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Lenny
Oct. 31, 2007, 09:36 PM
As most of you know, my wife Sandy Has nursemares. Many of you have had the need for her services. She has brought Nursemares to farms all over the northeast. I know many nursemare farms have trouble with SPCA. This is Sandys first time. Its not nice. While this hasbeen going on (Aug til now), I have found out some things. Here in NY the SPCA has taken show horses from kids to breeding stock from breeders. Now you might think these horses were endangered,starving,cripples etc. Think again. Sandys horses are not endangered.None of her foals were endangered. In fact sandy shipped some to Va. not long ago that were on the SPCAs list. I'm sure that their owners now were happy with them. Here is some of the vets comments about the suggested ones to be seized. One yearling with a white nose had what you might call sunburn. The vet with SPCA said the yearling had to be treated with sun block everyday. Our vet said that the redness came a weed in the pasture where most of it was shadded anyway. This one will kill you draft horse lovers. The head officer ofthe SPCA told my wife that the big draft mare (Shire,Bridgit) had swolen and infected Teets. She said that they need attention rite away or she would be subject to removel. Most of you know what a rat tail APP is. Well Sandy has two or three. The SPCA wants these horses to stay in the barn daytimes because they can't defend temselves against the flies. Sandy also has three blind mares. Most of you know who Sassy is. well the vet looked at these mares and said we have to put salve in their eyes. Now these mares have been blind for many years now. Will this salve do some kind of wonders? I later found out this is a vet out of NY city. A P.E.T.A. Vet. Other vets the SPCA use seem to be ones that don't have a very good practice. At least the ones I know. None of the horses or foals that were taken were in any danger. Sandy has had vets come in and evaluate her herd. Including the babies. all the vets that seen the horses said that the SPCA had no grounds for seizure of any of them. Yet the Judge signs the warrants.The other vets that are to far away haed written letters in her behalf. There is a TB farm up here that they are going to take 75 horses from. The clam is the water has ecoli in it. Dairy farms are not safe either. BUT its the horse breeders they want to take down and they as much as said that. WE are going through hell with this. Sandy had to go to jail for trying to defend her horses. I guess nobody told her she can't go after a SPCA officer with a tractor. Ya, a 62 yr old woman on a 50 yr old ford tractor with a 850 lb round bale on the back. Front wheels off the ground. Now how do you stear it at someone. Now I want to warn everyone that breeds. Don't let anyone in to your place that you don't know. Sandys problem started with a 3 yr old that was at another place for a while and that place fed a daly wormer. We could never get the weight back on that horse and I wanted to put it down. Sandy said wait a little longer. That was the only thin horse on the place except Ilana ,30 yr old mare. So keep an eye out as there is nobody out there watching over the SPCA. They have a free rain and will take you down. There are many stories out there, like ours. I can't get any help from anyone. NY State DA, NY State Dept, AG and Markets, Farm bureau, yet to hear fron Newspapers. Nobody wants to step on the SPCAs toes. It will go to court in Dec. Thats just when the mares will start foaling. The Nursemare herd is just fine. Not as many mares as some were sold this summer. Sandy has enough.to keep her running. I never ask for anyones help,if I can't solve my own problems, but this is different. We are excepting letters from anyone that has had the need of Sandys help. That knows what a life saver a Nursemare can be. People that have had runins with the SpCA. People that are breeders. The address is Sandys Nursemare Service, 70 Taft Ave, Poughkeepsie, NY 12603 . I hope none of you have to go through any of this. These people (SPCA) have to be stopped. They have to have a watchdog so to speek, keep them in check. Its like the gustopo. Same thing. Thanks for any help you can come up with. Len.

medhorse
Oct. 31, 2007, 09:51 PM
Better articulation and spelling would be warranted.

Tazer
Oct. 31, 2007, 10:33 PM
http://blindhorsesings.com/blog/2007/08/welcome_andy.html

When Andy, a yearling Appaloosa, arrived last week, he collapsed to the ground when he stepped off the trailer. We lifted him gently—this young boy who should weigh 700 pounds weighs at best half that—and he inched forward on wobbly legs to his stall.

In starvation cases, a rating system known as the “Henneke Scale” is used by veterinarians to describe horses’ body conditions. Horses are rated between “1” and “9” on the scale, with “1” being the worst possible score for an animal that’s still alive--a score that represents extreme emaciation. Andy was called an “extreme 1.”

Andy has been so starved for so long that we’re concerned that his body might be shutting down. Instead of manure, he passes water. His urine is dark. He leans against the stall wall to support himself. Andy’s owner, a breeder from Poughkeepsie, has been arrested and charged with four counts of cruelty. While the courts play out her fate, we will do everything we can to heal this lovely boy, who already senses that Catskill Animal Sanctuary is a safe place. After just two days, he wobbles on unsteady legs to his front wall, leans out, and nibbles a hat or a cheek. Too weak to muster a full whinny, he tries to call out “hello” to everyone he sees.

He’s a trooper. And we’re rooting for him.

Tazer
Oct. 31, 2007, 10:35 PM
http://www.prnewsnow.com/Public_Release/Volunteer/161922.html

What Starvation Looks Like Little Horse Recovers at Catskill Animal Sanctuary

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One month after his removal from a Dutchess County breeder, little Andy, an Appaloosa stallion, has gained seventy pounds and is able to stand solidly on spindly legs.


When Andy, above, arrived at Catskill Animal Sanctuary on August 1, he collapsed to the ground when he stepped off the trailer. Caretakers lifted him gently, and he inched forward on wobbly legs to his stall. For the first few days, he shook when he stood. Though three years old, Andy is the size of a yearling.


"I can't believe this animal is alive," commented director Kathy Stevens.


The young stallion was so starved for so long that caretakers were concerned that his body might be shutting down. But a month after his arrival, Andy has gained weight, is able to stand solidly, and walks slowly out to his pasture to graze.


Andy's owner, a breeder from Poughkeepsie, New York, has been arrested and charged with four counts of cruelty. She failed to appear in court for her bond hearing.


Catskill Animal Sanctuary (www.casanctuary.org) is a haven for horses and farm animals in Saugerties, New York. Since its opening in 2001, CAS has saved the lives of 1,100 animals. Director Kathy Stevens is author of the newly released book Where the Blind Horse Sings: Love and Healing at an Animal Sanctuary (www.blindhorsesings.com). CAS is open to the public Saturdays and Sundays through October.

sketcher
Oct. 31, 2007, 10:36 PM
It seems like a good idea not to let anyone on your property these days with all the work going into seemingly trying to control whether or not people can have animals in the name of 'tracking' livestock. It seems like there are big pushes against dog breeders as well, and while it would be great to shut down the puppy mills, there seem to be other agenda's. Maybe I'm just paranoid but I don't like the general direction things are heading.

Good luck with the SPCA.

Daydream Believer
Oct. 31, 2007, 10:40 PM
It would seem like they'd have better things to protect than well cared for broodies. Honestly...tell them to go find all the loose horses people are supposedly abandoning in record numbers due to the hay shortage and do something to help them.

I also have photosensitive horses (lots of bald faces) and I do try to do my best for them, but occasionally they do sunburn. Honestly...that is a bit much!

I agree that editing your post and putting in some paragraphs would help a lot with it's readability.

Janet
Oct. 31, 2007, 10:45 PM
WHICH SPCA?

There are hundreds of organizations with "SPCA" in their name.

medhorse
Oct. 31, 2007, 10:46 PM
It is my general impression that this should not debated publicly since this is an on going litigation. If "Sandy" has been properly caring for her horses, then there should be no further debate.

chaltagor
Oct. 31, 2007, 10:49 PM
Sandys problem started with a 3 yr old that was at another place for a while and that place fed a daly wormer. We could never get the weight back on that horse and I wanted to put it down. Sandy said wait a little longer.

What did the vet say that came out to see your thin 3 year old? Did he agree with you that euthanasia was the best choice?

CHS
Oct. 31, 2007, 11:02 PM
But...

I have been to Sandy's place more than once. I no longer live in the area (moved to VA last year) but I was to Sandy's a few times. I have met Len also. I bought a cute little colt from them when he was a few days old. I have a friend who bought at least three foals from Sandy that I know of. Probably more. The colt I got is now six years old and drop dead gorgeous. He is doing dressage with a nice young girl in South Jersey.

To the point...

Sandy had a lot of horses ranging in age from newborn to geriatric. All were FAT and healthy. I only gave her a moments notice to tell her I was coming to get the colt. She had no time to hide or cover up anything. There was nothing about the place that concerned me. All of the stalls were clean (I went in with most of the horses), all of them had fresh/clean water, all horses had hay in front of them. There was plenty of grain and milk replacer. She personally showed us every horse on the place and told us all about their history/breeding etc..
I am a farrier. I worked for a vet on his breeding farm for years. Numerous times we bought colostrum from Sandy to save foals. I've been riding/showing/breeding horses for 30 plus years. While some may not agree with nurse mare farms, that is fine, but honestly people these foals are fed and cared for and all looked great.

Whether you agree with her business or not or whether you like her or not, the fact is the horses all looked great. I'm one for calling a spade a spade and I never saw one thing at her place that concerned me.

I used to work at the local farrier supply. Sandy came in often to purchase various things to treat her horses. She took care of those horses. She spent money on things that the average horse owner wouldn't bother with. I know because I sold the items to her.

Like I said I don't know about the story of the colt. I only know what I saw. I'm not a friend of theirs. They probably don't even remember who I am.

I'm just stating the facts as I saw them.

Joshua's Mom
Nov. 1, 2007, 12:20 AM
Unfortunately the day after my Freestyle mare delivered her Jazz colt 6/24/07 We had to make a mad dash to New Bolton for Colic surgery. We were encouraged to take little Johnny home with us. We tried bottle feeding him with little success, We did somewhat better with the bucket every hour and a half!. Still we had ulser and colic symtoms. A friend heard about Sandy and her nurse mares. One call, and she was down here in Pennsylvania the next day!! Velvet was a life saver. She arrived in great condition, sporting a glossy black coat, Last year she was at a Md. Thoroughbred farm, and the year before it was Hilltop Farm. Johnny loves her. We even had them both at Devon! She is still here with me until it is time to wean him.. I have retired horses here, and know how some of these older guys are almost imposible to keep weight on. I sure hope that I don't get any unwanted visitors. It seems to me that there are occasionally some misguided people on a mission to save the worlds creatures. Although an admirable cause, they often don't have the debth of knowledge at the practical level to understand the chalenges of managing a diverse population of horses. I have never been to Sandy's farm, but I can atest to the good health and physical condition of the mare that she delivered to my farm. I, and Johnny, are very greatful! BTW Fable is doing well following her surgery.

YankeeLawyer
Nov. 1, 2007, 12:36 AM
It sounds like Sandy may have a PITA neighbor that is encouraging these "investigations."

Kinsella
Nov. 1, 2007, 02:33 AM
A friend got a mare from Sandy as well. She came in fat and happy and was a real - literal - lifesaver. I'm sorry to hear Sandy is having trouble - when people or organizations get an idea into their head it is almost impossible to change it - no matter how much proof you present. :sigh:

ise@ssl
Nov. 1, 2007, 08:06 AM
Medhorse - are you involved in this matter? If you are you should say so and identify yourself. I found your post to be rather threatening.

pwynnnorman
Nov. 1, 2007, 08:34 AM
As most of you know, my wife Sandy Has nursemares. Many of you have had the need for her services. She has brought Nursemares to farms all over the northeast. I know many nursemare farms have trouble with SPCA. This is Sandys first time.

Lenny, I'm sorry, but you know that's not true and I cannot sit here and let it go. Not everyone agrees with Sandy's viewpoints on how to manage breeding stock. She knows her stuff when it comes to nursemaring and provides a valuable service for many, but there's a LOT of history there when it comes to other aspects.

I strongly suggest you take medhorse's advice and let this go.

Hillside H Ranch
Nov. 1, 2007, 11:21 AM
I think this thread is probably going to get out of control and agree that it should probably not be discussed here.
However, not every person that has horses seized from them is innocent. I worked as an animal cruelty/neglect investigator for several years and I can tell you that it is difficult to get a judge to sign an order to seize an animal. Most judges either have "more important cases" to worry about, or aren't eager to crack down hard on these types of cases (especially for first time incidents). While I'm not taking sides at all I'm just reminding people that investigators working on these cases aren't always "evil, PETA-minded individuals that want to take your animals for fun". How many times on this very board have people moaned about a starved horse they see at a neighbors and wish someone would do something about it? You really can't have it both ways. It sounds like this case is working its way through the judicial system and we should probably just wait and see how it shakes out.

springer
Nov. 1, 2007, 11:43 AM
Better articulation and spelling would be warranted.

I agree. As illiterate as this post sounds I find the whole thing a bit hard to believe.

Tiki
Nov. 1, 2007, 02:37 PM
I don't know the people involved in this, but there was a big threat on the Hunting forum a while ago about PETA people catching and putting to death legitimate hunting dogs in Virginia. Dogs that had been in their families for years, were very well taken care of, but were historically turned loose at night to track and kill varmints. They all wore radio tracking collars and ID tags because some of them were relentless in pursuit of varmints and would track them even beyond the range of the radio collars. They way they found out what was happening to these dogs initially was that the PETA people had removed the radio collars from the dogs they captured and ditched them by the side of the road. After finding enough of them they put out surveillance and caught them in the act of catching the dogs, removing the collars and bringing them into the backs of vans. When approached, they were found to have illegal narcotics and were euthanizing the dogs in the back of the vans with NO veterinary supervision. Maybe search the Hunting Forum if some of you don't believe this happens. This is not an endorsement of Len and Sandy as I don't know them and haven't been to their farm, but stuff like this DOES happen. With the blessing of a judge . . . . . ? ? ? ? ? I don't know. Some of these people can talk a really good line!

ReeseTheBeast
Nov. 1, 2007, 03:06 PM
I don't understand... are the links in Tazer's posts related to the OP and their issues?

CHS
Nov. 1, 2007, 03:27 PM
Unfortunately the day after my Freestyle mare delivered her Jazz colt 6/24/07 We had to make a mad dash to New Bolton for Colic surgery. We were encouraged to take little Johnny home with us. We tried bottle feeding him with little success, We did somewhat better with the bucket every hour and a half!. Still we had ulser and colic symtoms. A friend heard about Sandy and her nurse mares. One call, and she was down here in Pennsylvania the next day!! Velvet was a life saver. She arrived in great condition, sporting a glossy black coat, Last year she was at a Md. Thoroughbred farm, and the year before it was Hilltop Farm. Johnny loves her. We even had them both at Devon! She is still here with me until it is time to wean him.. I have retired horses here, and know how some of these older guys are almost imposible to keep weight on. I sure hope that I don't get any unwanted visitors. It seems to me that there are occasionally some misguided people on a mission to save the worlds creatures. Although an admirable cause, they often don't have the debth of knowledge at the practical level to understand the chalenges of managing a diverse population of horses. I have never been to Sandy's farm, but I can atest to the good health and physical condition of the mare that she delivered to my farm. I, and Johnny, are very greatful! BTW Fable is doing well following her surgery.

I believe Velvet is the dam of the colt I bought. Is she a little solid black appy mare?

LongLeaf
Nov. 1, 2007, 03:35 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2jUYNimDnE

clint
Nov. 1, 2007, 05:42 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2jUYNimDnE

Popcorn anyone?:lol:

Tazer
Nov. 1, 2007, 05:42 PM
http://www.933star.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=116507&article=2844902

Tractor Assault In Dutchess

Incident happened in Union Vale.
Friday, October 26, 2007
A DUTCHESS COUNTY WOMAN WAS ARRESTED FOR ALLEGEDLY USING A TRACTOR TO TRY AND RUN DOWN DUTCHESS SHERIFF'S DEPUTIES AND SPCA OFFICERS. THE OFFICERS HAD A WARRANT TO SEIZE HORSES FROM A LOCATION ON BRUZGAL ROAD IN UNION VALE WEDNESDAY NIGHT WHEN 62 YEAR OLD SANDRA KISTNER ALLEGEDLY BECAME VIOLENT AND USED THE TRACTOR AS A WEAPON. NO ONE WAS INJURED AS THE WOMAN WAS TAKEN INTO CUSTODY. KISTNER WAS CHARGED WITH FIRST DEGREE ASSAULT.



Copyright © 2003-2007 Clear Channel. All rights reserved.

race_run_jump
Nov. 1, 2007, 11:06 PM
I got a nurse mare from Sandy last year. I lost my favorite TB mare 12 hours after she had foaled a fabulous Feuertanzer filly. She came down very quickly with "Bonnie" who was fat and happy. She did a great job getting the foal and the mare acquainted, and was very reassuring to me. I was a mess, having just lost my favorite broodmare, and she made a very difficult situation better. She also helped my worries over Bonnie's "real" foal by telling me how that foal would be going to be adopted by a mare who was still lactating from earlier - apparently that worked out well. I recently received Bonnie's foal by my stallion. She came down with a fairly shaggy coat (fall in NY kind of coat) and was a bit smaller than my weanling that had a "real mother". I was concerned with her pot belly - immediately thought "oh no - worms" - but she came with a deworming record. Then I chatted with my vet, telling him about her. He said, "Oh - is it a little bit small, with a pot belly?" - Um yes, how did you know? Said it was a typical "bucket baby" thing - as they only get fed at certain times, not a speck at a time like a foal on a mare. Said not to worry as both are things she will grow out of. She is a kind, sweet foal. Sandy was great to communicate with and was genuinely concerned with how she adjusted and how I liked her. I know that there are people who disagree with the whole nurse mare concept, and I am sure there are some bad apples out there, but I was happy to do business with Sandy and would do so again. She is genuinely concerned with placing the foals in homes that care for them, and that helped my worries about taking some poor foal's mother. I would buy a foal from her again, or use a nurse mare if I was unlucky enough to need one. I appreciate the fine line that the animal control people have to walk, and wish them the best. I have not been to Sandy's farm, but did want to recount my positive experiences.
Erika

Joshua's Mom
Nov. 1, 2007, 11:44 PM
She sure is!! If I knew how to put pictures on this forum I would show her to you. Actually, if you go to the Devon photographer site, the pass word is Devon2007. Johnny's real name coltrane WRF I think they are #165. The horse community never ceases to amaze me.
Judy
www.windyridgefarm.com

sid
Nov. 1, 2007, 11:44 PM
Sandy has come "to the rescue" more times than I can count...having had an NI mare, as well as an orphan foal, and other babies that needed donor colostrum...I am indebted to her.

I have never been to her farm, so I can't speak to the condition of her horses, but to me she seemed like a passionate horseman trying to do the best for babies in need with little or no notice.

One would have to be passionate to work as hard as she does: getting mares bred, foaling them out en masse, collecting and packaging colostrum, shipping it out last minute in frozen packaging...then schlepping nursemares up and down the east coast for the better part of six months per year. It takes a special person to have that kind of devotion. Cripes, most of us are burned out just getting 3 mares through breeding, foaling, delivery and neonatal care.

If the threats and/or harassment that Len describes are true, coupled with Sandy's passion (and exaustion that she must live with) I can see why she may have felt she needed to defend herself and her property from what she felt was an invasion. Clearly, jumping on a tractor wasn't the best course of action, especially in the eyes of non-horse people and/or a PETA effort with the "authorities" behind them to shut her down. Sandy herself is a rescuer by the nature of what she does and it sounds like she fought the only way she knew how, as inappropriate as it might seem or be.

Whether we agree with the nursemare operation or not, many of us are indebted to Sandy for her passion in helping us save our precious foals. Of my crew, Chatterly, Fancy, Willy, Archie are only alive because of what she does and her quick response. When I bred I routinely ordered 2 qts. of colostrum to have "just in case". If I didn't need it I'd let local vets and Morven Park I had a supply. I can't tell you the number of frantic mare owners contacted me at 3 a.m. to pick up colostrum for a foal that would have died without it.

I can only hope that the truth prevails here.

YankeeLawyer
Nov. 2, 2007, 12:00 AM
Great post, SID.

Centuree
Nov. 2, 2007, 12:25 AM
I still don't get it. Tazer, was your colt from Sandy's farm? What's the story there?

Sounds like Sandy does provide an excellent service; nonetheless, that doesn't mean she provides excellent care for all her horses including the foals. Hopefully the truth will come out in trial, whatever that may be.

Touchstone Farm
Nov. 2, 2007, 12:28 AM
Perhaps those of you who support her could send notes to the judge or her DA? That would probably count for something.

Drives me crazy when one week you read here how you can't get someone to care about an animal in distress...and then you hear of cases like this where their efforts are unneeded.

handilady
Nov. 2, 2007, 08:10 AM
Well most people complain that the authorities do not do enough. Has anybody been to sandy's barn? Has enybody seen if her stalls & water buckets are clean and not full of whatever but clean water? That ALL the horses are fat and heathly looking? Well somebody must have to make a complaint. If no one saw it how can they make a complaint and the SPCA go in and do what they did. I feel this should not be talked about on this forum at all. If none of you or I saw what her barn and horses look like how can we defend or put her down. There must be some truth to what is being said. I am sure the SPCA has better things to do then do this if it were not true.

carolprudm
Nov. 2, 2007, 08:37 AM
Well most people complain that the authorities do not do enough. Has anybody been to sandy's barn? Has enybody seen if her stalls & water buckets are clean and not full of whatever but clean water? That ALL the horses are fat and heathly looking? Well somebody must have to make a complaint. If no one saw it how can they make a complaint and the SPCA go in and do what they did. I feel this should not be talked about on this forum at all. If none of you or I saw what her barn and horses look like how can we defend or put her down. There must be some truth to what is being said. I am sure the SPCA has better things to do then do this if it were not true.


Don't underestimate the power of a wacky neighbor. I was turned into AC because my horses were standing in mud.

pwynnnorman
Nov. 2, 2007, 09:08 AM
Folks, I haven't been on a property where Sandy had horses in about 15 years, so I hope things have changed--everyone has the right to improve over time--but as I mentioned before, there IS a history. Indeed, we should all appreciate the backbreaking, extremely stressful services that folks like Sandy provide...but sometimes we appreciate those things in the same way we appreciate the make-up we wear that was tested on innocent little bunnies, or the hormones we take thanks to mares who have to stand in straight stalls and pee in bags for months of their lives.

If you are conscientious, then maybe you SHOULD look behind the scenes to understand exactly how you come to benefit from certain providers. If you do in this circumstance, I truly hope you are pleased with what you find now.

And to illustrate, I'll just tell you a small bit: Sandy is an emotional woman--I'm sure she wouldn't be anywhere near as dedicated to what she does if she didn't put her very heart and soul into it, which she truly does. (Oh, what I could tell you about how she has driven through dangerous snowstorms to deliver mares! Over some of the most rugged mountains in the east, too!) That said, though, she once threatened to SHOOT ME if I came onto her property to retrieve my stallion, whom she refused to feed what I provided for him, claiming he was better off thin (the ASPCA got involved in helping me--the police refused to, BTW; the ASPCA said they and many of the locals were in Lenny's pocket. Don't know if that's true, but the police most certainly were VERY rude and singularly unhelpful to me. I spoke with a lawyer who suggested arbitration before filing a formal lawsuit against her (and, folks, you'll find others took the more direct route, if you cared to research this. Our arbiter, BTW, is a lurker here. The result was I got my stallion back without being shot and I feel no ill will toward Sandy. She is what she is--I accept that.) However, as a somewhat sentimental sort myself, I've kept pictures--not just of Teddy (Sr.) while he was there, but of his get who were raised there--and others. Pictures don't lie, folks.

So, OK, there's a history, BUT AGAIN I ACKNOWLDGE THAT PEOPLE CAN CHANGE. This is why I tried in this thread to give Sandy the benefit of the doubt here. Alas, for ethical reasons (honestly--how can I stay silent?) I can't resist having posted this time. I do so specifically so that YOU FOLKS realize that sometimes you enjoy services other living beings sacrifice to provide, so don't make assumptions about this situation any more than you do about those cosmetics you put on your faces.

Hillside H Ranch
Nov. 2, 2007, 10:14 AM
Thank you, PWynn for sharing that with us. I get frustrated when everyone assumes organizations like the ASPCA are always out on witch hunts! Certainly any organization can abuse their power, but not every case is like that. I appreciate hearing from people who have seen this farm first hand, not just someone who had a mare delivered to them. I have no idea who is right/wrong in this case as I don't have first hand knowledge, but it sounds like a lot of the people defending Sandy also don't have first-hand knowledge of what her place is like and how she actually cares for her horses.

medhorse
Nov. 2, 2007, 10:17 AM
Well said! Excellent post!

Tiki
Nov. 2, 2007, 11:22 AM
Don't underestimate the power of a wacky neighbor. I was turned into AC because my horses were standing in mud. I was turned in to the Sheriff's Office for neglect. The sheriff who came out was in stitches laughing at the complaint when she met my horses and dogs. They told her the horses were never fed (I get up early to feed and leave early for work). The sheriff didn't know my hours at the time she first came out, but she could see a round bale feeder full of hay - inside their run-in shed and protected form the elements. She could see all the good grass in the pasture, she could see their water trough and saw them drinking from it. The neighbors then complained that the dogs weren't fed and were neglected and abused. They were all apparently at the fence jumping up and wagging their tails (yuh, right, abused) and she asked which one had been starved because they all looked in pretty good flesh to her. Then the neighbors told her they were neglected and abused because I was away from the house for 12 hours each day to work. The sheriff said, "Then arrest me! I leave my dog home while I'm out of patrol. These dogs look well fed. They're happy and friendly. I can see a water bucket and shelter for them".
Don't underestimate the power of a wacky neighbor!!!!! Doesn't always mean there isn't a problem, but sometimes you have to look at where the complaint is coming from. Anyone here ever been turned in for having 'dead horses' in your front pasture? when the horses were sleeping in the sun? Ever been turned in for 'blindfolding' your horses because you put fly masks on them?

CHS
Nov. 2, 2007, 11:44 AM
While I have seriously downscaled my horse involvement, I used to run a breeding farm with 40+ horses.

We had horses from sucking to geriatric. Some of the "older" crowd were a little rough looking, which is typical for any older living thing. The younger/middle aged horses were all sleek/fat/gorgeous.
Being on a public road many people would comment about the "skinny/ragged" looking horses.

Let's think about this people...
If 97% of the horses at a farm are looking gorgeous and there are 3% looking a little less than perfect would you call the SPCA? Would you assume those 3% were cared for any less than the 97%? Most of the time those 3% get more care and cost more to keep than the others.
If all of the horses were in bad shape then yes I would be concerned.
I don't know of anyone who would take excellent care of the majority of their horses and let one or two suffer without proper care. It doesn't make sense.

What it's coming down to is we're all going to have to put down horses when they start to show their "age" to keep these clueless animal Nazi's away.
No one is going to want to take in a rescue or hardship case for fear that if someone sees the less than perfect horse with the healthy fat herd they will come to "rescue" all of the horses. It's insane.

It's so sad that the human race has lost the ability to use logic in these situations.

On a side note there was a farm between my place and Sandys that had dairy cattle in a pasture on a main road. In the fall it got muddy in the feed lot (not the whole field). Some "animal lover" with no common sense saw the cattle eating one morning while they were standing in the mud. Oh horrors!!!! That poor farmer was harrassed so badly he stopped using that pasture all together. It's INSANE!!!!!!!!

Keep it up and pretty soon none of us will be able to have horses because there will always be someone who thinks something we do is cruel or abusive.

Sandy knows her way around horses no one can deny that. I can promise you she has more horse experience than the majority on this board. Maybe her standards aren't the same as yours. That doesn't mean her horses need to be "rescued". We all have different standards. Mine are quite high. Many people here know me and my horses and can attest to that.
Even with my high standards I saw NOTHING that concerned me at Sandy's.
Yes Sandy is passionate. Yes she will fight tooth and nail for her cause and her horses. Yes you can say she marches to the beat of a different drummer. That doesn't give anyone here the right to judge her. I have been there. I've been there more than once. I find it very disheartening to read posts from people who don't know Sandy, have never done business with her, and have never been to her place give an opinion on the situation.

Those of you who are judging from what you are reading without seeing for yourself are the reason people like Sandy are being harrassed.

I saw EVERY horse on her farm. EVERY single horse. I touched them all. I was there more than once.

Some people just don't have enough to do I guess. I'm far too busy with life to worry about horses that I know are well taken care of.

Hillside H Ranch
Nov. 2, 2007, 11:55 AM
[QUOTE=CHS;2776846] I have been there. I've been there more than once. I find it very disheartening to read posts from people who don't know Sandy, have never done business with her, and have never been to her place give an opinion on the situation.
QUOTE]


So, are you saying that the post from pwynnnorman is made up? She said she was threatened WITH BEING SHOT when she went to retrieve HER OWN STALLION! I don't know, that seems a little out of line to me. Like I said, we will just have to see how this plays out, but there sure are a lot of conflicting details coming out which makes we wonder if there isn't something a little 'off ' going on here.
I refuse to let all animal welfare investigators/organizations be painted with a broad brush as the bad guys. It just isn't true.

Tazer
Nov. 2, 2007, 12:46 PM
Another google search led to the discovery of this press release...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.newenglandequinerescues.com/badnewsbadpeople.htm


For Immediate Release

August 8, 2007

Contact: Chief Uhlmann

Humane Law Enforcement, Dutchess County SPCA

(845) 452-7722 Ext. 3; duhlmann@co.dutchess.ny.us



Unionvale horse owner arraigned on animal cruelty charges

HYDE PARK, NY – A Town of Poughkeepsie resident, Sandra J. Kistner, was arraigned in Unionvale court today on charges filed by the Dutchess County SPCA’s Humane Law Enforcement Division. Kistner was charged with four counts of Failure to Provide Proper Sustenance to an Animal, all misdemeanors.

Chief Uhlmann of the DCSPCA responded to a complaint of horses being inadequately cared for on a horse farm in Unionvale. As a result of the investigation a search and seizure warrant was obtained. Veterinarians who specialize in equine health were consulted to evaluate the overall health of the horses and the conditions in which they were living. Four horses were removed from the property and were transported to animal rehabilitation centers where they are being cared for.

Joyce Garrity, Executive Director of the DCSPCA, stated "The Dutchess County SPCA Humane Law Enforcement team is working very hard to protect the horses in this case. We are appreciative of the help provided by volunteers, the Dutchess County Sheriff’s Office, the NYS Police and the Dutchess County District Attorney’s Office."

The Defendant was arrested today by NYS Police on the four counts of animal cruelty. The investigation is still ongoing.

If you have questions or concerns regarding possible animal cruelty or neglect, contact the DCSPCA Law Enforcement Division at (845) 452-7722 ext. 3.

The Dutchess County SPCA, a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit, is the lead agency for animal rescue and adoption in Dutchess County. The DCSPCA is a no-kill shelter with a 136-year history of concern, caring and providing shelter for unwanted, abused, abandoned and neglected animals. Central to the mission of the DCSPCA is the securing of caring, responsible, permanent homes for the adoptable animals in its care.

Centuree
Nov. 2, 2007, 12:50 PM
[QUOTE= I do so specifically so that YOU FOLKS realize that sometimes you enjoy services other living beings sacrifice to provide, so don't make assumptions about this situation any more than you do about those cosmetics you put on your faces.[/QUOTE] or the meat in your fridge ...

Tazer
Nov. 2, 2007, 01:00 PM
I was turned in to the Sheriff's Office for neglect. The sheriff who came out was in stitches laughing at the complaint when she met my horses and dogs.

Tiki - I am glad to hear you have had experience with a cruelty complaint. Fortunately the complaint being investigated in your situation was unfounded (I imagine that happens alot these days, especially with more city people moving to the country).

I just cannot understand why enforcement would pursue this case, if there was not a legitimate concern.

Who on this forum said they have seen every horse on Sandy's farm? How long ago was that visit, and at what location?

I found an article online that says these horses were evicted from Warwick, NY.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://archive.recordonline.com/archive/2004/01/18/brf90.htm

January 18, 2004

Warwick
Horses die at Warwick breeding farm

At least three horses belonging to a nurse mare breeder have died at a Warwick Farm due to as yet unidentified medical complications, police said yesterday.

The breeder, Sandy Kistner, was evicted from the farm on Blooms Corner Road, where she was a tenant, earlier this month. The 80 or so horses on the property were being looked after by caretakers appointed by the landlord. Kistner is in the process of moving the animals to a farm in Dutchess County.

State police Investigator Ron Colgan said officials are investigating the deaths, which took place in the past two weeks, but the circumstances did not seem suspicious.

"If there's something of a criminal nature, like negligence, we will take action," Colgan said. Two veterinarians have examined the animals and determined they were well cared for, he said.

pwynnnorman
Nov. 2, 2007, 01:34 PM
[quote=CHS;2776846] I have been there. I've been there more than once. I find it very disheartening to read posts from people who don't know Sandy, have never done business with her, and have never been to her place give an opinion on the situation.
QUOTE]

So, are you saying that the post from pwynnnorman is made up?

I doubt she was talking about me there. And she makes good points, too. Not everyone has the same standards when it comes to horse management and as I stated, I haven't seen Sandy in 15 years (but I've known her for 30+ years and grew up around the corner from where she is now, too).

Fairview Horse Center
Nov. 2, 2007, 01:58 PM
I have been reported for having a dead carcass in my field - AC came, saw the dead body, went to the house to get me, and when we went out into the field, the dead body had "risen". :lol: :lol: I had to explain to the AC that horses do sleep.

I was also reported for having horses in the sun with no shelter. Nope, no run-in sheds, but there was a group of trees, and shade if those horses had chose to not be grazing in the sun. :winkgrin: My stallions go out in the large field when all of the others are in their stalls with fans - all day in the summer. They have shade, but not once have I ever seen them stand in the shade.

I totally agree with CHS. People don't neglect one or 2 horses. Look at the REST of the herd. With 35 horses here, we almost ALWAYS have one horse that is not where I would like to see it, and we are struggling to get weight on.

Right now I have a Trakehner mare that recently moved in. Her young owner is trying everything to get a bit more weight on before winter. The kid keeps trying to use her earned $$ to buy things like Rice bran, and beet pulp and the mare refuses to eat it. Her teeth have just been done, so hopefully that will turn her around, but this is an uphill battle with winter coming on, and a picky eating mare. She does like my yummy sweet feed, so that is what we are "maxing" her out on. (Horror of horrors for her bloodsugar) :eek: ;)

I see all of the time people horrified about a horse that is a bit thin, but NO ONE is upset about a horse that is VERY over weight. IMO, it is ALWAYS much better to be a bit thin than too heavy. Horses on the thin side do not have a lot of health issues, but fat horses have MANY dangerous problems - colic, founder, premature arthritis, etc. Why is it that people do to their animals what they would NEVER do to their OWN bodies?

Who has never had a very thin horse that has been going thru a severe health issue, that you were struggling to turn around, or delaying a "decision" to give them a chance to recover? Who here has not had a broodmare that gives everything to her milk, and looks horrible at weaning?

I had a Hanoverian mare that had a broken ankle (fused) in Germany as a yearling. She was imported and was about 95% sound at the walk, low grade lameness at trot and canter. When I got her she was 15. We bred her for many years, and she had no problems except for that last month of pregnancy. I tried to keep her on the light side to minimize the extra weight that last month. As long as I managed her weight to keep her from getting fat, she was comfortable. After foaling, I was always playing catch up. Within a month or so after delivery, she would be back to normal, but I never let her get fat. She did better (mentally & physically) if she was not kept in a stall, so she lived with my stallion, but she did need to stay pregnant to live with him. She would not have been happy without a foal. The one year she slipped her foal, she adopted another mare's baby and helped to raise him. She was a lovely girl, and a super mom. Carefully managing her weight allowed her to be happy and healthy for many years.

Witnesses are not always valid either. The repro vet that dealt with that Hanoverian mare was never comfortable with her weight, but she only saw her during those first 3 - 4 weeks after foaling, not the rest of the year, so I am sure she would say I kept my broodmare too thin.

MANAGING horses is a challenge. It is not about just keeping a horse fat. It is about keeping the horse in the optimum condition to keep THAT horse as healthy and comfortable as possible. Keeping them in a modified natural state is what is the healthiest. Natural horses will thin out at the end of the winter. That protects them from foundering on spring grass. The fall grass fattens them up for winter. Very easy keepers need to be thin coming onto spring so when they gain that 100 or 200 pounds over May and June, they are not in danger. The rule has always been, In the spring, err on the side of too thin, in the fall, err on the side of too fat.

I don't know anything about Sandy's service, and I am not a fan of the Nursemare industry, but it will be a sad day when a professional person that cares about doing the best for their horses does not have the right to make management decisions about how to best care for their individual issues, and when to say the time is right for giving up.

The recent story of Chanter's Helper comes to mind.

Cheeky Girl
Nov. 2, 2007, 02:38 PM
As most of you know, my wife Sandy Has nursemares. Many of you have had the need for her services. She has brought Nursemares to farms all over the northeast. I know many nursemare farms have trouble with SPCA. This is Sandys first time. Its not nice. While this hasbeen going on (Aug til now), I have found out some things. Here in NY the SPCA has taken show horses from kids to breeding stock from breeders. Now you might think these horses were endangered,starving,cripples etc. Think again. Sandys horses are not endangered.None of her foals were endangered. In fact sandy shipped some to Va. not long ago that were on the SPCAs list. I'm sure that their owners now were happy with them. Here is some of the vets comments about the suggested ones to be seized. One yearling with a white nose had what you might call sunburn. The vet with SPCA said the yearling had to be treated with sun block everyday. Our vet said that the redness came a weed in the pasture where most of it was shadded anyway. This one will kill you draft horse lovers. The head officer ofthe SPCA told my wife that the big draft mare (Shire,Bridgit) had swolen and infected Teets. She said that they need attention rite away or she would be subject to removel. Most of you know what a rat tail APP is. Well Sandy has two or three. The SPCA wants these horses to stay in the barn daytimes because they can't defend temselves against the flies. Sandy also has three blind mares. Most of you know who Sassy is. well the vet looked at these mares and said we have to put salve in their eyes. Now these mares have been blind for many years now. Will this salve do some kind of wonders? I later found out this is a vet out of NY city. A P.E.T.A. Vet. Other vets the SPCA use seem to be ones that don't have a very good practice. At least the ones I know. None of the horses or foals that were taken were in any danger. Sandy has had vets come in and evaluate her herd. Including the babies. all the vets that seen the horses said that the SPCA had no grounds for seizure of any of them. Yet the Judge signs the warrants.The other vets that are to far away haed written letters in her behalf. There is a TB farm up here that they are going to take 75 horses from. The clam is the water has ecoli in it. Dairy farms are not safe either. BUT its the horse breeders they want to take down and they as much as said that. WE are going through hell with this. Sandy had to go to jail for trying to defend her horses. I guess nobody told her she can't go after a SPCA officer with a tractor. Ya, a 62 yr old woman on a 50 yr old ford tractor with a 850 lb round bale on the back. Front wheels off the ground. Now how do you stear it at someone. Now I want to warn everyone that breeds. Don't let anyone in to your place that you don't know. Sandys problem started with a 3 yr old that was at another place for a while and that place fed a daly wormer. We could never get the weight back on that horse and I wanted to put it down. Sandy said wait a little longer. That was the only thin horse on the place except Ilana ,30 yr old mare. So keep an eye out as there is nobody out there watching over the SPCA. They have a free rain and will take you down. There are many stories out there, like ours. I can't get any help from anyone. NY State DA, NY State Dept, AG and Markets, Farm bureau, yet to hear fron Newspapers. Nobody wants to step on the SPCAs toes. It will go to court in Dec. Thats just when the mares will start foaling. The Nursemare herd is just fine. Not as many mares as some were sold this summer. Sandy has enough.to keep her running. I never ask for anyones help,if I can't solve my own problems, but this is different. We are excepting letters from anyone that has had the need of Sandys help. That knows what a life saver a Nursemare can be. People that have had runins with the SpCA. People that are breeders. The address is Sandys Nursemare Service, 70 Taft Ave, Poughkeepsie, NY 12603 . I hope none of you have to go through any of this. These people (SPCA) have to be stopped. They have to have a watchdog so to speek, keep them in check. Its like the gustopo. Same thing. Thanks for any help you can come up with. Len.

:no: Wasn't going to jump in here, but conscience dictates otherwise.

I live in this area and have visited Sandy's farm within the past few months with some friends who were interested in purchasing a foal. Quite honestly, the place is deplorable - from the conditions in the barn to the paddocks. After being escorted around (by Sandy), it was painfully clear to us that these foals were very malnourished and under developed. Actually, none of the horses we saw looked like they had been given more than a passing thought. I understand that this is a "business" for Sandy. However.... she is not selling auto parts or the like. I think the word "HUMANE" has to be considered where there is living, breathing life form...

Sandy spoke openly of her troubles with the SPCA. Which in all honesty only served to have us look even closer at the conditions and certainly realized that this was not a place to buy a healthy foal. We left feeling very sad and afraid for these horses.

I have since read about Sandy's subsequent "legal problems" and of the removal of some of the horses from the farm. Can't say I was surprised. Seems to me that if you point any vehicle (whether it be an old, beat up tractor - or even a tricycle) at any law enforcement officer, you will be taken to task over it. NO??

As for referring to the SPCA as "gustapo" ("GESTAPO").... that is simply ludicrous! And let me quickly point out (as I'm sure some of you will be jumping to this conclusion) that I am in no way affiliated with this organization. Should we also have a watchdog organization for Child Welfare? If we didn't have these "protection" agencies to step in... WHO THEN? I rest easier knowing that these organizations are in place and I think they deserve far better funding in order to do an often times THANKLESS job. I say BRAVO to the SPCA and commend them. I also pray to soon know that these horses in question will find themselves in a far healthier and humane conditions.

CHS
Nov. 2, 2007, 03:44 PM
[quote=Hillside H Ranch;2776868]

I doubt she was talking about me there. And she makes good points, too. Not everyone has the same standards when it comes to horse management and as I stated, I haven't seen Sandy in 15 years (but I've known her for 30+ years and grew up around the corner from where she is now, too).


I was not talking about you at all. I believe you and I are pretty much on the same page. While this isn't everyones "ideal" setting, it is far from a concentration camp for horses.

Centuree
Nov. 2, 2007, 04:00 PM
:no: Wasn't going to jump in here, but conscience dictates otherwise.

I live in this area and have visited Sandy's farm within the past few months with some friends who were interested in purchasing a foal. Quite honestly, the place is deplorable - from the conditions in the barn to the paddocks. After being escorted around (by Sandy), it was painfully clear to us that these foals were very malnourished and under developed. Actually, none of the horses we saw looked like they had been given more than a passing thought. I understand that this is a "business" for Sandy. However.... she is not selling auto parts or the like. I think the word "HUMANE" has to be considered where there is living, breathing life form...

Sandy spoke openly of her troubles with the SPCA. Which in all honesty only served to have us look even closer at the conditions and certainly realized that this was not a place to buy a healthy foal. We left feeling very sad and afraid for these horses.

I have since read about Sandy's subsequent "legal problems" and of the removal of some of the horses from the farm. Can't say I was surprised. Seems to me that if you point any vehicle (whether it be an old, beat up tractor - or even a tricycle) at any law enforcement officer, you will be taken to task over it. NO??

As for referring to the SPCA as "gustapo" ("GESTAPO").... that is simply ludicrous! And let me quickly point out (as I'm sure some of you will be jumping to this conclusion) that I am in no way affiliated with this organization. Should we also have a watchdog organization for Child Welfare? If we didn't have these "protection" agencies to step in... WHO THEN? I rest easier knowing that these organizations are in place and I think they deserve far better funding in order to do an often times THANKLESS job. I say BRAVO to the SPCA and commend them. I also pray to soon know that these horses in question will find themselves in a far healthier and humane conditions.

Agreed! Whenever we utilize animals as a business, we need these agencies to ensure their welfare. Its about stewardship - business or not.

abrant
Nov. 2, 2007, 07:13 PM
I can't believe I am ashamed to bring this up... considering all that has passed in the last couple weeks, but I'll say it.

I was recently accused of neglect by the local equine humane group.

It was a disgruntled ex-employee that made the complaint.

I had an injured foal and a 27 year old stallion. The foal was improving, she had nerve damage which resulted from a hematoma caused by a kick... from her dam.

I'm ashamed to say I had the foal euthanized because I feared for my career. She would have had lasting joint damage, but had a decent chance of becoming pasture sound. However, I know these people and I knew the harassment would not stop until she was gone.

I explained about the old stallion. Told them wait he eats (straight Omegatin and timothy cubes), told them his medication regume.

I thought it would be over.

No.

Now they said that ALL the horses on the property EXCEPT mine (two ponies) were being inhumanely cared for.

She basically tried to get me fired. (My ponies are OBESE and their vet is horrified by their condition, we're working on it).

They called friends at the racetrack where we race and spread the rumour that all of our horses were starving.

This effectively ended my layup/boarding business.

They basically came onto the property when I was out of town (I'm 99% sure said ex-employee knew I would be gone) and showed themselves around. The 'vet' that was with the head of this organization made several 'diagnoses' without any history or even laying her hand on the horses. She pronounced the foal had a broken leg (no), the old stallion didn't have cushings (aside from the blood work, he has most every clinical sign), a 2 year old had "serious dental problems" (shedding his caps, as young horses are wont to do...he had been floated a month prior anyhow), and another mare had a puncture wound in her joint (she has an 'old knee' from a fracture at the track, I actually know nothing about her, my boss directed I load her up at the end of a racemeet)

They kept coming BACK. They demanded information. They called and harassed our vets. They said my hay was worthless (without testing it... it's 3rd cutting 80/20 grass/alfalfa, btw).
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i308/adriennebrant/Hay.jpg
They said my pastures were worthless and full of weeds. (This was October 17th, btw).
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i308/adriennebrant/NEPasture.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i308/adriennebrant/NEPastureDetail.jpg

I haven't uploaded all the horses pictures yet (I did a full catalog of every horse on the property) but if you go through my photobucket, you'll see plenty of them).

We finally called the USDA and invited them to come do a herd inspection.

Yes, we got a clean bill of health. They asked for documentation for the old horse and that's it. She looked at every horse. We discussed the program. One horse other than the old one 'needs weight'. I have 45 horses on the property. She warned me about my fat ponies (lol).

It did break my heart to read the formal charges by the humane group. 35 horses inhumanely treated. Hidden around the property. Hidden in back pastures. Horse with broken leg. Emaciated horse.

Thankfully, we were in the clear. It's a lovely farm. We have horses that don't actually DO much of anything (ha, we're basically a retirement farm). My staff is fabulous. Our feed and hay suppliers are top notch. Our vets are knowledgable and loyal.

I can't believe this could happen to me. I wonder about the horses TRULY suffering.

~Adrienne

.

sid
Nov. 2, 2007, 07:13 PM
It's not unusual for well meaning, even passionate people to get in over their heads when it comes to financing the care and well-being of horses.

It appears that may be the case here. Passion can also become an addiction. Couple that with age and declining energy and financial troubles that so often come with supporting large numbers of horses "forever" -- well, it can cloud one's objectivity.

It sounds as if this might be the case here. So very, very sad for the horses involved, as well as the owner, who by trying to do right for others, didn't realize her others at home were on the the "back burner". Sacrificing for others is one thing, but letting other horses sacrifice is quite another.

rcloisonne
Nov. 2, 2007, 07:44 PM
Sandy also has three blind mares. Most of you know who Sassy is. well the vet looked at these mares and said we have to put salve in their eyes. Now these mares have been blind for many years now. Will this salve do some kind of wonders? I later found out this is a vet out of NY city. A P.E.T.A. Vet.
Clue#1: The "salves" won't bring their vision back but if the appys have uveitis (quite common in this breed) it is critical you treat them during a flare up. Blindness does not make the condition go away. Uveitis is excruciatingly painful. If you can't be bothered to treat them and won't have their eyes enucleated, please put them down. It is extremely cruel to allow any horse to suffer with untreated ERU! :mad:


Don't let anyone in to your place that you don't know.
Clue#2: All the hoarders on the planet feel that way. You are not alone.


Sandys problem started with a 3 yr old that was at another place for a while and that place fed a daly wormer. We could never get the weight back on that horse and I wanted to put it down. Sandy said wait a little longer. That was the only thin horse on the place except Ilana ,30 yr old mare. So keep an eye out as there is nobody out there watching over the SPCA.
Clue#3: I've boarded at many top show barns where all the horses, including many "A" circuit champions, have been on daily dewormer and there wasn't a thin or sickly one one in the bunch. Many top equine veterinary clinics in the country recommend it. Look elsewhere for the cause of this poor horse's problems.

Clue#4: Have your own equine veterinarian step up to the plate and explain to those ignorant, heartless, SPCA, card carrying PETA trash that all of the horses in your custody are receiving really great care. :rolleyes:

TwoArabs
Nov. 2, 2007, 08:04 PM
I can't say much about horse rescue, but due to all the starving horses around here, I've been thinking about taking in rescue. However, my place is along a road and if it is too sdkinny, I'm sure I'll get reported.

I'm on the Board of a local companion animal rescue and I have real problems with people who feel that they are animal lovers and will pick up a dog along the road and bring to me and feel real good and believe that they are rescuers. If they want to be real rescuers they need to do the work.

Why can't some of these folks who see starving horses just drive up the driveway and ask if there is something they can do to help out. I'm consdtantly getting calls about horses. I ask them if they've talked to the owner and I always get a "No."

They want the animals cared for, but don't want to make any effort whatsoever to find out what is really going on. They call someonelse to do the dirty work.

YankeeLawyer
Nov. 3, 2007, 12:17 PM
I can't believe I am ashamed to bring this up... considering all that has passed in the last couple weeks, but I'll say it.

I was recently accused of neglect by the local equine humane group.

It was a disgruntled ex-employee that made the complaint.

I had an injured foal and a 27 year old stallion. The foal was improving, she had nerve damage which resulted from a hematoma caused by a kick... from her dam.

I'm ashamed to say I had the foal euthanized because I feared for my career. She would have had lasting joint damage, but had a decent chance of becoming pasture sound. However, I know these people and I knew the harassment would not stop until she was gone.

I explained about the old stallion. Told them wait he eats (straight Omegatin and timothy cubes), told them his medication regume.

I thought it would be over.

No.

Now they said that ALL the horses on the property EXCEPT mine (two ponies) were being inhumanely cared for.

She basically tried to get me fired. (My ponies are OBESE and their vet is horrified by their condition, we're working on it).

They called friends at the racetrack where we race and spread the rumour that all of our horses were starving.

This effectively ended my layup/boarding business.

They basically came onto the property when I was out of town (I'm 99% sure said ex-employee knew I would be gone) and showed themselves around. The 'vet' that was with the head of this organization made several 'diagnoses' without any history or even laying her hand on the horses. She pronounced the foal had a broken leg (no), the old stallion didn't have cushings (aside from the blood work, he has most every clinical sign), a 2 year old had "serious dental problems" (shedding his caps, as young horses are wont to do...he had been floated a month prior anyhow), and another mare had a puncture wound in her joint (she has an 'old knee' from a fracture at the track, I actually know nothing about her, my boss directed I load her up at the end of a racemeet)

They kept coming BACK. They demanded information. They called and harassed our vets. They said my hay was worthless (without testing it... it's 3rd cutting 80/20 grass/alfalfa, btw).
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i308/adriennebrant/Hay.jpg
They said my pastures were worthless and full of weeds. (This was October 17th, btw).
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i308/adriennebrant/NEPasture.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i308/adriennebrant/NEPastureDetail.jpg

I haven't uploaded all the horses pictures yet (I did a full catalog of every horse on the property) but if you go through my photobucket, you'll see plenty of them).

We finally called the USDA and invited them to come do a herd inspection.

Yes, we got a clean bill of health. They asked for documentation for the old horse and that's it. She looked at every horse. We discussed the program. One horse other than the old one 'needs weight'. I have 45 horses on the property. She warned me about my fat ponies (lol).

It did break my heart to read the formal charges by the humane group. 35 horses inhumanely treated. Hidden around the property. Hidden in back pastures. Horse with broken leg. Emaciated horse.

Thankfully, we were in the clear. It's a lovely farm. We have horses that don't actually DO much of anything (ha, we're basically a retirement farm). My staff is fabulous. Our feed and hay suppliers are top notch. Our vets are knowledgable and loyal.

I can't believe this could happen to me. I wonder about the horses TRULY suffering.

~Adrienne

.

I am so sorry about your foal. It looks like you handled the situation well by calling the USDA.

handilady
Nov. 3, 2007, 09:00 PM
You know the saying, opinions are like butts, everybody has one! Maybe we should not give one (opinion) unless we are in the position or have seen what is spoken about. By reading these posts that the people who have been at her farm see problems. People who know her horses only speak highly of her and have NOT been to her farm. My feeling is we should leave this subject alone unless you have facts on the situation.

chaltagor
Nov. 3, 2007, 09:45 PM
You know the saying, opinions are like butts, everybody has one! Maybe we should not give one (opinion) unless we are in the position or have seen what is spoken about. By reading these posts that the people who have been at her farm see problems. People who know her horses only speak highly of her and have NOT been to her farm. My feeling is we should leave this subject alone unless you have facts on the situation.

Then maybe you should tell her HUSBAND not to start threads about it, hmmm? :rolleyes: No one would be discussing it if it wasn't posted by him.

Cheeky Girl
Nov. 4, 2007, 01:43 AM
I can't say much about horse rescue, but due to all the starving horses around here, I've been thinking about taking in rescue. However, my place is along a road and if it is too sdkinny, I'm sure I'll get reported.

I'm on the Board of a local companion animal rescue and I have real problems with people who feel that they are animal lovers and will pick up a dog along the road and bring to me and feel real good and believe that they are rescuers. If they want to be real rescuers they need to do the work.

Why can't some of these folks who see starving horses just drive up the driveway and ask if there is something they can do to help out. I'm consdtantly getting calls about horses. I ask them if they've talked to the owner and I always get a "No."

They want the animals cared for, but don't want to make any effort whatsoever to find out what is really going on. They call someonelse to do the dirty work.

Seems to me that any/all "dirty work" or DEEDS done in this horror story was done by this woman SANDY and her husband!

What I didn't elaborate on in my earlier post, was that I did in fact "investigate" after my visit to the farm, only to discover that there are 21 counts of cruelty to animals pending against Sandy. And that she has left a trail of similar charges in several other states. Don't know if she was convicted of any of them. But that in and of itself is rather telling.

Trust me when I say that this is not a woman who you could casually walk up to and question about the health of her horses. Not unless you were ready to rumble. Her demeanor was quite volatile and combative - even to prospective buyers! Her subsequent arrest for attempted assault - attempting to "defend her horses" - (uh... WAS SHE ALSO "DEFENDING " THEM WHILE SHE WATCHED MANY OF THEM STARVE TO DEATH????). speaks for itself.

While I can understand and agree with your thoughts on people picking up dogs and dropping them off at a rescue facility and then thinking they've done something "good" (which in fact, they have). Not everyone is in a position to take on an animal, care for it and find a home. And this most certainly would apply to horses! Particularly when there are many DOZENS of horses that need rescuing here. I work for people who are kind hearted and are in a position with the facility and space to take in some of these foals. The offer has been made.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if everyone would step up to the plate when they see an abused or neglected animal. But people are also aware that sadly, confrontation (even in a most gentle and courteous way) isn't always the wisest road to take. Particularly when you don't if you are going to be met with the same courtesy. The people who reported this woman to the SPCA/police did the wise and correct thing. People who "noticed" don't deserve to have fingers pointed at them. But above all, these abused/neglected/starved/innocent creatures MUST be the FOCUS.

pwynnnorman
Nov. 4, 2007, 08:01 AM
What I didn't elaborate on in my earlier post, was that I did in fact "investigate" after my visit to the farm, only to discover that there are 21 counts of cruelty to animals pending against Sandy. And that she has left a trail of similar charges in several other states. Don't know if she was convicted of any of them. But that in and of itself is rather telling.


Well, I'm sorry to hear that nothing seems to have changed. And, yes, when I mentioned a "history," those other instances are indeed what I was referring to. Sadly, they just move somewhere else--and for that, I really blame the system for being so unwilling to put an end to it or at least force change.

And I wonder if that's not a problem with a lot of other hoarders and other well-meaning but somewhat unstable individuals and their animals. Can't law enforcement issue fines sufficient to pay for regular, unscheduled inspections or something? And wouldn't it be nice if ASPCA could network with its branches to create a searchable database--maybe even keyword searchable (like "nursemare" or "pitbull")--so that when an inquiry/complaint comes in, they can find out if it is a repeat offender (so-to-speak) who has just moved into another area and continued, er..."offending".

And again, I wonder about the clients, like those who posted positively here. I'll bet some of you are pretty shocked now, aren't you? Well, that's the problem I mentioned before, which bothers me a lot. We can be so ignorant of who or what really pays for our comforts and pleasures. Granted, some are NOT ignorant and yet continue their support.

Cheeky Girl
Nov. 4, 2007, 09:11 AM
Well, I'm sorry to hear that nothing seems to have changed. And, yes, when I mentioned a "history," those other instances are indeed what I was referring to. Sadly, they just move somewhere else--and for that, I really blame the system for being so unwilling to put an end to it or at least force change.

And I wonder if that's not a problem with a lot of other hoarders and other well-meaning but somewhat unstable individuals and their animals. Can't law enforcement issue fines sufficient to pay for regular, unscheduled inspections or something? And wouldn't it be nice if ASPCA could network with its branches to create a searchable database--maybe even keyword searchable (like "nursemare" or "pitbull")--so that when an inquiry/complaint comes in, they can find out if it is a repeat offender (so-to-speak) who has just moved into another area and continued, er..."offending".

And again, I wonder about the clients, like those who posted positively here. I'll bet some of you are pretty shocked now, aren't you? Well, that's the problem I mentioned before, which bothers me a lot. We can be so ignorant of who or what really pays for our comforts and pleasures. Granted, some are NOT ignorant and yet continue their support.

Very well said. Bravo!:)

Tamara in TN
Nov. 4, 2007, 09:26 AM
[QUOTE=pwynnnorman;2779916] And wouldn't it be nice if ASPCA could network with its branches to create a searchable database--maybe even keyword searchable (like "nursemare" or "pitbull")--so that when an inquiry/complaint comes in, they can find out if it is a repeat offender (so-to-speak) who has just moved into another area and continued, er..."offending".

QUOTE]

I think www.petabuse.com comes pretty close to that

Tamara in TN

Hillside H Ranch
Nov. 4, 2007, 10:09 AM
Pwynnnorman,
I agree with you completely about creating a system to better track these offenses. The problem is that so many law enforcement organizations just aren't interested in going after these people or they don't have the resources. For instance, when I was investigating these cases, I was working for a humane society/animal shelter type organization. A complaint would come in and I could investigate; ie. go to the property and attempt to make contact with the owner, view the animals and try to educate the client on the situation if there was a problem. But I had no law enforcement powers whatsoever (and many animal welfare investigators have the same constraints). So if my attempt at educating the owner wasn't having an effect on the situation then I had to contact either local animal control or a local law enforcement agency to attempt to get them involved. This can be very difficult to do, especially in rural area, which is where many of these long-term/hoarding type cases occur. You have to find an officer willing to put in the leg-work, a judge willing to listen and issue warrants/citations and if the cases goes to court, you have to have a prosecuting attorney willing to prosecute. I have hit brick walls at all these levels. I have been told by law enforcement officials and PAs that the had bigger/more serious cases to worry about. And sometimes I can't argue with that; child abuse, murders, rapes, etc. should take priority IMHO. In a small town it can be really hard to pursue any type of enforcement, because of the "good old boy" network. But, there are some professionals out there who are willing to go after these cases and for them I am grateful. And there are some organizations now that are networking to track these types of habitual offender, but most of those programs are in their infancy. It can be really hard when you start talking about crossing state lines; but with the internet being what it is it is certainly getting easier to find these types of details out, even on your own.

abrant
Nov. 5, 2007, 08:46 PM
Seems like a good idea.

What turned out to be nothing but a false alarm at my farm, however, could be documented and ruin my life.

Is it worth destroying innocent people?

I think, if anything, it teaches us in this computer age to be more hands-on with the people we do business with, if possible.

JackSprats Mom
Nov. 5, 2007, 10:29 PM
I think www.petabuse.com (http://www.petabuse.com/) comes pretty close to that

Nice idea, but falls WAY short :(, it just has major publicity cases, stuff that can be googled, not the smaller cases that have been tried or investigated.

Abrant
What turned out to be nothing but a false alarm at my farm, however, could be documented and ruin my life It will be documented but should show 'No violations'. No offense but several things were either done illegally in the investigation of the incident on your property or you've only told half the story- either way I'm glad, if nothing was found, that you've worked it out. Oh and you can get a copy of the report by putting in for public disclosure and find out what they said.

clouddancer
Nov. 5, 2007, 10:59 PM
This is the last person Sandy and Len want to hear from. I have watched and heard of this woman starving horses for 8 years now. YES I have seen it with my own eyes. One of the biggest mistakes I ever made was letting this woman bring her horses to my farm back in 1999. She has moved 7 times in 8 years....makes you kind of wonder......why sooo many moves?....Because no matter what county or state she moves to there will always be people that will complain to humane associations because SHE DOES STARVE HORSES. But to satisfy her defenders out there she does not starve them all. The horses of color are fed because she feels they are the ones that will bring her sale money. I watched this woman take a foal that was less then 24 hrs old off of his mare so she could send the mare to Kentucky to save another foal. For 3 days the foal refused to drink the milk replacer she put in the stall when she introduced him to the replacer she put the bucket on a wall dragged him over and stuck his face in it. I watched in horror as he became weaker and weaker from not eating. When I remarked to her about his not eating and his condition her response was.....verbatim...."f--k him if he is too stupid to eat he deserves to die" At this point I told her she needed to leave my farm with all her horses. That is another horror story in itself. Yes nursemares serve a purpose but at what cost. You take a mare away from her own foal to save another foal only to risk the health and life of the foal left behind because his mother is serving a wonderful purpose. I could go on and on and on and on.....but not enough time to post everything I know about this horrible excuse for a human being. As for the people that defend her..... trust me you did not see all there was to see....you saw what she wanted you to see.

Leigh
Nov. 5, 2007, 11:14 PM
I have a very hard time understanding the good that comes sacrificing one foal to save another?
I would find it easier to understand a network for orphaned foals and mares that have lost their foals and mares that foster and produce milk without having deliberately been put infoal for that very reason.
Every post I've read from the OP tells a sob story with the hidden agenda of making money either by renting out a nursemare or selling one of the by products :(

sid
Nov. 6, 2007, 05:10 AM
pynn -- yes, indeed, I am shocked. I am now no longer "ignorant".

But then, I never would have suspected a well-known HB breeder would have nearly starved one of my broodmares and her foal to death a few years ago either.

...shaking my head.

JSwan
Nov. 6, 2007, 07:39 AM
I can't speak to this particular case - but I think that a couple of interesting points have been made.

Increasingly, local animal control/shelter operations are being contracted out. I don't have a problem with that in principle, as such operations are usually nonprofit and saves the local government money. In poor counties - it's especially effective.

BUT: there is a downside to this. The "nonprofit" isn't necessarily nonbiased. For example, if the nonprofit is run by people who have political opinions about farming, or hunting, or NURSEMARE farms - they may target them.

We may wonder why they aren't focusing on the starving dog down the road, instead of going after a local foxhunt, or kennel, or breeding stable - and it will be because the shelter is more focused on accomplishing its political goals rather than being a true shelter/AC operation.

Or the nonprofit may know next to nothing about livestock and how they may be cared for differently.

You'd be surprised at the number of no-kill shelters that are run by crazy people. Heck - the rescue I work with helped save over 100 dogs that were housed in a shelter built for 15 dogs. They were starved, full of mange, and lying in their own feces. The sewer had backed up into the kennel.

This SPCA was the local animal shelter - the county had to come in and shut it down. Many animals starved to death.

So "SPCA" shouldn't be considered the seal of approval it used to be. We should all be aware of what's going on in our communities, and ensure that the folks running our shelters focus on real abuse and neglect - not "blindfolded horses standing in mud".

(which at my place means that they have flymasks on and are waiting their turn to roll in the pig wallow after I've given them a bath!)



Oh - I love to relate this story - A while back I was watching one of those cops type shows on Animal Planet. The "officer" with a long blond ponytail was investigating a case of horse neglect.

She walks up to a nice green pasture and says - look - this horse has no food. It needs to have food.

I'm thinking - nice shiny horse in a grass filled paddock with a full trough of water.

They try and catch the horse - 3 guys jump the fence and chase it. She says - oh - that horse has been abused - it's running away from us.

I'm thinking - uh - 3 strangers jump a fence and chase a horse and it runs away. No sh**.


This horse is running around terrified by these people - but they finally manage to catch it and wrestle it onto a trailer. Horse was in good flesh, shiny, trimmed hooves, and it was seized by this moronic woman - who had the full force of the law behind her.

Because SHE said it was neglected - and the judge relied on her representations because she's supposed to know what the heck she's doing.

So some person came home and found their horse gone and a notice of seizure on their door. How are they supposed to defend themselves? No probable cause, no 4th amendment protection - nothing. Just come in and take your animal.

When I think of all the real cases of abuse and neglect - I shudder to think that in some areas, animal control is manned by idiots like that. And I think that local government has a duty to citizens to ensure that if shelter/ACO operations are contracted out - the orgs are apolitical and given the same training as law enforcement. Otherwise - it's a system ripe for political ax griding and incompetence.

sid
Nov. 6, 2007, 08:03 AM
Great post...excellent points.

Tiki
Nov. 6, 2007, 10:37 AM
She walks up to a nice green pasture and says - look - this horse has no food. It needs to have food. J Swan, I'd be laughing my a$$ off at this if this weren't what happened to me. In my post about about being turned in to the sherriff for neglect and not feeding my horses I left out a piece. When the sheriff came back to 'interview' me the nosy neighbors were standing across the street watching the whole interview. The sheriff told me to turn my back so we could talk 'privately'. She said that one of their complaints was that the horses had nothing to eat. She looked over the property, saw my beautiful (pre-drought) grass and told me she asked them, "What's that green stuff all over the yard?" They said, "grass". She said, "Isn't that what horses eat? Looks to me like they have plenty of food - and as well, I can see hay up in the shed".

Fortunately, I got a sheriff that had some clue at what she was looking at. She also told me that when they complained that my dogs were neglected because I was away from the house so long each day she said, "Then arrest me too as I also work 12 hour shifts and MY dog is home alone all day. At least hers have each other and a huge yard to play in".

I was very lucky. I don't know how you separate the real complaints (which often don't get properly prosecuted) from the nutcase complaints (which often do)!

Fairview Horse Center
Nov. 6, 2007, 11:51 AM
You guys really hit on a big problem. GREAT POSTS!! The lack of education is putting good owners and healthy horses at risk of seizure, the same as it puts real cases of neglect at risk of continued starvation and cruelty. This becomes compounded when you have a person with a grudge that has a passing knowledge to make it SOUND like they know what they are talking about, "leading the blind" (judges, etc).

A little knowledge can also be worse than none. There are so many myths involving horses.

I am reminded of a time several years ago. A farm about 1/2 a mile away was hosting a small show. A few of my boarders wanted to go, but had no trailer, so they decided to lead them down the side of the (rural) road. Another boarder followed them in her car, to keep other vehicles from running up on them, and scaring the horses. A police officer pulled her over for obstructing traffic (not a heavily traveled road). When she explained, he said, "Lady, we had horses when I was younger. Horses are not afraid of cars". He gave her a ticket.

I have had quite a few disagreements with the OP, as I have just never been able to feel that the nursemare industry is not based on cruelty. Very sad to hear in this case, it may be more than what upsets me about the industry itself. I hope the truth comes out - for the horses' sake.

hey101
Nov. 6, 2007, 04:07 PM
I never had problems with SPCA or AC, but I did have a few of my friends innocently ask me about my horses standing outside in the (rain, snow, sleet, etc) when they came over to our farm.

I told them that the horses were CHOOSING to be out in that weather, as they had free access AT ALL TIMES to a sheltered run-in.

I also informed them that horses prefer much colder temperatures than people do, so what is "cold" for us is "comfortable" for the horses (someone needs to tell SoCal peeps that part about horses liking the cold- it's in the mid-50's to 70's here, and I've seen people putting medium to heavy-weight turnout BLANKETS on their horses already! Something I wouldn't have used in SE PA until about January!).

But I digress. There really is a lot of ignorance out there on the part of the general public about what is "good" for horses, but once they are educated, it doesn't seem to be a problem (at least, my friends seemed to get it!)

pmc
Nov. 6, 2007, 05:09 PM
One thing I've always loved about this board is that if a thread goes on long enough, eventually the truth comes out. ;)

Lenny
Nov. 6, 2007, 06:46 PM
First I would like to thank everyone that sent letters that I can pass on to the lawyers. Its nice to know that so many out there know Sandy and appreciate what she does. Then there are those that don't like the nursemare business and will jump at a thread like this to downgread her as much as they can. Whynn, Sandy was a good friend when you needed her. I remember so well. This cheeky girl states Sandy starves horses? What is all that hay doing in the barn, 500 round and square bales. Deplorable, its a old dairy complex. So sorry its not a a million dollor barn with nice paddoks. The horses run in fields, not little pens. If you don't want to pay the askng price for a foal, don't even come around kicking tires. Sorry Sandy couldn't just give you one. The counts against Sandy consist of a foal with a hearnia, on with sunburn, one wit weak back pasterns( that the ferrier had put special shoes on.) One foal had a pot belly. one you could see the ribs. etc Just bulls..t. She had one horse out of 70 that was skinny. [edited] Sandy has moved 3 times sense we left our farm in Delaware county NY. There were places that she was supposed to be going to , but they never worked out. People have trapped her into the worst situations because they wanted to hurt her and her business. Scum of our planet. These people that say Sandy starves her horses are no better than what the horses leave on the ground. Starving just the solid horses is an example of the stupid minds that are out there. I started this to warn people that the SPCA can and will wreck your lives and the way you live. There are so many people out there that want breeders to stop breeding and Start petting farms. Thats rite animals are not livestock anymore, There lapdogs, pets and whatever. Speaking of abuse, I see horses locked up in stalls, in the hot summer,no fans,running and I mean running the walls, trying to get away from the flies. They have big welts on them, some even bleeding. These are in well to do barns, Barns that would cost 6 or even 7 figures. The cost of a fly control system is just to much. We really dn't have that much of a problem. So why did ya call me? Those horses don't deserve that and Sandy don't deserve what she has to put up with. I will say this again,anyone can come to the barn and see for themselves. See the dairy complex. See the horses and make your own judgment. Or listen to [others's point of view]. Thats that. I hope nobody has bad nightmares living up the road or has one ride by their farm. Remember Livestock is gone. Now there is the pet horses and other animals that live in million dollor houses with a person running after them with a shovel and a bucket. Best to the best of here. Len

pwynnnorman
Nov. 6, 2007, 07:18 PM
When I needed her, Lenny? Your wife and I tried to have mutually beneficial arrangements--until she wouldn't respect me enough to feed my horse my way. I respected her enough to turn a blind eye to things I disagreed with about her horse management--and I've tried to be as fair as possible about her in this thread. But as I stated, ethically, I've had a hard time keeping quiet about your claims, Lenny. Did she not tell you how she threatened me about Teddy? Or do you think I have some reason to lie about that? Why don't you ask her what happened to his offspring? I have a picture of an emaciated speckled bay filly with elves toes. It haunts me to this day, which is why I wrote with genuine saddness about the pleasures we enjoy and who sometimes ends up paying for them.

Fairview Horse Center
Nov. 6, 2007, 07:45 PM
Lenny
Pictures speak louder than words. Get a camera, and start snapping photos of the 70 horses, and post them on a free server. If what you say is true, that is the best thing you can do to help Sandy's case, and help her reputation.

Timex
Nov. 6, 2007, 08:09 PM
ok, here's an idea, lenny. i don't know you or sandy from adam and eve, but i am from the area, grew up in poughkeepsie. have one of the local vets out and get a statment from them backing you up. there's plenty of vets in the area, Millbrook Equine, Rhinebeck Equine, Mark Jordan is good, Paul Mountain or John Mort, Jager, Grice, any of them. hell, i'll get you thier phone numbers if you'd like.

clouddancer
Nov. 6, 2007, 10:26 PM
[b]Lenny your math is as lousy as your spelling. Here let me do it for you..[edited] 2 different locations in Walton....Stalley's place on Eager Rd in Montgomery....Millenium Farm on Eager Rd in Montgomery....Crevani Farm in Pine bush.....Stony Ford Ranch in Hamptonburgh.....my farm on 207 in Campbell Hall......last but not least in Orange County the farm in Warwick you remember don't you? That was another location besides my place that you and your wife left dead carcasses to rot. [edited] I have pictures from both locations to prove it. Like everyone thoughout this entire thread has been telling you pictures speak louder than words. Should the SPCA want copies of my photos I would be more than willing to provide them :winkgrin:

pmc
Nov. 7, 2007, 07:39 AM
Lenny
Pictures speak louder than words. Get a camera, and start snapping photos of the 70 horses, and post them on a free server. If what you say is true, that is the best thing you can do to help Sandy's case, and help her reputation.

Proving that the 70 well-cared-for horses photographed were actually theirs might be a little trickier, though... :yes: ;)

handilady
Nov. 7, 2007, 07:47 AM
Pictures are worth a 1000 words. Clouddancer send the pic to the SPCA maybe it will prove a point!

Tamara in TN
Nov. 7, 2007, 08:46 AM
First I would like to thank everyone that sent letters that I can pass on to the lawyers. Len

dude....let it go...you are tossing gas on a flame...

Tamara in TN

Tazer
Nov. 7, 2007, 01:24 PM
If you go to the ad, there is a picture of the colt.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.freehorseads.com/class/photo.php?adnum=33367&horsename=Guderian

The best of 2 worlds...The movement and Athletic abilities of an Elite Hanoverian Stallion and color,endurance and stamina of a Foundation Appaloosa Mare. Guderian passed on this summer Thus the name Guderian's Sunset. Guderian's only colored Foal

For Sale - Guderian's Sunset Will Make The Headlines
Guderian's Sunset

Ad # 33367 Breed Warmblood Sale Price $15000
Color White Tri Leopard,Red Spot Rider Level Horse Not Broke Gender Colt
City Poughkeeepsie State New York Area Code 845
Age 55 Months Height 10 HH Weight ?

Disciplines

() Harness () Draft () Dressage () Brood Mare () Calf Roping
() Cutting () Halter () Companion () Trail Horse () Western Pleasure
() Driving () 4H () Endurance () Team Roping () English Pleasure
() Eventing () Hunter () Kid Safe () Homozygous () Team Penning
() Reining () Racing () Jumping () Barrel Racing () Pleasure Driving

Bloodline

Registered? :y Reg #(s) : Reg Assoc :Appaloosa Sporthorse


Sire: Guderian [Hanoverian]


Dam: JCA Navajo Moon [Appaloosa]

Tiki
Nov. 7, 2007, 01:37 PM
And that colt looks starved and with elve's feet because..........

Tazer
Nov. 7, 2007, 03:33 PM
I apologize if the last post gives anyone a false impression of the current horse care provided at the Kistner farm. The ad and the photo are from 2003.

The price tag prompted me to post. A little unrealistic for an unbroke colt, I thought.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guderian's Sunset

Poughkeeepsie , New York

Foal Date: May 2003

Color: White Gender: Colt

Breed: Warmblood

Height: 10 hh

Ad #: 33367

Placed or Renewed: 09/04/2003 12:12 pm

myhorse
Nov. 7, 2007, 04:06 PM
What does the price that they asked for a colt in 03 have to do with the current case? You are starting to sound a bit biased in all regards of Sandy's business.

Note, I do not know anything about any of this or the people involved. I just found this particular post odd.

Tazer
Nov. 7, 2007, 04:34 PM
After I posted, I discovered how old the ad was and wanted to make sure that those, like Tiki, did not use a 4 year old photo to defend what might be going on today. Alot can happen in 4 years and things can change.

The fact that this case has been ongoing since August is enough to make me believe the SPCA is warranted in their investigation. If the initial complaint was unfounded, Sandy would not have been arrested on felony charges and her husband would not be on public forums trying to drum up sympathy from strangers on the internet.

I have to wonder how relevant letters in support of the nursemare industry will be to this case. Sandy's clients probably never visit her farm, they call her and then are delivered a mare. Their support is based solely on one facet of her business, not her entire operation. I believe the issue at this time is her general herd management.

I feel if this farm was as reputable as they want us to believe, they would not have to troll the internet for support, they could have relied on their regular veterinarians, current clients and the present conditions of their animals.

According to the articles, this is the 2nd seizure in 3 months.

JackSprats Mom
Nov. 8, 2007, 12:28 AM
The long and the short of it is guy, whether the SPCA was right or wrong in their seizure, its now in the hands of a court to be tried by a jury of her peers- we shall see whether it was valid or not.

Tiki
Nov. 8, 2007, 10:27 AM
and wanted to make sure that those, like Tiki (HUH!!!), did not use a 4 year old photo to defend (???) what might be going on todayMAN are YOU out of line. All I asked was how the picture you posted showed a starving horse. You apparently have a HUGE ax to grind with these people. I have neither defended them nor taken them over the coals at any point in this post. All I have ever said - which is true beyond a shadow of a doubt, based on my, and other posters, experience - is that many, many times complaints are made by good intnetioned, but uneducated people, and sometimes they're made by vindictive crackpots. I have NO other stand on this. I don't know these people from a hole in the ground.

CHS
Nov. 8, 2007, 12:22 PM
I posted earlier about knowing Sandy and Len and being to their place numerous times and never seeing anything that would concern me. Certainly nothing that would warrent calling the authorities or I would have done so. I wouldn't come on a thread and bash someone UNLESS I was actually doing something to "fix" what I thought was wrong.

For those of you who have so much "dirt" on them and have pictures and knowledge of all of the nasty things they've done to horses, why haven't YOU done anything about it?

If all of your "allegations" are true, then in my book you are MORE GUILTY than Sandy and Len because YOU are standing by letting it happen.

Rather than dishing it out here on a BB go do something about it. Prove your case against them.

I've seen a lot of Coth people and their horses. There are some in "A" barns with beautiful facilities and the best feed money can buy. I have to tell you when I see some of them ride I have to look away. While the horse is in great condition and they keep them in beautiful places, their riding IMHO is cruelty at it's finest. Is it cruelty in the eyes of the law? Not yet, but if people keep it up it will be.

Keep trying to get everyone to live up to your standards and see what happens. Pretty soon we won't be able to keep, ride or show our horses anymore.

An old farmer friend of mine once said,
"If you've got livestock, you've got deadstock"

Horses get old, and horses die. I wish my horses would stay looking 5 years old and live forever. Unfortunately that doesn't happen in the real world.
I've had dead horses on my property. Numerous dead horses. When you deal with herds of 40+ horses guess what? Some are going to die eventually. Sometimes the ground is too frozen to dig. Sometimes the company you call to pick up the body is booked solid and they can't get to you until the next day or so.
I've known of great people who have had a dead horse or two under a tarp for what most would consider a long time because the ground was frozen and they couldn't dig.
It's life.
The only people who would have a problem with any of the above are people who think they know horses. People who DO know horses and are experienced horse people know that what I've written are just the sad facts of life.

Those of you spouting off need to take a step back. Owning a horse or two doesn't make you a horseman/woman.

If nothing else this thread has made me so thankful that I live where I do and that I have the best horsepeople as friends.
My property is surrounded by "good ole' boy" farmers who know livestock, not "foo, foo wanna be" riders. My neighbors upon seeing a dead animal on my farm would come over, offer condolences, and offer to help with the body. The would NEVER consider calling the authorities.

okggo
Nov. 8, 2007, 01:14 PM
I'm going to stay out of the mud slinging as I have no knowledge on this one way or another, but can add two things I've dealt with:
1) A vehicle passing by the farm came in and told me there was a dead horse in the field. We went out there, and my gelding (of course him, the doof) had rolled down a snow bank and was stuck, all 4 feet straight up in the air. While he wan't dead, he did require assistance to get unstuck, so we were thankful they let us know!
2) A friend of mine bought a small farmette and probably 2 months after moving in was notified by the Zoning board she would have to remove one of her horses. A neighbor had complained, she was ONE horse over the zoning limit.

I've heard other stories about complaints, and I know if/when we get a place we will be sure our ducks are in a row legally (i.e. zoning, noise complaints, SMELL complaints, buildings are put up where they are allowed, etc. etc.) Some counties are ag friendly and basically say you can't sue for farm odors and the like, THAT is the type of county I hope to find myself in. Residential areas can get ugly.

Tazer
Nov. 8, 2007, 03:25 PM
I posted earlier about knowing Sandy and Len and being to their place numerous times and never seeing anything that would concern me.

When was the last time you visited the Kistner farm? And at which location?

CHS
Nov. 8, 2007, 08:01 PM
When was the last time you visited the Kistner farm? And at which location?

Oh brother. Am I on trial now? Heck I'll just drive right to the village square so you can burn me at the stake, or stone me if you prefer.

I will say I've been to multiple locations and it's been approximately a year since I've had any contact with them. I haven't seen or talked to either of them since moving to VA.

I am not the one who needs to be answering questions . It's the witch hunter crowd that needs to prove their case.

LOL

Grow up and find a "real" cause and make a "real" difference.

I'll say it one more time for the slow learners...

Rather than carrying on about this on a BB, GO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!

Tazer
Nov. 8, 2007, 08:56 PM
it's been approximately a year since I've had any contact with them. I haven't seen or talked to either of them since moving to VA.

Thank you for your reply. A little dramatic... but honest, which I appreciate.

With conflicting information being circulated in this thread, and you being the only one to say you've seen all of these horses, I thought it was important to know when you last saw them.
:)

Tamara in TN
Nov. 8, 2007, 09:05 PM
[QUOTE=CHS;2791257]Oh brother. Am I on trial now? Heck I'll just drive right to the village square so you can burn me at the stake, or stone me if you prefer.
QUOTE]

nuthing like the smell of burning hair and corn brooms on a brisk fall evening :)....except maybe warm tar and goose feathers :lol::lol::lol: besides, I threw my elbow out at the last stoning

Tamara in TN

CHS
Nov. 8, 2007, 10:44 PM
You've got two elbows don't you? Use the other arm. LOL

Tamara in TN
Nov. 9, 2007, 08:31 AM
You've got two elbows don't you? Use the other arm. LOL

ummm....the other hand holds the Cuervo ;)

Tamara in non multi-tasking TN

Tazer
Nov. 10, 2007, 01:59 PM
http://www.sandysmemorialfoalrescue.com/

About Us

We are a rescue group that takes in orphan and nurse mare foals. Nurse mare foals are a product of the racing and breeding industry. The foals mothers are taken away from them when a more expensive foal needs a mother. It is either due to the foal's mother rejecting it or the expensive mare has to go to the stud farm and the baby cannot go. The nurse mare is brought in to raise the expensive baby. The nurse mare foal is then either sold or left to fend for itself.

Sometimes they end up at the slaughter house. We are trying to save these wonderful babies. They can turn into great horses. They are beautiful and healthy.

Our foals came from a farm in New York. They were taken care of while there. They stayed with their mother's for at least a week. So they are very healthy. They are either Appaloosa, connamara, and thouroughbred. We have solids and colors. We have fillies and colts. We will let them go to their new homes once they are around 5 months old. New owners can come out and visit and play with their babies at our place until then.

Contact information:
Kim Stricklen
Culpeper, Virginia
(540) 937-7358
Mattnick66@comcast.net

Kinsella
Nov. 10, 2007, 10:43 PM
Emphasis mine:

http://www.sandysmemorialfoalrescue.com/

About Us

We are a rescue group that takes in orphan and nurse mare foals. Nurse mare foals are a product of the racing and breeding industry. The foals mothers are taken away from them when a more expensive foal needs a mother. It is either due to the foal's mother rejecting it or the expensive mare has to go to the stud farm and the baby cannot go. The nurse mare is brought in to raise the expensive baby. The nurse mare foal is then either sold or left to fend for itself.

Sometimes they end up at the slaughter house. We are trying to save these wonderful babies. They can turn into great horses. They are beautiful and healthy.

Our foals came from a farm in New York. They were taken care of while there. They stayed with their mother's for at least a week. So they are very healthy. They are either Appaloosa, connamara, and thouroughbred. We have solids and colors. We have fillies and colts. We will let them go to their new homes once they are around 5 months old. New owners can come out and visit and play with their babies at our place until then.

Contact information:
Kim Stricklen
Culpeper, Virginia
(540) 937-7358
Mattnick66@comcast.net

Okay, IF these foals come from Sandy's Nursemares (and if you read the page you would know that the rescue is named for a beloved HORSE, not where the foals came from) they are saying the opposite of what you are trying to argue. So what is your point - other than to discredit your own argument?

Daventry
Nov. 12, 2007, 03:46 PM
I started this to warn people that the SPCA can and will wreck your lives and the way you live....I have found out some things. Here in NY the SPCA has taken show horses from kids to breeding stock from breeders.

NOT if you have properly looked after your horses!! That's absolutely false that the SPCA would go in and seize a show horse out of a barn for no reason!

The SPCA has VERY SPECIFIC guidelines they have to follow in accessing animals that need to be seized or owners fined, etc. Any individual or disgruntled individual can lodge a complaint, but if the animals have been properly cared for and looked after and are not in any immediate danger, the SPCA, upon investigation, will drop the complaint and will not get involved any further. Sadly, a small few passionate animal owners can be "barn blind" and not see the poor care they may be providing for their animals, etc. due to financial strain or whatever issue may cause a lack of care.

I'm a breeder and have show horses as well and wouldn't be the least bit concerned if someone ever called the SPCA on me, for whatever reason....because all of my horses are provided with shelter, adequate food and water on a daily basis, they are dewormed and vaccinated every three months, feet trimmed every eight weeks and have their teeth floated once a year. They are all healthy, happy, free from pain and injury and slightly on the chubby side :)

If the SPCA has come out and investigated and felt it needed to take it one step further and seize horses, I think it's more than just a sunburned nose and a foal hernia! :no::no::no:

catknsn
Nov. 15, 2007, 01:03 PM
I'm a breeder and have show horses as well and wouldn't be the least bit concerned if someone ever called the SPCA on me, for whatever reason....because all of my horses are provided with shelter, adequate food and water on a daily basis, they are dewormed and vaccinated every three months, feet trimmed every eight weeks and have their teeth floated once a year. They are all healthy, happy, free from pain and injury and slightly on the chubby side :)

Amen. Anyone in authority who'd like to visit my horses and check on their well being is more than welcome to do so. I won't chase 'em with the tractor or anything!

JeanM
Nov. 15, 2007, 07:49 PM
Without weighing in on either side of this debate, since I don't know the situation first-hand... I thought that I could at least provide a humorous view of the problem of do-gooders who don't know horses:

Enjoy!
:D

YOUR HORSES ARE ON FIRE
© Baron Tayler
Published in ANVIL Magazine, August 1993

Much as I love shoeing horses, my business interests have led me to design, patent, and manufacture machinery for farmers who work with draft animals.

Since the farmers and teamsters who use my machine work with draft animals almost exclusively, I acquired a few Percherons. They're the kindest, gentlest, most easygoing creatures on earth, but owning them created a problem for me. I had only ten acres of pasture; that's a little more than three acres a horse - hardly enough to feed three 1800-pound horses year 'round without haying.

Luckily, a nearby farmer has a large pasture that he hasn't used since he retired. I moseyed over and asked if I could use the pasture for the Percherons during the winter when I'd run out of grass. You should have seen his cataract-clouded eyes light up! He told me he'd just turned 91 years old and had mourned the day he had sold his last team and converted to tractors. Yes, he said, he'd love to have the horses in his pasture.

October rolled around, and the horses finally ate the last stalk of grass in their field. I walked them down the road and let them into the large pasture which was knee deep in lush forage. They were in horsey heaven.

January arrived, and the horses had grown long, thick winter coats. The weather had been cold, but little in the way of snow. The field had a clump of trees in the middle and when it snowed, the horses snuggled up under a huge pine and slept.

With the first big snow came trouble. I was sitting at the breakfast table when the phone rang. It was a lady who lived in a house next to the pasture. She wanted to know if I owned the big horses. I told her that I did and asked her if there was something wrong. "The horses have no building to go into to get out of the snow," she said. I explained that they had the big trees to stand under, and that their dense coat was an excellent insulator. I assured her that the horses were quite comfortable. Semi-satisfied, she let me return to breakfast.

The following day the woman called back, and in a firm voice told me she was sure the horses were cold. I asked her how she knew this. "Because they look cold," she replied. "And, in what way do they look cold?" I countered. Silence. Not a word for 30 seconds. Finally, she said, "I just know they're cold!" "Okay, okay," I replied, "Why don't you meet me in the pasture in five minutes and, if the horses are cold, I'll take them into a barn." She agreed.

We met five minutes later. "Will they hurt me?" she asked. "Do they kick or bite?" It started to dawn on me that this woman was a busybody do-gooder who knew absolutely nothing about horses. With time on her hands, she probably decided that my horses needed rescuing and appointed herself their savior.

As soon as we entered the pasture, the horses trotted over looking for attention ? three 1800-pound "puppy dogs." After she watched me pet them for a few minutes, I asked her if they looked cold. "Well, no," she replied, "But it's hard to tell with all the hair." "Why don't you put your hand on one and see if it feels cold to the touch?" I asked. It was obvious she had never touched a horse before. Hesitantly, she reached out and touched one. "Well," she said, "I have to admit that they do feel warm, but I still wish they had a barn to go into."

Just then one of the horses dropped a big, steaming pile of manure on the snow. She stood looking at it, quite puzzled. "What's wrong?" I asked. No reply at first. Then she said, "Why isn't the horse standing in the pile?" "Why would he do that?" I asked. "Because it would keep his feet warm," she replied. That snapped it! I was trying to talk logically with a certified nut case! I left her standing in the field.

The snow melted a few days later, and I heard nothing more. Then another storm hit that promised to be a keeper. With the temperature staying well below freezing, I knew the snow wouldn't melt for a while, which meant I had to start feeding bales of hay until the snow was gone. Since my daytime schedule was hectic, I found it easier to feed at night, usually around midnight. Two days after the snow had stopped falling, the old farmer called me. He said the woman was bothering him again, claiming the horses were not being fed. I assured him they were and told him of my nightly ritual.

The local animal protection society called the next day, explaining they received a report that I was starving my horses. I invited one of their inspectors to come out and see for himself. When the inspector arrived, I showed him the hay scattered over the field and explained my feeding schedule. I told him about the woman who believed horses should stand in their manure. I asked him to confirm my nightly feedings with a neighbor who had seen me feeding the horses. He did and was satisfied that the woman was, in his own words, a "Looney Tune."

A few weeks went by and along came another dusting of snow. The temperature hovered just around freezing, the snow melting as it hit the ground. The local animal control officer called. He was laughing so hard it was difficult to understand him. "Could I come over?" he asked.

Fifteen minutes later he arrived, still laughing. His face was as red as a beet! I thought he was going to have a coronary on the spot. Finally, calmed down to a mild chuckle, he told me that a woman had reported my horses were on fire!

The officer apologized for the inconvenience of his visit, but it was office policy to investigate each complaint. I was too busy laughing to even notice. Regaining control of myself, I climbed into the officer's truck, and off we went to check on my "roasting" horses. When we arrived at the field, the sun was just starting to break through the clouds. Three gorgeous Percherons were standing there, contentedly munching on grass. Thick columns of steam rose off them as evaporated moisture in their coats condensed in the cold air. The officer and I were awed by the beauty of it, but soon the spell was broken. We both started chuckling again, almost rolling on the ground. "Your horses are on fire!" the officer roared.

I never heard from the animal control people again. However, the woman continued pestering the old farmer with a myriad of oddball complaints. I felt so sorry for him that I took the horses back to my place a month before I'd planned to. The farmer was sad to see them go. He still enjoys telling the story about those horses that were on fire.

Author's comment: This story is humorous, but it also portrays a serious and growing problem.

Tazer
Nov. 16, 2007, 01:27 PM
Maybe you can repost this in a thread of it's own and open some doors to help educate people. Just a thought...

Tiki
Nov. 16, 2007, 02:33 PM
I hardly think that most of the people on this board, essentially all of whom are experience breeders or riders, have already been through this. I hardly think WE are the ones who need this kind of education!

siegi b.
Nov. 16, 2007, 06:54 PM
I agree with Tiki on this....

The statement "Author's comment: This story is humorous, but it also portrays a serious and growing problem." is not based on reality.

Sure, there will always be some folks that can't just mind their own business, but to call it a "serious and growing problem" is a tad dramatic.

Fairview Horse Center
Nov. 16, 2007, 07:50 PM
I think the problem would be more in suburbs, where Animal Control is more cat/dog trained, and does not understand livestock.

Gnalli
Nov. 19, 2007, 03:52 PM
I think the problem would be more in suburbs, where Animal Control is more cat/dog trained, and does not understand livestock.

You are most probably right. There was a complaint at a boarding facility/saddle club in MS a couple years back (made by residents of the new subdivision backed up to the grounds) and the county sent a vet out there. This VET was shocked that there was not grain available all the time to the horses, that they should ALWAYS have access to food:confused::mad:. Guess she didn't realize the hay in the stall was food. This was a VET-she should have known better, but she was a small animal vet, and didn't have a clue about horses.