Scott Hassler: He's done it again, IMHO. Another great essay... [Archive]

ise@ssl

Oct. 30, 2007, 09:39 AM

I haven't seen this article yet - my COTH magazines usually come 2 or 3 at a time - very late!

I'm just not sure where the statistical information is coming from to make the emphatic statement that the gene pool is shrinking. While the european sporthorse breeding industry can hang it's hat on a complete and reliable tracking system for horses, their pedigree and performance, the US does NOT have any comparable system.

The current horse ID system is so rife with errors, duplications and omissions, it cannot be used for any statistical analysis. My background is in financial and statistical analysis and I wouldn't use the current USEF, USDF systems for any conclusions and specifially not any forcasting.

Additionally, the globalization impact has not yet completely impacted the exportation of horse semen from the European continent to North America. Additionally, other continental markets are only starting to emerge (i.e. Australia, New Zealand, South American, Asia and to a very minor extent the provinces in South Africa). Europe is still going through an adjustment from Eastern Europe entering the market place, both as a supplier and user of sporthorses. Western European countries are also realizing changes in agriculture with younger generations looking to shift from "livestock" farming (labor intensive) to crop farming. This phenomenon has already occurred significantly in North America and even our own personal breeding business we face the financial reality of extremely high labor costs or to some extent no labor pool available at affordable cost. The shift of livestock type farming from Western Europe to Eastern Europe may occur simply due to the fact that there is more available open farmland in Eastern Europe.

I believe a shift in marketing of other gene pools possibly coming from the "rank and file" in the horse breeding business in all of Europe. At the present time the exportation of frozen semen seems to track the bloodlines that are the "flavor of the year" and are actively pushed by the Verbands and promoted through the selection process of stallions. This approval/selection process is still very tightly controlled by a small group of overseers. Freezing and exporting semen of good quality and with reliable standards is something which is expanding significantly in Europe and perhaps this additional source of revenue will be sought out by breeders all across Europe. It's an open market so supply and demand will rule. I can have access to other than the top marketed stallions by working directly with a stallion owner on the other side of the pond.

While free markets can result in monopolies - which is what Mr. Hassler states - that only happens when there is no CHANGE to the product/service available. Therein lies the achilles heel to his concept. The horse breeding business is not static - it's dynamic and changes constantly with numerous variable. We should look to even our own breeding businesses to see if how dynamics work. Both from inside influences (our own results) and outside influences (other breeders results, performance information on pedigrees, etc.).

One source of data we can absolutely NOT use for this process is the pedigree information relating to only our High Performance competition horses. This is an extremely small sampling of the sporthorse industry in general. Unless and until we have a complete SPORTHORSE TRACKING SYSTEM - attempting to arrive at conclusions with respect to gene pool size and changes CANNOT be done. We just do not have a reliable sampling for any analysis - except the absolute conclusion - we have no reliable data.

I have not problem with looking to a future with perhaps reduced breeding. But would hope that we can pull the US out of the dark ages with respect to tracking and documenting our sporthorses - similar to the fabulous sytem available to TB and QH breeders. With that absolutely necessary tool we will be able to breed better athletes based on better information and performances records. And I also believe we will see a significant change in the industry in Europe as their economies dictate change must happen.

Peg

Oct. 30, 2007, 09:47 AM

I appreciate what Scott is doing. I was present at his talk during Dressage at Devon, which was very timely ,concerning breeding and mare base. Remember, he has a strong base in German style husbandry, and is merely spreading the information to American breeders. We are very smitten with stallions, sometimes forgetting what the mare brings to the table. Mares are the key. Yes, a stallion can "stamp" his offspring, but so does a mare. As it is though, it takes time to find what "nick" is good for your mare/mares, which it is wise to listen to the experience of those who have found those. Breed associations, like the German Verband have collected statisitcs and crunched numbers to come up with guidelines of what specific stallions have produced in offspring. That is also a tool that is invaluable. But remember the mareline is sooooo important and should not be overlooked. That is Scott's message. It would be nice if some of the nicks could be made available to American breeders. We also have a unique opportunity here. We have a lot of older bloodlines that are wonderful, maybe not the hot ones , but great foundation lines. American breeders need some guidance about how to use them to their advantage. Let's hope that Scott can provide some of that guidance. :yes: Peg

siegi b.

Oct. 30, 2007, 11:10 AM

As a long-time breeder I was less than impressed with the article written by Scott. In my opinion, most of it just rehashed old cliches and provided no new insights whatsoever. I don't need Scott to tell me that some of the stallions/bloodlines are over-used - it's really quite obivous when you think of Sandro Hit and his bazillion approved sons and then add Donnerhall and Rubinstein to the equation.

I do respect what Scott stands for these days and think that given enough time, he will shine as our young horse trainer, but that doesn't necessarily mean that everything he puts in writing is equally as outstanding.

Just my opinion... :-)

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 30, 2007, 12:30 PM

Siegi,

Interesting comments. Perhaps the reason why I see them in a different light is that I am a newbie in this breeding business. But, I must say, I don't think he wrote that article for the long-time, established breeder, such as yourself, that also came (I think...correct me if I'm wrong, and I apologise if I am!) from Europe. Germany, Holland, France, the United Kingdom; countries that had already been breeding horses for hundreds of years, when we, here in the states, were still trying to figure out how become a country!!!!

I would be willing to bet that the majority of people that frequent this board are relatively new breeders. I use the word relatively deliberately, as when I think of long-time breeders, I think of Jorg Clasen,...whose family has been on the same property since the 13th century!

Having said that, I also think you have solved a lot of the problems that some breeders struggle to overcome: you've built demand--through a lot of hard work. You've got an exceptional eye, because of the years and sacrifices you've made to *develop* that eye. In a word, you are successful. This comes from a lifetime, I'm sure, of making a great deal of difficult choices. You've paid your dues... I'm sure many many times over.

But! Perhaps some, like me for example, need to be reminded of this,...we need to learn that our choices *can* have significant consequences, *especially* if we do not think about what those consequences can be. If you consider that his writings were directed to, perhaps, more novice breeders, then his words are, IMHO, more powerful.

Does this make sense? Or am I just rambling ... (a distinct possibility :lol:)

ASB Stars

Oct. 30, 2007, 12:37 PM

I also attended the seminar at DAD. I was very impressed.

I have been breeding horses, on a small scale, for almost thirty years. :lol: Wow! Writing that made me feel REALLY old!

I don't breed warmbloods- I breed American Saddlebreds. :yes:

And I still thought Scott was spot on with his comments, and the article. :winkgrin:

siegi b.

Oct. 30, 2007, 02:17 PM

I like Scott, too.. :-) I just think that given the fact that the Chronicle publishes his articles on a regular basis he could use that forum for education (which he has done in the past), something that is direly needed in this country.

Scott does a lot of traveling in Europe and could share the American perspective on what's going on at the stallion approvals there. American breeders are accused of using the new HOT stallion more than other (presumably better) horses - so why not get Scott's opinion on what the better horses would be given our mare base. Why not speak to issues rather than stating the obvious?

I also think that any breeder worth her salt needs to continually educate herself on what marelines produce, what other bloodlines bring to the table, and that's where I see Scott being able to give us up-to-date information.

Just because I've been breeding horses for what seems now a VERY long time doesn't mean that I don't need current information on what stallions produce on a somewhat predictable basis, and it certainly doesn't mean that I know everything on mare lines, reliability factors for sport indices, etc. It's an ongoing proposition and that's what keeps it interesting.

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 30, 2007, 02:41 PM

...he could use that forum for education (which he has done in the past), something that is direly needed in this country.

I agree. We may have to just agree to disagree, because for me it WAS educational. It was like a cuff on the head: wake up and lookit what you're doing.

...so why not get Scott's opinion on what the better horses would be given our mare base.

Oh, that's a great idea! Scott, I hope you're reading this. That would be wonderful...

...I also think that any breeder worth her salt needs to continually educate herself on what marelines produce, what other bloodlines bring to the table, and that's where I see Scott being able to give us up-to-date information.

More good suggestions. I would really like to know exactly what that phrase means too: what marelines produce ...

Walnut Farm

Oct. 30, 2007, 03:43 PM

First off, congrats to the Hasslers with their new stallion, really to my liking.

Have not read the article, but, in all the years I have been breeding, there has been talk of the shrinking gene poole. (first it was "fear" of the Weltmeyer, Rubinsteins, and now Sandro Hit). But people ofcourse breed to stallions that produces sucessful (read=expensive horses) and now they have to be dark. There is no way Sandro Hit would have bred the number of mare had he been a chestnut (this is just my own conclusion). With the number alone, ofcourse he has some good offspring! .....

Agree, that the mare is so important!

We do have to look ahead and some infusion of new blood is necessary in my opinion (and yes, I have LOTS of Donnerhall, Londonderry etc blood) but have made a point of buying/breeding something a little different now. Breeding for improvement MUST be thought of in generations

Linda

ise@ssl

Oct. 30, 2007, 05:18 PM

Hassler Dressage bought a new stallion - I hadn't heard that!

fannie mae

Oct. 30, 2007, 05:31 PM

linda - you are taking the words out of my mouth....

while i was reading this topic coincidentally another topic popped up in a popular german forum titled:
"once blessed -today forgotten? what about the r-line?"

the author is asking if the popular oh so black and beautifully kicking S-line is killing out the r and if our present gene-pool is getting affected by this?

i spend some time thinking about it and my answer is this:

the current s-line hype might be a marketing success rather than a breeding success. MIGHT. and if that is the case than the market will rule it out itself.

it does remind me of the w-line hype we had ten, fifteen years ago:
20% of any verbands licensing catalogue started with w...
but only couple of years ago at the hannoverian licensing there weren't even bids anymore for two or three licensed sons by weltmeyer... overfed.
but how did it go from there on?
the w has well established in the damlines and these are being looked at with respect - and that has a reason (and colour is not one of them...)
"proven" bloodlines establish via damlines.

horse breeding culture in europe over the last hundred+plus years or so gives the best example:
identification via damline the way the trakehners do it and the entire (european that is, can't speak for the US) thouroughbred breed does it, or the holsteiners when marking down their damlines in numbers, speaks for itself. and even hannoverian and oldenburg breeders do know their damlines.... just that most of the potential customers don't speak about them that much.
as a stallion line dies out in less than ten-twenty years, no matter if for the good or the bad (ex. the westfalian P -pilot- line)

if a stallion however does find its way into (succesful) damlines is a completely different story.
perfect example:
look at the present oldenburg stallion list for the licensing approval next months.
a frightening number of s-majority.
but bearly any of them to be found in the damlines (and there are enough s-dams matured by now; just for the record: SH is turns 15 next year, his first daughters should have grandkids on the ground themselves by now...) - and what are the letters the damlines are ruled by?
R and D - amongst others.

a stallion line is not (and will not) be manifested EVER by colour and auction records only - as auction records die out over time and so do their objects.
since the people who make the market for auction records and hip lines are not and will never be the ones who establish long lasting damlines. at least not in this country.

the reason for that is simple:
the decision to breed any good mare to any given hip stallion is easy made and done.
but the decision to keep a filly out of that cross as a future broodmare is a completely different one.
as long as the foals out of such cross sell well (as endproducts) that's fine for the breeder - and for the breed. it wont do any harm to squeezing down the gene pool.

chances are high that tomorrows superstar (look at quaterback this year) arises from a completely different sire line - and -despite colour- will yet have to prove its justification.

am i gonna keep my filly by S - ?
am i gonna keep my filly by Q - ?
i have kept fillies by L and B - and none of them is black.

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 30, 2007, 05:36 PM

fannie mae,

Your post is fascinating. Difficult to read, yes!!! But fascinating!!!

If I understand correctly, you're saying the sires don't matter as much as we think...but the sire line THROUGH the dam matters a whole heck of a lot!

What do you mean by hip lines?

AND, by the way, why in HECK is all the fuss made about the stallions in breeding, when, from what everyone is saying, we should all be making a huge fuss over the MARES!!! My goodness. In Europe, when you look at a pedigree ... is the focus on the Damline?

P.S. By the way, I'm dumbfounded by your knowledge. I don't care if you copied it verbatim out of a book! (Kidding :lol:) At least you knew where to find the book!!!! :yes:

Tiki

Oct. 30, 2007, 06:42 PM

Well, besides the lines themselves, you do want to see lots of StPS in the damlines.

And who is the Hassler's new stallion. I didn't know they had bought anyone.

siegi b.

Oct. 30, 2007, 07:42 PM

Sabine - great post, as always! What do we have to do to get you to write articles for breeders that get published in the Chronicle of the Horse? And OMOM, there's your explanation regarding the importance of mare lines. Hip, by the way, means cool or hot or latest and greatest... :-)

And yes, I have noticed a definite trend towards chestnut horses in my herd even though I try so hard to please the general public. :-)

siegi b.

Oct. 30, 2007, 07:43 PM

P. S.: Did Scott and Susanne get the Rousseau stallion that was just approved and did not go through the auction?

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 30, 2007, 09:07 PM

And OMOM, there's your explanation regarding the importance of mare lines. Hip, by the way, means cool or hot or latest and greatest... :-)

*SNORT* Waaaaahaaaaahaaaaa. I thought hip was some sort of European/Breeders clique/esoteric breeders term. (I'm such a goober!!!)

I am going to have to read it over a few times before I come back with more questions!!!! But thank you, both!

Fairview Horse Center

Oct. 30, 2007, 09:32 PM

Like I have been saying, soon we will see nothing but Sandrodonnerubinmeyers. ;)

or Weltsteinhithalls. Maybe a few Rubinhallsandrowelts, and we will cross them all together.

SAVE THE G-LINE!!!

YankeeLawyer

Oct. 30, 2007, 09:58 PM

elly

Oct. 30, 2007, 10:34 PM

Like I have been saying, soon we will see nothing but Sandrodonnerubinmeyers. ;)

or Weltsteinhithalls. Maybe a few Rubinhallsandrowelts, and we will cross them all together.

Fairview Horse Center -

This made me laugh out loud !

talloaks

Oct. 30, 2007, 10:43 PM

P. S.: Did Scott and Susanne get the Rousseau stallion that was just approved and did not go through the auction?

I had seen where the Rousseau stallion was owned by Harmony Sporthorses and Ingo Pape.

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 31, 2007, 07:36 AM

Like I have been saying, soon we will see nothing but Sandrodonnerubinmeyers. ;)

or Weltsteinhithalls. Maybe a few Rubinhallsandrowelts, and we will cross them all together.

SAVE THE G-LINE!!!

OH BOY!!!! What a great "S" name!!! Now I won't have to start a new thread asking for "S" names. :lol: :lol: :lol:

And FHC, those are pretty good W and R names you've suggested too!!! :lol:

talloaks

Oct. 31, 2007, 07:53 AM

Fairview Horse Center

Oct. 31, 2007, 08:36 AM

Hey these names are starting to sound like Santa's reindeer!! Well the Season is getting near!!:lol:

Apparently Christmas is now before it gets cold. I went into Home Depot a few days ago looking for a Kero heater. No heaters of any kind in stock yet, but half the store is Christmas stuff. :confused:

I guess I will have to use Donnerrubinmeyer's blankets. :lol:

eggbutt

Oct. 31, 2007, 09:13 AM

Hassler Dressage bought a new stallion - I hadn't heard that!

I believe they are referring to Wamberto. That partnership was announced some time ago. They are unsure if he will be a breeding stallion or a competition horse when I last spoke with Susanne, but that was a while ago. He's at the 100 day test now.

Go to www.hasslerdressage.com (http://www.hasslerdressage.com) and click on "news" to see recent news about the Champion Rousseau son (owned by Harmony Sporthorses since a young age) as well as the July announcement on Wamberto.

ise@ssl

Oct. 31, 2007, 09:44 AM

I understood that Warmberto was OWNED by Harmony Sporthorses.

EquusMagnificus

Oct. 31, 2007, 09:47 AM

Well this topic is extremely interesting.

Glad to read I am doing good by focusing on the dam line!

I wish we had breeding indexes and suggestions of nicks as with the TB breedings. It would be EXTREMELY helpful for novice breeders. I am left in the dark. Thank goodness I have quite a few people I can run to for advice but it's still very hard!!

The buying public also needs to be educated differently, some do know the bloodlines but only the SH, Donnerhalls and Rubinsteins thus might think your, better-than-average youngster by a lesser known stallion is worth less! It's sad!

I think amongst the breeders we need to stop focusing on the sires. Yes, the sires can have a significant impact on the breed just for the fact that they can sire hundreds of foals while a full-time broodmare might get 20 foals on the ground, but in the end, the mares are the backbone of the breeding.

Peg

Oct. 31, 2007, 11:00 AM

At the risk of being killed on line, :eek:I will say this once....It is my understanding that Scott and Ingo Pape have had a longstanding friendship and business relationship. It obviously continues and Scott promotes Ingo's stallion here now, as he did while at Hilltop. I just hope that Scott can put his business interests aside to be able to suggest the most correct stallion to those asking for advice. Not everyone is after the larger bodied wb. And remember, his opinions (and those of anyone else) are just that. The breeder needs to be informed enough and have mares that are above average and produce as good as themselves or better. It is their responsibility to breed high quality stock and stand behind them.The Papes have been influential in the warmblood world and Ingo said a few years ago when he was test rider at Paxton that much of the old lines need to be preserved, such as Pik Bube(I also like Pik Bube, but he was a tank) If you look at what Ingo breeds, he is more into the less trendy?(right term?) type. I took it that he wants to maintain substance.I understand where he is coming from but it is not the type the verband is promoting at this point, and as another poster stated, not every breeder goes by what the verband suggests. I was in Verden last year when Pape's 2yo was licensed, but not made premium. Last years' colt , in my opinion was a superior individual, but at that stage in his development, looked heavy compared to all of the Laurie's that they made premium. But when he moved, all of that was forgotten. He was one of the featured stallions this year, I believe, along with Rob Roy. How did he look to you? :)A year and training makes a huge difference.Time will tell, but already those that are looking forward in the YH competitions are saying that the very leggy willowy ones will fade in popularity. :confused:What's one to do? Peg

vineyridge

Oct. 31, 2007, 11:13 AM

Looking at this question from a TB point of view, the issue of genetic bottlenecks has come up over and over again with "hot" sirelines. It's the damlines that have preserved the unfashionable blood until the sire du jour gets diluted.

For example, there were eleven races in this year's Breeders Cup last weekend. All eleven winners had at least one line to Northern Dancer and to Mr. Prospector. There are very few sires left that do not trace to Nearco. If I remember correctly, there is only one Matchem line that has bred on and only one Herod line that has bred on. Every other TB traces to Eclipse in tail male. But the TB is still strong because the damlines have preserved the the other genes.

So I wouldn't worry too much about losing enough diversity to keep a strong performance basis in WBs.

It is too bad that y'all don't have access to as much damline information as the TB folks do. It really is invaluable.

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 31, 2007, 11:28 AM

It is too bad that y'all don't have access to as much damline information as the TB folks do. It really is invaluable.

Why is this, vineyridge.

I'm still trying to figure out why the damline is so important. A stallion sires, in the case of popular WB stallions, thousands of foals. Does the mare contribute *SO* much more that researching the damline is so important?

I guess that's one of the issues I'm stumbling over. (Sorry to be dense.)

EquusMagnificus

Oct. 31, 2007, 11:35 AM

My understanding is that genes are held in more "solidly" in mares then in sires because the mare is said to contribute more then 50% of the foal...

pwynnnorman

Oct. 31, 2007, 11:44 AM

Interesting article, but...

I appreciate Mr. Hassler, but IMO he's speaking to maybe 10-20% of the breeders out there, and that's unfortunate. He's right, certainly, about mares and all, but IMO he fails to be frank about what needs to be said.

I read the article a while ago and just skimmed it again a moment ago, so correct me if I'm wrong but nowhere in that article does he ever use the word "Thoroughbred," and IMO until he addresses the role the TB plays in the US sporthorse breeding industry, he's being elitist and thus not as helpful as he could be.

And, PLEASE NOTE, by "elitist" I do NOT NOT NOT mean that as disparagement but as PURELY descriptive, i.e. he is describing the wherewithalls of an elite portion of the breeding population in this country, again, in my guestimate, maybe 10-20% of the sporthorse breeders out there who do not rely to at least some extent on (US) TB blood or some other non-WB, non-European blood (liek Iberians).

This is NOT a quality issue, BTW. It is a decisionmaking and planning issue. Because 80% of sporthorse breeders do not have access to European quality mares, I think it is a bit unfortunate that Mr. Hassler didn't note that that blood probably means finding that nick is going to take more than just one foal out of a given mare. Heck, possibly more than two if that mare is going to have a long-term contribution to a breeding program (say, generations worth).

Mr. Hassler says, for example, "In some cases, as a breeder with a very nice mare, you may want to look outside the box..."

What the heck is a "very nice mare" and how many breeders know--really KNOW--they have one? That's TWO questions, BTW. Is a very nice mare one with good conformation and movement? Is it one with a good pedigree for producing performers (and if so, then what's a "good" pedigree--taking into account, again, any relatively unknown US TB/non-European influence)? And if the breeder "knows," how did they arrive at that conclusion? Through inspections? Performance? Produce? All that is perfectly fine, but honesty along those lines is critical if anything else Mr. Hassler says is to really make any sense at all.

And, in the end, the bottom line is that if you do NOT have a European mare whose blood has been inspected and tested for generations, you cannot proceed with your mare in the way Mr. Hassler suggests unless you are prepared to be very, very patient in assessing the results, IMO. And that does NOT mean "pretty baby syndrome," either. It means "but can it perform in any significant way." And we all know how very difficult it is to find that out in this country.

So good luck in "finding the stallion that compliments the mare," as Mr. Hassler states. It's a nicely idealistic goal that applies to not a heck of a lot of breeders here.

Sorry, folks, but I get edgy when an article is written for only an elite fraction of the populace without even an offhand acknowledgement or passing mention that there are other folks out there who are also worthy of some consideration, such as guidance on how to assess a crossbred mare or TB contributions.

vineyridge

Oct. 31, 2007, 11:55 AM

I'm no expert on this, but there are a several reasons why the dam and dam line is so important. Genetically, the X Chromosome, whether it comes from the sire or dam is supposed to function slightly differently from the other chromosomes. Then there are genes that are turned on or off depending on whether the foal is a filly or a colt. The MtDNA, which controls the mitochondria that fuel cell function come only from the dam, so the muscle cells' efficiency comes through the dam and only through the dam.

It's also believed that the mother-child relationship is very important in temperament, bidability, and reactions to the outside world. If the dam is a sweetie, her foals with be likely to take after her in their relations with humans.

The TB people have records going back centuries on the performance lines of their mares. They know which mares have produced winners and can pull up that pedigree information going back 4 or five generations. Some 5 generation pedigrees may be thirty pages long identifying only the offspring from dams in the tail female line. Some pedigrees may be only 1 page going back 5 generations tail female.

If you're looking for a performer, knowing that the tail female line has produced 30 pages of winners in five generations gives much better odds in a breeding than knowledge that the female line has produced only one page worth.

And all breeding is is playing the odds.

ise@ssl

Oct. 31, 2007, 11:56 AM

I 2nd the issue of the TB's in our mare base here. I've been fortunate to have 3 very good TB mares who were the foundation for my WB breeding originally and their daughters are the strongest mares in my mare band now. I pushed to have the mares in the annual foal report for the ISR/OLDNA (which is printed in the breeder's guide) indicate "xx" for TB and the mare's sire. What this provide is an ongoing indicator of which approved stallions are producing premium foals out of TB mares. We found there were several lines that did and kept to those lines. We have also found the best TB lines that cross with WB's are the old distrance running lines that produced a better shoulder. The move toward more and more sprinters in the TB's is slowing drying up those old distrance running lines and breeding TB's built to sprint - much different build.

When it comes to the performance part of the equations - WE HAVE A BIG BLACK HOLE HERE in the USA. I feel Scott's focus should not be on these articles wagging fingers in our faces but a finger wagging at the USEF & USDF to provide us with the data base we enjoy in our TB's and their pedigree and production. When ever the issue of KNOWING THE MARE line comes up - one of the most influential parts of the equation - we have nothing to go on for production here in the US for our WB's - Europe has volumes. With respect to our TB approved mares crossing on Warmbloods - again - we haven nothing.

So perhaps the question should be posed back to the author of the article - WHEN CAN WE EXPECT A TRACKING SYSTEM THAT PROVIDES US WITH THE SAME INFORMATOIN ON PEDIGREE AND PERFORMANCE THAT EUROPE HAS BASED IT'S BREEDING SUCCESS ON FOR MANY MANY DECADES???

And Vineyridge - I concur with the fact that the foal is influenced significantly in behavior by the dams. The spend every day from birth to weaning and it's hard not to consider the influence the mares has on that baby.

Hillside H Ranch

Oct. 31, 2007, 12:12 PM

So, getting back to the "shrinking gene-pool". I see a lot of dressage lines mentioned in the reference to this phenomenon, but what about the jumpers? My interests lie in that direction and I was just wondering if people felt it was becoming as bottle-necked as the dressage breeding world is perceived as becoming. I mean, we all know the C line holsteiners show up all over jumper pedigrees, but to me at least it seems like there are more lines being used to successfully produce jumpers than there are being used for dressage breeding. Please correct me if I'm wrong!

Peg

Oct. 31, 2007, 12:26 PM

I'm not sure Mr. Hassler is discriminating against our TB or crossbred base. They are extremely necessary in the present and long run. If you keep breding nothing but WB to WB without "blood" you come up with a draft eventually. AA, Arabs, TB, and others are important to the WB as they add refinement and athleticism, among other things. My take on think out of the box is reference to older ,less trendy lines. But we all need to adhere to some sort of guidelines, as proposed by our breed organizations, regardless of it is Germand verbands, AHS, Oldenburg NA, ISR, AWB and on . We try to make sense of these in our inspections, and performance tests, but that is only one day. A breeder still has to know quality, and perhaps that takes time.
One must go to different inspections, breed shows, performance show to be able to solidify an image in their brain about what is good horseflesh. Some is driven by trends, other results by personal preference. What it boils down to is breeders being able to produce a sound, solid riding or breeding horse that can satisfy the persons buying them. This is tough, because not every rider is able to do upper level work or handle a horse that is too hot. The mare brings alot, but the right stallion can bring a lot too. That's what watching and learning and patience can do. Peg:)

pwynnnorman

Oct. 31, 2007, 12:30 PM

I'm not sure Mr. Hassler is discriminating against our TB or crossbred base.

I didn't mean to imply discrimination. I mean he isn't addressing them, period. And yet to be realistic in THIS country about breeding in THIS country, and to be helpful to more than just a few, you just can't ignore the issue of non-European blood. We need his expertise in THAT area, perhaps even more than in the idealistic world of breeding the Euro-bred.

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 31, 2007, 12:38 PM

WHEN CAN WE EXPECT A TRACKING SYSTEM THAT PROVIDES US WITH THE SAME INFORMATOIN ON PEDIGREE AND PERFORMANCE THAT EUROPE HAS BASED IT'S BREEDING SUCCESS ON FOR MANY MANY DECADES???

[I'll probably regret this.]

ise,

If you have such a burning passion for this, ise, why don't you do something about it?

Was it two years ago...? I had been ranting and raving about the lack of young horse trainers in this country. LLDM, frugalannie, Lorik and I put together an open letter. Lori presented it at the USDF convention, and it was read aloud at the Breeding Committee open meeting. (If that's incorrect, Lori, please let me know.)

Now, I don't want to say that Scott was appointed on the merits of that letter; I doubt very seriously that letter prompted ANY *specific* action, but at least we presented something that accurately reflected how the community-ok, maybe not EVERYONE, but more than we four-felt about the problem.

It's easy to be critical, but much more difficult to be proactive.

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 31, 2007, 12:43 PM

I mean he isn't addressing them, period.

Perhaps the reason he isn't is that they seem to be a educated community unto themselves, with exceptional knowledge ... and information--e.g., they've solved a lot of their individual problems that we, as SHB, are struggling with,...because they're different. KWIM?

Peg

Oct. 31, 2007, 12:49 PM

Perhaps the reason he isn't is that they seem to be a educated community unto themselves, with exceptional knowledge ... and information--e.g., they've solved a lot of their individual problems that we, as SHB, are struggling with,...because they're different. KWIM? That is true. Many breeds of horses are involved in SHB. The USDF is reaching out by offering the IBC's at shows because they're different. USEF is offering All-Breeds. Peg

eggbutt

Oct. 31, 2007, 12:51 PM

At the risk of being killed on line, :eek:I will say this once....It is my understanding that Scott and Ingo Pape have had a longstanding friendship and business relationship. It obviously continues and Scott promotes Ingo's stallion here now, as he did while at Hilltop. I just hope that Scott can put his business interests aside to be able to suggest the most correct stallion to those asking for advice.

I can tell you first hand that Scott has (at least in my situation) set aside his personal business interests when giving me advice. I have worked with Scott and Susanne for several years getting suggestions from them to offset several of my mares to make good (hopefully great!!) riding horses with excellent temperaments, good trainability, athletism, yada-yada-yada. Never have they pushed "their" stallions on me, whether at Hilltop or at Hassler Dressage. Quite the contrary. I recently questioned Scott about using a specific stallion he respresents for a heavier, more old fashioned mare we have and he was quite candid and honest in his response that it would not be a good match and explained why in detail. He suggested several other stallions to consider that he does not have connections with (to my knowledge). I honestly believe the Hasslers are passionate about breeding sport horses correct for the needs of the rider/breeder/whomever their audience is, regardless of whether the stallion choice is one of theirs.

Peg

Oct. 31, 2007, 01:00 PM

I, too may be sorry for posting this ,:eek: but we need every tool that we can get, but if they are not used, we risk ending up with horses that are low-quality and unsalable. To add another point, the addage has been to "keep your best to breed and sell others to ride" I know of many horses that were riding quality(a stretch), that were sold as breeding stock when they became lame. Maybe something good could come of it, but the risk(all breeding is a risk) is far greater than from a dam of EM, StPr, Premium quality. Our mare selection is not the greatest sometimes. I bred a mare as a newbie that I shouldn't have. The result was ok, but could have turned out not so well. I personally depend upon depend the statistics provided by my association- AHS is beginning to collect data, the Hannoverian Verband , Oldenburg, Westphalia, Rhineland,Trakhener, Danish and Dutch. I wait for my association to report on TB guidance. I do like the TB used in Germany named Cardinal and have breed to double the infkuence with great results. I am not elitist where Europe is concerned. It's just where the roots lie. I love tradition, but I do not pan those who choose to experiment. Peg:)

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 31, 2007, 01:09 PM

...but what about the jumpers?

The reason why these discussions seem to be always slanted towards dressage is ... GENERALLY SPEAKING, there are more dressage people that are interested in breeding, plus they're (dressage riders) the ones that will actually purchase babies.

The comment I hear most often in the h/j world is: You don't ride the papers.

Now, I'll confess, I think this is changing in leaps and bounds,...almost daily. And obviously, it's only a certain segment of the h/j market. BUT, I believe it IS accurate. When I speak to well educated horsepeople that have spent their lives in the sport, and mention a few well known stallions (e.g., Landadel) you get the blank look in return.

HUGE GIANT DISCLAIMER: This is not true for all H/Js.

DownYonder

Oct. 31, 2007, 01:09 PM

I didn't mean to imply discrimination. I mean he isn't addressing them, period. And yet to be realistic in THIS country about breeding in THIS country, and to be helpful to more than just a few, you just can't ignore the issue of non-European blood. We need his expertise in THAT area, perhaps even more than in the idealistic world of breeding the Euro-bred.

May I venture to say that perhaps the reason he didn't address it is because he is looking at the issue from his own perspective - i.e., that of a dressage breeder/rider/trainer. Top national or international dressage contenders very rarely come from TB dams, so it is understandable why he didn't address it.

We all tend to look at things from our own perspective. Hunter and event breeders tend to use TB mares more than dressage and jumper breeders, so of course they will be more concerned with how TB mares fit into the picture. Perhaps someone should contact Scott and ask him to address the TB mare issue. Again, he is primarily a dressage guy, but he has had enough exposure to the other disciplines that he should be able to discuss using TB mares.

eggbutt

Oct. 31, 2007, 01:58 PM

Perhaps someone should contact Scott and ask him to address the TB mare issue.

He'll be in NC this weekend for a clinic....I'll be glad to ask him to do this for an upcoming article if he can.

pwynnnorman

Oct. 31, 2007, 02:06 PM

We all tend to look at things from our own perspective. Hunter and event breeders tend to use TB mares more than dressage and jumper breeders, so of course they will be more concerned with how TB mares fit into the picture. Perhaps someone should contact Scott and ask him to address the TB mare issue. Again, he is primarily a dressage guy, but he has had enough exposure to the other disciplines that he should be able to discuss using TB mares.

Oh, yes, I agree--and there's nothing "wrong" with the situation. I just felt the need to point it out, is all. It's the crossbreeding conundrum. I'd love to hear an expert's advice on it. For example, how do you decide after two or three foals what you have in the mare (crossbred or not) and what crossed on her best? The TB racehorse folks, I've heard, sometimes will breed to three different stallions in three years, going back to the first if and when the first foal starts as a two-year-old. What would be a comparable policy in sport horse breeding, I wonder? It'd be interesting to hear his perspective on that.

OMOM, I'm afraid I'm not quite following you. Who do you mean by "they"?

not again

Oct. 31, 2007, 02:27 PM

This topic is loaded with many oversimplifications. Dressage breeding targets several different markets just like racing does. Hunter and jumper breeding does the same. Lumping all thoroughbreds in one group and all warmbloods into another doesn't do the subject justice.
Are you breeding for young horse tests in dressage, or grand prix (very different gene pools) Are you breeding for adult amateur hunters? How about international jumpers? Two year old sprints? Steeplechasing? Eventing at training level? Four star three day? Fashionable bloodlines for one purpose may be a disaster in another.

ise@ssl

Oct. 31, 2007, 03:08 PM

Omom - I've been breeding for over 20 years - originally TB's but mostly warmbloods and now German riding ponies. The issue of a ONE HORSE - ONE NUMBER FOR LIFE has been my focus for a very long time. And I've written many letters. So have many other breeders with no real success. So please don't try to tell me I just complain an am not proactive.

The importance of the mare line isn't breaking news. But what would be breaking news is to know we can actually have the same system as Europe (which the USEF was offered and turned down about 8 years ago). And the same number to compete in every single discipline - not one for each (with fees for each as well!) as we currently have. Only then will be be able to see the results of performance through the dam lines - we can go on line and find out racing results for TB's with no problems - why can't we do it for sporthorses?

Otherwise any observation with respect to a "shrinking gene pool" is just that ...an observation. I see no data to tell us that is happening here in the US - if anything with more and more European stallions being offered through frozen semen we are actually EXPANDING OUR GENE POOL. In fact, we've had the ability to keep some of the old lines going here because the Europeans were pushing the sales of the old line stallion to export and focusing on their new hot stars. If you look at some of the production of top premiums and riding horses in this country you will still see some of the best "OLD LINES" - Furioso comes to mind.

fannie mae

Oct. 31, 2007, 03:18 PM

Why is this, vineyridge.

I'm still trying to figure out why the damline is so important. A stallion sires, in the case of popular WB stallions, thousands of foals. Does the mare contribute *SO* much more that researching the damline is so important?

I guess that's one of the issues I'm stumbling over. (Sorry to be dense.)

not too long ago i would have backed your assumption that since a stallion can produce millions of foals while a mare can only have a limited number this is the real hazard to the gene poole (shrinking) - however, i have somewhat changed my mind with respect to anaylsying where these millions of foals go to - and the huge difference is the simple recognition that most of these stellar foals or later on "hot" selling auction horses simply don't end up in breeding. again:
german speaking.
auctions mainly provide for end-product "users" - the horses are being "consumed" for sports in the case of riding horses or for "hopefully-to-be-used-in-sports" with respect to foals.
economically speaking, there is a difference in "consuming" vs "investing" - both involves "spending" but it is the "consumer" spending that drives the "hot" market - not the "investment"/broodmare spending.
"investment" in a broodmare (longterm/economically speaking) is not necessarily part of the hot auction circus.
yes, they have started to include broodmares in the auctions, and that is a good thing for all parties involved, sellers and buyers.

but breeders i know (again: german speaking) most certainly don't buy broodmares in auctions, no matter what kind of auction. those are most certainly not the ones who drive that market.
they buy them from other breeders knowing these damlines, "produce" them from their own damlines (in case of elder, traditional breeders) and so on.
are these broodmares descending from hot lines?
looking at the current licensing catalogues (an even more precious, since 5 times as many horses!) looking at the preselection lists i simply don't find too many damlines descending from "hip" lines.
there is a lot of D and R and W and F to be found in the damlines - and these lines have somewhat proven to be producer lines.
actually, i was surprised to see so few S-line mares listed as dams for this years stallion prospectuses. i would sure have expected to see more of these mares (S and H at least).
how come?

at the same time i am struggeling myself to make exactly that decision:
i allow myself to keep 2, maybe 3 fillies as future broodmares. and i was more than convinced by my S-colt this year, however, it was a colt, so keeping him was not an option, anyway. the same question will however arise again next year:
in case of an s-filly, will i keep it if that means having to let anotherone go for that?
and i couldn't believe it but i have found myself answering this question with a clear: no!
why?

because i guess my gutt feeling keeps telling me, better stay with the "proven" lines (traditional - B and L in this case to maintain my F).
and for any certain line to become a traditional proven one it simply takes more than having produced a thousand auction horses and foals over the last years.
"value" in breeding is defined differently.
it has nothing to do with producing flashy end products - and don't get my wrong:
even though any breeder aims to porduce super sport horses any super sport horse can at the same time still be an endproduct only.

as consolidation and maintainance of valuable heritage features is not necessarily defined by star kicking gaites/highest jump (or super sport horses).

thus, i found myself keeping the lesser flashy but hopefully well consolidated B-line filly....
as i know for sure:
this line will still be known for the good even in ten or twenty years from now....
recognition value.
consolidated -proven- heritage of no doubt.

so what about hip lines then?
and don't get me wrong, i am by no means trying to run a battle against the s-line - i make use of ot myself.
same for the Q-line.
i have used it even before a certain quaterback was born....
and i still favour this line over many many others of even higher recognition value already.
but will it consolidate?

as the question is:
will these lines manage to keep their recognition value even in ten or twenty years from now?

same is in question for the current hype of H.
and again:
i found myself about to buy an H-filly this year as i was more than convinced not only by herself but even had the huge advantage meeting on her dam, granddam, grandgrand dam and a handful of get arising from that family... you can't do any better when having to "value" a damline with respect to considering a filly as a future broodmare.
and i still haven't bought her.
as i simply don't see myself convinced yet that this line will still be of existence and recognition value in ten to twenty years from now.... and if that isn't the case i don't want that blood in my mare line.
because IF by than such line has "died out" it was for a reason...

and i would assume that this kind of philosophie (i guess it is philosophie, as it is hard to be put in equasions or any kind of empiric prove to lay hands on) probably runs the decisions of the majority of breeders overhere who DO provide for all those 500 of stallion prospectuses at the various preselection catalogues every year... just that they don't put it in words and speak it out loud the way i do right now (and please don't blame me, i am just trying to come up with a somewhat understandable explanation why things are the way they are...) otherwise you would see much more of hip-line dams providing for the catalogue products, no matter if foal auctions, riding horse auctions or licensings...

so.
does that mean hip lines are no good at all?
no.
but they need to PROVE themselves with repsect to further PRODUCTION. via the damline. and that takes time.

and no, i am not into this theorie that a dam counts above 50+ % in any given foal production. i consider that b.s. ...
as any mare does or does not produce well - with respect to passing on her positive features dominatly while (hopefully) not passing on her negatives.
that is just a fact.
and it depends entirely on the individual mare, no matter what breed or pedigree.
and it does take a few foals to recognize if she does happen to be a "good" producer or not.
you can consider yourself lucky if you happen to own such mare.
and i don't know of any such mare to be for sale in my area...
as these kind of mares are breeder's treasures...
BECAUSE it takes so much time to really recognize her value as a broodmare.

but back to the toppic:
probably the best indicator for a certain "provement" of any given line is looking at damlines in catalogues. if they do not reflect the sheer mass of any given hip line in the past you know it was just a hip line and no more.
and than, such line was no hazard to the gene poole, either. since it only takes ten to twenty years (timespan of recognition value) for a hip line to die out. no matter how many foals any given stallion might have produced.
since the new generation is NOT being produced by these - it is most likely being produced by a majority of damlines descending from traditional lines and only very few (WRDF) will make it per generation.
time is yet to come to judge upon S Q H and others...

numbers speaking:
there are about 18.000 mares registered in the hannoverian studbook.
9.000 westfalian
3.000 rhineland (both make up for NRW)
7.500 holstein
7.500 oldenburg

45.000 mares in ttl germany - and these are only the big verbands.
assume half of them produce a healthy foal per year.
20.000-25.000 foals per year.

how many of these are by "hip" stallions and their descend?
for the sake of the discussion:
5.000
maybe 8.000

so what?
there is a "comnsumer" market out there that easily absorbs 8.000 foals.
hannover alone sold the 1.000sd(!) horse THIS YEAR at the latest stallion auction.
and there are still some auctions to come this year.

so that leaves another 15.000-20.000 foals by non-hot-stallions.
and even if the relation was 50:50.
still some 10.000-12.500 foals descending from non-hot lines.

but the question that really matters is:
how many of these 45.000 foals make it as a broodmare back to exactly those breeder's barns where they come from? (as those are the breeders who provide for the "market" overhere) - ?
since by rule of probability only 50% of these are fillies and probably only every 3rd to 4th filly is really being kept/sold as a broodmare (probably less) we're speaking of roughly 6.000 fillies (half of 10-12.500) and picking out 25% of these:
1.500.

1.500 potential broodmares are being born every year in this country and now go and spread these over 45.000 foals being born in total.
i'ld say that leaves a lot of room for NON-hot stallionline fillies being picked out of 45.000....

and i hope this explains why any stallion who can produce a couple of hundred foals per year still might be of no impact to the breed or gene poole in the long run...

as the key question is:
how are the fillies bred which the breeders overhere choose to keep?
check out the preselection catalogues in the next coming years for damlines and look what letters dominate ...

eggbutt

Oct. 31, 2007, 03:43 PM

Fannie Mae.....WOW:eek: Excellent response! Thank you!

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 31, 2007, 03:45 PM

Fannie Mae.....WOW:eek: Excellent response! Thank you!

I think we need to say, WOW, Fannie Mae. ANOTHER excellent response!!!

Thank you very much.

DownYonder

Oct. 31, 2007, 03:50 PM

Super response, Fannie Mae. I love how you can drill down and put everything in perspective for us.

siegi b.

Oct. 31, 2007, 05:20 PM

As I said before, it's the kind of information that just flows from Fannie Mae that warmblood breeders in the US need to be able to access. It's not that the raw data isn't there - we need somebody like Fannie Mae to put it into words that make sense to the average breeder.

Heissen Dank, Sabine!

Peg

Oct. 31, 2007, 06:42 PM

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 31, 2007, 07:54 PM

I think I understand...and, maybe, I understand a little too well. MAYBE. Because after carefully reading what she (Fannie Mae) has written, I have to come to this conclusion:

a. The key ingredient here, more than anything else, is performance. That is the ultimate judge, whether mare, filly, colt or stallion. And it's not just in-hand performance. It is performance under saddle. That is what is going to separate the sheep from the goats. Because ultimately, whether you are, as she said, a breeder or consumer, it is the performance that matters. For the breeder it is the performance of foals. If you are a consumer, it is the performance of what you've bought. Either way, the key to the lock, whether breeding or consuming is that ultimate yardstick. Performance. If this is indeed the case it says to me that the Selle Francais are on the right road: they only approve stallion by performance. They PREFER to have a performance record for their mares.

b. The key to good breeding-the key to being a good BREEDER--is the consistent production of exceptional athletic ability performance horses, and this is not necessarily just a question of gaits: it's the whole package, and that involves the mind as well as the body. Furthermore, the key is the mareline. Because, (I hope I'm getting this right) because she can only have 15 or so foals, before she is bred she must have a pedigree of excellence. The true mark of a stallion, the true value of a stallion, is what his mares are producing IN COMPETITION.

Did I get it right, Siegi, did I, did I, did I??? :lol:

vineyridge

Oct. 31, 2007, 09:01 PM

Several more points from TB breeding.

There is a concept that a given mating must "fire" to produce top quality. If the pedigrees look as though they should be compatible with linebreeding, tail female lines, and nice half siblings throughout, some breeders will say that the breeding has to be done more than once for evaluation of the nick.

TBs recognize a big difference between sires of sires and great damsires. The stallions whose daughters produce winners are as valued (or more valued) in the long term than sires who produce sons that can perform. The fact that a mare herself may have never raced or even may been unsuccessful on the track is not a good indication of her breeding value. Some of the greatest Blue Hen mares or Reines de Course never got anywhere near a racetrack. The factor that gives a mare a chance at breeding is her damline--does her tail female line, 1st dam, 2nd dam, 3rd dam, 4th dam produce black type--winners of high class races--and do the siblings and half siblings also produce.

Here's kind of an example of what I would love to do were I not so old and poor. There is a Blue Hen mare named Selene. She was the dam of five good stallions, including Hyperion, who is the foundation for a lot of British Sporthorse breeding. She had one daughter who produced a wonderful horse named Mossborough by Nearco. Mossborough sired a son named Ballymoss who is also very influential in British Sport horse breeding.

I found a mare in the Fairmount Park paddock sale who had Selene for a 5th dam and All Moonshine (Mossborough's dam) as 4th dam. I seriously thought about buying her for next to nothing and trying to back breed through linebreeding to the Selene descendants. This potentially a sterling quality sport horse mare line. The mare was "cute", and looked a lot like Selene. If I had the years and funds to breed several foals from fillies in that line, it would have been a labor of love. But I don't. I'm just too damn old.

It makes me want to scream when mare lines like Selene are allowed to die. Maybe she *was* primarily a dam of sires, and didn't produce daughters that were her equal in the breeding shed. But wouldn't it have been a grand experiment to find out?

ise@ssl

Nov. 1, 2007, 07:09 AM

And OMoM - tracking performance in this country on sporthorses is NOT POSSIBLE and the results we can find are either not complete or correct. So half the equation is missing. Therefore, my post (which you seemed to take issue with) about having a reliable tracking system for every horse in all discipline it may compete for it's entire life.

ljshorses

Nov. 1, 2007, 09:07 AM

Great reading! I have been thinking along the same lines. It's also getting quite hard to find stallions with "substance" if you need that for your mare...sometimes it feels like I'm back to breeding thoroughbreds again. Amazing how TB like many warmbloods are theses days.

The Hassler's have another "new" stallion as well. I saw him in person and though I liked him, he may not suit my mares. Very interesting bloodlines though. His name is Locksley I and he is by Londonderry out of a Weltmeyer mare. I'd love to see him under saddle, I heard he has beautiful gaits.

Tiki

Nov. 1, 2007, 10:03 AM

Who actually owns him?

Fairview Horse Center

Nov. 1, 2007, 10:54 AM

The Hassler's have another "new" stallion as well. I saw him in person and though I liked him, he may not suit my mares. Very interesting bloodlines though. His name is Locksley I and he is by Londonderry out of a Weltmeyer mare. I'd love to see him under saddle, I heard he has beautiful gaits.

That Londonderry-Weltmeyer seems to be a nice niche - Liberty Gold is Londonderry-Weltmeyer

eurofoal

Nov. 1, 2007, 11:25 AM

Interesting article, but...

I appreciate Mr. Hassler, but IMO he's speaking to maybe 10-20% of the breeders out there, and that's unfortunate. He's right, certainly, about mares and all, but IMO he fails to be frank about what needs to be said.

I read the article a while ago and just skimmed it again a moment ago, so correct me if I'm wrong but nowhere in that article does he ever use the word "Thoroughbred," and IMO until he addresses the role the TB plays in the US sporthorse breeding industry, he's being elitist and thus not as helpful as he could be.

This is NOT a quality issue, BTW. It is a decisionmaking and planning issue. Because 80% of sporthorse breeders do not have access to European quality mares,
Mr. Hassler says, for example, "In some cases, as a breeder with a very nice mare, you may want to look outside the box..."

What the heck is a "very nice mare" and how many breeders know--really KNOW--they have one? That's TWO questions, BTW. Sorry, folks, but I get edgy when an article is written for only an elite fraction of the populace without even an offhand acknowledgement or passing mention that there are other folks out there who are also worthy of some consideration, such as guidance on how to assess a crossbred mare or TB contributions.

Very insightful post, P... I don't mean to offend anybody here, but Ithink we're still dealing with a lack of education here in the states, and, quite frankly, show me where our bloodlines are consolidated in any way.

Is it the 15-20 Sandro Hits FOALS that are products of our breeding? Another what, 15 or less reproducing Sandro Hit mares in our gene pool? Is it the 50 or so reproducing animals directly sired by the biggies...Donnerhall, Jazz, Rubinstein or Weltmeyer? Maybe another 50-100 that are grandsired by the same and actively reproducing? I don't see any type of consolidation in the same way that it occurs in Europe, where more farms, more mares and more foals actually make an impact that could be called a trend. Let's see the actual numbers-- how many direct sons are standing in the USA? How many grandsons? How many direct daughters... how many foals are they actually producing?

With very few exceptions, the majority of the reproducing mares in this country are already outcrossed. Most of the stallions were, too, until 5 or 6 years ago. The TB outcrossing in our mare base is huge, and should be used to our advantage. The foundation stallions in this country, such as Pointmaker and Diamont, are competely outcrossed to the big bloodlines. Well promoted stallions such as Feiner Stern are also outcrossed, another well promated stallion, Routinier a son to Rubinstein I,is then making granddaughters to that bloodline being bred for great-granddaughters or sons. Riverman, Balta Czar, Ideaal... nothing close up there, either. This doesn't worry me too much as being too consolidated. Show me where the problem is on our side of the ocean?

So, so what if we bring in the popular bloodlines via frozen semen and sons or grandsons standing at stud? There's a reason why these bloodlines are popular. The trick is to choose a good nick, and that comes with more education. I'm all for that!

eurofoal

Nov. 1, 2007, 12:10 PM

Like I have been saying, soon we will see nothing but Sandrodonnerubinmeyers. ;)

or Weltsteinhithalls. Maybe a few Rubinhallsandrowelts, and we will cross them all together.

SAVE THE G-LINE!!!

Fairview, I always respect your knowledge, so tell me if that was just lighthearted speculation or a real problem here. Are there any horses in the USA and Canada with all 4 bloodlines. How many are there? I know at least one stallion with 3 of the 4, but not a single one with all 4 bloodlines. Are there any standing here in North America?

I don't think it's a huge problem, because every generation is then diluted (and prob the traits that go along with it!). Wouldn't it be that the closest they could be would be one parent (sire) and 2 (both) grandsires, and one great grandsire? That would make one bloodline as a direct parent, 2 in the second generation, and one in the third. So, to breed them together, you'd then get the whole shebang one more generation back. Unless, as Fairview said, we're breeding them to each other. However, I just don't see enough of those particular bloodlines in any one individual horse, or even any individual breeding program, or, for that matter, all the horses being bred here in the USA, to agree with this as a looming problem.

A horse like Winterprinz (a fine stallion, in my opinion) is inbred several times to World Cup, both on the top and and the bottom of the pedigree. In my opinion, this can be an impressive choice for someone who wants to consolidate that W line and its traits. It might not be for everybody, but, it's a good example of a consolidated line that's offered here in the USA.

So, can we then agree and say that there are virtues to both hybrid vigor (outcrossing) and consolidation (inbreeding), and that each have a place in the production of any true to type reproduction program?

Fairview Horse Center

Nov. 1, 2007, 12:32 PM

I don't think we (US) are in the same boat that Europe, or actually Germany is, YET. But they are leading down that path. Our old blood, and the TBs may very well be what saves us, and propells us to the front of Sporthorse breeding in the future, but yes it may take people thinking outside the box. Get that Gold Luck son approved, and keep his daughters in the breeding pool.

fannie mae

Nov. 1, 2007, 12:45 PM

Several more points from TB breeding.

TBs recognize a big difference between sires of sires and great damsires. The stallions whose daughters produce winners are as valued (or more valued) in the long term than sires who produce sons that can perform.

terrific point you are making and great post!

being german i have no insight to the US t.b. breed and how it does influence the US w.b. breeding. i only just started to look into the german (european) t.b. breeding myself when i was looking for a (hopefully) fitting t.b. mare to add to my personal w.b. breeding program.

but one thing becomes obvious immediately when dealing with sucesful racehorses and their breed:
damline.
they do identify via damline in a way no other breed does. you can easily track any t.b. overhere down to its female roots prior to WWI and even further, as they all go back to those famous three foundation stallions back in the 16th(!) century:
darley arabian, godolphin arabian and byerley turk.

so apart from being idealistic enough to introduce t.b. blood via a mare (which involves the greatest risk of all as there is basically ZERO empirical knowlegde given about how any t.b. mare might do when being bred to w.b. - as opposed to using a somewhat "proven" t.b. stallions overhere who might have left his footprint occasionally even in w.b. breeding...)
i started researching t.b. stallions influence in w.b. breeding and guess what - ?
even that took my right back to damlines...

there was big t.b. show held in october here in muenster and it's goal was to bridge the mental and reasonable misunderstandings between both breeder groups, t.b. and w.b. - in order to educate w.b. breeders and to provide for a certain understanding where the (german) t.b. breed stands right now and how to make use of it within w.b. breed at it's best.

the german race horse society took any effort introducing derby winners and their respective get and various mares who might be of accomplishment to the w.b. breed. they also offered various t.b. stallions for the w.b. breed and all of the w.b. associations immediatly agreed to accept (license) any of these stallions given a minimum weight (kilos they are supposed to carry in the races) was provided over certain distances.
the most interesting part was seeing these stallions mares and foals and learning about their damline...
as it was immediately obvious that it was no coincident that most of the stallions found
within the presented damlines were exactly those t.b. stallions who had left their footprint succesfully within the w.b. breed in the past:
the line of tamerlane/shogun/marlon/alpenkönig, surumu/literat/birkhan, kaiseradler/kaiserwürde and all of her k-named sons having been used in the past in the german w.b. breed, königsstuhl/dschingis kahn/tamerlane (here we are again - tamerlane!), windwurf/kaiseradler (again: the k-line), tudor melody/tudor minstrel (line of lauries crusador) - it was all there and it was so obvious that there was a reason for certain damlines to have provided for exactly those stallions who are well known even in the w.b. breed...

it was a more than valuable experience, the show took a full day and it was the second of its kind being held in associatoin with w.b. breeders - they are planning on making it a regular yearly event and i can only back that afford from the bottom of my heart!

as our w.b.breed will end up nowhere in the long run if it wasn't for the necessary and continous influence of t.b. gens every few generations...

but where do we start?
as a lauries crusador can't make it all and as much as i appreciate the effort the hannoverian verband takes by bravely licensing his sons at every licensing the entire breed will need more than just one proven t.b. heritage transferer...

and having talked about damlines before and this topic having turned into a damline-focus-topic one thing is clear:
these a.m. various LC sons (roughly 40 by now) might not become super star sires themselves - but they will be used by the breeders sustainably and as such (given all of them arise from proven traditional hannoverian damline crosses) leave their stamp again in the breed - via those respective future damlines, that is.
and that sure is a good thing to happen.

but what does it take to identify another, future lauries crusador?
and reading the various posts in this topic this seems to be exactly the question urging breeders here and there, on both sides of the pond...

again, i can only speak for the european (german) t.b. influence and the first thing you learn:
short distant runners (quarters?) are not the one's providing for the desired influence in w.b.breed - people are focusing on long distant runners and -even more so- stallions arising from long distant damlines...
shoulder/neckset, but more importantly, the exterieur formation of the hindend of these horses differ greatly with respect to their (consolidated) genepoole and having seen a few in one place you can tell their descend from "miler" rather than "quarter" families (hope i described that correctly).

and what struck me most is exactly what vineyridge quoted:

"The stallions whose daughters produce winners are as valued (or more valued) in the long term than sires who produce sons that can perform"

as there are titles for a stallion to gain in the t.b. breed as there are in any other w.b. breed and stallions being labled "champions" for whatever reason - but the REAL superstars are the ones who finally are being labled as "champion of the damsires" - as that is a title for a stallion to gain only after years and years of breeding and succesful reproduction - as it takes a few generations to pass by in order to recognize if any given stallion really deserves that lable...

and this takes us right back to the focus of the damline and the value it deserves - and i think here we can only learn from the concept of t.b. breeding worldwide (as i would assume it is the same in the US) as any given stallion (specially in t.b.) becomes forgotten pretty soon unless he doesn't reproduce with lasting impact via damlines - as it is the mare and the mare again who identifies herself via her most individual damline who leaves the lasting stamp in any given horse...

Tiki

Nov. 1, 2007, 01:26 PM

All of my foundation TB mares come from distance lines - the old 'chef' lines who produced the great distance horse. They have all essentially been proven to produce successful Sport Horses as well. Do they cross well with WB's? Mine do! The F1 crosses have produced Premium Foals. Those foals have gone on to be successful in the Mare Performance Tests and to also produce Premium Foals.

Peter Birdsall has researched, and published, extensively on the TB lines that are successful. I have several of his books and can trace my mares for generations and I can see a couple of generations of THEIR produce in my yard.

I wouldn't have a sprinter TB on my property!!! Any of them that I have seen, bought as cheap race track rejects, have either scored very, very low at their mare inspections and/or been refused breeding approval entirely.

When I bought them, I may not have known how they would cross with WB's, but I could certainly research their bloodlines and their 'relatives' sport products and get a good prediction of what I would get. All my mares have been inspected and approved, some with pretty good scores, but their offspring, and their offspring's offspring have justified my choices. For example, a Site Champion at his inspection and highest scoring colt for his registry that year, a Reserve Champion, and many Premium Foals, grown up to show or pass their MPT.

OK, so I crossed one with a Donnerhall/Rubinstein/Bolero - 3 times - 3 Premiums. Now that D/R/B is pretty dilute. They MAY someday go to a Sandro Hit son or grandson, or a SH Weltmeyer. They I'll have a R/W/D/B/SH offspring, but it will all be pretty darn far back!!

pwynnnorman

Nov. 1, 2007, 01:27 PM

as there are titles for a stallion to gain in the t.b. breed as there are in any other w.b. breed and stallions being labled "champions" for whatever reason - but the REAL superstars are the ones who finally are being labled as "champion of the damsires" - as that is a title for a stallion to gain only after years and years of breeding and succesful reproduction - as it takes a few generations to pass by in order to recognize if any given stallion really deserves that lable...

Leading Broodmare Sires is a list that is maintained and published each month. But while the process and philosophy may be similar to sporthorse breeding, the results are not necessarily so (and I'm not sure that's what anyone is implying) in terms of TB broodmare sires who'd be good to incorporate in a sporthorse breeding program.

I do wonder, though, if anyone knows what type of sire currently dominates the broodmare sires list: sprinter or stayer (if the latter is even a relevant term in racing any more?).

I think jump is easy enough to identify in TB lines, don't y'all? The challenge is movement. I enjoyed the discussion of Courageous Comet's sire, for example. But there just aren't that many TBs performing out there who can move like Courageous Comet, making it that much more difficult to figure out how they came to be and whether they can be reproduced.

The only two I can think of because of their successes in hunter pedigrees--but that could be an entirely different kind of movement, alas--are Jones Hall and Sir Thomson. Raja Baba certainly has produced a lot of sons and daughters whose offspring have done awfully well in sport, but there's no way of knowing his influence on movement.

ise@ssl

Nov. 1, 2007, 01:47 PM

With the TB's - my personal opinion it really comes down to the shoulder. The sprinters are very often too straight and very often built downhill. Won't go there. Argentina has some of our best old distance TB lines still going. They don't churn and burn in racing down there as much as we do here now - i.e. sprint races= more races=more betting= more dough. Holding the horses longer to let them develop - as was done for some of the distance horses isn't what most of the hands off owners want to do. JMHO

Shame - there are some fabulous TB lines that do very very well crossing on WB's. We saw it over and over again in our foals who went on to be very good performance horses.

vineyridge

Nov. 1, 2007, 03:18 PM

Want to find true stayers? Go to France.

I certainly agree about South America, although oddly enough, the last research I did indicated that Brazil had more of a reservoir of the old lines than Argentina. The races may be longer in Argentina, but the bloodlines have become the "hot" North American ones. Peru and Chile are backwaters with survivals. Uruguay is more like Argentina.

Dirt sprints just shouldn't be the be all and end all of US TB racing. But as the "Hot" lines like Mr. P and Northern Dancer (and their crosses) are more and more diluted by time, the offspring should be capable at greater distances. Since the TB is a closed book, theoretically it should be possible to restore any characteristic that existed in TB lines in the past that have bred on.

Fannie Mae, you'll love this.

Every single gray TB existing today traces to a single sire in 1700. There were many other gray lines in the beginning, but they all died out as gray producers except for that one. It only took 111 years for the other gray lines to lose their gray.

ise@ssl

Nov. 1, 2007, 04:28 PM

Viney Ridge - I couldn't agree with you more about the French TB. MY BEST TB mare (now 24) that produced 6 spectacular foals has a shoulder to die for. And big movement. I wanted her the first time I saw her at a friend's TB farm and they finally relented and sold her to me. She's mostly French lines on the top and a good dose of Teddy and other great distance lines on both top and bottom.

Donella

Nov. 1, 2007, 04:44 PM

Ok, well too many posts for me to get through right now. I will ad my two cents:
I personally don't think the problem lies in using "stallions of the moment" too often (yeah ok, not ideal if the mare isn't well suited, but in general, not really the problem). The problem in America is that , in general, we don't have the mare base. People oogle over stallions and generally downplay the importance of the mare. For example, everyone wants to use their OTTB to produce a wb because it's cheaper, in general than buying one or buying a wb mare (IN GENERAL OK). Most TB's arent suitable for that at the level of performance that Mr Hassler is talking about (dressage in particular). Dont get me wrong, the exceptional tb that is built for high level dressage is a real gem and I LOVE that kind of blood..but I am still talking in general ok. We have registries that want to include every breed, to make sure nobody's feelings are hurt..to do it the American way. In most cases, and I really don't mean this to be offensive, but the mare base isn't there because we keep wanting to do it our way with horses that are NOT dressage/jumping breeds.

You can breed such a mare to whatever world class stallion, but you are being unrealistic to think that your chances of producing something exceptional are even close to what they would be if you had GOOD wb or exceptional tb mares. That is just GENETICS. People are WAY too personal about breeding here, we cannot take criticism, we want to include everyone and not hurt anyones feelings, we just want one big happy melting pot and I just don't think that mentality is productive. All the most successful breed registries in the world are the most selective. Enought said.

Again, please note, I do not mean to be negative about tb's. God knows they are wonderful althletes, but again, not many are built to produce dressage horses. I think most of us can agree on this?

Here is an interesting article that I found recently that deals with sort of the same thing: http://eurobreederstour.com/The%20Architects%20of%20the%20Dressage%20Horse.pdf

talloaks

Nov. 1, 2007, 05:22 PM

Here is an interesting article that I found recently that deals with sort of the same thing: http://eurobreederstour.com/The%20Architects%20of%20the%20Dressage%20Horse.pdf

Thanks Donella, for this great link!!:)

YankeeLawyer

Nov. 1, 2007, 07:09 PM

Very insightful post, P... I don't mean to offend anybody here, but Ithink we're still dealing with a lack of education here in the states, and, quite frankly, show me where our bloodlines are consolidated in any way.

Is it the 15-20 Sandro Hits FOALS that are products of our breeding? Another what, 15 or less reproducing Sandro Hit mares in our gene pool? Is it the 50 or so reproducing animals directly sired by the biggies...Donnerhall, Jazz, Rubinstein or Weltmeyer? Maybe another 50-100 that are grandsired by the same and actively reproducing? I don't see any type of consolidation in the same way that it occurs in Europe, where more farms, more mares and more foals actually make an impact that could be called a trend. Let's see the actual numbers-- how many direct sons are standing in the USA? How many grandsons? How many direct daughters... how many foals are they actually producing?

With very few exceptions, the majority of the reproducing mares in this country are already outcrossed. Most of the stallions were, too, until 5 or 6 years ago. The TB outcrossing in our mare base is huge, and should be used to our advantage. The foundation stallions in this country, such as Pointmaker and Diamont, are competely outcrossed to the big bloodlines. Well promoted stallions such as Feiner Stern are also outcrossed, another well promated stallion, Routinier a son to Rubinstein I,is then making granddaughters to that bloodline being bred for great-granddaughters or sons. Riverman, Balta Czar, Ideaal... nothing close up there, either. This doesn't worry me too much as being too consolidated. Show me where the problem is on our side of the ocean?

So, so what if we bring in the popular bloodlines via frozen semen and sons or grandsons standing at stud? There's a reason why these bloodlines are popular. The trick is to choose a good nick, and that comes with more education. I'm all for that!

Ditto Pwynn and Eurofoal. I had typed out a similar lengthy post but deleted it for fear of getting flamed.

I happen to own a Sandro Hit x Donnerhall mare. I bought her to breed but frankly I love riding her so much that if she never produces a foal I won't really care (she is, however, booked to Rousseau for 2008). SH and Donnerhall are two stallions that obviously appear a lot in pedigrees -- in Germany -- and to a degree, can be found in the US. But I had to import my mare because I could not find an SH x Donnerhall here. Seriously, try finding one, at any price. It is hard to find any SH mare or filly here, and forget finding a Donnerhall daughter, though you might find a granddaughter.

And just because a small group of WB breeders, for example, COTHers, publicize that they are breeding to X or Y hot stallion is not representative of all WB breeders, let alone all sporthorse breeders in general.

Further, even as to those WB breeders who may choose a particularly popular stallion for their mare, I seriously doubt they are typically doing so without careful consideration of whether that particular stallion suits their particular mare. Who wants to tie up their mare for 11 months plus time to wean, put the mare at risk, and potentially spend a whole lot of money to put a foal on the ground that is the product of ill-considered breeding? It makes no sense, and is really condescending and patronizing to suggest that that is how breeders operate.

Regarding the importance of damlines, I don't think anyone is suggesting that these are per se *more* important than the sire lines. However, they clearly are at least equally important (genetically they are equal, plus arguably the mare charged with raising her foal imparts some additional influence on character), and I think the message is that people should not disregard the mare in the breeding equation. Also, because theoretically many can breed to the same popular stallion, the distinguishing factor among the resulting foals might be their respective damlines (in other words, among 500 Sandro Hit foals, theoretically the better ones would come from better mares, or at least ones that represent a good nick). Accordingly, to increase the odds of producing an exceptional foal, ideally you would breed only the top mares to exceptional stallions that compliment them.

That said, I do get irritated when people say simply to breed the top mares, because I think that provides exactly 0 guidance. I can, for example, choose to only breed Elite mares, from proven damlines of only Elite mares, to stallions with exceptional attributes and a performance record. But even with all of that, and even if Ms. Super Mare is a champion at Grand Prix herself, does not mean the foals in fact will be exceptional. Breeding is obviously not a perfect science, and the only way to identify the top producers is to figure out which ones are producing the best foals. A breeding animal's pedigree and even its performance success, if any, are only predictors of its ability to put the same on the ground. The only true proof of its value as a breeding animal, though, is the quality of its progeny.

In addition, I don't think that very many people actually fail to consider the importance of the mare, but frankly people do what their means allow, and breeding to a "name" stallion requires much less of a financial investment than purchasing a top broodmare in most instances.

Finally, I sometimes think people are being silly and need to identify what it is they are trying to produce before getting all fired up about whether they have chosen the perfect nick for their horse. Is everyone seriously trying to produce the next Olympic champion? Because even if so, papers alone obviously are not going to get you there.

YankeeLawyer

Nov. 1, 2007, 07:15 PM

Get that Gold Luck son approved, and keep his daughters in the breeding pool.

There are a number of Gold Luck offspring in this part of the country. They are very lovely, but I hardly think they are rare.

YankeeLawyer

Nov. 1, 2007, 07:17 PM

I do wonder, though, if anyone knows what type of sire currently dominates the broodmare sires list: sprinter or stayer (if the latter is even a relevant term in racing any more?).
.

My understanding was that it was the distance TBs, and in particular the Turf ones, that are more desirable in sporthorse pedigrees. Sprinters, among other things, typically are heavy in front, built downhill, and very light behind.

patch work farm

Nov. 1, 2007, 07:20 PM

I might be in danger of flames, but I guess I can take it. I have to agree with Donella and I have said it many times myself. I don't think it is as true an industry here in the states because of the emotions vs. Europe (and that in Europe, the industry is funded instead of how we handle it here).

As far as the TB breeding vs WB, in US vs Europe, it has always been thought that most of the mare base here in the US is TB therefore, the stallion is the WB. The difference is using a TB stallion in Europe with a WB mare. We want the same result but don't understand why we don't necessarily produce it.

One note, since this thread seems to have gone so offtrack, I have recently ridden with Scott in a few clinics and for anyone who hasn't ridden with him, you don't know what you are missing! My very gracious trainer (of 15 years) thought it was a great idea and was extremely supportive. My first lesson was absolutely amazing and the crowd that was watching was also surprised at how we began vs how we ended our lesson. The second time I rode with him, there were not nearly as many light bulb moments, nor was it as dramatic as the first time, but still the thrill of a lifetime. He is very generous, kind, funny, can spot weaknesses like a hawk and help you work through those issues without making you feel awkward. I am looking forward to riding with him more in the future. He may be the young horse guru but he can also teach the "old gray haired old ladies a few things too". I watched him go through the process of working with young horses at Hilltop as well as in coaching sessions at shows and he is always so supportive of everyone he works with.

I have known Susanne and Scott for many years, as a matter of fact, I spent one Sunday afternoon on the phone with Susanne asking her which stallions would compliment my mares, she was not afraid to point out weaknesses that might come from a certain stallion or what might not be the best cross for them or my mares. It was very gracious of her (especially on a Sunday)since I ended up not breeding any of my mares to Hilltop stallions until several years later. They are very giving individuals and they have my utmost respect. I watched them at Devon this year and it must be very difficult to run a business when everytime you try to walk through the show grounds, someone is running up trying to carry on a conversation, get advice or just say hello (as I did too) but they conduct themselves in the most professional manner even when someone is trying to get their attention when they are trying to bring a horse into the ring. I mentioned to Scott a couple of years ago that there was some thread about him and he laughed and said, "you worry when they're not talking about you".

I have not read the article that was referenced, shame on me for that, but we all know the media doesn't always include all information presented and maybe some of the information that might have been of more interest to some, was not included?? I also think that we are all at different levels in our breeding situations (from newbie to very experienced) and that, in itself is very different to address in one article without losing the newbies or making the experienced feel like they are being talked down to. Frankly, in all of my years of experience, I find that no matter how many people ask my advice, they go do their own thing anyway...

YankeeLawyer

Nov. 1, 2007, 07:23 PM

I can tell you first hand that Scott has (at least in my situation) set aside his personal business interests when giving me advice. I have worked with Scott and Susanne for several years getting suggestions from them to offset several of my mares to make good (hopefully great!!) riding horses with excellent temperaments, good trainability, athletism, yada-yada-yada. Never have they pushed "their" stallions on me, whether at Hilltop or at Hassler Dressage. Quite the contrary. I recently questioned Scott about using a specific stallion he respresents for a heavier, more old fashioned mare we have and he was quite candid and honest in his response that it would not be a good match and explained why in detail. He suggested several other stallions to consider that he does not have connections with (to my knowledge). I honestly believe the Hasslers are passionate about breeding sport horses correct for the needs of the rider/breeder/whomever their audience is, regardless of whether the stallion choice is one of theirs.

Ditto; that is my experience with them as well.

PineTreeFarm

Nov. 1, 2007, 07:37 PM

I have not read the article that was referenced, shame on me for that, but we all know the media doesn't always include all information presented and maybe some of the information that might have been of more interest to some, was not included?? .

He was the author of the article, it wasn't an interview situation. He wrote it as a columnist for COTH.
Here's another quote:
"When we look at the upper end of the sport—which isn’t always the end to study but that’s certainly a major part of the whole picture—we have the Grand Prix riders. Many upper level riders don’t care about the breeding of the horse; they only care how the horse is to ride."

It's an interesting article, no matter if you agree or disagree with his position.

pwynnnorman

Nov. 1, 2007, 08:07 PM

Patch work farm, I just want to make clear that neither I, nor anyone else as far as I can tell, offered up any criticism of the man himself, his training or his philosophies. I was addressing nothing more than the article itself--and I sincerely look forward to hearing his take on the TB/crossbred situation in this country, some day.

Actually, that said, I guess I don't really understand Mr. Hassler in terms of where the article came from. I'm probably forgetting some details, but I don't recall what he said was he goal (of the breeding programs he was targeting with advice). Who was his target audience? I think we've assumed it was dressage only--or was it? A lot of what he stated could be applied to any program, certainly, but...well, come to think of it, it's probably less than fair to criticize without really understanding who he was addressing and what assumptions he had to make.

Say, who do y'all suppose would be a good person to write a comparable article focusing on producing jumpers?

vineyridge

Nov. 1, 2007, 09:07 PM

Say, who do y'all suppose would be a good person to write a comparable article focusing on producing jumpers?

In America, it would have to be Cheryll Frank. She's devoted her whole life to that.

Pwynn, your point about finding movement in TBs is a very good one. But are you looking for dressage movement, jumper movement, or what. I believe it's been established that the dressage shoulder and the jumper shoulder are considerably different, and that has to affect movement. Plus, to go into the eventing realm, a horse who is bred to run and jump probably will not come anywhere dressage movement no matter how much training he/she gets--without a miracle.

That's why it's so absurd to demand "real" dressage of event horses. All it does is turn dressage horses into not so happy XC horses, since stadium is just dressage with jumps. JMHO.

YankeeLawyer

Nov. 1, 2007, 10:51 PM

I believe it's been established that the dressage shoulder and the jumper shoulder are considerably different, and that has to affect movement. .

If that is correct, then why do so many of the internationally competitive GP dressage horses come from predominately upper level jumper lines? Or are these horses the washouts of the jumper world (I don't think so, as some truly great athletes have been competitive at the GP level in both disciplines). I wonder what the shoulders of the dually-talented horses look like; I hadn't really thought about it.

tri

Nov. 1, 2007, 11:13 PM

Well, there is a difference in true quality gaits that both top dressage horses have and top jumpers have.....and there is a difference in the over blown "auction" trot that is so popular and is too often rewarded at inspection time.

I agree with Pwynn, however. In this country, sporthorse breeding mostly includes a TB. If we look at most of the american bred horses that have made it to int'l competition, almost all have a TB parent.

What makes it even harder here is that most of the "organized" warmblood breeding that is going on in this country, is with foreign owned/controlled registries that have little interest in developing our mare lines, establishing information on our mare lines, publishing/marketing our blue hen mares, recognizing niches in our mare lines, etc. Those registries are very in to their own home country's mare lines and how to export them to other countries such as....the United States!! And american wb breeders have spent an inordinate amount of time memorizing those countries great mare lines with little thought or interest in our own.

Donella

Nov. 2, 2007, 01:44 AM

Yankee, excellent post!
It is so true..really, just how many people in this country own direct daughters of the big movers/shakers ? Truly consider this! I would lop off my left arm for a direct daughter of Rubinstein, Hohenstien, Sandro Hit, Donnerhall, Caprimond ect. They are few and far between..I will second that!!! We NEED more of that if anything!.

If we want to produce something of truly top caliber (in the sense that scott Hassler is talking about) we need to look at how it is being done, and with what. And we need to get over the "we can do it better a different way" mentality. The system they have going on has been centuries in the making and the biggest discernable difference that I can see is the mare base. It is foolish and laughable to think we can just throw whatever breed into the mix and voila..look out europeans! Kind of the same reason we'd laugh if the Germans tried to rise to the top in reining on their wb's, with a splash of qh in there. Why try to fix something that isn't broken!

The situations with stallions here is better though, forsue. I have been mulling over frozen semen choices for my Hano mares and yet I do keep going back to some of the stallions available here. There are some real top class stallions here.

I still really strongly beleive a main problem is still the criticism part. We all want to think our mares are great. If we didnt, we wouldnt have them or breed them, but we all have different ideas of what constitutes quality. But to be successful, like the europeans, we need to be more objective! They are quality mares when someone truly qualified says so (not just when you say so), or if they have outproduced themselves on a major level. Usually a mares quality is strongly related to her chances of throwing that though and we all know this. That is why inspections that are judged by truly knowledgable people are a hugely important aspect of breed improvement.

Kyla

DownYonder

Nov. 2, 2007, 06:36 AM

so apart from being idealistic enough to introduce t.b. blood via a mare (which involves the greatest risk of all as there is basically ZERO empirical knowlegde given about how any t.b. mare might do when being bred to w.b. - as opposed to using a somewhat "proven" t.b. stallions overhere who might have left his footprint occasionally even in w.b. breeding...)

Fannie Mae, that was another really super post, and very fascinating to read. I was especially struck by the above statement. We have been struggling here for so long to explain why it is usually preferable to introduce TB blood via the sireline versus the damline, and this statement encapsulates it nicely. Having actual foals on the ground from WB-approved TB sires does provide some empirical evidence of what those sires can bring to the table, but as you said - it is very difficult to know what a TB mare can bring to the table, without breeding her time and time and time again to various stallions. Essentially, it is an "experiment", and it takes many years before you have enough of a sampling to make a call on whether it was a good match or not. Using an approved TB sire who has been used or will be used on a group of mares gives you that sampling much faster - it's a more efficient way to add the TB blood and determine if that TB sire is making a desired contribution.

Heyday

Nov. 2, 2007, 07:21 AM

My understanding is that genes are held in more "solidly" in mares then in sires because the mare is said to contribute more then 50% of the foal...

I find that my mares give about 70% to my foals. That number came from Susanne Hassler as well. If you don't find a stallion which will correct "stamp" something your mare lacks you 'will' end up with what your mare has. So, you'd better find that 'corrective stamp' in your stallion of choice.

Also, I am not mommy warbucks so breeding to those stallions from Blue Hors is almost not an option at this point. You get three straws in a dose for 2500 & no contract. So unless you have lots of cash and a wand waiving vet it is not an option. It may take three times which will cost you 7500 in semen fees not to mention vet bills and worries. Oh ya, how much is Botox to rid the wrinkles from all the stress?

I wish the Hasslers would bring several new stallions over. They are WONDERFUL people!!!! They are the reason I am a breeder.

pwynnnorman

Nov. 2, 2007, 07:43 AM

If we want to produce something of truly top caliber (in the sense that scott Hassler is talking about) we need to look at how it is being done, and with what.

Brilliantly and succinctly put, Donella! There's his NEXT article.

And y'know what I'd want to see him consider in it? What stallion(s) or type of stallion(s) would he consider good crosses for a sporthorse-suitable TB mare? Oh! And, of course!, what traits would he consider would MAKE a TB mare suitable for a breeding program whose goal was...what?

Albeit, Donella said "top caliber," but is that realistic here, given the European standards and biases? (I mean, if riders have to compete abroad to gain respect before getting respectable scores, imagine the difficulty of a non-European type--like that Iberian stallion out there now--gaining enough respect to be considered "top caliber". Forget it!) So how about producing marketable babies who can move up the levels, even if not be euro-standard-bias "competitive" at the very top? (I think the latter trait is super important to recognize: How many, realistically speaking, are trying to breed an Olympic caliber animal after all? So address the majority's situation, rather than the minority's one, right?)

Oldenburg Mom

Nov. 2, 2007, 07:55 AM

Heyday,

Loved your post. If you know any wand-waiving vets would you please introduce me. Especially since Monday is the big day I find out whether or not my Rubinstein girl is still in foal.

Would everyone please do the fertility-stay-in-foal-dance for me sometime over the weekend? A few heartfelt beseeching prayers wouldn't go amiss either... :lol:

As far as breeding objectives, for me it's simple: I aim for the top, but with temperament being the most important trait. So far, what I've been blessed with (as both foals are healthy) are two completely different styles of babies. Now, that doesn't bother me as one was bred for dressage and the other for the hunter/jumper market. BUT, both have a *superb* temperament, which for me right now, is the most important thing. I also have to breed within my budget, which of course all of us have to do, but additionally, I'm trying to promote a stallion. Those are my variables, yours will be different.

Of course, what I HOPE for is that one that, like pwynnnorman, will go to the top. And not for the cash, nor the publicity. But for the quiet, down-deep inside satisfaction that I contributed a mote of excellence to a tradition much bigger than myself.

It will probably never happen, but that doesn't mean I don't try. :D It's the journey and the trying that are important ... and breeding sure is trying!!!

Albeit, Donella said "top caliber," but is that realistic here, given the European standards and biases? Well, I think it's pretty realistic, Wynn. Especially since you've done it ... and with a tb/arab/shetland mix. ;) Gotta loff Wynn & Teddy, no matter who you are! :yes: :yes: :yes:

Heyday

Nov. 2, 2007, 08:57 AM

[quote=Oldenburg Mom;2776438]Heyday,

Loved your post. If you know any wand-waiving vets would you please introduce me. Especially since Monday is the big day I find out whether or not my Rubinstein girl is still in foal.

Thanks Oldenburg Mom-
Good luck and I will waive my wand from here :-)

I must add one more thing:
I know bloodlines are what people are so caught up in but we don't ride a registration paper. We ride the horse! I breed for genetically sound, ridability and big moving horses. And one more thing - NO LINEBREEDING!

Oldenburg Mom

Nov. 2, 2007, 09:15 AM

I know bloodlines are what people are so caught up in but we don't ride a registration paper. We ride the horse! I breed for genetically sound, ridability and big moving horses. And one more thing - NO LINEBREEDING!

Oh my! Well, I think, in a manner of speaking, one DOES ride the papers, but I'm not going to start that discussion...that's another thread entirely!!!!

And why no linebreeding?

Heyday

Nov. 2, 2007, 09:32 AM

Well, I grew up with a friend who bred Arabians and I saw nothing but bad suff there with linebreeding. So I guess that is just something I personally stay away from... Bad first impressions..

I just think a lot of people are about names. And I personally have seen several from top stallions produce - nice - but not exceptional offspring. So I try to be realistic about names and look more at the horse first AND then names.... Obviously I would like to have the "names" as a seller because buyers like the name toss game. But there have been a few 'no name' horses that have gone all the way. I frequent the auctions in Europe (online). I look at the videos first and then the names. I am often surprised as some of them are by stallions I've never heard of and they are quite exceptional.

That was all I was trying to say.

tri

Nov. 2, 2007, 09:42 AM

"I still really strongly beleive a main problem is still the criticism part. We all want to think our mares are great. If we didnt, we wouldnt have them or breed them, but we all have different ideas of what constitutes quality. But to be successful, like the europeans, we need to be more objective! They are quality mares when someone truly qualified says so (not just when you say so), or if they have outproduced themselves on a major level. Usually a mares quality is strongly related to her chances of throwing that though and we all know this. That is why inspections that are judged by truly knowledgable people are a hugely important aspect of breed improvement."

But that is the problem. Breeders need to define what it means to "outproduce themselves". Too many breeders here in the U.S. think getting a good inspection score as a foal means the mare is producing. To me, it doesn't. A lot of breeders here say they want to follow the euro system and all they are doing is presenting foals, trotting them around the triangle, getting a score and say they are doing it the european way. Well, in Europe, getting foals inspected is a tweeny, weeny part of the "system" and is considered probably one of the least important parts of the "system".

To get the breadth that they have in europe, you have to breed the mare to the same stallion several times, getting full siblings. Most of those go into sport, the best one goes into the breeding shed. The one in the breeding shed's "quality" is supported by the success of her full siblings in the show ring. In marketing the resulting foals, the breeder can point to the full siblings of the foal's dam as proof of the quality of the breeding program. Without superior performance results, no breeder has any claim to "quality". In the face of failure in the show ring, kind comments from an inspection jury when the mare was a foal mean little to nothing. Few breeders in this country have that kind of mindset with breeding while it is more the norm in europe.

ise@ssl

Nov. 2, 2007, 10:08 AM

I can't see where anyone here was posting comments that were personal about the author. The content of the article was the focus. And having now read the entire article, I do agree with other posts here that it failed to state the primary focus and whether or not it was discpline specific or just general statements. From a content standpoint it seemed to ramble and too many sentence paragraphs that jumped back and forth.

While the observation about high caliber - i.e. Grand Prix horses was raised, it failed to identify the fact that MOST U.S. Grand Prix (ranked) riders are NOT riding horses that were trained from the bottom up by those riders. There is still this reliance on horses "started" (mostly in Europe) with a solid training foundation. The sporthorse breeding efforts in the United States are almost on par with Europe which is incredible considering the time frame but the training deficiencies are the big reason why we are not seeing more "homebreds" at the top levels. Breeding some of the same top lines that are the "rave" in Europe requires RIDERS - especially those starting these youngsters with skills on par with Europe. While there are some in the U.S. - relative to the number of sporthorses being bred - it's very very few. I have not seen this huge increase in Young Horse Trainers that should have come from that program. And if nothing else - we lack a Directory of those trainers to refer to when seeking out where to send youngsters. Most of us can write HUGE directories of those that advertised as young horse trainers but ended up being horror stories.

Also, I don't believe most breeders who are at this for more than at least one decade are just breeding horses to trot well on the triangle. That really is not fair. We don't breed horses for "in-hand" competition - we breed them to be athletes that can be competitive, healthy and correct. I don't know many other breeders who "hang-in" for years that are NOT focused on future performance.

Tiki

Nov. 2, 2007, 10:43 AM

Most of us can write HUGE directories of those that advertised as young horse trainers but ended up being horror stories. Oh yeah!!!!!

pwynnnorman

Nov. 2, 2007, 10:52 AM

Oh yeah!!!!!

Licensing, please!

Oldenburg Mom

Nov. 2, 2007, 11:13 AM

They are quality mares when someone truly qualified says so (not just when you say so),

Isn't that the purpose of competition, foal inspections AND mare inspections/tests? Doesn't that give one the opinion...? I mean, for example, the Selle Francais inspector came to the US ... he is a breeder, he is on the stallion committee, and to the best of my knowledge also judges at the foal shows in France. If he does all this, ... is this just ...??? meaningless? I think the SF are particularly strict: only 5% of ALL FOALS are awarded elite.

I go back to what I said previously: actually, the untimate judge is competition. Period.

DownYonder

Nov. 2, 2007, 01:39 PM

Centerline Farm

Nov. 2, 2007, 04:35 PM

Fairview, I always respect your knowledge, so tell me if that was just lighthearted speculation or a real problem here. Are there any horses in the USA and Canada with all 4 bloodlines. How many are there? I know at least one stallion with 3 of the 4, but not a single one with all 4 bloodlines. Are there any standing here in North America?

Well, I actually own a Weltmeyer (Vosmaer) daughter, and bred her twice to Rubignon (rubinstein/donnerhall) and got two fillies, and now the older filly is in foal to Sagnol (sandro hit/landadel)

So if this is a filly, where should I go now??!!

This foal will be the ultimate Weltvosrubindonnersandrodel !!! In fact, maybe that will be its registered name! Good idea.

Walnut Farm

Nov. 2, 2007, 04:52 PM

Centerline Farm, there is always Londonderry :) or Brentano II

Linda

Donella

Nov. 2, 2007, 06:49 PM

But that is the problem. Breeders need to define what it means to "outproduce themselves". Too many breeders here in the U.S. think getting a good inspection score as a foal means the mare is producing. To me, it doesn't. A lot of breeders here say they want to follow the euro system and all they are doing is presenting foals, trotting them around the triangle, getting a score and say they are doing it the european way. Well, in Europe, getting foals inspected is a tweeny, weeny part of the "system" and is considered probably one of the least important parts of the "system".

Yes, I agree that there is alot more to it than the inspections. It just gives you a good breeding guideline and qualified outside opinion , especially with horses that will not be shown. Many breeding mares will not be show horses, so the mare performance tests function to give us an idea of their qualities as riding horses. With Hanoverians, it is not even manditory to have the foals inspected. You can if you want, but it is sort of understood that the winner is "the best foal ON THAT DAY". We all know things can change alot from weanling to maturity. I don't know any breeders that base much on the foal at weaning age though, to be honest.

I guess what I am saying is, if your mare is not up to the Verband's standard s in terms of her qualities, it is UNLIKELY she will produce offspring that are. You have to go with probabilities because it's enough of a crapshoot even with two exceptional horses. If the mare is not up to par, instead of breeding her and hoping all of the stallion will come through (which we all know is HIGHLY unlikely), why not find her another job? Why do we have to breed every mare? And to breed her just in case she does WAY outproduce herself may be ok in terms of one test breeding, but if you are going to ignore the look of the foal and wait till it is 4 to see what happens, that is ALOT of waiting and low probabilities just to get a foal from a not so great mare. What for? Find it another job as far as I am concerned.

In regards to the training...I also agree. That is such an excellent piont. NA is so short on good young horse trainers that SPECIALIZE in this kind of training. It is so well respected in Europe because it is so important. When we went to send one of our youngsters out last year, it took months to find anyone acceptable to put 4 months on her, the waiting list was so long.

I decided this year to put grad/vet school on hold and focus on training within this catagory. I want to do a working student with someone who focus's on young horses. And I will assure you, they are FEW AND FAR between when I started looking at ws positions. I think this may be because of our tendancy to think that one must ride and show at GP before they are really good and capable trainers. I know one German lady on another board told me that Ulf Moller never rides FEI tests and yet I think many Germans would consider him one of their top riders. So it is just a different mentality that way I guess.

eurofoal

Nov. 2, 2007, 09:42 PM

Well, I actually own a Weltmeyer (Vosmaer) daughter, and bred her twice to Rubignon (rubinstein/donnerhall) and got two fillies, and now the older filly is in foal to Sagnol (sandro hit/landadel)

So if this is a filly, where should I go now??!!

This foal will be the ultimate Weltvosrubindonnersandrodel !!! In fact, maybe that will be its registered name! Good idea.

Where should you go now? Why, immediately to my house! That breeding sounds like such a terrible, terrible idea that I think you should ship both mares to me immediately, and I will just have to deal with Scott for you. My address is....

tri

Nov. 2, 2007, 10:02 PM

Donella

Nov. 3, 2007, 01:46 AM

But that is NOT the goal: to produce mares that live up to a Verband's standard in terms of her qualities. The GOAL is to produce outstanding performance horses

But they are exactly the same thing!. In the case I am talking about, Hanoverians have been number one with the WFSHB for years and are the only registry to have been number one in both jumping and dressage. The breeding goal is performance and the inspection is a big part of the method.

And no, I wouldn't cull a mare because her full siblings aren't successful in the show ring because there are too many variables. Many well bred mares go the breeding route, people don't want to have their broodies competing because they want them having babies (hence the mare performance test, which gives us a good idea of what her talents are). I suppose if the siblings are showing and are doing bad, then that is another matter.

All I am saying here is that there is a very strong correlation between a mare that lives up to very high breed standards in terms of performance and type and its ability to produce that when bred to a good stallion. No, it doesnt always happen, but there is a very strong correlation and that is the premise that underlines animal genetics.

I think people post inspection results because those interested in the mares offspring would like to know what the worlds leading sport horse experts think about their product. I know I would like to know. It's just another way by which we can assess the quality. I put WAY more stock in what Dr Christmann has to say about a horse than what, well, alot of other people have to say.

And if you dont, then clearly, you are in that catagory of people that either cannot except criticism OR you are foolish enough to think that America doesn't need any help or advice on breeding world class sport horses from a source that has been doing it successfully for decades. The shouldn't be shame in learning from people who have alot to offer, that is the way I have it pegged.

tom

Nov. 3, 2007, 05:00 AM

In the case I am talking about, Hanoverians have been number one with the WFSHB for years and are the only registry to have been number one in both jumping and dressage.

The KWPN has been the top ranked studbook for dressage and showjumping on a number of occasions.

DownYonder

Nov. 3, 2007, 06:35 AM

"I'm not sure I know ANY breeders who think foal inspections are the end-all, be-all, of warmblood breeding. "

Oh yeah, this is evidenced by the number of breeders who put inspections scores down when asked to list "performance results" in any number of stallion directories, etc.

"I guess what I am saying is, if your mare is not up to the Verband's standard s in terms of her qualities, it is UNLIKELY she will produce offspring that are."

But that is NOT the goal: to produce mares that live up to a Verband's standard in terms of her qualities. The GOAL is to produce outstanding performance horses. So how many breeders out there choose a mare, not because she "lives up to a Verband's standard" but choose a mare because she has full siblings that have competed successfully at the highest level of sport? How many will CULL their mare because she has full siblings that DON'T compete successfully? That is what I'm staying. It is almost relatively easy to get high inspection scores: in other words, it is fairly easy to "live up to a Verband's standard" but "living up to a verband's standard" doesn't mean the mare is tops in international quality in the show ring.

You couldn't buy those mares and America isn't producing/tracking/recognizing those mares because our system is fractured with no real incentive for a euro-oriented registries with #1 interests in promoting the home country's mare base for export to recognize & promote those mares based in our country.

As I said, it is very difficult for breeders to keep track of horses they produce. Unless they are lucky enough to sell to owners who keep them updated, they just don't have the tools to follow the performance careers of their horses.

Also, Kathy, haven't you been a huge proponent over the years of using our TB mare base? Aren't you the one who has bad-mouthed the European registries for trying to sell their WB mares to North America and not encouraging the use of TB mares in our breeding programs? How many TB mares have a family performance record in a sport horse discipline? If we are supposed to cull mares from our breeding programs with no family performance record in our chosen sport, then only eventing breeders would ever use a TB mare.

pwynnnorman

Nov. 3, 2007, 08:08 AM

ise@ssl

Nov. 3, 2007, 09:37 AM

Financially very few people can afford to just pay high stud fees, present their foals for inspection and just let them sit around doing nothing after that. Unless they have a huge other source of income, a very very big farm and lots of time to care for these animals - it just doesn't happen.

Perhaps the author of the article should have presented all the tracking on the mares in the program he managed for a very long time. Surely with all the stallions he managed and foals produced out of many top mares - including some TB's - there should be a great deal of bloodline information gathered that he could share as an example of what worked and what didn't.

We track all of our horses and we also take a good look at the bloodlines of horses in competition - problem is that it's not provided in many programs and often completely missing from HOY and other award programs. Is the information KNOWN - probably but the current number system is so flawed - missing information occurs far too often.

Cartier

Nov. 3, 2007, 10:11 AM

It seems we spend a lot time with generalities, which are great and all, but we’d love some specifics. For example, I’ve heard it quoted that the author has produced 25 GP horses. That is a remarkable success rate, one we’d all be proud to claim. Heck even half that number would be amazing. We’d love to hear specifics about what breeding crosses worked for the author... and details about how these foals were started... and how they progressed through competition, what training methods worked, what competition venues were most accommodating... and where are they now. Those kinds of facts would be of great interest to us.

YankeeLawyer

Nov. 3, 2007, 11:01 AM

How many TB mares have a family performance record in a sport horse discipline? If we are supposed to cull mares from our breeding programs with no family performance record in our chosen sport, then only eventing breeders would ever use a TB mare.

Tri was not referring simply to *a* performance record, but a record of success at the highest levels of sport. Personally, I haven't seen too many sisters of Brentina or Matine available for sale lately, at any price, and even if they were, they might not be good producers.

Further, in Europe at least, the top mares go to the breeding shed as career broodies. If a mare has no siblings or only female siblings, it really means little if there is no record of upper level success among hr sibs. Plus, since I think we all agree that pedigree alone does not win medals, the lack of upper level wins does not mean the horses were not capable of that. They may not have been in the hands of someone with the money, time, talent, inclination, and access to top trainers to reach that level.

Also, full siblings can be very different from eachother. To take an example, should someone have culled Poetin from the breeding shed because none of her siblings exhibited gaits that rivalled hers (setting aside for the moment that poor Poetin was laminitic and may have had other issues going on). That would be absurd. I absolutely do consider what a mare's siblings, and offspring (if any) have done in determining whether I want to breed her. But that is just some information, to be considered along with other information about the horse, that must be weighed, including things like conformation, temperament, rideability, work ethic, etc.

Regarding inspections -- again, they provide some information -- mainly, predicters of future aptitude. Some may not live up to their early promise, and some may exceed expectations. If nothing else, I think they provide an ecellent opportunity to see what other breeders are producing and how your horses compare. I do not think that what the inspectors say is gospel, and these events are not always apolitical. In addition, although my goals are not always the same as the Verband's (at a recent inspection, for example, jumper pedigrees were heavily favored and anything VERY leggy and extremely tall was highly prized, even when other attributes were things I would not tolerate in my barn), they often are aligned with theirs. People like Dr. Christmann are very knowledgeable and it is very interesting to hear their thoughts. But also bear in mind they are seeing the horse for one day -- maybe 15 minutes -- of the horse's life, and that snapshot also may be at a growth stage that is not the most flattering to the horse.

Regarding people mentioning their horse's inspection results -- I have no idea what else one could say about a youngster under the age of 3, other than perhaps mention some in-hand show results. And without a comprehensive tracking system many breeders can't accurately track what their babies do after they are sold.

Finally, I don't think we suffer from a real lack of quality in the horses we produce in this country. I do think we suffer primarily from a lack of quality training and riding. I see a number of super horses not really doing much because they are not in the right hands. And you know what? That is okay too. The ones I have in mind are a great source of joy to their owners, and their owners aren't particularly interested in winning medals. I would love to produce a horse that is internationally competitive. But if mine end up in good homes where they are well loved, I think that is a success also.

YankeeLawyer

Nov. 3, 2007, 11:05 AM

Gotta cut through the bunk.

Bull on that "breeders use more than inspection scores" assumption. I'd bet you that a huge number of "breeders" stop right there when it comes to their babies and broodies. That's what Hassler was implying, too, I think. To to many, that score is the END, not the means. The babies just proceed to sit around, getting pictures taken and bragged about...and not sold...and then bred and let the cycle begin again. Or they get to rideable ages and get sold on their training (or lack thereof). Between inspection and sale, nothing happens.

If it DID, then izthatrt's post about how few sport ponies (and, as noted in that thread, horses, too) are out there showing in hand and beyond--wouldn't exist.

Too many breeders put no more investment in their stock than a hot stud's fee and an inspection. Putting MORE in, as Hassler implies, would yield MORE information about how to proceed with future breedings...but that isn't what happens much.

And what exactly is one supposed to do with a horse between foal and three years other than teach it to be a good citizen?

I am not interested in in-hand showing, except to the extent it exposes the youngster to different venues and more stimulating environments (which you can also achieve by taking it off the farm to a training barn, local indoor arena, or any number of other places that have more activity than their home pasture). To me the in-hand shows are akin to dog shows, and if I were interested in that I would breed dogs. I would rather put that money towards the horse's training with a good trainer, and future show expenses when the horses are going under saddle.

Regarding Mr. Hassler's record of producing upper level horses -- no doubt he was working with some quality, talented individuals. But what he has that others lack is a superb ability to train these youngsters, so that the good ones do have a chance to reach their potential. The same horses in a different person's hands may not have gone that far.

siegi b.

Nov. 3, 2007, 11:13 AM

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, it's not just the inspection/performance rating of a mare that determines her value as a broodmare.

The KWPN gives predicates to their mares -

Ster - requires excellent conformation and movement
Keur - requires excellent conformation/movement and performance test
Preferent - requires three offspring to get their Ster predicate
Prestatie - requires three offspring to get qualifying scores in the sport (dressage/jumping)

So then all you have to do is look at your Dutch mare's pedigree and you get a pretty good idea of how her female ancestors have produced. In addition, the Dutch as well as the other European registries put great emphasis on their mare lines (very much like the TB folks) and you will hear them mentioned at stallion approvals and other public events. (Remember how Sabine stated that you don't see SH in the motherlines of the approved stallions?).

And this is where Ilona is correct when she states that without good record-keeping by the USEF we will never be in a position where we can track such important information. The reason it's so important? It takes a large part of the risk out of making breeding decisions when you know that a mareline reliably produces good offspring! (I'm oversimplifying somewhat in order to keep this under three pages)

It's beyond all the bickering that goes on about which registry is the best and goes straight to the ability to identify horses and keep appropriate records. I think Scott needs to understand that when he advises American breeders to "breed for the future - think in generations", and helping to rectify this situation is where I think he could be the most helpful for all of us.

Just my opinion....

ise@ssl

Nov. 3, 2007, 11:20 AM

YankeeLawyer

Nov. 3, 2007, 11:28 AM

Well then - why not the case study method- name the horses - their pedigree and the training program that took them from un-started to whatever level. A little about their build and "issues" and how it was handled.

Yankee Lawyer - you stated:
"But what he has that others lack is a superb ability to train these youngsters, so that the good ones do have a chance to reach their potential. The same horses in a different person's hands may not have gone that far. "

Articles about all these youngsters you refer to and how he started them, the training - how far they went in their training and performance and reasons why they did or did not reach certain levels would be more important than generalizations about "breeding for the future".

Absolutely, I agree!! And I would love to read articles like that. I also would love to see photos and video footage of these successful horses as youngsters -- ideally, from foal to 3 years. I have access to plenty of pictures of foals, and can go to plenty of inspections and see which ones they predict will go on to do well. But it would nice to be able to analyze the babies with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, particularly in the case of the lines that are known to be slow to mature and might not be as impressive as wee ones.

By the way, there is a book that I love by Pippa Funnell (British international eventer) that is written in pretty much of a case study format, and some of the pics in there are quite stunning in terms of the horse she started with and where it ended up (the before and afters).

pwynnnorman

Nov. 3, 2007, 11:32 AM

Perhaps the author of the article should have presented all the tracking on the mares in the program he managed for a very long time. Surely with all the stallions he managed and foals produced out of many top mares - including some TB's - there should be a great deal of bloodline information gathered that he could share as an example of what worked and what didn't.

Good point! That would have been really enlightening.

As to what else can be done other than hot stud and inspections (and I appreciate the point made about the other information provided by KWPN--that does indeed provide a useful service beyond the paperwork), y'know how I think about it? As a "catalog page."

Has everyone here seen a catalog page from a racing sale? It provides descriptive, pedigree, progeny (where applicable) and performance information--and a good catalog page (one that has lots of impressive stuff to say) is...well, a good thing. Moreover, most of the text on a catalog page actually discusses the broodmare lines--what they did at the track, what they produced, what their produce produced, etc.

When I started having to breed to outside stallions, after so many years of breeding to just my own, I decided I'd make decisions based on what would be the progeny's "catalog page." I wanted to build a pony with an impressive catalog page. So I wanted a stallion with a lot to be said about his record and/or the record of his progeny, plus lots of recognizable names on the pedigree. And I wanted to be able to show not only the dam, but the dam's dam and the dam's siblings and what they'd done and produced and with whom.

I think a "catalog page" mindset is a good way of thinking about breeding--and maybe a good exercise for every breeder to put down on paper. It certainly helps SELL in a succinct yet highly informative way--the racing industry has proven that many times over.

The next thing needed, of course, are electronic catalog pages--now there's a goal for the conscientious! I've seen Arabian breeders' websites with something similar--and a few Welsh, too-where you could see all the relatives and their records and click on a name to see a picture and sometimes even click on a show result and see a video. Way cool stuff...but that's an operational thing. I brought up catalog pages more as conceptual ways to built a baby than operational ways to sell one, actually. Alas, the weakness is in type and temperament--stuff that can't be assessed by mere words on a page. The electronic version--with visuals--might represent that idea, but it still couldn't replace walking out to the barn and looking at the beasties in the flesh, of course.

Then again, if one sought to develop the ultimate catalog page--both in the flesh: the baby itself, and on the page--collecting images of the baby, siblings, dam, produce, sire, etc, etc. is sure one great laundry list for doing your homework thoroughly, isn't it? (I'm convincing myself of something: I've always hated my sales pages--the ones presenting each animal individually. Now I've got myself thinking that maybe I should format those pages as electronic catalog pages, so all the pictures and connections to others are easy to see and--most imporantly--are actually [I]there. Hmmmm...)

YankeeLawyer

Nov. 3, 2007, 11:49 AM

(Remember how Sabine stated that you don't see S or H in the motherlines of the approved stallions?).

By H, who are you / Sabine referring to?

siegi b.

Nov. 3, 2007, 01:18 PM

My mistake, Yankeelawyer..... should have read SH, not S or H. Sorry.

vineyridge

Nov. 3, 2007, 02:33 PM

If y'all would be interested in seeing a very abbreviated sales catalog page for a famous TB race mare, take a look at this.
http://www.fasigtipton.com/catalogs/2007/1104/133.pdf

All they show is a very abbreviated statistical description of the sire, the mare's mother, the mare's mother's mother, and the mare's own race record.
Since she is from such a line of producing mares they only went back two generations.

Some of the sales pages go back 4 generations if there isn't much to brag about.

You can buy a full 5 generation sales catalog page from the JC or Brisnet, still with only the tail female line--mother to daughter--for $16 dollars or so, and it's now in PDF/pedigree query style format.

Oldenburg Mom

Nov. 3, 2007, 09:31 PM

Sorry, I don't buy that in-hand shows are just beauty pagents. And BTW, YL, this isn't a reply to just you. You aren't the only one that thinks that way. But I really take objection to those that think they are just beauty pagents.

Maybe that's appropriate for the Hunter breed shows, and my former trainer used to think so. But for those who compete at the DSHB shows--they know, the competition is tough (at least on the east coast.). Try qualifying for the finals at any of the east coast shows...and there are about seven. Try competing against 34, 28, 15, entries at a show like Devon. What do you think's in the ring? Crap? Even the VADA/NoVa show in June 2007 (Morven) there were 21 fillies of 2007 (that actually competed.) Heck there were 20 in the 2 year old class. You think the judges are just giving away 86%? The top colt yearling at that show was an 82.7% The bottom of that class was 66.6% Heck, there was a 79% that came in 6th! I'm really proud of my 76% that I got this summer. Not because I won the class ... and there were only THREE in the class. No, it was that I'd been in front of the judge before ... and knew SHE was tough.

Competing against people like Maryanna Haymon, Emmett Turner, Angela Barilar --especially in my case, when I only have one baby I've ever actually bred myself--well, it's not easy. The only thing that makes is bearable is the people ... I don't like to lose, but I surely don't mind losing to anyone of those three. They are fine breeders, and fine individuals that are putting their hearts and souls and pocketbooks into trying to breed excellence.

Plus, while I don't see ALL the names I've competed against under saddle, I see quite a few: Rockport, Zulft, Cabana Boy, Froelich, Hallelujah, just to name a few.

Again, I say, it's the competition that's going to tell you where you are and how you're doing. SAYING you've got this, or that, well, that's the easy part. Showing up at the inspection, doing the best you can to show off what you believe in and what you've paid your money for (stud-fee wise) and then taking the lumps along with the ribbons. That's the stuff that separates the men from the boys.

JMHO, but most of you know how much I support the DSHB shows. And it sure isn't because I've got a wall of firsts. No, no and no.

YankeeLawyer

Nov. 3, 2007, 09:58 PM

Omom, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. When you can demonstrate a correlation between breed show results and upper level performance results, I might reconsider my opinion. But other than Cabana Boy and a scant few others, there have not been horses that really have successfully made the transition. I do think they can be valuable for giving a horse exposure to different environments, an experience that should be part of a youngster's program. But I also think that you can get the same training benefits in other ways, as I said.

I never suggested that the horses there were "crap," not by a longshot. I just don't need breed scores to tell me what I have (or don't have), and I don't think that success at these shows necessarily is a predictor of future performance. I most certainly would put the thousands of dollars some spend on campaigning at these to a different use in my horse's program. If breeding and selling babies were my primary concern, I might feel differently. The people you mentioned are well-respected *breeders." It is a little hard to successfully market multiple foals a year unless you get out and about.

And kindly do not ever compare me to your former "trainer."

Fairview Horse Center

Nov. 3, 2007, 11:07 PM

Omom, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. When you can demonstrate a correlation between breed show results and upper level performance results, I might reconsider my opinion. But other than Cabana Boy and a scant few others, there have not been horses that really have successfully made the transition.

We had a thread not too long ago about successful breed show horses competing at a high level and MANY were named. Just off the few that I have bred to, West Coast and Walldorf were Breed Show Grand Champions, won their class at Devon. They competed very sucessfully at 4th and Prix StGeorge. Idocus also was GC at Devon, and went on to the Olympics.

I just don't need breed scores to tell me what I have (or don't have), and I don't think that success at these shows necessarily is a predictor of future performance.

Given the choice between Breed Show success and Inspection success, I would choose open competition at a breed show any day as an honest, less political evaluation of gaits and conformation. I personally don't need either to tell me what I have, but they are BOTH a good place to learn, and develop an eye.

They are not good predictors of future performance, but they are good predictors of TALENT. Whether the talent finds its way to a rider that can take that horse to the top is a path with MANY curves along the way.

YankeeLawyer

Nov. 3, 2007, 11:46 PM

Given the choice between Breed Show success and Inspection success, I would choose open competition at a breed show any day as an honest, less political evaluation of gaits and conformation. I personally don't need either to tell me what I have, but they are BOTH a good place to learn, and develop an eye.

I agree with that, Fairview, absolutely. I am not that impressed by inspection results, either, but I like to see what others are producing and I don't spend thousands campaigning my horse in hand to do so.

I just can't put that much stock in the results of a competition that don't even score the canter, which is the most important gait at the upper levels.

Further, I am quite certain the top ones would have done just as well without ever attending an in-hand competition. My main point was that I don't think it is worth it to invest in those shows when the money can be more effectively utilized by hiring a good trainer for the horse to get it going and competing under saddle.

Fairview Horse Center

Nov. 3, 2007, 11:56 PM

I don't invest money to show in hand to promote any individual horse. I invest that money to promote ME. It is a great way for a small breeder to show the quality of the stock they are producing against some of the top youngsters in the country, with a pretty level playing field. Later, those with deep pockets, and in house trainers are going to have a huge edge, that I just can't keep up with.

Oldenburg Mom

Nov. 4, 2007, 08:40 AM

Given the choice between Breed Show success and Inspection success, I would choose open competition at a breed show any day as an honest, less political evaluation of gaits and conformation.

Yes, especially at Devon, where you have multiple international judges. Those test results are SOOOO valuable. ;) I think you and I are on the same page, D.

Pronzini

Nov. 4, 2007, 08:53 AM

If y'all would be interested in seeing a very abbreviated sales catalog page for a famous TB race mare, take a look at this.
http://www.fasigtipton.com/catalogs/2007/1104/133.pdf

Actually QH folks have a similar layout for their showhorses as well. Here's an example from the upcoming World Show.

http://www.horseauctions.com/2007/2083/320.pdf

vineyridge

Nov. 4, 2007, 09:14 AM

Thank you, Pronzini.

That format would be so helpful for sport horses.

Anyone know what a European sales catalog page looks like for the Verbands?

pwynnnorman

Nov. 4, 2007, 02:41 PM

The catalog page certainly gives credit where credit is due in an easy-to-read way, doesn't it? There's a place for everything, but the bottom line (dams) are really what is emphasized in the format.

Fairview Horse Center

Nov. 4, 2007, 05:59 PM

The catalog page certainly gives credit where credit is due in an easy-to-read way, doesn't it? There's a place for everything, but the bottom line (dams) are really what is emphasized in the format.

This is Not to discount the importance of the dams in any way - especially in the US for Sporthorse breeding when a mare may put as many offspring on the ground as a stallion.

BUT,
Don't you think the JC format is mostly due to the fact that Stallion information is commonly available and known, so not needed to be included on the page? It leaves more room for the lesser known, harder to find information on the mare line.

YankeeLawyer

Nov. 4, 2007, 06:40 PM

BUT,
Don't you think the JC format is mostly due to the fact that Stallion information is commonly available and known, so not needed to be included on the page? It leaves more room for the lesser known, harder to find information on the mare line.

I think that is a very astute comment and likely exactly the reason the catalog page is formatted in that way.

I could name a few superstar broodmares that are proven producers of a number of outstanding offspring, but I can guarantee that the mares are not household names in the way the sires are.

pwynnnorman

Nov. 5, 2007, 07:25 AM

Sure, but I wasn't thinking about how it came about. I was just thinking about how useful I've found it--it helps ME think and make decisions. I want to create a baby with a really, really impressive catalog page, so-to-speak, and the attention given to dams helps me remember how important it is to build my mares' resumes as producers, doing what it takes to get their babies out there and to keep track of their babies (and try to keep good relations with their owners, etc.) for the future.

Peg

Nov. 5, 2007, 08:32 AM

The catalogue page in the Hannoveraner stallion auction has listed the mare and her scores, which are very important. An earlier poster commented about how that sales catalogue(also on the website for evaluation with video in most cases)website info is very important and much info is there for all to see. I have to agree, however, with the difficulty of finding that info in this country, and I will bring suggestions to the board/committees about this. There have been many insightful opinions here. Remember that Euro countries are much smaller, the industry much more organized, with a tradition behind it. There are those who CAN know a mare form another part of their country, site their successful, and at times, unsuccessful offspring. That is their business, not their past time. Showing in hand is a way that some of the best are rewarded in a crowded market. I show in hand for my purposes also. I enjoy it and find it insightful, as OMOM and Fairview do. In can be an indicator of talent and I can only hope that my young ones move forward to a successful riding or breeding career. I pride myself on having quality young stock and venues, like Devon, which love for the competition and learning possibilites, are great for small breeders and large alike. At the risk of a sound flaming, the horse business in this country is one of the wealthy. It is very expensive and those of us who are trying to compete with those large farms find Devon a great leveling ground. If all of the info that we were able to garner was from the larger farms, we would have a lopsided view. Which brings me to another point. The small breeder feeds the larger stallion brokers in Germany. They buy the foals at a very good price and put them out into a field until they are nearly 2 , then bring them in for evaluation, prep the best for licensing, and the rest for private sale or auctions. Their mares compete in shows that carry great weight nationally. Our stallion selections (AHS)are based upon having Verband/AHS officials visit the farm pre-licensing and or in-hand showing. We do very little for our mares. Once they are inpection champions, where are they? What have they done? A few breeders show in hand, and the MAHB has held shows for stock. I think they are even open shows, and I am embarrassed to say I haven't taken part in those( but that will be changing).We come back to the original post question- where do we find info on our horses once they are here ( if imported warmbloods). USDF and USEF are trying to come up with statistics and info, but this is only relevant for those who are competing. Stallions get rankings dependant on those showing, which is good, Breeders get rankings, which is good. But the poor mare.....! Should we as warmblood breeders be collecting more of a marebase that can be used, like the JC? Peg