Pinto breeders, need help again!

[JB]

:D I'm in search of the following:

Tobiano parent with "normal" face markings, ie star, stripe, snip, etc, crossed with the same type of parent, producing an Overo - frame, sabino, splash, doesn't matter. I'm not interested in the Tovero offspring, just Overo.

Got any? :)

I'm trying to "prove" that the face white on an otherwise obviously Tobiano-marked horse is from Sabino.

[Overo]

Why does "regular" face or leg white have to be sabino?

In answer to your question, I've never seen or heard of it happening unless there is some form of overo hiding in the background and tobiano is really tovero. Hindsight usually identifies the tovero characteristics pretty quickly.

[JB]

That's my point - a horse that is ONLY Tobiano will have a solid head. If there is white on the head, it's from some form of Overo, making the horse a Tovero in reality. I didn't mention leg white because almost all Tobis have 4 whites, occasionally 3 but mostly 4. This would hide any Sabino white there.

[Overo]

You've misunderstood me. Regular face white - star, stripe, blaze does not constitute any form of overo.

Most tobianos have "regular" face white. For that matter, most horses have some form of regular face white. It's not frame, splash, sabino or rabicano or any other name for "colour" somebody comes up with. It's just face white.

[Silly Mommy]

My head:eek::eek::lol::eek::eek:.

This makes me dizzy - JB, you think too much!!!

[JB]

You've misunderstood me. Regular face white - star, stripe, blaze does not constitute any form of overo.
Yes, it does - Sabino. Sabino is a form of Overo, at least how it's currently classified. Most people up on color genetics consider ALL face white to be a form of Overo.

Most tobianos have "regular" face white.
If they are ONLY Tobi, they have no face white. If they have face white, they also have some form of Overo.

For that matter, most horses have some form of regular face white.
Not really. There are more horse with solid heads than not, in any given population (Paints not withstanding ;))

My head:eek::eek::lol::eek::eek:.
This makes me dizzy - JB, you think too much!!!

LOL! Should I spin you the other way to un-dizzy you? :D

[Dazednconfused]

Sabino is not overo...totally different genes. No idea why people continue to group them together.

[Silly Mommy]

Splain please:

http://wolfdenfarm.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/splface.jpg.w300h413.jpg

http://members.tripod.com/sabrawolf_1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/splbutt.jpg.w300h352.jpg

http://members.tripod.com/sabrawolf_1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/pandagvba.jpg.w560h414.jpg

[Blue Moon]

Splain please:

The blaze on the foal is much too big to be just ordinary markings. It definitely looks sabino. The one labeled Panda is absolutely a tobiano/sabino, and could be frame as well -- has that one been tested for anything?

[Blue Moon]

No idea why people continue to group them together.

Probably just a matter of old terminology sticking around. It doesn't exactly help that both the Paint and Pinto registries still put sabino, splash, and frame all together into one category - "Overo". They need to get with the times, but nobody really thinks it will happen any time soon. Heck, now we know there's definitely more than one kind of sabino gene - who knows what else is waiting to be discovered. You'd have to really be paying attention to keep up with the latest news, and in all honesty, most people don't really care that much.

[JB]

As I said, Sabino is still classified as one of the Overo patterns. Whether that is technically true doesn't matter to me for this purpose :)

Silly Mommy's beautiful little girl is the type I'm looking at as one parent - Tobiano + Sabino. Sympatico is the same -Tobi +Sabino. He also seems to have something going on that causes the regular production of interesting facial markings, beyond a normal star/strip/snip. He often throws fact white that goes off center, often with markings that look like the paint brush slipped in the way down, much like my toothbrush slips sometimes and smears toothpaste across my cheek :rolleyes:

[platinm]

There are more horse with solid heads than not, in any given population (Paints not withstanding ;))






REALLY? I would never have thought that. Out of 18 horses in this barn right now, 17 have some face white, and only two are related. (The single non-white face is the mother of a small-star face) And just for fun, I did the starting order from the harrisburg GP: 23 of 33 have some face white. And no more than three are related (2 heartbreakers, 3 darcos, and 2 jus de pommes)

[eqsiu]

Splain please:



It's thought by some that ALL markings are caused by a Sabino complex gene. It's a complex because even though they have identified one gene, not all classic sabinos have it. I think it's usually certain breeds that lack that one but still have sabino characteristics?

"Overo" to me means frame overo, the other patterns generally lumped in should not be called overo.

I think it is rare to find Frame without Sabino as well, since frame overos should have dark legs, while most paints do not.

[Silly Mommy]

You mean -

Like my Overo filly that has two solid legs, and two stockings?

http://http://www.wolfdenfarm.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/tundragvba.jpg (http://www.wolfdenfarm.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/tundragvba.jpg)

and her face is interesting as well-

http://http://www.wolfdenfarm.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/tundgvba.jpg (http://www.wolfdenfarm.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/tundgvba.jpg)

[Silly Mommy]

OK, I am getting less dizzy -

has that one been tested for anything?


Nope - she is by State of the Art, out of a 3/4 TB. 1/4 DWB mare - who has strong Sabino on the TB side.

The Overo filly has an Overo mom, and a TB dad (who has strong Sabino on his dad's part). The Overo mom was sired by an outcrop QH however, and she displays strong robanico traits as well.

You guys dizzy yet?

I wouldn't consider myself a pinto breeder, I just went through a "spotted baby" phase. ;)

[eqsiu]

You mean -

Like my Overo filly that has two solid legs, and two stockings?

http://http://www.wolfdenfarm.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/tundragvba.jpg (http://www.wolfdenfarm.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/tundragvba.jpg)

and her face is interesting as well-

http://http://www.wolfdenfarm.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/tundgvba.jpg

Theoretically...though I think large white on the face is considered a characteristice of frame as well. Who knows for sure, nothing has been found to "prove" the relationship.

Fun fact, horses are statistically more likely to have white on hind legs, and white is also more common on the *IIRC* left side. Based on pure statistics, though. Chestnuts have lots of white more often than bays which have white more often than blacks.

[titan]

So can someone tell me what this face marking says about my Freedom Z colt?
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u227/titan999/LouieApril9.jpg

[titan]

And what about my blue eyed Sympatico filly? What genes is he supposed to have?
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u227/titan999/lolaright.jpg

[Guin]

MUST....HAVE.....SPOTTED.....PONY!!!! :D

What beautiful equines you all have!

[belambi]

yes.. i agree. pure tobiano has solid face .and also..the leg markings tend to be mucg straighter, less pointy.
Here is my new toby foal
http://www.vimeo.com/375583

[JB]

Chestnuts have lots of white more often than bays which have white more often than blacks.
It's becoming more widely thought that E (black) has a white-inhibiting effect on the sabino/splash/frame patterns, as well as Appy patterns.

And what about my blue eyed Sympatico filly? What genes is he supposed to have?
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u227/titan999/lolaright.jpg
Sempatico is homozygous Tobiano, plus he is Sabino. Your filly is Tobi + Sabino as well :) And, from the looks of her with the "paw prints", and that Mom looks to be Tobi also, I'd wager a lot of $$ the filly is homozygous Tobiano as well :D

[Black Forest]

yes.. i agree. pure tobiano has solid face .

yes, until you see all the tobianos who are by / out of 2 parents with "regular" head-white ie a star or a stripe or a normal blaze - and when homozygous end up with really funky head white - seen it lots and lots of time that homozygous tobianos have head white that does not fit in with their parents or their heterozygous siblings!

[Delkredere]

So the stallion Maxamillion would be a true tobiano? http://www.goldenventurefarm.com/Maxamillion.html

[JB]

yes, until you see all the tobianos who are by / out of 2 parents with "regular" head-white ie a star or a stripe or a normal blaze - and when homozygous end up with really funky head white - seen it lots and lots of time that homozygous tobianos have head white that does not fit in with their parents or their heterozygous siblings!
I am of the opinion that the parents with the "regular" face white are Tobo + Sabino, and the Sabino compounds in the foal, making for more face white. Sabino itself can cause some really wild face white - look at Sempatico who is NOT Frame or Splash. Even when bred to non-pinto mares, he regularly products funky face white.

So the stallion Maxamillion would be a true tobiano? http://www.goldenventurefarm.com/Maxamillion.html
Given that I think Max is ASB (right?) x WB, and that Frame and Splash don't exist, and that he has a solid head, then yes, he's Tobi only.

[Blue Moon]

Actually, Frame and Splash most definitely do exist in the Saddlebred. But Max has a solid head and therefore must be tobiano-only. If he's getting any foals with lots of face white, it would be coming from the dams.

[JB]

Actually, Frame and Splash most definitely do exist in the Saddlebred.
Interesting, I have never seen one! Do you have any pictures of either of those?

But Max has a solid head and therefore must be tobiano-only.
Since it's not a requirement that Frame or Splash have to show themselves at all, this isn't necessarily true.

If he's getting any foals with lots of face white, it would be coming from the dams.
See above :)

I think Max is Tobi-only since the lines between the white and color are smooth. The existence of Frame usually makes jagged edges even if the pattern still says Tobi. And the existence of Splash would nearly always have given him blue eyes, or at least one.

Hmmm, I do see one line that looks a bit jaggedy, left side, down his barrel. This would probably make me want to see a LWO test if I were breeding a mare who was known to be positive herself.

[belambi]

Nor have I ever seen a frame saddlebred. I have had a sabino saddlebred, long white socks and two blue eyes one, he was an awesome 3 day eventing horse,so clever and easy!

[ljshorses]

Oh I want to play!!! I have a large pony with an unmarked reg Paint mom (has weird blaze and high whites on hind legs only) and dad is a Welsh/Paint cross pony(typical tobiano markings I think, will have to go back and check though). I got this (see below). Is she an overo or a tovero?

[JB]

Oh I want to play!!!
Wrong game! :p :)

I have a large pony with an unmarked reg Paint mom (has weird blaze and high whites on hind legs only) and dad is a Welsh/Paint cross pony(typical tobiano markings I think, will have to go back and check though). I got this (see below). Is she an overo or a tovero?
She is DARLING!!! She is most definitely Tovero - Tobiano and very likely Frame. See all the jagged edges on her spots? Overo, most likely Frame. See alllll that white on her face? Frame, with the slightest chance Splash is in the picture but probably not. She may also be Sabino.

If you ever decided to breed her, you need to either test her for LWO just to verify she's positive (I'd lay $$ on it), and if she is, or if you don't test, then choose a stallion who is known to be negative. To not take those precautions gives you a 25% chance of producing a Lethal White foal and you lose him.

[JB]

Ok folks, seriously - NOBODY has a picture of a Sabino or Frame or Splash resulting from a "Tobiano" with face white?

[belambi]

Sorry JB..can you explain the above post?..I am a bit confused?

Do you mean a hetro toby that has thrown sabino or spalsh or overo rather than toby?

[ljshorses]

Ok folks, seriously - NOBODY has a picture of a Sabino or Frame or Splash resulting from a "Tobiano" with face white?

Thanks for the comments on my girl, she is only 3 and going well.

Do you mean above: does anyone have a sabino,splash or frame from 1 tobiano parent and 1 non pinto colored horse? Confused...I may have something (well he's sold but got pics), its a half sibling to the pony above out of the same Paint bred unmarked mare and by an Arabian and he has the high white, bald face and big belly spot...is that what you want? I also have a filly born this year by a Dutch stallion out of a TB mare with high white, blaze and big belly spot.

[JB]

The original quest was for a splash/sabino/frame product of 2 "Tobiano" parents with face white. However, at this point I'd settle for that same produce out of 1 "Tobiano" parent with face white :) So yes, the parents would have to be hetero Tobi.

So, ljs, I'd love to see pictures of the parents and that foal, if you have them :)

[Erin Pittman]

How about some of Spotlight's foals? He's homozygous tobiano (even his owner, Red Fox Farm, now has him listed as Overo, too):

http://www.redfoxfarm.com/spotfoals.html - Scroll down to:
"A Saving Grace" - out of a solid bay mare
"Light Up The Night" - out of a TB mare (don't see a photo of the mare, so I can't tell if she's solid or sabino, frame or what)
"RFF Caution Light" - looks Splash + tobiano to me (mare in the background looks solid bay)

Sire of all of the above: http://www.redfoxfarm.com/spotinfo.html - he doesn't have "normal" face white, but it's not excessive either.

[JB]

Nope, homozygous won't work for what I'm looking for, as that means that Tobi will also be passed :)

[ljshorses]

Okay here ya go. The bay mare below is a registered Paint mare by a tobiano and out of a tobiano. She is the dam to the large pony and the light bay also posted below. The colt below is by a plain bay Arabian. It is hard to see his belly spot but it is quite large.

[ljshorses]

Here are pics of the 2 sires. The pinto pony is the sire of my pinto pony and the bay is the Arabian sire of the bay in the last post.

[belambi]

I do know that Spotlight is olws neg..so must be sabino or splash happening there.. He is by far my favourite APHA stallion in the US. He has a stunning son in NZ, who is 7/8 tb and TT.

[JB]

ljs - ok, let me make sure I have this straight. You posted 4 pictures, then 2 pictures. The 2 pictures are sires.

The pinto sire pictured sired the horse in the first 2 of the 4 pictures, the bay mare with the white running up her LH, and her dam was also a Tobi - do you know the status of the dam's face white? That mare is also the dam of the bay colt in the second 2 of the 4 pictures - correct? I think that bay mare is exactly what I'm looking for :D Do you mind if I copy their pictures over to the other board where we're having this discussion?

[JB]

I do know that Spotlight is olws neg..so must be sabino or splash happening there..
I think it's probably Sabino, as I don't think I've ever seen a foal who looked Splash, and his face just doesn't say Splash to me.

He is by far my favourite APHA stallion in the US. He has a stunning son in NZ, who is 7/8 tb and TT.

I agree, I've been eyeing him for quite a while :)

[ljshorses]

ljs - ok, let me make sure I have this straight. You posted 4 pictures, then 2 pictures. The 2 pictures are sires.

The pinto sire pictured sired the horse in the first 2 of the 4 pictures, the bay mare with the white running up her LH, and her dam was also a Tobi - do you know the status of the dam's face white? That mare is also the dam of the bay colt in the second 2 of the 4 pictures - correct? I think that bay mare is exactly what I'm looking for :D Do you mind if I copy their pictures over to the other board where we're having this discussion?

Oops, sorry I didn't make it very clear I am a bit tired today. Okay, first I posted with pics of my pony (3 pics two were her under saddle, one of her head).

Then I posted 4 pics...the first 2 were of her dam(pony's dam) and the 2nd 2 were another colt she had by an Arabian sire. The dam is the one with the white running up her leg and with my daughter holding her with a ribbon attached.

Lastly I posted 2 pics. These were the 2 stallions bred to the mare with the white running up her hind legs. The pinto sire is the pony sire and the bay is an Arabian that sired her other colt.

You can use these pics however they can help...hope I made it clear, I really should get a cup of coffee.

[belambi]

I think it's probably Sabino, as I don't think I've ever seen a foal who looked Splash, and his face just doesn't say Splash to me.



I agree, I've been eyeing him for quite a while :)


Spotlight..or the kiwi one?

[Erin Pittman]

I think it's probably Sabino, as I don't think I've ever seen a foal who looked Splash, and his face just doesn't say Splash to me.


I posted a name of a foal above, but when I looked again it was actually the foal below the name that looked splash to me, rather than the one named ("Caution Light"). It looks to me like "Keylight" could be splash - mainly because the edges of his markings look too smooth to make me think Sabino and that face white/leg white look splash. But, maybe it's just an odd combo of sabino and tobi. Certainly the white is in the wrong place for splash (top instead of bottom half)... http://www.redfoxfarm.com/spotfoals.html

[JB]

Spotlight..or the kiwi one?
Spotlight :)

I posted a name of a foal above, but when I looked again it was actually the foal below the name that looked splash to me, rather than the one named ("Caution Light"). It looks to me like "Keylight" could be splash - mainly because the edges of his markings look too smooth to make me think Sabino and that face white/leg white look splash. But, maybe it's just an odd combo of sabino and tobi. Certainly the white is in the wrong place for splash (top instead of bottom half)... http://www.redfoxfarm.com/spotfoals.html
Keylight is very cool looking indeed - I've loved him for several years now since seeing him on that page. But, he's also Tobi, so doesn't work for what I'm looking for :no:

ljs - lol, thanks, I'll go back and see if I can figure it out.

[JetdecksComet]

I posted a name of a foal above, but when I looked again it was actually the foal below the name that looked splash to me, rather than the one named ("Caution Light"). It looks to me like "Keylight" could be splash - mainly because the edges of his markings look too smooth to make me think Sabino and that face white/leg white look splash. But, maybe it's just an odd combo of sabino and tobi. Certainly the white is in the wrong place for splash (top instead of bottom half)... http://www.redfoxfarm.com/spotfoals.html

Actually, many of the foals on his page have very splash-white type face markings. His own face marking looks splash white to me. They are typically smaller at the top, bigger at the bottom, and tend to "slip" off to the side a lot in a minimal marked splash. Plus, one of his foals has a blue eye... which is only caused by frame and splash. The stallion tested negative for frame, so that leaves splash.

The mare could have contributed frame or splash, but it seems that he was bred to mares with very, very minimal markings. Mostly TBs, which in which frame and splash exist, but are fairly rare.

My money is on Spotlight as a tobiano/sabino/splash. Thanks for sharing this page, as I have never heard of him and am interested in finding a very nice, athletic homozygous tobiano stallion for my mare. :)

[JetdecksComet]

JB... do you have APHA plus? If so, I can share the names of tobiano mares/stallions that have produced overo-only foals. I listed some on the other forum in the "prove it" post.

[Tamlain]

And what about my blue eyed Sympatico filly? What genes is he supposed to have?
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u227/titan999/lolaright.jpg

Is that Momma next to her? Have you tested her to see if she's homozygous?

[titan]

Yes that is momma. She is currently in foal to Pablo. Momma is dutch and has produced both tobi and solid foals from Ferro and Jazz so she is not homozygous. I haven't tested her Sempatico filly, I may at some point but it's not that important to me right now.
I am interested in what Jet said about blue eyes. Lola has one so if it has to be from frame or splash, I wonder which parent it came from? Does anyone know if Sempatico is frame or splash?

[Trails]

I just bought a weanling a couple of weeks ago. The only photos of her were taken when she was 2 months old. I don't know anything about colour genetics so perhaps someone can tell me what I have.

Thanks,

http://www.mysciencesite.com/horses.html

[RiddleMeThis]

I would say Tobi

[pintopiaffe]

Does anyone know if Sempatico is frame or splash?

Tico defnitely has *something* else going on. Not sure what though. I've seen (and had one of) several of his foals with more than just tobi.

[RiddleMeThis]

Yes that is momma. She is currently in foal to Pablo. Momma is dutch and has produced both tobi and solid foals from Ferro and Jazz so she is not homozygous. I haven't tested her Sempatico filly, I may at some point but it's not that important to me right now.
I am interested in what Jet said about blue eyes. Lola has one so if it has to be from frame or splash, I wonder which parent it came from? Does anyone know if Sempatico is frame or splash?

I would guess that Sempatico is Tobi, Sabion, and overo. But that is a complete guess.

[Blue Moon]

Nor have I ever seen a frame saddlebred. I have had a sabino saddlebred, long white socks and two blue eyes one, he was an awesome 3 day eventing horse,so clever and easy!

If he had blue eyes, chances are very good he was splash, not sabino. :) Just curious, do you remember his name, or bloodlines?

I've definitely seen several splash ASBs. They were talked about on some forum or list awhile back, and there were pictures of both heterozygous and homozygous ones. The color appeared to be tracing back to two specific stallions. That's all I remember right now and I don't know where to find any pictures online, but I'll keep an eye out for them. But anyway, believe me, once you see a homozygous splash, you know it cannot be anything else.

There's a stallion named Beau Decision who is a sabino-white, but is also a frame overo. They only realized it when he sired a foal with typical frame overo markings and no white feet. Sure enough he tested positive. He has a website and there are some pictures of his foals there, some of which are clearly frame. http://cedarwindsfarmllc.com/BeauDecision.html

[JB]

I would guess that Sempatico is Tobi, Sabion, and overo.
Tobi and Sabino absolutely, no doubt about it. Which Overo do you refer to though, Frame or Splash? He's not Frame - doesn't exist in his line. Some think Splash, but I don't think so - no blue eyes.

[titan]

My Sempatico filly has one blue eye. I think Liz said this is the first blue eye she has seen from him. Does anyone know if the dutch samber/domino line has splash or frame? Maybe that's where her blue eye came from. Here's momma by domino.
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u227/titan999/Lexus614.jpg

[JetdecksComet]

My Sempatico filly has one blue eye. I think Liz said this is the first blue eye she has seen from him. Does anyone know if the dutch samber/domino line has splash or frame? Maybe that's where her blue eye came from. Here's momma by domino.
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u227/titan999/Lexus614.jpg

I took a look at Sempatico... I definitely see splash in him and in many of his foals. Anytime you see crazy face white like that (very strange looking) it is usually splash.

[JetdecksComet]

Some think Splash, but I don't think so - no blue eyes.

Splash doesn't have to have blue eyes to be present.

http://colormorgans.tripod.com/splashwhite.htm

If you look at the cross on this page:

MARVELOUS INTRIGUE x MARVELOUS PHOPHECY = SHAHAYLEE

You can see two "normal solid" horses that produced a blue-eyed splash foal.

I assume this was likely also the case with AQHA/APHA Colonels Smokin Gun (aka Gunner). His sire & dam were both AQHA, but he is "classic" splashed white. (Although, I admit, I am only assuming here. I have never seen his sire and dam... something for me to research.)

[belambi]

If he had blue eyes, chances are very good he was splash, not sabino. :) Just curious, do you remember his name, or bloodlines?

I've definitely seen several splash ASBs. They were talked about on some forum or list awhile back, and there were pictures of both heterozygous and homozygous ones. The color appeared to be tracing back to two specific stallions. That's all I remember right now and I don't know where to find any pictures online, but I'll keep an eye out for them. But anyway, believe me, once you see a homozygous splash, you know it cannot be anything else.

There's a stallion named Beau Decision who is a sabino-white, but is also a frame overo. They only realized it when he sired a foal with typical frame overo markings and no white feet. Sure enough he tested positive. He has a website and there are some pictures of his foals there, some of which are clearly frame. http://cedarwindsfarmllc.com/BeauDecision.html

He was Vanitys compass rose x knolland park demon. They were imported to Aus quite a few years ago. Here is the only pic i have of us on the computer..if you zoom in can see his eyes
http://i5.tinypic.com/6yk1zjm.jpg

his name was Spiderman

[camohn]

Sabino is not overo...totally different genes. No idea why people continue to group them together.

Because the APHA does it. Anything not tobiano is overo. The same "color" breed registry that says that max white sabinos are "solid breeding stock".

[Painted Wings]

I'd like to know if Sempatico is frame or not. I have a frame filly I'm considering breeding to him some day. Obviously that would be bad if he was frame also.

[belambi]

I would strongly suggest contacting the owner direct.. Because this is an extraordinarily serious rumour to have started on the net with absolutly no basis.
You can contact Liz here
http://www.silverwoodfarm.com/dir.html

[L&L]

we have had quite a few very funky foals with very loud markings......

http://www.umenno.com/img/2005/nenna6.jpg

mare is rabicano stallion tobi

http://www.umenno.com/img/2006/kalamino_2.jpg

http://www.umenno.com/img/2006/kalamino.jpg

same sire mare chestnut one small white star and white sock

http://www.umenno.com/img/2006/b.jpg

http://www.umenno.com/resources/Ladys%20colt/lady2.jpg

chestnut mare with star and socks

http://www.umenno.com/img/2006/bazinno1.jpg

http://www.umenno.com/img/2006/bazinno_ree.jpg

mare rabicanno white star same sire

http://www.umenno.com/resources/penny/penny2.jpg

bay mare no star one white sock

No frame in any of the mares or the stallion lines......

I could add quite a few more..........

not sure this is any help what so ever............

[pintofoal]

I'd like to know if Sempatico is frame or not. I have a frame filly I'm considering breeding to him some day. Obviously that would be bad if he was frame also.

I can assure you he is not frame and if crossed with a frame colored mare would NOT produce lethal white. If someone wanted to breed a frame mare and wanted to be sure, I'd be glad to do the test - it's cheap and easy, but have never really seen a reason to do it since again the frame doesn't exist in his/Warmblood lines.

[Blue Moon]

we have had quite a few very funky foals with very loud markings......

They are way cool, all of them, but especially the 2nd one. Gorgeous! :)

Are these foals all by the same stallion? They are very strongly sabino, and they all have a similar look to them. If they all have the same sire, it seems quite likely they are getting the sabino from him. I'd love to see a picture of him.

[JetdecksComet]

They are way cool, all of them, but especially the 2nd one. Gorgeous! :)

Are these foals all by the same stallion? They are very strongly sabino, and they all have a similar look to them. If they all have the same sire, it seems quite likely they are getting the sabino from him. I'd love to see a picture of him.

Agree... definitely some form of sabino there with the tobiano. And possibly splash white? Who knows... it seems to crop up out of nowhere...

Gorgeous, though!

[sabinolover]

JB is correct, face white is Sabino. Sabino is lumped under overo as the Paint Horse did and still does classify like that.

[L&L]

yes they are all by the same sire. :)

I had always assumed that as he carries the sabino but what is splash? :confused: :) but no idea why he produces so many funky patterned babies. The ordinary tobiano mares are usually always out of mares that have very little white expressed themselves.

sire: http://www.umenno.com/img/2006/_REE6680_umenno.jpg

http://www.umenno.com/img/2006/_REE6524_umenno%20copy.jpg

then he produced these three from the same mare.

http://www.umenno.com/img/2005/menno3.jpg

http://www.umenno.com/img/2006/buen1.jpg (Homozygous)

http://www.umenno.com/img/2007/chelannoz.jpg

Every foal born is yet another complete surprise :)

[grayarabpony]

The last picture of the airborne foal is fantastic. :cool:

[titan]

Yes ,very cool. What is the breeding on the cuties? What discipline are they bred for?

[L&L]

Thanks :) dads show jumping in Switzerland at the mo with a freind but could just as easily have followed a career in dressage, guess we will go down that route at some point and some eventing too. :)

bloodlines, KWPN, Wellington, Nimmerdor, Samber, Enfant De Normandy, all the TB sires in the background Le Faquin,x Pericles x Lucky Boy Man O war etc..... so crosses well to produce eventers out of TB mares. 53% blood.

Dam, Evelien full sister to Sambucco B :)

miss him terribly and am currently handicapped recovering from knee surgery so its going to quite a while before so its gonna be a while before i get a chance to see him. :sadsmile: hence the reason I have a wee bit more time to kill. :lol:

The mommies are all KWPN or other WBs and one TB mare.

[belambi]

You know ..the Umenno foals remind me of just how few chestnut toby sires (of an elite level) are left in the world!!

[mommy peanut]

i don't happen over here very often, but i just wanted to say WOW:eek: Ya'll have some very purrty babies!!:yes: ok back to your regularly scheduled show;)

[L&L]

Thanks they are few and far between for sure :) At least he is adding to the numbers :)

[belambi]

Do you think that he is helping maintain / throwing the chestnuts more because he has the sabino thing happening aswell which seems to react more with chestnut?.. Do you know of many homozygous black mares he has served?.. and have those foals been as loudly marked?

[L&L]

The very loudly marked foals have all been out of mares that are also sabino and or rabicano.

He has served two homozygous black mares one was also rabicano , she is covered in white splash marks under belly, stifle area and under elbows with the white skunk tail hairs, white stockings and star as seen here.

http://www.umenno.com/resources/Bazinno/Bazinno2.jpg

The second an all black mare with white sock only (No white on face) and the filly is a minimal tobiano.

http://www.umenno.com/img/2007/cienna_z.jpg

Two of the chestnut mares owned by different clients were mother and daughter, the dam is also rabicanno as has white hairs throughout her coat but not her daughter. The dam has on two occassions produced very loud foals as shown in the last post. All three foals were chestnut and white.

Oh and this foal also chestnut and white out of a bay mare.

http://www.umenno.com/img/2006/_REE5270_biornna_large.jpg

I would reckon we are at about 50% chestnut tobianos, but would need to tally it up.

A large number of grey mares have also thrown chestnut and white tobis too but no idea their base colour. Not sure that there are any hard and fast rules :sigh:

[belambi]

LOVE the minimal!!! my favourite by far.

[L&L]

Thanks we love her too. :) mom is getting on a bit and this is the first filly she has had so we are holding onto her. She is by Argus (Pion) x Amesthist(Nimmerdor) x Legat (Marco Polo), out of a very good dam line, So has a lovely pedigree to match her looks. Her dam is not the purdiest of mares but she stamps lovely stock.

Can you explain what others mean by splash?

[scottishgirl]

Just wanted to say that I think you have gorgeous horses, Ive been watching your website for a couple of years now. There's not that many places in this country that have droolworthy horses as well as a good internet presence. I like how you update it with pictures of your new babies so quickly.

So can I have one now :D :D

[L&L]

Thanks scottishgirl :):)

Ok few more.

Sabino foal out of tobiano mare and tobiano sire.

http://www.umenno.com/img/2005/tinna3.jpg
http://www.umenno.com/img/2005/tina1.jpg

and sabino foal out of solid sabino mare by tobiano sire

http://www.umenno.com/img/2006/_REE5650_bavarnno.jpg