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JackSprats Mom
Nov. 27, 2007, 11:17 PM
So you may remember a couple months ago I wrote that my horse was balking a little in the arena. The advice I was given (and which I knew I had to do) was ride him through it. So I did, I knocked back some dutch courage, put a western sdaddle on him and took him to the round pen. Two days later problem solved :)

It was great, the last couple of months he been forward, responsive and just plain wonderful. At last I had a great horse...or so I thought:(

I wanted him to learn to jump this winter, and as I don't jump decided I should put a couple of competent riders on him so that he learnt to get used to other folks riding him before I took him up to the hunter/jumper barn. He balked with them, threw little tantrums but in the end worked fine.

I got on him the next day and BOY was he a whole other horse. He pitched a fit, wouldn't move, struck out, kicked the whole nine yards. I stayed calm and tried to just ride him through it, constantly asking him to go forward but nothing, nada, zip. Thankfully a friend was walking by at that time and grabbed a lunge whip and cracked it behind him and got him moving. After that he was fine for that day.

Next day, decide as he's going to be a butt about this I would return to the round pen with him. He throws another tantrum, won't move regardless of what I do (tried leg, spurs, vocal, but I admit no whip, as he sees it coming and just bucks but doens't go). Friend walks into the middle of the round pen (no whip) and I get 'go'. Take him out to the arena and again requires someone behind him with a lunge whip to get go but once going he;s fine.

Saturday go back into the arena, get on by the mounting block and fence and again he won't move :mad::mad::mad:. With hind sight I know it was a stupid place to pick a fight but I didn't want to get off him and have him 'win'. So I start asking forward again, squeeze, kick, KICK, he bucks, strikes ,throws his head around, nothing new but no forward. The he rears :eek: flips himself over and comes down on top of me :eek::eek: Thankfully I missed hitting the fence and mounting block but think I rolled close enough to the fence that he didn't hurt me- scared the bejesus outta me though. Got back on him and he was anxious but forward, rode him till he was settled called it a day.

Sunday we went for our usual 2 hour conditioning hill ride (he's always pretty darn good and always forward on the trails). He was good.

Monday rode him indoors as it was frozen outside and he immediately went forward. Now this is where I'm not sure if he scared himself saturday and learnt his lesson OR if he is just 'up' in the indoor arena as I've only ridden him in there twice in the last year.

Today he had off

Please keep your fingers crossed that tomorrow is good and he's over this.

I'm just SO frustrated with him at the moment, I thought he was over all this tantrum stuff and was going so wonderfully. I now know that I should not have put other folks on him just yet, my mistake. I also know that untill he's over this I will mount in the middle of the arena away from walls as that fall was WAY to close for comfort (someone was watching over me for sure).

I am going to work through this with him as I believe he is an incredibly talented horse and when we work well together its amazing.

I want to hear your stories of your nightmare 'dream' horse that once the marble fell in the slot has turned into the wonderful horse you knew would be there one day- give me hope!!!:D

(info- he's 4.5 year old Arab stallion (as I know someone will say geld him!)who has one month now to get back to where he was otherwise he'll be a 4.5 year old gelding:winkgrin:- Also, in all fairness to him, this is his bad period, he has been so wonderful over all to handle, ride and be around. The trouble is I only post when I have an issue with him and not on a daily basis when I finish the ride and go 'WOW' with a grin on my face anhd can't believe how amazing he is)

Thanks for letting me vent, now give me hope :)

ride-n-tx
Nov. 27, 2007, 11:26 PM
wow, i am glad you weren't hurt! i don't have any personal stories to add, but just wanted to say that i admire your courage :). i have heard that it is not uncommon for some young horses to go through a phase where they are a little unwilling and testy but then just work out of it... kind of like teenagers! best of luck!!

atr
Nov. 27, 2007, 11:29 PM
Goodness, here are so many potential causes...

He's a 4.5 year old. The Equine equivalent of a teenager. He's a young stallion. The weather is getting brisker.

And I have to ask... He's still growing and maturing. Are you absolutely sure he's not sore anywhere?

You know, I think you are asking quite a lot of a 4.5 year old Arab. They ARE slow to mature. Personally, if he were mine, I'd be inclined to back off a bit through the winter and let him grow up some more.

lstevenson
Nov. 27, 2007, 11:35 PM
When he won't go, can you turn him? Or at least turn his head around to your foot? If you can get his head around, you can get his feet moving. Do NOT just sit and kick this type of horse, as he will only shut down and balk more. Stallions and mares especially shut down when the leg is overused.

What I would do is teach him on the ground to have a huge forward response to a voice command or the cluck. In a round pen or on the lunge, make your clucking noise and then go after him with a lunge whip. Be consistant and soon he will run forward when he hears this noise. Don't ride him, and just do this for a while until his response is completely ingrained.

Then when you go back to riding, set yourself up for success by having someone on the ground with a lunge whip. But YOU make him go with your cluck NOT your leg, and if he doesn't instantly go forward, have your helper go after him with a whip.

When this is going well, you use the clucking noise to get him to move forward off of your leg. If you always set yourself up for success by having someone on the ground with a lunge whip for the first few weeks of riding, you should be fine. The habit will be broken. Just do groundwork re-establishing his immediate response to the cluck on days you can't get someone to help you.

I'll tell you a story about an extremely difficult horse I have had in a minute...

JackSprats Mom
Nov. 27, 2007, 11:45 PM
ATR- He's not sore, its the first thing I thought of and I checked him all over, he has regular chiropractic work to check for the beginnings of anything PLUS I think its too much of a coincidance that he was fine with me 3 days prior, someone else rides him and then he throws a tantrum. (only area I'm going to have checked this week is his teeth but he has always had regular dental work)

As for asking too much, he's training level. All I ask for is walk trot and a little canter. This is not a stress issue for him, if for one second I thought it was I would back off. Its a temper tantrum. He's also a horse that needs to have a job, he gets incredibly cranky to handle if I just put him out for 2-3 days. He seems to be much happier (normally) in light work 5 days a week.


When he won't go, can you turn him? Or at least turn his head around to your foot? If you can get his head around, you can get his feet moving. Do NOT just sit and kick this type of horse, as he will only shut down and balk more. Stallions and mares especially shut down when the leg is overused.
tried this, he just stands there and will bite my feet. He doesn't disengage his hind end and move (or at least not often) and if he does, and I praise him for it, he stops again. I whole heartedly agree though that he shuts down with the leg- I was just at the end of what I could think of :(

He's accurate on the ground, walks trots canters halts immediately, not the same under saddle :(

I will not work him now without a grounds person so that he doesn't learn to pitch fits but goes forward and I am hoping a week or so of this will cure it !!

lstevenson
Nov. 28, 2007, 12:10 AM
15 years ago I bought a TB off of the track as a 3 yo, and I was told that "he could be a bit bratty." Well, I found out when I started to train him that he had all kinds of tricks up his sleeve. He liked to rear up and stand there, and he could stay up there for an amazing length of time. He would sometimes put his head down to the ground and run backwards at a high rate of speed for several hundred feet.

But his FAVORITE, and the one he did for many years, was to spin around (no matter what speed we were going) and face the opposite direction from where I wanted to go, and plant his feet and absolutely REFUSE to turn around. This would show up on almost a daily basis until he was about 6 or 7 yo, when I finally tried a new tactic to fix it.

Instead of fighting with him (kicking, whipping, and trying to turn him around) which only made him really violent - rearing, leaping, running me through trees, ect., I tried reverse psychology. When he spun around and braced himself, ready for a good fight, I would sit there relaxed and not ask him to do anything. He was shocked, as he really expected a good fight. After a minute or two of standing there with me asking for nothing, when I asked him to turn around, he did. Sometimes it would take us 2 hours to go 100 feet across a field, but he started to lose interest in his game.

After that, he would do it now and then but not every day like before. And as long as he couldn't get a rise out of me (I would make myself not get mad at him, and just ignore it, letting him face whichever way he wanted, and OMG was that hard :lol:), each tantrum would be over pretty quickly, and he began doing it less and less.

So if you are looking for a success story, this horse ended up being long listed for the Olympics in Eventing. :D After he started behaving himself, he was a horse everybody wanted. He went from being close to going for dog food when he was younger to bringing me offers of $100,000. He was a cross country machine, but was good at all three phases. He turned out to be the best horse I ever had, and ever will have I'm sure, in my lifetime. I'm soooo glad I stuck with him when he was trying to kill me every day as a young horse!

Remember, the best and smartest horses are often the most difficult to train, but they are often worth the trouble. :winkgrin:

lstevenson
Nov. 28, 2007, 12:14 AM
He's accurate on the ground, walks trots canters halts immediately, not the same under saddle :(



Ah, but this is NOT the same as having a sharp reaction to the clucking noise. You should train him to, and expect him to RUN immediately when he hears it, the gait does not matter. When that reaction is ingrained, it will work for you under saddle.

Chipngrace
Nov. 28, 2007, 12:22 AM
I know this sounds obvious, but have you had his teeth checked lately? I have a 4 year old and while he wasn't complaining, it only took 6 months from one float to another for his mouth to become an absolute MESS. He had sharp points, teething, ulcers on his cheeks. He had been floated in the spring, and was this bad by fall, they were just done a couple weeks ago and he's healing up and doing fine. I asked the vet if that was freakish that they got so bad in 6 months time, and he said not at this age and that he wishes more people would get them done as often as I do.

He also mentioned they can get growing pains at this age, so the days he seemed quiet and owly could be just that, but he said the work I do (light arena work and trail riding) are fine for that.

JackSprats Mom
Nov. 28, 2007, 01:05 AM
Chip- His teeth had crossed my mind and its something I'm going to have looked at in the next week just so I can cross of any and all pain issue.

Thing is, I would expect, if it were teeth, for him to be just as bratty out on the trails. Plus once I get him forward he is fine, not resistant through his jaw or poll. Its his initial tantrum I have to work through.


Remember, the best and smartest horses are often the most difficult to train, but they are often worth the trouble. :winkgrin: See now that is what I'm crossing my fingers hoping!

Plus I had wondered what would happen if I sat there and did nothing, may be worth a try who knows.


Ah, but this is NOT the same as having a sharp reaction to the clucking noise. You should train him to, and expect him to RUN immediately when he hears it, the gait does not matter. When that reaction is ingrained, it will work for you under saddle. kk I will try this, LOL have t find a noise though that I won't duplicate by accident :eek:

Sabine
Nov. 28, 2007, 01:11 AM
check his sacrum- I bet he is very sore there.! Horses are NOT stupid- they act like this because they have discomfort- this could be as easy as a pinched nerve. (probably cyatic(sp?) nerve)...nonetheless I had this kind of a horse and it didn't stop until we fixed the phsycial problem....

Editted to add: and yes he lunged also perfectly- it has to do with the weight of the rider and a sacrum issue- where the cyatic nerve starts and runs down his hind legs...the pain is massive- the reaction is massive as well- manifests itself sometimes a bit like being coldbacked...

Atheta21
Nov. 28, 2007, 01:36 AM
I have a horse that had the same problem. He would plant his feet instead of going forward and then if I asked for any forward he would rear almost flipping over backwards. If I asked for side ways he would just turn and look at my boot. It was not every ride and it seemed like when he passed the in gate it triggered it, I though is was completely behavioral because he has a reputation for being able to buck people off. I took him to the vet and she said he had leaky gut. He was on a glucosamine supplement and it was leaking out though is gut into his body and his spleen was VERY swollen along with any part of his body that had to do with detox. Shock to me, I had NO idea!:eek:
We took him off the supps repaired his gut and he is doing much better now. :)
He was also out in his sacrum from holding his back funny from all the pain in his body. He holds himself completely different now!
He did also end up 4th in the USDF First Level Freestyle Challenge in '07! So there was a good ending!

BumbleBee
Nov. 28, 2007, 01:58 AM
I have a lot of Arab experience and I would never recommend picking a fight with one. They are great but they have way more fight and determination than we have. To win with them you either have to outsmart them.

From the way you describe it (not wanting to work him without a ground person) it sounds like you haven't been listening to him and have insisted on fighting him.

Start over : you must always remain calm and cool tempered with an Arab other wise they will out think you. Do NOT loose your temper or try to fix things in one ride that just isn't how this breed is wired. Out think and out last is the game.

Refusing to move forward without cause is something a smart Arab would do. Let go of any preconceived ideas and just get movement from him. Forget forward climb on and go side ways/backwards/or even get him to shift his weight. Take your wins where you can get them and just keep building on them.

Now about what one of the previous posters said about pulling his head around. You stated that he will "just try to bite your boot". You are not doing the technique correctly then. The point of turning them is to pull them off balance so they HAVE no choice but to move. I would give that another try.

I am a bit concerned that you have an Arabian so upset that it is trying to unload you. They are an incredibly tolerant breed you have to be ignoring their cues pretty seriously to get one to this point.

It may be wisest for you to find a experience Arabian trainer. One who LIKES the quirks and special challenges that come with the breed. It may cost money but knowing how their minds work will save you lost of stress and time over the long haul.

Good luck and be careful.

BTW If you contact your an Arab breeder in your state they should be able to help you find someone close to you.

J-Lu
Nov. 28, 2007, 05:04 AM
Something else to consider...

All seemed well in your story until he went to the jumper people. Do you know how they trained him? Did something happen in the jumping riding that somehow hurt his sacrum or back or ruined his confidence?

J.

J-Lu
Nov. 28, 2007, 05:05 AM
Something else to consider...

All seemed well in your story until he went to the jumper people. Do you know how they trained him? Did something happen in the jumping riding that somehow hurt his sacrum or back or ruined his confidence?

J.

angel
Nov. 28, 2007, 06:49 AM
I wish I were close to you, and could see exactly what is happening. But, from 30 years of having Arabians, I can tell you that something is wrong. The horse is not just being a "brat." I know that you are frustrated at this point, and I am very glad that neither you nor the horse were injured when he flipped. You both were very, very lucky.

Tell us about your saddle and about the bit you are using. How is your bridle adjusted? What is your level of previous experience? How far along was this horse when you bought him? Maybe you have gone over all this before on this board, but let's try one more time, as I know that something is wrong, and his only way of telling you is by what has happened.

partlycloudy
Nov. 28, 2007, 07:11 AM
Heres my good ending story...
Had a lovely black appendix qh mare. was very flighty to start, but came along nicely in arena. Hacking was another story. she would spook and spin at the drop of a hat (or any other thing for that matter) I walked home cursing so many times! I finally said this is it! Either this mare stops this stupid behaviour or she's going down the road to the 'cowboys'.
So one sat when I had absolutely nothing else to do, I saddled her up and worked her in the arena. Then went for a hack. Everytime she spooked, back to the ring she went to work! Back and forth I went. We only stopped for some lunch... for me! not her! Finally after 4 hours of riding, she walked out on the trail like an angel and NEVER gave me any problem after that. In fact, she became the best hacking horses ever.
So sometimes being more stubborn than them will work :yes:

ToN Farm
Nov. 28, 2007, 07:49 AM
check his sacrum- I bet he is very sore there.! Horses are NOT stupid- they act like this because they have discomfort- this could be as easy as a pinched nerve. (probably cyatic(sp?) nerve)...nonetheless I had this kind of a horse and it didn't stop until we fixed the phsycial problem.
and yes he lunged also perfectly- it has to do with the weight of the rider and a sacrum issue- where the cyatic nerve starts and runs down his hind legs...the pain is massive- the reaction is massive as well- manifests itself sometimes a bit like being coldbacked.



I took him to the vet and she said he had leaky gut. He was on a glucosamine supplement and it was leaking out though is gut into his body and his spleen was VERY swollen along with any part of his body that had to do with detox.

The above quotes are from two different posters. I am interested in how these problems were diagnosed, especially the leaky gut.

farmeress
Nov. 28, 2007, 08:04 AM
I specialize in "problem horses. I was GIVEN a top hunter since the pros had given up on him for balking. He had no health or pain issue. I tried riding through his problem in my Dressage seat...no. He did not want to go forward and his hissy fits were very athletically done.
One day I grabbed a small book, cleared my day...tacked him and waited it out....read nearly the whole book, but I would not get off the saddle until we did ten minutes of work. We did. Next day it was a 15 minute "wait out".
I took him for a hack (rarely done for this boy), rode the spooks, waited out the balks....in one week he was fine.
Dillion now has a new mom and does not balk, buck or have hissy fits...under saddle....just do not tease him with a carrot.

Puddin Pie
Nov. 28, 2007, 08:42 AM
You probably don't want the bad ending story, but lets face facts, these things happen-mine flipped over and broke his neck and had to be put down. So please be careful with yourself!!!!

Holly Jeanne
Nov. 28, 2007, 08:42 AM
I'm not an expert by any means but my 4.5 yo mare has done some of those things tho not to the same extent. She recently got much worse and then started snapping at me when I was grooming. I raised this girl and she has also enjoyed grooming. I finally concluded that some of it was hormones this fall as all three of my mares have been grumpy and sensitive. With the 4 yo, I have to really concentrate on watching for signs she's going to stop (she pops her shoulder out first). Kicking does nothing but she does respond to seat. If necessary, I've given her a whack or two with the dressage whip. She kicks back at it and then goes forward. I'm also a fan of the bore them to tears method mentioned by Farmeress.

grayarabpony
Nov. 28, 2007, 09:52 AM
Did he actually go to a jumping barn or did he just do this after a couple of other people rode him?

How scary that he flipped over. I'm glad neither one of you was hurt. That extreme reaction makes me think that either testosterone is getting the best of his good sense, or he's hurting somewhere. Of course if he's good on the trails that does make a physical cause seem less likely. But don't underestimate the power of testosterone -- I've seen some bad results with my gelding and certain male human handlers, which left me wondering who should have been gelded....

classicsporthorses
Nov. 28, 2007, 09:57 AM
I think you have received some sage advice. Just to add a bit more. Possibly, just possibly, he is bored out of his mind. What I mean by that is that possibly he's saying "umm, we've done this, I get it, let's move on".

With horses that are too smart for their own good, I vary their routine quite a bit. One of my own fillies is like this and if you ask her to walk forward, she'll go ONE STEP and stop and look back at you from under her eyelids as you sit on her back.

So I vary her workouts and add new things to engage her mind. I do this a lot of the horses instead of going around in endless circles.

Can you ground drive? If so, do that. Throw some poles on the ground at varying spots, put a barrel out, do some simple fun "gaming". Let him have some "fun" while he is working.

slpeders
Nov. 28, 2007, 10:26 AM
I was at a clinic just a few weeks ago where a rider of a 4-5 yo stallion was having similar issues. The horse would put on the brakes for no apparent reason and prefer to go up. The clinician said this is something she'd seen before in young stallions -- kind of a teen rebellion -- and suggested long-lining him through the balks. Part of it is balance issues -- his body is growing and changing and he's challenged to balance Himself, much less him AND a rider (whose balance changes on top of him!). She suggested letting him figure out his feet, so to speak, on the ground for a while, then getting back on.
So there's another thing to add to the toolbox. :) Good to see so many people suggest ruling out physical stuff first. That's step one.

xQHDQ
Nov. 28, 2007, 10:49 AM
My 5 yo Appendix QH did EXACTLY what your horse did. I handed him over to my trainer who worked with him all this summer. For the first month she had to have someone on the ground with a lunge whip and even after that someone was at the ready (usually me so I could watch what she did). In August I started to get on him a little after she rode him. I've been riding him exclusively since the first of September and he's been great. A couple of times he started to act like he wanted to stop and I just tapped him with my whip and I havent' had a problem since.

I hated that I couldn't ride him all summer but I was afraid that if I got on him too soon he wouldn't learn well enough that his behavior was unacceptable.

All I can say is you are brave and doing the right thing, but it may take longer than you think to cure this. But...you will fix this.

MySparrow
Nov. 28, 2007, 11:03 AM
How frustrating and scary! I've been through this with one horse -- my Percheron/Morgan gelding Jack -- and after a lot of work determined that it was a combination of trust and physical issues that were causing his balking, bucking, plunging, astonishing and sometimes terrifying refusal to go forward (I have a knee that remembers this only too well). Now solidly first level and the "wanta ride" horse my students aspire to, he still prefers to go bareback -- no saddle really suits him, though I have a custom Schleese that he will tolerate. We worked through a sequence of bitless and bits to find one he will respond to without fear or anger (he's happy in a Baucher French link, though he will still cross his jaw if he doesn't like your hand). In our arena, on our trails, in all the places he visits regularly he is a happy horse and a delight to ride. Take him someplace new, or ask him to do something he's unsure of, and we have an instant return to the balking, plunging, rearing stuff. As long as I can get him to a venue early and give him a good introduction to the area, he will perform well, though we often just have to accept being dismissed from the first test because he will spend a fair share of it on two legs (at least this wakes up the audience :lol:!). The following tests are successively better.

We now know that he hates to be wrong, he hates to be uncertain, he hates to be ridden by someone who is frightened; he needs a firm and commanding but respectful leadership and no confusion. This is who he is. It probably is significant that he was gelded very late.

Before we discovered this I did some weird things. I rode him bareback and in a jury-rigged sidepull for a long time, just teaching him to trust my seat and hands (and teaching me to trust him!). One memorable time we backed through an entire work session, because he refused to go forward but would go backwards. It was interesting. It wasn't a magic cure, but he did go forward after that.

On the ground he is a very loving and kind horse, benevolent leader of our 10-horse herd. With riders he trusts he will try anything. He loves the big movements, the collection. As he warms up and stretches into a session you can see his face become happier and happier. He discovered passage all by himself and presents it just for fun with riders he trusts. I have had moments of transcendent communication with him. He is who he is.

Your horse is younger than Jack was when he came to us, so I have confidence that if you will step back and really observe him even more closely than you already have -- not trying to fix or correct him but trying to figure out who he is -- you will have a great partner. Good luck and please let us know what happens!

mjhco
Nov. 28, 2007, 11:52 AM
What is this colt's breeding? You can pm me if you wish. I am just curious.

There are some lines that are more interested in work than others...

MaryJo

Velvet
Nov. 28, 2007, 12:13 PM
I sent you a PM that might, or might not, help. :)

mp
Nov. 28, 2007, 12:33 PM
My "happy ending" didn't begin with nearly the resistance you're encountering. My horse was a pill as a 4-5 year old somewhat studdy gelding (also an Arabian). My instructor cautioned me NOT to pick a fight with him over it. That he would escalate the resistance, and that would only take me further away from getting him to work.

She advised me to just take what he offered and let him settle in to work at his own pace. Waiting for him to get his head in the game was a test of my patience. I didn't insist on a pace, but he had to move his feet and go straight. Sometimes it took 20 minutes or more to get past a slow walk and the best I'd get was a dinkin' around trot. But if I tried to force him to be more energetic (legs, whip) before *he* was ready, he'd fling his head around and crow hop. His pissiness at going forward gradually lessened over time. It was gone for good after about a year. He's 7 now and really nice to work with -- willing, no balkiness whatsoever.

I don't have any specific advice to give you. Except I'd pay close attention to stories like lstevenson's about her once-in-a-lifetime horse. Smart horses have a lot ways to evade what you're asking them to do. If you fight with them, they'll just come up with even more ways. But if you're patient and wait them out (smart ones don't like to be bored either ;), you'll be able to build a partnership with them that 's really special.

TwoArabs
Nov. 28, 2007, 03:09 PM
I had a seasoned trainer of several breeds tell me that Arabs are an enigma and that they must think it is their idea before doing anything new.

mp
Nov. 28, 2007, 03:23 PM
My horse experience has pretty much been concentrated on Arabians, so I can't really say if they're different from other breeds. I've always assumed there are clever horses to be found among all breeds and the smart ones are pretty much alike.

But my instructor (40+ years with TBs, WBs, QHs, you name it) says Arabians are the only horses she's encountered that can multi-task. :lol:

JackSprats Mom
Nov. 28, 2007, 03:30 PM
So I agree that picking a fight with him is not going to work.

Long lined him today for 15-20 mins, grabbed a friend to be a grounds person and got on. He refused to move at first but instead of insisting I just had the grounds person get behind him. After that, while not 'forward' he was ok. Stopped once when I asked for the canter, used the grounds person again and got go. Rode for about 10 mins and with lots of verbal reward for transitions then got off and let him roll. He seems to at least have part of his mind back so I think (and hope) we'll be through this tantrum in a week or so.

I palpated his back thoroughly today along with most major muscle groups and found no soreness.

As for saddle/bridele/breeding he's ridden in a wintec 500 which he seems to like, baucher french link and he's a SE Arab (lots of Ansata/Halim/Nazeer).



I will keep an open mind on the pain issues but I also know this horse and this screams testosterone to me and my trainer (VERY experienced Arab train, over 30 years and experienced stallion handler- I am not going this alone). I would expect pain to show up on the trails as well as the arena and he shows NO resistance on trails.

ESG
Nov. 28, 2007, 03:58 PM
Sunday we went for our usual 2 hour conditioning hill ride (he's always pretty darn good and always forward on the trails). He was good.

Um, I know Arabs are great for this stuff, but 2 hours of anything for a 4 year old is just about an hour and a half too much. :eek:


(info- he's 4.5 year old Arab stallion (as I know someone will say geld him!)who has one month now to get back to where he was otherwise he'll be a 4.5 year old gelding:winkgrin:- Also, in all fairness to him, this is his bad period, he has been so wonderful over all to handle, ride and be around. The trouble is I only post when I have an issue with him and not on a daily basis when I finish the ride and go 'WOW' with a grin on my face anhd can't believe how amazing he is)

Thanks for letting me vent, now give me hope :)

It's male. It produces testosterone. By definition, it will have issues.
Since it's also a 4 year old greenie, it will have more issues.
Stay safe, and keep us posted. He sounds like a cool dude. :yes:


check his sacrum- I bet he is very sore there.! Horses are NOT stupid- they act like this because they have discomfort- this could be as easy as a pinched nerve. (probably cyatic(sp?) nerve)...nonetheless I had this kind of a horse and it didn't stop until we fixed the phsycial problem....

Editted to add: and yes he lunged also perfectly- it has to do with the weight of the rider and a sacrum issue- where the cyatic nerve starts and runs down his hind legs...the pain is massive- the reaction is massive as well- manifests itself sometimes a bit like being coldbacked...

After a 2 hour conditioning ride, I'd be willing to be you're right. :yes:

SnowFalen
Nov. 28, 2007, 08:00 PM
The oldenburg mare I purchased was almost exactly like this when I first bought her. I had known her since she was a foal as her owner boarded her horses with my trainer. She is a very smart horse and is quick to catch on to what is being asked and quick to find a way to escape work. As a two year old she was absolute hell. Had to literally, and I hate to say it, have some beat down/come to Jesus moments just to enter the stall with her. She was put under saddle as a 4yr old and my trainer never had any more issues with her.

I rode her as a working student a few times a week before I bought her and we got along fine. As soon as I purchased her and became her main rider, major issues developed. One of the things I liked about her was her level-headedness, but she began spooking at every little thing. Bucking and taking off at things that had never even startled her before. She then began rearing and refusing to move, which evolved into rearing and spinning. There were times when the only way I could get her to move forward was my trainer cracking a whip behind her when she reared, and a lot of times that just led to her jumping while on her hind legs, which is very scary, but I'm not so worried when horses rear anymore (if that's an upside :no:).

At first I fought it out with her. Definitely had some wars, but then I realized that perhaps the reason she was acting as she did was because I was such a different rider than she was used to, that she was unsure and smart enough to take advantage of the situation and me. You did mention you just got him back from the jumper barn. Maybe he is just testing you, I definitely think horses go through a rebellious teen phase. With my mare patience and using the reverse psychology/work more trick worked. If she was bad while riding I would immediately dismount, no fight, and ground drive her doing very hard work, then remount and just ask for minimal work, repeating as neccessary until I could get back on and ride for a few minutes doing what I wanted without resistance. In a month or so she realized it was not getting her anywhere and stopped the behavior. Also, I realized part of the problem (as it almost always is :yes:) was the way I was riding her. I had started to ride defensively and was anticipating the rearing, sure enough it would become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

That was 2 years ago and since then she still occasionally rears when she decides she can't/doesn't want to do something, but honestly it is better than it has ever been because our relationship has gotten better. I feel like I learned to ride her more communicatively and I trust her to behave. Long story short, she is a terrific second level horse, working on third, soft and supple as butter and I almost laugh thinking back to the days when I was seriously considering selling her and probably would have if anyone had been around to make an offer, lol. Don't give up, hang in there and do some reverse psychology, they definitely get it.

JackSprats Mom
Nov. 28, 2007, 11:29 PM
ESG-
Um, I know Arabs are great for this stuff, but 2 hours of anything for a 4 year old is just about an hour and a half too much. :eek:


You may want to let the AERC know that then as they allow 4 year olds to do LD rides (25-30 miles) which is far more then 2 hours.

I see no reason why a four year old can't do a two hour ride, you need to remember that this is trails, which while 'work' is not the same stress and strain as circling in an arena.

ESG
Nov. 28, 2007, 11:33 PM
I understand. I also understand that subjecting a 4 year old anything to 2 hours of conditioning, as I understand the word, is asking for trouble.

Of course, I am a former eventer, and may have a different definition of conditioning than what either you or the AERC (whatever that is) have. ;)

Sabine
Nov. 29, 2007, 12:35 AM
I understand. I also understand that subjecting a 4 year old anything to 2 hours of conditioning, as I understand the word, is asking for trouble.

Of course, I am a former eventer, and may have a different definition of conditioning than what either you or the AERC (whatever that is) have. ;)

Agreed-ESG..that's fundamentallly true- on top of that again- rider's weight is huge- if you are 100-130 pds it might be ok- anything above that at that age for that length of time- !!! You will pay a price..that back is just not that strong yet...and again sacrum will not test sore to touch ever...it's way inside- ligaments that can be torn...:(

mp
Nov. 29, 2007, 11:34 AM
AERC (whatever that is)

American Endurance Ride Conference

Good story, SnowFalen.

NOMIOMI1
Nov. 29, 2007, 12:00 PM
I sat on one of my horses until they fell asleep when they were being a brat on the trail course. This horse went to paint world with a youth.

indyarab
Nov. 29, 2007, 12:34 PM
Well, JackSprats Mom, I can't give you a good ending story but I'm just pleased to know that my Arab stallion isn't the only one giving his rider fits! This is not the first Arab stallion I've owned and shown. I bred, raised and showed his sire and his sire's brother. But I've never had one quite like this one! Unlike your's, he will go forward, sort of, but will twist his head to the side and put it in the air or will bite his chest. Neither is fun to ride. He's 8 but had a very late start due to my schedule and a mast cell tumor that came up on his face! He's had his teeth done and his back worked on by a very good chiropractic vet. He's just a pill. And it's worse when he doesn't have regular work. He's extremely handsome and very talented so I just keep plugging away with him. Maybe we can form an "Silly Arabian Stallions" riders support group!"

class
Nov. 29, 2007, 01:28 PM
Maybe we can form an "Silly Arabian Stallions" riders support group!"

also known as, "Riders dealing with SASs" - seems appropriate.

egontoast
Nov. 29, 2007, 02:37 PM
Crank and spank might fly with a warmblood, but you'll get yourself killed on an Arab. Please for god's sake, get the help of an Arabian trainer. No matter what egontoast wants to say, Arabians truly are a different personality than most other horses.

Why are you dragging me into this thread, A2, which I haven't even posted on?

What is your problem, other than your obvious ignorance about warmbloods and horses generally? :confused:

NOMIOMI1
Nov. 29, 2007, 02:51 PM
My purebred threw fits when fitting up again. He still does little stunts here and there. Not really sure if he will ever stop being kinda boingy when the mood hits him. I took off the spurs and put away the whip since we would just get into a fight at a standstill with kicking, bucking, rearing, and that was both of us LOL. Forward is only easy when he is hot and wanting it. He runs hot and cold but has taught me how to truly ride through a problem.

loshad
Nov. 29, 2007, 02:58 PM
You know, a 25 miler or more over varied terrain is even harder on a youngster than jumping a few 18"-2' jumps every now and again. I cannot believe that anyone who rides their horse to the point of flailing exhaustion would act so sanctimonious about someone schooling low fences with a four year old.

Arabians are wonderful horses. I've ridden quite a few in my time (most recently OT Russian Arabians--lovely beasties). They are not, however, magical or mystical. Many ride like TBs, some ride like WBs, some ride like ponies. Many are very, very smart. Some are dumber than rocks. Every damn one of them rides like the individual it is and a person who thinks that they can make gross generalization about the majikal beast that is the noble Ay-rab just comes across as, well, foolish.

CatOnLap
Nov. 29, 2007, 03:01 PM
I mentioned you to hopefully thwart the attack that was sure to follow
That is really whacky reasoning!
Mentioning someone who owns warmbloods, in an ignorant commentary about warmbloods and you expect them NOT to answer?
Where's the WTF? icon when you need it.

egontoast
Nov. 29, 2007, 03:03 PM
A2, if you think all wbs are tolerant of the ' crank and spank' just because you knew one like that, then you obviously have a lot to learn. That is an ignorant statement.

Please note, I wasn't even participating in this thread until you decided to get personal.

Auventera Two
Nov. 29, 2007, 03:05 PM
You know, a 25 miler or more over varied terrain is even harder on a youngster than jumping a few 18"-2' jumps every now and again. I cannot believe that anyone who rides their horse to the point of flailing exhaustion would act so sanctimonious about someone schooling low fences with a four year old.

Flailing exhaustion? :lol: Just to straighten things up - I obviously didn't use the correct words in a previous post. I was referring to the uneveness of gait, or feeling that a horse is beginning to tire. I have never, and will never EVER ride a horse to the point of flailing exhaustion. When I was taking dressage lessons - this was when the horse wasn't working through anymore, or he was getting hollow and not connecting with the outside rein. When you're riding on the straight, on the trail, you don't have the same kind of connection you do on a 20m in the ring. I was referring to feeling that the horse is faltering, or needing a break. To push them beyond that point would create exhaustion. Both my mares have done 2 LD rides, and both of them received all As on vet score cards in every category at every vet check. They don't receive those scores if they've been ridden to exhaustion. ;)

And I agree that LDs are hard work. It's hard work for the horse and the person. I think you have to be extremely careful about your conditioning, and your competing. I did both rides VERY slow, and didn't ask for any kind of speed at all. The top finishers completed the ride in 50% the time my horses did because I didn't want them pushed.

In any case - my interpretation of the OP was that by putting the horse with a jumper trainer at a jumper barn - he was going to be doing more than hopping over an 18" x every once in a while. If that's an incorrect interpretation, then I apologize for the comments.

CatOnLap
Nov. 29, 2007, 03:07 PM
For JackSprat's Mom, a happy ending:
My WB was purchased with some serious temper, training and vice problems and it took plenty of old fashioned courage (I wouldn't have been able to stay on with the "dutch" kind) to ride it through. He had been a stallion until age 4 1/2 and I got him a year after, when his owner gave up.

But he is approaching old age now, still competition sound and so sensible that I can put a rank beginner on him. He "got a brain" around age 7 or 8. He's a real sweetie, the horse of my heart...he's part arab too, but mostly other stuff. There is hope!

JackSprats Mom
Nov. 29, 2007, 03:34 PM
Ok ok lets clear up some of the crap thats flying freely.

First off he HASN'T been jumped- I was getting ready to have him go up once EVERY OTHER week to get started over 18'" cross poles- this is far from over stressing him. Especially as he hasn't even done it yet- it was preparation!

Second, A2, he's a naturally lazy horse and a backward thinker (some just are). The very basis of dressage is to go forward, calm and straight. Yes, I have had issues with the forward (not the first horse in the world to have this issue) and have posted about it. I guess as you ignored the very first post you missed the bit where for the most part he was going wonderfully and I loved riding him and I had only posted on the few issues we have had. If it would make you feel like this were more balanced I can PM you every day that we have a great ride just so you know thats 95% of the time. I come to this board for suggestions as there are numerous well eductated riders and trainers on here. Showing him as a 4 year old at TRAINING level ie walk trot canter - is not asking too much.


It's sad that the poor horse has had so many issuesROFLMAO he's a baby, he's a stallion, you keep saying he's so young, he for the most part has normal baby problems. I'm not sure where you get you're twisted ideas from A2 but you seem to look at the information and pick and choose what you hear and ASSume alot. He was NEVER going up into full training with a H/J person as you ASSumed.


My Arab at 4 1/2 has done a 25 miler, a 35 miler, and many conditioning rides reaching 6-7 hours in length.And you think I'm pushing MINE:eek::eek::eek: I would NEVER ride my 4 year old for 6-7 hours. All I ask of mine is 3-4 days a week of 30mins work in the arena, then a two hour trail ride with hills.

mp
Nov. 29, 2007, 04:36 PM
I mentioned you to hopefully thwart the attack that was sure to follow.

Pffft. It's called pot stirring, dear.


Arabians are wonderful horses. I've ridden quite a few in my time (most recently OT Russian Arabians--lovely beasties). They are not, however, magical or mystical. Many ride like TBs, some ride like WBs, some ride like ponies. Many are very, very smart. Some are dumber than rocks.

I've got seven. One is so smart and perceptive, it's spooky; and one is so dumb you have to remind her to chew. Everyone else is somewhere in between. Just like most other breeds.

Just purtier. :D


he's a naturally lazy horse and a backward thinker (some just are).

Hmmmm .... I'm always skeptical when someone says her horse is "lazy."

Horses differ in their responsiveness and sensitivity. But horses like to go forward. It's natural for them. The one I've had that didn't, had been trained in WP (i.e., cranked into a frame). Once she understood that moving out was OK, she was fine. You might want to go back to basics and figure out why and when "drive" became "neutral."

grayarabpony
Nov. 29, 2007, 05:07 PM
Second, A2, he's a naturally lazy horse and a backward thinker (some just are).


I hope you can work through your problems with him. But that sentence above made me think "get him gelded now".

class
Nov. 29, 2007, 05:42 PM
read this on thomas ritter's email list today and thought you could use the information.



Horses who discover that rearing is an effective weapon against the rider have been taught/allowed to habitually suck back and to be behind the whip and the leg. Being behind the leg always goes hand in hand with stiffnesses in certain areas, particularly the poll/neck, the back and hips. They often have a weak back by conformation, which makes them prone to tightening the back and getting behind the leg.
Apart from some rare exceptions, rearing is mostly created through rider mistakes (for instance, blocking the horse with stiff hips and hands, tipping forward, holding the horse back), and in most cases it takes weeks or months with countless warning signs, before the habit is full blown and out of control. If a rider does not have a good enough seat and not enough feel to prevent a horse from discovering rearing as a weapon, he will certainly not have a good enough seat or enough tact to cure a rearer. In most cases, the dangerous behavior starts out of righteous and completely justified aggravation with a clumsy rider who interferes so much that it becomes impossible for the horse to do his job. Correcting rearers is a very difficult and dangerous task that should be left to experienced, skilled professionals who also have the right setup and the right support staff on hand to help out, as this usually requires one or two assistants.
Before any remedial work can begin, the rider has to diagnose correctly where the problem originates and eliminate the root cause. In other words, the rider has to find out which seat/aids mistakes led the horse down the path to rearing and then avoid at all costs making these mistakes ever again. Without eliminating the root cause, any attempt at finding a cure is doomed to failure before it has even started. In most cases, that means eliminating the rider who is responsible for the issue altogether. As long as that rider is still involved in any aspect of training or even handling the horse, it will be almost impossible to retrain the horse.
Like all dangerous evasions, rearing comes out of sucking back and bracing. The horse needs to have a straight, rigid neck in order to rear. If you can bend the neck, the horse will be unable to rear - which is why milling (a type of carrot stretch in motion) is an effective counter measure. When a horse rears, his hips are locked up, and his haunches are straight and unflexed, whereas in a levade the haunches are quite deeply flexed and the croup is lowered.
A horse who is honestly in front of the whip and the leg cannot hide any energy reserves from the rider. He will place all of his energy at his rider's disposal, and will therefore not rear. So, any effective correction has to start with bringing the horse in front of the whip and leg and with suppling the stiff muscles in the horse's body, especially the poll/neck and hips. This will have to involve some longeing with a bending rein, some flexions at the halt, probably some work in hand with turns on the forehand in motion and full passes, as well as halt/walk and halt/trot transitions from a vibration of the whip. Pillars work can help, too. When the horse is obedient on the ground, the rider has to repeat the same exercises in the saddle, perhaps with a ground person to support his efforts with a longe whip and longe line. This process may take a while before the horse changes his thinking.
The key is always to prevent dangerous situations and bad habits from arising in the first place, because correcting a mistake is far more difficult, and often more dangerous. The general approach to correcting poorly trained horses with bad habits is twofold. On the one hand, the root cause that was responsible for the development of the bad habit has to be found and eliminated, as mentioned above. On the other hand, the rider has to find a way of making the dangerous evasion backfire on the horse and make his life harder and more uncomfortable when he rears/bucks/bolts/etc. When the horse shows good will, he needs to be immediately rewarded with treats and shorter, lighter work sessions. He has to learn that there are consequences for his behavior, either way. The dangerous evasion, that used to lead to relief, now has to lead to unpleasant consequences, whereas compliance has to lead to a much more desirable outcome for the horse. When the horse understands this lesson and chooses to live in harmony with the rider, he will be cured.
In the old cavalry days, rearers were flipped over backwards, then one person would sit on the horse's neck, so that the horse couldn't get up, and 3-4 people would give the horse a severe beating with driving whips. This was barbaric, but according to the cavalry authors, it was quite effective. This experience was so horrible that the horses never reared again.
In the old SRS, the riders would convert the rear into a levade or a courbette. There is a very short window of opportunity, before the horse's body reaches a 45 degree angle to the ground. During this window, the rider can still use his weight and rein aids to flex the haunches, which changes the rear into a levade and brings the horse back under the control of the rider. Alternatively, a simultaneous strong spur pressure on both sides will make the horse leap forward into a courbette, which takes the ground away from the horse as a weapon against the rider's aids, and the landing on the hind legs enables the rider to flex the haunches under the combined weight of horse and rider. Flexion of the haunches always restores the rider's control. However, this requires so much skill, timing, feel, and courage that it really is not practical for most riders.
For most riders it is probably best to extend the duration of the work session, until the horse shows a willingness to cooperate.

Thomas Ritter
Ritter Dressage
www.classicaldressage.com

JackSprats Mom
Nov. 29, 2007, 07:03 PM
Thanks Class. Good read and some very valid points. I know what caused it and thought I had remedied the situation (and indeed had, until other poeple got on him:(). Now its returned 10 times worse.

I am going to get him checked by a vet this weekend to rule out back and teeth and then if he gets the all clear I think I will geld him as, like I've said before, I'm pretty sure this is a testosterone issue.

As a great man once said, 'to be an expert you need experience, and to gain experience you need to make mistakes'. This is a learning process for me with this horse, everyone has to learn somewhere. I am however under supervision of a very well qualified instructor, if I mess him up, I will (or she will) fix him. He's not going to be euthanised or dumped or...whatever. So while I may have created some of this, I am also dedicated to getting him over it with him and me in one piece.

class
Nov. 29, 2007, 07:15 PM
good luck!

if he flips on you again and you need me to drive up to everett and sit on his neck while you beat the tar out of him, just let me know. ;)

angel
Nov. 29, 2007, 08:48 PM
Maybe I have missed it somewhere, but have you checked to see if his wolf teeth are coming in? He is about the correct age for that. You might try riding him in a bosal for awhile and see if that helps...that is, if you have used a bosal before. If you have not, you might look around for a western trainer to show you what they are about. You absolutely cannot hang on them, or the horse will learn how to run through their contact.

Bogie
Nov. 29, 2007, 09:22 PM
1
Instead of fighting with him (kicking, whipping, and trying to turn him around) which only made him really violent - rearing, leaping, running me through trees, ect., I tried reverse psychology. When he spun around and braced himself, ready for a good fight, I would sit there relaxed and not ask him to do anything. He was shocked, as he really expected a good fight. After a minute or two of standing there with me asking for nothing, when I asked him to turn around, he did. Sometimes it would take us 2 hours to go 100 feet across a field, but he started to lose interest in his game.



Exactly what I was going to suggest only said better ;). I have a lovely (and sometimes stubborn) Trakehner. Perhaps coincidentally, he was gelded after being bred for two seasons, so maybe had some stallion characteristics. He used to throw major temper tantrums which often ended in a half rear. Everyone told me to drive him forward and ride him through it. That ended up in what I think is called a capriole ;) (the rear and leap forward movement performed at a canter).

My trainer and I decided we needed another opinion. With her help we found another well respected trainer to evaluate him. She told me that I needed to stop playing his game and simply ignore his behavior and stop taking the bait because he was enjoying the fight.

Even though he was "balky" and behind the leg, she did NOT have me drive him forward. Instead, we made him stand until he was bored, and then stand a bit longer, until it was my decision to move forward. Sometimes I'd let him take just one or two steps and halt again. If he acted up, I did not get after him, I simply ignored him or changed the "question" to something that he could answer correctly and then gradually get him back to the more difficult work.

It is very hard not to react. But sometimes that's what works.

Good luck!

JackSprats Mom
Nov. 29, 2007, 09:28 PM
Instead of fighting with him (kicking, whipping, and trying to turn him around) which only made him really violent - rearing, leaping, running me through trees, ect., I tried reverse psychology. When he spun around and braced himself, ready for a good fight, I would sit there relaxed and not ask him to do anything. He was shocked, as he really expected a good fight. After a minute or two of standing there with me asking for nothing, when I asked him to turn around, he did. Sometimes it would take us 2 hours to go 100 feet across a field, but he started to lose interest in his game.

Heck I have nothing to loose, maybe I'll try sitting it out and waiting- :winkgrin:

Angel- he's had his wolf teeth pulled already- but I am wondering if some of this might be teeth, only that makes me think not is he does none of this on the trails.

NOMIOMI1
Nov. 30, 2007, 11:10 AM
Heck I have nothing to loose, maybe I'll try sitting it out and waiting- :winkgrin:

Angel- he's had his wolf teeth pulled already- but I am wondering if some of this might be teeth, only that makes me think not is he does none of this on the trails.

I vote for the sitting it out and waiting too!

rainechyldes
Nov. 30, 2007, 01:20 PM
I mentioned you to hopefully thwart the attack that was sure to follow. You started a whole thread on why you hate Arab owners because they think their Arabs are "different or special." I was defending myself in advance of my comment that Arabs truly are different than other breeds.


I recall this thread, and being an Arab type horsey owner, took it in stride as the fun tongue in cheek, 'arab owners tend to be loonytunes' way it was posted.

I'll say here what I said there.
Arab horses are like any other breed. - some are lovely ambassadors of their breed. others -suck.
(Frankly,- I could say the same about Arabian horse owners)

I have more than a few Arabian horses purebred and partbreds.
One is terribly gifted and way too smart, ( I promise myself I'm gonna kill him at least every second day) -yes this is a joke-- to those who are humor impaired.--
One has the best work ethic I've ever met in any horse, and I've owned everything from TBS to some utterly lovely WBS

One - thank god he has a fenceline to follow allllllllll the way around to find his barn, and his supper otherwise he'd be in a special world of hurt.

NOMIOMI1
Nov. 30, 2007, 01:28 PM
In the photo from that thread he is rearing also. The earlier parts of his rides seem to be rocky. My horse (whispers arab shhhh) warms up doing what we call the Sonny with his head high and nose poked up/out. Ive learned to cure it quickly but when a new person is on him it takes a long while. Ive had him stand on his hinds when he doesnt want to go forward but usually its because off in the distance he swears he sees something. I call it the death stare because if you ask him to move so much as a muscle he trys to kill you (well not really but bounce around at least). Funny thing is the only other horse Ive ridden that does the same thing is a part Arab.

angel
Nov. 30, 2007, 08:38 PM
How do you ride differently on the trails than in the arena? Longer reins? Different saddle? Something is greatly different between those two venues.

JackSprats Mom
Nov. 30, 2007, 09:01 PM
A2- this is where you and I differ, I believe that if he was truly forward I would have it both in and out of the arena and not just when and where he choses- not his choice, its mine.'Baby' or not he's coming 5 and should be able to walk trot and canter in the arena, I'm not asking collection or flying changes:eek: walk trot and canter!! It shouldn't be his choice to be forward on trails only. He's not being drilled in the arena he does 3 days for 30 mins thats it.

Angel- the only thing that changes on the trails is I ride him in a stronger bit, same saddle and gear.

As for the photo of him rearing, I honestly thought that was a fluke and it is 100% the oppersite of why he is doing it now. In that photo I had wanted to leave with the leaders and was turning him around (away from them) and he was WAY pumped up and excited.

He is rearing now out of resistance. On that note he gets a full physical on Monday and will have no work (U/S) done with him till then (physical by a chiro/vet ). If it IS physical then trust me, I will owe him an apology for calling him a brat- if its hormanal he gets cut next month.

Here's my issue- I'm a firm believer that the horse should do as he's asked, hence for those that say 'oh just trail ride him' thats all well and good but does not resolve the issue of his resistance in the arena and eventually I believe if not dealt with now, the issue will resurface in some other way.

Here's why I think its hormonal- inside arena (where he's not ridden much due to bad footing) he was fine, trails he's fine, out door arena he stops.

He's tried to rear because he's smart and everything else has failed for him, he tried cowkicking at the leg, he tried bucking, he tried bitting the feet- each time I worked through it and he went forward and was then nice, forward and quiet. As a stallion (and I think non SO don't get this) he tests everyone and everything, as a smart stallion he keeps retesting. I have had my trainer beside me the whole way and the only 'signs' I missed was I should have gotten after him at the very beginning instead of treating him like a baby and letting him be a little sluggish, my bad.

So I am going back to ground work this weekend, establishing some respect and some forward, getting him vet checked and we'll go from there.

And to restate something I said in my original post, I have only posted here when he's plateaued at times, something alot of youngsters do. All in all he has been a wonderful horse, with a great temprement and the last couple of months before anyone else rode him he was a dream! Putting others on him seems to have really pissed him off for some reason, and now with hindsight I know he wasn't ready for anyone else. Live and learn.

angel
Dec. 1, 2007, 10:01 AM
The only horse that I ever rode who reacted something like this (never had one go over on me), it was the bit. You might try getting a mullen, or as I said before, try a bosal for awhile. Can you post some pictures?

NOMIOMI1
Dec. 1, 2007, 01:30 PM
Yesterday one of my friends young horse (4) was doing the same thing you described. I told her to wait it out and see what happens. He never stopped throwing a fit. She had to ride it out with the whip even though he was just standing there bucking. Reins with slack in them and a good couple wacks. He jumped around but eventually went forward. I think it will be a couple of times like this before he stops. My horse still tests me out to see if Ill cave and not lay down the law. I dont know what Id do if he went over backwards with me though. PLEASE do be careful.

Atheta21
Dec. 1, 2007, 11:10 PM
The above quotes are from two different posters. I am interested in how these problems were diagnosed, especially the leaky gut.

The leaky gut was interesting, I will try to explain, but keep in mind I'm not a vet. The vet externally palpated all over his stomach/back/croup etc and then determined which vertabrae were out (supposedly there is a correlation between the vertabrae and organs). She thought his kidneys were very sensitive and did an internal palpation. It was at that time she found that the spleen was in worse condition than the kidneys but everything that had to do with the excretion or detox was swollen.
Then I told her that I had recently put him on a glucosamine supplement. At that time she said he had leaky gut and the glucosamine was leaking out his gut into his body and his body was fighting the supplement. I don't know if this is exactly what was going on, but I do know that the behavior was with in a month of the supplement being started and I know that the treatment worked.

Sabine
Dec. 2, 2007, 01:12 AM
The above quotes are from two different posters. I am interested in how these problems were diagnosed, especially the leaky gut.

Ton- sorry- just saw this post. My horse had full nuke scan. His sacrum appeared very inflamed. The scan involves injecting some nuclear type isotopes into the blood stream and then x-raying the horse. It needs to be done in a hospital and is not super traumatic to the horse...not pleasant either. But he was so bad that we had very little alternative. At that time (about 4years ago) a lot of now available treatments were not so readily available. After the diagnosis he received 3 shock treatments and after 6 weeks was perfectly fine. We had to carefully rebuild him- but his behavior and symptoms disppeared 100%.

we believe that the injury to the sacrum was caused by a minor issue. He was stabled in a open pipestall next to an 18hd horse. Both were geldings, he was only 16hds but very bulky.
Apparently they fought all day and night and spent most of their time on 2 feet - him being much smaller apparently receiving some hits from the larger horse.
His tendency to rear came with him from Denmark where I imported him from. He also had a sensitive system...looking back- I have since majorly changed what I vaccinate, and supplement...the horses systems are much more sensitive than many believe or are aware of.
But we are all caught in this mode of - if I supplement with this- maybe my training issue will disappear- maybe it's a lack of this or that- that's causing all the trouble...etc.

I am beginning to educate myself on herbal stuff and a much lower amount of everything to supplement my horses...including a more appropriate vaccination schedule.

Atheta21
Dec. 2, 2007, 01:34 AM
...the horses systems are much more sensitive than many believe or are aware of.
But we are all caught in this mode of - if I supplement with this- maybe my training issue will disappear- maybe it's a lack of this or that- that's causing all the trouble...etc.

I am beginning to educate myself on herbal stuff and a much lower amount of everything to supplement my horses...including a more appropriate vaccination schedule.[/QUOTE]

Sabine: This is so true, they are so sensitive! It's what I found out also, when we got the leaky gut diagnosis. I just put him on a very expensive supplement thinking it was good for him and it was not because of his sensitivity. It seems that horses are also so sensitive to sugar. As far as I know there is not one feed that you can buy in the feed stores that does not contain sugar. If any one knows of one PLEASE let me know! Thanks!

Sabine: Look into Hemp. It has done wonders for some of mine. Interesting stuff!

Sabine
Dec. 2, 2007, 01:45 AM
...the horses systems are much more sensitive than many believe or are aware of.
But we are all caught in this mode of - if I supplement with this- maybe my training issue will disappear- maybe it's a lack of this or that- that's causing all the trouble...etc.

I am beginning to educate myself on herbal stuff and a much lower amount of everything to supplement my horses...including a more appropriate vaccination schedule.

Sabine: This is so true, they are so sensitive! It's what I found out also, when we got the leaky gut diagnosis. I just put him on a very expensive supplement thinking it was good for him and it was not because of his sensitivity. It seems that horses are also so sensitive to sugar. As far as I know there is not one feed that you can buy in the feed stores that does not contain sugar. If any one knows of one PLEASE let me know! Thanks!

Sabine: Look into Hemp. It has done wonders for some of mine. Interesting stuff!

glad to hear you are on the same wave...I connected with a equine healer in Florida who put my horse on chinese herbs and specified a very toned down, more gentle worming and vaccination schedule- I am beginning to see the light..it's quite a revelation and amazing to feel true WELLNESS!

mp
Dec. 3, 2007, 11:23 AM
I have had my trainer beside me the whole way and the only 'signs' I missed was I should have gotten after him at the very beginning instead of treating him like a baby and letting him be a little sluggish, my bad. So I am going back to ground work this weekend, establishing some respect and some forward, getting him vet checked and we'll go from there.

If "getting after him" was the answer, he wouldn't have fallen over on you. Forward is natural for horses. They want to move their feet, even with a rider on board. If your horse is NOT going forward, it's either a pain issue or a training issue (as in rider error, e.g., conflicting signals, overfacing him) or both. I hope you find out what the problem is and change your tactics accordingly.

Auventera Two
Dec. 3, 2007, 12:01 PM
Is there any update after your rides this weekend? I hope you had some success to report! :)

cyberbay
Dec. 4, 2007, 03:01 PM
It's been my experience that Arabians are intelligent and love to interact. Success with them depends on how the rider/handler likes to interact with horses. For those who like to interact in a certain way, the horse is a great match; for those who are of another outlook, they're maybe not the best horse.

Have used the 'read a good book' while the horse has a debate with himself about doing his little exercises many a time (but on a variety of breeds), and it's a great way to solve something for a horse that has learned to fight to defend itself.

The teeth check is a great idea -- they do get weird teeth at this age -- and also the saddle fit. He might be outgrowing his saddle at this point in time? Riding out might be the best emphasis, too, at this time; if he's enjoying himself, he'll not pay as much attn. to the things that are bothering him, which would explain why one day he's fine and the next day balky (if a true physical issue). When he's faced with a 'chore,' his anxiety about it might really escalate his discomfort over his teeth or his saddle fit.

daisyfields
Dec. 4, 2007, 06:36 PM
I am going to work through this with him as I believe he is an incredibly talented horse and when we work well together its amazing.

I want to hear your stories of your nightmare 'dream' horse that once the marble fell in the slot has turned into the wonderful horse you knew would be there one day- give me hope!!!:D


Thanks for letting me vent, now give me hope :)

I know I'm joining a bit late, but I know exactly how it feels so I'll join in anyway:yes:

I got my horse as a just turned five year old, very green, as was I. In fact I knew how to brush a horse and that was it. I was promised lessons and training, which I never recieved, so I was left to figure things out on my own. Since we just plodded along on the trails this was fine. Then the place we worked at started doing some not so nice things to us both, and pushed her over the edge. I saw my horse mentally snap, and it was one of the worst things I have ever seen:no:. She just started rearing and thrashing and turned violent. We immediately moved and I gave her the winter to just relax and be a horse. The spring came and she was fine again...until the horse next to her moved and she went back to her violent ways. She bit, kicked, reared, balked, bucked, threw you like a rag doll leading her. I tried to help her, but with my severe lack of experience, it didn't happen. I knew I had two options left when I went to get in the saddle and couldn't, because it made me nausceous(sp?). She didn't flip over on me, but I had fallen and ended up underneath her. She missed me by about an inch with her feet when she landed. I was given two options, get help, or get rid of her. Option number two would never happen; I knew somewhere in there was the horse I knew before, the real Daizey, and I wasn't going to just pass her along. I got a trainer, and after an intense summer of "dressage bootcamp" for us both her true personality came out. I ride her bareback, bridleless, in parades, stand on her, do all sorts of crazy things because we both have enormous trust in and respect for each other. Dressage saved us both. Stick with it, and the rewards will be great. It takes a lot of effort to turn coal into a diamond, and I've never heard someone say they regretted doing it.

Atheta21
Dec. 16, 2007, 08:31 PM
How is the horse doing now?

Whisper
Dec. 16, 2007, 09:45 PM
How do you ride differently on the trails than in the arena? Longer reins? Different saddle? Something is greatly different between those two venues.

I think some horses do better on the trail than in the arena, or vice versa. For example, last weekend, the owner of one of the horses I ride told me he was being really lazy and uncooperative when the kids had been riding him for the past couple of weeks. I got on him in the arena after longing for a few minutes, and he threw his head a little in the canter transitions, tried to break to a trot after a few strides, and just generally didn't seem happy at all. He was reasonable at the walk and trot, no overt misbehaviour, but just no joi de vivre either. I took him out of the ring on a 10 minute walk around the property perimeter through the trees, and asked him to trot and canter where the footing was nice. He brightened right up and was forward, didn't toss his head at all, and just generally had a much nicer attitude. We went back into the arena, and he was still going quite nicely in there W/T/C, so I rode him back out and walked him to cool out. No tack change, and I'm sure there wasn't anything significant that changed in my riding in that short of a period of time. I've been on quite a few other horses who are also more forward and generally happier on the trails, a couple who are more comfortable in the arena and get hollow and nervous out there, and some who are fine either way.

JackSprat'sMom, I hope you find a program that works out better for your horse!