENDING the USEF Convention.

because it is my understanding (and PLEASE someone correct me if this is wrong) that the way proposals get passed at Convention is-- everyone entitled to a vote says Yes/No.

Which means--a proposal brought by THE committee to the rest of THE convention almost always gets passed. Hunter-jumper people etc just figure--oh, the Dressage committee wants this? Yah, sure why not.

I do not like the proposal for reasons that have been stated and re-stated.

BUT even more --I do not like the Dressage Committee trying to take over the direction of dressage.

Heretofore, proposals have been about lengths of whips, styles of dress: concrete specific rules and regulations.

THIS proposal has to do with the way we all compete, the future and structure of dressage,etc.

I do not believe this is the province of any committee.


Sure: we all know that this proposal is going to be rather difficult (read: very expensive) to actually carry out...BUT, if it gets passed, the possibility of execution is a lot more likely than if it simply gets quashed.

So...I'm already checking around to see who might be going to USEF Convention--and I am going to print out the emails and hand them as a packet.

This is supposed to be OUR organization (hey! I can hear you out there, laughing !).

dressage72
Dec. 8, 2007, 10:28 AM
This has me utterly confused! Say I have never shown, I buy this amazing Grand Prix dressage horse that by some grace of God I can ride like a dream. This proposal tells me I am not allowed to go out and show this horse say at psg if I have not "earned" my right there?

Call me stupid, but why would anybody want to pass a proposal that governs what level they can show at? What benefit comes of this?

pintopiaffe
Dec. 8, 2007, 11:32 AM
While I do think there are a small minority of people moving up who shouldn't... it's their money. They want to throw it away showing above their ability... let'em
What benefit comes of this? IMO, entry fees. I am supposed to show at somewhere between 5 and 20 recognized shows to move up? There are exactly FOUR A YEAR within 4 hours' travel of me. Yeah, with gas at $3.30 a gallon, I'm going to haul five to seven hours or more to get my points... :dead: :cry: I have shown exactly once at First Level, and hope to be SHOWIN 2nd and moving into 3rd next year. I might be able to get to four shows the entire year. I don't compete much, but it is the 'proof in the putting' for us. There ARE no upper level schooling shows up here. Once you're 2nd or above, it's the real deal. This proposal will pretty much lock me in to medium level without any hope of ever getting out of it. What do they get out of it? Five to Twenty show entry fees for someone looking to move up. That's probably 15-18 more than I would ever plan. :no:

Dressage Art
Dec. 8, 2007, 12:01 PM
Most countries with a strong history of dressage have some kind of system in place: need X scores to move up and get certification before you do. Also double is used on 2nd levels and up.

US are quite different. We do have a USDF Medals, but they are not for moving up the levels, just for the show. We have a double on 3rd or 4th level.

So often I hear that dressage in US is not as good as in Europe. I guess, dressage committee is trying to bring the European system to US in hopes of bringing the standards of dressage up.

yaya
Dec. 8, 2007, 12:16 PM
So often I hear that dressage in US is not as good as in Europe. I guess, dressage committee is trying to bring the European system to US in hopes of bringing the standards of dressage up.

Don't you think we are going about it backwards?

Shouldn't we start with some sort of standardized system for TRAINING first? That's the major difference between here and Europe - their trainers all have to go through the same program (within each country, at least), here anyone can hang up a shingle and call themselves a pro.

If you fix the TRAINING first, the showing should take care of itself.

dressage72
Dec. 8, 2007, 01:40 PM
Don't you think we are going about it backwards?

Shouldn't we start with some sort of standardized system for TRAINING first? That's the major difference between here and Europe - their trainers all have to go through the same program (within each country, at least), here anyone can hang up a shingle and call themselves a pro.

If you fix the TRAINING first, the showing should take care of itself.

BINGO!

Ja Da Dee
Dec. 8, 2007, 01:49 PM
IMO, the biggest difference between here and europe is that in the US, most people ride western and learned how to ride without lessons. In Europe, most people ride english, and started riding within a system. These rules aren't going to change that.

claire
Dec. 8, 2007, 02:51 PM
I think each person who cares about this proposal might do as Rebecca Yount has suggested-- put together something you can put into the hands of someone ATTENDING the USEF Convention.
because it is my understanding (and PLEASE someone correct me if this is wrong) that the way proposals get passed at Convention is-- everyone entitled to a vote says Yes/No.

Canyonoak, Ellie K popped in to a discussion over on TOB. I may be misunderstanding :uhoh: but, only the USEF BOD/ExComm gets to vote?

Also, would it be possible to bring in support from the Eventing discipline?
This proposal WILL have a big effect on Advanced Level eventers who do 3rd Level dressage shows to prep for their season... :confused:



"voting and rule-making authority rests solely with the Board of Directors/ExComm, per the USEF bylaws. In order to have open membership voting on a rule change, you would first have to get the bylaws changed.

It is ironic that when you compare the fundamental structures of the FEI, the USEF, and the USDF, the FEI is BY FAR the most democratic of the three, lol. USDF comes in the middle, and USEF brings up the rear, by a longshot."

DontTellMama
Dec. 8, 2007, 03:13 PM
I don't see how the USDF is not democratic? The changes are all voted in by delegates elected to their positions in one fashion or another. The regional directors are also elected. Unfortunately the people willing to step into their positions are few and far between, and they generally run unopposed. But it is as democratic as any other organization that I've seen.

But this concept has been discussed for so long, and while maybe the qualifying system wasn't discussed as in depth as what is coming out now, even as early as last year, they were discussing the 'grandfathering' of people with medals, etc. And honestly, until this year, I NEVER heard a single voice opposed to this proposition. People sat in the Forums and Meetings and said..."Oh what a great idea".

So if it wasn't an issue then, why now, when it comes to fruition isn't it an issue? Are the regions not making their members aware enough of what is going on?

While all the negative issues regarding this rule change have been pointed out, things like trainers who lie about their experiences, or riders who can't sit the trot buying fancy horses and trying to show them at the FEI levels simply because they have the bucks would be eliminated. People would have to gain the experience, before attempting to show the higher levels, and they would have to demonstrate the basics prior to cantering down the center line.

Getting a forty isn't a deterrent for some people. I knew of one woman who bought her FEI schoolmaster, and showed him at fourth and St George's for years, scoring in the forties. Being told OPENLY by judges that this is WRONG. What else are the judges supposed to do? I saw them do everything SHORT of slapping the woman upside the head with the letter C. By the time this woman was done with her horse, he was sway backed, sore behind, and very sad looking.

The judges can't do it all. Not with our liberal and all to eagerly litigious society.

PS. David O'Connor is an eventer. He is also president of the USEF, which would make him a member of the Dressage Committee. I am sure he is well aware of the situation and how it effects the Eventing world. What better voice could you ask to represent you?

claire
Dec. 8, 2007, 03:55 PM
Someone on TOB pointed out something that should be very seriously considered in approving this new rule proposal to pass.

Please read the actual wording of "Proposed Rule 3." to be voted on by the USEF BOD/ExComm.



"although the info above is being promulgated to CDS members, the official statement of the proposed rule 275-07 makes no mention of ANY of this stuff (specifics of the qualification rule)

The current proposed rule as listed on USEF web site:
Proposed Change:
DR119 Participation in Dressage Competitions. [Chapter DR. Dressage Division] Add new and renumber remaining:

3. Effective December 1, 2009, riders competing in Dressage Competitions at Third Level and above must be eligible according to
qualification criteria established by the Federation Dressage Committee.

http://www.usef.org/documents/.....275-07.pdf (http://www.usef.org/documents/.....275-07.pdf)

So if this rule gets approved, anything can be done after the fact. "

In other words, all the "qualification" details are NOT included in the Rule, the Rule simply enables and enpowers the Federation Dressage Committee to establish whatever qualification criteria... :no:

Hilary
Dec. 8, 2007, 04:08 PM
I can't get to the committee section of the website - I click on breeds & disciplines, dressage and can't find committees anywhere. I tried searching the site and got a google response of 4billion hits of dressage and committee.

yaya
Dec. 8, 2007, 08:23 PM
It's hard to find.

You have to click on "About USEF", then "About Us", then "Committee List", then click on "Dressage Committee" (it's under "Breeds & Disciplines Committees"

J-Lu
Dec. 8, 2007, 09:31 PM
But this concept has been discussed for so long, and while maybe the qualifying system wasn't discussed as in depth as what is coming out now, even as early as last year, they were discussing the 'grandfathering' of people with medals, etc. And honestly, until this year, I NEVER heard a single voice opposed to this proposition. People sat in the Forums and Meetings and said..."Oh what a great idea".

Who is "they"? Where did they present this to the general public as opposed to talking amongst themselves? I heard about it 2 years ago, and so did alot of people. But that was all word of mouth and it was "talk". Please tell me how many people sat in Forums and meetings versus how many people are members of of USEF dressage? Please reference the publication of this idea prior to the recent publication.


So if it wasn't an issue then, why now, when it comes to fruition isn't it an issue? Are the regions not making their members aware enough of what is going on? While all the negative issues regarding this rule change have been pointed out, things like trainers who lie about their experiences, or riders who can't sit the trot buying fancy horses and trying to show them at the FEI levels simply because they have the bucks would be eliminated. People would have to gain the experience, before attempting to show the higher levels, and they would have to demonstrate the basics prior to cantering down the center line.

No, they would not be eliminated. Trainers who lie about their experience will continue to lie...because they LIE. Already their scores are public record. Relatively decent riders bouncing the trot on an FEI horse will still make it through the test on the horse's gaits. We've all seen this. I already pay alot of money to demonstrate my basics to my trainer and clinicians, and get objective feedback a couple of times per year from a judge. This plan makes sense.


Getting a forty isn't a deterrent for some people. I knew of one woman who bought her FEI schoolmaster, and showed him at fourth and St George's for years, scoring in the forties. Being told OPENLY by judges that this is WRONG. What else are the judges supposed to do? I saw them do everything SHORT of slapping the woman upside the head with the letter C. By the time this woman was done with her horse, he was sway backed, sore behind, and very sad looking.

An anecdotal story of one woman happy with getting forties pales in comparison to the mean reality of the membership. For every one story I hear, I have ten about responsible people who are prepared to go down centerline. The judges did the extent of their job. Period. Swaybacked, sore behind and sad? Please. I'm sure he has better health insurance and nutrition than most americans. I'm sure he has a massage therapist, a chiropractor and a groom, too, if the woman can afford to buy a FEI schoolmaster.


The judges can't do it all. Not with our liberal and all to eagerly litigious society.

The judges can do it all because their responsibilities are VERY WELL OUTLINED! Watch the ride. Score it. Be honest. It really is that simple. If someone is going to sue a judge over a bad score (oh please!), then someone is going to sue USEF for obstructing their ability to show at the level they've paid money in training/boarding, etc to show at.

J.

PS. Dressage Art. Do you honestly think that what makes Germany great is the fact that they have a qualifying system? Europe has centuries of dressage training, dressage philosophy development, and sport horse breeding. We don't. I don't think a qualifying system will the average american on par with the average german for a long, long time. Quality riding schools for kids and adults where instructors are very qualified and the school horses are really good and you spend your formative years on a longe line.... now that might help balance the equation.

J-Lu
Dec. 8, 2007, 09:31 PM
THANK YOU for posting the contact information on this thread!!

Velvet
Dec. 8, 2007, 11:17 PM
IMO, the biggest difference between here and europe is that in the US, most people ride western and learned how to ride without lessons.


What reality do you live in? It certainly isn't mine, or that of people I know who have made their way into dressage and up the levels. A ton of people in the US have never even put their backside in a western saddle. Instead, they learned to ride some form of english style--including dressage.

It sounds like you're from Europe. They tend to make those bizarre assumptions about Americans. We are not backwards, nor are we all cowboys that "learnt that thar dressage-thing in that bitty little saddle because it looked easy." :rolleyes:

I don't know if you meant it the way I just took it, but that's really a terrible misconception and assumption. The reality is that we just have fewer qualified instructors, top notch school horses to learn from, and our opportunities to learn and watch the best are few and far between (if not non-existant).

The issue is the size of this country, more than anything else. Not that people start out riding in a western saddle and play cowgirl (or boy, as the case may be).

I will, however, agree that the system here is broken. And that the current program that the USDF has implemented to fix the problem (the instructor certification) is a joke and won't change anything. The elites that make the rules need to all go out and get jobs in business and learn what it takes to actually make positive changes. Using horse people to create a solid plan for improvement and growth is simply the blind leading the visually challenged.

pwynnnorman
Dec. 9, 2007, 10:23 AM
Sunny SAnta Cruz and Dressage ARt, are either of you members of the committee? I think it is absolutely outstanding that you posted this, but I'm also curious as to whether the posting was "sanctioned" by the USDF...which is not written to imply something bad at all, but rather something good--excellent, even.

I've always wondered why critical rulemaking decisions like this haven't been posted by the various organizations so that the general membership can hash them out and be heard. With so many minds at work on such things, one would think that the result would be, if not something that made everyone happy, at least something that had been very, very thoroughly thought through by many different perspectives.

This BB is such an excellent resource, even if it might not be absolutely "representative" of the entire membership of various organizations. So, please, I can't tell from your profiles--was this your idea or that of the committee? And kudos to you for posting it, regardless.

canyonoak
Dec. 9, 2007, 10:42 AM
pwynn-in the proposal section of the USEF website, members are asked for feedback and names and email addys are available.
Comments are to be directed to the USEF dressage committee members.

of course, the resulting discussion and positions are probably not what they expected.

ha ha.

Perhaps there was no one saying anything besides, wow what a great idea! because no one until now realized that the committee plans to give itself the power to create/change the actual qualification system purely by themselves, AFTER getting the vague proposal passed.

The idea that this proposal has anything to do with welfare of the horse is nonsense.

Let me say that again--it is nonsense.

Welfare of the horse is the linchpin of the entire mission statement and is featured throughout the entire rulebook.

Ja Da Dee
Dec. 9, 2007, 05:31 PM
What reality do you live in? It certainly isn't mine, or that of people I know who have made their way into dressage and up the levels. A ton of people in the US have never even put their backside in a western saddle. Instead, they learned to ride some form of english style--including dressage.

It sounds like you're from Europe. They tend to make those bizarre assumptions about Americans. We are not backwards, nor are we all cowboys that "learnt that thar dressage-thing in that bitty little saddle because it looked easy." :rolleyes:

I don't know if you meant it the way I just took it, but that's really a terrible misconception and assumption. The reality is that we just have fewer qualified instructors, top notch school horses to learn from, and our opportunities to learn and watch the best are few and far between (if not non-existant).

The issue is the size of this country, more than anything else. Not that people start out riding in a western saddle and play cowgirl (or boy, as the case may be).

I will, however, agree that the system here is broken. And that the current program that the USDF has implemented to fix the problem (the instructor certification) is a joke and won't change anything. The elites that make the rules need to all go out and get jobs in business and learn what it takes to actually make positive changes. Using horse people to create a solid plan for improvement and growth is simply the blind leading the visually challenged.


No Velvet, I'm not european, and I'm not talking just about dressage riders. I'm talking about everyone who sits on a horse frequently. In europe, I believe riders generally have similar basic training, the best really rise to the top, the rest sit in the middle, but they all have the same base. Here, we have the majority of our riders thinking that dressage is all about cranking on your horse and hanging on it's mouth, we loose TONS of talented YR's every year to other riding styles. How many men do you know that ride english, how many that ride western? Do the math. Putting in a qualification system isn't going to get these fabulous riders in a dressage saddle. I guess I'm saying that the problem isnt that we dont have qualifications, it's because we just don't necessarily have all of the best riders in the country riding dressage. How do we drag more kids into eventing, jumpers and dressage? Get them riding, and give them good coaches so they can learn how FUN it is, that will fix the problem.

Mardi
Dec. 10, 2007, 12:43 AM
So often I hear that dressage in US is not as good as in Europe. I guess, dressage committee is trying to bring the European system to US in hopes of bringing the standards of dressage up.

And that's a noble cause...wanting to raise the standards.

However, raise them for whom ? Isn't our dressage team doing pretty darn well ?

Or is it raise them for ourselves ? So we can say (at our local shows, where most of us compete) we're as good as someone in Warendorf.

Who can fill in the blank to help me understand this ? "We want to raise the standards of dressage so we can __________."

Dressage Art
Dec. 10, 2007, 02:47 AM
Who can fill in the blank to help me understand this ? "We want to raise the standards of dressage so we can _________
____have more humane treatment of dressage horses, so we can have less unnecessary arguments with our dressage horses while training them. with stronger basics on lower levels, both horses and riders will have easier time teaching advanced movements.
First, I do believe that this rule will create clearer standards for horses and riders to understand what level of training/scores is considered OK to move up. I saw many threads on BBs "when do you move up a level?" This standard will make it clear!

Second, there are riders who are "bored" to ride on lower levels and go directly to 3rd and up, no matter how bad their basics are. This rule will keep those riders on 2nd level and will help them to understand that basics are important.

It might be a painful change, but I think it'll be a change for the better

Dressage Art
Dec. 10, 2007, 02:51 AM
Don't you think we are going about it backwards? Shouldn't we start with some sort of standardized system for TRAINING first?
Yes, I agree that the raised bar for pro, open classes would be beneficial for our sport. I would like to see the qualification system that will give pros certification per each level based on their show scores.

There is a USDF trainer's certification, but I know that it's very expensive and not many pros can afford to do it. If we would have something "built in" in to the shows that can be easier to gauge trainers.

Sunny SAnta Cruz and Dressage ARt, are either of you members of the committee? I think it is absolutely outstanding that you posted this, but I'm also curious as to whether the posting was "sanctioned" by the USDF...which is not written to imply something bad at all, but rather something good--excellent, even.
I am just a member of CDS. CDS has thousands of members and emailed all of them this email.

rebecca yount
Dec. 10, 2007, 07:46 AM
I gave all the emails to Jeff Moore yesterday when I was a demo rider for the "L" program.

Here's my prediction: The USEF rule change proposal might very well pass--it's only saying there WILL be a system, and that the USEF Dressage Committee will make up the specific criteria.

Then the USEF Dressage Committee (made up, of course, of all USDF people) gets to decide whatever it wants. Remember, the specifics that are being passed around are NOT exactly part of the rule change--they are just some version of what the USEF Dressage Committee wants to enact. There is no specification of what they can enact in the actual rule change.

Which is exactly why I don't think the rule change should pass--because it gives the Dressage Committee absolutely free rein to put in whatever they want without, if they don't feel like it, honoring what others want.

I'm having a lesson with Scott Hassler today, who is on the Dressage Committee. I will talk to him about it, too.

They should have made the rule change specify that when the specific criteria are looked at, that will entail another rule change--remember this one is only about a timeline (December 2009) for criteria to be put in place. But as it stands now, the only rule is about the time it takes place, NOT what the criteria will be.

canyonoak
Dec. 10, 2007, 10:25 AM
<<They should have made the rule change specify that when the specific criteria are looked at, that will entail another rule change--remember this one is only about a timeline (December 2009) for criteria to be put in place. But as it stands now, the only rule is about the time it takes place, NOT what the criteria will be.>>



Thank you Rebecca--that is EXACTLY what I have been saying all along.

And yes--I sent my version of that statement to all the USEF Dressage Committee members a few days ago.

talk about delusions of grandeur!

JackSprats Mom
Dec. 10, 2007, 11:39 PM
Points can not be earned in dressage classes, sections or divisions in USEF Regular Competitions (restricted breed competitions)

So those of us that show primarily at breed shows are SOL in having any hope at moving up in open competitions???

I guess I don't understand this, surely a 65% by a rated judge is a 65% whats it matter if its against the same breed or open?

I pay my USEF and USDF fee's and the shows are USEF sactioned so why on earth would I not recieve points:confused:

Valentina_32926
Dec. 11, 2007, 01:18 PM
Most countries with a strong history of dressage have some kind of system in place: need X scores to move up and get certification before you do. Also double is used on 2nd levels and up.

US are quite different. We do have a USDF Medals, but they are not for moving up the levels, just for the show. We have a double on 3rd or 4th level.

So often I hear that dressage in US is not as good as in Europe. I guess, dressage committee is trying to bring the European system to US in hopes of bringing the standards of dressage up.

Good point - but as someone else above noted - travel is MUCH FURTHER in the US than in Europe. In Europe I can reside in the Netherlands and cross the border to show in Germany for the same amout of time it takes someone in the US to show "locally".

I understand what they're trying to do but disagree with it - means I'll just spend my money on local shows versus recognized - cause I use local to train and show VERY Limited recognized shows (time & money determine that restriction).

rebecca yount
Dec. 19, 2007, 06:37 AM
Just so everyone knows, after an initial few emails in reply to ones I sent, the responses from the USEF Dressage Committee seem to be tapering off. I know the members of the committee are busy and it IS the holiday season.

I encourage everyone who is interested to keep sending emails to all members of the committee, regularly, including links to all the threads on all bulletin boards regarding this subject. Paste comments from threads into the emails. It is probably important to let TPTB how the discussions are evolving and make them aware of new points (some very good ones, IMO) that are being raised. ry

karin o
Dec. 23, 2007, 09:47 AM
It might be interesting for someone artistically minded to come up with , say, four profiles of riders 1,2,3 and 4. Have them living in several parts of the USA ; and create a general show schedule for each, a general budget, and then show the results of what these rider/horse teams must accomplish to move up from the bottom level to the FEI level, or from midlevel to FEI and how it is different from what occurs today. Illustrate and show how this new mandate will work to our (the riders, trainers, owners, organizers) benefit or not by giving examples, and show the problematic issues an enthusiastic dressage rider will run into. (Distance, time, money etc) Often its difficult to sort thru dialogue as opposed to visual examples. All of the energy being utilized here needs to be channeled effectively and definitely utilized by the committees. Merry Christmas to all and may all your rides be remarkable !

DressagetoDay
Dec. 24, 2007, 10:23 PM
From what I understand in Germany and other European Countries, they SPONSOR their top riders and have State run riding schools and stallion stations.

Let's get the USEF to get us Federal funding instead !! Maybe the question we should ask if how much government money supports the top riders in Europe and how we get the same funding. I can see the USEF getting that one on the Congressional budget!! That would keep them so busy they would not have time or the energy to dream up other negative things to do to our organization.

That way all of our really talented riders that we do have would not have to struggle to find the money and the top horses to compete at the upper levels. They would be able to qualify for government sponsorship.

Celle is not referred to as the STATE STUD without reason.

If people want to go and ride at a level they are not ready for, who really cares and who is it hurting? How long does each ride take - always less than 10 MINUTES!! This rule will not improve the life of their horses one iota. Let's not hide this behind the horses benefit, there are PLENTY of short cuts to get your horse to show a higher level than they are ready for and get scores that will qualify. Have you seen some of the very young horses at the Bundeschampionate? What did it take to get those 3 and 4 year olds there?

How does the USEF / USDF think this will change how people in this country, ride at home. Those horses will still be getting yanked on and pulled on. Do you think the uproar over the Rollkur in Europe has people changing the way they school at home? How many of you know of broken down upper level horses so people can QUALIFY for something? I do.

What BS to imply it will improve the life of a horse at all. There is a TD there at all shows so if they are abusing their horses that badly then get the TD!!!

More rules and regulations - Like we need more?? Have you seen how big the rule book is now?? They had to move it to a computer chip to make it affordable to mail !!!!! The ones that make a lot of money to be ignored get ignored anyhow. Have you seen the "pony" divisions in Wellington?

I am not a sheep, I do not want or need or want a sheep herder (under the guise of the USEF) to tell me what I can and cannot do!! For that we have the Federal Government and aren't they doing a wonderful job:winkgrin:

Our (supposedly) organization will be spending money on policing this new rule instead of making our shows and memberships more affordable. Someone is going to have to pay for this to be overseen and to write the database and to ............. Who is watching that budget? Has the committee even considered the cost of implementing this??

Who do they propose should PAY THE SALARIES OF THE PEOPLE HIRED TO POLICE THIS??? HOW MUCH MONEY WILL THIS RULE CHANGE COST?? MEMBERSHIP COSTS INCREASING YET AGAIN??????

Besides don't you already have to qualify to ride at the top shows?

This rule might be more like Germany's but is VERY Un-American. Little clue here we are NOT GERMAN!!!! Nor is this Germany. We live on an entirely different continent with a huge difference in land mass and demographics that influence our riding.

Just because they do it in Germany DOES NOT mean it is a good idea for here. Why do the people at the top of our riding organization (or at least the members of this commitee) think it is a GERMAN RULE SO IT MUST BE BETTER?? Just like one should only have a German horse because they are better!!!

I don't know about anyone else but my grandparents left Germany FOR A REASON and a good one at that.

They have better riders on the whole because they have a greater percentage of their population involved and for more generations. Dressage has been an acceptable profession for hundreds of year there unlike here where most people I meet ask me "what did you do when you HAD A REAL JOB? You know before you did this horse thing??"

Entire towns in Germany show up to watch people ride, so it is financially rewarding for businesses to sponsor riders and it is possible for someone riding to make a living doing it in Germany. Have you seen the huge carnival atmosphere and shopping available at even the local level. They have a much bigger economic investment in horses and riding in Germany than we do here. Plus they all start young and think there is nothing wrong with the children taking lunge lessons and with the children starting early like 3 not 10.

Breeding mares and bloodlines are handed down for generations and are even considered a suitable / desirable wedding gift!!!! That kind of thinking is what produces great horses and great riders.

HOWEVER Note to all: we are improving rapidly here in the US with both our breeding and our riding.

If you have the money to buy an upper level horse you can get the scores unless you are totally incompetent and then a great horse with a great trainer can still get them there. I know personally that there are several riders with the very deep pockets (I have watched them competing at GP) that are PAINFULL to watch. I wonder what they are doing at that level yet some judges know them and will give them the scores because it is politic to do so.

How about if they change the rule to include NO GRANDFATHERING AT ALL??

EVERYONE Re-Qualifies. :yes:

How many of those people sitting on the committee would change their tunes if everyone had to re-qualify?

Do you know that in Germany You have to QUALIFY to play a round of GOLF. I was really horrified when I heard this. I certainly would hate for that type of thing to happen here. Where would I send my husband on the weekends ????
OH Jeez maybe this is where the USEF wants to go?? That way everyone would have to qualify to ride!!!

rebecca yount
Dec. 25, 2007, 08:45 AM
DressagetoDay: I think you state concerns very well and I think you should send that exact post, word for word, to the members of the USEF Dressage Committee who are considering this rule change.

If you would like to do that but do not know how to send them all emails, or don't have their addresses, please email me at dryount@yahoo.com and I will get you the information.

I, and many others, have sent feedback to the committee. I think we, the "grassroots" riders, are making progress in letting them know the MANY concerns and implications regarding this proposal. We need to keep letting them know our objections and perhaps get them to consider problems they have not thought of. They are considering some changes in the initial, ill-advised "criteria" but need to keep hearing us.

freestyle2music
Dec. 25, 2007, 09:04 AM
When this system was developing in Holland I was one of the sponsors of the KNHS (Royal Dutch Equestrian Federation). BUT !!!!! It was a complete package, and we didn't focus on Germany or any other country.

Allthough this systems works pretty well in the Netherlands, you can't copy it 1 to 1 for the USA or any other country.

However you can use it as a guideline/blueprint for every separate region, all these regions will need their own specific details. How many competition riders does a region have, how many competitions are held in this region etc..

Theo

eurofoal
Dec. 26, 2007, 03:15 PM
Gotta love the part where the judges get grandfathered in. Reminds me of the Senate voting to give themselves huge pay raises.

Hazelnut
Dec. 26, 2007, 03:21 PM
I do hope people are sharing thier opinions with the USEF. That is what really matters.

eurofoal
Dec. 26, 2007, 03:45 PM
I do hope people are sharing thier opinions with the USEF. That is what really matters.

I have. I didn't go down the entire list and email everybody, though. Waddayathink? Are you sending it to the individuals?

Hazelnut
Dec. 26, 2007, 04:23 PM
I used the comment page provided on the proposed rules page and am hoping they will share my opinion with the Dressage Committee members.

I agree with your point, eurofoal...all the grandfathering is amazing.
When you're grandfathered, it's easy to establish qualification standards others will have to adhere to.

Dressage Art
Dec. 26, 2007, 04:28 PM
Posted by ARBgirl:

I'm not sure if this has been posted or not, I unfortunately am limited on my time on the board. I emailed the USDF dressage committee to share my thoughts on the proposal and was pleasently surprised when I got a number of replies from the committee. One committee member sent me a revised proposal which sounds much more realistic to me.
New points will be as follows:

58-59.99 1 point
60-62.99 2 points
63-64.99 3 points
65+ 4 points

You would only need 10 points to move up to the next division with at least one point from the highest test in the level. Change from four judges to three.

USEA Exemption noted as follows: USEA (Event riders) Members shall be exempt as follows:
Horse/Rider combinations at the Intermediate level and below will show at second level or lower, and shall not need qualifying points. Advanced, three and four star horse/ rider combinations who are on the list of qualified USEA riders shall be allowed to show at the MEDIUM level (Third/Fourth) without any qualifying points in dressage.

Sounds like we're making some progress.

Dressage Art
Dec. 26, 2007, 04:37 PM
Gotta love the part where the judges get grandfathered in. Reminds me of the Senate voting to give themselves huge pay raises.
This is not the first time that both riders and judges got grandfathered. For example, not so long ago, judges didn't even have to go thru any education and they didn't have to ride on certain level to be judges. When the rules got changed, existing judges got grandfathered in. You can see even now that some "older" judges who now judge GP - never even rode GP themselves. Now it's a prerequisite to show GP to judge GP ;) and rightly so. As I was told, "the time will take care of that". I guess that USEF and USDF tries to think forwards and change the future dressage quality, rather than deal with the past.

LexInVA
Dec. 26, 2007, 05:05 PM
This is definitely creating some disturbing but interesting nonetheless "what if" scenarios in my mind. As a whole it looks as if they are trying to create a clearer gap between the first two levels and the second two that would (in theory) lead to international-level competition which is something the USEF/USDF has full control over already if I'm not mistaken. So if this passes, they could (as I read it) have absolute control over the upper levels of dressage in this country. What that means exactly, I don't know, but I have a feeling it's going to seriously benefit the favorites of the USEF, the big names in Dressage, and make it very difficult for anyone not financed by wealth or supported by certain BNTs/BNRs to get into those levels on their own unless they are some Dressage Wunderkind. I guess they are clearly defining who are the amateurs and who the future of Dressage in this country should be with this sort of thing but that's just my two cents as someone who isn't involved in any of this. Since Dressage seems like a pretty small sport as it is, in this country, this could certainly make it "smaller" if there's no real gateway to what many might consider accomplishment in the sport beyond making the USEF A-B list. If they were going to set standards for all the levels, this could look a little less frightening to me but it looks as if the the powers that be are indeed focusing more on developing the future USET talent pool and leaving the rest to their own devices.

rebecca yount
Dec. 26, 2007, 06:07 PM
To those who were wondering:

YES, I do think everyone should email ALL the Dressage Committee members with your comments and concerns about this proposal.

It's not enough to just put comments on the USEF website.

I have received responses from some committee members.

PLEASE email all of them.

I personally think the whole thing is a bad idea. MUCH more work needs to be done on defining the "problem" and then designing solutions which are data-based.

sm
Dec. 26, 2007, 06:47 PM
These points will track with the rider, not with the horse. Once the rider has earned a designation, it will be permanent. There will be no need to re-qualify.


One more observation: lease a GP schoolmaster, get your points (imagine rider would have gotten 10 more points if they just stayed out of the horse's way and quit blocking the horse's shoulder). So now this rider is qualified to ride any horse at any level including a greenie or a "real" one who is not a saint? How so is this an improvement?

And this helps all our horses' welfare HOW? Please, spell it out for me. The GP horse is now a mess and needs to be tuned up by a good rider --- and the greenie horse is still without help. Hypothetical scenerio, of course.

Hazelnut
Dec. 26, 2007, 07:32 PM
First, this VENT is simply aimed at the USEF which, in my humble opinion, has shown disregard for their membership in the handling of this proposal.

This is not directed at members of this BB (thank you, because without this thread who would even have an inkling of the ramifications of the proposed rule 275-07. It is a blessing some members of this BB are better connected in the dressage world.)

THE main point in commenting on the USEF rule proposal 275-07 is that the rule proposal is VERY non-specific. Put guidelines in place by a certain date. That's it. What is it besides "this is not specific enough and should not be passed" should I be commenting on?

Discussing 10 points, 20 points, or what it would cost a rider in different parts of the USA to attain the goal is moot. What is the prosposed PLAN?The USEF has not sent me any information asking my opinion on proposed guidelines. They have NOT made the plan available on the USEF web site.

So I take information from an internet BB and trust the validity and make an argument to the USEF based on that information? From this scant and possibly inaccurate information I am to try to debate points of a program that will affect the future of dressage in America and most assuredly this humble AA?

Why are the Dressage Committee Meeting Minutes not available to me? Why is the proposed plan not outlined on the USEF website? For what purpose am I a member of USEF?

The Comment Response provided on the USEF proposed rule page is not good enough? The USEF cannot be trusted to pass my comment along to the Dressage Committee members? Sad, truely sad commentary that the elite riders and judges in the dressage world don't think the masses have a valid opinion.

I don't care if they grandfather certain categories; but I can assure you if one is grandfathered in, one views the impacts of the proposal a little differently. The USEF has quite a list to be grandfathered according to what is posted on this BB.

I prefer to deal in facts. I would like the USEF to share this proposal with the USEF members. They have a website. I respectfully ask that the details of the guidelines associated with proposed rule 275-07 be posted on the USEF website with an avenue for formal comments.

Respectfully Submitted,
vent over,
carry on...