A pony question

[BarbB]

Not a driver...just a curiosity question.

I know that a lot of people drive ponies for fun, but are there breeds of ponies that are competitive in combined driving?

[Renae]

Barb I think you will find almost every breed of pony under the sun doing combined driving and being competitive at it at some level, plus several small horses (such as Morgans and Arabians) showing in the pony division when they are small enough. Ifyou were to compare ponies to motorcycles i would say Fjords would be like "Hogs", while Hackney Ponies would be like "Crotch Rockets" so it would all depend on what you want :) At this year's World Pony Championships, of the ponies with breed listed, there were
13 Haflingers,
2 German Riding Pony,
11 Welsh Sec B,
21 Welsh,
9 Welsh Cob,
3 Welsh Sec D,
11 Welsh Sec C,
1 Welsh Sec A
2 welsh Mountain (note I know that a welsh mountain pony is a sec A, etc., just typing what was listed as the breed on the website)
5 New Forrest,
1 NARPS,
1 Deutsch Reitpo,
1 Landals,
1 Pottok,
11 Connemara,
1 PFS,
2 Westfalen,
4 Weser-Ems,
1 Baden-Wurttemberg,
1 Rhineland,
1 Holstein,
7 Fjord,
2 Morgan
1 Irish Cob
2 NFP
1 NRPS
5 NWPS
1 NSPS
7 Dartmoor
1 Polish Warmblood
1 Swedish Riding Pony
1 Welsh x Lipizzan
5 Norwegian Pony
3 DSP
9 Shetland Pony
So you can see, quite a variety!

[MySparrow]

No Polish Driving Ponies? :grin:

[Ashemont]

Give us time.... :winkgrin:

[Thomas_1]

BarbB,

its about the only useful thing you can do with a pony ;)

Seriously though a pony outgrown is often the motivation for learning to drive. Quite simply its the way of hanging on to one. I got into pony teams driving when "compelled" to keep my daughters Prince Philip Mounted Games ponies fit for them to compete with.

what the heck is a Polish Driving Pony???

[BarbB]

BarbB,
its about the only useful thing you can do with a pony ;)


I agree!
No, seriously...I would like to learn to drive. I have had a few lessons and enjoyed it a lot. But my riding preference is a hot TB and there is no way I am going to drive one of those.
So I was thinking, why have horses to drive if you can have as much fun with a pony? or two. And not have to stand on a step stool to groom them.

I had no idea that so many breeds actually competed in the combined driving.

[goodhors]

I agree!

I had no idea that so many breeds actually competed in the combined driving.

Those breeds listed were classified as PONIES, to meet the size requirements of World Pony Championships, regardless of breed origin.

If you are talking driving horses, you will find pretty much all breeds represented someplace. Some breeds are more popular, but folks will try driving any breed or mix of breeds.

Some folks like the horses better, a different mindset. Ponies are known for being "ponies". You don't have to stand on a stool to groom all horses, just get the horse model next up from pony-sized.

In choosing your breed, you should be looking at your chosen driving desires, so horse will fit the job description. Larger animals in CDE have more physical power for moving the load at speed, over hard marathon course, bigger extensions, yet not as flexible in cones or hazards. Others like smaller animals for quicker hazards, perhaps easier to collect in body, though he may have less power on hills. Maybe you just want to relax driving on trails or the backroads. You should have reasons for your choices in body styles. All of them need a real good brain.

Is there any place close to take driving lessons? Those are always a big help, before you really commit to buying anything.

[KellyS]

Hi BarbB!

Believe me, once you start driving, you'll be hooked. And ponies are just the best. Both Aaron and I came to combined driving from eventing, and the sports complement each other well (the knowledge base for training and conditioning). We've competed with both a Shetland cross (pets.webshots.com/photo/1373736959055731734dBydFG (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/1373736959055731734dBydFG)) and our current pony, a Welsh Sec. B (pets.webshots.com/photo/2597687170055731734DcfKts (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2597687170055731734DcfKts)). We love ponies and everything is easy to handle--from the size of the carriages to harnessing and handling.

Welcome and be prepared to become addicted to both ponies and a very fun sport. :)

Kelly

[Ashemont]

what the heck is a Polish Driving Pony???


AB Maggie Mae - aka Polish Driving Pony :D

having the conformation and movement of a little modern warmblood yet very refined, gaits characterized by a large overstride. Size is usually between 12 -13 hands and ponies are solid colored although white markings are often seen. Polish Driving Ponies are to be shown with full mane and tail but legs and head are neatly trimmed.

:lol:

[MySparrow]

AB Maggie Mae - aka Polish Driving Pony :D

having the conformation and movement of a little modern warmblood yet very refined, gaits characterized by a large overstride. Size is usually between 12 -13 hands and ponies are solid colored although white markings are often seen. Polish Driving Ponies are to be shown with full mane and tail but legs and head are neatly trimmed.

:lol:

So glad you were able to get the breed standard translated, Pat!:D

[Guin]

What in the world is a "NARP"??

[mares tails]

What in the world is a "NARP"??

North American Riding Pony ???

(googling "NARPS" didn't help)

[hluing]

By the way, if you combine all the German Riding Pony registries it comes to about 12 GRP's total...not the 2 that are listed. It just gets confusing listed as it is by different registires (such as Weser-Ems, Rhin. etc)

[whoopdeedo]

You guys are probably going to jump all over me, but I study videos
and note how the horse or pony seems to be perceiving the hazard ahead of it. I have watched the recent World Pony Champ video about five times.

Here we go.....the drivers of the Halflingers, seemed to loose time, because the pony(ies) were reading the hazard, trying to figure it out, to be safe.
The welsh/crosses/ sport ponies, just listened to their driver, just plain went for it no questions asked.
Is it an incorrect assumption to say the Halfies are a "thinking" breed??

[RidesAHaflinger]

Is it an incorrect assumption to say the Halfies are a "thinking" breed??


I hope not.

Signed,
Rides(and Drives)AHaflinger

:D:lol::winkgrin:

[goodhors]

How ponies go to a hazard could be a result of training techniques, experience, the individual animal, who is handling the reins. I have seen no hesitation or slowing by Haflingers whose drivers are bold, experienced in competition. This is driving both young animals or older, experienced CDE ponies.

We find that coming in rather slowly, may offer an opportunity to run out, gives animal too much time for thinking, not listening to driver. Slow approaches are for training sessions, not competition. A bold, but not always fast, approach, seems to give the animal confidence in their driver. Choices are made for the pony, he has no choices to make, driver is the choice maker on turns, speed.

We watch the same good and bad things happen with all breeds, there is no best or worst to choose as a driving partner. You choose a suitable pony/horse body style, maybe a breed, capable of doing the work you plan to do. Then shop to select an animal who fits that style, whom you can get along with.

[whoopdeedo]

Humor me as there are few people to discuss this topic with;
Very appreciative of the come-back,and agree and understand what you are saying, driver makes choice. And, proven fact that CDEs are not won with speed alone.
I am going to continue to watch the Haflingers at the competions, in person and in video, as there are quite a few coming along..... and I really do like them.
In theory, I am looking at the difference in split seconds of the driver's decision, and the pony's decision to respond. Right now I am of the opinion, there maybe an "absolute" in their distinctive being, that makes a difference in performance, than that of a little more "warmer" breed of horse. Something to take into consideration when picking the pony for the job, or for your personal choice of what you prefer to be "your type" of pony.
For an example with dog's, the Rottweiler's approach to an encounter/problem/perception is different, than say a... hmmm... a terrier.
Other than physiological differences amongst breeds, there are differences as to how they are "wired", cogniatively speaking? Hafis look to me to be "intelligent", like a "double-checker". A person that trains them and is around them would be the best judge of their "character". What say you RidesaHaflinger?

[LostFarmer]

I am personally not a huge Haffie fan. I have seen some great ones and respect them as such but personally I don't care for them. Even the ones I consider great ponies they just aren't my thing. The ones I have trained or driven tend to be more calculative and less blindly obedient. In other words if it is their idea you might talk them into doing things. Welsh to me are more forward and aggressive and forward. I have seen few welsh ponies you ask for more go, whoa maybe, but go is pre programed. Haffies tend to be the opposite. Not bad or good just different.

[Dreamboat Annie]

Question....can mini horses, the larger ones, compete in CDE's in the small pony division? I have a 3 year old 37 inch (and still probably growing) mini appy, and would love to teach him to drive, and show him in pleasure, and possibly CDE's one day...:)

[Wallyze]

There are 38 inch Shetlands competing in the UK successfully at club level. But they are Island type.

[Renae]

Question....can mini horses, the larger ones, compete in CDE's in the small pony division? I have a 3 year old 37 inch (and still probably growing) mini appy, and would love to teach him to drive, and show him in pleasure, and possibly CDE's one day...:)

Sometimes the Very Small Equine (VSE) division is 34" and under, other shows/events choose to make their VSE division 39" and under, so if your pony stays under 39" you may possibly be ablt to compete in the VSE division.

[RidesAHaflinger]

Hafis look to me to be "intelligent", like a "double-checker". A person that trains them and is around them would be the best judge of their "character". What say you RidesaHaflinger?



Yes, that's a pretty good description of the breed in general.

I think this is a conundrum with Haflingers in CDE. People are drawn to the breed because they often do possess that intelligence and ability to assess risk and proceed safely. They do generally have a tendency towards self-preservation and that, in turn, helps keep the driver safe. On the other hand, to really be competitive, your horse has to relish living on the edge and being a risk-taker. I'm not sure you can have it both ways: i.e. having a horse that you can trust to keep you safe and at the same time having a horse that will set aside that native intelligence and throw caution to the wind and dive in headfirst.

The other fact you have to contend with is that you are not likely to get the top scores in dressage. Even the so-called 'modern' more refined version of the breed lacks the suspension and loftiness of gaits that impresses judges. Conformation also limits their ability to extend their gaits. Haflingers in general have workmanlike gaits and flat-kneed movement. They get it done without a lot of fanfare. :D On the other hand, I often see Haflingers make up in the marathon and cones what they lack in dressage. They have an agility and economy of movement that belies their conformation. People are often surprised at how quick they are in the turns when they appear overall to not be very fast. Final scores often reflect all of the above. :lol:

For myself, at my age, they are exactly what I want. Safety is high on my agenda. If I were younger and more of a risk-taker or if I had a more burning desire to compete and win at the higher levels of CDE, I would probably consider another breed.

[Thomas_1]

Is it an incorrect assumption to say the Halfies are a "thinking" breed?? No way. Indeed I'd say they're hard of thinking!

If they had a brain cell then they could be dangerous! :winkgrin:

Seriously hafflingers are VERY forgiving and VERY steady but they're not exactly known for original thought and thinking ahead. Indeed that is what makes them so good for novice or nervous drivers.

I'd personally describe them as biddable and willing to please though rather than intelligent.

To me intelligent implies an ability to think for itself and figure things out and whilst with competition horses and confident handler/driver/rider, that's a huge advantage it can be a scarey or even dangerous combination.

With the likes of a hafflinger, you can get it wrong, having time to think and you're unlikely to get in much trouble. With a welsh A or B or a t/b or an arab you think "should I" and its too late, your horse has overshot or done it, whilst you were deliberating!

A hafflinger will never die for you (and that's good in many ways if you need looking after), a t/b will (and that's good if you are good enough to take on the responsibility of looking after your horse but if not, regrettably often not good for horse nor rider/driver)

And from the dog perspective, and to emphasise what I mean: I consider german shepherd dogs to be obedient - you tell them what you want and they do it. They obey. You ask them to walk to heel (once they're properly trained) and they'll wrap themselves round your leg till you tell them they can go.

I consider golden retrievers to be intelligent you tell them and if you are lucky then they look at you with a "erm and why should I, what is in it for me". If you ask them and make what you want attractive and fun, then away they go and do what you want willingly and joyfully. If you ask them to walk to heel, they won't pull and they'll behave well, but no way will they wrap round your leg staring into your face waiting for the next instruction. They'll be watching the world go by and seeing what else is fun. But they will be biddable and (sort of) do what you want when you want it.

However if you insist on sending them out for a bird you've just shot and its a runner (so wounded and hits the ground and runs), then your golden retriever will disobey you when you're pointing and insisting you know where it landed and because its intelligent enough and free spirited enough to know that it knows best and its going to be much better to ignore the stupid handler and use its brain to do what instinctively motivates it.

I'd say though that in many ways its irrelevent looking at the breed of equine. Its NOT that important. What is important is the combination of horse and rider or horse and driver.

My best ever fei horse (singles, pairs and tandems, WEG winner singles and pairs) was absolutely undriveable to all bar 4 notable exceptions. My point is that the most talented top winning horse is nothing in the hands of a mediocre or novice driver. Likewise an advanced successful competition driver can get a heck of a lot more out of a "steady Eddy" horse than the average driver.

Here we have expressions "horses for courses" or "one man's meat is another man's poison". They mean respectively that some animals suit some circumstances or what suits one doesn't suit all.

However all things being equal in the hands of an advanced competitive high level driver, you're less likely than more likely to see hafflingers way up there.

[Drive NJ]

VSE/Pony height does not vary. I don't have the rulebook in front of me now, but VSEs (which include both mini registries and some small ponies) are up to a specific height. Over that height your "mini" is a Pony. Just as your Morgan, App, Quarter Horse or whatever is a pony if he is under whatever centimeter they chose to represent 14.2. Its not the breed, its the height.

I'd send you to the ADS for the heights involved, but for some strange reason they've now placed their rulebook in a "members only" section.

[Rayman421]

Scroll to bottom of page for nice pics of Shetland Driving

http://www.emeraldglennfarm.com/atomic's_page.htm


I own his 1/2 brother and am hoping he'll be half as good! :)

[whoopdeedo]

Thank you all for your input. You all are very knowledgable.
Thomas, that is why I put in quotations the more cognative references, as correct English and science doesn't "personify" the animal mind. But, I myself am limited describing what I see using my own frame of reference.
So what's it get me a cup of coffee or a seat on the bus? Nope, just satisfaction in loving the equine, and understanding what makes it tick.
Don't hold back ya'll.....your experiences are treasures to those that appreciate them.

On height, our new 8 yr old addition is 39" a good strong mini, so at 39" can he stay in the VSE classes? The rule book says 39" and above are pony, and "upto" 39 " is VSE, kind of confusing if you want to stay inVSE.

[Renae]

VSE/Pony height does not vary. I don't have the rulebook in front of me now, but VSEs (which include both mini registries and some small ponies) are up to a specific height. Over that height your "mini" is a Pony. Just as your Morgan, App, Quarter Horse or whatever is a pony if he is under whatever centimeter they chose to represent 14.2. Its not the breed, its the height.

I'd send you to the ADS for the heights involved, but for some strange reason they've now placed their rulebook in a "members only" section.

USEF Rulebook is available online for anyone.

CARRIAGE PLEASURE DRIVING DIVISION
CP109 Classifications by Size.
5. Very small equines are open to any horse 34” or under. At the discretion of show management very small equines measuring no more than 39” may be included in these classes.
6. Very small equines may be combined with ponies/horses in existing pleasure driving classes, or at the discretion of show management and where sufficient entries allow, may be shown in their own division.

[War Admiral]

True, BUT remember that the USEF rules for Carriage Pleasure Driving are NOT always the same as the ADS rules.

I'm not a current ADS member, so have no access to current rule book, but I bet that's where the 39" is coming from - IIRC.

[Renae]

True, BUT remember that the USEF rules for Carriage Pleasure Driving are NOT always the same as the ADS rules.

I'm not a current ADS member, so have no access to current rule book, but I bet that's where the 39" is coming from - IIRC.

In other words, as I originally said, read the prize book well for the show you intend to enter ;)

[Dreamboat Annie]

Thanks everyone for the input, I am willing to bet that my mini will out grow his mini status, and become a very small pony, over or at 38 inches....which means that I will be able to show him at the Maryland Pony Breeder's shows, and maybe eventually in CDE's in his height division....I hope to have a harness made for him this spring...he should be 4 years old by then...:)

[Thomas_1]

If you were in the UK the only thing described as a miniature horse would be the falabella.

The thing that makes it a miniature horse is its genetics. Coming from the original falabella from Argentina and as a horse its proportioned like a horse and particularly relative length of cannon bone and when their foals they are like horses with longer legs relative to their size. Rather than how ponies are - ponies as foals are just like little versions of how they end up.

We don't call small ponies "minis" and its terminology that has often got me totally confused when visiting American forums

[goeslikestink]

me to

but we have other breeds that can drive as well as the ones listed

like the fell and dales-- they are both hardy and smaller than the welsh d
but just as tough -

plus small ponies exmoor and dartmoor new forest, highland, connimara

we been blessed with such a choice of good working ponies and mixed types of british breeds
from very small ie shetland to very large shire

and most drive as well as ride

[miraclewelsh]

So I was thinking, why have horses to drive if you can have as much fun with a pony? or two. And not have to stand on a step stool to groom them.


Absolutely! You would have so much fun with a pony (or ponies!) :-) Go for it!

[prince and ponies]

I am curious as to why the hackney pony isn't mentioned here as much as the welsh or shetlands or the other pony breeds-are they too hot blooded to be grouped with the others or just not as popular for competing?

[Drive NJ]

As has been said here before... American minis are mostly of Shetland origin but set up two registries for types/heights as miniature horses. Early on there was a lot of visible dwarfism visible in the breeding, but now there is a lot less of that.

The Minis who can and do compete in CDEs in their own division (VSE to include small ponies as well) are typically the taller of the minis. Most of the folks who are doing this are serious about what they are doing and have their minis as trained, conditioned and ready as the rest of the competitors. The variation in the rules for minis came about because of a proposed ban of minis and small ponies in CDE because of some health/fitness episodes and the preception that they were too small to be asked to do the work.

The mini people worked to put together a competition they could do that wasn't too burdensome on organizers to provide with a regular horse trial and the rest is current history. :yes:

[pricestory]

I've seen some very successful Hackney ponies competing in CDE. I've been surprised at some, while working the vet box, coming in with great tpr after a very challenging course. Their movement is more up and down instead of forward which means that they take a lot more steps to finish a course than a flater gaited pony but they seem to be able to get conditioned well. Our own Sam, who we havne't heard much from lately, competed a Hackney pony with great success.

[goodhors]

I've seen some very successful Hackney ponies competing in CDE. I've been surprised at some, while working the vet box, coming in with great tpr after a very challenging course. Their movement is more up and down instead of forward which means that they take a lot more steps to finish a course than a flater gaited pony but they seem to be able to get conditioned well. Our own Sam, who we havne't heard much from lately, competed a Hackney pony with great success.

Sorry, I have to totally disagree with how many steps a Hackney takes compared to flat moving ponies. In a good, naturally shod Hackney, he is covering as much ground each stride, as an equal-sized flat mover, with both doing a trot. The knee and hock action is a fooler to the eye. His raising his knees during gait, gives him a bicycle type movement, which is extremely efficient for covering ground.

Locally, we have the MSU horse center, where they have done lots of gait analysis. Measuring strides, the horse with knee action is seldom shorter strided than the low movers at a trot. I would NEVER want to have to chase the Hackney pony trotting away, you WON'T catch him. Now if he cantered, he would be easy to catch! No speed cantering, to run away!

Bad training for showy action, poor shoeing, horse being silly, can get a Hackney pony moving badly. Then he thinks such bad moving is what you want, trained into him. You might see double-striding in front, walking behind, prancing in place, bad rhythm of feet, so he really is doing a sewing machine impression. All up and down, no forward at all.

Hackneys, pony and horse, both have good sized feet for their height. Need the longer toe as a NORMAL fit, allows sole depth to protect the bones in hoof. Same with Saddlebred horses, carry a bigger hoof than many folks are used to seeing as the "normal" foot under them.
Saddlebreds too, cover a HUGE amount of ground in their trot gaits, ridden or driven, they can FLY! Doesn't matter if their knees are up to their chins, leg STILL REACHES WAY OUT to hit the ground on the good movers. Lots of over-reach with the hinds for long strides.

Hackney ponies have been considered "fancy" for a long time. More expensive, limited venues for the common folk to show at. Not a real common breed or available in many places. What did become available were the ring failures, brains fried, bad gaited, hard to deal with, so they got a bad image in places. People avoided them. They never were kid ponies, took real riders to manage them, show well. Something most small kids are not. The adults showing have to like holding fireballs in their hands! CDE is recent, before that all pony driving was ring classes. Pony showing was shrinking in many places as older folks got out of equines. Our Fair was lucky if they had 2 ponies in each driving class of light harness. Fair is doing lots better with Pleasure Driving's new popularity.

Hackney ponies can compete with any of the other breeds. Macy and Billie Hill showed Hackney ponies very successfully in the earlier times of CDE. Always looked SO COOL, with the big knee action, flying around the hazards and Cones. As mentioned, Sami did well with her Hackney pony, but wanted to move up in size of animal. There are other Hackney ponies around, you just may not recognize them when you see them going if they are not dressed "Hackney style".

Hackney was bred to be a road horse, travel at speed in front of a vehicle. The knee action was desired so they didn't trip on rough surfaces. Same with many older road horse breeds, Gelderlanders, Fresians, Morgans, Saddlebreds. Often more driven than ridden. Knee was more desired than flat movers, who did trip on rough going. There was the perception of "fancy driving horse" with the knee action, made them desireable. Flatter movers only got popular with much IMPROVED roads, racing, that allowed them to be more speedy. Hackney's later history shows breed got split into pony and horse, but both sections shared common blood for years.

[Thomas_1]

A good old fashioned hackney pony is indeed a tremendous driving pony. Sadly though IMO a type has developed that does have over exagerated upward action.

[Ashemont]

Right on Thomas and GH... if this isn't covering ground I don't know what is!

Yes... it's Sami and Pita... and MY Christmas present (the carriage :D)

[ImaDriver]

As Prince Philip of England said when asked if ponies were easier to drive than horses: Driving horses and ponies is not too different, except when something goes wrong, remember ponies do it Faster! Never underestimate the power of a pony!
AS to the ADS height, I believe it is 39 inches and below. Except for VSE's, there is no division as to size of ponies, no small medium large. They all compete against one another.
AS to Haflingers they were not originaly bred to go anywhere fast, but sure and steady. There are people breeding a much lighter body type that can deal with the "heat" issues that draft type ponies have to deal with, and there are now at least 2 distinct body types out there. You must deeply condition a deep mucled draft type pony such as the older style Haffy, pushing them to move quickly over long distances. It might be better to get a breed of pony that can cover all bases.:yes::):winkgrin:

[kokovoko]

This questions has prompted me to say yes, yes, yes! I've been competing in CDEs for several years, and ponies are SO much FUN! Easy to harness and control, and I've beaten horses times and scores on a regular basis. I drive prelim pairs with a couple pairs of wonderful Swedish Gotland ponies. They are so intelligent and willing, and trust me with their heart and souls. They DO look at what's coming, and while they always listen to me, they can also think for themselves (and do).

So if you're looking for a specific breed that's great for CDEs, look at Gotlands. In Sweden they are used for harness racing, and they seem to take naturally to harness and driving, and they are sweet and kiind, unlike many ponies.

See them at http://www.gotlands.net or http://www.gotlandponies.org

Of course, I'm biased (I breed them) but they truly are perfectly suited for cde ponies.

[Just My Style]

I hope not.

Signed,
Rides(and Drives)AHaflinger

:D:lol::winkgrin:

I would love to believe that my haflinger is a "thinker' but I kind of doubt it. I am pretty sure that her only serious thinking is done when she is trying to figure out how to get in to the feed room, open the pasture gate or when the next meal is coming. :winkgrin:

[RidesAHaflinger]

Nice to have you back! Hope all is well with you and Gwen. My guess is you'll find out what a thinker she is once you get out and about with her. Until then all you're really seeing is the cleverness that all Haflingers seem to possess when it comes to dismantling gates, fences, padlocks, etc. I cover some ground in the carriage with my boys on almost a daily basis and when they tell me something is amiss, I listen to them. They're rarely wrong. Thinkers? Yep, Thomas' opinion notwithstanding. :winkgrin: