PDA

View Full Version : Trainers showing Training Level???



StrawberryFrosted
Nov. 25, 2007, 10:25 PM
Ok, I would love to get your guy's opinions on why trainers would show training level....

I have seen this at numerous shows and don't understand it.
One example: trainer (who shows fourth level) gets on a student's horse and rides the horse in the Training level open class. Student rides same horse in the Training level novice rider class.
What is the point?? Student obviously can walk, trot, canter so why have the trainer ride the horse at all?

In the end, trainer gets Champion for year end awards in the Training level class and other riders get bumped because they actually ride Training level.

Is this common practice???

mbarrett
Nov. 25, 2007, 10:34 PM
I'm by no means an expert, but if there is an Open Training class, pros can enter it. "Open" means open to anyone, pros or ammy's. It could be the same thing if the class is "Maiden Horse". There isn't a restriction on who rides the horse, but on the level of the horse. I'm sure others who are more familiar with dressage class listings will give you a better answer.

It's not an uncommon occurance for a trainer to "tune up" a horse for an ammy rider. It happens in a lot of disciplines. Is it fair? Yes and no. It's just the way it is.

Cooper
Nov. 25, 2007, 10:35 PM
Maybe they are on a green bean, and want to give the horse the benefit of a confident ride.

Carol Ames
Nov. 25, 2007, 10:38 PM
Perhaps the horse needs more ring/show mileage; ie; he may wwin when he actually enters the arena/does not spook at the judge,;) but , it'seither win or the big 'E':lol:gren horse?. I admit to having had several horses like that.One who would consscontently "blow " the first class , but, then win the 2nd.

dutchmike
Nov. 25, 2007, 10:39 PM
If it is a green horse then what do you want the trainer to enter?. Grand Prix?. A green horse has to start somewhere but if it is a 4th level horse then ofcourse it shouldn't be allowed

ltw
Nov. 25, 2007, 10:44 PM
Where would you suggest a trainer start showing a young or green horse? By the way, you should rethink your definition of trainer. All riders should learn or strive to be trainers of their horses (with oversite). Maybe what you meant was "professional".

A three, four or five year old belongs at training level in most cases. Or a horse that has no show mileage what so ever belongs at training level.

Try to change your view to realize that the training scale of the levels is for the horse in most cases, not the rider. If we are following that training scale we start at Training level and move the horse up as it progresses and is ready for each new challenge.

As the rider progresses, he/she too should move up the levels, training level should not be an end unto itself.

I am an amateur but I raise and get my youngsters to their first shows. I have shown many horses through the years at training and first level. I bring out a young horse each year at this level. This is where they get their show mileage and learn to get use to all of the noises, sites and sounds of the show environment. They do not yet have lengthenings or the balance to do any more typically. In some cases they are green broke and barely understand left, right whoa, go.

Gucci Cowgirl
Nov. 25, 2007, 10:46 PM
I will ride a client's horse in the first test of the day if they are nervous, or just not comfortable, or if the horse is really green, or really hot.

I think it is part of a trainer's job to make sure they are always there to help support their clients, and be willing to get on first in the case of a tougher horse. Some amateurs get very nervous/overwhelmed if their horse acts up, or whatever. It is supposed to be fun, so why make a big deal if they aren't comfortable? Horses know when their rider is insecure, so they could even be worse if their rider is too nervous.

And anyways, most trainers I know don't really care about placings, they just want a clean test, and an honest horse in the ring.

Unless, of course, they are trying to qualify for regional awards etc.

StrawberryFrosted
Nov. 25, 2007, 10:55 PM
The horse was not green and the horse was ridden by the student on the same day. The student has about 8 years of total riding under her belt and was showing in the novice rider class. Then the trainer took her into the open class.
I know some trainers who show green horses and ask not to be "placed" but just given a score so they know how well the horse did.

Again, this particular horse was not green. If it was I would understand the student not riding the horse BUT this student showed the horse all day.

atr
Nov. 25, 2007, 11:07 PM
Really, I don't care. You never know what someone else's motivation is--maybe the rider was scared, maybe the horse pulled a wicked stunt last time it was in the ring or had an unsettling experience.

She showed the horse open, so no problem.

yaya
Nov. 25, 2007, 11:53 PM
There is a limit to how many times a horse can be shown in one day. Also, a horse can only ride each test only once. (Trainer and student can't ride the same test)

As long as these rules were not broken, what's the problem?

eggbutt
Nov. 26, 2007, 10:09 AM
[quote=StrawberryFrosted;2826354]In the end, trainer gets Champion for year end awards in the Training level class and other riders get bumped because they actually ride Training level.
quote]

Perhaps your year end awards should be revised to separate AA, O, and Jr/Yr categories. It seems that would solve your concern. Either that or your show managers could provide separate classes for AA, O, and Jr/Yr, which isn't feasible at most schooling shows.

dressagediosa
Nov. 26, 2007, 10:32 AM
Perhaps your year end awards should be revised to separate AA, O, and Jr/Yr categories.

Or you could take pride in how well you and your horse did at that show or over the season, and reflect on what you learned from the experience, and realize it doesn't matter how anyone else did. One of the things I love about our sport is that we get a score and a sheet of comments at the end of our ride, so we know why we placed first with a 58% or dead last with a 72%, and can be satisfied, or not, or whatever. :)

Training Level isn't a level for rookie riders. It's a level for horse and rider combinations who aren't ready for First Level, simple as that. Whether that's because the rider is green, or because the horse is green, or because one or both are terrified, it's irrelevant.

JanWeber
Nov. 26, 2007, 10:39 AM
Our GMO divides year-end awards into "Not Shown Above 2nd Level" and "Shown Above 2nd Level" to separate the more experienced riders/trainers from those genuinely at the lower levels.

rabicon
Nov. 26, 2007, 10:40 AM
You say the horse is not green. What level is the horse trained to?? I think everyone has said it pretty well. Who cares if shes been riding for 8 years. Maybe this was said trainers idea because she thinks the horse needs a little more confidence and not the rider. There are a ton of reasons and possiblities this could be. Maybe the trainer likes the horse and the horse does well for her so its a little tune up before the student enters the ring. By the way you never said where the student ended up at the end of the year awards.

seeuatx
Nov. 26, 2007, 12:19 PM
I am a rider guilty of having my trainer show my horse at training level. This was several years ago, and my horse had a way of retaliating if you asked for the canter incorrectly. He would either flip his head 5 inches from your nose, or bolt. Needless to say I became nervous, so if I could talk my trainer into showing him in the first class of the morning. That was great for the first year I had him. That class was usually training 1 or 2 that first year and my trainer at the time had ridden PSG.

While I had shown training on my old horse, and this horse was not green, we were not capable of showing training all the time, because he was a much more sensitive ride than I was used to and we took a lot of steps backwards before we progressed together.

P.S. we then showed 1st level for 4 years before moving on to 2nd, because once again we weren't ready to move up confidently. There are no time limits for any level.

dotneko
Nov. 26, 2007, 12:21 PM
The reason could also have been that the professional was
giving the owner a 'goal'. i.e., If I can show your horse to
a %65 in a certain class and he is not a loon with me, then
you know it is possible. The student can try to improve
upon the trainer's score.
(Sometimes that works the other way around - the owner
gets the higher score. We just say it is because the horse
loooves his owner - knd of a 'my friend flicka' thing)

Dot

Velvet
Nov. 26, 2007, 12:22 PM
Who paid for the class? Often owners want the trainers to compete the horse not only for the horse's experience, but for year end awards that they know they can't get on the horse.

It's perfectly fine and legal. The class is designated as "open", which means it's for all people of all skill levels to compete on an equal level. Personally, I still don't see why amateurs have to have their own classes. Why not have everyone ride against each other? Riding is riding and you need to learn to be competent at each level against all people before moving on. (At least that's my opinion. *shrug*)

CatOnLap
Nov. 26, 2007, 01:15 PM
unbelievable whining.

If you want to win against a better rider, learn to ride better.
The test is about the skill of the team. A pro on a green, scared or otherwise low level horse is just as valid as an ammy riding a schoolmaster, which is just as valid as one of us riding our self trained grade horse at that level.

However, many clubs make their pros inelegible for most of their year end awards and that evens things out a bit.

Janet
Nov. 26, 2007, 01:39 PM
Ok, I would love to get your guy's opinions on why trainers would show training level....

I have seen this at numerous shows and don't understand it.
One example: trainer (who shows fourth level) gets on a student's horse and rides the horse in the Training level open class. Student rides same horse in the Training level novice rider class.
What is the point?? Student obviously can walk, trot, canter so why have the trainer ride the horse at all?

In the end, trainer gets Champion for year end awards in the Training level class and other riders get bumped because they actually ride Training level.

Is this common practice???
What a load of sour grapes.

If the HORSE is a Training level horse, of COURSE it is appropriate for the trainer to ride it a Training level. There wouldn't be much point in the trainer taking it a First level when it is still Training level horse, would there?

In case you hadn't noticed, there is a LOT more to a good Training level test than just "can walk, trot, canter ".

flshgordon
Nov. 26, 2007, 01:42 PM
The horse was not green and the horse was ridden by the student on the same day. The student has about 8 years of total riding under her belt and was showing in the novice rider class. Then the trainer took her into the open class.
I know some trainers who show green horses and ask not to be "placed" but just given a score so they know how well the horse did.

Again, this particular horse was not green. If it was I would understand the student not riding the horse BUT this student showed the horse all day.

I have about 25+ years of riding and spent the entire year showing at training level. It may not have anything to do with the rider.

And as for the year end awards, most clubs split open/aa/jr so that shouldn't even be a concern.

twnkltoz
Nov. 26, 2007, 01:59 PM
Some people do it so they can get wins and championships in ATR and Open. Also, good to see how the horse scores with your pro vs you.

RiverOaksFarm
Nov. 26, 2007, 02:16 PM
I went to a show a couple of weekends ago. I took three horses, and showed Training Level on two of them. We won all of our Training Level classes with scores in the 70's (and I am a pro, and one was a client's horse.) On the surface maybe I looked like a greedy ribbon chaser who didn't belong in Training Level? Whereas in reality both were 4 year old stallions -- first show for one of them, second show for the other. I guess what I'm saying is that you don't always know the whole story, and you can choose to assume the worst -- or not:).

Even if the person in this scenario *is* a ribbon chaser, there isn't a single thing you can do about it, so it's best to just let it go, and focus more on your own rides instead, imo. The USDF has done pretty much everything in their power to make the year-end awards as fair as possible, but it's the nature of our sport that there will never be a 100% level playing field.

yankeeclipper
Nov. 26, 2007, 03:05 PM
My trainer rode my green horse at several schooling shows this year to get him out and about. She did it because he really, really trusts her. He stood quietly, curious and alert as they were setting up the food tent for her. Now with me we probably would have been half away across the county. :D

Portia
Nov. 26, 2007, 03:34 PM
Isn't the point of having Open, Adult Amateur, and Jr. divisions so that people compete against their peers and don't have to compete against pros? In the open divisions around here, virtually everyone is a pro so it doesn't matter whether they are showing training level or 4th level -- they aren't competing against AAs or Jrs.

For the record, my trainer shows my horse in training level. He's five years old and he had only shown once before I just bought him 6 months ago, and he has just recently figured out where his very long legs are going at the canter. So training level is the right place for him for now. :)

NOMIOMI1
Nov. 26, 2007, 03:55 PM
I wish mine would :) No really!

Mozart
Nov. 26, 2007, 04:12 PM
If the horse is eligible for Training level....not really seeing the problem.

merrygoround
Nov. 26, 2007, 04:47 PM
You've gotten some straight forward, good answers. Now Unfrost yourself, get some whipped cream, and relax. :yes: :yes: :)

StrawberryFrosted
Nov. 26, 2007, 05:42 PM
unbelievable whining.

CatOnLap...if you read my original post I wasn't whining. I really wanted to know how common it is for trainers to ride student's horses (that are not green, or 4 year old stallions, or who have never shown before).
Most clubs, as people stated break up the pro from the AA's. In this particular case, they did not.

Someone else stated some people are ribbon chasers and this may be the case, I really don't know and really don't care.

I had good scores all year, so it doesn't really matter to me but when you are trying to get sponsorships etc, it's always nice to be able to have a Year End Award on your resume. If you ride against pros, most likely you may not win.

I have ridden against pros in a few shows bc that was my only choice...one judge placed me above the pro in both tests and another judge place me below the pro the next day. Either way, I thought I rode 4 really good tests so I didn't care.

No need to get our panties in a bunch :eek:...again I wanted to know the reasons why trainers ride at lower levels and showing green horses makes sense!

I'm now on to opening my whippped cream! :lol:

Janet
Nov. 26, 2007, 05:51 PM
I am a bit confused by this response

I had good scores all year, so it doesn't really matter to me but when you are trying to get sponsorships etc, it's always nice to be able to have a Year End Award on your resume. If you ride against pros, most likely you may not win.
If you have sponsorship, you ARE a pro.

StrawberryFrosted
Nov. 26, 2007, 05:59 PM
Janet,
You can get sponsors and not be a pro...I've been riding a 1 1/2 years. They are local not national sposors.

Janet
Nov. 26, 2007, 06:06 PM
GR808 Amateur Status.
1. Regardless of one’s equestrian skills and/or accomplishments, a person is an amateur for all competitions conducted under Federation rules who after his/her 18th birthday, as defined in GR101, has not engaged in any of the following activities which would make him/her a professional

...

d. Accepts remuneration for the use of his or her name, photograph or other form of personal association as a horseman in connection with any advertisement or article to be sold.

I would be surprised to find a "sponsorship" (local or otherwise) that didn't fall under 808.1.d

CLB15
Nov. 26, 2007, 06:10 PM
If the show series doesn't have a large enough "pool" to separate Year-End categories into Jr/YR, AA and Open, they probably just do Juniors & Seniors (combining AAs & Pros). I don't have an issue with trainers doing training level with their own horses or clients, though I'd probably think differently if they were the type to ride the same horse at the same level for more then a couple seasons. I've earned higher scores then Pro's before, AAs have earned higher scores then juniors, Juniors have scored above pro's. If the Pro is competing in a class that is OPEN to both pros and adult am's, then they're following the rules.

Pretty sure any "sponsorship" level makes a rider a pro, unless they are a Jr/YR. There are rules for every person & every situation that tried to get around the "pro/sponsorship" rules.

rabicon
Nov. 26, 2007, 06:16 PM
Frost you never answered my questions. What level horse is the horse and how did the owner do on the horse. Any year end awards for the owner?

StrawberryFrosted
Nov. 26, 2007, 06:17 PM
CLB,
So if you are a JR/YR, you can get sponsors w/out going pro, otherwise, no matter what level of sponsorship you get, you would be considered a pro? Is that correct?

Janet
Nov. 26, 2007, 06:18 PM
CLB,
So if you are a JR/YR, you can get sponsors w/out going pro, otherwise, no matter what level of sponsorship you get, you would be considered a pro? Is that correct?
Yes. That is correct.

StrawberryFrosted
Nov. 26, 2007, 06:19 PM
Rabicon,
I think the horse is Training level (which makes sense, since both showed the horse at that level) and the student earned an award for Intro, not training.

rebecca yount
Nov. 26, 2007, 06:19 PM
Edited to add: Janet, I believe you and I had the same idea and were posting at the same time. What can I say--great minds think alike!

Strawberry Frosted: I believe you are wrong. Here is an exerpt from the USEF Rule Book. Look at 1d:

GR808 Amateur Status.
1. Regardless of one’s equestrian skills and/or accomplishments, a person is an amateur
for all competitions conducted under Federation rules who after his/her 18th birthday, as
defined in GR101, has not engaged in any of the following activities which would make
him/her a professional. Exception: In the Dressage Division, individuals are only eligible to
compete as amateurs from the beginning of the calendar year in which they reach age 22.
See DR119.3. In the Reining Division, amateur status will be determined per Reining
Division Non Pro Conditions; see amateur status RN105. (For professionals wishing to be
re-classified as amateurs, see GR810.2.a):
a. Accepts remuneration for riding, driving, showing in halter/in hand, training,
schooling or conducting clinics or seminars.
b. Accepts remuneration for giving instructions in equitation or horse training. (Persons
acting as counselors at summer camps, who are not hired in the exclusive capacity of
riding instructors are excluded and persons giving instruction and training to the
handicapped).
c. Accepts remuneration for employment in other capacity (e.g., secretary, bookkeeper,
veterinarian, groom, farrier) and gives instruction, rides, drives, shows in halter/in hand,
trains or schools horses, other than horses actually owned or leased by him/her, when
his/her employer or a member of the family of said employer or a corporation which a
member of his/her family controls, owns, boards or trains said horses.
d. Accepts remuneration for the use of his or her name, photograph or other form of
personal association as a horseman in connection with any advertisement or article to
be sold.
e. Accepts prize money in equitation or showmanship classes. Prize money may be
accepted by amateur riders in Dressage.
f. Rides, drives or shows in halter/in hand in competitions, any horse for which he/she
or a member of his/her family or a corporation which a member of his/her family
controls, receives remuneration for boarding, training, riding, driving or showing in
halter/in hand.
g. Gives instruction to any person or rides, drives or shows in halter/in hand in
competitions any horse, for which activity another person in his/her family or corporation
which a member of his/her family controls will receive remuneration for the activity.
h. Accepts remuneration, as defined in GR808.2.d, for selling horses/ponies, acts as a
paid agent in the sale of horses/ponies or takes horses/ponies on consignment for the
purpose of sale or training other than those owned wholly or in part by him/her or by a
member of his/her family or farm/ranch/syndicate/partnership/corporation which he/she
or a member of his/her family controls.
i. For Amateurs in Jumper Sections, See JP117.
j. For Amateurs in Eventing sections, see EV Appendix 3 - Participation in Horse
Trials. BOD 1/15/06 Effective 12/1/06
2. The following activities do not affect the amateur status of a person who is otherwise
qualified:
a. The writing of books or articles pertaining to horses.
b. Accepting remuneration for officiating as a judge, steward, technical delegate,
course designer, announcer or participating as a TV commentator, or accepting bona
fide remuneration for services as a veterinarian, groom, farrier, tack shop operator or
breeder, or for accepting bona fide remuneration for boarding services.
c. Accepting reimbursement for expenses without profit.
d. Accepting a token of appreciation, other than money, for riding, driving or showing in
halter/in hand. (Note: Horse board, prize money, partial support or objects of more than
$300 are considered remuneration, not small tokens of appreciation). (Also note:
accepting any amount of money, whether more or less than $300, is considered
remuneration.) Prize money won by an amateur-owner rider/driver/handler in any class
(other than equitation or showmanship) is not considered remuneration.
e. Having the occupation of veterinarian, groom, farrier or owning a tack shop or
breeding or boarding stable in itself, does not affect the amateur status of a person who
is otherwise qualified.
f. Any person who is serving an internship for college credit through his/her
respective, accredited college program, and who has never held professional status,
can accept reimbursement for expenses without profit.

It doesn't matter if it is a "national" or "local" sponsor. If you accept sponsorship I believe you are accepting an item, which is considered remuneration, which makes you NOT an amateur. So, actually, if you are doing this--YOU are the one breaking the rules, and as a professional you should NOT be showing as an amateur. The trainer was doing nothing wrong--but you might be...

I also think your OP sounds like "sour grapes". And I agree with what ltw said.

Finally--I suggest you read very carefully the USEF Rule Book--General Rules as well as rules for the Dressage Division. And remember that there are some proposed rule changes that may, if passed, take effect on 12/1/07 when the 2008 Rules go into effect.

Daventry
Nov. 26, 2007, 06:28 PM
Janet,
You can get sponsors and not be a pro...I've been riding a 1 1/2 years. They are local not national sposors.

If you are riding in the Amateur divisions, if you accept ANY Sponsorship, you are considered a Professional. It does not matter if it's your local Tack Store around the corner or your friend's blanket sewing business or a National Sponsor like State Line Tack, Absorbine or Beval or whatever. Sponsorship is sponsorship is sponsorship.

Regardless of sponsorship, I think it will be tough to find sponsorship if you've only been riding for a year and a half. Most people don't even think about gaining sponsorship until they are at a high level of competition. As well, most businesses are not willing to provide sponsorship unless the rider is at an acceptable level in which their products or services will be easily recognized and noticed!

CatOnLap
Nov. 26, 2007, 06:36 PM
Well Frosted, I'll happily join you in strawberries and whipped cream, rather than sour grapes, but your question and these statements did sound like whining to me:

In the end, trainer gets Champion for year end awards in the Training level class and other riders get bumped because they actually ride Training level.

Is this common practice???

The trainer didn't "bump" anyone, they won the championship because the others weren't as good!!! (Let me add three exclamation points to your 3 question marks.)

But please, accept my heartfelt apologies for misinterpreting you and save some of that whipped cream.

Equibrit
Nov. 26, 2007, 07:47 PM
Sounds like the training level horse is not the only GREEN:D individual!

tempichange
Nov. 26, 2007, 08:01 PM
Trainers show at that level for different reasons, and who cares it's their business.

dressagediosa
Nov. 26, 2007, 08:39 PM
If the student was also showing the horse at Intro level at the show, the Trainer could not show it any higher than Training Level - a horse can only be shown at two consecutive levels per show.

onetempies
Nov. 26, 2007, 11:45 PM
And most times, if the horse shows at intro, it can't be shown anything higher. But seriously, who cares what trainers do with their students horses. Most of the time it's the student/owner who has to pay the way of the trainer to show the horse. Many times students have problems with horses inside that white box that they don't experience at home or in warm-up. Horses are smart that way, in that they know their rider won't ride them 100% or remprimand them like they would elsewhere. ;) Sometimes the student wants to see how the horse can REALLY go in that white box and sometimes the trainer wants to get student's horse qualified for Regionals or other championships.

Is it common for trainer's to do this? Sure... & who really cares in the end. I've had my trainer show my own horses at one time or another. I may even have her show my young gelding to get him in the ring a few times before I attempt to. :yes:

beeblebrox
Nov. 27, 2007, 01:39 AM
Sometimes clients request the training take the horse around the first day, even on well schooled horses. If it gives the client the confidence I am not sure why that would bother you?

sometimes the trainers want to help work any kinks out and will ride the horse. I doubt this fourth level trainer you are speaking about does it t be seen or for ribbons.

lorilu
Nov. 27, 2007, 09:57 AM
Gosh, I am suprised at the responses. Remember the flap about trainers "warming up" a student's horse before a test? THAT was roundly panned...... but this is OK??

BTW, I also think its NBD. And NYB.
L

horsekpr
Nov. 27, 2007, 09:58 AM
About a week ago ,i was asked to ride a friends new horse training level,the night before the show. I am a professional rider ,and had ridden the horse a couple of times that week with our trainer who was unable to attend the show. The original idea was that i warm the horse up for her at the show if he seemed high,but the night before the show,my friend had a lesson ,and realized she wasn't ready to compete him . She had only bought him 3 week prior and had maybe a half a dozen rides on him . he is a lovely second level horse ,but she is a training level rider ,and bought him to learn on ,and compete. Rather than scratch the horse and lose all the money,we all felt it would be good to take him ,and see how he behaved . He was great ,won his classes ,and now she will have confidence when it is her turn to go out there. This was the last show of the year,so points really won't matter to anyone. Sure,i could have shown the horse at a higher level ,but he was entered training,and this was a last minute thing.

SillyHorse
Nov. 27, 2007, 10:09 AM
Gosh, I am suprised at the responses. Remember the flap about trainers "warming up" a student's horse before a test? THAT was roundly panned...... but this is OK??

BTW, I also think its NBD. And NYB.
L
Amen.

MyReality
Nov. 27, 2007, 11:27 AM
I'm one of those who don't believe in trainers showing client's horse, or warming him up at shows. There are obviously acceptable exceptions to this rule. Long time ago I had a trainer refused to get on my green pony at his first show. I thank her forever for that. The courage I found then, I carried with me forever. But this is one thing that people will never agree, as trainers showing and warming up clients' horses is widely practiced in dressage. (in another thread about the GP horse that rears... here is a grand example of the true, errhhh, timid, nature of dressage folks. People are allowed to be afraid to ride their perfectly sane horse!) Speaking for myself, I jsut don't want to be that middle aged woman who can't ride her own horse, or too chicken to even give it an honest try.

beeblebrox
Nov. 27, 2007, 12:42 PM
"MyReality

I'm one of those who don't believe in trainers showing client's horse, or warming him up at shows. There are obviously acceptable exceptions to this rule. Long time ago I had a trainer refused to get on my green pony at his first show. I thank her forever for that. Speaking for myself, I just don't want to be that middle aged woman who can't ride her own horse, or too chicken to even give it an honest try."

Riders enter training programs for a lot of reasons, if yours is to prove that in middle age you will bully through fear and danger by riding a green pony your afraid of props to you and a sign of the cross for good measure. BUT DO NOT give people a hard time who DO want and pay for that help and also work hard. Not everyone wants that anxiety at a show! Calling people a chicken for having a professional ride is poor and speaks volumes my friend!

It is not a sin against man kind to have a professional show your horse at the same show a adult or junior rides in. More often than not it is sour grapes for others but that adult or junior still must get on that horse and perform in front of a judge who could care less who rode it a hour ago.

CatOnLap
Nov. 27, 2007, 01:04 PM
well, whether one "believes" it or not, its allowed at most competitions.

For most of us NON pros, riding has got to be fun, otherwise why do it? If it scares you to ride your own horse at a show, and it gives you confidence to see your trainer ride it, so then you can get on and have an enjoyable instead of terrifying ride, what is wrong with that?
Where does one draw the line for riding one's own horse? Most people ride horses that they didn't start themselves. Maybe you shouldn't be allowed to show unless you bred, witnessed the birth, haltered, started and trained your own horse? Hoohaw, that would thin the ranks!

Equibrit
Nov. 27, 2007, 02:20 PM
There was a fire in a high rise in Texas, a pro footballer shot to death in Fla, Middle East peace talks in Annapolis, who the hell cares who rides/the damned horse?

Mozart
Nov. 27, 2007, 02:44 PM
Gosh, I am suprised at the responses. Remember the flap about trainers "warming up" a student's horse before a test? THAT was roundly panned...... but this is OK??

BTW, I also think its NBD. And NYB.
L

To my mind there is a difference between a trainer warming up the horse and then handing over the reins to the student to ride the test and having both the the owner and the trainer ride the horse in the same show at either the same level or one apart.

But I'm not going to lose any sleep over it either :cool:

atr
Nov. 27, 2007, 03:38 PM
I have to say, bearing in mind that my trainer's mission is to turn Mr. Sleepy into Mr. Ball Of Fire, getting on my horse after she has ridden him, like in my lesson last night, while inspiring, isn't exactly for the faint of heart!

MyReality
Nov. 27, 2007, 03:48 PM
I don't bully through fear. I have fear like anyone else. But through preparation, I learn to handle my fear and give my horse confidence. If my horse spooks (and he does like any horse), I have some tools on my belt how to deal with them, as it is part of the preparation I talked about. My pony was green... but he is sane enough, and more importantly we had been working on the preparation... there is absolutely no reason to believe the worse. A horse who gets a 70 with a trainer, you bet he could at least get a 55 from a rider who had been practicing. To me, that 55 is more educational than the 70. A trainer should be able to evaluate, according to her experience and observing the preparation, like my old trainer, how a horse performs. A horse that gets 70 with a trainer does not need to be shown by a trainer... the mark proofs nothing, except that the trainer was off in her judgement. The likelihood is that the horse has been unpredictable/inconsistent, I'll buy that.

We are not talking about jumping a 6 foot oxer, we are asking basic submission, simply transitions, three basic gaits at training level. Use the test for what it is for: validate the preparation and partnership between you and your horse. IMO, it's worth fighting for.

I think many dressage people, falls into the trap they need to be perfect. In my experience, it is often one's biggest enemy.

I just want to clarify what I mean. I am not here to change people's minds.

rabicon
Nov. 27, 2007, 03:53 PM
There was a fire in a high rise in Texas, a pro footballer shot to death in Fla, Middle East peace talks in Annapolis, who the hell cares who rides/the damned horse?


I LOVE IT EQUIBRIT!!!

Who cares!! The horse is training level so she can ride it if she wants. Heck she can get on thats intro level and ride there if she wants. Its different than a trainer warming the horse up because the rider can't control the horse. Maybe she wanted to ride the horse and if not and they paid her to then oh well its there money and her gain.

onetempies
Nov. 27, 2007, 04:44 PM
Hmmm I actually find myself agreeing with Equibrit. :lol:

I'm amazed at how many riders are pre-occupied with what other riders do at shows. Which, BTW, I'm also one who doesn't care what trainers do with the students horse in warm-up. Shows are too expensive for me to worry about and watch what others do. I'm there for one reason and that is for myself and my own horse and meeting my own goals. Of course, my train of thought only changed to this AFTER I lost my mare that I worked my tail off with for about 10 years. So that is why it really irks me when others post and whine about their fellow competitors are doing or what color ribbon they get.

petitefilly
Nov. 27, 2007, 07:05 PM
Trainers show at that level for different reasons, and who cares it's their business.

My take on it too. :( But! You have to realize the trainers who are riding at training level are mostly riding __for the horse__. The horse needs mileage, and the rider is uncertain to what they can expect. Trainer helps both in this way.

Touchstone Farm
Nov. 27, 2007, 11:56 PM
To my mind there is a difference between a trainer warming up the horse and then handing over the reins to the student to ride the test and having both the the owner and the trainer ride the horse in the same show at either the same level or one apart.

But I'm not going to lose any sleep over it either :cool:

I agree with you Mozart about the difference between the two, and like you, I'm not going to lose sleep over it either! (I also wonder why those who are having their horses shown by their trainers to increase their or their horse's confidence, don't ride hors concoeurs -- and I mean that for both the trainer and the rider. (Probably misspelled HC, but too lazy to check!)

Gracie
Nov. 28, 2007, 02:09 PM
The rider should show the horse at the horse's ability/training, regardless if the rider is a trainer or not.

Spectrum
Nov. 28, 2007, 02:25 PM
A horse that gets 70 with a trainer does not need to be shown by a trainer... the mark proofs nothing, except that the trainer was off in her judgement. The likelihood is that the horse has been unpredictable/inconsistent, I'll buy that.



I don't agree at all that if a horse gets a 70 it doesn't need to be shown by a trainer. I've seen many horses that will pull off a really high score with a professional rider that are actually quite difficult for amateurs to "put together." And I've seen some that on one day will score 70 with the trainer, and on another day will send the trainer flying through the air.

I think it is perfectly reasonable for a trainer to show a horse for a client, especially if, as in this case (if I'm understanding correctly) the rider is showing intro and the trainer is showing training level. It's nice to have a trainer show a horse at a higher level before the owner. Sometimes the owner has never shown that level, and sometimes they just want to enjoy watching their horse's progress.

In any case, I think it's ridiculous to harp on a trainer for showing a horse. I see it all the time at shows, and I can't think of a single case where I've thought to myself, "That trainer really shouldn't be showing that horse for that owner."

Spectrum.

twnkltoz
Nov. 28, 2007, 02:38 PM
Hmmm I actually find myself agreeing with Equibrit. :lol:

I'm amazed at how many riders are pre-occupied with what other riders do at shows. Which, BTW, I'm also one who doesn't care what trainers do with the students horse in warm-up. Shows are too expensive for me to worry about and watch what others do. I'm there for one reason and that is for myself and my own horse and meeting my own goals. Of course, my train of thought only changed to this AFTER I lost my mare that I worked my tail off with for about 10 years. So that is why it really irks me when others post and whine about their fellow competitors are doing or what color ribbon they get.

I'm right there with you on this. I have no idea what other people are doing unless they're running me down.

audgesmom
Nov. 28, 2007, 08:58 PM
Here is another take on this whole question....

Perhaps not every TRAINER in the ring is created equal:

I am a "trainer" because I take money to teach basic up down up down lessons to a hand full of people....to help pay my horses' way in the world....these are students who will NEVER do more than tool around the ring looking at the flowers, but I take their money just the same. In this state, one must hold a professional license to teach...even the glorified summer camp type instructor teaching the basics must hold that license.

I myself basically came back to riding as an adult 10 years ago...by shear luck I have fallen into GREAT capeable hands and have learned a vast amount in that short time. My pony is a difficult haffie who, of course I would love to conquer the world on, but, in reality will probably top out at 2nd! I have brought him along myself, while working full time and being a single parent of a VERY talented rider, who sucks ALL the extra show and lesson money!!!! He has NO show mileage, and as you all know, is prone to bolting......I myself am NOT an advanced dressage rider....I can school some upper level movements wthout peeing my pants, but I usually get in my own way without my ever patient trainer standing in the middle of my 20 meter circle!

I am a TEACHER by nature and have taught many things in my life: hairdressing, preschool and now the basics of riding to name a few. I am passionate about horses and riding and love to help others learn to be SAFE around horses. I charge nearly nothing, but I am a trainer according to the USDF.

This season will be my very first competing ever...on my fat haffie...AT TRAINING LEVEL...he has NO mileage, I have NO mileage, he bolts, but I am a "trainer" so will enter only open classes....others in those classes will be much more "trainer-ly" than I ...but I will be there too because those are the rules....now that I have shared the back story, is this fair? Maybe, maybe not...but I am not going to loose sleep...at the end of the day, the scores are against an ideal not the others in the class..I am beyond the color of the ribbons....I would love to break 60% on my unlikely dressage mount..and perhaps earn the usdf achievement certificate before I die.....I am sure all of those in the open classes I will enter will be MUCH more accomplished than I ....infact most of the ammy classes will have more advanced competitiors/riders than I too...but I would not trade the joy I get from helping other's learn safely for all the blue ribbons in the world...

ESG
Nov. 28, 2007, 10:32 PM
NO ONE should EVER apologize for the level they show. This includes trainers. Who the fruitbat do you think you are, OP, to whine about what level someone else's horse is or isn't showing? :eek:

You say you get "sponsorship". That, according to USEF rules, makes you a pro. Sounds a hell of a lot like sour grapes, that another trainer has the temerity to show a horse at TL against you.

Grow effing up. :rolleyes:

onetempies
Nov. 29, 2007, 12:17 AM
I don't agree at all that if a horse gets a 70 it doesn't need to be shown by a trainer. I've seen many horses that will pull off a really high score with a professional rider that are actually quite difficult for amateurs to "put together." And I've seen some that on one day will score 70 with the trainer, and on another day will send the trainer flying through the air.
...


Hey! Do you know Sunshine?! :lol: Sure, we've gotten scores as high as 73% at TL and high 60s in 1st BUT! We've also received low 50s which resulted from her doing her bucking bronc impression during canter in our tests. :eek: I stayed on but my back has taken a beating from this mare. This is also a mare that you need to stay out of her mouth, so don't dare try to grab at her mouth during these "naughty moments".

The thing is, who are we to judge somebody else's situation if you do not know them personally? You don't follow that horse day to day at home AND at every single show that they attend. You simply CAN'T judge somebody without fully knowing their background. There's just too many variables involved. :no:

Also, shows generally have separate divisions (open, Jr/YR, & AA) so anybody can show whatever level they wish. Our local GMO also has the same breakdown for year-end awards. So if people are so worried about the color of year-end ribbon you're getting at lower levels, then go to your local GMO and propose that they create separate divisions for the lower levels. Contact other members and see if they'd be interested in this proposal. But I also agree with others who have mentioned that the above mentioned sponsorship is more of an issue as far as rider status goes. :yes:

Oh & twnkltoz.... I agree with ya! But you need to also include riders who intentionally cut you off or get ya with their whip. :rolleyes: