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dalpal
Nov. 6, 2007, 11:00 PM
For all who get RFD...Chris Cox is starting a 4 part series working with a soured Grand Prix Dressage horse who has started rearing and bucking going from the warm up arena to the competition arena. (and no, Chris Cox isn't a dressage basher ;))

Should be interesting. I really enjoy watching Chris Cox's show..I think he is one of the best "cowboy" types.

This week he is starting with ground work.

Just an FYI if anyone is interested in watching.

FancyFree
Nov. 6, 2007, 11:10 PM
I'm looking forward to watching this. I'm glad to see more dressage things on. I watched Clinton Anderson interview Ali Brock the other day. She rode some gorgeous horses, so gorgeous that Clinton didn't bother me as much as usual. ;)

europferde
Nov. 7, 2007, 10:23 AM
So when does this start??



www.europferde.com

STF
Nov. 7, 2007, 10:36 AM
No thanks! *rolling eyes*

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Nov. 7, 2007, 11:23 AM
I suspect the GP horse simply isn't getting enough peeps. Easy fix!

Melissa.Van Doren
Nov. 7, 2007, 11:46 AM
I saw Part One last night. Every time I see a trainer twirl a lead rope, step in and disengage the hindquarters on a stock-type, I always wish I could see them work with a big-a@@ warmblood... voila!

The horse is large marge in charge and knows it and poor Chris earned his pennies getting towed around in the sand now and then. The progress was slower than what is usually achieved with a less phlegmatic breed, but progress was made. But definitely not the usual "okay... puff, puff, puff... I give up... I'll follow you anywhere" submission you see on most of these programs.

At the end of the session, he said the cameras will be rolling for ALL of the work with the horse, so it will be a real-time look at the process. It'll be really interesting to see if he gets on. This horse (as seen in the introduction) is pretty unhappy about going down centerline.

TKR
Nov. 7, 2007, 11:50 AM
I saw some of the Alli Brock work, but didn't like the way her horse went -- I thought he looked very restrained until he did some extended trot. His regular trot and canter looked very cramped without any freedom of movement or expression. Lovely horse, (the dark bay), but ... I don't know, not very happy -- any other thoughts?
PennyG

eurythmic
Nov. 7, 2007, 11:53 AM
The horse could be in pain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5TdgH5XNTk

MassageLady
Nov. 7, 2007, 03:18 PM
You're correct, I find it all the time! 90% of the time 'attitude problems' are simply pain! Fix the problem, the attitude will correct itself.:yes: I rehab and massage horses, and I cannot tell you how many times I've found horses sore/out of alignment with people riding them that way! I hope Chris looks at that possibility first!

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Nov. 7, 2007, 04:03 PM
I ditto this. It's amazing that it turned out to be not so much, "My horse is crooked" but which came first - my crookedness, or his?

MassageLady
Nov. 7, 2007, 04:08 PM
ABSOLUTELY!:yes: Many times I worked on horses several times, just to find that they are not getting better:no:, then I look at the client, and find they are not 'standing square':lol:. That's when I figure it's time to fix them instead!:lol:

dalpal
Nov. 7, 2007, 04:52 PM
Pain is absolutely a possibility....BUT, I have known horses with pure attitude...and we're talking horses who are chiro, massaged, good farrier, etc....sometimes the lack of forwardness is between the ears.

I love Chris Cox's show...I think he does a great job of explaining why he does what he does.

There are those horses out there who do need someone like him to get them going again.

dalpal
Nov. 7, 2007, 04:55 PM
;)Euro...go to www.rfdtv.com and look over the guide. The first show aired this week, but they replay it several times.

STF...no need to roll eyes, I merely posted as some folks may have an interest...not imperative that anyone share their disgust..LOL! ;)

I'm certainly no fan of Parelli, but I think Chris has some things to offer, especially if one gets in a situation with a balky/stubborn horse.

Sounds like everyone who has watched the show/posted...liked it as well.

MassageLady
Nov. 8, 2007, 12:48 AM
BUT, I have known horses with pure attitude...and we're talking horses who are chiro, massaged, good farrier, etc....sometimes the lack of forwardness is between the ears
Yes, that's why I said '90% of the time':D And that is why I will tell the trainer if I don't find any problems! Which is rare (about 10% of the time:lol:)

FancyFree
Nov. 8, 2007, 03:07 PM
I saw Part One last night. Every time I see a trainer twirl a lead rope, step in and disengage the hindquarters on a stock-type, I always wish I could see them work with a big-a@@ warmblood... voila!

The horse is large marge in charge and knows it and poor Chris earned his pennies getting towed around in the sand now and then. The progress was slower than what is usually achieved with a less phlegmatic breed, but progress was made. But definitely not the usual "okay... puff, puff, puff... I give up... I'll follow you anywhere" submission you see on most of these programs.

At the end of the session, he said the cameras will be rolling for ALL of the work with the horse, so it will be a real-time look at the process. It'll be really interesting to see if he gets on. This horse (as seen in the introduction) is pretty unhappy about going down centerline.

Oh yes, me too! My barn friend lent me a set of her Clinton Anderson dvds. My three year old is big warmblood and she can be a bit of a bully. None of the horses that Clinton worked with seemed all that challenging. As you say, it was a little resistance and then meek and mild. That definitely is not the experience I was having with my horse. So yes it is very interesting to see one of these guys work with a big warmblood. This horse that Chris Cox is working with is 17+ hands.

I watched the first episode. I admit I really did not get the purpose of it. Was he trying to establish dominance? I don't see the point of making him go back and forth on a lead rope. I suppose he's trying to establish a fear and respect for him? That horse was terrified. He was visibly shaking. But he has been a big bully and probably begining to become dangerous. I'm not condemning or criticizing, just not sure of what that exercise accomplishes. Feel free to enlighten me! :D

I do enjoy all equine related television though. I wish there was more on.

dalpal
Nov. 8, 2007, 03:54 PM
Yes, it was all about this horse finally submitting to a human being. Chris went right for the hindquarters because the horse's ammo was to go backwards and rear. Disengaging the hindquarters is an act of submission. As soon as the horse yeilded to him, he took the pressuer off.

Horse was shaking, but as Chris said...this is an emotional type horse.

Watching that video of him rearing with his rider (ugly rearer), I think Chris wanted to get his point across to him immediately about who was in charge.

FancyFree
Nov. 8, 2007, 04:47 PM
Yes, it was all about this horse finally submitting to a human being. Chris went right for the hindquarters because the horse's ammo was to go backwards and rear. Disengaging the hindquarters is an act of submission. As soon as the horse yeilded to him, he took the pressuer off.

Horse was shaking, but as Chris said...this is an emotional type horse.

Watching that video of him rearing with his rider (ugly rearer), I think Chris wanted to get his point across to him immediately about who was in charge.

I bet that big horse has never had anyone stand up to him, the way he got so upset over it. Chris mentioned something about him being a bad loader. I would love to see how he works that issue out. I don't normally get this channel, but I'm housesitting right now. The owners have every channel under the sun. Hopefully they'll be gone long enough for me to see more episodes!

katarine
Nov. 8, 2007, 10:10 PM
Chris is the real deal. Glad to know he's getting a chance at a tougher horse. I've no doubt he can manage Pooky the monster pone ;)

BabyGoose
Nov. 8, 2007, 10:26 PM
To me it looked like the horse was shaking from fatigue. He might be in good shape for schooling dressage, but the excercises Chris was putting him through are probably using a whole different set of muscles. He also looked a little over at the knee, and seemed like his leg was buckling a little, again possibly from fatigue.

I like Chris the best of all the RFD trainers. If you watch the beginning where he is riding his roan horse, the horse is moving very nicely and correctly collected, round, and reaching. Not behind the contact like Clintons horses.

dalpal
Nov. 9, 2007, 09:25 AM
To me it looked like the horse was shaking from fatigue. He might be in good shape for schooling dressage, but the excercises Chris was putting him through are probably using a whole different set of muscles. He also looked a little over at the knee, and seemed like his leg was buckling a little, again possibly from fatigue.

I like Chris the best of all the RFD trainers. If you watch the beginning where he is riding his roan horse, the horse is moving very nicely and correctly collected, round, and reaching. Not behind the contact like Clintons horses.


NO kidding, that is a nice little quarter horse and Chris rides him beautifully. If I remember correctly, Chris does have some hunter/jumper background from Australia. He said once on the show that he does some dressage work with that little roan horse.

I have a soft spot for Chris because I think he is quite lovely . :yes:

Eclectic Horseman
Nov. 9, 2007, 02:04 PM
Yes, it was all about this horse finally submitting to a human being. Chris went right for the hindquarters because the horse's ammo was to go backwards and rear. Disengaging the hindquarters is an act of submission. As soon as the horse yeilded to him, he took the pressuer off.

Horse was shaking, but as Chris said...this is an emotional type horse.

Watching that video of him rearing with his rider (ugly rearer), I think Chris wanted to get his point across to him immediately about who was in charge.

What drivel. Was this a GRAND PRIX DRESSAGE horse or wasn't he? If he was, then I can assure you that he "submitted to a human being" his entire career. You don't get one tempis and piaffe on a horse that isn't submissive. You don't get to shows unless the horse loads in a trailer, etc. :(

In my own limited experience, it is sometimes just because a horse is submissive that he works through pain until he can no longer do it any more and he starts to act out. If this is seen as a behavior or training problem, and not correctly as a veterinary problem, then it can become dangerous.

If you solve the underlying physical problem, and that is a very big IF as sometimes it is difficult to diagnose let alone treat, then you will have the mental trauma to overcome. Sometimes such horses can be okay in second careers that do not involve a lot of physical and mental stress. But if you try to bring them back to the level that they were at, it isn't going to happen.

"Finally submitting to a human being," indeed! :no: SOUR is almost always spelled S-O-R-E.

dalpal
Nov. 9, 2007, 03:11 PM
I would bet money that these people have probably done everything they can think of in the pain department..because that is certainly easier to fix then a soured horse. :yes:

If you watch the video..the horse is absolutely fine until after he halts at X..then he goes to rearing and bucking...so it is something to do with the ring...perhaps he remembers something bad, I don't know.

monstrpony
Nov. 9, 2007, 03:44 PM
Also, if the work that Chris does fails to fix the problem, any remaining physical avenues can still be explored, but, I agree with dalpal, I bet that's already been done. As skeptical as most dressage people are of the horsemanship set, I suspect this is a last resort.

You can "get" one-tempis and piaffe in the pasture--no submission required. As Anky has clearly demonstrated, lots of really good dressage horses are not entirely submissive, only selectively so. I would call them more situationally cooperative, rather than truely submissive (completely accepting of a trusted leader). And especially not submissive from the ground in ways that carry over to under-saddle work.

And I would expect the horse to have a significant reaction to someone changing the rules on her in this way. But, she'll get over it, get through it, and be much happier in the long run for it.

I'm betting that Chris Cox will be able to help this horse. It will be interesting to follow.

marta
Nov. 9, 2007, 03:51 PM
maybe that's just my frame of mind lately.

Eclectic Horseman
Nov. 9, 2007, 04:04 PM
Also, if the work that Chris does fails to fix the problem, any remaining physical avenues can still be explored, but, I agree with dalpal, I bet that's already been done. As skeptical as most dressage people are of the horsemanship set, I suspect this is a last resort.

You can "get" one-tempis and piaffe in the pasture--no submission required. As Anky has clearly demonstrated, lots of really good dressage horses are not entirely submissive, only selectively so. I would call them more situationally cooperative, rather than truely submissive (completely accepting of a trusted leader). And especially not submissive from the ground in ways that carry over to under-saddle work.

And I would expect the horse to have a significant reaction to someone changing the rules on her in this way. But, she'll get over it, get through it, and be much happier in the long run for it.

I'm betting that Chris Cox will be able to help this horse. It will be interesting to follow.

I'd like to see you "get" one-tempis and piaffe in the pasture. :lol: What are you talking about? I am talking about TRAINING. That's what a Grand Prix dressage horse is. Years and Years of training. With a rider. In a dressage arena. Doing precise movements in response to the AIDS. No horse is 100% submissive all the time. They are horses not robots. But you don't get that high level of training without submission to the aids.

<sigh> Why do I bother? :( Call me when Chris Cox is showing this horse at Grand Prix. :rolleyes:

monstrpony
Nov. 9, 2007, 04:30 PM
It's not the point for Chris Cox to show the horse at Grand Prix. His job is to patch a hole in the horse's relationship with its riders. When that's done so that the riders CAN do their job, then it will be their job to show the horse at GP.

If all those years of training can't get the horse down the centerline--for *whatever* reason--and CC can help get the horse there, then what he does has some value. It doesn't have to live up to every aspect of the dressage ideal to be useful.

As much as it pains you to face this, the dressage world does not have a corner on all successful and useful work with horses. If it did, Anky wouldn't be getting run off with, and this horse would go down the centerline in a cooperative manner. Granted, these things may not be values to dressage people--Anky will always have a line of police horses to save her butt, and the people who own this horse can always just send her to be a lower-level schoolmaster and buy themselves another GP horse--but there are people who value the idea of making this horse happy and comfortable in her work. She is not now. If her current GP riders can't get her there, and CC can, then it will make me feel better for her.

Bluey
Nov. 9, 2007, 04:39 PM
It's not the point for Chris Cox to show the horse at Grand Prix. His job is to patch a hole in the horse's relationship with its riders. When that's done so that the riders CAN do their job, then it will be their job to show the horse at GP.

If all those years of training can't get the horse down the centerline--for *whatever* reason--and CC can help get the horse there, then what he does has some value. It doesn't have to live up to every aspect of the dressage ideal to be useful.

As much as it pains you to face this, the dressage world does not have a corner on all successful and useful work with horses. If it did, Anky wouldn't be getting run off with, and this horse would go down the centerline in a cooperative manner. Granted, these things may not be values to dressage people--Anky will always have a line of police horses to save her butt, and the people who own this horse can always just send her to be a lower-level schoolmaster and buy themselves another GP horse--but there are people who value the idea of making this horse happy and comfortable in her work. She is not now. If her current GP riders can't get her there, and CC can, then it will make me feel better for her.

Are you sure the horse is "fixed" now, back showing AND because of what CC did?:confused:

monstrpony
Nov. 9, 2007, 04:46 PM
Not at all; it was my understanding that the series hasn't gotten to that point yet. But I do believe in the kind of work the CC does, and that it has the potential to help this horse. It isn't necessary for CC to show the horse at GP for the horse to be helped. And if the current riders are already being successful without CC, what is the point of the exercise?

Sithly
Nov. 9, 2007, 05:25 PM
Just wanted to say that I know plenty of horses who are capable of advanced movements under saddle but are pigs on the ground. Any horse can have holes in its training -- just look at all the "my horse won't load" posts on here. Or go to just about any show and watch people get dragged around by their horses. It happens.

MontanaDun
Nov. 9, 2007, 06:00 PM
When I got my GP schoolmaster, he was 21. He would walk over you like you didn't exist.

His manners have improved quite a bit at our house (a little NH goes a long way), but I can tell you they weren't a big priority in his life and had nothing to do with his physical state. LOL

MD

dalpal
Nov. 9, 2007, 06:01 PM
I just posted incase someone wanted to watch...not to start a debate on pain, etc.

I know some people who can ride FEI horses, but that doesn't make them trainers. ;)

Perhaps this horse was just too much for everyone that this owner had tried..perhaps this is the last chance this horse has and they called Chris Cox in to try and get him over the rearing.

Ever have a rearer??? I have....could I fix it..no. I sent the horse to a cowboy type trainer, did he fix it..yes.

Caecilius
Nov. 9, 2007, 06:57 PM
Readers of this thread may be interested in the "Biomechanics Question" topic on Deb Bennett's forum - this forum can be found via www.equinestudies.org

dalpal
Nov. 9, 2007, 07:02 PM
Cool site..thanks for posting. I love reading about biomechanics :yes:

Sithly
Nov. 9, 2007, 07:31 PM
Readers of this thread may be interested in the "Biomechanics Question" topic on Deb Bennett's forum - this forum can be found via www.equinestudies.org


Cowboy methods on a dressage horse? *gasp* The horror! :lol::lol:



(Just kidding. This thread has been very pleasant and non-trainwrecky so far. :) )

FancyFree
Nov. 9, 2007, 09:34 PM
Eclectic Horseman do you think it's possible for horses to become just plain old sour, having nothing to do with pain? I know of a third level horse that just got fed up with going into the ring and back to his stall. He started to refuse to enter the ring, just like this horse did. It didn't help that his owner was afraid to get after him. He's obviously not at the same level of training as the one in the show, but he was a previously very docile horse. He had every veterinary check possible. He was completely fine. It wasn't a pain thing, but a mind thing. The owner sent him off to some cowboy who mainly rode trail with him. He also worked on his ground manners which apparently were severely lacking. I do believe previously well trained animals can have melt downs that are not induce by pain. Maybe the horse that CC is working with has been allowed to get away with more and more, that he's now acting out in the ring. I'll wager money that his owners have had all kinds of tests done on him. In the intro, CC said something about it being "a last resort."

Gestalt
Nov. 10, 2007, 11:39 AM
It isn't just dressage horses getting ring sour. Many disciplines have horses that are being whipped by ground handlers to get the rider in the ring. Maybe many of them are sore and sour?

Chris Cox is a trainer that doesn't make working a horse into "magic". He just gives the horse what they need to learn as do many of the so-called cowboy trainers.

MassageLady
Nov. 10, 2007, 12:06 PM
SOUR is almost always spelled S-O-R-E
I LOVE this quote!! Can I use it on my website????
I haven't seen the show, but what have they done to change things for this horse? If it were mine, it would've been in a different saddle and bridle-maybe even just a halter,and out on trails for a few months! Too much ringwork will make them hate it! My dressage horse was also an excellent trail horse! She hated ringwork, but would do it anyway because she knew she would also be on trails. Has this person used things to force the head down? or perhaps rode the horse with contact the entire time? I always work about 5min on contact, then they have a loose rein, and just are asked to move forward. This way it helps them to not become sore or sour.:yes:

AZ Native
Nov. 10, 2007, 12:50 PM
quote=FancyFree;2793961]Eclectic Horseman do you think it's possible for horses to become just plain old sour, having nothing to do with pain? I know of a third level horse that just got fed up with going into the ring and back to his stall. He started to refuse to enter the ring, just like this horse did. It didn't help that his owner was afraid to get after him. He's obviously not at the same level of training as the one in the show, but he was a previously very docile horse. He had every veterinary check possible. He was completely fine. It wasn't a pain thing, but a mind thing. The owner sent him off to some cowboy who mainly rode trail with him. He also worked on his ground manners which apparently were severely lacking. I do believe previously well trained animals can have melt downs that are not induce by pain. Maybe the horse that CC is working with has been allowed to get away with more and more, that he's now acting out in the ring. I'll wager money that his owners have had all kinds of tests done on him.''
My Arab's original owner tried everything ! The vets could find NOTHING wrong with him. I wound up with him, gave him a variety of things to do not related to the show ring, and 7 yrs later he is fine. He has been shown once and did fine, no '' fidgitting '' or blowing up as he had with the original owner. He was just plain old ring sour from drill, drill ,drill.
OP, thanks for the heads up on the show.

MassageLady
Nov. 10, 2007, 02:57 PM
My friend got a show horse from a trainer-another friend worked for said trainer and 'hated this horse'. We took him on trails-he was wonderful! He tried his best to do what was asked of him...she even put her 3yr old on him and ponied him off her other horse. He is soooo good around her kids, if one is nearby he just freezes! He won't move until that child is safely away. sometimes they just need to do something else. My 'Mr. Wonderful' trail horse absolutely hates being ridden in the indoor, I ride him in there sometimes just to keep his muscle tone, but I understand he doesn't like it so I don't ask for much. Other than that, he's fantastic.:yes:

Kyzteke
Nov. 10, 2007, 03:19 PM
Eclectic Horseman do you think it's possible for horses to become just plain old sour, having nothing to do with pain? I."

Of course! Race horses often get sour, because mostly all they do is gallop around in a cirlce over and over again, day after day. ANY performance horse can get sour, which is just another word for BORED OUT OF MY GOURD!!!

I know lots of dressage horses who never get out of the ring and their riders work them relentlessly on 20 m circles. So sure they can get sour.

And yes, CC will "fix" the horse. These shows aren't live, they are taped. So you can bet your butt that if it all doesn't turn out ok, the show will not be aired.

I guess I have to ask -- what makes it ok for CC to criticize dressage (which is essentially what he's doing by doing a whole series on "Sour Dressage Horses"...I mean, why not "Performance HOrses Gone Sour?") and not other NH trainers?

You know, these guys are all doing essentially the same thing. CC isn't doing anything that isn't being done by Buck Brannaman, Ray Hunt, PP, Clint Anderson, Peter Campbell, etc. They all dress it up and do things in a slightly different order or give cute little names to their equipment or techniques, but all of them use basically the same manuevers.

dalpal
Nov. 10, 2007, 04:58 PM
Oh good gracious..he is not slamming dressage. He has a dressage horse that is sour..therefore the series is called..the soured dressage horse. Sorry, but he has never once slammed any other discipline on his show..unlike some other NH people.

I don't know what the owners have done for the horse....I'm sure that as most of us, especially those who have imported big money dressage horses..I doubt they've ignored saddle fit or chiro, etc.

Anyway, for anyone who wants to watch it's on. I sure wish I knew CC well enough (oh boy do I ever..LOL!), to sit here and answer all your questions..but I don't. I watch his show because I think he does a great job at what he does.

slc2
Nov. 11, 2007, 06:45 AM
If I had a soured dressage horse, I'd send him to a dressage trainer, not a Western trainer. If I had a soured western horse, I wouldn't send him to a dressage trainer as well.

The aids are different and the corrections are different. The dressage horse needs to come into the bridle more. If the sourness was fixed by teaching him to go like a western horse, not as up in the bridle, there would be a hell of a problem again when trying to ride him like a dressage horse, especially since most of the time, the 'sour' horse is the one who figures out his rider doesn't put him to the bridle, and all his rearing, balking, and refusing to obey actually stems from that very, very simple thing - he isn't ridden into both reins with the rider's legs.

Riding the horse on a long, loose rein like Chris Cox does just exacerbates the usual problem - the horse is taught he doesn't have to go up into the bridle the same way as a dressage horse, so he's going to refuse to do that more and more, not less and less.

I think there's something fundamentally flawed with the idea, unless the goal is to convert the horse over to Western riding. Then it makes sense. If the horse isn't doing what the owner wants, it needs to be ridden by someone who rides in the same style as the owner, not in some totally different method. The same style - just more correct and effective.

Horses are called 'sour' when they are disobedient and balk, refuse to turn, or run back to the barn. They may rear when asked to go forward, buck when the leg is put on.

Usually, the problem is that the horse was ridden incorrectly, not that he needs to be ridden by a different kind of trainer specifially.

Usually, this happens when the rider is a passive passenger and doesn't make corrections when behavior starts. The RIDER would need to go to the trainer too, and learn how to ride differently. Sending the horse to a trainer who is going to punish him for being disobedient doesn't do much good for the rider who caused the problem. The horse will go back to him and start having the same problems again. The rider has to change. Having some strong rider insist on some basic obedience or riding the horse like a greenie where he isn't up in the bridle, doesn't always help the basic problem, ESPECIALLY when it's the usual deal - that the horse doesn't want to go up to the bridle, because he was not ridden correctly for a long time.

Seeing someone force the horse to be obedient, can help the rider understand that it's possible and show him what to do and when, but unless he gets some instruction it will not help in the long run - TOO, if he's just a very passive timid person who doesn't do well with a more pushy sort of horse, and is simply on an inappropriately difficult horse, or if, unfortunately, be firmly believes and won't change his mind, that a horse is supposed to be trained with ineffective unrealistic methods - then also, sending the horse to a trainer isn't going to help. Additionally, sending the horse to a trainer isn't going to help if the horse is in pain and he's being 'sour' because he hurts somewhere!

And unless he at least SEES the training and what's happening, it's entirely pointless regardless of what sort of riding style the trainer has.

For example, the rider needs to ride the horse into both reins, sit evenly, and use both legs, and if he doesn't get a response, back it up very quickly with leg, then whip, and keep the horse sharp and responding quickly to the aids. Too, he needs to reward the horse for obedience, and his riding needs to follow a very clear and simple program, with frequent rides, instruction when the rider gets into problems he can't solve himself, and having clear goals and a plan every time he gets on the horse.

dalpal
Nov. 11, 2007, 08:35 AM
Alas..but it isn't your horse slc. :lol:

I'm also glad that you have dressage trainers in your area willing to take on a problem horse....most in my area do not want to deal with them and I honestly, don't blame someone for not wanting to ride a rearer.

I don't have a problem with Mr. Cox....after watching him ride several horses...he has a wonderful seat and IF he wanted, he could probably be out there showing FEI horses just like the other big boys...but he's passion is cutting and reining.

I like a good horse trainer period..I don't care what their discipline is. ;)

Anyway, I am planning on watching and enjoying myself thoroughly, might even learn a thing or two ;)

slc2
Nov. 11, 2007, 09:32 AM
I'm well aware that it isn't my horse. And I will also be watching, but recognize the show has a limited picture. The show won't show the owner riding the horse a year from now, will it.:winkgrin:

At the same time, I don't care for how Chris Cox rides, so I wouldn't send a horse to him whether it was a western horse or not. If Anky rode like him, you'd all burn her at the stake, you'd be at the FEI's front door with placards and torches. He uses a curb bit and has it at an angle that you would SCREAM about if you saw it on an FEI rider at a show. You'd have hysterics if you saw a dressage rider using spurs the size that he uses, or bits like he uses. If you saw Anky turn a horse's head like that in a warmup and hold it to one side, or saw the horse run backwards, you'd have a fit. HE can take a horse to a stream and have it run backwards, and it's OKAY with you guys because he has a convincing rap during the display, if Anky van Grunsven did exactly the same thing, you'd be having hysterics about how dressage horses don't get trail ridden enough, dressage competitors want to win at any cost, dressage riders don't know how to cross a stream, dressage riders can't ride cross country, yadda yadda yadda.

He gets horses to do things, yes. He also jerks, spurs, whips the horse's head around, holds it in position with the rein, and does things I can't comprehend how any of you can stand.

Even just as a Western trainer, I know local people who ride better and are far less rough. I've watched one local man I know ride for many, many years, and he never does anything like this, even with the roughest horses. And his western horses wind up beautiful - consistent, cooperative, supple, balanced and with a long, active yet relaxed stride.

I would NEVER send a horse to him. His success in this particular group is an amazing example of how media can put a spin on something you don't like, and you'll eat it up.

I've watched many people send their horses to western trainers when the horses were difficult. I haven't seen one yet, that didn't go to a dressage trainer afterwards.

When a horse is sour, I feel it's better to have someone skilled in the method of riding that made him sour, and correct what was done wrong, rather than put him in a different kind of training.

This is a fundamental difference between how i think of horse training and how and why I think problems develop, and how others may think about it. I realize that.

And while I realize that many people feel western training doesn't make sour horses, and is a good way to fix a sour horse from other disciplines, or that celebrity trainers like Chris Cox have a line on some method that is better than what any dressge trainer accessible to them uses, I don't agree with that.

I don't understand how someone can profess so much respect for dressage, or so much interest or spend so much time debating its points, and then cheer when a western trainer rides the horse on a loose rein and kicks and jerks it and makes it do things it wouldn't for the owner.

I know for sure, that if a rider doesn't ride the horse into both reins with his legs, and if he doesn't keep his training simple, no celebrity is going to make that rider get along with any horse. The rider has to change. The rider has to get riding lessons, supervision, and advice.

No celebrity trainer can take a horse and fix what needs to be fixed in the horse's owner.

FancyFree
Nov. 11, 2007, 10:34 AM
I don't understand how someone can profess so much respect for dressage, or so much interest or spend so much time debating its points, and then cheer when a western trainer rides the horse on a loose rein and kicks and jerks it and makes it do things it wouldn't for the owner.

From what I saw, CC said he was going to be working on this horse's ground manners. I don't think he will be riding him at all. Whether it be western, dressage, saddleseat or whatever, good ground manners are the same for any discipline. I didn't get the impression that he was ever going to ride this horse. Did you Dalpal? I thought he said something about working on loading. I'll pay closer attention for the next episode. :)


No celebrity trainer can take a horse and fix what needs to be fixed in the horse's owner.

I do agree with this. Chris may "fix" this horse, but in six months or less, he'll be back to his old ways. Hopefully Chris is also working with the owner.

Also as for Chris slamming on dressage by the title of the show, I'd didn't come away with that at all. I think he is trying to reach a broader audience by specifying what discipline this horse does. I know if the title were "Correcting the Sour Gymkanna Horse", I wouldn't have tuned in.

mbm
Nov. 11, 2007, 11:15 AM
What drivel. Was this a GRAND PRIX DRESSAGE horse or wasn't he? If he was, then I can assure you that he "submitted to a human being" his entire career. You don't get one tempis and piaffe on a horse that isn't submissive. You don't get to shows unless the horse loads in a trailer, etc. :(

In my own limited experience, it is sometimes just because a horse is submissive that he works through pain until he can no longer do it any more and he starts to act out. If this is seen as a behavior or training problem, and not correctly as a veterinary problem, then it can become dangerous.

If you solve the underlying physical problem, and that is a very big IF as sometimes it is difficult to diagnose let alone treat, then you will have the mental trauma to overcome. Sometimes such horses can be okay in second careers that do not involve a lot of physical and mental stress. But if you try to bring them back to the level that they were at, it isn't going to happen.

"Finally submitting to a human being," indeed! :no: SOUR is almost always spelled S-O-R-E.

great post. and i agree 100%

BabyGoose
Nov. 11, 2007, 11:46 AM
Chris Cox seems to be one of the better TV Cowboy trainers out there. At least for a horse with a future in dressage. Yes they all use basically the same methods. But when he rides that roan horse of his on the bit and moving forward it is IMHO much more correct than alot of the professional dressage that is winning these days. To me that is the way horses should look when "doing dressage". So obviously his training carries over so that his horses could be ridden "dressage". Some of the other trainers like Clinton Anderson tend to again IMHO get the horse to back off the bit to the point that they might not take up contact, and they seem behind the bit and overflexed.

In the end, they are all trainers that we see on TV. Hard telling what they are really like off camera and off tour. I think they all end up getting a little too commercial.

dalpal
Nov. 11, 2007, 02:23 PM
I'm well aware that it isn't my horse. And I will also be watching, but recognize the show has a limited picture. The show won't show the owner riding the horse a year from now, will it.:winkgrin:

At the same time, I don't care for how Chris Cox rides, so I wouldn't send a horse to him whether it was a western horse or not. If Anky rode like him, you'd all burn her at the stake, you'd be at the FEI's front door with placards and torches. He uses a curb bit and has it at an angle that you would SCREAM about if you saw it on an FEI rider at a show. You'd have hysterics if you saw a dressage rider using spurs the size that he uses, or bits like he uses. If you saw Anky turn a horse's head like that in a warmup and hold it to one side, or saw the horse run backwards, you'd have a fit. HE can take a horse to a stream and have it run backwards, and it's OKAY with you guys because he has a convincing rap during the display, if Anky van Grunsven did exactly the same thing, you'd be having hysterics about how dressage horses don't get trail ridden enough, dressage competitors want to win at any cost, dressage riders don't know how to cross a stream, dressage riders can't ride cross country, yadda yadda yadda.

He gets horses to do things, yes. He also jerks, spurs, whips the horse's head around, holds it in position with the rein, and does things I can't comprehend how any of you can stand.

Even just as a Western trainer, I know local people who ride better and are far less rough. I've watched one local man I know ride for many, many years, and he never does anything like this, even with the roughest horses. And his western horses wind up beautiful - consistent, cooperative, supple, balanced and with a long, active yet relaxed stride.

I would NEVER send a horse to him. His success in this particular group is an amazing example of how media can put a spin on something you don't like, and you'll eat it up.

I've watched many people send their horses to western trainers when the horses were difficult. I haven't seen one yet, that didn't go to a dressage trainer afterwards.

When a horse is sour, I feel it's better to have someone skilled in the method of riding that made him sour, and correct what was done wrong, rather than put him in a different kind of training.

This is a fundamental difference between how i think of horse training and how and why I think problems develop, and how others may think about it. I realize that.

And while I realize that many people feel western training doesn't make sour horses, and is a good way to fix a sour horse from other disciplines, or that celebrity trainers like Chris Cox have a line on some method that is better than what any dressge trainer accessible to them uses, I don't agree with that.

I don't understand how someone can profess so much respect for dressage, or so much interest or spend so much time debating its points, and then cheer when a western trainer rides the horse on a loose rein and kicks and jerks it and makes it do things it wouldn't for the owner.

I know for sure, that if a rider doesn't ride the horse into both reins with his legs, and if he doesn't keep his training simple, no celebrity is going to make that rider get along with any horse. The rider has to change. The rider has to get riding lessons, supervision, and advice.

No celebrity trainer can take a horse and fix what needs to be fixed in the horse's owner.


Now when have I ever burned Anky at the stake???? Never.
Personally I do really like Chris Cox and he can come ride my horse anytime. :lol:;)

dalpal
Nov. 11, 2007, 02:26 PM
From what I saw, CC said he was going to be working on this horse's ground manners. I don't think he will be riding him at all. Whether it be western, dressage, saddleseat or whatever, good ground manners are the same for any discipline. I didn't get the impression that he was ever going to ride this horse. Did you Dalpal? I thought he said something about working on loading. I'll pay closer attention for the next episode. :)



I do agree with this. Chris may "fix" this horse, but in six months or less, he'll be back to his old ways. Hopefully Chris is also working with the owner.

Also as for Chris slamming on dressage by the title of the show, I'd didn't come away with that at all. I think he is trying to reach a broader audience by specifying what discipline this horse does. I know if the title were "Correcting the Sour Gymkanna Horse", I wouldn't have tuned in.

Now I get the impression that he will be riding the horse..I dunno.

Heck, I'm not going to sit here and debate this with you guys...you can make your own opinions. I'm going to pop a big bag of popcorn and go enjoy the show and perhaps take a thing or two away from it...maybe not, who knows. ;)

I do agree with Baby Goose on Chris and his lovely little roan horse...that horse is really using himself in that clip and Chris is just sitting quietly out of his way.

Aimee Thanatogenus
Nov. 11, 2007, 03:49 PM
Thank you for saying this!

I hate these teletrainers and their drivel.

:mad:

What drivel. Was this a GRAND PRIX DRESSAGE horse or wasn't he? If he was, then I can assure you that he "submitted to a human being" his entire career. You don't get one tempis and piaffe on a horse that isn't submissive. You don't get to shows unless the horse loads in a trailer, etc. :(

In my own limited experience, it is sometimes just because a horse is submissive that he works through pain until he can no longer do it any more and he starts to act out. If this is seen as a behavior or training problem, and not correctly as a veterinary problem, then it can become dangerous.

If you solve the underlying physical problem, and that is a very big IF as sometimes it is difficult to diagnose let alone treat, then you will have the mental trauma to overcome. Sometimes such horses can be okay in second careers that do not involve a lot of physical and mental stress. But if you try to bring them back to the level that they were at, it isn't going to happen.

"Finally submitting to a human being," indeed! :no: SOUR is almost always spelled S-O-R-E.

minnie
Nov. 11, 2007, 04:14 PM
Of all the t.v. "cowboys" I've enjoyed and learned the most from Chris Cox. I've particularly enjoyed his "problem horse" shows as the horses and disciplines have been so varied. He has a very common sense approach and really doesn't use gimmicks - just the Pressure and relief from pressure method for the most part. He's had several shows featuring dressage and in one show he and the dressage rider (believe it was a grand prix horse) switched horses and Chris did very well riding the dressage horse. They were doing the same maneuvers together. He's done a couple race horse "fixes" that were pretty awesome imho. I'm sure that the owner of this particular horse has had instructors and trainers working with the horse and he has just continued to deteriorate in behavior. And Chris has had shows where things didn't exactly go "according to script", but he worked through them in front of the camera and the show aired. At the very least, don't denigrate him until and unless you actually watch to see what he does with this horse and how it turns out. Benefit of the doubt and all that.

Sithly
Nov. 11, 2007, 04:54 PM
I guess I have to ask -- what makes it ok for CC to criticize dressage (which is essentially what he's doing by doing a whole series on "Sour Dressage Horses"...I mean, why not "Performance HOrses Gone Sour?") and not other NH trainers?

Probably the same reason it's okay for you to criticize NH trainers and lump them all into one group. :D


If Anky rode like him, you'd all burn her at the stake, you'd be at the FEI's front door with placards and torches.

Yeah. Because right now she's loved by all. :rolleyes:

SLC -- since I seem to recall you defending Anky in another thread, I have to wonder: do you still like her now (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/not_telling/ankyVanGrunsven_125x1451.jpg)?

:lol:

dalpal
Nov. 11, 2007, 05:06 PM
Sithly..totally agree...

Unlike "Some" NH TV folks...who go out of their way to slam dressage...

A person with a dressage horse called up CC and asked him to try and help them...he said..I sure will if I can use it for my show..they agreed. Therefore, CC is actually trying to help a dressage person and her horse...the dressage horse seems to be soured to his work...aka the title of the series is called "The Soured Dressage Horse" not The "All Dressage Horses are soured, spooky, hates their job"..like some eh um, other NH trainers would like to have us believe.

So no, I do not lump CC and Pat Parelli in the same group of Cowboy trainers. CC isn't spending the entire show telling us all about how wonderful he is....instead he is telling his audience what he is doing and the reason behind it..incase, godforbid, you might need to use that info at some point. :lol: Heck, I don't even know if CC is married, where as PP has told us everything except the details of his honeymoon. :lol::lol::lol::lol:

Edited to add...I did state in the Parelli thread that the only two cowboy type trainers that I find helpful on RFD TV FOR ME are Chris Cox and Tommy Garland.....I think both those men do a wonderful job getting their messages across and are trying to give you useful/helpful info. I don't watch CA or some of the others...the two that really hooked me in were CC and TG....both who have been rather successful in their fields of expertise.

jvanrens
Nov. 11, 2007, 06:45 PM
He uses a curb bit and has it at an angle that you would SCREAM about if you saw it on an FEI rider at a show.

:lol: Not being terribly familiar with Chris Cox, I took a quick look around and checked out his website. The curb bits he sells on his site aren't anything to burn him at the stake over, besides the fact he also sells snaffles. :rolleyes: Medium port, grazing bits, definitely not a horrendous mouthful and milder than than the curbs often used with a double bridle, since the shank is bent back towards the horse, softening the action of the bit. But I'm sure you knew that already. ;)


No celebrity trainer can take a horse and fix what needs to be fixed in the horse's owner.

Odds are this particular owner/rider was running out of options in their dressage world and decided to think outside the box. :yes: Hopefully it works. Wish I could watch it, but I don't get it here. Anyone want to record it for me? I think it would be interesting to watch.

dalpal
Nov. 11, 2007, 06:54 PM
Javen..I am recording the series...can send you a copy when it's done.:)

jvanrens
Nov. 11, 2007, 07:19 PM
Javen..I am recording the series...can send you a copy when it's done.:)

That would be great dalpal! :yes: Please let me know when it's done and what postage would cost.

dalpal
Nov. 11, 2007, 07:22 PM
Will do.....you'll probably have to send me a PM to remind me...there's 4 in the series...so will probably be done in 3 weeks.

slc2
Nov. 11, 2007, 07:55 PM
do you really believe that this 'grand prix dressage horse' is owned by an experienced dressage rider at this point, or that this is a real situation, or that participation in the tv show suggests anything about what's really going on with the owner or horse?

monstrpony
Nov. 11, 2007, 08:03 PM
Yaaawwwwwwnnn

dalpal
Nov. 11, 2007, 08:05 PM
do you really believe that this 'grand prix dressage horse' is owned by an experienced dressage rider at this point, or that this is a real situation, or that participation in the tv show suggests anything about what's really going on with the owner or horse?

Sure do. ;)

You really do crack me up....I just don't take life that seriously. I do know that CC has a very good reputation and I don't think he's taken a mule and passed it off as a GP horse for his show. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Sithly
Nov. 11, 2007, 08:33 PM
do you really believe that this 'grand prix dressage horse' is owned by an experienced dressage rider at this point, or that this is a real situation, or that participation in the tv show suggests anything about what's really going on with the owner or horse?

Good point. We are probably not getting the full story. In fact, I'm pretty sure this horse is not actually a horse at all, but an undercover government official posing as a horse, with the goal of distracting us from the things that really matter. Or possibly a space alien.

Either way, I want my tinfoil hat.

dalpal
Nov. 11, 2007, 08:48 PM
Good point. We are probably not getting the full story. In fact, I'm pretty sure this horse is not actually a horse at all, but an undercover government official posing as a horse, with the goal of distracting us from the things that really matter. Or possibly a space alien.

Either way, I want my tinfoil hat.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::eek::eek: :eek::eek::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::yes::yes: :yes::yes::yes::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

AZ Native
Nov. 11, 2007, 09:54 PM
Stithly, You made my evening ! :lol: That was wicked :cool:

vittoria
Nov. 11, 2007, 10:04 PM
definitely a government plot to distract our attention from Area 51

dalpal
Nov. 11, 2007, 10:50 PM
definitely a government plot to distract our attention from Area 51

Or the Stargate Program with General Dover and his 4 assistants who are disgusing themselves as contestants. I'm sure General Dover and General Cox are in this together. That Damn Bush. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

NoDQhere
Nov. 11, 2007, 10:54 PM
I refrained from getting into this thread until I watched episode 1 this afternoon. After watching, I agree 100% with SLC (and others who realize what drivel this is) This horse acts like a spoiled brat and I doubt that all the CC stuff in the world is going to get him back down center line unless he is very correctly ridden and disciplined.

I don't think the horse is even "bad" on the ground. In fact he looks and acts like a decent, friendly horse who is trying to figure out the nonsense. He has been allowed to misbehave and some "fair" discipline would "fix" his ground manners in a few minutes, IMO.

Now I realize of course that this is something neat for RFD TV and it was fun to watch. The stuff CC is doing won't hurt the horse, and I bet he will enjoy riding the horse when the time comes. But I really doubt that CC will be the rider who will get this horse through a GP test.

FancyFree
Nov. 11, 2007, 11:00 PM
Good point. We are probably not getting the full story. In fact, I'm pretty sure this horse is not actually a horse at all, but an undercover government official posing as a horse, with the goal of distracting us from the things that really matter. Or possibly a space alien.

Either way, I want my tinfoil hat.

Hilarious. :lol:

dalpal
Nov. 11, 2007, 11:03 PM
I refrained from getting into this thread until I watched episode 1 this afternoon. After watching, I agree 100% with SLC (and others who realize what drivel this is) This horse acts like a spoiled brat and I doubt that all the CC stuff in the world is going to get him back down center line unless he is very correctly ridden and disciplined.

I don't think the horse is even "bad" on the ground. In fact he looks and acts like a decent, friendly horse who is trying to figure out the nonsense. He has been allowed to misbehave and some "fair" discipline would "fix" his ground manners in a few minutes, IMO.

Now I realize of course that this is something neat for RFD TV and it was fun to watch. The stuff CC is doing won't hurt the horse, and I bet he will enjoy riding the horse when the time comes. But I really doubt that CC will be the rider who will get this horse through a GP test.


No argument on that point for sure...just because an experienced trainer can fix the problem, doesn't mean the owner/rider can continue the program. I hope that isn't the case here...but, I'm just really interested in seeing what CC does to get the horse going again....as someone else pointed out, the show is taped, so obviously he is successful on his end.

I had this discussion with my vet a few weeks ago. And he said that he sees alot of amateurs importing these big fancy, extravagant moving warmbloods....the horse was smooth as silk when they tried him/her in Europe....get the horse home and in a few months the training unravels and horse becomes a rogue/difficult. Of course they go through all the pain/saddle/etc routes and find nothing is wrong.....He said he has seen so many horses that have been donated for tax write offs because the owner/rider never can get the horse together and then leaves the horse unsellable.

So, no, I don't doubt that the horse may respect CC and then go back to his old ways with the rider....but, I hope it all works out for the best.

Kyzteke
Nov. 12, 2007, 08:48 AM
Probably the same reason it's okay for you to criticize NH trainers and lump them all into one group. :D



Ummm, Sithly, I don't think you've read too many of my posts.

I'm actually one of the DEFENDERS of NH on this board...

But they are all using the same basic methods -- I've never watched CC, but I've seen plenty of clinics/videos by Ray Hunt, BB, PP, CA, Peter Campbell, etc. And read the books by the Dorrance Brothers. And you see the same things cropping up over and over again.

I was referring to another, rather lively (and LONG) thread that took place here on COTH regarding dressage and a certain NH trainer.

dalpal
Nov. 12, 2007, 08:54 AM
Ummm, Sithly, I don't think you've read too many of my posts.

I'm actually one of the DEFENDERS of NH on this board...

But they are all using the same basic methods -- I've never watched CC, but I've seen plenty of clinics/videos by Ray Hunt, BB, PP, CA, Peter Campbell, etc. And read the books by the Dorrance Brothers. And you see the same things cropping up over and over again.

I was referring to another, rather lively (and LONG) thread that took place here on COTH regarding dressage and a certain NH trainer.


ONCE AGAIN....I have nothing against PP's method...I have a problem with the fact that he can't keep his arrogant mouth shut. I would prefer to keep this thread about the show that I posted, not using it to defend PP....and no, I do not care for PP. ONCE AGAIN, I stated on the PP thread that the only two NH RFD people that I like are CC and Tommy Garland.

Valentina_32926
Nov. 12, 2007, 09:32 AM
From what I saw, CC said he was going to be working on this horse's ground manners. I don't think he will be riding him at all. Whether it be western, dressage, saddleseat or whatever, good ground manners are the same for any discipline. I didn't get the impression that he was ever going to ride this horse. Did you Dalpal? I thought he said something about working on loading. I'll pay closer attention for the next episode. :)



I do agree with this. Chris may "fix" this horse, but in six months or less, he'll be back to his old ways. Hopefully Chris is also working with the owner.


Our local cowboy trainer fixes the horse THEN works with the owner/rider... of the horse and shows then what to do to prevent it from happening again and how to fix it if it does happen again (and it usually does as the horse wants to "test" the handler/rider/owner...

Eclectic Horseman
Nov. 13, 2007, 10:52 AM
Eclectic Horseman do you think it's possible for horses to become just plain old sour, having nothing to do with pain? I know of a third level horse that just got fed up with going into the ring and back to his stall. He started to refuse to enter the ring, just like this horse did. It didn't help that his owner was afraid to get after him. He's obviously not at the same level of training as the one in the show, but he was a previously very docile horse. He had every veterinary check possible. He was completely fine. It wasn't a pain thing, but a mind thing. The owner sent him off to some cowboy who mainly rode trail with him. He also worked on his ground manners which apparently were severely lacking. I do believe previously well trained animals can have melt downs that are not induce by pain. Maybe the horse that CC is working with has been allowed to get away with more and more, that he's now acting out in the ring. I'll wager money that his owners have had all kinds of tests done on him. In the intro, CC said something about it being "a last resort."

I have been away from my computer for several days, but I am happy to see that slc said very much of what I would have said if I had been here. :yes: Thanks, slc.

To respond to your question, FF, I think that a horse being "sour" is an antiquated notion back from when we knew less than we do today about veterinary science, and things like tack fit, etc. It is still a useful concept for people who have reached the limit of their horsemanship ability-- for them, it is all too easy to anthropomorphize that the horse is misbehaving because he is "sick and tired" of what he is doing or is "bored." These are human emotions that do not apply to horses.

So what does "sour" mean to you? Why do horses misbehave? Are there always "holes" in the horse's training? NO.

First of all, as hard as it is for many of you to understand, upper level dressage riders do not want their horses to be "dead broke." They want them to be pumped up like racehorses and to have an electric response to the aids. A fit, energetic, athletic dressage horse can be so high that he is coming out of his skin just like a racehorse. An upper level rider wouldn't want her horse to be tired or sedated any more than a jockey would a racehorse. So sometimes, yes, these horses act out because they are feeling "frisky" or "high," most often when they are NOT ON THE AIDS and not going forward--such as in a warm up or awards ceremony, or, as with racehorses, in the saddling area. So all the things that you may do to make your horse quiet, lots of turnout with other horses, longeing, calming supplements, lots of hay and quiet feeds--are not what is done with racehorses or upper level dressage horses. So you start with a hot horse, and then keep him hot with appropriate management. That's because they want them brilliant--moving forward with the maximum effort and energy in every gait and movement.

So assuming that the horse is not just being frisky, then misbehavior can come from three other things, in my experience:

1. The horse is physically uncomfortable. Pain tolerance in horses varies like it does with people. Many jumping horses will start stopping at fences because their front hooves are uncomfortable because of synovitus (which was not diagnosable until recently) and yet others will keep jumping with advanced navicular syndrome. It amazes me that some riders think that every veterinary problem can be discovered and treated. When you get to be my age, you find out that even with human beings and all of the advanced diagnositic tests that we have available, things are often undiagnosed or misdiagnosed. When is the last time you heard of a horse getting an MRI or CT Scan? The lesson I learned from my sister's horse that would stop his bucking fits for a while after the latest treatment (saddle fitter, chiropractic, massage, accupunture etc.) was that bone cancer is usually not diagnosed in horses, and all the veterinary and alternative treatments in the world were not going to "fix" the problem. So many horses are sore, not sour. Sometimes they develop an habitual response to pain, and even if the pain is eliminated they will continue the behavior out of fear or habit.

2. The training is harsh and/or abusive. Obviously, all training that works a horse that is in pain is abusive. But a horse can be mentally traumatized by being asked to do more than he is physically or mentally capable of doing--or by being confused and roughly treated by a poor trainer. Many of these horses will misbehave or fight back. These horses are SCARED and mentally traumatized, not sour.

3. The rider is timid and/or incompetent. Most horses test the handler/rider, particularly when the horse is at a young age. If they are able to intimidate the rider, then they become bullies. They have learned how to get their own way. These horses are SPOILED not sour.

To dispell the fiction that dressage trainers won't work with "sour horses," and that you need to get a cowboy to fix them--I agree with slc that this is only true where a horse is no longer mentally or physically capable of doing any sort of dressage (2nd level or above.) Then the horse needs another discipline, or a "dumbing down" to where an intermediate rider can ride him at a non-stressful level. For many trainers, it is just not worth bothering rehabbing a horse that will probably not be able to do any real dressage, or whose owner is not a competent horseman and is not suited to the horse.

So, that's my thinking after 47 years of working with horses. I, too, remember when horses were "sour," and I still see many people using it as a convenient, but meaningless, label today. "Holes" in a horses training--in dressage--means, for example, that the horse may be "not through his back" or is uneven in the contact, and because of these problems, the horse cannot progress to the next level without going back a step to make sure that the foundation is solid. "Holes in training" are not about misbehavior in dressage. Misbehavior can result from the horse being sucked back and unresponsive to the aids, but this is because of timid and/or incompetent riding and the horse becomes SPOILED.

For adult beginners and lower level riders, training is all about the horse being safe and quiet and docile and well behaved. But that is not the "be all and end all" of dressage training any more than it is horse racing. So can cowboy training make a horse quiet and well behaved? Sure, unless the horse is in pain or badly traumatized. But so can any good trainer. It is just not the ultimate GOAL for upper level dressage riders and trainers.

jeano
Nov. 13, 2007, 11:20 AM
I'm fascinated by the discussion about "sourness" in horses. I acquired what was probably the best horse i have ever owned for his canner price due to his being "soured" as a lesson horse. He would hard trot and shake his head and would not do anything else under saddle in his former home. The BO told me he would be a good horse if he were taken out of his lesson string and not made to cart beginners around in endless circles. This horse had a huge imbalance in his neck muscles from the head shaking and the angle at which he carried his head.

I bought the horse, kept him outside, and never ever rode him in a ring while I owned him. He needed precisely two good hard whacks with a whip for failing to take his cue to canter and he began behaving like a perfect little gentleman. He was NEVER massaged, xrayed, or given any kind of a pain workup. His neck slowly went back to normal as the headshaking subsided and finally disappeared over the course of a few months. His "issues " all went away before I ever got his teeth floated, roughly a year after purchase.

He was a wonderful trail horse, could jump like a deer, and oddly enough, for having "soured" as a lesson horse, was perfectly safe with any and all beginner riders. I think his mind just couldnt tolerate the indoor and the circles any longer.

lorilu
Nov. 13, 2007, 11:25 AM
Al I have to say is:
I once had a nice lower level dressage horse who wanted to jump (he did jump before I owned him).
As we progressed along, and the work got more difficult for him (ie, coming off his forehand in his 17.2 frame JUST ENOUGH for First level work), he began to refuse to go to the arena. He bawked, went backwards, fortunately never up. And no, he was NOT built downhill.... he was nice and rather uphill for a non-warmblood. (not TB)
UNTIL I started to carry a whip. THEN he was all nice and fine, OK, we will work.

There were NO pain issues or other vet issues involved, or saddle issues.
It was pure attitude.

I did not wan tto have to carry a whip (never had to use it, just in my hand worked!!).
I sold him to a jumper person.
She told me she has to bribe him with jumps to complete his flat work .

BTW, he was a gem on the ground, very obedient, walked over tarps, trusting, etc etc.

He just doesn't like dressage. IMHO, not every horse is cut out for it beyond TL requirements.

NoDQhere
Nov. 13, 2007, 11:41 AM
Well said, Eclectic Horseman! Very good points.

After rereading my original post, I need to clarify something. I stated that what CC is doing won't hurt the horse. BUT, it won't help him either. The "way too long" leadrope and disengaging the hindquarters method of the NH trainers is very counterproductive for a dressage horse. (or really anything, IMO) We need to be able to work a horse "in hand" for many aspects of dressage training. Piaffe training and lunging to name a couple.

It is so much easier (and sensible) to teach a horse to lead properly, beside (parallel to) his handler and "do" what his handler does. This sets the horse up to pay attention to the handler and follow his lead as opposed to just avoiding the handler. Makes so much more sense. Teaching a horse to always swing his rump away from you is really a bad idea, and a smart horse will soon use it as an evasion. And if you really think disengaging the HQ will give you control, think again. If a horse really wants to, he will get away from you.

I'm not anti cowboy or NH training, but when the NH guys start to "dabble" in dressage, it does worry me. They are tending to take a little bit here and there, then use the "fancy stuff" to impress people without a solid base of knowledge of training a horse beyond WTC.

Eclectic Horseman
Nov. 13, 2007, 11:43 AM
I'm fascinated by the discussion about "sourness" in horses. I acquired what was probably the best horse i have ever owned for his canner price due to his being "soured" as a lesson horse. He would hard trot and shake his head and would not do anything else under saddle in his former home. The BO told me he would be a good horse if he were taken out of his lesson string and not made to cart beginners around in endless circles. This horse had a huge imbalance in his neck muscles from the head shaking and the angle at which he carried his head.

I bought the horse, kept him outside, and never ever rode him in a ring while I owned him. He needed precisely two good hard whacks with a whip for failing to take his cue to canter and he began behaving like a perfect little gentleman. He was NEVER massaged, xrayed, or given any kind of a pain workup. His neck slowly went back to normal as the headshaking subsided and finally disappeared over the course of a few months. His "issues " all went away before I ever got his teeth floated, roughly a year after purchase.

He was a wonderful trail horse, could jump like a deer, and oddly enough, for having "soured" as a lesson horse, was perfectly safe with any and all beginner riders. I think his mind just couldnt tolerate the indoor and the circles any longer.

No, you are anthropmorphizing. He could not tolerate the incompetent riders and the confusion of the different aids by different riders--many sensitive horses will not. Unless he has a physical unsoundness that will cause him discomfort when doing circles, then a decent trainer would have this horse doing ring work in short order. :no:

Eclectic Horseman
Nov. 13, 2007, 11:52 AM
Al I have to say is:
I once had a nice lower level dressage horse who wanted to jump (he did jump before I owned him).
As we progressed along, and the work got more difficult for him (ie, coming off his forehand in his 17.2 frame JUST ENOUGH for First level work), he began to refuse to go to the arena. He bawked, went backwards, fortunately never up. And no, he was NOT built downhill.... he was nice and rather uphill for a non-warmblood. (not TB)
UNTIL I started to carry a whip. THEN he was all nice and fine, OK, we will work.

There were NO pain issues or other vet issues involved, or saddle issues.
It was pure attitude.

I did not wan tto have to carry a whip (never had to use it, just in my hand worked!!).
I sold him to a jumper person.
She told me she has to bribe him with jumps to complete his flat work .

BTW, he was a gem on the ground, very obedient, walked over tarps, trusting, etc etc.

He just doesn't like dressage. IMHO, not every horse is cut out for it beyond TL requirements.

Spoiled horse. Not sour. Spoiled. It is very rare that a lower level dressage horse is trained or ridden without a whip. Particularly big lazy ones. You didn't want to insist that the horse go forward and the horse got spoiled. Doesn't mean the horse couldn't be trained by a trainer who was willing to set the rules about going forward right off the bat.

P.S. How do you know this horse does not have laryngeal hemiplegia or DDSP and has difficulty breathing when exerting himselt on the bit? Big horses very frequently have laryngeal hemiplegia on the left side. This often goes undiagnosed and is frequently a reason that a horse is sucked back. This is just the sort of thing that I mean--you cannot know that a horse is not comfortable unless you are clairvoyant. :no:

NOMIOMI1
Nov. 13, 2007, 11:59 AM
Since I started in reining Ive always resorted to disengaging the hind quarters or neck reining around when a horse was acting up. Unfortunately dressage has changed that and makes it virtually impossible to use any of these tactics. If you don’t punish forward and want the horse light and energetic then using any of the NH training under saddle only untrains the horse (for dressage). Allot of the time the dressage riders (and others) are only even remotely curious about the NH training when their horse is completely dangerous and out of control. The NH trainer takes out the energy and shuts the horse down but does make him amicable. He does have relaxation and is light in the face (off of the bit) but then retraining is in order to get that horse back to actually doing dressage again. Fear is the #1 reason that people turn to a trainer and that goes for any discipline. Advice comes in second so since most people wait until the horse and rider are passed this stage to get help the "send him to a cowboy" idea comes about. It would help if we all bought horses that we could ride ourselves even at their worst and not be afraid and then ride through the behavioral problems that arise or get help earlier when the problems arise. JMO

Eclectic Horseman
Nov. 13, 2007, 12:05 PM
Since I started in reining Ive always resorted to disengaging the hind quarters or neck reining around when a horse was acting up. Unfortunately dressage has changed that and makes it virtually impossible to use any of these tactics. If you don’t punish forward and want the horse light and energetic then using any of the NH training under saddle only untrains the horse (for dressage). Allot of the time the dressage riders (and others) are only even remotely curious about the NH training when their horse is completely dangerous and out of control. The NH trainer takes out the energy and shuts the horse down but does make him amicable. He does have relaxation and is light in the face (off of the bit) but then retraining is in order to get that horse back to actually doing dressage again. Fear is the #1 reason that people turn to a trainer and that goes for any discipline. Advice comes in second so since most people wait until the horse and rider are passed this stage to get help the "send him to a cowboy" idea comes about. It would help if we all bought horses that we could ride ourselves even at their worst and not be afraid and then ride through the behavioral problems that arise or get help earlier when the problems arise. JMO

AMEN.

MyReality
Nov. 13, 2007, 12:13 PM
I completely agree with Eclectic Horseman. I don't have many years of experience like she does, but I am proud to say I worked my horses 4/5 times a week on the same old ring, they never get "sour"... their attitudes actually improve as they mature. I am also not so proud to say, I did have a horse who "only liked" trail riding before... he bolted with me many times running towards the barn from the ring... but he would happily and fearlessly carry me for long solo hacks in the forest. Then he went on and off lame, 2 regular vets later took him to a leg specialist, horse has navicular. The specialist said it is not bad, he should be comfortable going straight lines, like trail riding (duh!). He was sold as a western trail horse.

dalpal
Nov. 13, 2007, 04:02 PM
Well said, Eclectic Horseman! Very good points.

After rereading my original post, I need to clarify something. I stated that what CC is doing won't hurt the horse. The "way too long" leadrope and disengaging the hindquarters method of the NH trainers is very counterproductive for a dressage horse. (or really anything, IMO) We need to be able to work a horse "in hand" for many aspects of dressage training. Piaffe training and lunging to name a couple.

It is so much easier (and sensible) to teach a horse to lead properly, beside (parallel to) his handler and "do" what his handler does. This sets the horse up to pay attention to the handler and follow his lead as opposed to just avoiding the handler. Makes so much more sense. Teaching a horse to always swing his rump away from you is really a bad idea, and a smart horse will soon use it as an evasion. And if you really think disengaging the HQ will give you control, think again. If a horse really wants to, he will get away from you.

I'm not anti cowboy or NH training, but when the NH guys start to "dabble" in dressage, it does worry me. They are tending to take a little bit here and there, then use the "fancy stuff" to impress people without a solid base of knowledge of training a horse beyond WTC.


You know, I think Chris would have taken this horse if it were a cutting horse, jumper, saddleseat, or dressage....really, when horses start to overpower their riders..what difference does it make as to what discipline the trainer rides/IF he/she knows how to fix the problem.

You guys crack me up.....I'm off to enjoy the show...;) Still don't know why this is even a debate??????????????? You either would like to see the show or you don't. No one is telling you what you need to do with YOUR horse..the things people find to debate...LOL!

grayarabpony
Nov. 13, 2007, 06:10 PM
I think the other half of the cowboy-type training equation is being left out here -- they MAY disengage the hindquarters to prevent the horse from becoming dangerous when bucking or rearing, but then they make those suckers GO. It's the only way to overcome rearing and bucking.

Penthilisea
Nov. 13, 2007, 06:15 PM
Well, I watched ep. 1 today.
I was neither impressed nor dismayed completely.
1. The horse looked more hock sore as he did more of those spins to the fence.
2. CC's idea of collection looks a wee bit r-lk-r-ish to me. Just focused on the head set, neck and mouth, LOTS of BTV.
3. But on the other hand those techniques really seemed to lessen the horses inclination to go up...

I won't weigh in iether way on the sour/spoiled issue, but this horse is CLEARLY a rearer and that is a issue to deal with.

dalpal
Nov. 13, 2007, 06:28 PM
Well, I watched ep. 1 today.
I was neither impressed nor dismayed completely.
1. The horse looked more hock sore as he did more of those spins to the fence.
2. CC's idea of collection looks a wee bit r-lk-r-ish to me. Just focused on the head set, neck and mouth, LOTS of BTV.
3. But on the other hand those techniques really seemed to lessen the horses inclination to go up...

I won't weigh in iether way on the sour/spoiled issue, but this horse is CLEARLY a rearer and that is a issue to deal with.

Uh, Oh, not the R word. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
I hear a train coming.

I haven't watched it yet, myself, been busy. So I won't form an opinion until I see it.....unless one does actually watch it, it's pretty silly to debate it. ;)

slc2
Nov. 13, 2007, 06:39 PM
But dalpal, it IS debatable, and yes, I would say it matters EXTREMELY who corrcts a given 'sour horse' and how he or she rides.

Because I believe in a completely different definition of 'sour' than you do. I don't feel a horse gets 'sour' because of some deep existential angst, a sort of equine questioning of the universe, why am i here, what is my purpose in life, should I be wearing this pink blanket. in fact, i think that's simply anthropomorphosizing. I don't think horses get over being 'sour' by jogging along the beach and feeling the wind in their mane, and getting back to their roots as eohippus, or anything like that.

I don't believe in 'sour' horses. I believe in good riding and bad riding, giving a horse an appropriate job, maintaining its training, and I believe in soundness and unsoundness.

The whole concept of 'sourness' is just wrong to me. It suggests that a horse has a kind of 'meter' and we can mistreat him - ride him badly and ignore physical problems and basic needs, til his 'sour meter' gets full up and then he gets officially 'sour' and we have to take him to the beach so he can get back in touch with his inner foal. Or be ridden by a cowboy, because everyone knows they smoke marlboros and are free, and when a COWBOY yerks on the reins it's OKAY! Because...because he is a COWBOY!

What nonsense - all of it. We have no business trying to decide when a horse is 'sour enough' to now justify giving him a natural, healthy schedule with turnout and time around other horses, and consistent fair training!

Horsey is misbehaving in the riding school? Why? Well, because he CAN. Because he's poorly ridden, and he gets into bad habits. Why does he shake his head? Well, either he's got something jammed up his nose or he's being ridden by someone who yanks on the reins and his mouth is too touchy for that particular job, the bars of his mouth aren't padded naturally, so he feels the bit too much. Horsey rears? Well either he's got a brain tumor or someone isn't making him go forward. Barring the tumor, someone gets on horsey and says giddyup horsey, and uses their legs a little more insistently, and voila, he stops rearing.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Nov. 13, 2007, 06:48 PM
slc2, I barely managed to swallow as I started to read your post, so no contents were spewed on the keyboard...I am going to have to talk to Ted tonight about getting in touch with his inner hippo (let's go aaaaalllll the way back in terms of past lives).

Sadly, he can't be desoured.. No beaches here in Missouri...and somehow, trying to ride along the banks of the Mississippi...naw, just won't do it.

sandyliz
Nov. 13, 2007, 07:00 PM
Having just watched 2nd episode, have to say that was not an easy 1/2 hour. I understand the horse has big problems, but most of what I saw was tension and fear while being blindsided by a swinging rope and yanked in the mouth. Going by this exhibition, Chris Cox seems to have the sensitivity of a fence post. I wonder if the horse would eventually start rearing or whatever when pointed in the direction of that round pen. Maybe I'll see things differently after #'s 3 and 4, but so far, "hey" no thanks.

dulawan
Nov. 13, 2007, 07:23 PM
uhhhh ... he rode the horse. The horse WENT (tried to rear) but gave it up. CC kept changing the subject by turning the horse off the fence, then turning his hindquarters, followed by collecting up, then letting go out, then giving to the bit (whether the owner would do it that way or not) then standing still to soak. The horse is used to changing the subject himself. The horse behaved, didn't fight. Throughout it all CC rewarded softness. Thats all CC is looking for. What could be wrong with that???!

Kyzteke
Nov. 13, 2007, 07:34 PM
ONCE AGAIN....I have nothing against PP's method...I have a problem with the fact that he can't keep his arrogant mouth shut. I would prefer to keep this thread about the show that I posted, not using it to defend PP....and no, I do not care for PP. ONCE AGAIN, I stated on the PP thread that the only two NH RFD people that I like are CC and Tommy Garland.

Dalpal -- did I refer to you or any of your comments in my response to Sithley? I don't think so. So what's the issue?

FancyFree
Nov. 13, 2007, 09:21 PM
Damn I wish I could see it! I'm no longer housesitting. Do you think it might be posted on YouTube?

Great post Eclectic Horseman. It made me look at the situation in a different light.

Picasso
Nov. 13, 2007, 09:28 PM
Chris has a very strong English riding back ground, dressage included. He isn't your typical "Cowboy" trainer in the least, and he is certainly isn't Clinton Anderson. He is also very, very careful to ensure pain isn't a catalyst for the horses behavior prior to working with them, and I'd be surprised if that wasn't mentioned somewhere in the show. For those that don't like or agree with his methods, that's ok. Chris doesn't expect you to fall at his feet (a la PP). He is NOT a natural horseman or whisper or what not. He is a talented horseman and his methods are successful, but that doesn't mean you have to blindly follow or even agree with all he says and does.

petitefilly
Nov. 13, 2007, 09:38 PM
No thanks! *rolling eyes*

I'm with you on this one. As TV cowboys go this Cox guy might be *ok*, but I hate the public seeing the name of dressage being dragged through the mud by cowboy magic. Maybe the horse does need an attitude adjustment, maybe he is a can short of a six pack, but why do we always have to see the cowboy mix into this. Many trainers of our own discipline could change this horse and show him the error of his ways.

People, stop the panic, and just find adequate training. It does exist. <sigh>

Now to reading the rest of the thread, I'm still sad over the whole idea of giving your horse to "cowboy of the week"!

War Admiral
Nov. 13, 2007, 10:29 PM
SLC, I wish I could put your whole post in my sig!! Excellent.

minnie
Nov. 13, 2007, 10:30 PM
I'm with you on this one. As TV cowboys go this Cox guy might be *ok*, but I hate the public seeing the name of dressage being dragged through the mud by cowboy magic. Maybe the horse does need an attitude adjustment, maybe he is a can short of a six pack, but why do we always have to see the cowboy mix into this. Many trainers of our own discipline could change this horse and show him the error of his ways.

People, stop the panic, and just find adequate training. It does exist. <sigh>

Now to reading the rest of the thread, I'm still sad over the whole idea of giving your horse to "cowboy of the week"!

If I had to hazard a guess, I'm sure the owner tried to find someone in her own discipline to fix this horse's problems before CC was contacted. Perhaps even several someones. I've never heard CC ever once denigrate another trainer or belittle one. He's not a smartass like Clinton Anderson and certainly doesn't dote on himself like PP. I've never seen him use some of the godawful gimmicks I've seen a couple others use. Spoiled/soured - personally believe these 2 terms can pretty much be used interchangeably. "Soured" is a little more diplomatic as it appears related to circumstances, whereas "spoiled" intimates that it was caused by handling (which may very well be but certainly wouldn't set well with the owner/trainer of the horse)

dressage72
Nov. 14, 2007, 12:04 AM
I actually didn't have too much of a problem with CC and what he was doing. The swinging the rope thing to get them to disengage the hindquarters always makes me scratch my head.......and the horse looked FREAKED!

What I did notice is how uncomfortable the horse got in his legs during the rolling process and the pressing 'round the wall over and over again. Started to buckle his front legs (even while standing) and began to show (to me) some evidence that he was uncomfortable in his hocks/stifles.

I thought he had very nice manners on the ground, which he said he worked on. Pretty horse!

The ONLY thing that got under my skin a bit was "now that I'm giving him a job to do, unlike him just going around collected all the time"

ummmmmmmmm........you know because being a grand prix dressage horse is less then a "JOB!"

Just funny!

Still gonna watch......interesting stuff! ;)

BabyGoose
Nov. 14, 2007, 12:08 AM
I thought the horse looked MORE relaxed after Chris rode for awhile. The first time he started to take up contact the horse was very tight through the neck and stiff. Towards the end he was much softer IMHO. Chris is asking him to give to the bit but he also asks the horse to move up into the bit when moving. I didn't see anything close to rolkur. And I have never heard him put down dressage or any other discipline. His thing is western riding and cutting, but he has done shows with other disciplines and never put them down or acted like his chosen discipline was better. I don't know where people are getting that he is dragging dressage through the mud.

dalpal
Nov. 14, 2007, 09:02 AM
I actually didn't have too much of a problem with CC and what he was doing. The swinging the rope thing to get them to disengage the hindquarters always makes me scratch my head.......and the horse looked FREAKED!

What I did notice is how uncomfortable the horse got in his legs during the rolling process and the pressing 'round the wall over and over again. Started to buckle his front legs (even while standing) and began to show (to me) some evidence that he was uncomfortable in his hocks/stifles.

I thought he had very nice manners on the ground, which he said he worked on. Pretty horse!

The ONLY thing that got under my skin a bit was "now that I'm giving him a job to do, unlike him just going around collected all the time"

ummmmmmmmm........you know because being a grand prix dressage horse is less then a "JOB!"

Just funny!

Still gonna watch......interesting stuff! ;)

Still haven't seen the show, since my DVR recoreds it at 1130pm...I'll watch it today when I get home.

I am sure that CC meant.....NOW/in the Present..I am giving him a job to do...NOT, Hey, this horse has never had a job to do in his life.

dalpal
Nov. 14, 2007, 09:06 AM
If I had to hazard a guess, I'm sure the owner tried to find someone in her own discipline to fix this horse's problems before CC was contacted. Perhaps even several someones. I've never heard CC ever once denigrate another trainer or belittle one. He's not a smartass like Clinton Anderson and certainly doesn't dote on himself like PP. I've never seen him use some of the godawful gimmicks I've seen a couple others use. Spoiled/soured - personally believe these 2 terms can pretty much be used interchangeably. "Soured" is a little more diplomatic as it appears related to circumstances, whereas "spoiled" intimates that it was caused by handling (which may very well be but certainly wouldn't set well with the owner/trainer of the horse)

Totally agree with this post.....Sorry folks, but not many dressage trainers want to deal with a rogue horse. And if you have one who will in your area, then you are one of the few. We have several dressage trainers in this area and I can think of "maybe" possibly two that would have taken this horse in....most would have recommended a cowboy that they like to deal with a rearer....Most do not want to jeopardize their health on someone else's rogue horse and I don't blame them. Heck, a hunter/jumper trainer broke my mare and even HE had a rogue gelding in his barn...and even HE sent the horse to a cowboy for a few months to get the rearing out of him.....he didn't want to deal with it.

So, to say that CC is dragging dressage through the mud is a tad on the extreme to say the least. Someone asked him to help them and he is.....I don't see him puffing up and telling us how wonderful he is the entire show....no, just trying to help this person and get her/his horse going again.

dalpal
Nov. 14, 2007, 09:07 AM
Chris has a very strong English riding back ground, dressage included. He isn't your typical "Cowboy" trainer in the least, and he is certainly isn't Clinton Anderson. He is also very, very careful to ensure pain isn't a catalyst for the horses behavior prior to working with them, and I'd be surprised if that wasn't mentioned somewhere in the show. For those that don't like or agree with his methods, that's ok. Chris doesn't expect you to fall at his feet (a la PP). He is NOT a natural horseman or whisper or what not. He is a talented horseman and his methods are successful, but that doesn't mean you have to blindly follow or even agree with all he says and does.

Well stated!

dalpal
Nov. 14, 2007, 09:08 AM
Dalpal -- did I refer to you or any of your comments in my response to Sithley? I don't think so. So what's the issue?

My dear, it's an open forum....anyone can respond to anyone's comments...if you want to keep it private, then send a PM. ;)

dalpal
Nov. 14, 2007, 09:11 AM
But dalpal, it IS debatable, and yes, I would say it matters EXTREMELY who corrcts a given 'sour horse' and how he or she rides.

Because I believe in a completely different definition of 'sour' than you do. I don't feel a horse gets 'sour' because of some deep existential angst, a sort of equine questioning of the universe, why am i here, what is my purpose in life, should I be wearing this pink blanket. in fact, i think that's simply anthropomorphosizing. I don't think horses get over being 'sour' by jogging along the beach and feeling the wind in their mane, and getting back to their roots as eohippus, or anything like that.

I don't believe in 'sour' horses. I believe in good riding and bad riding, giving a horse an appropriate job, maintaining its training, and I believe in soundness and unsoundness.

The whole concept of 'sourness' is just wrong to me. It suggests that a horse has a kind of 'meter' and we can mistreat him - ride him badly and ignore physical problems and basic needs, til his 'sour meter' gets full up and then he gets officially 'sour' and we have to take him to the beach so he can get back in touch with his inner foal. Or be ridden by a cowboy, because everyone knows they smoke marlboros and are free, and when a COWBOY yerks on the reins it's OKAY! Because...because he is a COWBOY!

What nonsense - all of it. We have no business trying to decide when a horse is 'sour enough' to now justify giving him a natural, healthy schedule with turnout and time around other horses, and consistent fair training!

Horsey is misbehaving in the riding school? Why? Well, because he CAN. Because he's poorly ridden, and he gets into bad habits. Why does he shake his head? Well, either he's got something jammed up his nose or he's being ridden by someone who yanks on the reins and his mouth is too touchy for that particular job, the bars of his mouth aren't padded naturally, so he feels the bit too much. Horsey rears? Well either he's got a brain tumor or someone isn't making him go forward. Barring the tumor, someone gets on horsey and says giddyup horsey, and uses their legs a little more insistently, and voila, he stops rearing.

It's hard to debate something that you haven't seen. The post that referred to him as a rollkuring cowboy was funny in my opinion....but at least that person saw the episode..so that was their take on it.

But most of you who are going on and on about "the damn cowboy and his damn cowboy methods" haven't seen it at all...so I don't get how you can debate something you can't see for yourself...that's my point. ;)

slc2
Nov. 14, 2007, 09:59 AM
actually i watched part of that show, and i actually USUALLY watch his show anyway. if i'm going to watch any of those TV Trainers, it's going to be him. at least he isn't as ridiculous as Patco.

and unfortunately for you, i still have exactly the same feeling about it, so the suggestion that i'd agree with you if i watched more of it is not going to work with me. i thought it was silly, and i thought he was better than to pull a dumb stunt like that, except that people swallow it so easily, who can really blame him. everyone's got to make a living.....some are just willing to bend lower than others...oh, hell, I lost my Carrot Stick, I'll have to drive back home and get it before i go to the barn.

NoDQhere
Nov. 14, 2007, 10:37 AM
Well, I have been watching this show and I agree with SLC 110% :)

First off, this isn't even a bad horse CC is working with. The horse certainly wasn't atrocious on the ground. And he certainly wasn't a dangerous rearer. He was a smart rearer. He reared enough to scare his rider, because he learned that got him out of work.

What CC is asking of the horse is a whole lot less than the amount of work in dressage. This work is well within the horse's comfort zone. The important thing CC did is that he immediately got after him for even thinking about rearing. Had his rider done that, the first time it happened, there would be no TV show :lol:

What makes this Cowboy / Dressage thing debatable is that Cowboy training is all about taking the power and FORWARD away from the horse so they CAN'T misbehave and Dressage is all about developing and controling the power, forward, over the back and between the seat, legs and bridle.

I think CC will break this horse from rearing because he is a good horseman. But if the horse is going to return to the Dressage arena again, he will have to be straight, have his hindquarters engaged and be forward between seat, legs and bridle.

BTW, sticking a horse with your spurs, at the girth, whilst sitting on your pockets isn't using your legs ;) CC may have an english background but he certainly doesn't have an english seat.

slc2
Nov. 14, 2007, 11:22 AM
thanks nodqhere, your check is in the mail :lol:

Sandy M
Nov. 14, 2007, 12:08 PM
Wow. Just wow. Can't believe it, but in this instance, I have to pretty much agree with slc. (and nodq, of course). And I know PLENTY of well-thought of dressage riders who would be happy to tackle a horse like this. Of course, if the owner had worked with one of those trainers, the problem would never have arisen..........It doesn't take a cowboy to know how to deal with a horse that begins to use rearing as an evasion.

NoDQhere
Nov. 14, 2007, 02:07 PM
Wow. Just wow. Can't believe it, but in this instance, I have to pretty much agree with slc. (and nodq, of course). And I know PLENTY of well-thought of dressage riders who would be happy to tackle a horse like this. Of course, if the owner had worked with one of those trainers, the problem would never have arisen..........It doesn't take a cowboy to know how to deal with a horse that begins to use rearing as an evasion.

No kidding :lol: I know Dressage riders who would kill to have this "rogue" in their barn! What a nice horse. Does anybody know who he is or what his breeding is?

dalpal
Nov. 14, 2007, 03:11 PM
actually i watched part of that show, and i actually USUALLY watch his show anyway. if i'm going to watch any of those TV Trainers, it's going to be him. at least he isn't as ridiculous as Patco.

and unfortunately for you, i still have exactly the same feeling about it, so the suggestion that i'd agree with you if i watched more of it is not going to work with me. i thought it was silly, and i thought he was better than to pull a dumb stunt like that, except that people swallow it so easily, who can really blame him. everyone's got to make a living.....some are just willing to bend lower than others...oh, hell, I lost my Carrot Stick, I'll have to drive back home and get it before i go to the barn.


Didn't say you have to agree with me slc...dont' really care. :lol:;)
But kudos to you for actually watching....my beef is with the posters who are crucifying without even watching.

I like CC, always will and I'm just so darn impressed that I actually got a thread going that has this many pages. WOW! :lol::lol::lol:

Eclectic Horseman
Nov. 14, 2007, 03:30 PM
Didn't say you have to agree with me slc...dont' really care. :lol:;)
But kudos to you for actually watching....my beef is with the posters who are crucifying without even watching.

I like CC, always will and I'm just so darn impressed that I actually got a thread going that has this many pages. WOW! :lol::lol::lol:


Well, dalpal, i sincerely hope that you learned something in all of these pages. Instead of coming to a dressage board and urging people to watch this telequestrian cowboy NH stuff, you would do well to study some dressage. Your posts show a real fundamental ignorance of what dressage training is all about. :no: Believe me, if you had some real knowledge of dressage, you would not be so impressed by these TV trainers.:dead:
EH

Bluey
Nov. 14, 2007, 03:54 PM
Well, dalpal, i sincerely hope that you learned something in all of these pages. Instead of coming to a dressage board and urging people to watch this telequestrian cowboy NH stuff, you would do well to study some dressage. Your posts show a real fundamental ignorance of what dressage training is all about. :no: Believe me, if you had some real knowledge of dressage, you would not be so impressed by these TV trainers.:dead:
EH

In many disciplines you may get by with a horse working without proper selfcarriage.
In some, like dressage and cutting, you just can't really do it and do it well, unless you change the rules.;)

A horse rubbernecking around, the connection from his hind feet, over and under his middle and into his front end cut at the neck and poll by regularly disengaging it can't be in front of your leg properly, consistently and more important effortlessly, in true self carriage.

Those riders that keep disconnecting their horses are rarely training and competing where a horse has to truly use themselves properly.
It is a headache to get one of those horses trained like that to retrain and questionable if, once trained correctly, unless in knowledgeable hands, they may not again revert to those disconnecting evasions.

JSwan
Nov. 14, 2007, 04:03 PM
not the ultimate GOAL for upper level dressage riders and trainers.


I've got no dog in this fight, and I didn't even watch the silly show. But I think that too often people excuse poor behavior and manners in horses using the excuse that the horse is upper level, or a former racehorse, or somehow implying that with great talent, one accepts that the horse is going to be an ass to handle on the ground.

I take exception to that. Big league horses most certainly may have an equally big league temperament, but there is no excuse for not being well mannered. If a horse has figured out how to scare his rider with rearing - that's hardly just an "upper level" problem. Actually - I'd require an upper level horse to have impeccable - and I mean impeccable stable manners. Fiery he/she can be - but not to the point the rider is no longer in charge.

I'm not sure if that's what you were saying in your post or not. Any fit horse is going to be full of vim and vigor - the more fit, the more vinegar they seem to have. But no matter how fit the horse is - he must mind his manners. Dressage horses included.

I do not ask my horses to be "quiet or docile", nor do I want them to be. But I do require them to have manners. Those manners aren't taught by great dressage masters - they're taught and fixed on the ground - usually by someone who is more rough around the edges than the dear departed Klimke.

If your horse won't load, the fact that his piaffe will make the judges weep with joy will go completely unnoticed. In that respect, I think there is a place in the horse world for "problem solvers". Even for dressage horses.;)

Eclectic Horseman
Nov. 14, 2007, 04:20 PM
I've got no dog in this fight, and I didn't even watch the silly show. But I think that too often people excuse poor behavior and manners in horses using the excuse that the horse is upper level, or a former racehorse, or somehow implying that with great talent, one accepts that the horse is going to be an ass to handle on the ground.

I take exception to that. Big league horses most certainly may have an equally big league temperament, but there is no excuse for not being well mannered. If a horse has figured out how to scare his rider with rearing - that's hardly just an "upper level" problem. Actually - I'd require an upper level horse to have impeccable - and I mean impeccable stable manners. Fiery he/she can be - but not to the point the rider is no longer in charge.

I'm not sure if that's what you were saying in your post or not. Any fit horse is going to be full of vim and vigor - the more fit, the more vinegar they seem to have. But no matter how fit the horse is - he must mind his manners. Dressage horses included.

I do not ask my horses to be "quiet or docile", nor do I want them to be. But I do require them to have manners. Those manners aren't taught by great dressage masters - they're taught and fixed on the ground - usually by someone who is more rough around the edges than the dear departed Klimke.

If your horse won't load, the fact that his piaffe will make the judges weep with joy will go completely unnoticed. In that respect, I think there is a place in the horse world for "problem solvers". Even for dressage horses.;)

No, it wasn't what I was saying. What I was saying is that telequestrian devotees seem to think that a horse's being dead broke to the point that it is suitable for a beginner rider is the ultimate goal of training. I think that you would agree that good ground and barn manners is the basics of training, not the be all and end all of dressage training.

In my view, most of the problem horses in the world are not caused by trainers. Most of the problem horses are created by owners and riders who are overmounted, and uneducated in basic horsemanship. I see many, many adult beginners or reriders who go out and buy a 4 or 5 year old green horse and the next thing you know the horse is problem. A problem that is usually not a problem at all for a reasonably competent trainer...

So my point was not to excuse bad mannered horses at all. And if your point is that dressage TRAINERS create most bad mannered horses, then I disagree with you completely. That is not my experience.

Sithly
Nov. 14, 2007, 04:31 PM
Well said, J Swan. That's exactly how I feel about it.

I always try to stay out of these threads, but I can never seem to resist, even though I find them exasperating. It's always people from one discipline criticizing another discipline that they don't fully understand -- on both sides of the argument.

Dressage Rider: I hate NH. All they do is run their horses to exhaustion in round pens and poke them with carrot sticks.

NH person: I hate dressage. All dressage riders do is go in circles; they never actually DO anything with their horses.

These two statements are EQUALLY STUPID. You don't have to like either discipline to realize that.

NOMIOMI1
Nov. 14, 2007, 04:33 PM
I've got no dog in this fight, and I didn't even watch the silly show. But I think that too often people excuse poor behavior and manners in horses using the excuse that the horse is upper level, or a former racehorse, or somehow implying that with great talent, one accepts that the horse is going to be an ass to handle on the ground.

I take exception to that. Big league horses most certainly may have an equally big league temperament, but there is no excuse for not being well mannered. If a horse has figured out how to scare his rider with rearing - that's hardly just an "upper level" problem. Actually - I'd require an upper level horse to have impeccable - and I mean impeccable stable manners. Fiery he/she can be - but not to the point the rider is no longer in charge.

I'm not sure if that's what you were saying in your post or not. Any fit horse is going to be full of vim and vigor - the more fit, the more vinegar they seem to have. But no matter how fit the horse is - he must mind his manners. Dressage horses included.

I do not ask my horses to be "quiet or docile", nor do I want them to be. But I do require them to have manners. Those manners aren't taught by great dressage masters - they're taught and fixed on the ground - usually by someone who is more rough around the edges than the dear departed Klimke.

If your horse won't load, the fact that his piaffe will make the judges weep with joy will go completely unnoticed. In that respect, I think there is a place in the horse world for "problem solvers". Even for dressage horses.;)


This kind of reminds me of the people who wouldnt buy my Hunter mare because she was a cribber, a lazy loader, and was pushy on the ground (not for lack of trying and training). My mare went on to do very well with another home while they went on and bought gelding (that could load) that isnt as fancy and wouldnt stand a chance against the red headed mare. We find brilliance in the oddest places and a fiery horse seems to be one of them. Squash what you will (shrug).

Pely
Nov. 14, 2007, 04:38 PM
I had to see what all the fuss is about, so I watched part one yesterday. That poor horse. Back and forth on the ground, with no rhythm or reason, just jerk him back and forth until the horse is saying "what the f is this human all about". There is no real learning going on, although the horse becomes attentive because whenever he starts to relax, he gets jerked the other direction.

This dis-engaging the haunches bs, again, what the f is that suppose to teach? Granted, that is very useful on a running bucking very naughty horse, but did you see the strain on that poor horses back and hocks? By the end, the horse had to stand camped out behind because he was hurting so much.

And all these years I have been concerned with engaging my FEI horses hind legs. hmmm, guess I was wrong. I should have been just jerking them around in circles.

Bend him in the ribs??? not. by overflexing to the side, CC was teaching the horse to kink in the base of the neck, fall out the outer shoulder, and spin the haunch away from the direction of bend. Sure the horse probably felt supple, to a cowboy, or uneducated observer, but the end result is entirely false, and goes to the opposite of correct classical training.

And the rollbacks against the fence, well they aren't rollbacks, they are just spinning the horse around the middle, and stressing the hocks and back. Every time the horse relaxed and gave some nice steps, he got jerked around the other way. So much for relaxation on the training scale.

I can certainly see using these techniques the split second that the horse stiffens and threatens, but CC just kept at it, even when the horse was at his most submissive and relaxed. Makes no sense to punish when the horse is offering the good stuff.

And then there is the "softening" to the bit. If a dressage trainer held his reins that short, and used that much roweled spur, they would be tarred and feathered. When the horse did soften and yield, it was by breaking at the 3/4 vertebrae because he didn't have any choice with his neck being held that short.

And CC? his ignorance kept showing. "this horse has to be re-trained using a system". I almost puked over that one, Dressage is the most proven system of training that has ever been in existance. groan and moan.

He isn't any different than the others, all smoke and mirrors

JSwan
Nov. 14, 2007, 04:46 PM
So my point was not to excuse bad mannered horses at all. And if your point is that dressage TRAINERS create most bad mannered horses, then I disagree with you completely. That is not my experience.


I figured as much but I wasn't sure. Hence my post. I didn't mean to imply dressage trainers create bad mannered horses, either. That has not been my experience, either.

Many years ago I was having real trouble getting one of my horses to load. He was a total pig about it. I asked my dressage instructor if he had any advice and he replied, "I have no idea. I have the same trouble myself".

Heck - at least he was honest about it. :winkgrin:


Pely - what did he mean by "retrain"? I was under the impression this horse was a behavior problem - not going to this guy for tuning up his one-tempis. Did the guy mean reestablishing some basic ground manners? I hope that's all he meant.

Otherwise it's kind of like going to a proctologist for a nosejob. I agree - dressage (whatever each discipline may call it) is the gold standard.

Sithly
Nov. 14, 2007, 04:57 PM
No, it wasn't what I was saying. What I was saying is that telequestrian devotees seem to think that a horse's being dead broke to the point that it is suitable for a beginner rider is the ultimate goal of training.

That's not entirely true. As far as the one-hour television programs are concerned, yes. But if you actually train with one of these types of trainers for a length of time, you will find that they encourage you to take their basics and APPLY them to your chosen discipline. NH is not a discipline unto itself. I know that doesn't come across very well on most of the TV shows, but then again, the finer points of dressage don't come across well on TV shows, either. ;)

Also, beginners need to learn the basics before they can begin to contemplate advanced training. NH is a great tool for that because it breaks things down into simple, logical increments. Obviously, any good trainer in any discpline could do this, but for some reason, the basics seem to be lacking in many cases. I've seen some incredible riders who had holes in their basic understanding of horse behavior. If they can get some insight through another discipline, more power to 'em.

It's amazing how much it can help to go back to basics every once in a while, even if you already know it all.

Sithly
Nov. 14, 2007, 04:59 PM
This kind of reminds me of the people who wouldnt buy my Hunter mare because she was a cribber, a lazy loader, and was pushy on the ground (not for lack of trying and training). My mare went on to do very well with another home while they went on and bought gelding (that could load) that isnt as fancy and wouldnt stand a chance against the red headed mare. We find brilliance in the oddest places and a fiery horse seems to be one of them. Squash what you will (shrug).

Teaching your horse manners would have broken her spirit, right?

:lol::lol::lol:

Pely
Nov. 14, 2007, 04:59 PM
CC stated that the horse needed to be "given a job", and that dressage was not a training system, and the horse needed to be trained to do something other than go around collected all the time.

CC spent a lot of time in the saddle, the majority of the show, doing what I detailed above, and gave the distinct impression that he felt the horse wasn't trained, because it didn't want to do the fake rollbacks and spin around the middle with the haunches flinging out, and falling onto the outside shoulder ( that IS the cowboy version of bend). They ALL do it. They wouldn't have a clue what a correctly bent, balanced horse moving with engagement and impulsion would feel like.

NOMIOMI1
Nov. 14, 2007, 05:04 PM
Teaching your horse manners would have broken her spirit, right?

:lol::lol::lol:


No, but shutting her down with a million rollbacks might have made her courses less alert looking.

Lawn Ornament
Nov. 14, 2007, 05:07 PM
Did anyone notice that the horse only rears when he's asked to bend right?

fiona
Nov. 14, 2007, 05:09 PM
Well put Pely - your previous post -sadly no one seems to be listening!


Also, beginners need to learn the basics before they can begin to contemplate advanced training. NH is a great tool for that because it breaks things down into simple, logical increments. Obviously, any good trainer in any discpline could do this, but for some reason, the basics seem to be lacking in many cases.

It's also amazing how many people coming to dressage think they know the "basics" because they've learnt them from some ill educated cowboy trainers along the way and you spend years unpicking the damage, going back to the beginning and starting again. The German scales of training ARE the basics for crying out loud!
Pelys description of NH take on that is horrifying - way off our mark and utterly illogical.

grayarabpony
Nov. 14, 2007, 05:11 PM
I saw the first show Sun., and noticed that he was reluctant to move his haunches over to the right, or anyway in one direction, which is a red flag.

I also had the thought that "What is the horse supposed to take from this?"

I have to say that I think my horse would probably have gotten sick of it and dragged him across the arena. My pony too. :lol:

Sithly
Nov. 14, 2007, 05:11 PM
No, but shutting her down with a million rollbacks might have made her courses less alert looking.

You were talking about loading and ground manners.

I don't disagree about the rollbacks, though. There's a time and a place for that sort of thing, but I don't like repetitive drilling, regardless of discipline.

JSwan
Nov. 14, 2007, 05:13 PM
CC stated that the horse needed to be "given a job", and that dressage was not a training system, and the horse needed to be trained to do something other than go around collected all the time.
.

Well, that's just plain odd. This is where NH and I go in very separate, and distinct, directions.

The horse's job is to be a dressage horse. The horse has a job. If the horse was a "soured reining horse", one wonders what job the guy would have suggested.........

NH really is starting to sound like it's own mystical discipline. To what end I don't know) Used to be that a horse did its job and earned its living, and any stuff now termed "NH" was really just, clip, tie, load, stand for vet, farrier, respect space, not be a jerk under saddle, etc.

Okay - I think I got it now. Thanks, Pely. I may still tune in if I remember to - just to see for myself. But if his basic premise is that dressage is bad joo joo - well - I don't have any use for that.

NOMIOMI1
Nov. 14, 2007, 05:21 PM
You were talking about loading and ground manners.

I don't disagree about the rollbacks, though. There's a time and a place for that sort of thing, but I don't like repetitive drilling, regardless of discipline.


We actually had a NH person work with her and it did absolutely no good. She wasnt mean just pushy and excitable on the ground (mind you she sat until she was 6 yrs). The NH guy tried to ride her with some big spurs and while doing lead changes she threw him on his head when he stuck her for being lazy. I never had a problem with her changes after that though but I really didnt like watching that poor guy fly off.

Sithly
Nov. 14, 2007, 05:22 PM
It's also amazing how many people coming to dressage think they know the "basics" because they've learnt them from some ill educated cowboy trainers along the way and you spend years unpicking the damage, going back to the beginning and starting again. The German scales of training ARE the basics for crying out loud!
Pelys description of NH take on that is horrifying - way off our mark and utterly illogical.

My fault for not clarifying, but when I talk about basics, I'm talking more about theory than methods. All horses learn the same. If you truly understand how a horse learns, you can apply that to any discipline. OTOH, you can also go through the motions and apply the methods of any discipline without understanding how a horse learns.

I'm not talking about disengaging the hindquarters or anything else like that. Those are methods, and they're certainly not universal. I've worked with a "NH" type trainer for years, and he's never once had me disengage a horse's hindquarters.

Bluey
Nov. 14, 2007, 05:31 PM
---"I'm not talking about disengaging the hindquarters or anything else like that. Those are methods, and they're certainly not universal. I've worked with a "NH" type trainer for years, and he's never once had me disengage a horse's hindquarters."---

He must not have been a real NH trainer then, not watched enough RFD-TV.;)
Even Ray Hunt did that 30+ years ago, just not as often and exaggerated as those today seem to do it and most of the NH clinicians say they learned it from him.:yes:

Sithly
Nov. 14, 2007, 05:34 PM
NH really is starting to sound like it's own mystical discipline.

It's really not, I swear. But the kool-aid is really good! (Just kidding. ;) )

The problem with NH is that it's often trying to do two jobs at once. 1) is to train the horse, and 2) is to train the person. The horses catch on right away, but the people take years. Some people know just enough about it to be dangerous, and they give the rest a bad name. The BNTs don't help, either, because those people are their bread and butter.

Anyway, no, NH is not a discipline. When my barn starts a horse, the "pure" NH portion of the training lasts about a week. After that, those basics are applied to whatever job the horse is intended for, whether that be reining, dressage, or just trail riding.

Sithly
Nov. 14, 2007, 05:45 PM
He must not have been a real NH trainer then, not watched enough RFD-TV.;)

LOL. That must be why I like him so much. :D

Honestly, sometimes I wonder why I spend so much time defending NH trainers whose methods I don't use and whose personalities bug me. I guess it's because I don't want the baby to get thrown out with the bath water.

Bluey
Nov. 14, 2007, 06:00 PM
LOL. That must be why I like him so much. :D

Honestly, sometimes I wonder why I spend so much time defending NH trainers whose methods I don't use and whose personalities bug me. I guess it's because I don't want the baby to get thrown out with the bath water.

Me too.:yes:

petitefilly
Nov. 14, 2007, 06:12 PM
I had to see what all the fuss is about, so I watched part one yesterday. That poor horse.

And then there is the "softening" to the bit. If a dressage trainer held his reins that short, and used that much roweled spur, they would be tarred and feathered. When the horse did soften and yield, it was by breaking at the 3/4 vertebrae because he didn't have any choice with his neck being held that short.

And CC? his ignorance kept showing. "this horse has to be re-trained using a system". I almost puked over that one, Dressage is the most proven system of training that has ever been in existance. groan and moan.

He isn't any different than the others, all smoke and mirrors

Oh, my, oh, my. I was afraid, very afraid. This confirms my suspicions. CC is just another spin 'em, and jerk 'em guy? I ask you? WHY? Why do we let people do this?

The horse needs a new start. He needs to redo his basic A_B_Cs. Lunge him, long line him, work him as a youngster for a month, then decide what to do with his problem. After a month of long lining most horses will start to *get* that work is happening and do understand the error of their ways. Getting right up on a horse and deciding to make it sore with overtaxing his limbs and mind does not do the trick. As soon as this horse has a person riding him who cannot whip his neck side to side, and cannot jerk him in short circles the horse will return to his unwanted behavior. He has to work without pressure, in real work to learn proper behavior and to understand gradual training. Oh well, to each his own. YMMV!!! :)

tangledweb
Nov. 14, 2007, 06:12 PM
If I remember correctly, Chris does have some hunter/jumper background from Australia.

Unlikely seeing as it is an American sport. It is possible that he competed in hunter/jumpers, but it was not in Australia.

dalpal
Nov. 14, 2007, 06:31 PM
Not joining in all the controversy;)
But to all who watched this week....did they show episode 1..ground work again? My DVR did not record it and it says that Sunday, Nov. 18 is a replay of episode 1. Bummer if I missed the second episode.

I think some of you guys need to go ride your ponies and release all the stress..LOL!

Sandy M
Nov. 14, 2007, 06:40 PM
Excuse me. He says "Dressage is not a training system..." Did I MISS something some where down the years??!?!?!? WTF???? Someone really should let all those Europeans and the SRS know that they don't have a training system, let alone people like Hilda, Debbie McDonald, et al. And by all means tell D'Endrody and Seunig and Watjen and DeCarpentry and Podhajsky that they have/had no training system. I say again, WTF????

dalpal
Nov. 14, 2007, 06:57 PM
Eh, I think you guys are reading too much into what he said....I think he meant...He needs to be reworked using a system...Meaning, I am reworking this horse with this particular system/my system/my game plan for this scenerio.....Not....dressage is not a training system.

Okay, before you guys get up in arms with him retraining the horse...one must ask..HOW DID THE HORSE GET TO THIS POINT IN THE FIRST PLACE? I mean, really, if you want to argue, why not argue this point. There is a reason that CC was called in, he didn't just drive by one day and said..Oh pretty big warmblood, I think I'll stop in and see if I can retrain him with MY system.

The horse has been in dressage probably all of his life (he is grand prix), at some point SOMETHING broke down or there were holes from the get go. Just something to consider before burning CC at the stake for putting the horse on his show. ;)

chancellor2
Nov. 15, 2007, 07:48 AM
I watched episode 2 last night. I was happy to see that he got the horse through the rearing. However, I was unhappy to see the "softening" that he wanted was the horse broken at the third vertebrae. I'd love to know what the horse's owner thought about that. Then again, if they train with Anky, I guess it is okay.

grayarabpony
Nov. 15, 2007, 08:52 AM
I watched episode 2 last night. I was happy to see that he got the horse through the rearing. However, I was unhappy to see the "softening" that he wanted was the horse broken at the third vertebrae. I'd love to know what the horse's owner thought about that. Then again, if they train with Anky, I guess it is okay.

:lol:

Eclectic Horseman
Nov. 15, 2007, 08:58 AM
:rolleyes:
Eh, I think you guys are reading too much into what he said....I think he meant...He needs to be reworked using a system...Meaning, I am reworking this horse with this particular system/my system/my game plan for this scenerio.....Not....dressage is not a training system.

Okay, before you guys get up in arms with him retraining the horse...one must ask..HOW DID THE HORSE GET TO THIS POINT IN THE FIRST PLACE? I mean, really, if you want to argue, why not argue this point. There is a reason that CC was called in, he didn't just drive by one day and said..Oh pretty big warmblood, I think I'll stop in and see if I can retrain him with MY system.

The horse has been in dressage probably all of his life (he is grand prix), at some point SOMETHING broke down or there were holes from the get go. Just something to consider before burning CC at the stake for putting the horse on his show. ;)

I'll give you my best guess. The horse was trained to Grand Prix, and was sold to some adult beginner with too much money and too little experience. The horse tested and quickly figured out what he could get away with. The owner didn't want to go to a dressage trainer to work out the problems because the dressage trainers didn't tell her what she wanted to hear. They undoubtedly told her that she was overmounted, and needed to start with an old school horse--not a GP horse. Told her that it would take years and years of hard work to learn to ride this horse, if ever.

So the owner shops around until she finds someone that will tell her what she wants to hear, i.e., that the horse has "holes" his training or that the horse is "soured" by doing so much dressage, etc. This is much more acceptable to her--to blame the horse or anything other than admit that it is her fault and that there is no quick fix.

That's what usually happens. Just something FOR YOU to consider before you drink the cool aid. :rolleyes:

dalpal
Nov. 15, 2007, 09:30 AM
:rolleyes:

I'll give you my best guess. The horse was trained to Grand Prix, and was sold to some adult beginner with too much money and too little experience. The horse tested and quickly figured out what he could get away with. The owner didn't want to go to a dressage trainer to work out the problems because the dressage trainers didn't tell her what she wanted to hear. They undoubtedly told her that she was overmounted, and needed to start with an old school horse--not a GP horse. Told her that it would take years and years of hard work to learn to ride this horse, if ever.

So the owner shops around until she finds someone that will tell her what she wants to hear, i.e., that the horse has "holes" his training or that the horse is "soured" by doing so much dressage, etc. This is much more acceptable to her--to blame the horse or anything other than admit that it is her fault and that there is no quick fix.

That's what usually happens. Just something FOR YOU to consider before you drink the cool aid. :rolleyes:

awwww, and I was going to totally agree with your post until you insulted me with the coolaid remark. ;)

My point IS..the horse needs to be fixed and perhaps there's no FEI rider in town who is willing to help her. I don't think watching CC makes me a cool aid drinker ;) I enjoy watching my RFD programs very much, heck, it's the reason I agreed to switch to satellite. :yes:

I try very hard to keep an open mind and not judge something that I really know nothing about....the only reason I slam PP is because he can't keep his arrogant mouth shut, I don't have a problem with his demonstrations on TV. I love dressage, enjoy riding dressage...but at the same time, I'm not going to condemn someone because their method isn't the same as a dressage persons. I like to be able to make my own choices on who and what I take in as helpful/useful information. And just because I watch CC doesn't mean I'm going to run out and start disengaging my horse's rearend. :lol: I enjoy watching the show, and quite frankly, there could be a time in my life that perhaps something I've seen on that show could possibly come in handy, maybe not...but I'm not going to gasp and cringe just because it's a cowboy working with a GP Dressage Horse. ;)

I guess for all who PM'd me for a copy of the show....My DVR has apparently skipped the Part 2 unless it reshows this Sunday. I'll let you know.

NoDQhere
Nov. 15, 2007, 10:21 AM
:rolleyes:

I'll give you my best guess. The horse was trained to Grand Prix, and was sold to some adult beginner with too much money and too little experience. The horse tested and quickly figured out what he could get away with. The owner didn't want to go to a dressage trainer to work out the problems because the dressage trainers didn't tell her what she wanted to hear. They undoubtedly told her that she was overmounted, and needed to start with an old school horse--not a GP horse. Told her that it would take years and years of hard work to learn to ride this horse, if ever.

So the owner shops around until she finds someone that will tell her what she wants to hear, i.e., that the horse has "holes" his training or that the horse is "soured" by doing so much dressage, etc. This is much more acceptable to her--to blame the horse or anything other than admit that it is her fault and that there is no quick fix.

That's what usually happens. Just something FOR YOU to consider before you drink the cool aid. :rolleyes:

Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner :lol: You have SO hit the nail on the head, give yourself a pat on the back. :yes:

NOMIOMI1
Nov. 15, 2007, 10:24 AM
Dressage did not teach the horse to rear. Bad riding did.

CC will effectively shut the horse down. The rider will be able ride the horse easier with it shut down. The scores will go down. Rider will not have learned to ride any better. Cycle will begin again.

jackalini
Nov. 15, 2007, 10:27 AM
He got on the horse. It wasn't horrible, though I did laugh at him trying to get on. Been there, used to ride a 17.2H beastie.

It wasn't horrible, it wasn't great. Parts were hard to watch, but the horse didn't seem to freak out (so either good for CC or good for the horse, depending on how you look at it). The horse was NOT rearing by the end though, and didn't seem any more winded than my horse does after a heavy school - it was most definitely not exhausted.

Having one of my own that has tried rearing as an evasion in the past, I have used many similar techniques as he did - the tight quick circle, turning into the fence, etc - not with the same "gusto" as he did, but I didn't need to. All I'm saying is that those specific exercises DO help with a rearer to refocus the brain and make it not fun to rear.

At this point in the series, I can't say YAY or NAY on it. It was interesting. That's all I have.

Eclectic Horseman
Nov. 15, 2007, 10:42 AM
Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner :lol: You have SO hit the nail on the head, give yourself a pat on the back. :yes:


One of the only advantages of old age. ;)

Sandy M
Nov. 15, 2007, 11:04 AM
My point IS..the horse needs to be fixed and perhaps there's no FEI rider in town who is willing to help her. I don't think watching CC makes me a cool aid drinker ;) I enjoy watching my RFD programs very much, heck, it's the reason I agreed to switch to satellite. :yes:



And presumeably no lower level dressage trainer, no hunter jumper trainer and no eventing trainer? It hardly takes a FEI level trainer to re-school a horse that is "misbehaving." As was said before, a knowledgeable trainer in just about ANY discipline knows how to squelch those sorts of evasions without resorting to all of the somewhat rough handling that has been described on this program.

monstrpony
Nov. 15, 2007, 11:08 AM
CC will effectively shut the horse down. The rider will be able ride the horse easier with it shut down.

:confused::confused:

grayarabpony
Nov. 15, 2007, 11:24 AM
My point IS..the horse needs to be fixed and perhaps there's no FEI rider in town who is willing to help her.

And that is the unfortunate reality that many of us face. Doesn't even have to be a FEI rider.

Melissa.Van Doren
Nov. 15, 2007, 11:39 AM
1. Why assume no other trainer would take on this horse? People do just choose a trainer based on his/her own merits, without being turned down by others first.

2. If the current owner of the horse is the woman shown riding him in the clips, she certainly doesn't look like she's lacking in skills.

3. Do any of you really believe a Grand Prix dressage horse's training can truly be ruined or "undone" by four sessions of the type of work we're watching?

4. Anyone who rides competently knows you can often feel things that aren't readily seen, especially by the casual observer. When CC is remarking the horse isn't "soft" or "giving" yet and so isn't letting up on an exercise, see the first sentence in this paragraph.

5. I'm not sold on the whole "disengage the haunches" and overflex thing as a "must" for every training program, but I do know if I'm going to get on a 17.2+h behemoth with big evasion issues, I want to be able to get him to do something with his feet and neck other than use them against me. For those of you who object to what CC is doing - what would be your plan for this horse?

Bluey
Nov. 15, 2007, 11:41 AM
awwww, and I was going to totally agree with your post until you insulted me with the coolaid remark. ;)

My point IS..the horse needs to be fixed and perhaps there's no FEI rider in town who is willing to help her. I don't think watching CC makes me a cool aid drinker ;) I enjoy watching my RFD programs very much, heck, it's the reason I agreed to switch to satellite. :yes:

I try very hard to keep an open mind and not judge something that I really know nothing about....the only reason I slam PP is because he can't keep his arrogant mouth shut, I don't have a problem with his demonstrations on TV. I love dressage, enjoy riding dressage...but at the same time, I'm not going to condemn someone because their method isn't the same as a dressage persons. I like to be able to make my own choices on who and what I take in as helpful/useful information. And just because I watch CC doesn't mean I'm going to run out and start disengaging my horse's rearend. :lol: I enjoy watching the show, and quite frankly, there could be a time in my life that perhaps something I've seen on that show could possibly come in handy, maybe not...but I'm not going to gasp and cringe just because it's a cowboy working with a GP Dressage Horse. ;)

I guess for all who PM'd me for a copy of the show....My DVR has apparently skipped the Part 2 unless it reshows this Sunday. I'll let you know.

You know, I too wonder if being quite that strict, like not wanting to ocassionally not "disengage the hind end" or, as I was told, "don't teach the spanish walk, because it is a disuniting movement" is that seriously wrong.

I wonder if, teachinch such AND NOT OVERDOING IT, as so many then do, if it is then, in moderation, just one more skill our horses aquire that, yes, goes against collection, but IS IT REALLY HARMFUL?

I would not put some of that in the definitively harmful category, like regularly overflexing to where a horse goes behind the bit in place of truly lightening up while still connected, or teaching to rear as a trick (not a proper levade, as the ultimate point of collection) that may become a dangerous evasion.

NOMIOMI1
Nov. 15, 2007, 11:53 AM
Have any of you ridden a horse that has done this kind of training too long. Noodle neck doesnt even begin to describe it. It is downright scary when the horses head goes the opposite way of his body when the slightest pressure is applied. Dont get me started on the shoulders and hind end. Like I said even my pleasure horses arent trained this way. I dont know if it even has a place in any discipline. jmo

NoDQhere
Nov. 15, 2007, 12:06 PM
1. Why assume no other trainer would take on this horse? People do just choose a trainer based on his/her own merits, without being turned down by others first.

True, and many people go with who's the cheapest, too:lol: Not that I'm implying that CC is "cheap" :no:


2. If the current owner of the horse is the woman shown riding him in the clips, she certainly doesn't look like she's lacking in skills.

Not necessarily "lacking in skills", perhaps just not "brave" or "aggressive" enough for this particular horse.


3. Do any of you really believe a Grand Prix dressage horse's training can truly be ruined or "undone" by four sessions of the type of work we're watching?

Trust me, this horse is getting a lot more than four sessions. I think much more is being done off camera. And yes, the type of training we are seeing can do much "damage" to an upper level horse. Mostly I see the potential for adding more evasion "tricks" by the overbending and disengagement being done.


4. Anyone who rides competently knows you can often feel things that aren't readily seen, especially by the casual observer. When CC is remarking the horse isn't "soft" or "giving" yet and so isn't letting up on an exercise, see the first sentence in this paragraph.

But CC's idea of soft is for the horse to be completely "off the aids"


5. I'm not sold on the whole "disengage the haunches" and overflex thing as a "must" for every training program, but I do know if I'm going to get on a 17.2+h behemoth with big evasion issues, I want to be able to get him to do something with his feet and neck other than use them against me. For those of you who object to what CC is doing - what would be your plan for this horse?

FORWARD FORWARD FORWARD - Backed up by proper use of legs and spurs and whip, leaving no doubt in the horse's mind that he MUST GO FORWARD. :yes:

grayarabpony
Nov. 15, 2007, 12:11 PM
FORWARD FORWARD FORWARD - Backed up by proper use of legs and spurs and whip, leaving no doubt in the horse's mind that he MUST GO FORWARD. :yes:

Agreed. Loose rein, whatever, as long as he goes forward.

Bluey
Nov. 15, 2007, 01:15 PM
Have any of you ridden a horse that has done this kind of training too long. Noodle neck doesnt even begin to describe it. It is downright scary when the horses head goes the opposite way of his body when the slightest pressure is applied. Dont get me started on the shoulders and hind end. Like I said even my pleasure horses arent trained this way. I dont know if it even has a place in any discipline. jmo

Yes, shudder!:eek:
I assumed it was something the ones that do it would eventually realize and change, but I don't see it happen.
We had a great roping prospect we retrained and then sold as an arena roper, not for outside yet, hoping the training holds.
The buyer was warned, but that false lightness seems to be a siren song for many.:(

Sithly
Nov. 15, 2007, 02:18 PM
Have any of you ridden a horse that has done this kind of training too long. Noodle neck doesnt even begin to describe it. It is downright scary when the horses head goes the opposite way of his body when the slightest pressure is applied. Dont get me started on the shoulders and hind end. Like I said even my pleasure horses arent trained this way. I dont know if it even has a place in any discipline. jmo

I hate that type of behavior with a burning, firey passion. BUT, I will say that I've seen just as much of it from horses that were "tied back" or "bitted" in their early training. Those things are like bombs waiting to go off. :eek:


Yes, shudder!:eek:
I assumed it was something the ones that do it would eventually realize and change, but I don't see it happen.
We had a great roping prospect we retrained and then sold as an arena roper, not for outside yet, hoping the training holds.
The buyer was warned, but that false lightness seems to be a siren song for many.:(

False lightness is exactly what it is. Man, my trainer would scream my ears bloody if I ever got my horse behind the vertical or let him rubberneck. He is always telling us that true lightness comes from between the ears (meaning the brain), not from the neck.

MyReality
Nov. 15, 2007, 02:41 PM
Would I ask CC or a cowboy to work my horse? You bet. Granted I never trained a horse that end up bucking or rearing... but let say heaven send me a horse like this, I WILL send him/her to a cowboy. Why not to a GP level trainer? Well it depends where you are... in Europe yes of course. Here, honestly I know few GP trainer that will do any hands on with a beast like this... maybe she will coach you through it... but even the coaching is questionable when it comes to behavioural issues. I went to a clinic (European)... the clinician ask this GP rider (who herself is a top competitor, top trainer in the country) to give the mare a big correction with the whip... she showed considerable hesitation because the mare is reactive to the whip... although she did do as suggested (kudo to her)... it just shows, us dressage people are really not the bravest kind. I am a big chciken myself.

I know a lady who has a horse that bucks. Send to a GP trainer and promptly sent back. I think this is more the norm for dressage people.

I am not contradicting with what I said. People need to understand horses don't get sour. Our goal is always to develop a vice free horse. At the same time, getting a western trainer's help is nothing extraordinary.

I wouldn't take my young horsie to a cowboy and ask him to teach contact and flexion. But I know a few cowboys who could put nice nice 30 day on a horse, and fix a few problem horses.

dalpal
Nov. 15, 2007, 02:57 PM
Dressage did not teach the horse to rear. Bad riding did.

CC will effectively shut the horse down. The rider will be able ride the horse easier with it shut down. The scores will go down. Rider will not have learned to ride any better. Cycle will begin again.


Boy you sure are an expert on this horse's background..perhaps you know him ;)

Gosh, wish I could forsee the future such as you. :lol:

dalpal
Nov. 15, 2007, 03:00 PM
And presumeably no lower level dressage trainer, no hunter jumper trainer and no eventing trainer? It hardly takes a FEI level trainer to re-school a horse that is "misbehaving." As was said before, a knowledgeable trainer in just about ANY discipline knows how to squelch those sorts of evasions without resorting to all of the somewhat rough handling that has been described on this program.


Yes, Sandy, that is my point.....perhaps there is NO hunter/jumper, eventing, lower level, santa claus, tinker bell, easter bunny in this person's area that is willing to deal with the horse.

Now, dear lord, what if a hunter jumper trainer did the exact same thing to break the cycle of rearing...would you gasp or are you gasping over the cowboy hat. :lol:

In MY area, I do not know very many English trainers who want to risk getting hurt on a rearer..they send you to a cowboy...so therefore I'm willing to give the owner the benefit of the doubt, considering I don't know her/him or the situation. I'm not going to condemn them to dressage hell for taking the horse to a well known cowboy. ;)

dalpal
Nov. 15, 2007, 03:03 PM
1. Why assume no other trainer would take on this horse? People do just choose a trainer based on his/her own merits, without being turned down by others first.

2. If the current owner of the horse is the woman shown riding him in the clips, she certainly doesn't look like she's lacking in skills.

3. Do any of you really believe a Grand Prix dressage horse's training can truly be ruined or "undone" by four sessions of the type of work we're watching?

4. Anyone who rides competently knows you can often feel things that aren't readily seen, especially by the casual observer. When CC is remarking the horse isn't "soft" or "giving" yet and so isn't letting up on an exercise, see the first sentence in this paragraph.

5. I'm not sold on the whole "disengage the haunches" and overflex thing as a "must" for every training program, but I do know if I'm going to get on a 17.2+h behemoth with big evasion issues, I want to be able to get him to do something with his feet and neck other than use them against me. For those of you who object to what CC is doing - what would be your plan for this horse?

LOVE this Post...thank you. This is exactly how I feel.

dalpal
Nov. 15, 2007, 03:04 PM
Have any of you ridden a horse that has done this kind of training too long. Noodle neck doesnt even begin to describe it. It is downright scary when the horses head goes the opposite way of his body when the slightest pressure is applied. Dont get me started on the shoulders and hind end. Like I said even my pleasure horses arent trained this way. I dont know if it even has a place in any discipline. jmo

So youre considering four sessions long?????????:confused:

slc2
Nov. 15, 2007, 03:09 PM
Baloney. You're inventing facts now, just to back up your ah...theory.

One incident of a rider at a clinic, and you decide dressage trainers aren't any good at fixing bad behavior problems? :lol: Bushwah.

Frankly, I don't know of a good dressage trainer (young, strong, etc) who has ANY problems with correcting bad behavior, even the worse behavior you could imagine. And I actually think they can be far, far better at it than an NH or cowboy trainer. The NH method takes the power away from the horse, the dressage trainer takes all that and puts it to work doing even more brilliant dressage.

Sure, there are some wealthy older ladies who are hesitant to correct their little poopsy darlings because darling might respond with an offended manner. But they are hardly horse trainers.

But I have never in my life seen ANYONE take on worse behavior than the good dressage trainers I've worked with. And with such GLEE, for god's sake.

The way things are being presented here, that dressage trainers don't deal with rough horses, is the most distorted bit of unreality i've ever read here! Sure some won't but a hell of a lot do, and relish it, and are GREAT at it.

I remember Michael Barisone's wife Vera Kessels telling me about a horse that they had that blew up his belly when you got on and tossed people in the air like cannonballs, and how much Michael relished getting on that horse and fixing him.

A gal here told me her Dutch trainer in the USA got in a horse that stood on its hind legs and 'walked the wall', walked down the entire long side of the ring with his forefeet, standing on his hind legs. The Dutch trainer chuckled when she asked what to do about it. Her answer was 'he's just looking for attention', LOL!

The trainers I've worked with have fixed some absolutely horrendous behavior problems, and actually, worked on all sorts of horses, with things going on NOT ONE of the local other-type trainers would take on and relished it. Sure, once they hit about 50 years old they may be more conservative, but in my experience, there's nothing like a good strong young professional dressage trainer for getting on a rough horse and putting an END, toute de suite, to all that. A dressage rider with a strong seat can have a far, far better ability to get into a horse and fix these problems.

One got a horse that would walk around on its hind legs for 10 min straight screaming and squealing his head off (young stallion), the trainer used to calmly say things like 'So he's an a**', and grin, or, 'Look, I can see the Dog Star from here!' and laugh her ass off. We had a jumper trainer at one barn and she and the dressage professional used to try and outdo eachother with their tales of breaking bad behavior problems, it was hysterical.

Eclectic Horseman
Nov. 15, 2007, 03:21 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNMIz-RjJyw

Someone posted this video earlier on this board and I found it a bit off putting because of the obvious immature hubris of the poster. :) Nice little rider with quiet seat and hands working some testy equines through some misbehaviors. Not the sort of thing dressage professionals usually brag about. This is just BASIC stuff people, all in a days work.

We BRAG when we start getting scores over 65%..... :winkgrin:

FancyFree
Nov. 15, 2007, 03:24 PM
Would I ask CC or a cowboy to work my horse? You bet. Granted I never trained a horse that end up bucking or rearing... but let say heaven send me a horse like this, I WILL send him/her to a cowboy. Why not to a GP level trainer? Well it depends where you are... in Europe yes of course. Here, honestly I know few GP trainer that will do any hands on with a beast like this... maybe she will coach you through it... but even the coaching is questionable when it comes to behavioural issues. I went to a clinic (European)... the clinician ask this GP rider (who herself is a top competitor, top trainer in the country) to give the mare a big correction with the whip... she showed considerable hesitation because the mare is reactive to the whip... although she did do as suggested (kudo to her)... it just shows, us dressage people are really not the bravest kind. I am a big chciken myself.

I know a lady who has a horse that bucks. Send to a GP trainer and promptly sent back. I think this is more the norm for dressage people.

I am not contradicting with what I said. People need to understand horses don't get sour. Our goal is always to develop a vice free horse. At the same time, getting a western trainer's help is nothing extraordinary.

I wouldn't take my young horsie to a cowboy and ask him to teach contact and flexion. But I know a few cowboys who could put nice nice 30 day on a horse, and fix a few problem horses.

That's been my experience as well. My old trainer had a client who had a horse that bucked. The back story was that this horse had no physical problems, completely vet checked, but would, out of the blue, pull big bucks. This mare would not pull this with her former owner. But as soon as she was sold to my trainer's client, she started pulling all kinds of crap. The owner was definitely over horsed with this mare. One day he was bucked off and broke his pelvis. My trainer decided to work with her. She was riding along, going very nicely with no apparent problems and this mare bucked. Huge. I saw my trainer fly to the ceiling of the ring. (She's a little thing). I think this horse had gotten away with bad behavior for so long that even an experienced rider like my trainer had problems. She was okay but never got on a client's horse again after that. I know another BNT that has the same rule. She only rides her own horses. So I agree that the dressage trainers that I know, save one, would not take on this horse. So it is possible that CC was a last resort for this owner.

Eclectic Horseman
Nov. 15, 2007, 03:34 PM
umm, if this is supposed to be a GP horse, do any of you wannabes have the slightest idea how much this horse would be worth? Lots of competent dressage trainers would be thrilled to work with a made GP horse--the opportunity does not present itself very often. :yes:

But I agree that you would have to be a fool, a cowboy or a teenager to risk life and limb rehabbing some skanky old off breed crappy mover that is still green at 9 years old. I mean, what's the point? :confused:

sandyliz
Nov. 15, 2007, 03:43 PM
For those of you who object to what CC is doing - what would be your plan for this horse?[/QUOTE]

I'd send him to halfpassgal. Eclectic Horseman's earlier post has the link...it's worth watching the videos Breathe and 1st Show Freakout.

dalpal
Nov. 15, 2007, 03:51 PM
umm, if this is supposed to be a GP horse, do any of you wannabes have the slightest idea how much this horse would be worth? Lots of competent dressage trainers would be thrilled to work with a made GP horse--the opportunity does not present itself very often. :yes:

But I agree that you would have to be a fool, a cowboy or a teenager to risk life and limb rehabbing some skanky old off breed crappy mover that is still green at 9 years old. I mean, what's the point? :confused:


BAH, now why am I a "wannabe" because I'm watching a TV show. :lol:

dalpal
Nov. 15, 2007, 03:52 PM
HMMMMM, and what if halfpassgal is out of your area (yes, I know you could ship the horse) or what if that person is full?? Then what?

What do you know about halfpassgal other than what you saw on one "breathtaking" video.

Eclectic Horseman
Nov. 15, 2007, 03:57 PM
There are lots and lots of "halfpassgals" out there. Talented teenagers with lots of patience and guts. :yes:

Dalpal, you are a wannabe because you constantly reveal your total and utter ignorance of dressage. This is the reason that you are obviously so impressed by telequestrianism. :eek:

Sithly
Nov. 15, 2007, 03:58 PM
BAH, now why am I a "wannabe" because I'm watching a TV show. :lol:

No, no. It's because you don't acknowledge the supreme potency of dressage. ;) I'm surprised other disciplines even exist. I mean, what's the point? Dressage does everything they do, only better.

:lol::rolleyes::lol:

MontanaDun
Nov. 15, 2007, 03:59 PM
Funny.

Example 1. Dressage trainer chickens out.

A local young rising dressage pro came out to work my youngster (3.5 yo). She was pretty nappy with him - bucking and threatening to rear. He was unwilling to work it through and got off. Hubby wound up getting on to push her forward and end the session appropriately.
Said rising star is young, fit and talented. He just didn't want to risk getting hurt riding a nappy greenie.

Filly went to a cowboy for 60 days and came back a new pone. Did she go to the bridle quite as one would like? No. Was it hard for a (different) dressage pro to teach her to go forward to the connection? No - in fact she said she is one of the easiest and most rideable youngsters she has ever had. When I told pro #2, "she was being kind of nappy, so we sent her to a cowboy" and she said "Thanks!".

Hub's a farrier with an established business. He doesn't do gorillas anymore - he doesn't have to. Most dressage trainers that I know are self-employed and aren't interested in assuming the risk of getting hurt riding a difficult horse. Not to say they can't do it, they just don't want to deal with it.

Example 2. Western trained horse CAN go forward to the bridle.

One of my boarders has a very nicely trained AQHA mare. Nicely trained for AQHA HUS. Did she know how to go to the bridle when we got her? No. Was it hard to teach her? Nah. Her very ammy owner can't do it, but can't ride her when she is really forward anyhow. Can an accomplished rider do it? Sure - it's pretty easy. The hard part is getting her in front of the leg. I don't attribute that problem to cowboy training though. She's a smart old dame who knows how to get out of work. LOL Plenty of dressage-only trained WB's know those tricks too.

What she does have is a great fund of obedience to the bridle, so that you can be very soft with the hand as you work her forward to the connection. Will she creep behind the vertical or get noodly in the neck? Sure, if I get too "handsy" or drop the outside rein connection (hmmm - so will lots of horses, no matter their training), but I would much rather ride a horse like her than a horse that is stiff in the jaw and tight in the neck.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that while we are looking for brilliance in a dressage horse, we are looking for brilliance within a context of submission to the aids. If the horse isn't relaxed, forward, straight - all of which arise from submission to the aids - then you are missing the base of the training pyramid. If Mr/Ms Trainer (dressage or cowboy or whatever) can teach the horse to be obedient and submissive, then it's pretty easy to take that base of obedience and build on it to whichever direction you want.

Eclectic Horseman
Nov. 15, 2007, 04:01 PM
No, no. It's because you don't acknowledge the supreme potency of dressage. ;) I'm surprised other disciplines even exist. I mean, what's the point? Dressage does everything they do, only better.

:lol::rolleyes::lol:


Umm, maybe you folks should petition COTH to start an NH board instead of coming over here to a DRESSAGE board to try to recruit dressage riders. I mean what do you expect? Do you go to a Republican meeting and start talking about how great a Democrat is??????:confused:

NOMIOMI1
Nov. 15, 2007, 04:08 PM
I actually enjoy several disciplines but most of the gear, tactics, and body language would untrain my dressage horse. Learn and do well at several disciplines and then compare it to dressage a very different world. I squash my hunters flat and even admit that I like them kinda strung out (leg off) and we do quite well. Im still trying to find a place in the world for noodle necks and millions of roll backs besides major shutdownville with dalpal as the mayor!:lol:

dalpal
Nov. 15, 2007, 04:08 PM
There are lots and lots of "halfpassgals" out there. Talented teenagers with lots of patience and guts. :yes:

Dalpal, you are a wannabe because you constantly reveal your total and utter ignorance of dressage. This is the reason that you are obviously so impressed by telequestrianism. :eek:


Awwww...boo hoo. Considering you don't know me from Adam's house cat..that's a very presumputious statement. So I'm now a dressage fool because I'm recording CC show.:lol: Guess I'd better tell husband to cancel satellite because the COTH members disapprove. ;)

Sorry, EH, but I will always be an open minded individual..if that makes me ignorant..too bad. ;)

And no, I'm not going to put a teenager on a rearing horse....I think that's pretty irresponsible and dangerous...but then again I am ignorant. ;)

dalpal
Nov. 15, 2007, 04:16 PM
EH..the only one here that seems to have an issue is you....I only posted that CC was doing a series with a GP dressage horse. Does that make me a natural horsemanship groupy...UH, no.

I have a classical dressage trainer myself...

Really, if you hate the topic then don't open it up...it's as simple as that. ;)

By the way..the late Mary Beth McLean sent her horses to a cowboy to be broke. Gasp, the horrors...and here's an FEI rider who used a cowboy to break her horses...guess that made her a NH lover as well. :lol:

Gosh, now that I am a NH groupy....guess I'd better go throw all my Conrad Schumacher, and other USDF synposium tapes away.

Sithly
Nov. 15, 2007, 04:16 PM
Umm, maybe you folks should petition COTH to start an NH board instead of coming over here to a DRESSAGE board to try to recruit dressage riders. I mean what do you expect? Do you go to a Republican meeting and start talking about how great a Democrat is??????:confused:

I'm not recruiting anyone, believe me. I love dressage, but I've also worked with a NH trainer and found that his program helped me and my horse greatly. Not all NH trainers are the same, and not all NH training methods are harmful to a dressage horse. Also, I just don't see the harm in sending your horse to a different trainer if you're having problems your current trainer can't help with. My dressage trainer won't even take unbroke horses, let alone problem horses.

If you want to keep your sandbox clean, I suggest in the future you pass right on by thread titles with these key words: RFD, NH, CC, PP, JL, CA.

dalpal
Nov. 15, 2007, 04:18 PM
I actually enjoy several disciplines but most of the gear, tactics, and body language would untrain my dressage horse. Learn and do well at several disciplines and then compare it to dressage a very different world. I squash my hunters flat and even admit that I like them kinda strung out (leg off) and we do quite well. Im still trying to find a place in the world for noodle necks and millions of roll backs besides major shutdownville with dalpal as the mayor!:lol:

You guys crack me up. I post a link to a show and all of a sudden I'm the mayor of major shutdownville.....Too funny. Talk about the word ass-u-me.

Please dear, inform me as to how you know me well enough to tell me I am the mayor of Shutdownville.???????

Isn't it about time for you to take all your posts back and run home...LOL!

Sandy M
Nov. 15, 2007, 05:35 PM
Yes, Sandy, that is my point.....perhaps there is NO hunter/jumper, eventing, lower level, santa claus, tinker bell, easter bunny in this person's area that is willing to deal with the horse.

Now, dear lord, what if a hunter jumper trainer did the exact same thing to break the cycle of rearing...would you gasp or are you gasping over the cowboy hat. :lol:

In MY area, I do not know very many English trainers who want to risk getting hurt on a rearer..they send you to a cowboy...so therefore I'm willing to give the owner the benefit of the doubt, considering I don't know her/him or the situation. I'm not going to condemn them to dressage hell for taking the horse to a well known cowboy. ;)

Of course, if no one else would take the horse on, ya gotta do what ya gotta do (to paraphrase The Duke - who wasn't all that good a rider (rough hands according to the movie horse wranglers - they had to keep a supply of horses for him 'caused he pissed his horses off during the course of filming). Just saying that I agree with those who opine that this was someone who - through inexperience or fear or lack of confidence - failed to nip this behavior in the bud and got to a bad place. But I know a LOT of higher level dressage trainers who would not hesitate to take on a horse like this, and a lot more event trainers who would deal with it without having an issue (but of course - won't eventers deal with ANYTHING?!? LOL).

My colt starter did some "behaviorally corrective" roll backs on my bebe - but they were relatively slow mo, in a rope halter - no bit, working him off her seat and legs, not roughly, but firmly, and only done once or twice in each direction - not anything like what has been described. Now... this horse probably needed more correction than my bebe, obviously, and I don't really have a major problem with cowboy trainers taking on "problem cases" - but it just seems very odd that someone who has a GP dressage horse doesn't have a competent trainer who would have nipped this in the bud at a much earlier point.

slc2
Nov. 15, 2007, 05:43 PM
Guess what? It probably ISN'T 'a grand prix horse'.

dalpal
Nov. 15, 2007, 05:47 PM
Sandy...I agree with you...you do have to do what you have to do AND do what's right for you.

I was just aggravated that people jumped on the "anti cowboy" bandwagon without even knowing the whole story. I think it's sad that you can't even post a link to a harmless TV show without people calling you ignorant or assuming that you shut your horses down because you watched a cowboy show...that is pretty darn rude and presumputious.

I would love to discuss this show and have different people's opinions..those who agree and those who don't...makes no difference to me.

But there is absolutely no need tell a poster they are ignorant or shut their horses down over a simple TV link....that's so over the top and pretty darn cocky if you ask me.

Only these people who sent the horse to CC know the full story/history. So I became abit aggravated that people just started making assumptions as to what the horse did, who owned it, how the horse would be in the future...because, quite honestly none of you know unless you know the horse.

I am a very lighthearted person and try to be lighthearted in my posts.....I'm just shocked at the uproar over a simple TV show.

dalpal
Nov. 15, 2007, 05:48 PM
Guess what? It probably ISN'T 'a grand prix horse'.


SLC..please tell me why you think this??? I really don't care if it is or isn't...but once again, we are making assumptions without any history on the horse and I honestly do not think that is fair.

dalpal
Nov. 15, 2007, 05:56 PM
I have a semi relevant story to share.

Not my horse, but someone I am familiar with.

Young Rider goes to BNT in the area...BNT decides her horse (who is lovely by the way..fourth level and former trainer saw no reason why this horse wouldn't go on into the FEI levels) isn't good enough. BNT tells the mother that he knows of a terrific horse in Europe in their price range..the reason horse is in their price range is because they are having some issues getting the horse in the ring, but BNT feels that he can get the horse over this.

Mother has faith in BNT and buys horse. Horse comes to USA. Horse is very soured to the dressage ring and will not go in...will do warm up ring all day long but will rear, balk..will NOT go into competition arena. This is a Prix St. George horse who according to BNT, did very well in Europe.

BNT moves out of area....young rider gets another BNT, who is very reputable, especially with difficult horses. Still cannot get horse into ring. Gets eliminated from a Young Rider's test because horse won't go in the ring.



My point is....a horse can make it to the FEI levels and still have issues. The young rider has since moved to a new barn, so I haven't a clue if anyone has been able to get this horse over this or not...but, it does happen...maybe not often...but it does.

grayarabpony
Nov. 15, 2007, 06:10 PM
umm, if this is supposed to be a GP horse, do any of you wannabes have the slightest idea how much this horse would be worth? Lots of competent dressage trainers would be thrilled to work with a made GP horse--the opportunity does not present itself very often. :yes:



That horse is worth a lot less now than what his owner paid for him.

MyReality
Nov. 15, 2007, 06:24 PM
It depends who you ask. My point is still the same, I know more people going to western trainers for problem horses than dressage trainers. I know more dressage trainers not willing to take on or continue with a dangerous horse, than western trainers. I know far more dressage horses than need attitude adjustments than western horses. Sure dressage riders could ride a buck or two, but I know few that will want to fix a confirmed behaviour, where I am. I am just talking about the norm.

I am not discrediting dressage trainers or finding fault with dressage as a discipline. It is a great system, one I believe in greatly, to prevent a horse from going "sour" in the first place. But let's not kid ourselves that dressage people are the brave kind that the majority of horsepeople would expect to fix the bucks and the rears.

I don't want people to think western trainers destroy their dressage horses. It is not true. Let them do what they are good at... the good ones of course.

Pely
Nov. 15, 2007, 08:54 PM
EH....

Yep, you nailed it

FancyFree
Nov. 16, 2007, 01:02 AM
It depends who you ask. My point is still the same, I know more people going to western trainers for problem horses than dressage trainers. I know more dressage trainers not willing to take on or continue with a dangerous horse, than western trainers. I know far more dressage horses than need attitude adjustments than western horses. Sure dressage riders could ride a buck or two, but I know few that will want to fix a confirmed behaviour, where I am. I am just talking about the norm.

I am not discrediting dressage trainers or finding fault with dressage as a discipline. It is a great system, one I believe in greatly, to prevent a horse from going "sour" in the first place. But let's not kid ourselves that dressage people are the brave kind that the majority of horsepeople would expect to fix the bucks and the rears.

I don't want people to think western trainers destroy their dressage horses. It is not true. Let them do what they are good at... the good ones of course.

Finally a rational post free of insults. Thank you! I completely agree. The dressage teachers I know don't want to deal with a dangerous horse. That's just my experience. I'm sure they could if they had to though.

Geez who knew a television show could bring out such nastiness. Are the put downs really necessary?
I never got the impression that by posting this topic Dalpal was trying to foist any type of training down our throats. She was merely letting us know that it was on. It's been interesting to watch and I appreciate her pointing it out. No, this "wanna be" hasn't had even one sip of the "Kool-aid." I just try to keep an open mind about most things.


Gosh, now that I am a NH groupy....guess I'd better go throw all my Conrad Schumacher, and other USDF synposium tapes away.

Who knew Dalpal? The things you learn from total strangers on the internet! It's amaaaaazing!

Sithly
Nov. 16, 2007, 01:58 AM
It depends who you ask. My point is still the same, I know more people going to western trainers for problem horses than dressage trainers. I know more dressage trainers not willing to take on or continue with a dangerous horse, than western trainers. I know far more dressage horses than need attitude adjustments than western horses. Sure dressage riders could ride a buck or two, but I know few that will want to fix a confirmed behaviour, where I am. I am just talking about the norm.

I am not discrediting dressage trainers or finding fault with dressage as a discipline. It is a great system, one I believe in greatly, to prevent a horse from going "sour" in the first place. But let's not kid ourselves that dressage people are the brave kind that the majority of horsepeople would expect to fix the bucks and the rears.

I don't want people to think western trainers destroy their dressage horses. It is not true. Let them do what they are good at... the good ones of course.

Amen!

Just wanted to add that I'm not faulting dressage, either. I really do believe it can help just about any horse (or else I wouldn't inflict it upon my poor horse :lol:). I just wanted to point out the fact that all NH trainers are not the same.

You hear people complain all the time that watching videos doesn't make you an expert. Well, that logic applies to both sides. There is more to NH than you see on RFD. I wouldn't watch a video of Anky and summarily dismiss dressage. Or if I did, I'd really be missing out.

kayla
Nov. 16, 2007, 02:16 AM
Well, dalpal, i sincerely hope that you learned something in all of these pages. Instead of coming to a dressage board and urging people to watch this telequestrian cowboy NH stuff, you would do well to study some dressage. Your posts show a real fundamental ignorance of what dressage training is all about. :no: Believe me, if you had some real knowledge of dressage, you would not be so impressed by these TV trainers.:dead:
EH

I've been lurking for a bit, and I don't really know any of you...but yeesh, this is so over-the-top rude that I'm flabbergasted.

I was a western rider who ended up (somehow) buying a 3rd level dressage Hanoverian. I've been working hard to learn dressage and this board seemed like it might be a great resource since it's not just limited to dressage and I may end up pursuing low level eventing. (My horse was a GP jumper prospect, but medical issues leave him unable to do too much jumping these days.)

So, happy me comes into this thread and have watched it get nastier and nastier culminating in reading this post where one person thinks if another doesn't agree with them, clearly they are clueless.

Wow. Welcome to CotH?? :eek:

Tarlo Farm
Nov. 16, 2007, 07:22 AM
Just like some people are Methodist, or Lutheran, or Catholic; just like some people are shy, or introverted, or extroverted, or witty, or wound tightly, I believe horses are similar. Certain cultures of people, certain breeds of horses, have certain characteristics. If I were to buy a horse for a green rider, I'd look at a 15 yo Quarter Horse before I'd look at an Arab - and I rode Arabs for years.
If my 17hh warmblood starts rearing on me I'm sending her to someone who wants to take the chance of serious injury. That's not me, that's not my training.

slc2
Nov. 16, 2007, 07:23 AM
Not really, LOL.

You have to try to remember, people feel very passionate about their point of view. You can find arguments like this on any web site devoted to a treasured subject. My friend encountered the same sort of thing when she checked into a bulletinboard devoted to the feeding of small kittens, for God's sake. people write very differently on a bulletin board, (USUALLY) from who they really are. people get a sort of Dutch Courage when on these boards. there is also a lot of very juvenile stuff that goes on on bulletin boards, and it is all the more shocking because it's immortalized in print, when people make comments like this to their pals all the time, it doesn't seem so bad.

Of course, some of it is just people kinda flexing their muscles on the internet, and isn't really passion, but it just well...kinda...hubris.

You can focus on that, throw up your hands and declare this is some sort of highly unique problem isolated to this bulletin board and these people (it isn't) or you can come here, ask your questions, get a lot of interesting answers, some that are useless, some of which aren't useless but aren't relevant, some of which are someone's misguided efforts to create a sort of amalgam of riding styles that includes ALL methods and ALL training techniques, and some of which are useful, and hear a lot of debating, some of which is going to involve people calling each other names or saying things like 'God, what ignorance' when they find someone doesn't agree with them. you will also meet some thoroughly decent people who will be very helpful to you.

Because dressage has a long history in Europe and when you get people who are attracted to a form of riding that they feel is really head and shoulders above every other form of riding, they tend to get, well, a little more than passionate. They get a little snobby.

Too, what people simply accept in one form of riding (Western), is largely conditioned and trained into them. They accept what they routinely see. A dressage person hasn't gone thru that education process the western rider has. Every riding form has a different sort of education, and different set of things people are taught to accept as alright. In many cases, what is accepted in one form of riding IS actually very hard on the horse, and anyone looking in from the outside would say, 'wait a minute, what in the hell is that!' such as putting sharp pieces in a jumper's tendon boots, or putting acid or soreing juice on a tennessee walker. When an outsider yells about something, all the people in that form of riding tend to band together and yell, 'but you do something even worse!' and no one gets anywhere.

In a way, dressage IS in a unique position as a riding style. First of all, it's very difficult. In western riding, you have 3 yr old horses with 90 days of training in the show ring. You have young horses in the top levels of reining.

We can't. The training takes longer, and in many ways, it's very hard. Hard on the rider.

Add to that that most people, despite a TON of exposure, clinics, reading, and years and years of riding, never move beyond 1st level or so in dressage competition, and you have a lot of very frustrated people. They can quote line and verse what dressage is, but actual success in it always just slightly eludes them.

You also have got to understand that when someone says some western riding is 'awful', they don't usually mean it really is awful, but that it would not be considered correct in dressage.

People love...no...people ADORE their chosen form of riding. Anyone who spends so much time and effort on something is going to have to justify their choice, and they do that by crowing about THEIR chosen form of riding. Western riders are emulating the Marlboro Man, and are free-er and more natural, and Saddle Seat riders are more elegant, and hunt seat riders are emulating the English Lord at his manor house in the country, and dressage riders are following that perfect classical ideal.

There's much more to all these forms of riding, but many people never get past that initial impression.

All horse people think their form of riding is right, logical, and superior to any other form of riding. You'll find saddle seat riders who say dressage is dumb, and western riders who say dressage is dumb, and hunt seat riders who say dressage is dumb, so you can't be surprised when you come to a dressage bb and hear people say negative things about other forms of riding - because that's what most riders do, regardless of what their favorite form of riding is.

Except for some. I've seen a number of experienced old timers in dressage who simply don't indulge in that. When one friend had a student quit to do Western riding, she refused to join in when her students ragged on the girl (in absentia, of course, they were as smooth as glass to her face - people don't become perfect just because they do dressage, though if they stick with it, they might improve). The trainer told them to shut up and said, 'with talk like that, you make SURE people leave dressage, so unless you want to be thrown out of my barn, and find someone else to take lessons from, shut up'. of course, you'll notice, that trainer is not ON this board, LOL.

Pely
Nov. 16, 2007, 07:44 AM
But the training doesn't make sense.
Just when the horse was starting to relax and show some swing and rhythm, CC jerked it into the fence in other psuedo-rollback, and punished the horse. Being spun around the middle, with the back hollow puts a lot of stress on the hind legs. That horse was already tired and stressed, he was blowing and his knees were shaky. Yes, he is over at the knee, so that is accentuated. The punishment came out of nowhere, so there was no mental connection for the horse between bad behaivior and the punishment.

The cowboy stuff works by intimidating the horse. At any second the horse may be asked to quickly turn or stop. There is no preparation for the change of gait or direction, and the aids are often crude. So the horse remains in a state of attentivness, that some may mistake for obedience, but it is an intimidated, ultra submissive state of mind. The horse is on constant alert, not in a good way, but in a semi-frightened, nervous wreck ulcer prone way. Some of the horses start to act like abused children. And the spurring while holding short reins so that the horse has to "give" by overflexing incorrectly is another form of intimidation. There was no release to allow the horse to stretch. That would have rewarded the giving. The horses eventually become robots. They focus on their riders/handlers because they don't know when the next surprise attack is going to happen.

There are some horses that need some of this type of training, for a very very short time, but the punishment has to suit the crime, and not come out of nowhere. There has to be reward for good behavior.

ToN Farm
Nov. 16, 2007, 09:41 AM
I haven't watched the program, but admit to being very much anti-western type training. I want to ask if anybody knows of a dressage horse that has been sent to a cowboy for 'fixin' and then went back to his owner and performed well as a result. My quite long experience with horses has shown me that once a horse has developed a certain behavior problem, it will always resurface under the right conditions. Personally, I'd choose to retire a problem horse before I would send it to a cowboy.

I would like to know more about the horse in the program; it's name and owner. Why don't they tell us that? I would be curious to know when the problems started and what steps were taken prior to sending it off to a cowboy.

NoDQhere
Nov. 16, 2007, 10:56 AM
But the training doesn't make sense.
Just when the horse was starting to relax and show some swing and rhythm, CC jerked it into the fence in other psuedo-rollback, and punished the horse. Being spun around the middle, with the back hollow puts a lot of stress on the hind legs. That horse was already tired and stressed, he was blowing and his knees were shaky. Yes, he is over at the knee, so that is accentuated. The punishment came out of nowhere, so there was no mental connection for the horse between bad behaivior and the punishment.

The cowboy stuff works by intimidating the horse. At any second the horse may be asked to quickly turn or stop. There is no preparation for the change of gait or direction, and the aids are often crude. So the horse remains in a state of attentivness, that some may mistake for obedience, but it is an intimidated, ultra submissive state of mind. The horse is on constant alert, not in a good way, but in a semi-frightened, nervous wreck ulcer prone way. Some of the horses start to act like abused children. And the spurring while holding short reins so that the horse has to "give" by overflexing incorrectly is another form of intimidation. There was no release to allow the horse to stretch. That would have rewarded the giving. The horses eventually become robots. They focus on their riders/handlers because they don't know when the next surprise attack is going to happen.

There are some horses that need some of this type of training, for a very very short time, but the punishment has to suit the crime, and not come out of nowhere. There has to be reward for good behavior.


So true, and this is why so many of us "Dressage" people don't endorse most Cowboy stuff. That hat doesn't make a trainer "good" and there are way too many who have attended a few "infomercial NH Clinics" and hang out a shingle. There are probably 100 "cowboy trainers" out there for every competent dressage trainer.

There are many Dressage trainers who have come to Dressage from the Western scene, and we have learned what training methods do not "cross over". The rubbernecking and the jerking around in the rollback have no place in the training of ANY horse, IMO, but especially not a horse being pointed in the Dressage direction. So perhaps we come across as "snobby" because when we see a rider doing that type of training, we just KNOW how bad it is and want to tell people to STOP as it WILL come back to haunt you!

Is all Cowboy training bad? No. A good cowboy "colt" (cowboys never say filly :lol:) starter is worth his weight in gold. But they are few and far between.

I will say it again that the horse CC is working with, isn't even BAD. I would really love to know more about his background. Hopefully the outcome will be good. I mean that the horse goes back to showing, not just becomes an intimidated automon. I wonder if we will ever know?

Eclectic Horseman
Nov. 16, 2007, 11:49 AM
First of all, as my username implies, I appreciate variety of different equestrian disciplines. I have even had some experience in a few of them. I am not “anti” anything except abuse. I have come to dressage because I believe that it is the most difficult discipline because it takes years of “feel” as well as physical ability, and because it additionally engages the mind as an intellectual pursuit.

But I am also a person who believes that each horse is an individual, and that the more tools that a trainer can have in his/her tool kit, the more successful that he/she will be in training all sorts of horses. If a particular technique is not abusive, and can help me to train a certain horse, then I am eager to learn it. But that does not mean that I think that every training technique is applicable to every goal. In my view, NH or any western training is not applicable to dressage because it teaches very different skills meant for very different goals. In dressage we want a horse to accept a firm steady contact with the bit. Lightness only comes when and if the horse learns to sit and carry more weight on his haunches in collection and he lifts his withers and raises his forehand. That is the goal toward which dressage aims. In order to do this, the horse must be straight and the energy must flow through the circle of the aids. The horse must accept the pressure, not retreat from it.

Others on this thread have done a good job of describing the incompatibility of these two different systems. When I talk about the ignorance of some on this thread, I have specifically stated ignorance of dressage. There is no response to the posts about the goals of dressage and the incompatibility of NH from those ignorant people, because they do not know what dressage is. They do not speak the language of dressage, they do not understand the terminology and they obviously do not comprehend the biomechanical concepts. Instead, all they can do is talk about “bashing” NH and go on to say how NH is necessary because dressage trainers are timid, unavailable or incompetent. They can parrot NH terminology that they have learned from tv cowboys, but they do not understand the underlying biomechanics, and they cannot engage in a meaningful, intelligent discussion about why they believe NH techniques are not counterproductive in dressage training. They do not come to learn. They do not come to discuss. They come to a dressage board to prostheletize about NH. There is no other reason that I can see.

poltroon
Nov. 16, 2007, 12:04 PM
I haven't seen Chris Cox work, but I've put this show in my Tivo queue.

The old Western horsemen have a history as long as dressage, and while a lot of what you see in western show rings or Inspired TV Trainers is bleah, there is a lot of good stuff there. I grew up in a mixed environment, and there is much to appreciate about a good western horse and trainer.

Western horses tie. You'd never see a thread about the horror of tying a horse to a trailer and leaving it unattended to go to the bathroom.

Good western horses are very responsive and very light. In learning dressage it can be easy to find oneself in a rut of kicking every stride. It's a good reminder to see a super western horse that will spin at the touch of a rein. Sometimes we don't expect enough of our horses' intelligence.

I don't want to teach my horse to spin at the touch of a rein - but seeing that reminds me that there's no reason my horse can't do other high energy actions from a whisper touch of my boot - if only I could stop my boot from shouting all the rest of the time.

A good horseman is a good horseman. But it's also true that the animals they choose is a factor. A little bucking is one thing on a 15h quarter horse, and quite another on a 17.2 WB. (I'm taking the hint and choosing smaller horses, personally!)

I think a prime cause of sourness in dressage horses is that they've reached their physical limit, and are being pushed to do more than their body will (easily) accomodate. In this way I would tend to agree with slc that it's likely that the horse may be schooling the Grand Prix movements, but may not be a truly Grand Prix horse - thus the issue. Cross-training (including trail riding, jumping, etc) would be a good fix for another try at dressage - but the horse may or may not be Done.

chancellor2
Nov. 16, 2007, 12:34 PM
I think that SOME natural horsemanship and dressage CAN be compatible. I have recently started working with a NH trainer with a 17 (almost 18) hand Hanoverian. He is a dressage horse but when he is spooking he could be a cutting horse he moves so quickly. The work we have been doing is completely compatible with dressage and has even helped us with the dressage. I started working with this trainer because none of the dressage trainers in my area were willing to work through this issue. They are all afraid of getting hurt (who wouldn't be?)
That said, I've watched the second show in this series and I have to say that this training for the horse is unlikely to have helped that horse's dressage. I'm not sure that CC has a good concept of what is considered "soft" to dressage folks.

I had my young horse started by a cowboy trainer and her training was great. She won her training level dressage test the second time out. Unfortunately, she went on to a pasture accident and she is currently a pasture ornament.

NOMIOMI1
Nov. 16, 2007, 01:03 PM
I hate to see this thread comparing western riding to nh. The pleasure people have as much use for NH as the dressage people do and If you go to their forums (I DO) they have the same debates. THIS TRAINING (NH) IS NOT WESTERN PLEASURE, REINING, CUTTING, WESTERN RIDING, OR HORSMANSHIP. NH is just that NH and it has absolutely no place in hardly any world other than dead broke trail horse.


edited to say; Round here the pleasure trainers send their crazies to NHers and the NHers send their crazies to the Jumpers and the Jumpers send their crazies to the Xcountriers!

Bluey
Nov. 16, 2007, 01:21 PM
---"I think that SOME natural horsemanship and dressage CAN be compatible. "---

Evidently W Zettle thinks so also, for what he wrote about teaching some PP people.

Personally, over many years of watching NH growing, I have not seen not one of those clinicians and followers have a good understanding of the technical basics that my classical equestrian education in Europe provided to all that learn there.
Some of that I have also found missing in some English riding taught in the US, just not to the same extent.

I consider much of US riding to be reinventing the wheel, with at times very interesting results, as in the PP system or here, some of the riding by CC.

Not trying to sound, as someone mentioned, "snobby", because a very good rider and horse will come thru and get the job done fine most times.
I am talking about getting the best done in the time tested, best and correct way horses are trained in the basic dressage system, that helps prepare a horse for any continuing education.

I have know a few cowboys that can train and ride a horse as well as a SRS trained bereiter, as one with the horses, seamingless getting a horse move in selfcarriage, not even having any idea of the technical aspects of it, just because "the horse just feels right now", as one told me, when I asked.
It is a joy to ride a horse after them.

With dressage training, we can teach every rider, to the best of their ability, to ride like this, no matter what discipline they will then follow, because the horse will be asked then to perform in a way that is the inherently best way for any horse to move.

I think that is what dressage accomplishes.

To run a horse frazzled around, to get it hyperalert to the demands of the rider and then keep it up until it is exhausted can work on some resistent horses, may also sore or even cripple them, that is a chance when overexercising.
Now that he has the horse's attention, maybe resuming the regular correct work, not the overbending and scooting around would be better for the horse.
Will have to see how they proceed...

NOMIOMI1
Nov. 16, 2007, 01:35 PM
I agree with the above. However I see this more in Martha Josey (famous barrel racer) and Nancy Cahill (famous clinician and multiple world champion reiner and western rider) who still work on perfect cirlces, halts, alertness to aids, seat, balance (including Sally Swift examples) and many other things that we focus on in dressage. I dont see any of this in the NH trainers of the world.

chancellor2
Nov. 16, 2007, 01:38 PM
To run a horse frazzled around, to get it hyperalert to the demands of the rider and then keep it up until it is exhausted can work on some resistent horses, may also sore or even cripple them, that is a chance when overexercising.

But not all NH is like that.

meupatdoes
Nov. 16, 2007, 01:46 PM
Eclectic Horseman

It is RIDICULOUS for you to start posting that dalpal has "real fundamental ignorance" about dressage and is entirely clueless. Later on you guess that the owner of the horse is an adult amateur who spent a lot of money blah blah blah we have heard it all before. Any time any one has a problem with a horse, some person on the sidelines will INEVITABLY guess that it is somebody with more money than riding ability involved. Thank you for sharing with us the response that any 6 year old, regardless of riding ability or lack thereof, can type into COTH. Did you cut and paste from another thread or type it all anew?

Of course elsewhere in the post you claim somebody else is exhibiting "immature hubris".

Well, you must know, since you can diagnose all of these issues via internet text.

As for slc2:



You have to try to remember, people feel very passionate about their point of view. You can find arguments like this on any web site devoted to a treasured subject. My friend encountered the same sort of thing when she checked into a bulletinboard devoted to the feeding of small kittens, for God's sake. people write very differently on a bulletin board, (USUALLY) from who they really are. people get a sort of Dutch Courage when on these boards. there is also a lot of very juvenile stuff that goes on on bulletin boards, and it is all the more shocking because it's immortalized in print, when people make comments like this to their pals all the time, it doesn't seem so bad.

Of course, some of it is just people kinda flexing their muscles on the internet, and isn't really passion, but it just well...kinda...hubris.

*SNORT*

Well, once again we have a post in which slc2 talks about how wrong everyone else is doing it but fails to provide a video of him/herself fixing the horse in question.
Instead, we have a lot of talk about how

CC's methods would just exacerbate the problem

and

"For example, the rider needs to ride the horse into both reins, sit evenly, and use both legs, and if he doesn't get a response, back it up very quickly with leg, then whip, and keep the horse sharp and responding quickly to the aids. Too, he needs to reward the horse for obedience, and his riding needs to follow a very clear and simple program, with frequent rides, instruction when the rider gets into problems he can't solve himself, and having clear goals and a plan every time he gets on the horse."

Thank you, we are all literate here and can read the latest issue of Dressage Today without you typing it in the box for us.

I'm sure if slc2 were riding the horse, it wouldn't have this problem, because "there are no sour horses, only good riding and bad riding". I'm also sure the owner would be very grateful if you would step in and fix it, so by all means, go ahead.



The trainer told them to shut up and said, 'with talk like that, you make SURE people leave dressage, so unless you want to be thrown out of my barn, and find someone else to take lessons from, shut up'. of course, you'll notice, that trainer is not ON this board, LOL.
Well, on this we agree. EH, take note.

But it's probably just a dog in a horse suit for tv anyway so who cares.

As for the contention that you must always stick with one discipline of training with a horse, I have to say that I forgot to ask Sithly what discipline she was speaking out of when she recommended a training technique for my hunter. Regardless of my forgetting to ask whether she was pulling from her cowboy repertoire, her dressage repetoire, or her huntseat repetoire (which I believe she has all three), I followed the advice she gave me when I described a problem I was having with my horse and asked for her help and it fixed a behavior problem pretty much immediately and gave me a very useful tool that has worked with many horses since. I will have to ask her to make sure I am not ruining my horses with the incorrect discipline anymore.

Of course, Sithly is an example of someone who will answer a question someone poses with an actual solution to a problem that works, instead of just typing in standard training platitudes and whining about how everyone else is doing it wrong. So it is possible for people to type into the internet without empty hubris.

As for my opinion of the horse's situation?
It appears to be stating, for whatever reason, its lack of desire to continue with competitive dressage. Maybe it's sour, maybe its badly ridden, maybe it's well ridden but in pain, either way it doesn't seem to want to play anymore. Find some discipline it likes to do and do that. Or find some rider it likes and let them buy it. Or retire it and feed it carrots over the fence.
But it's not my horse and I have never met it or any of its people, so my above opinion really doesn't count for squat. I, for one, recognize that.

As for dalpal:
I too would be interested in a copy of the videos. I ride neither dressage nor western nor NH as my main discipline, but I'd be interested to see it nonetheless.

Eclectic Horseman
Nov. 16, 2007, 01:58 PM
Eclectic Horseman
But it's probably just a dog in a horse suit for tv anyway so who cares.


On this we can definitely agree. That's entertainment! To quote PT Barnum, there is a sucker born every minute. ;) :lol::lol:

Sandy M
Nov. 16, 2007, 02:18 PM
I agree with the above. However I see this more in Martha Josey (famous barrel racer) and Nancy Cahill (famous clinician and multiple world champion reiner and western rider) who still work on perfect cirlces, halts, alertness to aids, seat, balance (including Sally Swift examples) and many other things that we focus on in dressage. I dont see any of this in the NH trainers of the world.

Oh gosh, did I love Martha Josey's last big time barrel horse! What was his name? Orange Crush? He was a flashy 16.2 chestnut QH (must have been Appendix with some TB, I would think), and every time you saw him on tv during the NFR, the announcers would say, "Gorgeous horse - looks more like a WB than a Quarter Horse..., bet he'd make a jumper..."

dalpal
Nov. 16, 2007, 02:54 PM
Eclectic Horseman

It is RIDICULOUS for you to start posting that dalpal has "real fundamental ignorance" about dressage and is entirely clueless. Later on you guess that the owner of the horse is an adult amateur who spent a lot of money blah blah blah we have heard it all before. Any time any one has a problem with a horse, some person on the sidelines will INEVITABLY guess that it is somebody with more money than riding ability involved. Thank you for sharing with us the response that any 6 year old, regardless of riding ability or lack thereof, can type into COTH. Did you cut and paste from another thread or type it all anew?

Of course elsewhere in the post you claim somebody else is exhibiting "immature hubris".

Well, you must know, since you can diagnose all of these issues via internet text.

As for slc2:



*SNORT*

Well, once again we have a post in which slc2 talks about how wrong everyone else is doing it but fails to provide a video of him/herself fixing the horse in question.
Instead, we have a lot of talk about how

CC's methods would just exacerbate the problem

and

"For example, the rider needs to ride the horse into both reins, sit evenly, and use both legs, and if he doesn't get a response, back it up very quickly with leg, then whip, and keep the horse sharp and responding quickly to the aids. Too, he needs to reward the horse for obedience, and his riding needs to follow a very clear and simple program, with frequent rides, instruction when the rider gets into problems he can't solve himself, and having clear goals and a plan every time he gets on the horse."

Thank you, we are all literate here and can read the latest issue of Dressage Today without you typing it in the box for us.

I'm sure if slc2 were riding the horse, it wouldn't have this problem, because "there are no sour horses, only good riding and bad riding". I'm also sure the owner would be very grateful if you would step in and fix it, so by all means, go ahead.


Well, on this we agree. EH, take note.

But it's probably just a dog in a horse suit for tv anyway so who cares.

As for the contention that you must always stick with one discipline of training with a horse, I have to say that I forgot to ask Sithly what discipline she was speaking out of when she recommended a training technique for my hunter. Regardless of my forgetting to ask whether she was pulling from her cowboy repertoire, her dressage repetoire, or her huntseat repetoire (which I believe she has all three), I followed the advice she gave me when I described a problem I was having with my horse and asked for her help and it fixed a behavior problem pretty much immediately and gave me a very useful tool that has worked with many horses since. I will have to ask her to make sure I am not ruining my horses with the incorrect discipline anymore.

Of course, Sithly is an example of someone who will answer a question someone poses with an actual solution to a problem that works, instead of just typing in standard training platitudes and whining about how everyone else is doing it wrong. So it is possible for people to type into the internet without empty hubris.

As for my opinion of the horse's situation?
It appears to be stating, for whatever reason, its lack of desire to continue with competitive dressage. Maybe it's sour, maybe its badly ridden, maybe it's well ridden but in pain, either way it doesn't seem to want to play anymore. Find some discipline it likes to do and do that. Or find some rider it likes and let them buy it. Or retire it and feed it carrots over the fence.
But it's not my horse and I have never met it or any of its people, so my above opinion really doesn't count for squat. I, for one, recognize that.

As for dalpal:
I too would be interested in a copy of the videos. I ride neither dressage nor western nor NH as my main discipline, but I'd be interested to see it nonetheless.

Absolutely, you'll have to PM me in a few weeks to remind me.

Thank you very much for this post.

Chris Cox is a cutting horse/reiner.....he's a cowboy. I don't know why that makes him an evil Natural Horsemanship trainer....

Maybe some of you who are so opposed to NH can define what NH is to you. To me CC is simply a cutting horse/reiner/western trainer. I sent a rearer to a cowboy, the same cowboy that Mary Beth McLean sent her horses too...and yes, he is a cowboy but I wouldn't consider it NH...in the same light as PP sees NH.

So perhaps, I'm just not understanding why everyone is jumping on the antil NH wagon, when honestly, all I see is a western trainer working with a rearer and is trying to get the rearing out of the horse. :confused:

MyReality
Nov. 16, 2007, 02:54 PM
I haven't watched the show. I do not believe I will necessarily like what I see in the show, if I have watched it. My take it, I don't have to like to or even agree with it. The objective is to fix a dangerous behaviour. Having said that, it's hard to look at a GP horse not doing the GP stuff.

I want the horse to know rearing is NOT OK. He doesn't even want to try it, ever again. So what if he got a little sleepy and incorrect after the training? Nothing a good rider cannot fix... as long as he remembers not to rear. If he rears again, I am ready to use the cowboy method just to put it to rest, so we can move on. We have discussions on one rein stop before, I said the same thing, I don't use one rein stop in my training... but drastic problem call for drastic measure. If a horse bolts away and one rein stop will stop him, you bet I will use it even it is not dressage. I say the same thing about draw reins.

Do I think western and NH croses and dressage crosses? Not in many years to come. I have already said that in other NH type threads in the past. The three disciplines teach three different types of horses. But why do we need to be concerned about that? I don't recall we need to think, taking a problem horse to a western trainer, equates that horse being trained top to bottom in the western system, or equates to the owner must buy into the western disciplines, or equates to the marriage of two distinctly different systems, or does it means dressage is missing something, or dressage needs serious spanking from other disciplines!

Bluey
Nov. 16, 2007, 03:03 PM
---"Quote:
To run a horse frazzled around, to get it hyperalert to the demands of the rider and then keep it up until it is exhausted can work on some resistent horses, may also sore or even cripple them, that is a chance when overexercising."---



But not all NH is like that.

I didn't say NH is like that, was referring to the previously posted description of how CC was training that horse and commenting that such methods may be harmful.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Nov. 16, 2007, 03:23 PM
slc2, bluey, poltroon, elclectic horseman - great posts, Well stated!!!

What I like about dressage - at least, the way my trainer goes about it, and she is not alone in her view - is the whole idea is to make the horse physically better, but to do so in a way that relaxes and encourages him. Nothing should be done out of fear, or in resistance, or in discomfort. And it should be done so that when you finish for the day, the horse remembers good things, and won't be resistant when the next day's work comes along.

I may be one of those dressage riders who never rise above 2nd level. But you know what? I'll be doing solid second level, on a horse that is solidly at that level as well. Not riding from front to back, not using the inside rein to indicate direction. I don't care how far I get, as long as I get there correctly.

And by the way - my OTTB at 6 1/2 wore a 72. As we developed with dressage, he went to a 76, then a 78, now, at 15 1/2, he's an 80. Obviously he didn't change in length from withers to tail. And now you know why we went treeless!

grayarabpony
Nov. 16, 2007, 04:21 PM
For those of you who object to what CC is doing - what would be your plan for this horse?


Did anyone answer this question?

slc2
Nov. 16, 2007, 04:55 PM
I'll answer it. More clearly than it has already been, if it can't be understood based on the definitions of 'sour' from Eclectic and others.

Sign the owner up for lessons with a really good dressage instructor/trainer, and have the instructor train the horse while the owner watches and then rides first on a lesson horse and then on his/her own horse. Continue until it works, or sell the horse and get her something she can manage.

So many people get trained upper level horses thinking it's easy. They're wrong. This is how it ends.

To hell with scores and ribbons and awards, he highest complement you can pay ANY rider is, 'you have chosen a very appropriate horse for yourself'.

The horse isn't even that bad and nothing dramatic or other-discipline-guru-y is needed to fix this. Just lessons and plain old basic correct dressage. That's how it went wrong, because those things weren't done. At least not done with someone effective handling the situation.

IT's a very, very old song. You don't keep horsey up to the bridle and between your aids, horsey starts to rear. Some horses, sooner than others.

One thing I HAVE learned from a Western TV trainer, overmounting oneself is not something that is peculiar to dressage. The roping trainer on RFD got on there and said the same thing. She said the phenomenon is very widespread, and the typical victim is the middle aged women with distant and perhaps somewhat embellished memories of riding as a teen, who decides to rekindle that after many years of not riding, usually with a very romantically chosen horse that is far too much horse for them.

In that sense Western and dressage are VERY similar.

grayarabpony
Nov. 16, 2007, 05:56 PM
I meant more specifics than "go to a dressage instructor."

Sithly
Nov. 16, 2007, 06:01 PM
This has been an interesting thread. Seems like it's reaching the end of its natural lifespan, but there have been some good arguments.


What I like about dressage - at least, the way my trainer goes about it, and she is not alone in her view - is the whole idea is to make the horse physically better, but to do so in a way that relaxes and encourages him. Nothing should be done out of fear, or in resistance, or in discomfort. And it should be done so that when you finish for the day, the horse remembers good things, and won't be resistant when the next day's work comes along.

Funny, that's exactly why I like my trainer. :) He operates on the same principles, though he wears a cowboy hat every now and again (but mostly just a baseball cap).

Ambrey
Nov. 16, 2007, 06:07 PM
She said the phenomenon is very widespread, and the typical victim is the middle aged women with distant and perhaps somewhat embellished memories of riding as a teen, who decides to rekindle that after many years of not riding, usually with a very romantically chosen horse that is far too much horse for them.


OMG You've been reading my diary! :eek:

Bluey
Nov. 16, 2007, 06:51 PM
This has been an interesting thread. Seems like it's reaching the end of its natural lifespan, but there have been some good arguments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
What I like about dressage - at least, the way my trainer goes about it, and she is not alone in her view - is the whole idea is to make the horse physically better, but to do so in a way that relaxes and encourages him. Nothing should be done out of fear, or in resistance, or in discomfort. And it should be done so that when you finish for the day, the horse remembers good things, and won't be resistant when the next day's work comes along.




Funny, that's exactly why I like my trainer. :) He operates on the same principles, though he wears a cowboy hat every now and again (but mostly just a baseball cap).


That is what I tried to tell people in the PP system many years ago, that they had a good idea, if they do it in proven ways, watching not to bring defenses up in the horses they handle.
The response was: Handling a horse with finesse is for the higher levels.

My question is, why not do it teaching, not forcing and bringing on resistences, right from the start?:confused:

I am biased, because that is the way it was insisted we do things when I learned to work around horses, avoiding horses becoming uncomfortable with anything we ask of them.:yes:

Much as they know, I think there is still much some NH clinicians have to learn yet, to be considered very good, including CC.

dalpal
Nov. 16, 2007, 06:53 PM
Still waiting for the definition of Natural Horsemanship and why every man who wears a cowboy hat is considered by some a NH trainer.

Don't get it, sorry.

JSwan
Nov. 16, 2007, 07:04 PM
Still waiting for the definition of Natural Horsemanship and why every man who wears a cowboy hat is considered by some a NH trainer.

Don't get it, sorry.

It's a dressage thing; you wouldn't understand. ;):lol::D

dalpal
Nov. 16, 2007, 07:10 PM
It's a dressage thing; you wouldn't understand. ;):lol::D

So in other words, you can't answer my question.

Sithly
Nov. 16, 2007, 07:17 PM
I think that was a joke. :)

dalpal
Nov. 16, 2007, 07:20 PM
I think that was a joke. :)

I'm seriously just looking for an answer to that question....I"m not trying to be snarky or silly. :yes:

NoDQhere
Nov. 16, 2007, 07:21 PM
Did anyone answer this question?

I did. I said "FORWARD FORWARD FORWARD" - Backed up by proper use of legs and spurs and whip, leaving no doubt in the horse's mind that he MUST GO FORWARD. It's really not too complicated or all that difficult.

NoDQhere
Nov. 16, 2007, 07:31 PM
Still waiting for the definition of Natural Horsemanship and why every man who wears a cowboy hat is considered by some a NH trainer.

Don't get it, sorry.

Because the "infommercial cowboys" on TV all seem to be claiming to be "revolutionizing" horsemanship! Like they are the first ones to ever think like a horse or be able to read a horse. To us dressage gurus that has a NH ring to it, I guess :)

dalpal
Nov. 16, 2007, 07:38 PM
Because the "infommercial cowboys" on TV all seem to be claiming to be "revolutionizing" horsemanship! Like they are the first ones to ever think like a horse or be able to read a horse. To us dressage gurus that has a NH ring to it, I guess :)


I totally see that on PP's show....it's all about gimmacks..buy this, buy that, buy my video.

But the reason I tape CC is that he has never come across to the same way to me.

The only advertising he does is for his sponsors..a tractor company and a stall company and that's between segments.

The shows that I've watched him do lately are...Teaching a trail horse not to run on the trail, the dressage horse, working with a young foal to respect the human, a show dedicated to the working cow horse.....none of that is screaming "reinvention" to me.

I train with a classical dressage instructor...everything we do is classical. My mare was broke by a hunter/jumper trainer...so I really have no NH background. Just enjoy watching the shows on RFD and you never know when there might be a piece here or there that might come in handy one day...I don't understand why folks think that's dishonoring my dressagehood, so to speak.

Bluey
Nov. 16, 2007, 07:53 PM
---"I train with a classical dressage instructor...everything we do is classical. My mare was broke by a hunter/jumper trainer...so I really have no NH background. Just enjoy watching the shows on RFD and you never know when there might be a piece here or there that might come in handy one day...I don't understand why folks think that's dishonoring my dressagehood, so to speak."---

I also spent my life watching anything with a hint of horse in it, from westerns to RFD-TV when it started.
I slacked off the last few years, since much seems a rehash of old stuff.
We can learn so much from watching horses, no matter where.
When it comes to commenting on what we see, then we need to filter that thru our experiences, to give it meaning for us.

That is what is being discussed in here, I think.

dalpal
Nov. 16, 2007, 07:57 PM
---"I train with a classical dressage instructor...everything we do is classical. My mare was broke by a hunter/jumper trainer...so I really have no NH background. Just enjoy watching the shows on RFD and you never know when there might be a piece here or there that might come in handy one day...I don't understand why folks think that's dishonoring my dressagehood, so to speak."---

I also spent my life watching anything with a hint of horse in it, from westerns to RFD-TV when it started.
I slacked off the last few years, since much seems a rehash of old stuff.
We can learn so much from watching horses, no matter where.
When it comes to commenting on what we see, then we need to filter that thru our experiences, to give it meaning for us.
That is what is being discussed in here, I think.

It is from my end. :yes: Maybe it's because I just got RFD TV and this is all new to me..actually having horse shows on TV to watch. Some are entertaining, some are helpful, and some I have no interest in....including some of the other cowboys on RFD. I just like CC's show, enjoy Tommy Garland's as well. Heck, I even record Dressage Unlimited when it actually comes on..LOL! Loved the Wayne Channon segements...found some very valuable info there as well :yes:

kayla
Nov. 16, 2007, 07:59 PM
That said, I've watched the second show in this series and I have to say that this training for the horse is unlikely to have helped that horse's dressage. I'm not sure that CC has a good concept of what is considered "soft" to dressage folks.


I've not seen the show but based on comments from those who have -- he isn't trying to help the horse's dressage skills. He's trying to fix a behavioral vice.

I can't imagine CC would even suggest that he could teach dressage. In the same way, Juan Matute isn't going to teach cutting! :no:

But CC most certainly knows how to deal with a ring-sour, rearing horse. And I don't think that issue is limited to one's particular riding discipline nor are the solutions going to be discipline-specific.

p.s. I don't know any dressage trainers that would be willing to take on things like rearing and bucking. Most would rather send those problems to the cowboys.

BoyleHeightsKid
Nov. 16, 2007, 08:40 PM
I've not seen the show but based on comments from those who have -- he isn't trying to help the horse's dressage skills. He's trying to fix a behavioral vice.

I can't imagine CC would even suggest that he could teach dressage. In the same way, Juan Matute isn't going to teach cutting! :no:

But CC most certainly knows how to deal with a ring-sour, rearing horse. And I don't think that issue is limited to one's particular riding discipline nor are the solutions going to be discipline-specific.

p.s. I don't know any dressage trainers that would be willing to take on things like rearing and bucking. Most would rather send those problems to the cowboys.

Amen!!!! Try opening your minds...you might learn something.

JSwan
Nov. 16, 2007, 09:21 PM
I've not seen the show but based on comments from those who have -- he isn't trying to help the horse's dressage skills. He's trying to fix a behavioral vice.

I can't imagine CC would even suggest that he could teach dressage. In the same way, Juan Matute isn't going to teach cutting! :no:

But CC most certainly knows how to deal with a ring-sour, rearing horse. And I don't think that issue is limited to one's particular riding discipline nor are the solutions going to be discipline-specific.

p.s. I don't know any dressage trainers that would be willing to take on things like rearing and bucking. Most would rather send those problems to the cowboys.]


That's my take on this whole thing as well. Need to remember to TiVo that show to see what all the fuss is about.

grayarabpony
Nov. 16, 2007, 09:32 PM
I did. I said "FORWARD FORWARD FORWARD" - Backed up by proper use of legs and spurs and whip, leaving no doubt in the horse's mind that he MUST GO FORWARD. It's really not too complicated or all that difficult.

Snort. I said that too. According to some of the dressage divas on this board, however it is complicated and difficult -- it's DRESSAGE.

:lol:

meupatdoes
Nov. 16, 2007, 09:36 PM
slc2, bluey, poltroon, elclectic horseman - great posts, Well stated!!!

What I like about dressage - at least, the way my trainer goes about it, and she is not alone in her view - is the whole idea is to make the horse physically better, but to do so in a way that relaxes and encourages him. Nothing should be done out of fear, or in resistance, or in discomfort. And it should be done so that when you finish for the day, the horse remembers good things, and won't be resistant when the next day's work comes along.
Yes. Dressage is definitely the only discipline that feels nothing should be done out of fear, or in resistance, or in discomfort. These are all things you like specifically about dressage, as opposed to those other disciplines. Somehow I think I could write exactly the same thing but start out, "What I like about riding horses half decently is..."



I may be one of those dressage riders who never rise above 2nd level. But you know what? I'll be doing solid second level, on a horse that is solidly at that level as well. Not riding from front to back, not using the inside rein to indicate direction. I don't care how far I get, as long as I get there correctly.
Dressage apparently has also cornered the market on doing things 'correctly'.
Please, while you're at it, let me know from your infinite horsemanship wisdom how you would go about dealing with an obnoxiously mouthy horse. Sithly wrote me two paragraphs on this that flat out fixed the problem when I carefully followed the detailed instructions, but I'd still like to learn how to do it "correctly". And how would you fix the horse CC is working with "correctly", again?



So many people get trained upper level horses thinking it's easy. They're wrong. This is how it ends.

Once again with the assumption that, because the horse is having a difficulty, the owner must be a rich amateur with no clue. Of course, if someone like YOU was riding the horse, it would go no problemo.



The horse isn't even that bad and nothing dramatic or other-discipline-guru-y is needed to fix this.
Well for crying out loud stop your yapping and start your riding all ready. Hop on and show us! Enlighten us all. Since it's not that bad and you don't even need to be a guru. Maybe we can all watch YOU on tv.



At least not done with someone effective handling the situation.
What's that I see? I think your personal bat-signal just went off. They need "someone effective" to ride to the rescue!



IT's a very, very old song. You don't keep horsey up to the bridle and between your aids, horsey starts to rear. Some horses, sooner than others.

Maybe it's an old song because you keep singing it on the COTH boards. Why show us when you can type us? In the meantime, I'll wait for every single western horse to start rearing. Also, my lovely grey horse goes on the buckle on the trails and sometimes even does whole schools on the buckle in the arena -yep! including things like turns on the haunches (don't worry, I don't dream of labelling them 'correct'). Please let me know when he is going to start standing up and waving hello because he's not being kept up to the bridle.



I did. I said "FORWARD FORWARD FORWARD" - Backed up by proper use of legs and spurs and whip, leaving no doubt in the horse's mind that he MUST GO FORWARD. It's really not too complicated or all that difficult.
Well, if it's really that uncomplicated and not all that difficult, you should definitely go with slc2 to show CC (and the horse's idiot rich owner) how to ride it down centerline. Not to mention the rest of us, because I for one am DYING to see how that would play out.
Once again a fabulous example of a training platitude any 6 yo who reads Young Rider can regurgitate into COTH. Like, FORWARD is IMPORTANT???!! Again, we can read Dressage Today without your help, thanks.

What would be useful would be an example, drawn from your own experience with one (or many) horses that you helped work through this or a similar problem, explaining how you managed to diagnose it and go about fixing it.

I'd also, on a slight tagent, be interested in YOUR two paragraphs of detailed instruction in how I should have fixed my formerly very mouthy horse, complete with steps tailored to different phases of the process.
The problem, for the record, DID end up being quite uncomplicated and not at all difficult to solve, so I'm sure you will be able to write an exegesis on the correct way to do it, right down to the body language I can expect to see from my horse throughout the process. (I'm sure I can predict a vague lecture on the horse 'needing to respect me and my space' or whatever.)

It would be nice if more of the most prolific posters on this board let their horsemanship, instead of their typing fingers, do the walking. Maybe y'all could try focusing more on posting from your own personal experience with similar horses instead of cut and pasting into COTH. Especially since the solutions are so BASIC and SIMPLE and the horse in question isn't even that difficult.

If cutting and pasting text equaled being able to RIDE that text, we'd all be Jane Savoie.

kayla
Nov. 16, 2007, 10:41 PM
If cutting and pasting text equaled being able to RIDE that text, we'd all be Jane Savoie.

Dying laughing here! Can I quote that?

NoDQhere
Nov. 16, 2007, 11:03 PM
Well it seems as though "us dressage people" are doomed unless we agree with those touting the "amazingness" of the cowboy trainers.

I'm sorry meupatdoes if you don't understand FORWARD as a solution to rearing. Not complicated. Not all that difficult. Heck, even the racehorse trainers I worked for eons ago knew that!

I have been involved in curing many rearers in my lifetime. With every single one of them, I rode them forward. Sometimes with a lot of use of voice, legs, spurs, whip, whatever was necessary. And I never had a horse go over backwards either. They didn't rear when they went "home" either. My SO and I both grew up reschooling "spoiled" horses and "breaking colts".
As we have both gotten older, we (for the most part) work only with horses from our own breeding program. We train using classical dressage principles because it works. For the record, neither of us have ever had a horse get sour.

As I said earlier in this thread, CC is a good horseman. Maybe he will cure the rearing. However I don't feel that the way he is riding this horse is what would be best for this horse. The jerking on the mouth and flopping the horse into the fence, ect. IMO, is not addressing why the horse won't go forward, resulting in the rearing. I am entitled to my opinion, you know.

As to your mouthy horse. Do you mean mouthy as in nipping and biting? If so a small wire brush or nail held so the horse bumps it when he tries to nip, is usually enough to discourage most horses. But I must admit that I don't have much experience with this as nipping is something we never allow to get started. If you meant mouthy as in issues accepting the bit, try different bits until your horse tells you he is comfortable. Pretty simple.

If my horsemanship is so important to you, I grew up "western", won a lot in "western" events and then discovered "english". I evented through Intermediate level. My SO is a USDF Bronze, Silver and Gold Medallist on a horse we trained, ourselves. There is more on the website if you care to read it.

FancyFree
Nov. 17, 2007, 12:43 AM
The gimmicky cowboys can be pretty scary. My stables is having a horsemanship clinic this weekend with a cowboy type. My turnout lady came by to tell me how he "broke" some woman's Arab in one session today. This horse had never been backed. Apparently he just threw a saddle on her and hopped on. :eek: My turn out lady then suggested he work on my three year. Uh, no. Baby will be "broke" in a slow and steady fashion. (I really dislike the word "broke" in the horse training context.) Anyway "broke" in one session? That's just crazy. The lady and her horse walked by later. This horse didn't look more than two years old. Maybe it was older, but it was teeny tiny. Totally dripping in sweat, looked run through the mill. I didn't see the session so I can't say what exactly happened. My thought at the time was that it was pretty stressful for this horse. These clinics bug me. I've seen a few times now where people go expecting a quick fix, the well-being of the horse be damned.

meupatdoes
Nov. 17, 2007, 04:48 AM
I'm sorry meupatdoes if you don't understand FORWARD as a solution to rearing. Not complicated. Not all that difficult. Heck, even the racehorse trainers I worked for eons ago knew that!
Congratulations on an absolutely TEXTBOOK illustration of my point. It is not that I (or anyone else here, I suspect), don't understand that forward is the solution to rearing. Yes, rearing is the ultimate evasion of the forward aids (who knew?). Yes, if the horse is going forward, it can't stand up on its back legs (basic logic, there, right?)

My point, in case it wasn't clear enough before, is that it is much easier to type the theory in the box than to APPLY it with all horses. Maybe you are phenomenally gifted and have never met a horse you couldn't fix. For my part, I will freely and gladly admit that, while I am generally accepted by the professionals I've trained with and the people I've tried to help out with their issues on an amateur level to ride well, and while I've had much more success than failure, there have definitely been horses where, try as I might, I just couldn't get them past whatever hump. For example, I UNDERSTAND that forward is the key, but I also know from experience that there have been times where I just could not get a rearer to actually GO forward, no matter what I tried in what any bystanders will say was a valiant effort over six months of working with that horse. (Not referring to my horse here. He has only balked out on the trail when I asked him to walk instead of gallop, choosing to say "If I can't run, I won't go AT ALL." He has no such issues in the ring, so avoiding the trails in the future was a fine solution for me. So sue me.)

So maybe in your vast experience you have never met a horse that it was really difficult to SUCCESSFULLY APPLY a standard theory to (again, the difference between cut and pasting the text and being able to ride it is the application) but I suspect you have, but prefer to post in a holier than thou manner that it would be SO EASY because the theory is SO OBVIOUS and not that difficult for them to fix it. Citing the appropiate theory IS easy. Applying it is sometimes another story. I have a healthy respect for the fact that some horses are much harder than others and I will not be shooting off my mouth about how that big warmblood on the tv should be so uncomplicated to fix.

I am not arguing that dressage is bad, or NH is better or whatever. My point is that some people on this thread post as if they have never met a difficult horse in their lives. They see a rider having an issue, jump to the conclusion that the rider MUST be an idiot, and then invariably comment from on high that the problem shouldn't be THAT hard to fix if they would only understand SIMPLE concepts. Well, maybe you've never ridden a difficult horse (either that or you just post like all your horses have always been easy), but it would be nice to see a little more understanding that sometimes, it's difficult for even good riders to work out a problem with a certain horse.

I at the very least have enough experience to know that not every horse can be shown the book and asked to read paragraph 4 on page 29. I have not been able to fix every horse I've ever ridden. (Maybe you have, you certainly post that way). Because of this, you don't see me posting how BASIC and SIMPLE the solution is, and that a horse I have never met wouldn't be all that complicated or difficult to fix. Even if a rider DID happen to be a less experienced horseperson who was probably the root of the problem (as everyone has jumped to the conclusion that the owner of the CC dressage horse must be) and they were having some sort of problem (for example, a re-rider who can't get her lazier horse to trot- EASY PICKIN'S PEOPLE! Go ahead, JUMP ON HER ASS.), I personally wouldn't go up to her and be like, "Oh come on. You need HELP getting your horse to trot? It's so EASY. Just insist he go FORWARD. Duh. Do you not get basic concepts?" That sort of behavior adds nothing to any training/horsemanship dialogue and serves only further the pursuit of the statement maker's own ego. Sadly, that sort of behavior has been on prominent display in this thread.



As to your mouthy horse. Do you mean mouthy as in nipping and biting? If so a small wire brush or nail held so the horse bumps it when he tries to nip, is usually enough to discourage most horses. But I must admit that I don't have much experience with this as nipping is something we never allow to get started.

While I appreciate your use of the phrase, "is usually enough to discourage most horses" because it implies some room for the fact that some horses might be more difficult than others, I love the end of this quote because it is the same, "Well, this isn't a problem *I* have ever had because it is *beneath someone of my level to have it* approach that you have demonstrated elsewhere in this thread. Newsflash: sometimes people get horses from other people, and haven't raised their horse from birth. So posting that YOU never allow such things to get started isn't helpful to a person who is retraining a horse someone else started (It's actually not helpful to someone who is trying to fix the problem in a horse they bred either.) But again, feel free to assume that I am an idiot and employ your generally holier than thou posting technique.

I did in fact employ your idea, to no success. (Probably I was doing it wrong, though. I'd gotten to work on other horses before, so I'm not saying it doesn't work ever, just that the solution wasn't so simple with this horse.) It was when that method (among others) failed to work and I was at my wits end that I emailed Sithly. For both my and my horse's (and subsequent horses') sakes, I'm glad that Sithly didn't treat me like I must have CAUSED the problem and it was the EASIEST solution in the world and insist that HER horses don't have this problem because SHE trains them correctly.

Actually, your horsemanship is less of an issue to me than the way you go about posting about it.

slc2
Nov. 17, 2007, 07:19 AM
There is something very strange in a person's process of logical thinking, that takes 'training problems are caused by very basic things, they can be fixed by adhering to those basics, and how the horse goes is an expression of how he is ridden' (and of course, how he was previously ridden, his temperament, etc.), and takes that and twists it around into 'you're saying this is all my fault! how mean, i'm taking horsey and going HOME!!'

the point isn't at all whose 'fault' it is, rather, it is that you can very often develop the ability to resolve these problems.

it is that by adhering to basic principles, without any fancy new sounding guru-trainer, just by adhering to those basics, you can fix this. (of course, a more experienced trainer who knows those basics may help you to get there, but nevertheless).

"I'm sure I can predict a vague lecture on the horse 'needing to respect me and my space' or whatever."

You're not as clever as you sound - unfortunately, with inexperienced people, seeking to find a way to deal with horse riding and handling problems, clever writing, and clever talk, rather than plain old knowledge, very often carries the day. And many people will read your rap and say, 'hey, that makes a lotta sense!' simply because it is clever and ascerbic.

That's one big problem with tv trainers, and with tthe internet in general. On the internet, the one with the cleverest-sounding rap wins. If it's critical of someone or nasty sounding, so much the better, it's even more appealing. This, rather than not herding cattle with their horses, is what erodes rider's horsemanship these days.

The reason the statement sounded like it was 'cut and pasted from' (some magazine) is that for once, there was an article in a magazine that emphasized the basic facts of horsemanship.

These facts never change, and therefore, when these basics are emphasized, people complain that they're repetitive.

That's a problem with people's riding and learning, in any type of riding. That they want something razzle dazzle and new sounding, instead of the simple basics that actually work.

Some tv trainers have mastered the idea of putting spin and bullshit around what is essentially basics, so that it SOUNDS new, but is just dressed basics - dressed up to appeal to the masses. Most of them have long, long ago moved away from that, mostly because their own egoes have gotten so much to be the most important thing going on.

Chris Cox is more down to earth and he has a better rap, he can do that because he's young and cute. Trouble is, he still jerks the horse around and spurs and spins and all that crap. I don't like that. You do? Enjoy yourself.

But don't tell me what to like or what opinions to have, because I am not going to listen to you, because you're full of crap and venom and very little of substance to say except for clever sounding insults.

My response here on some technical points in dressage is not for your benefit or to debate with you. I don't care what you think, you're a lost cause.

It's for the assistance of some more receptive minds who may have been completely confused by your clever comments, and now wonder what the hell they're doing and why we do in dressage what we do, and why the tv guru-trainer methods don't work in dressage.

Of course, we always come back to this basic problem - I don't want to spin and jerk and rubberneck my horse like Chris does. I don't like having my horse twist around like that. Aside from putting unneccessary strain on his lower legs, ankles and feet, it destroys the basis of collection (the base of the neck), and it goes against a very basic tenet I've been taught since I could pick up the reins - 'the more the flexion, the less the collection'.

These methods, taking the head around, taking the hind quarters away from the line of travel, this violates everything we try to do in dressage. IT drops the connection, and it stops the circle of the aids.

We spend YEARS getting the horse's hind quarters straight behind him, down to the smallest milimeter, WHY would I EVER do something that goes against that, even for the briefest of corrections?

I'm about developing the horse's power through straightness and forwardness, not by taking his straightness away from him.

What gives a dressage horse power? What's Number 1? What enables him to canter around a pivot and never put a foot down and hold it in place and pivot on it?

Power. What gives him that power?

In large part, Straightness. A kind of straightness found in no other sort of riding. To a degree found in no other sort of riding. Years ago I was in a lesson and my trainer kept saying, the horse needs to be straighter. I was working on that very hard. A western rider, a hunt seat rider, a saddle seat rider, my boyfriend and my best friend, are watching the lesson. NONE of them can see how the horse is crooked. The hunt seat rider says, 'What a pointless lesson, the horse wasn't crooked, your trainer is f****** nuts!' No, not to her was the horse crooked, because she's looking for a horse with his haunches with a 45 degree angle to the track. WE'RE looking for a horse who's hind foot is ONE HALF AN INCH in off the track from his front leg.

Not only that, but the training level horse isn't as straight as the upper level horse. As time goes on, the horse is straighter. It just keeps improving and improving, right along with the horse's power. This sort of straightness isn't even an issue in other forms of riding. I look at saddle seat horses, gaited horses, western horses, every other sort of horse, and they are CROOKED. Compared to what we're trying to achieve in dressage, yes they are. There is no other form of riding that emphasizes this to the degree dressage does. What's ok in another form of riding is disastrous to progress in dressage.

You don't believe in these old tenets? Guess what? I don't care. I am not interested in the pointless runaround of discussing it with you.

I don't stick around and debate and debate with people like you because, when it gets down to it, if you can't have an open mind and the spirit that allows you to try out new ideas, I can't change that in you.

I am not interested in spending 200 posts with you beating my head against a brick wall with someone with a completely closed mind. If someone doesn't want to learn, that's fairly obvious. Why bother trying to discuss anything with someone who makes it so obvious that they aren't going to listen or even consider or think about it, except to pick it apart in order to find some way to criticize it?

You like the tv guru-trainers? You do? Fine, go ahead. I don't care. It's your horse.

The thing the TV trainers rely on is having a clever sounding rap. You've got that down real good - insulting anyone who challenges you, too, you got that down real good as well.

One thing you can't do, though, is read my mind, so don't try. Or stop trying, because that's what you're trying to do. Don't bother.

The entire concept of the horse 'needing to respect me and my space', I've seen played out far too many times by tv trainers and tv trainer fans.

I had to run to the barn owner's house and try to get her to stop the barn manager beating a little perfect-to-pick-on sized 3 yr old horse with a stock whip, to 'teach her her space', and later the barn manager cornered me in the tack room, got me up against a wall in a corner, pinned me there, and told me that i better keep what I saw to myself, and that I knew nothing about 'teaching a horse to respect my space', and that is what she was doing - beating that horse with a whip, for fifteen minutes straight.

Now I'm sure someone is going to shout, 'Why didn't you stop her yourself, you ******* coward!'

Because she weighed twice what I weighed, was about six feet tall, and had a whip in her hand.

Senselessly, pointlessly, stupidly, while the terrified little animal trembled and cowered in the corner with its eyes all white. Whipped that little thing like an old pair of pants. There were plenty of pushier horses in the barn, but they were bigger, and at least two of them would have turned and kicked her head off, and I think she knew that.

When she was done it was covered with hives and welts and was drenched in sweat. She walked away and said, 'That was a good lesson for her, now she understands the concept of my personal space' (that according to another boarder, i was up at the barn owners house at that point).

Talk about cutting and pasting. I went home and heard exactly the same words on a NH horseman video the same night.

And the Barn Owner, when we called a group meeting, was so much in the thrall of the smooth-talkin' barn manager, who could quote all the Tv trainers to prove why what she was doing was so valid and so sacred, that she told us the gal would NEVER just stand there and beat a horse with a whip for 15 minutes straight.

What was wrong was that we MISUNDERSTOOD HER TRAINING PHILOSOPHY, so don't effing tell me that I'm going to to make a speech about teaching a horse personal space and all that crap, because I don't believe in it - not that it is taught by some high drama, by the whipping and screaming I've seen the Disciples do, OR by the spinning the horse around and all the drama you see on the TV shows.

I think that crap is abusive, frankly, and no, if you're now planning to shout that I spoil my horses, you'd be wrong there too, actually, so don't even start. My horses are very well behaved - WITHOUT yerking them around.

As for training a rearer, yes, I have done that. And it was pretty bad, too.

How was the horse retrained? Not by gimmicks, not by some clever rap from some spin doctor.

By going forward. Very, very simple.

You don't think it will work, I suppose, because you don't understand forward, or how horses rear.

To rear, a horse has to stop or slow down. He has to, to some degree, break his rhythm. He has to, to some degree, assuming the rider is encouraging him to go forward, disobey those forward aids.

The same is true of bucking, which is why the remedy for bucking is ALSO going forward.

And yes, it is because of poor training that rearing happens. Not always the rider who has the horse at the time of course, but he's still the one who has to deal with it.

The horse was doing this when I got him. And unless he went forward into the bridle, he would do this. REALLY forward into the bridle, every moment. ANd yes, by simply following that very, very basic principle, he was broken of it.

He was not just lifting his forefeet. He was vertical to the ground. Real big time. My trainer would not get on him, and no, not because she was a chicken shit dressage trainer, as some of you are going to immediately shout.

She didn't get on him because she knew it had to be me who did this or I would never be able to ride the horse again. It does no good if the trainer can ride the horse. That doesn't help the owner.

Though at times, he would just barely lift his forefeet, as an implied threat - don't make me go away from the barn, or it will be ten times worse, was the threat. He did has little as he had to to get his way. His way could be as brief as a single second of the rider not responding. One single half a second of delay, of surprise, of hesitation, of fear, before putting the horse forward, undid the entire correction.

One has to be quick. If as most horses do the horse stiffens his neck as he rears he has to be 'doubled' (more old school) in a circle, and THEN made forward. But timing is of the essence, as doubling can cause a horse that's actually up to fall on his side, a la movie stunt.

It's not for the faint of heart. What one has to do is extremely simple, but that doesn't make it easy. IT also works. My horse stopped rearing.

But that's why people so very, very much want the solution to be breaking an egg on the horse's head, or tieing his head to his tail, or playing Pachabel's Canon in the barn, or a feed supplement. BEcause what actually works takes very fast reactions, it takes courage, and it takes well, balls, to coin a phrase. By that I mean it takes admitting to oneself that one's own riding is the root of everything. That means taking responsibility for how the horse goes and behaves, in a very, very basic, simple way. No gimmicks, no guru-trainers or special saddles or supplements to hide behind. Just the horse and the horse's owner.

And my trainer and I sat down and we talked about this, essentially what he said is this:

"When people have a training or riding problem with their horse, they want it to be something really mystical and complicated, they HAVE to go to some guru-trainer, because if they don't, they are admitting that THEY caused the problem, by plain old bad riding. They can't do this, because it's a blow to their egoes. YES, there are rearers that can't be fixed, YES, there are rearers that will never get any better. They need to be put to sleep. But most rearers - MOST of them, this is a very, very simple matter. People don't want ANY training problem to be because of their bad riding. They will re-break the horse starting with the halter, saying he had a bad foal-hood, shop for a saddle, a supplement, a guru-trainer to fix this mysterious problem. That isn't the solution, but that's what people WANT it to be, because to them, the idea that they can fix this by improving the most basic, simple things in their riding - it's just repulsive to them'.

Your 'mouthy' horse, if he's biting you on the ground, needs to be punished for that. People vary in how they view 'punishment' and very often, the beauty of the TV trainer is he gives people something that he claims is not a punishment, or it's 'natural', or it's old cowboy style, so it's easy for them to swallow. It may not be effective - that's not important. The important thing is that it's easy to swallow.

A few horses, who are nipping a little because the owner constantly feeds treats, will simply stop if not hand-fed. A few other horses, who are aggressively playing, need to be punished a few times and they will stop. Other horses are totally spoiled after years of being allowed to bite and push their owners. We did have a horse like this that was very dangerous. Nothing stopped him, punishment, ignoring him, nothing. Dozens of trainers had their fifteen TV minutes with him. Nothing worked.

That happens sometimes too. But most cases, they are easy to fix.

"Mouthy" in the bridle? Again, incorrect riding. Some horses are harder to ride correctly than others. Some horses have defective temperaments, and are impossible to get quiet on the bit no matter how skilled the rider is. But most - most, no, it can be fixed.

This all makes you SO ANGRY because you weren't able to deal with it, if I may indulge in some mind reading of my own? So you HAVE to get rabid when someone criticizes the tv training-guru, because that's how you preserve your ego - with the idea that these training problems REQUIRE a guru with a brand new method, rather than just better basic riding and handling.

That's where the tv training-guru gets his mojo. From people who HAVE to believe in him.

So you're a fan. So you start foaming at the mouth when someone doesn't like your handsome tv star trainer in a cowboy hat. Cry me a river.

dalpal
Nov. 17, 2007, 08:10 AM
The gimmicky cowboys can be pretty scary. My stables is having a horsemanship clinic this weekend with a cowboy type. My turnout lady came by to tell me how he "broke" some woman's Arab in one session today. This horse had never been backed. Apparently he just threw a saddle on her and hopped on. :eek: My turn out lady then suggested he work on my three year. Uh, no. Baby will be "broke" in a slow and steady fashion. (I really dislike the word "broke" in the horse training context.) Anyway "broke" in one session? That's just crazy. The lady and her horse walked by later. This horse didn't look more than two years old. Maybe it was older, but it was teeny tiny. Totally dripping in sweat, looked run through the mill. I didn't see the session so I can't say what exactly happened. My thought at the time was that it was pretty stressful for this horse. These clinics bug me. I've seen a few times now where people go expecting a quick fix, the well-being of the horse be damned.


LOL! So true...and believe it or not, I had a "dressage instructor" (I put that in quotations because if I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't called this person a dressage anything) do the exact same thing :eek:

Horse came to barn...instructor/trainer was sooo impressed with horse's manners that this person just threw a saddle on the horse and hopped right on up there and with nothing on her head for protection either....luckily enough the horse was good natured enough not to hurt her.

egontoast
Nov. 17, 2007, 08:33 AM
You're not as clever as you sound - unfortunately, with inexperienced people, seeking to find a way to deal with horse riding and handling problems, clever writing, and clever talk, rather than plain old knowledge, very often carries the day. And many people will read your rap and say, 'hey, that makes a lotta sense!' simply because it is clever and ascerbic.



You have described yourself to a T , slc. TAKE YOUR OWN ADVICE. Uninformed people seem to take to your gift of the gab but that has nothing to do with actual experience, skill and talent, does it? I think you must agree based on your quote above.

Wow! You nailed it. Who cares what your anonymous trainer says? Clever talk, clever writing carries the day, as you have pointed out.

dalpal
Nov. 17, 2007, 08:43 AM
SLC..but what if you had to stop the owner from beating the horse with a German made dressage whip? Would that have been any different.

I know of a couple big name, people ewww and ahhhh over people, who have left bloody whip marks on their horses during their training and yes, these were FEI BNTs who I had the "joy" of boarding with for a few months years ago.

Clients would bring in these fancy horses to be under the BNT.....When they weren't around and BNT was in a mood, this guy would take it out on the horses BIG TIME. It was ugly and it didn't matter if someone confronted this person or not (And yes, one of my friends had it out with him). All of us had left except one..who stayed behind because they were helping her with a very large warmblood that they helped her find....she was overmatched from the getgo..but she was buying into them and their methods.

The final straw..she was in a lesson with Trainer A with no stirrups, getting yelled at over this big horse..when BNT B (the one I was referring to) got really angry because she was in his way...Cussed at her and then took his whip and cracked it over her horse's back...sending the horse galloping around the ring with a small lady and no stirrups. :eek: She got in her car, drove to my friend's new barn and they told her they'd find room for her..go get her horse.

My point in posting this is......there are nasty, mean horse people in the world no matter what discipline you are in. So to lump all of the cowboys in the "evil" group because someone you knew had a stock whip out ready to hit a horse, isn't fair. I certainly don't lump all dressage trainers in the same catagory as this BNT as I know most are not like this..thank god! But there are bad seeds in this discipline as well. Luckily, that BNT is no longer in the area.

I do agree with you....if someone wants to watch a cowboy on TV train a horse, that's their business and no one needs to be crucified for doing it.

I do agree wtih Meupatdoes....not every horse falls into the textbook catagory..just doesn't. I've had one of the ones who doesn't fall into textbook "Just put your leg on and go forward" Yeah, well. this horse could stop on a dime from the canter and stand up..with my leg on her, whip and spur aids in use....she didn't care, she just stood up higher. Granted, I am an amateur, I don't profess to be a profesional and did rehome her with a professional trainer (wasn't a cowboy either), took a year of work with this horse, but she is now a jumper. I so relieved that they got her going and into a job...but know what, when that lady sold her, she sold her to a professional jumper..not an amateur...that horse was simply NOT an amateur's horse.

I'm not going to crucify anyone for sending a horse to a cowboy, I'm not going to crucify anyone for watching a cowboy show. As I told my trainer the other day, you never know, might just learn something to help in the event I ever have another horse stand up while I'm riding. So, if that makes me the "mayor of major shutdownville"..too darn bad.

I certainly don't profess to know it all or know everyone's indivdiual situation...I the point is.....Why do some of the posters feel that they can sit back in their arm chairs and judge so harshly when, as far as I know, no one has ever met this owner or horse in day to day life.

I don't care if you don't like CC or not..that's fine...but to sit here and blast everyone who doesn't get offended by a stetson is outrageous.

Do I think western and dressage are alike..no. Have I ever even ridden in a western saddle...maybe 3 times in my life. Do I care if it's a western trainer or dressage trainer who can stop a horse from a dangerous habit...no I do not, I'd chose the one I felt was more qualified in that personal situation.

But if some of you, not all, feel better about your dressagehood by blasting anyone who says...hey, I see nothing wrong with a cowboy fixing a dressage horse who rears, then to each his own. ;)

NoDQhere
Nov. 17, 2007, 09:24 AM
Oh my, like I said, if us "horrible dressage people" don't agree, we catch hell :sleepy: This is still the "DRESSAGE" forum, isn't it??????:confused:

Carry on........

~Freedom~
Nov. 17, 2007, 09:32 AM
I'm sorry meupatdoes if you don't understand FORWARD as a solution to rearing. Not complicated. Not all that difficult. Heck, even the racehorse trainers I worked for eons ago knew that!




Maybe forward is the key to MOST rearers but it is NOT the only cure. As meupatdoes stated if you hit a brick wall with a rearer that WON'T go forward you have to be a lot sneakier. Of one horse I know that had a cold back would NOT GO FORWARD no matter which way you asked or demanded. Only by relaxing the back in a series of lateral movements ( crossed hind legs cannot initiate a rear) did the problem get solved.

The key to any rearer or sour horse is to find out WHY then apply the bandages.

dalpal
Nov. 17, 2007, 09:34 AM
Oh my, like I said, if us "horrible dressage people" don't agree, we catch hell :sleepy: This is still the "DRESSAGE" forum, isn't it??????:confused:

Carry on........

Yes, it IS a dressage forum and some of us who ride dressage are watching a show with a GP dressage horse....I don't see Erin shutting the thread down, so why do some of you feel the need to police the forum...the last time I checked, Erin is the only moderator.

There are a gazillion threads on this forum...if I see a thread that I don't care to read, I simply just don't open it....is it really that hard????:confused:

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Nov. 17, 2007, 09:55 AM
meupatdoes - I'm sorry you took my comments out of context. I said, "This is why I like dressage," because, after all, I am posting on a dressage forum in response to people who were discussing the TV episode where they felt the work done was not done in the kind of atmosphere I described.

However, that being said - and why I harp so much about reading the classics - these are the points the masters have all emphasized. Not so much about counting strides, finding a line, doing whatever you do for reining or cutting, or even one tempi changes.

In my business - you always, always - stand on the shoudlers of those who come before you. It is why, when you write a manuscript for publication in a journal, you write a brief, pertinant review of the literature and then describe what you are bringing to the table. But you always acknowledge the work that has gone before - even if you disagree - and I don't think there's a graduate program in the biomedical sciences that doesn't start out their first year students at least in part by having them read what we now consider classic papers. Those are elegant papers, groundbreaking papers. I feel the same way about the classical dressage masters. They each contributed to their passion, but our work rests upon theirs.

PP et al didn't invent this stuff. Maybe some were independent, confirming observations, but the groundwork was there already. It would be just like me stealing someone's published data and touting it as my own, and patenting it. Just ain't riight.

~Freedom~
Nov. 17, 2007, 10:18 AM
But you always acknowledge the work that has gone before

It is the honorable thing to do to acknowledge any source of information that you used, but this applies stronger when you post information dug up from already posted or published works via books or the internet.

Attempts to present it as your own thoughts is plagiarism.

meupatdoes
Nov. 17, 2007, 12:01 PM
I don't stick around and debate and debate with people like you because, when it gets down to it, if you can't have an open mind and the spirit that allows you to try out new ideas, I can't change that in you.
You, if I may say so, are HILARIOUS. Let me see if I get this straight.
You, the person who in an earlier post here stated you would never take a dressage horse to a western trainer or vice versa, and you, you who CRITICZED the owners of the horse in question for being willing to let CC have a go, are telling me (who rides one discipline competively, takes lessons in another, and rides yet another casually, and is open to seeing what the NHers have to say) that I don't have a spirit that allows me to try out new ideas?

For the win, my dear. For. The. Win.



You like the tv guru-trainers? You do? Fine, go ahead. I don't care. It's your horse.
(later)
So you're a fan. So you start foaming at the mouth when someone doesn't like your handsome tv star trainer in a cowboy hat. Cry me a river.
I would like you, just as a favor, to pick out from my posts and blue-quote me on my personal fandom of Chris Cox.
I have never even HEARD of Chris Cox except for this thread (but you say he's young and cute so he might be worth a google). I don't recall at any point professing my allegiance to ANY tv guru, or even ANY particular training method, or even ANY discipline (while you of course think dressage riders are the only ones who ride straight and the hunter idiots' version of straight is riding at a 45 degree angle to the rail. Yeah, that's *real* easy to find a spot on.). Meanwhile, I have not even remotely disagreed with any of the training theories that Team Dressage has been presenting. (go ahead and look; blue quote it if you can find it.)

As for your longwinded story of the sweaty three year old filly, I am unsure what your point is unless you are trying to help ME make MY point that anyone can quote a theory, but it's not so easy to actually APPLY it. What if she had said, "I am beating this filly like this because she won't go FORWARD. It is PARAMOUNT that she go FORWARD. You said so on COTH." Looky there, slc2, she's using your standard, basic, dressage theory. That is what you leave the door open for when you quote the theory without helping the recipient of your 'help' to apply it.

Which leads right into another fantastically helpful piece of slc2 advice:


Your 'mouthy' horse, if he's biting you on the ground, needs to be punished for that. A few horses, who are nipping a little because the owner constantly feeds treats, will simply stop if not hand-fed. A few other horses, who are aggressively playing, need to be punished a few times and they will stop.
See how easy it is to spout random useless training maxims? "If the horse is nippy, he must be punished."
Um, punished HOW, exactly? Do I waggle my finger at him and say, "No dearest?" Or do I hit him with a taser?
Maybe I should beat him for 15 minutes with my dressage whip?
I mean, (not that we are surprised) you recited the theory, but didn't address the 'applying it' aspect of the whole situation. What, exactly, is "If he's nippy, he must be punished" supposed to leave me with, again?
For the record, he ISn't nippy, he WAS. Sithly's advice (in which she described BOTH the theory AND explained how to apply it) worked great! (And it did involve negative consequences for bad behavior, but not any of the spurring or head 'yerking' you complain about above. A halter and lead rope were put to good use.) Contrary to your contention that I had to turn to a tv guru to save my pride in the face of my own incompetence, I turned to a random person who I didn't know from adam who had made some good responses to other people on livejournal. I think she's just a regular horseperson who had a good idea and the ability to explain it well. But you are welcome to try to get her a tv deal signed up if you think that qualifies her for guru status.

Which brings us now to your simple maxim for retraining the rearer:


By going forward. Very, very simple.

You don't think it will work, I suppose, because you don't understand forward, or how horses rear.

1. Just so we're clear, the whole point of my responses here has been to say that telling people who are having difficulty (in this case, the owners of the dressage horse and I suppose you could throw in me on my trail-ride-balker) that the solution is very very simple, and then summing it up with a statement that obviously they don't understand anything or are overhorsed amateurs, is OBNOXIOUS. People have been consistently posting in this manner here, and I have been consistently pointing out that it is RIDICULOUS and UNCALLED FOR.

2. If it is so very, very simple, I believe I have already established an open invitation to you to come out and very very simply apply the theory to my trail-ride-balker. I will pay your airfare first class. I will be more than happy to admit my own incompetence in the face of your hallowed skill. We can even make a video and send it to Chris Cox so he gets a fucking clue already. Maybe we can even get it aired on RFD!!! o_O!

Allow me to illustrate my point with an example (I too, can tell long stories! Except mine are entertaining and on point.)

Today, in my dressage lesson (Yep! I'm so close minded about the principles of dressage that I pay good money to have someone teach them to me.), I was sharing the ring with a girl (12 yo, maybe?) who was having a really hard time keeping her pony trotting.

I personally thought that it should be very, very simple to get that pony to trot.

I could have, in classic slc2 style, said to her, "It is very, very simple. You must insist he go FORWARD. Clearly you don't understand basic concepts." That would be classic slc2. In fact, had I had a print out of this conversation in my back pocket, I could have just handed it to her and been like, "See? slc2 says your problem is very, very simple and you must insist he go FORWARD. She says people who have problems like this clearly don't understand basic concepts, and by the way if you would ride correctly you wouldn't have this problem." I would have had to translate it into German, but let no wisdom go undispensed.

Instead of pulling the slc2, however, I strategically planned my use of the ring so that I would do my halt-trot departs just as she was coming up behind me so I could 'pull her along' with my horse (her pony, 'Sir', likes to follow.) I made sure not to halt when I was near her, because I knew Sir would just slam on the brakes to hang out with his buddy. One time, when I halted without realizing she was coming up behind me (Sir had massively sliced a turn to get closer to my horse, I thought they were over by B but there they were homeing in on E!), I heard the sup-sups beginning because Sir had immediately halted as well, so I trotted off immediately instead of doing the rein back I was supposed to.
That is one (of many, many) ways to help someone out a little without spouting a technically correct training maxim in a practically useless manner.

In the highly hypothetical event that she posts here this evening detailing her frustration at not being able to get her pony to stay at the trot, I hope that at the very least, people will think twice before behaving towards her in her thread how they have behaved in this one.
But I'm sure slc2 and co. won't be able to help themselves from chiming in that she clearly doesn't understand ANYTHING since the solution is SO SIMPLE. I mean, duh. If he's resisting going forward, just go FORWARD.
Classic.

Brookes
Nov. 17, 2007, 03:39 PM
Meupatdoes . . . . . . may . . . . I . . . . please . . . . . have . . . your . . .autograph????

And oh yeah, thank you, thank you oh and thank you!!!!

dalpal
Nov. 17, 2007, 04:55 PM
Meupatdoes . . . . . . may . . . . I . . . . please . . . . . have . . . your . . .autograph????

And oh yeah, thank you, thank you oh and thank 'you!!!!'


You gotta get in line. :yes::yes::yes::yes::lol::lol::lol::lol:
:D:D:D

Touchstone Farm
Nov. 17, 2007, 10:13 PM
meupatdoes...very funny (and pretty much on target!) Loved the "from dearest to taser." If I could spend the same amount of time in the saddle that slc does writing the "War and Peace" explanations, I'd be GP! :-)

monstrpony
Nov. 18, 2007, 08:50 AM
As for training a rearer, yes, I have done that. And it was pretty bad, too.

How was the horse retrained? Not by gimmicks, not by some clever rap from some spin doctor.

By going forward. Very, very simple.

You don't think it will work, I suppose, because you don't understand forward, or how horses rear....

(snip)

One has to be quick. If as most horses do the horse stiffens his neck as he rears he has to be 'doubled' (more old school) in a circle, and THEN made forward. But timing is of the essence, as doubling can cause a horse that's actually up to fall on his side, a la movie stunt.

It's not for the faint of heart. What one has to do is extremely simple, but that doesn't make it easy. IT also works. My horse stopped rearing.


:confused::confused::confused:

Don't know about the rest of you, but this whole thread just fell flatter than a flapjack as far as I'm concerned.

JSwan
Nov. 18, 2007, 08:52 AM
I agree; playing with your Breyer Horse collection doesn't count towards your "credentials", slc.

NoDQhere
Nov. 18, 2007, 10:03 AM
:confused::confused::confused:

Don't know about the rest of you, but this whole thread just fell flatter than a flapjack as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, funny how that happens when the attacks start :mad: It WAS an interesting thread until SLC and myself got "pitched" into.

Now I don't know who SLC is, or most of the rest of you for that matter as you post anonymously. But, because of my "experience" I do know that SLC's "theory" is sound.

I haven't reread the entire thread, too many horses to work and I type SLOW :lol:. But I don't think any of us "disagree'ers" said CC's type of schooling would'nt work, just that we didn't feel that, based on what we had seen, CC's method was the best for "that" horse. Or that "that" horse was so AWFUL. In my lifetime with horses I have seen much more dangerous rearers, that have been rehabbed by methods just like us "disagree'ers" have been spouting.

So, go ahead and ream my post apart, twist my words and enjoy yourself. In the end, I hope it all works out for the horse and his rider. Because I will say it again, "that is a REALLY nice horse" and I know several "dressage trainers" who would have taken him on.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Nov. 18, 2007, 10:17 AM
And in my own fumbling way I was trying to say what slc2 and NoDQhere were saying more eloquently: sometimes there is a physical issue, and the horse has very little means of effective communication to get their point across and make you wake up and smell the coffee. Sometimes it is a memory of past issues, whether abuse or injury or both. Understanding the cause and dealing with it appropriately takes time.

Yes, theer are some people whose eyes meet across the room and wham! the next thing you know, they're doing the horizontal tango. That's the equivalent of breaking a horse in a 3 hour session. But, as your mother would probably say, "These things take time, dear."

RegentLion
Nov. 18, 2007, 01:32 PM
meupatdoes- It was worth it to wade through this thread to hear your replies... :D I applaud you and I believe I'm 3rd in line for the autograph?

dalpal
Nov. 18, 2007, 02:01 PM
of all the problem horses we get to fix, most of them come from some parelli loven nh who has tried it and cant fix tehre VERY DANGEROUS HORSE. I dont think in the past 1000 horses i ever got one that was practicing good horsemanship, and just plain basic dressage. several of the worst ones were trying nh. even several of them have gone to the parelli clinics in colorado, to fix their horse, and $5000 plus later still cant ride their horse. Till they come to us to get fixed with just good gentle basic horsemanship www.listentoyourhorse.com


Now I don't disagree with this this at all. Here's the PP approach...take the average middle aged lady who really would like to have a nice relationship with a horse and tell her that you are going to teach her to do this and maintain the dignity of the horse. So these folks get these horses who are already running all over top of them and try their darnest to keep the horse's dignity. It escalates.

That's what I gather from watching PP's series....he goes over and over again about keeping the horse's dignity...so if you aren't horse savvy, that bascially tells the people that reprimanding the 1200 pound animals with a whack or a boot is wrong.

I don't get this from CC at all...his shows are not (or at least the ones I have seen) circus acts...He is trying to deliever some helpful information. Same with Tommy Garland...granted Tommy's show is geared more towards a beginner, but he does offer some very useful advice. I applauded him when he did a show about buying a horse and said..."Please don't go buy your young child a green horse and think they should grow up together, that won't work." Granted, for us on this board, that is common sense..but not to the average parent who isn't horsey.

Sithly
Nov. 18, 2007, 03:40 PM
Sorry, but you guys are not getting any sympathy from me. You were happy to dish out the nastiness earlier, yet when someone calls you on your bad behavior, suddenly you're all humble dressage martyrs being persecuted for your ideals. Hah. Nice try.

meupatdoes
Nov. 18, 2007, 04:15 PM
Sorry, but you guys are not getting any sympathy from me. You were happy to dish out the nastiness earlier, yet when someone calls you on your bad behavior, suddenly you're all humble dressage martyrs being persecuted for your ideals. Hah. Nice try.

Ah, but pouting is such sweet sorrow.