trivia/history - braids?

[Hilary]

When I was a kid in PC we had to learn a lot about hunting, and one of the things in the back of my head is that mares had either an odd or even number of braids, and horses had the other - and braids were numbered like 8 & 9 - none of this 40 braids per mane nonsense we do in the show world.

but which is it? Do mares have 8 and horses have 9? - see, I'm using my ancient pony club knowledge that the word horse is to be used for male equines over the age of 4 (or 5, depending on what ancient book you read) and mare is for the females.

Or is it 9 for girls and 8 for the boys?

I ask because I did a hunter trials a couple of weeks ago and my mare's mane is long and shaggy and perfect for making 9 giant "old style hunter" braids. I wanted to really get it right, but couldn't remember whether she was even or odd.

[Tantivy1]

Odd for geldings, even for mares....BUT

Anybody know, does that include the forelock? I am guessing not.

[Seven]

I can't remember which is which either :winkgrin: but I was taught the numbers were 12 and 13? And does that include the forelock?

Of course I was also taught it was bad luck to count your braids, so I never really know how many I have. :p

[Painted Wings]

I remember 13 for geldings and 12 for mares, not counting the forelock. I usually do 13 on my geldings, haven't braided a mare in ages.

[SteeleRdr]

I have always been told as PW stated.

13 for geldings, 12 for mares...NOT including the forelock.

That's the way I've always done it and won several BTO's with the method. Actually was a contributing factor to a tie breaker. The little mare in the picture in my profile has 12 in her mane (not including her forelock).

[Equibrit]

BHS and PC rules for plaiting hunters; an uneven number down the neck plus the forelock to make it an even number. Minimum number being six. Braiding is the term used for heavy horse manes and is generally done with raffia and ribbons or flights. http://www.edp24.co.uk/Content/HiddenNorfolk/Img/2004/03/040306Braid.jpg

[flea]

Anyone know why different # of braids for different sex? Or why braids were invented at all?

[Seven]

Braids are functional - keep the mane from getting tangles in fingers, reins, branches.

[horseandhound]

Braids are functional - keep the mane from getting tangles in fingers, reins, branches.

As a Pony Club Of Great Britain member (eons ago) we were taught to braid an odd number irrespective of sex. The forelock braid was added in after to make it an even number.
Maybe I missed class when they were determing the numbers for mares and geldings!!

[Equibrit]

The odd even thing is probably just an American thing and has no basis in traditional turnout.

[Rt66Kix]

We plait to remind us how our old fingers get stiff in the AM's trying to fix a damp mane into something presentable. We braid draft horse manes to remind us how powerful they are; that one flip of the head can send us flying off the braiding bench.

Don't ask how I know...I've done both and it's not my favorite horse thing! You'd think I'd like it being a professional hairdresser...NOT.

I had 17 plaits in Buddy's mane for Opening Hunt. The base of each plait was about 1.5" wide; no wonder I ran late! His forelock is so scraggly that I couldn't do anything with it. Any ideas?

[Seven]

The odd even thing is probably just an American thing and has no basis in traditional turnout.

While it may be just an American thing, it still may be traditional to us. America's been around for just a bit now and doing our own thing, so it's okay if we have some traditions too. Especially considering how not everyone from here arrived from one place and might have added some different ideas into the mix.

[J Swan]

There's an easier way to determine if a horse is male or female than by counting how many braids it sports on its mane. ;)

[Last Shot]

My understanding of braiding for hunters was to give the illusion of a topline, whereas in dressage, it was to show off the topline(hence, the difference in how the braids sit?) This might be a dated reasoning though.

[Hilary]

Thank you!

I figured someone would remember -

Next time we go out I will put in 12 braids (and I braid her forelock because she's got such a darn cute face!).

I do miss the mane to grab when she takes a big fence, but it can get tangled - and I'd think a lot moreso if you had a whip.

Since I usually event, doing the hunter trials in my coat, not my XC vest was strange, but it looked good!

[SteeleRdr]

I'm trying to find the reference for which the numbers I cited came from.

I just know this is what I was told by the lady I ride for who has been hunting for quite a number of years. I won't say how many because she'd kill me. But let's just say she's been hunting for much longer than I've been alive and I'm 24.

No offense to any PC rules or anything, but there are several that would NOT apply to foxhunting so...I don't know. I'm going to have to do more digging when I'm at the barn this weekend to find the turn out reference.

[SteeleRdr]

Oh, and another note- Regarding really sparse forelocks. I have found that with really thin forelocks, that I immediately start braiding in the yarn at the top so that I have more to hold and braid. Usually I do a french braid in the forelock, but when they are thin, I just braid them normally, and do my usual tie up.

Last year for Opening, we braided 5. We had a great system going. The lady I ride for has carpal tunnels and arthritis in her hands, so it's hard to do a lot of braiding without her hands cramping (especially in the cold). Anyways, so I braided (the worse of the evils of braiding/plaiting, whatever), and then she pulled through and tied them all. We finished all 5 horses in under 2 hours (and I'm super picky when it comes to braiding for opening!). She also makes me do the forelocks.

I won't be riding for Opening this weekend, but I will hopefully try to go help and braid my horse who is going for his first Opening. He's never been braided, so hopefully he behaves himself!

[Equibrit]

While it may be just an American thing, it still may be traditional to us. America's been around for just a bit now and doing our own thing, so it's okay if we have some traditions too. Especially considering how not everyone from here arrived from one place and might have added some different ideas into the mix.


However Fox Hunting of the kind now enjoyed here did come from only one place. To qualify as a tradition, the method would have to have been carried out as the original without change for several generations. But you're "doing your own thing"! I'm not sure about the habit of taking somebody else's traditions, changing them, and then claiming them as your own. Smells a lot like plagiarism to me!

[Hilary]

We learned plenty of things in pony club that had nothing to to with foxhunting, but it was part of the "curriculum", if you will, to create well-rounded horsemen, and a lot of the tradition (since PC was started in Britain) had foxhunting roots.


I actually did pretty well on your trivia quiz due to my PC book work.

The 'bible' was "Riding to Hounds in America". We pretty much had to memorize it.

And tie stock ties - none of the pre-tied things.

We did actually go hunting several times as well- there was a good relationship between the pony club and the local hunt.

[Romany]

Didn't you know that imitation is always the sincerest form of flattery, Equibrit?

[AdAblurr02]

This is great stuff..
NOW, the question I've been wanting to ask - which side of the neck? Someplace along the line I was "told" that the off side (right hand side) of the neck was "correct". Nowadays, I'm seeing superb plaiting on either side - both hunters and dressage horses.

Is there (or was there ever) a "correct " side to braid (or Plait) on?

Oh, and what about leaving the gorgeous studly foretop unfettered on a braided stallion?

[SteeleRdr]

Again, this is just how I have always been taught...but...I was alway taught to braid on the right (off side) of the horse. I believe I was told why eons ago, but I can't seem to recall.

As for the stallion forelock question, I have NO clue about any rule regarding it being "unfettered."

[Seven]

Plagiarism? Not quite.

And while our traditions do borrow many features of the British version (particulary the dress which is virtually identical but not in many other notable respects), one could hardly claim that it is practiced solely as the British version. I'm sure the influences on American fox hunters from Australia, Canada, France, India, the Republic of Ireland, Italy, New Zealand, and Russia might feel differently. After practicing it for 357 years, some elements are distinctly American.

Doesn't the braiding on the right tradition go back to typical sword position (left)?

[Hilary]

I know that western horses have left manes so they won't interfere with the rope - given that most people are right-handed.

We mount from the left side b/c our swords used to hang off the left hip (so we could draw with our right hand) and it's hard to swing the sword over the horse.

I don't know what left handed cowboys and knights used to do....

The mane on the right side doesn't really make sense for the sword-yielding b/c even though you would carry your sword on the left, you still use your right hand to hold it.

[Equibrit]

Plagiarism? Not quite.

And while our traditions do borrow many features of the British version (particulary the dress which is virtually identical but not in many other notable respects), one could hardly claim that it is practiced solely as the British version. I'm sure the influences on American fox hunters from Australia, Canada, France, India, the Republic of Ireland, Italy, New Zealand, and Russia might feel differently. After practicing it for 357 years, some elements are distinctly American.

Doesn't the braiding on the right tradition go back to typical sword position (left)?

Would you mind expounding on this theory?

[Seven]

Would you mind expounding on this theory?

What theory? The sword statement? If that, then it is as Hilary described. I was thinking that perhaps keeping the mane braided on the right kept it from interfering with the reach over to the left to draw the sword. Hilary could be just as correct though....and since I have dyslexia and routinely fail at distinguishing right and left, I mount from which ever side is handy at the moment and roach my horse's mane. :winkgrin:

[Equibrit]

And while our traditions do borrow many features of the British version (particulary the dress which is virtually identical but not in many other notable respects), one could hardly claim that it is practiced solely as the British version. I'm sure the influences on American fox hunters from Australia, Canada, France, India, the Republic of Ireland, Italy, New Zealand, and Russia might feel differently. After practicing it for 357 years, some elements are distinctly American.


No - the one above.

" Doesn't the braiding on the right tradition go back to typical sword position (left)?"
That was a question.

[Seven]

No - the one above.



Okay - you'll have to type slowly for me because I'm not getting your question. :winkgrin: What I typed above the sword question are facts, not personal theories.

[Equibrit]

Okay - you'll have to type slowly for me because I'm not getting your question. :winkgrin: What I typed above the sword question are facts, not personal theories.

Prove it!

[Seven]

Again, prove what?? Which part? Really, nothing there is that complicated.

Now I'm starting to think I'm the one that needs to type slowly...

(PS - I'm off to take my 2 year old trick or treating :D so we'll have to take this up another time). Happy Halloween!

[Equibrit]

Enlighten me as to these "facts" you mentioned.
I'd love to know more.
What are the influences from Australia, Canada, France, India, the Republic of Ireland, Italy, New Zealand, and Russia ?
Surely, if it's not that complicated, you should have no problem!

[Beverley]

However Fox Hunting of the kind now enjoyed here did come from only one place. To qualify as a tradition, the method would have to have been carried out as the original without change for several generations. But you're "doing your own thing"! I'm not sure about the habit of taking somebody else's traditions, changing them, and then claiming them as your own. Smells a lot like plagiarism to me!


Well, now, surely you know that the fine 'British' traditions including much of the hunting language are Norman in origin...courtesy of Gillaume...:cool:

[Equibrit]

Most of British history/language has been tangled up with the French in one way or another (it seems that if we weren't kicking their asses we were saving them!), but I would like further enlightenment on such a wide ranging statement of "facts".

[Beverley]

Most of British history/language has been tangled up with the French in one way or another (it seems that if we weren't kicking their asses we were saving them!), but I would like further enlightenment on such a wide ranging statement of "facts".

Then I would recommend to you Roger Longrigg's 'The History of Foxhunting.' The author is British so may perhaps have more credibility.:winkgrin:

Two quick examples:

Since French became the language of the courts after 1066, it also became the language of hunting, hence terms such as 'leu in' and 'tally ho' are corruptions of Norman/French.

Hounds- fundamentally descend from French hounds.

Now, you could argue the hunting of fox was made respectable in Britain; prior to the 18th century it was typically considered to be a low form of sport in comparison to stag hunting but did eventually catch on.

Back to the braiding and mane-on-which-side. I know of no reason for the 'tradition' of mane on the right. I've always just braided my horses' manes on the side they grow on. In the current inventory, the 'western' horse's mane falls naturally on the right, the warmblood, on the left.

I too learned the folklore of odd for geldings, even for mares, and I have always given myself the liberty to count the forelock, or not. Because I just braid madly away (sorry, that's the term I am accustomed to!) typically ending with 13ish to 15ish. If I've got an even number on my gelding's neck, sorry, not gonna redo. I'll just count the forelock if anybody asks.:)

So far using the above approach, neither lightning nor fashion police have struck me down.

[goodhors]

My teaching was to always have the mane on the right side of neck, Western horse or English horse, Driving horse, all disciplines. Tradition was developed from the Military system, training of mounted men, requirements of keeping troops of horses so they are alike.

Soldiers are supposed to all be alike. Systems are developed to create uniformity in methods of doing everything. They mount from the left side to avoid tangling leg in sword hung on left hip. Mounting from the left means left hand on neck, holding reins, while right hand adjusts stirrup for foot. Mane on left side will be a problem in tangling hands and reins during mounting. Tangles mean soldier can lose control of animal while unsteady in mounting.

These soldiers were trained in doing things alike, by men trained the same way. Habits, training of years went with these ex-soldiers when they left the military. Kept grooming manes onto right side of neck so they didn't tangle with reins in mounting. Kept mounting on left side of horse. Trained their children in the same methods.

In the early West, up to the 1960's, many horse manes were kept roached off, hogged necks for Eastern folks. No mane made roping, rein tangling impossible. Most Western horses had fairly short tails, cut off or pulled so they didn't get tangled in things. Check out some old photos. Short manes and tails also kept chances of lice down. One lousy horse could easily spread lice thru the herd. This roaching was also seen in the Western Calvary units, no manes at all. Sure reduced care time in grooming of horses too.

After the 1960's, Western Halter horses, show horses, got more popular, were traveling in trailers to more shows, rodeos. A couple winners had manes, so the style was copied, got more common. With horses often doing multiple jobs, short manes were trained right again, to keep it out of the way when mounting. Old Horse Care Books I read, said to train the mane right, so this was the accepted practice, wide spread and promoted.

Traditionally, driven carriage horses were never braided in daily use, neither manes nor tails. Modern CDE Competition drivers braid manes, but it is a modern choice. Neither required or encouraged. Looks nice, same reason other English disciplines braid their animals. Drafts do braid for their competitions, emphasizes the heavy, muscular neck, power of horse.

Can you do some of the more obscure braids, Hackney braids, Cleveland Bay braids? Used only on these breeds, though they are attractive styles.

[promlightshine]

I would love to see examples of braiding/plaiting the longer manes. My horses are on 24/7 turnout and thus I hate to have a mane supershort in the winter. Irrational I know since one side of the neck must get cold.

One of my horses is very "saddleseat" and the longer mane fits how he moves. I have braided him in a long running french braid down the crest but am not sure if I did it right.

Sites of interest??

Thanks!

[Equibrit]

I would appreciate enlightenment on the influences from Australia, Canada, India, Italy, New Zealand, and Russia. I'm sure you could debate the involvement of France until the cows come home. The two countries were linked for a long time and you'd have a hard time sorting out who influenced whom.

But - just for grins;
French Military History in a Nutshell (American version)
Gallic Wars: Lost. In a war whose ending foreshadows the next 2000 years of French history, France is conquered by of all things, an Italian.
Hundred Years War: Mostly lost, saved at last by a female schizophrenic who inadvertently creates The First Rule of French Warfare - "France's armies are victorious only when not led by a Frenchmen."
Italian Wars: Lost. France becomes the first and only country ever to lose two wars when fighting Italians.
Wars of Religion: France goes 0-5-4 against the Huguenots.
Thirty Years' War: France is technically not a participant, but manages to get invaded anyway. Claims a tie on the basis that eventually the other participants started ignoring her.
War of Devolution: Tied; Frenchmen take to wearing red flowerpots as chapeaux.
The Dutch War: Tied.
War of the Augsburg League/King William's War/French and Indian War: Lost, but claimed as a tie. Deluded Frogophiles the world over label the period as the height of French Military Power.
War of the Spanish Succession: Lost. The War also gave the French their first taste of a Marlborough, which they have loved ever since.
American Revolution: In a move that will become quite familiar to future Americans, France claims a win even though the English colonists saw far more action. This is later known as "de Gaulle Syndrome", and leads to the Second Rule of French Warfare: "France only wins when America does most of the fighting".
French Revolution: Won, primarily due to the fact that the opponent was also French.
The Napoleonic Wars: Lost. Temporary victories (remember the First Rule!) due to leadership of a Corsican, who ended up being no match for a British footwear designer.
The Franco-Prussian War: Lost. Germany first plays the role of drunk Frat boy to France's ugly girl home alone on a Saturday night.
WWI: Tied and on the way to losing, France is saved by the United States. Thousands of French women find out what it's like not only to sleep with a winner, but one who doesn't call her "Fraulein." Sadly, widespread use of condoms by American forces forestalls any improvement in the French bloodline.
WWII: Lost. Conquered French liberated by the United States and Britain just as they finish learning the Horst Wessel Song.
War in Indochina: Lost. French forces plead sickness, take to bed with Dien Bien Flu.
Algerian Rebellion: Lost. Loss marks the first defeat of a Western army by a Non-Turkic Muslim force since the Crusades, and produces the First Rule of Muslim Warfare -"We can always beat the French." This rule is identical to the First Rules of the Italians, Russians, Germans, English, Dutch, Spanish, Vietnamese, and Eskimos.
War on Terrorism: France, keeping in mind its recent history, surrenders to Germans and Muslims just to be safe.

[wateryglen]

Equibrit! Take a deep breath!! Calm down!! Smile!!!
I'm gonna take a stab at your inquiry! Done tongue-in-cheek!! :winkgrin:

Influences to foxhunting from the following foreign countries:

From Australia? = Pretty good wines lately for tailgates - I'm thinkin' their whites are whonderful! :D

From Canada? - well can ANYONE not deny their weather influences our US sport?!! Those Alberta Clippers come sailing over the US regularly in the winter! These artic cold fronts drop down into say...Illinois? and bugger up the footing? I like to blame Canada for our BAD weather!! :cool:
And those wonder PMU's we're all hunting these days! Love them!

From India? - polo wraps for transporting our precious hunters in the trailer to avoid boo-boos? (hard to finda polo relationship but I'm trying!)
Oh! How about cheap leather tack to hunt in on muddy days? Yeah that's it!!!

From Italy? - round here those Italian Leather boots are hot, expensive and sought after.....altho' I've always suspected it's American hides sent there.....;)

From New Zealand? - kiwi? for fruit platters? for tailgates/breakfasts?! As a place for US foxhunters to go in off season, hunt, write about it and make us all hunting envious in the heat of June?!!! Oh and to tell us about jumping wire and how to do it properly?!!

From Russia! - For caviar of course! For tailgates/breakfasts!! For Vodka in our mimosas?!! For Centennial Award winning foxhunters!! (Yea! Spitnik!) :winkgrin::lol: Isn't he a Russian Warmblood!??!! :yes:

From Ireland?! - too numerous to list!! #1-the worlds handsomest huntsmen!! :D Irish horses for us to ride and lust after!! And accent that is sometimes hard to understand but a joie de vivre we could all live by!

And our final influences? Most of our horse breeds are "foreign" bred at some point back yonder! Ditto our hounds! And ourselves! All immigrant legacies! Wooooohoooo! Ain't we the lucky ones!
(Wateryglen sports Irish/French/Canadian blood very recently in her past.
THAT explains my wine-lovin' joie-de-vivre love of cold weather and half draft canadian imports!) hmmmmmm....

There now, Equibrit!, feeling better!!???

[Painted Wings]

I had a good laugh this morning.

[Equibrit]

I cannot own up to being at all out of sorts!

[Foxtrot's]

Don't blame Canada for having any influence on fox-hunting in the US - too few, too far apart, and too much bad weather. We do sometimes enjoy a shared stirrup-cup, or two, with our friends from below the border though. (my belief is that you can't fly on one wing!). Back east it is more traditional, but here in the west, heck, cowboys are welcome.

[AdAblurr02]

Don't blame Canada for having any influence on fox-hunting in the US - too few, too far apart, and too much bad weather. We do sometimes enjoy a shared stirrup-cup, or two, with our friends from below the border though. (my belief is that you can't fly on one wing!). Back east it is more traditional, but here in the west, heck, cowboys are welcome.

Hey, Foxtrot's, how far west are you? About half our personal good buddy Irish horse folk are just north of the Border, and our stud is dual registered - matter of fact, inspected and approved in Canada! It is NICE to have two wings :)

[xeroxchick]

While it may be just an American thing, it still may be traditional to us. America's been around for just a bit now and doing our own thing, so it's okay if we have some traditions too. Especially considering how not everyone from here arrived from one place and might have added some different ideas into the mix.

Amen!

Especially considering how American fox hunting evolved for the territory and, ahem, OUR traditions still permit us to hunt.

[Equibrit]

I will have to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are just misinformed.
http://www.countryside-alliance.org.uk/hunting-campaigns/hunting-views/hunting-continues-to-grow/
It would be interesting if you could relate how your hunting has evolved.

[Anne FS]

I do miss the mane to grab when she takes a big fence,

You put in only 8 or 9 sturdy plaits and each will be of a size to be quite the handle. Grab one!

I got Daphne Moore's Famous Foxhunters off the shelf and it shows the 10th Duke of Beaufort, who ought to know, at his 70th Birthday Meet (1970) on a horse with either 6 or 7 plaits, plus forelock.

Also shown with definitely less than 9: Capt. Ronnie Wallace (1952), Lt.-Col. SIr Peter Farquhar, Mr. W.W. Brainard, Jr. (Old Dominion).

Shown with no plaits at all (so use these as your precedent when the fashion police criticize you):

Sir Edward Curre (1921), Major W.W.B. Scott (1921, Old Berks), and a different photo of Capt. R.E. Wallace from 1964.

Your aching fingers will thank me.

[UNCeventer]

so then... how many braids for stallions???