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Threedaydream
Nov. 25, 2007, 11:22 PM
Why is it that the options for padded black snaffle bridles with OUT a flash are sooo limited? Why does EVERYONE ride in a flash?

And lastly, where can I find a good one?

Miss Dior
Nov. 25, 2007, 11:32 PM
Because the flash keeps the mouth closed and assists you with keeping the contact steady to the bit. Less jiggly in the mouth. This is not a bad thing. Why would you not want one? Contrary to popular belief if is not to force poor horsie's mouth closed.

BarbB
Nov. 25, 2007, 11:43 PM
Passier makes some snaffle bridles with buckle-on flashes....so you can actually remove the whole thing.

renvers
Nov. 25, 2007, 11:48 PM
Try Bobby's Bridles. Available without. Very, very nice quality, as nice/nicer than my Kieffer bridle, but cost less.

Hony
Nov. 25, 2007, 11:53 PM
Because the flash keeps the mouth closed and assists you with keeping the contact steady to the bit. Less jiggly in the mouth. This is not a bad thing. Why would you not want one? Contrary to popular belief if is not to force poor horsie's mouth closed.

I think the old thought that the flash should be really tight is possibly why people think they should use it to force the mouth closed. Even when it isn't tight it allows for less movement on the horse's part.
The fact that my horse makes it extremely difficult to snug up a flash or figure 8 tells me that she doesn't like it. Since getting rid of it we have a much happier relationship and she goes softly into the bridle.

Threeday: Get a custom bridle. They are usually the same price or less than a good off the rack bridle.
You can always add a flash later if you need one.

Threedaydream
Nov. 26, 2007, 12:16 AM
renvers, I checked eqtack and couldn't find a padded model that was solid black. All they had was black with some garish color for padding.

Honey, who do you recomend for a custom?

Thanks!

CLB15
Nov. 26, 2007, 12:36 AM
I believe that for any of Stubbens padded bridles you can get them with a french, drop, or flash noseband. I got a stubben bridle through a local tackshop- they had the model I liked but not the size, and when I asked if they could add one in the size I needed in their next order, they also asked the type of reins I wanted, bridle & padding color, and noseband style. Someone else I know did the same thing but wanted a passier or kieffer (forget which). I don't think it's an uncommon request for shops to "swap" nosebands when ordering bridles, but unless someone asks for something different, they'll just stock whatever sells (in this case its flashes).
Otherwise just keep your favorite bridle and just order a new french noseband, keep the flash noseband & just remove the strap, or the little loop that attaches the flash to the bridle can be cut off (the quick & sometimes-later-regretted option) or be removed someone who actually knows how to work with leather/strap goods.

Chipngrace
Nov. 26, 2007, 12:56 AM
Why would you not want one?

Because my horses have pretty heads, and I don't think flashes are attractive, especially since my horses don't need them. Nothing turns me off on a pretty horse photograph or painting faster than a flash with the skin bulging out around it, saw one in a stallion ad, yuck. Ew. JMO

Carol Ames
Nov. 26, 2007, 01:03 AM
think the old thought that the flash should be really tight is possibly why people think they should use it to force the mouth closed. Even when it isn't tight it allows for less movement on the horse's part.
The fact that my horse makes it extremely difficult to snug up a flash or figure 8 tells me that she doesn't like it. Since getting rid of it we have a much happier relationship and she goes softly into the bridle.

Blixen Finecke ue to say: If the horse runs around the pasture with the the mouth open :lol:use a flash/drop, but, if he does it only when ridden; figure out why he is opening the mouth;:yes: My horses were also happier and just as soft without , but, certain judges seemed to "take " offense; :no: one told me to look a tthe video to see how much my horse was "yawing " , but, he was not,:no: instead was softly chewing :yes:, in fact he gave me the wonderful elastic, "alive " feelingthat morning , throughout the test; in fact, a judge watching from the ring "nextdoor, "next door" came over to ask me about the horse, it was a very cool, damp morninfg at his first event, and he was a star!:yes:;)

4Martini
Nov. 26, 2007, 01:13 AM
Blixen Finecke ue to say: If the horse runs around the pasture with the the mouth open :lol:use a flash/drop, but, if he does it only when ridden; figure out why he is opening the mouth

Does he have a solution for a horse that lifts it's upper lip and shows you it's teeth? Horse does it in the pasture when he's having fun, on the cross ties, on trail rides, on cross country and the only place anyone seems to care - in dressage. The last judge said that he was baring his teeth at her: 4 - I think he was just smiling for the camera :lol: Last time I let anyone take pictures of my dressage :lol:

Cielo Azure
Nov. 26, 2007, 08:06 AM
Order the Dover Saddlery catalog (or go on-line to look at bridles immediately). They have a zillion bridles in stock. Their complete print catalog (think the old Sears catalog, only for horses) is a great resource to have kicking around and has pages and pages of bridles, with most of the top brands. For some reason, when I see the bridles on the printed page, I can view all the little differences better than I can on the computer screen. They also seem to give a lot more information about their products in their big catalog than on-line (or maybe it is just easier to access).

If you want to side by side compare all sorts of bridles, it is the best way I know of to do that.

retrofit
Nov. 26, 2007, 08:29 AM
Almost every bridle manufacturer makes flash-less (french) nosebands for their double bridles. And almost all of them will sell a noseband separately. Go find one you like & ask to special order it. Or - just have a saddle repair person remove the flash from your existing noseband.

cyndi
Nov. 26, 2007, 09:13 AM
I dislike flash bridles too and only use them to start my youngsters. Go to VTO Saddlery - they have a clearance sale of Courbettes without flashes, and you can also order several Stubbens sans flash.

www.vtosaddlery.com

Kcisawesome
Nov. 26, 2007, 10:00 AM
Because the flash keeps the mouth closed and assists you with keeping the contact steady to the bit. Less jiggly in the mouth. This is not a bad thing. Why would you not want one? Contrary to popular belief if is not to force poor horsie's mouth closed.

Because I am tired of seeing horses with their jaws tight and clenched against the flash. I am tired of seeing horses who are biting and chomping and resisting yet made to look like they are "softly chewing" because of the flash. I am tired of the many so-called BNTs and dressage trainers who have told me to use a flash on my horse.

My own horse has a history of being tight, tense, short-stridded behind and very mouthy on the bit(In a bad way). I told many of those BNTs that I was not going to just tie her mouth shut and was going to teach her to relax and softly accept the bit. Finally one day at a clinic a trainer convinced me to use a flash on her. Without being able to chomp on the bit she found other ways to show her tenseness...such as refuseing to move, lathering sweat, bucking, shaking and other. I immediatly took it off and spent hours trying to calm her down again. Needless to say I have never used one sence and a year and a half later the same mare tracks up beautifully, is perfectly relaxed even in show-settings and goes with her mouth shut except for the occasionaly soft chewing (and nearly always has slightly white "lipstick").

My own experience has led me to watch other horses and I have noticed much of the same. While most horses don't react quite as violently as my own, I have seen many horses who, with the flash on just brace their entire heads against the bridle to make up for their rider's harsh hands or seat. The horses I have seen who go beautifully and well in a flash hardly seem to need it.

IMHO the flash is just another type of gadget or Tie-down meant to fix the horse in a certain "wanted" position that short-cuts good training. I send kudos to the OP and good luck on finding a good one (I am using a cheapy sale-bridle so I'm not the one to recamend where to find a good one).

War Admiral
Nov. 26, 2007, 10:11 AM
Buy a padded double and remove the bradoon strap. They unbuckle and slide out, no biggie.

Posting Trot
Nov. 26, 2007, 10:12 AM
Jerry's Harness makes beautiful bridles and you can choose the noseband without a flash. http://jerrysharnessshop.com/

Eclectic Horseman
Nov. 26, 2007, 10:23 AM
Why? Because virtually all the ODGs and BNTs have always used either a dropped noseband or flash noseband until the horse goes into the double bridle. So think of this before you condemn these sorts of nosebands altogether. Unless you want to believe that the masters don't know what they are doing. :lol:

Some say that it is to keep the bit steadier in the horse's mouth. If the bit moves around less, it is kinder and gentler and the horse is more willing to take up a nice steady contact. The horse also doesn't need to think about what is just bit "noise" and what is an aid.

I like to use a flash on young and green horses to stop bit evasions before they begin. Bad habits like hanging the tongue out, putting the tongue over the bit, crossing the jaws and opening the mouth are a lot easier to prevent than they are to stop once they have begun. When schooling young horses, it is necessary to use more rein aid than you will need with a trained horse, and horses will generally go through a process of seeking to evade the action of the bit until they understand and accept the aids.

Threedaydream
Nov. 26, 2007, 11:17 AM
Thanks for all the good replies guys! The links are great, and the discussion is even better. ;)

Does anyone know about the Nunn Finer bridles? I found this one and it looks nice, but the price seems a little too nice...
http://www.bitofbritain.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=373

tabula rashah
Nov. 26, 2007, 11:34 AM
yes, the Nunn Finer bridle is extremely nice- it is Amish made (although I think its very pricey because I can walk into said Amish store and pay close to 1/2)

stryder
Nov. 26, 2007, 11:41 AM
A friend bought a nice bridle from Dressage Extensions with a removable flash. The little keeper snapped on. Looked nice with the flash, absolutely no sign of it when removed. Sorry, can't remember the brand.

Miss Dior
Nov. 26, 2007, 11:56 AM
It's amusing to see the replies of why poor horsie cannot wear a flash. Let me recount them...horse's head is too "pretty"...tired of seeing others abuse it.....my horse let me know it feels better without it and our relationship is better. I certainly know that my horse PREFERS his girth loose too and is much happier when it is !!!! I am sure some horses will go better without one than with But these "reasons" are to the point...silly.

Eclectic Horseman
Nov. 26, 2007, 12:21 PM
It's amusing to see the replies of why poor horsie cannot wear a flash. Let me recount them...horse's head is too "pretty"...tired of seeing others abuse it.....my horse let me know it feels better without it and our relationship is better. I certainly know that my horse PREFERS his girth loose too and is much happier when it is !!!! I am sure some horses will go better without one than with But these "reasons" are to the point...silly.

Removing the flash is much easier than working on having quiet, independent hands. :winkgrin:

flshgordon
Nov. 26, 2007, 01:45 PM
ANY good brand of bridle sells them with and without the flash(Courbette, Stubben, Etc)....you just have to order them the way you want or ask your tack store to stock something else for you. They will keep in inventory what is most popular.

Kyzteke
Nov. 26, 2007, 03:56 PM
Removing the flash is much easier than working on having quiet, independent hands. :winkgrin:

Wait a second -- if you had "quiet, independent hands" wouldn't that mean you wouldn't NEED a flash? Since, hmmm, you wouldn't be slopping the bit all around the horses mouth?

Eclectic Horseman
Nov. 26, 2007, 04:20 PM
Wait a second -- if you had "quiet, independent hands" wouldn't that mean you wouldn't NEED a flash? Since, hmmm, you wouldn't be slopping the bit all around the horses mouth?

In some respects with trained horses, that is generally correct. Many riders think that their horses are "objecting to the flash" or dropped noseband, when actually they are objecting to the rider's hands. When the horse is wearing a flash, it makes it difficult for him to open his mouth, cross his jaws or do any of the other evasions that would make it possible for him to avoid the rider's bad hands.

I have never, ever had a horse (even a just backed horse) "dislike" a flash noseband. So I surmise that what they really dislike is the inability to get away from the rider's hand. :yes: Obviously, if the horse can evade the rider's bad hands then he is "happier" and more relaxed. So taking the flash off solves the problem of the horse's unhappiness, but it does not solve the underlying problem (bad riding.)

In my view, a flash noseband is purely a preventative. If a horse has already devloped a bad habit of evading the bit, a flash noseband really doesn't cure it.

Dixon
Nov. 26, 2007, 09:55 PM
Does he have a solution for a horse that lifts it's upper lip and shows you it's teeth? Horse does it in the pasture when he's having fun, on the cross ties, on trail rides, on cross country and the only place anyone seems to care - in dressage. The last judge said that he was baring his teeth at her: 4 - I think he was just smiling for the camera :lol: Last time I let anyone take pictures of my dressage :lol:

Oh my -- you must paralyze that upper lip so that the horse can no longer bare his front teeth, much like some folks sever horses' tailbone nerves to prevent distracting swishing, or nerve-block their lower legs to prevent distracting limping. At the very least, inject your horse's upper lip with temporary tranquilizer right before your dressage tests, to suppress his smile.

LarkspurCO
Nov. 26, 2007, 10:32 PM
If a horse dislikes a flash and goes well and quietly without one, it's because he is evading the rider's hand? I don't follow the logic. If the rider has bad hands, wouldn't this be reflected in the horse?

My horse dislikes flashes and dropped nosebands because he has itchy lips (it's true you can ask him, he'll tell you). He goes fine in a standard cavesson, with a a quiet mouth. I must be doing something wrong.:confused:

nightmoves
Nov. 26, 2007, 10:43 PM
My horse wears a flash becaues my trainer said so;) He doesn't mind the flash so much but he absolutely hates when the slobber and foam collect on the sides of the flash.

sublimequine
Nov. 27, 2007, 12:44 AM
In some respects with trained horses, that is generally correct. Many riders think that their horses are "objecting to the flash" or dropped noseband, when actually they are objecting to the rider's hands. When the horse is wearing a flash, it makes it difficult for him to open his mouth, cross his jaws or do any of the other evasions that would make it possible for him to avoid the rider's bad hands.

I have never, ever had a horse (even a just backed horse) "dislike" a flash noseband. So I surmise that what they really dislike is the inability to get away from the rider's hand. :yes: Obviously, if the horse can evade the rider's bad hands then he is "happier" and more relaxed. So taking the flash off solves the problem of the horse's unhappiness, but it does not solve the underlying problem (bad riding.)

In my view, a flash noseband is purely a preventative. If a horse has already devloped a bad habit of evading the bit, a flash noseband really doesn't cure it.

I can actually vouch that some horses actually don't like certain kinds of nosebands. I tried a drop noseband on my mare once (I'll admit, I tried it because I LOOOOOVE the look of drop nosebands, not for any practical reason though :lol: ). She never even really moves her mouth regularly, let alone chomping or anything.

The SECOND she felt that drop around her shnoz, the mouth GAPED open (I didn't have it tight, it was just for looks :lol: ), and she was one unhappy camper. I got about halfway through my warmup before getting off and taking off the drop. Problem solved, she went back to her happy self. Although I admit, she's a little diva. :winkgrin:

Wellspotted
Nov. 27, 2007, 01:40 AM
I don't know what an ODG* is but BNTs have NOT in fact "always" used flashes--look at older photos.

Some people use them because "everyone else" uses them.
Some people probably use them because they think the cavesson with the flash attachment looks silly without the flash, and, as you said, it's hard to find a black bridle without one.
Most people I know ride in black bridles with flash attachments but without the flash strap.
If you can't find a black bridle without a flash attachment, buy a brown bridle. I see lots of them without the flash, and very few with. There is nothing wrong with doing dressage in brown tack. Only it's like the flash--"everyone" does dressage in black tack, at least over here; not so, from what I've heard, elsewhere.

*Old Dressage Goddess?

Eclectic Horseman
Nov. 27, 2007, 09:37 AM
I don't know what an ODG* is but BNTs have NOT in fact "always" used flashes--look at older photos.

Some people use them because "everyone else" uses them.
Some people probably use them because they think the cavesson with the flash attachment looks silly without the flash, and, as you said, it's hard to find a black bridle without one.
Most people I know ride in black bridles with flash attachments but without the flash strap.
If you can't find a black bridle without a flash attachment, buy a brown bridle. I see lots of them without the flash, and very few with. There is nothing wrong with doing dressage in brown tack. Only it's like the flash--"everyone" does dressage in black tack, at least over here; not so, from what I've heard, elsewhere.
*Old Dressage Goddess?

Flashes are traditionally used with a snaffle. :yes: They are not used with a curb or with a double bridle. :no:

P.S. ODG means "old dead guy." These are the masters of classical dressage.

Eclectic Horseman
Nov. 27, 2007, 09:45 AM
If a horse dislikes a flash and goes well and quietly without one, it's because he is evading the rider's hand? I don't follow the logic. If the rider has bad hands, wouldn't this be reflected in the horse?

My horse dislikes flashes and dropped nosebands because he has itchy lips (it's true you can ask him, he'll tell you). He goes fine in a standard cavesson, with a a quiet mouth. I must be doing something wrong.:confused:

No, of course not. Where did I say that? A horse that is exhibiting a bit evasion will most frequently open his mouth, hang his tongue out, grab the bit with his teeth, etc, etc. If the horse isn't doing that, then he is not exhibiting a bit evasion.

If the horse is in a flash, it is harder for him to evade the bit, and he will react in ways that make it appear that he dislikes the flash. If you take the flash off, then the horse can more easily evade the bit, and to the inexperienced rider, it may feel that the horse is "more relaxed." The observer can see if the horse is opening his mouth or hanging his tongue--other bit evasions are more subtle and a less skilled rider may not be able to identify them.

Be aware, however, that even with excellent riding, if you start to get to some work that is difficult for the horse, that these types of evasions can occur at any time and they are more easily prevented than cured.

Also note that a properly adjusted flash leaves room for a finger underneath. It is not overly tightened and it is not placed on the head so that it puts pressure on the soft cartilege of the horse's nose or restricts the breathing. Obviously a horse will object to an incorrectly adjusted flash noseband as well.

grayarabpony
Nov. 27, 2007, 09:50 AM
Because the flash keeps the mouth closed and assists you with keeping the contact steady to the bit. Less jiggly in the mouth. This is not a bad thing. Why would you not want one? Contrary to popular belief if is not to force poor horsie's mouth closed.

Flashes can create a whole other problem: some horses lean on the flash when they can't chew.

sunkistbey
Nov. 27, 2007, 11:08 AM
When I put a flash on a horse I don't know, I do the "treat test" that Dr. Gahwyler taught me. Give the horse a treat with his cavesson and flash on. If he can't chew the treat, the noseband is too tight. If he can chew the treat, he can chew the bit. :winkgrin:

Like all equipment it's a tool that when used correctly can be a big help. When used incorrectly it can be as abusive as you want it to be. When you see pics of horses with flesh bulging out of the sides of a flash, you know it's not adjusted correctly. Doesn't make the flash bad, only the hands that tightened it.

Wellspotted
Nov. 27, 2007, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Eclectic Horseman:

Flashes are traditionally used with a snaffle. They are not used with a curb or with a double bridle.

REALLY?!?!? My goodness, I had no idea! And here I've been wondering why I never see any double bridles with flashes in the Dressage Extensions catalogues! :eek: :rolleyes: :p :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I said "old photos", I think--not "old photos of horses wearing double bridles."



P.S. ODG means "old dead guy." These are the masters of classical dressage.

Goodness, what a respectful way to refer to the greats. :no: :eek: :rolleyes::sigh:

I think I'll keep thinking it stands for Old Dressage Goddess. :lol:

Eclectic Horseman
Nov. 27, 2007, 04:43 PM
REALLY?!?!? My goodness, I had no idea! And here I've been wondering why I never see any double bridles with flashes in the Dressage Extensions catalogues! :eek: :rolleyes: :p :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I said "old photos", I think--not "old photos of horses wearing double bridles."



Goodness, what a respectful way to refer to the greats. :no: :eek: :rolleyes::sigh:

I think I'll keep thinking it stands for Old Dressage Goddess. :lol:


Most of the old photos that I have seen of BNTs and classical masters are photos in books and magazines taken at FEI classes at shows, clinics and exhibitions. I didn't mean catalog photos.


I cannot take credit or blame for having invented the ODG acronym. If you will do a search you will see that it is commonly used on this board--long before I arrived on the scene.

Wellspotted
Nov. 27, 2007, 05:04 PM
Methinks you do assume too much, Eclectic Horseman! (Love the name, BTW!--seriously)

I didn't mean photos in old catalogues. The catalogues to which I was referring are the current ones distributed by Dressage Extensions; I could just have easily said "Dover" or any other of a number of catalogues.

By "older photos" I meant photos in older books on dressage. I never even HEARD of a flash until I started taking dressage lessons about 3 years ago. The horses in the photos in the older books I read when I was young did not have flashes on their SNAFFLE bridles any more than on their FULL (or DOUBLE) bridles.

I never accused you of coining the "ODG" acronym. I just don't think it's a respectful way to refer to older, skilled riders (or to anyone else who deserves respect). I would probably have more respect for YOU if, rather than crying off for not having invented the acronym, you did not use it. Just because someone invented a derogatory term is no reason for anyone else to spread it around.

Threedaydream
Nov. 27, 2007, 06:19 PM
I thought it was Old Dressage Gurus

Did I start my first trainwreck??

petitefilly
Nov. 27, 2007, 06:41 PM
MHO The flash is nearly NEVER needed, and all this is just **fashion**. Hardly ever does a person take it off and declare, "oh,my. I never needed that". :( More should! It's something that can be sold, so people buy it. So far, I've never needed one, and most of the horses I've seen do not need it. Naturally YMMV! :)

M.K.Smith
Nov. 27, 2007, 07:09 PM
Blixen Finecke used to say: If the horse runs around the pasture with the the mouth open :lol:use a flash/drop, but, if he does it only when ridden; figure out why he is opening the mouth

Love the quote... that's signature worthy to me!

I just bought a schooling bridle... nothing fancy... made in India, but decent quality for an Indian bridle... I think it was on sale for $44. Unfortunately, it only came with a flash... 1st thing I did was take the flash off! I'm contemplating cutting off the little attachment for the flash.

I find it frustrating that I have such difficulty in purchasing a bridle without a flash because stores rarely carry them, but it makes sense that stores carry what people want & most people want a flash. I have noticed that Stubben has them listed without... I guess if I want another nice flashless bridle (I do have a stubben with white padding), I'll just need to find a tack store that will order it for me.

I always find it interesting what different disciplines do... in western show rings- bridles don't even have nosebands, I don't believe that show hunters use flashes, but you see flashes on dressage horses and eventers. I also love seeing what was used historically for tack (again across the disciplines).

I also find it very interesting the number of people who use tack because "my trainer told me" or "everybody does." Honestly, I love to know so much more about the mechanics of how different tack works and when it is beneficial and when it isn't necessary. Look at the vast array of bits available... why do some work better with different horses? Sometimes it is the shape of the mouth, the horse's individual comfort... but how does one ever learn all the intricacies?

I tend to be simple... I like a full cheek snaffle (I know not exactly dressagy, but I started with hunters), especially for starting youngsters... I've seen bits pulled through a horses mouth and it's not pretty! I'm not a fan of flashes or martingales or overly tightened crank nosebands. I don't use draw reins. When I'm starting a youngster I will at times use sidereins and a surcingle when I lunge, but often that is more to keep their heads out of the grass and their mind on work moreso than as a real training technique. ;) I will say that sidereins were very beneficial to getting my standardbred balance better... I hadn't been using them or would put them on a lower setting. My trainer watched me work her once... had me set them higher and we worked on really getting her to push from behind... within a few session you wouldn't have know it was the same mare... off of the forehand she came! I would have NEVER figured that out on my own, but that's why I'm an ammie & she's a pro & that's why I love my trainer! She has an incredible knack for knowing exactly what will work for each individual horse! :cool:

I'm sure there are horses out there that need a flash or benefit from a flash, but for me personally they aren't something I care to use and I'm not a fan of them.

lddowler
Nov. 27, 2007, 07:14 PM
Buy a padded double and remove the bradoon strap. They unbuckle and slide out, no biggie.

Yup, I agree. Then you've got the extra pieces for when you're ready to move up to a double.

Wellspotted
Nov. 27, 2007, 08:23 PM
Actually, Threedaydream, I think you succeeded in diverting one! :yes:


Originally posted by 4Martini:

The last judge said that he was baring his teeth at her: 4

And there you have the definition of a DQ (the judge)! :lol:

LarkspurCO
Nov. 27, 2007, 11:27 PM
No, of course not. Where did I say that?

You didn't. I apologize for my snotty remark. Your reasoning makes sense.


Be aware, however, that even with excellent riding, if you start to get to some work that is difficult for the horse, that these types of evasions can occur at any time and they are more easily prevented than cured.

That's an interesting observation. I have seen several horses that hang their tongues out or grind their teeth, and they were wearing flashes.

4Martini
Nov. 27, 2007, 11:50 PM
And there you have the definition of a DQ (the judge)! :lol:

Ha Ha Ha - I wonder if my husband is a DQ - he told me he doesn't like trail running with me on this horse (while I ride at a trot.) He thinks the horse looks threatening with his front teeth showing. He's afraid the horse wants to take him - So, the judge isn't the only one who didn't see it as a smile.


Oh my -- you must paralyze that upper lip so that the horse can no longer bare his front teeth, much like some folks sever horses' tailbone nerves to prevent distracting swishing, or nerve-block their lower legs to prevent distracting limping. At the very least, inject your horse's upper lip with temporary tranquilizer right before your dressage tests, to suppress his smile.

I was thinking of a slightly different approach: giving him a big bowl of rice bran 15 minutes before the ride - so he would still be sucking it off his teeth :lol::lol::lol: Not sure what the judge would think of his intense concentration and wrinkled nose?

For the OP, Bobby's tack makes nice affordable bridles and I'm pretty sure you can configure what you want on their web page.

Threedaydream
Nov. 28, 2007, 01:03 AM
Do they have a different website besides eqtack.com? Because I checked there and couldn't find one sans flash that was padded and black/black.

Eclectic Horseman
Nov. 28, 2007, 11:27 AM
Methinks you do assume too much, Eclectic Horseman! (Love the name, BTW!--seriously)

I didn't mean photos in old catalogues. The catalogues to which I was referring are the current ones distributed by Dressage Extensions; I could just have easily said "Dover" or any other of a number of catalogues.

By "older photos" I meant photos in older books on dressage. I never even HEARD of a flash until I started taking dressage lessons about 3 years ago. The horses in the photos in the older books I read when I was young did not have flashes on their SNAFFLE bridles any more than on their FULL (or DOUBLE) bridles.

I never accused you of coining the "ODG" acronym. I just don't think it's a respectful way to refer to older, skilled riders (or to anyone else who deserves respect). I would probably have more respect for YOU if, rather than crying off for not having invented the acronym, you did not use it. Just because someone invented a derogatory term is no reason for anyone else to spread it around.

What you might be seeing in old photos of horses in snaffles is a dropped noseband. These were invented and are still used at the SRS in Vienna. The dropped noseband fastens under the bit and performs the same preventative training function as a flash noseband. The dropped noseband has gone out of fashion--it doesn't seem to be flattering on most horse's heads. With the Lipizzan's roman nose, I guess it didn't matter. ;)

Oh, and I don't think the ODG's feelings are hurt, do you? Lighten up. :rolleyes:

Threedaydream
Nov. 28, 2007, 12:18 PM
I don't know Wellspotted, but she/(he?) certainly seems bright enough to know the difference between a drop and french cavesson. I don't think you need to be quite so patronizing.

Wellspotted
Nov. 28, 2007, 12:19 PM
You're still making assumptions, EH. Now you're apparently assuming that I don't know the difference between a dropped noseband and a cavesson. :rolleyes: :sigh: :lol:

You just don't get it, do you? I never SAID the past masters of dressage would have their feelings hurt! I don't know if you do dressage, or how you do it, but if you know anything about it at all you might do well to adopt and adapt its principles and practices when you get into discussions! :yes:

I have no intention of discussing this further! :no:

Threedaydream:

Is this the sort of bridle you're looking for?--

http://www.trumbullmtn.com/Bridle_pages/BO-RAISEDblack.jpg

Description here--

http://www.trumbullmtn.com/Bridle_pages/Bridles_3.htm

I apologize for my part in your thread getting off course. I hope you find the kind of bridle you're looking for. We got a Bobby's cavesson for our horse when his old cavesson broke. It's quite nice--just wasn't really big enough for him!

Eclectic Horseman
Nov. 28, 2007, 12:35 PM
You're still making assumptions, EH. Now you're apparently assuming that I don't know the difference between a dropped noseband and a cavesson. :rolleyes: :sigh: :lol:

You just don't get it, do you? I never SAID the past masters of dressage would have their feelings hurt! I don't know if you do dressage, or how you do it, but if you know anything about it at all you might do well to adopt and adapt its principles and practices when you get into discussions! :yes:

I have no intention of discussing this further! :no:



I guess you mean that I should wear a dropped or flash noseband to keep my mouth shut? :lol::lol::lol:

The wide use of the dropped or flash noseband with a snaffle bit by most respected dressage trainers living and dead is definately something that people can observe for themselves by opening a book or magazine. No need to argue the point.

Janet
Nov. 28, 2007, 12:43 PM
Does he have a solution for a horse that lifts it's upper lip and shows you it's teeth? Horse does it in the pasture when he's having fun, on the cross ties, on trail rides, on cross country and the only place anyone seems to care - in dressage. The last judge said that he was baring his teeth at her: 4 - I think he was just smiling for the camera :lol: Last time I let anyone take pictures of my dressage :lol:
He is probably displaying a "Flehmen response" (sp?). Horses have smell detectors inside the lip as well as in the nostrils, and they will curl back the upper lip in order to "smell" better. Seems to be more common with stallions and geldings than mares.

If you care about it, I would put Vicks Vaporub, or something similar, in his nostrils for shows. That way he won't be trying to investigate the intersting smells of all the new (to him) horses.

Janet
Nov. 28, 2007, 12:46 PM
If you look at "old pictures" of horses doing dressage in snaffles, the vast majority of them will be wearing dropped nosebands.

Flash nosebands are a new invention, so you won't find them in old pictures. It was my understanding that they were invented about the time the Germans Warmblood sales started taking off, as a way of attaching a standing martingale without giving up the effect of a dropped noseband.

Threedaydream
Nov. 28, 2007, 05:03 PM
Wellspotted, I'm looking for something a bit more padded than that. And don't worry, I think the discussion is entertaining.:D

DaisyMae
Nov. 28, 2007, 08:08 PM
Do you need an entirely new bridle? If all you need is a padded noseband w/out a flash then take a look at this one from EQTACK http://www.eqtack.com/catalog/product_info.php?pName=201bw-padded-78-noseband&cName=dressage-tack-nosebands

Touchstone Farm
Nov. 28, 2007, 10:40 PM
I don't see anything wrong with flashes or dropped nosebands (Reiner Klimke rode many of his horses in dropped nosebands). The reasons being it helps stabilize the bit and prevents the horse from seriously opening the mouth and evading the contact. I haven't started that many youngsters, but those that I have, I start them all in flashes and I don't have tongue or other problems to deal with and the transition to the double bridle is no big deal.

ESG
Nov. 29, 2007, 12:45 AM
I just bought a nice raised, French cavesson bridle on eBay for $18, shipping included. Stud bit/rein ends, leather laced reins.

If a horse is going to grind its teeth/hang its tongue/open its mouth, it will do it despite having a flash/drop/crescent/crank cavesson. As others have said, find the reason for the evasion, and you will conquer it. Straps are for bondage; training is for dressage. :cool:

BumbleBee
Nov. 29, 2007, 04:22 PM
Removing the flash is much easier than working on having quiet, independent hands. :winkgrin:....

Many riders think that their horses are "objecting to the flash" or dropped noseband, when actually they are objecting to the rider's hands. When the horse is wearing a flash, it makes it difficult for him to open his mouth, cross his jaws or do any of the other evasions that would make it possible for him to avoid the rider's bad hands.



That is the most ass backward logic I have ever heard. Thanks I really got a kick out of that. I guess what your saying is possible but the alternative is likely more common.

I ride mostly greenies. Green as grass greenies. The ones that don't even want the damb bit in their mouth let alone try to understand it. I start them without ANY nose band as I want to know how they progress with bit aceptance. I have had a few litterally not close their mouths at all during their first few rides forget bit aceptance first we need tolerance of the bit. Those I generally start in a halter with reins attached and just let them carry the bit.

As we progress and start to trust the bit if they suddenly start resisting again or opening their mouths then I know we either have a tooth problem, a mouth piece problem, or my hands are not as good as they need to be for some reason.

I prefer to fix one of the above 3 things and know when their mouth stays shut it's because I am riding well and my mount is comfortable.

I have nothing against peoples use of the flash it simply isn't something I want to do. I need to know when something is even a tiny bit wrong or else how can I fix it.

Eclectic Horseman
Nov. 30, 2007, 03:27 PM
That is the most ass backward logic I have ever heard. Thanks I really got a kick out of that. I guess what your saying is possible but the alternative is likely more common.

I ride mostly greenies. Green as grass greenies. The ones that don't even want the damb bit in their mouth let alone try to understand it. I start them without ANY nose band as I want to know how they progress with bit aceptance. I have had a few litterally not close their mouths at all during their first few rides forget bit aceptance first we need tolerance of the bit. Those I generally start in a halter with reins attached and just let them carry the bit.

As we progress and start to trust the bit if they suddenly start resisting again or opening their mouths then I know we either have a tooth problem, a mouth piece problem, or my hands are not as good as they need to be for some reason.

I prefer to fix one of the above 3 things and know when their mouth stays shut it's because I am riding well and my mount is comfortable.

I have nothing against peoples use of the flash it simply isn't something I want to do. I need to know when something is even a tiny bit wrong or else how can I fix it.

It is not necessarily wrong when the horse opens his mouth or otherwise attempts to evade the bit. It is part of the training process. If you don't ever have this problem, then you must be being trained by the horse instead of the reverse. Young horses don't necessarily "like" a lot of things. Saddles, blankets, bits etc etc. Horses will object to all new things, and things that are difficult and strange. Trainers train the horse to accept them. A flash or dropped noseband is no different.

The classical trainers (including the SRS) always use a flash or dropped noseband. I guess I figure that it is for a reason. :sigh: Personally, I don't think that I am better than they are.

BumbleBee
Nov. 30, 2007, 07:06 PM
It is not necessarily wrong when the horse opens his mouth or otherwise attempts to evade the bit. It is part of the training process. . Not sure where you got the ides they never open their mouths. Did you miss the part where I said for the first few rides some had their mouths open the entire time?


If you don't ever have this problem, then you must be being trained by the horse instead of the reverse. Young horses don't necessarily "like" a lot of things. Saddles, blankets, bits etc etc. Horses will object to all new things, and things that are difficult and strange. Trainers train the horse to accept them. A flash or dropped noseband is no different.
Again I guess you missed the part where I said I like to know when something is wrong so I can fix it.

Personally I think there are worse things than opening a mouth. While they are learning especially I would prefer they were able to open their mouths instead of being forced to proteset in another manner such as head tossing, rearing, or simply getting agitated and tense.



The classical trainers (including the SRS) always use a flash or dropped noseband. I guess I figure that it is for a reason. :sigh: Personally, I don't think that I am better than they are. Oh I do:sigh:... again did you miss the part where I said "I have nothing against peoples use of the flash it simply isn't something I want to do. "

The only reason I posted was to correct your assumption that people who don't use flashes do so because they have bad hands. There is more than one road to Rome.

islandrider
Dec. 2, 2007, 01:10 PM
I'm a "re-rider", just started riding again 4 years ago after a 25 year break. Odd that suddenly flashes are so common. I've wondered about this. How is it that horses did just fine without them, (I do have a shelf or two full of books by the Old Dressage Gurus and not a single horse has a flash) then suddenly there are evasion problems and the flash to go with it? My horse had lots of evasion probs when I first met him, ALL from ill fitting tack. Just last night I watched an old western and noticed that again, ALL the horses had really high head carriage and uber-developed under-neck muscles, hollow backs, etc, seemingly also all ridden in what looked to be spade/ or high curbs. Duh. I just cringe when I think of all the poor beasts being ridden in more and more tack that is heaped on to "fix" probs that possibly come from the tack itself. I am NOT saying this is always the case of course, and god knows I am NOT a trainer or a DQ, but still. Tack fashionistas, please think twice and be conscious of marketing trends even having to do with our beloved horse friends.

Carol O
Dec. 3, 2007, 11:37 PM
What's an ODG?

Threedaydream
Dec. 3, 2007, 11:39 PM
It seems like it depends on the poster, but from what I've heard it could mean:
Old Dead Guy
Old Dressage Godess
Old Dressage Guru

Carol O
Dec. 3, 2007, 11:44 PM
Yikes...

Well, I am over 50, so I will claim the Old Dressage Goddess, I guess, and put in my vote for the drop over the flash.