Jumping Driving Horses?

[KellyS]

Long time, no see!

Hope you all are doing well...Aaron and I have been quite busy this fall, settling into our new place and getting the PhD (pony, horse, donkey) moved home. :)

Anyway, have a question to throw out...what are your thoughts on jumping driving horses/ponies? Do you ever worry about a driving equine thinking about jumping with a carriage since they've learned to jump under saddle?

I think there are quite a few horses that cross over and many that had a riding/jumping career before crossing over into driving. I'm asking because I'm regularly riding Merlin now and also jumping him (which he LOVES and is super fabulous at!) and I've been surprised that some people think he should not learn how to jump (not driving people though).

Curious on your thoughts. Merlin already knew how to jump when we got him (free jump), but he's never offered to do it with a carriage. However, since I've been schooling him in dressage and also doing jumping exercises, he's really learning how to carry himself and his topline looks great. We went cross schooling last week and he was a super star; I told Aaron that we'll have to compare calendars next year because I'd like to do some starter trials with him. :yes:

I don't have any pics of us jumping yet, but here are some from August (and one thrown in of our super cute mini donk Buster):

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2113389690055731734SQMjAk

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2151507040055731734EFaVpK

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2174589220055731734oSNwxQ

[pricestory]

I worked for a while with a riding/dressage/jumping trainer who felt it was very important in building topline for the horse to jump. My rider for Poppins jumped her on a regular basis, not big jumps but jumps. She loved it. My friend Dale, who drives her pony at Advanced, also has her rider jump her pony and he is competing in his first real HT in Dec.
The only thing Poppy has ever offered to jump is puddles in the road.
ps, Kelly. I have a mini donk named Buster (along with 3 mini jennies) also but mine is grey dun. Your's is very cute.

[pattnic]

My mare's two strongest areas are jumping and driving - while she is good at many things, these are the two areas in which she is best. So I personally really don't see a problem with jumping a driving horse. She has never tried to jump anything while in harness... she really does know the difference between her jobs.

[Bravestrom]

we have 4 commercial horses - clyde hackney crosses - all of them jump, three of them event, jump and show dressage - all are trained to drive, two are champions but we do not drive them.

They are fantastic horses, incredible jumpers and beautiful to boot.

One of them jumped through a 4 foot high opening that is 4 x 4 from a standstill - quite a feet for a 16.1 hh 1400 lb horse.

[Ashemont]

Well we've stopped jumping Phoenix after he tried to leap over a firebreak with his carriage. He's quite a talented jumper but defintely loves being a driving horse so we just work with him having all feet grounded ;)

[kearleydk]

My experience (somewhat limited) is that individual horses have their own preferences as to whether to jump or not. We play with all the Caspians at free jumping. All but Triumph jump quite well and seem to enjoy it. Triumph walks up to every barrier and pushes it over with his chest. It has taken some training to get him to free jump.

Kiyan is at the other end of the spectrum. He jumps everything, whether it needs to be jumped or not. He carries this with him into driving. Every stick, puddle, or mark in the trail is a reason to jump in his opinion.

My overall conclusion is that I don't think jumping the horse will cause it to jump in harness if it does not already jump in harness.

Buy strong harness.

[goodhors]

I would agree with GTD, in not presenting the driven horse with a situation where jumping is an option. An athletic horse will see a jump place as an easier way to get somewhere. Jump so you don't have to slow down! Saves steps down into ditches! Our colts and horses will run from field to the gate straight, on shortest route. If that means the big log (30") jump is in the way, they just pop over, keep coming. Can be pretty to watch if they are in line, jump one after another, ducks in a row!

We had a very small ditch on course, during a marathon. We were traveling fairly quickly, didn't slow down. The Pair were in stride, jumped in stride, kept going. Quite surprised us, got air time and everything! Nothing damaged, we kept going. Safety strap on driver came in handy, because landing was HARD. Shook us all up.

Our NEW resolution was to SLOW down for those type of obstructions, even though very small. A couple short strides, we're thru with all hooves on the ground, then back to normal pace. Don't present a horse with chance to jump by going at speed, and they usually won't.

Note these rough places when doing course walks, plan to adjust for that spot. We do now! We had seen the little ditch, REALLY not paid any special attention to ditch on our walk. We are DRIVING, will just roll thru! That Pair had lived in rough country as ranch horses, probably popped over a lot of ditches. Always wished we had a picture of that jump.

There is sometimes a photo in the Driving magazines, of an elegant turnout where horse/s decided to jump for some reason. One of the coolest was a Pair in the air. They leaped a railroad track, perfectly matched, with top hatted driver giving them a rein release. It was just the presentation of the obstacle, horses took the opportunity to jump. Normally quiet, unflappable Pair, just light on their hooves that day! Not used for jumping at all.

[Ashemont]

Well even Maggie Mae surprised me with her first jump this past weekend... and I've never jumped her at all nor had her offer to jump so it was totally unexpected. We were out on marathon and there was a small washout - the kind we've gone through hundreds of times - but this time there was a bit of a puddle, too, and she just hopped over. Made just the tiniest bounce in the carriage. She just kept going but you can be sure I'll be a bit more careful in the future! I always am with Phoenix because I KNOW he LOVES to jump if given the opportunity :winkgrin:

And Dick I sure can believe Kiyan would be the one to jump everything. Naughty boy! :)

[Thomas_1]

Long time, no see!

Hope you all are doing well...Aaron and I have been quite busy this fall, settling into our new place and getting the PhD (pony, horse, donkey) moved home. :) Good luck in your new home

Anyway, have a question to throw out...what are your thoughts on jumping driving horses/ponies? Every driving horse and pony I own is a ride and drive and all of them, with the exception of the shitlands, jump. And my old fei singles driving horse was also a *** Eventer and currently I've got them successfull competing in hunter trials and eventing as well as driving.

Do you ever worry about a driving equine thinking about jumping with a carriage since they've learned to jump under saddle? No ....... but I've had a horse do that before though :eek: Posted the photo here too!

Curious on your thoughts. Merlin already knew how to jump when we got him (free jump), but he's never offered to do it with a carriage. Generally they're not that stupid but got to say I've had them that are keen to jump and I'll post you that photo ;) here when I can find it! Mine know that driving harness means no jumping!

[War Admiral]

I guess I'm going to be the paranoid, safety-conscious dissenter here. :D If it's a serious driving horse, I don't jump it.

HRH Avery was a jumper - did the High A/Os. When I started him for driving, my absolute top priority was that this horse understand he needed to forget there ever WAS such a thing as jumping. He being a TB and green to driving, I honestly feared that if greenness and/or pilot error did get a bolt happening, he would do what comes naturally (to him anyway - this horse LOFFS to jump and in his younger days would jump in/out of the pasture just for fun).

We spent a lot of time during the groundwork phase - many months - on arena hazards, intentionally made out of jump standards and other stuff he was familiar with. I wanted to reinforce the concept of "Nowadays we go THROUGH these things, not OVER them".

He has long since proven his ability to grasp this distinction in every way - but he's a VERY bright horse, and quite honestly I can think of more horses I would not choose to jump after they are harness trained than ones I would.

That said, even the most thorough deprogramming of an ex-jumper isn't really gonna STOP an ex-jumper from jumping if it feels the need. It might lessen the tendency a bit, that's all. At best it might give you 2 extra seconds while the horse is trying to decide whether to listen to the whip or jump. That 2 seconds might save your life.

[Dalriada]

My Working Hunter Burni was broke to drive as a 2 year old and wasn't broke to ride until 4. For many years he showed/competed in pleasure and combined driving and falt ring classes under saddle. He didn't start jumping until 10 years of age.

The biggest problem was getting him to jump stiles (the narrow fences) as he said the buggy wouldn't fit. It took ages for him to realize there was a difference between driving and riding.

His grandsire had driven his entire life and only started jumping at age 7. His biggest problem was walking through water jumps - you don't trot through a puddle splashing the lady driver or passenger. This horse was fabulous at taking novice combined drivers out on course - never had to worry that he might jump rather than drive properly.

Now we've always used a slight squeeze one the belly as the command to jump, so the horses knew that no squeeze meant jog or lope over for Trail classes, no leg contact at all - must be driving, and a squeeze means jump NOW!

[War Admiral]

Dalriada, what fascinating experiences of doing it "the other way around"! :) Thanks so much for sharing. Much food for thought here and stuff for me to remember for future reference!

For your amusement, I had (as you might expect) the opposite problem teaching HRH Avery to ground drive across a blue tarp. We walked toward it; what would have been about 2 canter strides out, he turned and shot me this incredulous "Are you outta your MIND?!!" look, sat down on his haunches, gathered himself, annnnnd - the old WA *finally* had the "Oh sh*t, that's how they teach 'em to jump Liverpools!!" moment! :lol:

It ended well. I just said "Whoa, Avery, noooo, buddy, that's not *quite* what I had in mind." He gave me that arch TB look - "Well, I didn't think even YOU were that stupid. Care to 'splain?" I 'splained and everything was fine. :D

[LostFarmer]

My neighbor had been after me to let her try my little mare jumping. Cricket is not over gifted but a nice little pony. Well Cricket LOVES to jump. She is green on the flat work but she LOVED to jump and as she was 11 years old and fit we saw no reason not to let her jump. She is 13.2 and was clearing 3'6" fences like they were nothing. The problem is then she wanted to jump in harness. We were humming down the road and made a left turn over the yellow line and she went airborn. Not a little but a huge jump. That set her up for the man hole followed by the pot hole. She put a very nice combination together. :yes: The lost children were impressed, her team mate less so. :no: That ended the jumping experience for Cricket. She just likes it a little too much. LF

[War Admiral]

Shoot, LF, stop driving her and let her jump... She could pay off your mortgage!! :eek::D

[Thomas_1]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/Driving/disasterwithahurdle0010.jpg:eek::winkgrin:

[Renae]

There are show classes in which you may drive and jump the horse in the same class. In a Combination Hunter class you show the horse as a single horse in harness, then unhitch and saddle it and do basically a hunter hack class under saddle. In a Sporting Tandem the horse you are going to ride comes in as the lead horse of the tandem, already wearing a saddle and bridle and outfitted with a breastcollar as well so it can assist in pulling the cart a bit, it is then unhitch and ridden and may be asked to jump.

[Thomas_1]

Also remember that driving tandem was always the traditional way to get your hunter to the hunt.

[Reynard Ridge]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/Driving/disasterwithahurdle0010.jpg:eek::winkgrin:

What I think is so fascinating about that photo is that then entire group (humans and equines alike) look so unflustered.

Good luck with Merlin, Kelly! I am sure you and Aaron can manage the competition schedule. :yes:

[KellyS]

Thanks all for the input! You've pretty much backed up what I was thinking--that Merlin would be able to tell his 2 jobs apart and that they would complement each other nicely, especially in terms of conditioning. :)

Thomas, that was the exact picture I was thinking of when I posted this thread! Maybe that's the good thing about driving a pony--he would look at that brush fence and say, "Horses actually jump something like THAT?!" :D

Took Merlin on his first official trailride in company yesterday and he had a blast. He was the smallest of the three, but outwalked the TB and Halflinger we were out with. Was also the lead over the water crossings and past the sheep in one field. He is great to trot/canter with others because he paces himself with the group. However, I did get yelled at for galloping instead of cantering in one field. We were at the front and were having such fun. Didn't realize we left our cohorts in the dust. We're relegated to the back next time. :lol:

Perhaps hunting is in Merlin's future as well?! :winkgrin:

[Thomas_1]

What I think is so fascinating about that photo is that then entire group (humans and equines alike) look so unflustered.
I've never been one to panic or make a drama out of a crisis! :winkgrin:

And I guess my staff and horses are used to me and hence also in that ilk

[Happy Feet]

OMG. I just saw Thomas's picture. I had to just laugh. I had the same though, you all look so CALM! Like oh well. We'll just wait till we can keep going. How the heck did you get outta that thing? It looks like the person is trying topull the the jump from underneath the horse, but that jump doesn't look like the pvc fences!!!! Did that horse keep jumping or did he realize the trouble he got into?
That photo is just too funny. I love it.

[Thomas_1]

The horse couldn't keep jumping. He had a horse behind him and one alongside him!

One of the advantage of driving "multiples" is that you can use the others as an anchor. Its why I'm of the strong opinion that when doing commercial work such as weddings or film work that its better with a pair and never a single horse. It means that when the unexpected or bizarre happens that scares the pants of one horse you can use one horse to anchor the other.

So when the miscreant jumped the fence the others anchored him back and stopped him dead which reinforced my commands and brought about a much quicker halt than I could ever do.

It was a solid wood hurdle and it was dismantled to get him off it! Needless to say we were eliminated for setting the grooms down!!!! (and wrecking the course :winkgrin:)

[Happy Feet]

No, not keep jumping that fence ! - but did he ever try jumping something while in harness at a later time or was that scene unpleasant enough for him?

I saved that photo on my desktop, I just can't believe everyone is so uneffected!!!

[Thomas_1]

No he didn't. That was the first and last time he tried that trick!

[RU2U]

Thomas - I like how everyone is non-flustered but the guy next to him is just a wee bit embarrassed of his buddy, Like "Homer did it again!"

The original photo is an awesome shot! It just goes to show how much fun driving can be and even the horses have a bit of fun too!

[RMJacobs]

It's nice to know that I'm not the only person to have a horse jump in harness. A couple of years ago, I was trying to train my Hackney pony, Crackers, to walk through a puddle if I asked him to, instead of skittering around it to avoid the monsters lurking therein. Of course, if he encounted a puddle in his pasture, he would slog right through it, but heaven forbid he do it under harness.

I found a good shallow puddle after a rain, and made several attempts to get him to walk through it. We circled endlessly. He finally seemed to accept the concept, and was going right for it, and jumped the darned thing. It was embarrassing as of course one of my neighbors witnessed it.

I eventually got him to go through puddles, but never forgot that day.

Rebecca

[exie4me]

:ohorses definitely don't need a jumping background to jump in harness. I was driving at a brisk trot across a pasture when my mare spotted a recently dug groundhog hole in her path (I couldn't see it). I don't know if it was the abrupt stop or the resulting takeoff that landed me on the dash and floor but, I think she thought she was jumping the grand canyon but, continued trotting like nothing happened as I tried to regain my composure.: